Show Notes
Interview: We talk to
Dave Dastmalchian and
John Hoogenakker about a special moment with
F. Murray Abraham, finding friendship in a cutthroat environment, having substance abuse and authority issues, mind-f***ery, the cloistered nature of conservatories, using skills gained at TTS on set, taking an eclectic approach to acting, the tricky dance of teaching an art form,
PR Casting,
Does a Tiger Wear a Necktie, when
William Burroughs discovered a copy of the Fledgling Press, a zine which Dave created.
FULL TRANSCRIPT: (unedited):
1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school
2 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
1 (14s):
He didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
2 (21s):
I survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (31s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. What's up? How you doing? Please answer that question, even though I can't hear you. I like to imagine everyone checking in, even if it's just mentally, I for 1:00 AM surviving, but I did not want to come back from my vacation. I had a great vacation. I'll be talking all about it in the next episode, but I, I didn't want to come back and, you know, and it's because I went on vacation that we are not airing a brand new episode this week, but instead we were looking back at a previous episode, I'm going to say it's a hidden gem. Not that nobody listened to it, but that I don't know that it totally got the, quite the play that it should have.
1 (1m 19s):
It's a great conversation with two fantastic actors. The second reason is they both have so much going on right now, Dave in particular, you know, he just came off of dune and suicide squad. He's got a bunch of other things in production right now, including things that he's written. I don't know what is public knowledge or whatever. So I'll just leave it out. He's got a lot of stuff going on. And John is in every commercial I read, literally I feel he is in all of the commercials. So he's very busy with his life and his career. And also he was in dope sick, which if you haven't seen it, you really should.
1 (1m 60s):
It, it, it is both an excellent and well-made P piece of television as well as an important piece of television. Those Sackler people, man, fuck those guys. Disgusting. Anyway, they were delightful. We could have talked for two hours. Maybe one day we'll get a chance to do a part two, but I just thought it would be nice to take a look back. I am not including the first part of the episode, the, our usual intro. And let me run this by you because it's pretty old at this point. But if you want to listen to that, the original episode is still up as this.
1 (2m 43s):
Anyway, please enjoy our conversation with David, a small shin and John who can anchor.
3 (2m 49s):
You got to call her up again and ask her to do
1 (2m 53s):
All right. I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you. Yeah.
4 (3m 16s):
I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience like together as well as apart, but like my first question for you is did you love each other right away?
5 (3m 32s):
I don't, I don't know John did you?
3 (3m 36s):
Well,
5 (3m 39s):
I've known Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. So I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gina were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place and it was hard to come into cause it's such a competitive environment and it's such a intense environment and I was both competitive and intense.
5 (4m 26s):
So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard because you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection. You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable, I'm a cuddler sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw.
5 (5m 6s):
Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.
3 (5m 26s):
No, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and I Aisha and a snuggling ghanaba you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys, but yeah, we, jeez. I just remember, I remember Dave's it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, such a driving in Dave's career is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity and he's constantly pumping that into the world.
3 (6m 8s):
And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. And I think I was drawn to that in Dave. Yeah. From the giddy-up
1 (6m 20s):
You also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that, stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?
3 (6m 32s):
I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, there was, so it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really enjoyed and appreciated.
3 (7m 18s):
And yeah. And so I think that was, that was, it was, it was Dave's his, his sort of genuine vibe that I was
4 (7m 30s):
Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ag ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, star struck. I, but when I, but there is this sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, I don't know. I'm just so glad that you guys found each other and that your friends, like, you know, that's how I feel
5 (8m 15s):
The work and outside of our mutual passionate love for the theater, acting, film, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. And obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff. But, you know, I've been through the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school.
5 (9m 2s):
You're taught that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal, and it felt like kind of during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, and, and it was, it was, I'm very grateful and in many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we need, we're kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely fuck-ups.
5 (9m 43s):
We were in trouble a lot because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors. They get in and like help guide us in shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, were going to Chicago. We want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass.
5 (10m 25s):
And we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from Glen Gary, Glen Ross for second year scene study work with Joe . And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're going to, you're going to get in on this heist, or I'm gonna ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide Bob Marley thing. And, and so we had this big, special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study workshop.
5 (11m 6s):
And it was F Murray Abraham. And I'll never forget that we're all so excited. Big fans, we go, they did it at a separate location on campus. And
3 (11m 19s):
It was where it was dramatic,
5 (11m 21s):
I think, where nobody cheated. And he, he goes, he blew through the fees that he was working on so quickly. And he was getting frustrated, like stop with the bullshit, stop with the presentation, like let's work these.
3 (11m 38s):
And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life.
5 (11m 47s):
He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh kind of moment where we could. So we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like, that's a very gray, I'm doing seeds. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes for him to work on.
3 (12m 10s):
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other. Like, that's all I had. And Dave, Dave, you went to,
5 (12m 23s):
Yes. Loic turn to me and John and slow. It goes, you guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it? I was like, yeah, let's do it. We had no prop prepper, everyone. Else's in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with. We, we may do right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece where he was familiar enough with it, that he could kind of jump in and do with this. But I was so proud that day, even though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life.
5 (13m 16s):
And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school. We continue to collaborate. I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my acting life.
3 (13m 28s):
I wouldn't, I want to jump in because that was such a, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. So, so I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamieson, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanction. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene. And I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us.
3 (14m 13s):
So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was given to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of smacked him. And he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity.
3 (14m 54s):
Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation and preparation
5 (15m 12s):
Now, mother fuckers.
1 (15m 13s):
Yeah. I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about, as you look back at this time in your life now, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this?
1 (16m 9s):
How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind? Fuck. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view
4 (16m 19s):
A caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So I, and, and I, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so I just always am really hyper aware that like, we want to say whatever you want. That's what I want to say.
5 (16m 39s):
Whatever The Vince rather it's called in the legal team, man, there, You're talking to John and Jane, don't worry.
4 (16m 57s):
Go for it. What's it
5 (16m 58s):
All about you go first because I know.
3 (17m 1s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery here. No, first of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I, I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys attended. And that said, I don't feel like the mind fuckery that I felt I was, that I received was the result of some jerk ass cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we book?
3 (17m 43s):
Who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point, it was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was at that time intensely cloistered didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. I had competed in debate. So I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school.
3 (18m 30s):
My family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Th that's just, let's just call that an opening, Sally and Dave, you can share it.
5 (19m 12s):
I felt like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated complex filled with nuance, lots of gray area. It came from a tradition steeped in some really important and impressive theater movements that were more militaristic and disciplinary and really intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, save me on an almost daily basis on sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations was really important.
5 (19m 57s):
I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the , here's the belly. Can we, here's the David app, Callaway, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business.
5 (20m 37s):
And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to mental with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power in there. It's
3 (21m 3s):
Unbelievable when you look back on it.
5 (21m 6s):
When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced, tearing sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I, I hope they'll watch. And I also think that, that there was some abusive behavior that I'll never understand other than they were human beings, who, you know, who were just people that were, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time.
5 (21m 58s):
And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of tears of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful, cause I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is w I really go, wow, that was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happened that I can't believe happened, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working on.
3 (22m 47s):
I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned as an actor. And I'm talking about like technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with.
3 (23m 27s):
So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. And there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child for the realities and the emotional rigors of, of what could end up being a career and a full life doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child.
3 (24m 14s):
And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. And, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, ah, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week, and some people are become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then were kept on after the first year, after the second year.
3 (24m 55s):
And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell you that. I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to bridges, kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and his being like, you know, some of you will graduate.
3 (25m 46s):
Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year. And then the remaining are going to get cut. The second year. That to me was like deeply ingenuous disingenuous because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation.
3 (26m 35s):
And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. We did an intro in second year, lot called laughing wild. And it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight every night, fucking crazy.
3 (27m 23s):
And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said, Jason Pierce had really long hair. Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was hunter Andre. And it was kind of like the Elko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our hair cut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess, you know, because
4 (27m 59s):
Totally. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it thinks that, so I guess the bigger question here for me, and I don't know what you guys think, but th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal life, right.
4 (28m 44s):
At 17 with hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but whatever.
5 (28m 50s):
I mean, I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's, it's, it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair.
5 (29m 32s):
As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question because I do think like, right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a damn Hollywood audition until they're 18. And, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18.
5 (30m 12s):
But yeah. And it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.
3 (30m 18s):
I will say that. I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with Kevin Goodall, Lisa DOB, the Dodson, Greg Minkler, Brad, Armacost all these amazing classic classic Chicago actors, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, it was the first show in the, in their new space. So they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started.
3 (31m 9s):
And that was when I saw like these Titans kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah. I went for another one at PR I didn't get it, but it went to blah-blah-blah and he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kinda like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college.
3 (31m 59s):
If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals. Yeah.
1 (32m 18s):
Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a, for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did,
5 (32m 46s):
For me it was, it was, it was the, it was fate. It was, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was a, it was like a miracle of God. And, and to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. But I was really excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school.
5 (33m 26s):
And I didn't see the path towards the academic dreams that I had for college in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of, of applying to like arts programs or theater, or following a track and drama and hearing that was mind blowing.
5 (34m 25s):
And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately drove up to Chicago. And my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie?
5 (35m 5s):
And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete, and I knew the demands of that. And that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. And I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been this, this, this huge scholarship called the Stanley and good
3 (35m 44s):
For you, Dave, we're all happy for you.
5 (35m 49s):
That's my story. That's my story. I'm done as John, just finish the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of debt as well, because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to go
3 (36m 8s):
Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.
5 (36m 13s):
<em></em> what was her landlord's name? What was this?
3 (36m 25s):
The place? It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources by like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, the deck collapsed. Right.
5 (36m 36s):
Very close there. Yeah. Remember this space, time tanks, John, the floating. Can we go do that together? Once the tanks, the, that the deprivation, the sensory. Oh yeah. Anyway, right there.
3 (36m 51s):
One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for,
5 (36m 54s):
Thanks for shitting.
3 (36m 57s):
So happy. That'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Good for you. I didn't get a scholarship. I, no, we no. So I totally very similar story, except I was not going to be an athlete ever. I was in, I was in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, because I got braces. And my dad who was a local actor in Charlotte was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave?
5 (37m 44s):
Yeah.
3 (37m 46s):
And, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to senior year, the drama teacher and I had never taken drama at the theater at the high school, you know, she would, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools to see where you can study. And we, I looked into like a Julliard. I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there.
3 (38m 29s):
And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife auditioned at, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. And I, I came in like late January, early February and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned into this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable.
3 (39m 11s):
And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, and I did, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, going to be probably like, does a tire tiger wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the locate for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck.
3 (39m 51s):
And, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. And then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe. And maybe John and possibly bill brown. And, and I left completely dejected. And I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. You know, having,
4 (40m 16s):
I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't know. I think I bombed, but no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that shit.
3 (40m 36s):
Well, that's, you know, I that's so indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and Bailey good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go. Places said no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, but yeah, so we left and I've forgotten my watch. Cause you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. And so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch?
3 (41m 22s):
Cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, oh, well he bombed it. He didn't feel very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you. We're sending out a couple, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And yeah, it was, it was really, really great.
3 (42m 2s):
But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for. Cause if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state or community college in Charlotte. Cause I mean, I had, I had, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted universities in my home state.
1 (42m 27s):
So according to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Yeah, yeah. Right. Was it the blues and Peter pan?
3 (42m 39s):
Peter pan?
5 (42m 41s):
We did the, we did the Glen Gary Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. We worked together doing that outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something.
5 (43m 26s):
So yeah, but while we were those first four years and then in the year, since we've done three things together, probably your four
1 (43m 34s):
Teacher was amazing.
5 (43m 36s):
Teacher was a good, thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when we got John. It's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got and John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up.
5 (44m 25s):
It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level with just which the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as shit he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene. I've probably gone back to more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend on stage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff.
5 (45m 11s):
And, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John,
3 (45m 16s):
I feel the same way about you, man. You, I gotta say Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And I think it's less than 7% of people who, who have been where you were ever come back. And so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry is just absolutely astounding.
3 (45m 59s):
And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship while being, you know, a partner and a father is I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for advice
5 (46m 27s):
Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so always thank God for the theater school because of John Hogan, Akron, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation.
5 (47m 13s):
She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I'm so grateful as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed. She was a needed angel at the time for me in a dark place and bridges. I mean, I know he wasn't, you know, faculty, he was staff, but that guy recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction.
5 (48m 2s):
And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of him and
3 (48m 12s):
His door was always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I believe he attended mine down in Alabama and Dave's was in California.
5 (48m 22s):
Yeah, he's he, he was he for all of his shit giving and making fun of, and, and sideways remarks. There was underneath that, this deep concern and love for the students that when I needed it, most was there for me in his is a dear and close personal friend to this day. Oh, I'm all over the place. Now guys, my brain is spinning the coffees. It did. I'm getting emotional. But I'm thinking too about like you talked about when we first did plays together and I'm just having all these flashbacks of me and John, like I smoked cigarettes. John did, did not, but we would go out back sometimes when we were at like on the fire escape at the, at the, at the victory gardens where we were doing, I got to blues and we'd we talk about this stuff.
5 (49m 13s):
It's like, I just doing the shows was actually you're right. That was probably the best education we ever got was just doing the,
3 (49m 20s):
And you can hear it in Dave now, like some of the exuberance, but he was this guy when we would go back and we would be out back and you know, he'd be smoking and be talking about Johnny. I love you, brother. I'll tell you what, man, we're going to fucking do this shit. And one day we're gonna be so fucking big. It's all gonna happen, bro. It's all gonna happen. You just can't wait, man. I love you so much. It's gonna be so great. And I would just be like, I just want to survive When he is made, like the dude has made it happen.
4 (49m 53s):
Oh wait, I have a question I have, oh, go, you want to go beans? No, you can go ahead. Okay. I have a question about that because I'm always fascinated by two things. The sh the show quote, showcase experience in Los Angeles for people. I don't know why. I just love that because the stories are, so mine was my saying, I had a run-in with John C. Riley that did not go well.
3 (50m 21s):
I know a few, one negative interaction with John C. Riley
4 (50m 24s):
And I had it. I had it. And then also resilience. Those are the two things I want to cover before we, before we get out. But my, my question is about that showcase. What the hell was your experience? Like?
5 (50m 38s):
I'll go, mine's quick and easy. I was so strung out by that point. You guys, I was literally scrambling to find methadone clinics in Los Angeles and New York where I could go get doses. So I wouldn't get sick from withdrawals. That, that was the, my top concern. I did a scene with Whitney Snead at the time who was, we were doing this, this, this, this, this really fun horror scene together that I thought would be a good showcase for LA, but I got no interest, no check marks from anybody. And then, and then luckily somebody invited me. I got to go over and, and go to universal studios for the day. And I got to go to Dreamworks, which was cool for a minute, but it was completely unrelated to my audition.
5 (51m 22s):
It was because somebody invited me to go over there. And that was, that was my big, that was my big, that was my big, it was, it was, it was terrible. And I was very close with John at the time, but we, nobody knew. So you guys got to understand, I didn't tell it wasn't like John or my friends. They knew something was wrong with me, but it wasn't like, Hey guys, I got to go score. I was very good at hiding my suffering. And which is what made it was so devastating. I know for John and Kelly and my friends who immediately came, you know, like when I wound up in Kansas, after I bottomed out in Chicago and they would come see me, he was just like, would say things like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I'm like, how could you, I'm that good of an actor?
1 (52m 5s):
Yeah. I lived with them and I didn't know that.
5 (52m 12s):
And that was my, that was my showcase experience.
4 (52m 16s):
Yours and mine. Similar.
1 (52m 19s):
What about yours, Jen? Well,
3 (52m 21s):
Yeah, it was Dennis, Zach and I were seeing partners and we, no, no, no, no. I can't remember. You
1 (52m 29s):
Guys did scenes. We just did monologue monologues,
3 (52m 32s):
Dennis, Zach. And I went later for a separate, for a separate event when we were like young actor. But, but yeah, when, when I got out there, I, you know, I did the thing. I didn't get any, like, there was no love for me. And it was, you know, it was, I mean, it was nerve wracking to do the thing. Cause you just, you're telling yourself at that point, it's like, all right, well, if it doesn't happen here, I'll just pack the pumping gas or, you know, whatever. And Kelly and I had started kind of talking to each other. I had like, literally had seen her outside of the theater school one morning while we were all gearing up for, for showcase and was just admiring her and demographics saw me admiring her.
3 (53m 22s):
And then he got, he did this thing that only Dennis Zach, where he's like, dude, and then Shayna, like around the same time was like, you know, I really liked John and I want him in my life, but I don't want to date him. One of you girls, did she be you Kelly? Cause I think, you know, Ogden was maybe with Lisa at this point, but so somebody by our two close friends had kind of, you know, pushed us in that direction. And by the time we made it to Los Angeles, we went to a house party after, you know, the audition day or whatever the showcase and John C. Riley was at the party, which I remember distinctly thinking was super cool.
3 (54m 12s):
Although the party just felt like, like we had all told ourselves like what LA was
5 (54m 23s):
Up with those Russian girls. Do you remember that at all drug stuff? And I brought like two right guys to that party that didn't even speak English. Do you remember that at all?
3 (54m 34s):
That's hilarious. No. See because Kelly and I were there for like, I'm not joking for like 20 minutes. You go to the hotel and we took off. We were like, this is not, this is whatever, this is gross. I don't want to do this. And so she and the girls had rented a, had rented some convertible and we'd went for a drive to see the Pacific ocean. Cause Kelly had never seen it at that point. And so we're standing there in the dark, overlooking the Pacific ocean and I'm like super like shy when it, you know, when I was dating back in the day and Kelly looked at me and was like, now is when you kiss. And so the best thing for me that came out of the theater school is my relationship with her, you know,
5 (55m 20s):
Chip with me.
1 (55m 22s):
Yes. Well
3 (55m 24s):
It's right here. So I had to
1 (55m 27s):
Talking Dave, talk to me. I always liked her.
5 (55m 32s):
I did a lot of scene work with Kelly. We,
3 (55m 34s):
She's not really right here. You guys can stop. Oh, I really like
5 (55m 38s):
Her. She's the best man.
1 (55m 41s):
So Dave talking about our apartment, brought up a bunch of memories for me that I had forgotten about. And I'll just share one of them with you now that is really touching my heart. So the thing about you is that you always possessed yourself as an artist from, I mean, despite it sounds like you were experiencing a lot of depression and despite problems that you had, you, one of your strengths in my mind has always been a complete, no conflict or ambivalence about being an artist. And you taught that to me. And I never did any type of visual art in my life.
1 (56m 24s):
And so we lived at that apartment and all of a sudden I got into drying and you were so supportive of getting emotional. You were so supportive of me. And, and I remember thinking, oh, I'm an artist too. Oh,
5 (56m 42s):
Thank you for that. I, the nights we would sit up doing like continuous, I was so fascinated. Do you remember? We, we got really into that trip on light, trying to connect our thoughts and connect our creativity together and connect our imaginations together. And I was so, so like into that idea, when we would sit up late at night, we put a fire on sometimes and we'd get the big piece of paper and we do continuous drawings together. You just start working. And we were, there was a creative thing that was going on with us that was so rewarding. And you contributed to the fledgling press, which I still have. We published our own little Xen out of our apartment that I would use the DePaul copy machines to get free prints.
5 (57m 29s):
And then I distribute them all over. Do you remember William Burroughs editor found one? And we got, I got to go down and, and meet burrows and, and all of us people who were like, oh, I don't write. And I was like, well, but, and you didn't know we did. So I'm glad that you have that memory. I think about that stuff often. In fact, I was just, I still have it's right in my filing cabinet right here, all those old fledgling presses. And I was thinking about those days. And I, it's hard when you're a survivor of near, near death addiction and depression, because it's easy to just go. That was that time.
5 (58m 10s):
But we know that it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been what it was if it had. And I'm, there were even in the midst of that abject suffering, which came much later, by the way, it was really into the fourth year. And that God, that year after I graduated, when I, the candle finally like caught up with itself and then I melted, but that stuff was so clutch man. And like the improv group that we would do at Finley's and like playing together, Gina, like I forgot all the musicians come play like their bongos in our living room and Spontaneously create poetry who knows, like it was great.
1 (58m 56s):
We had a party one time and it was so cold outside. And I guess maybe we had no heat that we hung blankets, like in front of our door to try to create warmth. And people came to our party and all they could do is sit down and be under jackets and blazers like 20 degrees inside of that apartment. I mean, we survived and I think the, the resiliency
4 (59m 22s):
And I get, you've talked a little bit, each of you about, you know, maybe the, that you were in, was it, who's a ROTC and that you played sports too. Where does resilience come from that you guys kept keep going? And, and sometimes it's spiritual sometimes, but that I'm fascinated by resilience. So there are so many times in our lives where you each, where all of us could have been like, you know what, Nope, bye. I'm not going to be an artist anymore. I'm going to, or where does your resilience come from? Do you think
3 (59m 51s):
Stubbornness, you know, I it's, it's super hard. And, and I look at my career and I think about that, how lucky I feel that I am and grateful I am that I've been able to cobble it together and to make a living. But, you know, there are times when things are slow. And for me, so much of, so much of your sense of self-worth is tied to your ability to provide or contribute. But I think at the end of the day, it's seeing myself as an artist and as nothing else and being stubborn to the extent that I'm, I'm not, I'm not willing to let that go in the way that I'm not willing to cut off my feet and try to learn to walk again.
3 (1h 0m 45s):
You know, it's just, it's who I am. It's a part of me.
5 (1h 0m 49s):
I, I feel the same. And I know John, you know, express this in John and Kelly met at such a young age, but when I met Eve, it was like, when for the ride, then it's there's years where we're going to make $12,000 this years, we're going to make $2 million this years we're going to make no, you know, it's like, this is, and, and, and, and, and I'm grateful that I've got the partner who goes, of course, or, you know, John gets the call Monday. You have to go to, you know, Quebec to shoot a movie for two months. And Kelly goes, okay, let's figure it out. This Eve does the same for me. So we're very, I have incredible partnership.
5 (1h 1m 30s):
I have the stubbornness, you know, John and I have that shared kind of like, there's no way I don't give it. If I got told 99 times, no, I always believed in my heart that that was getting me one step closer to the yes that I needed. And I always tried to look at every moment and opportunity as, and also I think the gratitude that for me personally, which is different than John, but having survived, nearly dying and coming back my tray, you know, when I got my life back, I said, you know, God, I I'm all I'm going to do for the rest of my life is smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I promise, I, I, if I can have, and if I could just have an apartment and a, and a TV and a VCR, and I worked like regular jobs for a couple of years, I mean, I knew John at that time when I wasn't even acting again.
5 (1h 2m 15s):
And
3 (1h 2m 18s):
Let me tell a story about you quick,
5 (1h 2m 20s):
Because I'm gonna start crying
3 (1h 2m 22s):
When Kelly and I, we had a lot of Dave's belongings. Like we had taken them on board when Dave crashed and had to go home to Kansas.
5 (1h 2m 35s):
I was on the kids aside, but I was right there at the,
3 (1h 2m 41s):
And we were going down there to see him. And we went and we took his stuff and we only got to see him briefly and he was beaten, but he still smiled. And the next time I think we got to see Dave was at Webster place and he was working at Webster place. And what was your job you were doing there at that time?
5 (1h 3m 5s):
Popcorn identify. I was every theater five. Can you clean the popcorn spill and theater five? I was at DePaul theater school graduate with a BFA in, in the polyester pants with the name tag grateful to be making $11 an hour. Yeah.
3 (1h 3m 22s):
And the guys, the, the energy and the positivity you see coming out of dude right now was the same when he was standing there with the little dust pan on the stick and the, and the, and the, you know, popcorn around his feet. Like that was, that was all there. Right then such a powerful, powerful force, man. Thanks.
5 (1h 3m 43s):
The gratitude is just, can't stop. And I'm so grateful for you guys. I'm John, you know, I'm all three of you guys, Jen, you know, you were there cause you knew personally outside of all the theater school stuff. My, my therapist and the, this, the psycho, the counselor who helped me when I was in the mental hospital, Gina and I were there when, when I was a baby and John put my diaper on and cleaned my little bottom and pouted it up. Gratitude is the best is such a great fuel for art. Because even when we go to the darkest places that we have to, you know, inhabit really nasty skins or really creepy characters that you think, how am I gonna, how am I gonna find any love within this?
5 (1h 4m 29s):
I think for anybody to connect with them, love is still, it's so important and it's such an important part of storytelling. And so for me, that, that gratitude it's fuel. So thanks guys. I'm grateful for today for certain.
1 (1h 4m 46s):
What did that, I wouldn't know. I know we have to go, but what did that bring up for you just now,
4 (1h 4m 50s):
Just like the idea that when Gina and I talk about this a lot about the fact that our shame, the things that we think are so shameful and so ugly are the things that connect us to each other in such a deep way that if we can, if we can sort of not deny the fact that we're all connected in this way, especially having gone through theater school and stuff, but even just human beings that we can take the shame and turn it into something beautiful is, is a huge gift.
1 (1h 5m 28s):
Amen.
3 (1h 5m 29s):
Closer for sure.
4 (1h 5m 31s):
Well, thank you guys. This is the greatest thing I'm like now I'm like, wait, wait, our podcast has to be at first. I was like, our podcast is just Dave and John. And then I'm like, okay, that can't be a podcast forever, but I'm going to podcast. <em></em> friends.
1 (1h 5m 55s):
We will have to have you back. We will have to do a part two and three and four, but thank you so much.
4 (1h 6m 3s):
It's totally wonderful. And, and, and everything that you write, you said at the beginning, John, that like the stuff comes back, it comes back. Maybe it's 20 years later, maybe it's 30 years later, maybe it's five minutes. But the things that you two have clearly put out into the world are coming back to you in a way that is just makes you shine. And so shine on. That's all I have to say. You sure.
3 (1h 6m 28s):
Thank you so much. You guys, for allowing us to be here with you together. That's super, super cool.
4 (1h 6m 34s):
Okay. Thank you. Have a good day. Everybody.
1 (1h 6m 40s):
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. Polizzi follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
You got to call her up again and ask her to do all right.
I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you.
Uh, w I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience, like together as well as a part, but like my first question for you is, did you love each other right away?
I don't, I don't know. John, did you
Well, for sure,
Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. Uh, so I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gita were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John, um, was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place. And, um, it was hard to come into because it's such a competitive environment and it's such a, um, intense environment. And I was both competitive and intense. So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard, cause you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection.
You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such, uh, a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable,
I'm a cuddler.
sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw. Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star Wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.
Um, no, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and Iyisha and, uh, snuggling ghanaba, um, you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, uh, jeez, I just remember, uh, I remember Dave's, um, it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think, um, that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, um, such a driving force in Dave's career, um, is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity, and he's constantly pumping that into the world. And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. Um, and I think I was drawn to that in Dave, uh, yeah, from the giddy-up, but
Also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?
Uh, I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I, to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, um, there was so, uh, it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, um, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted, um, positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave, uh, just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really, uh, enjoyed and appreciated. And, um, yeah. And so I think that was, uh, that was, um, it was, it was Dave's, um, his, his sort of genuine vibe that I was
Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ed ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, starstruck, I, but when I, but there is sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, um, I don't know. I'm just so glad you guys found each other and that you're friends. It's like, no, it's not. That's how I feel. Yeah. That's how I feel
The work and outside of our mutual, passionate love for the theater acting film, um, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, um, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. Um, and obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff, but, um, you know, I've been through, uh, the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school you're taught, um, that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of, um, during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, um, and, and it was, it was, um, I'm very grateful, um, and, uh, many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, um, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely ups. We were in trouble a lot, um, because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And, uh, neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors that get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, um, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from, um, uh, Glen Gary, Glen Ross for, um, second year, uh, scene study work with Joe [inaudible]. And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're gonna, you're gonna get in on this heist, or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide by Bob Marley thing. And, um, and so we had to speak special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study, uh, workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And, um, I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus.
And it was where it was history of dramatic lit I think,
where nobody cheated. And he, um, he Through the fees that he was working on so quickly, and he was getting frustrated, like stop with the, stop with the presentation, like w Let's work these.
And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life!
He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh Eve kind of moment where we could, so we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, Whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like "that's F Murray Abraham!"]. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes.
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other, like, well, that's all I had. And that's all I got Dave, you went to
Slowik Turned to me and John and slowok. goes, "You guys!"
You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it here? And John's like, yeah, let's do it.
What else is in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with? Uh, we, we may do, right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups. Um, and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But I
Was so proud that day, even Though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life. And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school, we continue to collaborate. Um, I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life.
Dude, I wanna, I want to jump in because that was such, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. Um, so, so, uh, I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene and I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was giving to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of schmacting him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation.
[inaudible] mother.
I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called Undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about as you look back at this time in your life now, uh, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this? How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view,
I'm just going to add a caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So, um, I, and, and I, um, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so, um, I, I just always am really hyper aware that like we want, um, say whatever you want, that's what I want to say, whatever
The Vincentian Brotehrs called in the legal team, man, they're coming, you're talking to John and Hey, don't worry. You go first because I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery. No. First of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys, uh, attended. Um, and that said, I don't feel like, uh, the mind fuckery that I, um, felt I was, uh, that I received was the result of, uh, some jerk cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we -? You know, who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point. It was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was, uh, at that time intensely cloistered. Um, didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all, uh, to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. Um, I had competed in debate, so I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school. Um, my family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt. Um, and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Um, cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Um, th th that's just, let's just call that an opening, uh, Sally and Dave, you can share it for a little bit,
Like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated, complex filled with nuance. Lots of gray area came from a tradition steeped in some really, uh, important and impressive theater movements that were more, um, militaristic and disciplinary and really, um, intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, saved me on an almost daily basis sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice, and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations, um, was really important. I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the Joe Slowik way. Here's the Bella Itkin way. Here's the David Avcollie way, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, um, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business. And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to, um, mental wellness with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power, um, in there.
It's unbelievable when you look back on it.
When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced and having sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I hope they'll watch. Um, and I also think that, uh, that there was some abusive behavior, um, that I'll never understand other than they were human beings who, um, you know, who were just people that, um, were, uh, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time. And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of, of tears, of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, um, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful because I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is I really go, wow. That was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happen that I can't believe, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working now.
I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not, uh, emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned, uh, as an actor. And I'm talking about like, uh, technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with. So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where, um, you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. Um, and there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child, um, for the realities and the emotional rigors of, uh, of what could end up being a career in a full life, doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child. And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, Oh, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, Oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, uh, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week. And some people are, uh, become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then, um, were kept on after the first year, after the second year. And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell ya, uh, I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear. Um, prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and His being like, you know, some of you will Graduate. Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year and then half the remaining are going to get cut. The second year, that to me was like deeply, uh, ingenuous disingenuous, because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation. And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. Um, we did, uh, an intro in second year, lot called Laughing Wild, and it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight every
This is fucking crazy! Yeah.
And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said Jason Pierce had really long hair. Uh, Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was Hunter, uh, Andre. Um, and it was kind of like Ilko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our haircut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess. Um, you know, cause he's
Totally, no, I mean, I, I think it begs the, so I guess the bigger question here for me and I don't know what you guys think, but, um, th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, um, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And w when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal knife fight at 17 with Hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but that's, that's a big question.
I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, uh, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair. As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question. Cause I do think like right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a Hollywood audition until they're 18. Um, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18. But yeah, it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.
I will say that, you know, I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with, um, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Greg Finkler, Brad Armacost, um, all these amazing, uh, classic classic Chicago actors, um, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, uh, it was the first show in the, in their new space. Um, so they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play. Um, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started. And that was when I saw like these Titans, uh, kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah, I went for another one at PR I didn't get it. Yeah. But it went to blah, blah, blah. And he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends. Um, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college. If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals.
Yeah. Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a conservatory for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did you pick DePaul?
For me, it was, it was, uh, it was the, it was fate. It was, um, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was, it was like a miracle of God. And to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, um, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning, um, academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. Um, but I was really, uh, excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school. And I didn't see the path towards, um, the academic dreams that I had for college, um, in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of applying to like arts programs or theater or following a track and drama and hearing that was mindblowing. And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately up to Chicago and my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did, uh, a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie? And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter, uh, very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete and I knew the demands of that and that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. Um, and I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been given this, um, this, this huge scholarship, uh, called the Stanley and
Good for you, Dave, we're all happy for you.
That's my story. I'm done as John, just going into the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of Debt as well because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to go
Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.
Gina can tell you where we lived on Lill. What was Our landlord's name?
Earl Pionke!
was Lill, the place. It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources? Like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, uh, the deck collapsed right there. Yeah.
And the tanks? remember the Space Time tanks, John. The floating tanks?
what's that?
Didn't we go do that together? The tanks, the, that the, the deprivation. The sensory deprivation ones?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, right there. One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for a, no dude. I'm so happy. So that'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Um, good for you. Um, I didn't get a scholarship. I, uh, no, we, no, I totally very similar story except I was not going to be an athlete, uh, ever. Um, I was in, uh, I was, uh, in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, uh, because I got, um, braces and my dad who was a, a local actor in Charlotte, um, was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, um, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave? Yeah. Um, and, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to, uh, senior year, the drama teacher and I'd never taken drama at the theater at the, uh, high school, you know, she would, uh, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach, uh, Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools, see where you can study. And we, I looked into like, uh, a Julliard I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there. And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife, um, auditioned at, uh, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. Um, and I, uh, I came in like late January, early February, uh, and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house. Um, and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned in to this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable. And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, um, and I did, uh, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, gonna be probably like, does a tire tire wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the location for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done, um, a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck. And, um, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. Um, and then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe, and maybe John and possibly bill Brown. Um, and, uh, and I left completely dejected and I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Um, you know,
So I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't, I think I bombed, But no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that.
Well, that's, you know, I that's so, uh, indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and be able to good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go Places said, no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, uh, but yeah, so we left and I had forgotten my watch. Cause, you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. Um, and, uh, so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch? Um, cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well, uh, thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, Oh, well, he bombed it. He did very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, uh, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you we're sending out a couple, uh, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really great. But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for, because if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state, um, or community college in Charlotte because I mean, I had, I had, uh, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And, uh, didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted, uh, universities in my home state.
According to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Uh, uh, yeah, right. Um, I got the Blues and Peter pan, Peter pan,
The, uh, we did the, um, uh, uh, Glengarry Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. Uh, we worked together, uh, doing that, uh, outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something. So, yeah. But while we were those first four years, and then in the year, since we've done three things together probably or four, yeah,
teacher was amazing. Teacher was a good,
thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when, um, we got John, uh, it's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got. And John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up. It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level, but just which is the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene I've probably gone back to, uh, more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend onstage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff. And, um, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John.
I feel the same way about you, man. You, I got to say, Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, uh, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And, um, I think it's less than 7% of people, uh, who, who have been where you were, uh, ever come back. Um, and so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry, um, is just absolutely astounding. And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and, you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship, um, while being, uh, you know, a partner and a father is, um, I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for advice
Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so I'll always thank God for the theater school because of John Hoogenakker, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time, um, you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation. She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey, um, and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I I'm so grateful, uh, as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed, she was a needed angel at the time for me, um, in a dark place. Um, and bridges, I mean, I know he wasn't, um, you know, uh, faculty, he was staff, but that guy, um, recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction. And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of him
And his door was Always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I believe Danny. Yeah. He attended mine down in Alabama and Dave's was in California.
He's uh, he, he was he for all of his giving and making fun of, and, and sideways remarks. There was underneath that, this deep concern and love for the students that, um, when I needed it, most was there for me in his is a dear and close personal friend to this day. Um, Oh, I'm all over the place. Now guys, my brain is spinning the coffees. It did, I'm getting emotional. But I'm thinking too about, like you talked about when we first did plays together and I'm just having all these flashbacks of me and John, like I smoked cigarettes. John did, did not, but we would go out back sometimes when we were at, um, like on the fire escape at the, at the, at the victory gardens where we were doing, I got to blues and we'd we talk about this stuff. It's like, God, just doing the shows was actually you're right. That was probably the best education we ever got was just doing the work.
You can hear it so you can hear it in Dave now, like some of the exuberance, But he was this guy when we would go back and we would be out back and you know, he'd be smoking. It'd be talking about Johnny. I love you, brother. I tell you what, man, we're going to do this. And one day we'll be so big. It's all gonna happen, bro. It's all gonna happen. You just can't wait, man. I love you so much. It's gonna be so great. And I would just be like, I just want to survive. And then when he made like the dude has made it happen, he has,
Oh, wait, I have a question. Oh, go, you want to go beans? No, you go ahead. Okay. I have a question about that because I'm always fascinated by two things. The sh the show quote, showcased experience in Los Angeles for people. I don't know why. I just love that because the stories are, so mine was insane. I had a run-in with John C. Riley that did not go well. And then.
That was the ONE negative interaction with John C. Riley!
And I had it. And then also resilience. Those are the two things I want to cover before we, before we get out. Um, but my, my question is about that showcase. What the hell was your experience like
Mine's quick and easy. I was so strung out by that point. You guys, I was literally scrambling to find methadone clinics in Los Angeles, in New York where I could go get doses. So I wouldn't get sick from withdrawals. That, that was the, my top concern. I did a scene with, uh, Whitney Snead at the time who was, we were doing this, this, this, this, this really fun horror scene together that I thought would be a good showcase for LA. But, um, I got no interest, no check marks from anybody. And then, and then luckily, uh, somebody invited me, I got to go over and, and go to universal studios for the day. And I got to go to Dreamworks, which was cool for a minute, but it was completely unrelated to my audition. It was because somebody had invited me to go over there. And that was, uh, that was my big, that was my big, that was like, it was, it was, it was terrible. And I was very close with John at the time, but we, nobody knew. So you guys got to understand, I didn't tell it wasn't like John or my friends. They knew something was wrong with me, but it wasn't like, Hey guys, I got to go score. I was very good at hiding my suffering and which is what made it was so devastating. I know for John and Kelly and my friends who immediately came, you know, like when I wound up in Kansas, after I bottomed out in Chicago and they would come see me, he was just like, would say things like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I'm like, how could you, I'm that guy?
Yeah. I lived with them and I didn't know. Well, Oh, sorry.
That was my showcase experience, which is yours and mine. Similar.
What about yours, John ?
Yeah, it was Denuzak and I were scene partners. And, um, we, uh, no, no, no, no. I can't remember.
You guys did scenes. We just did monologue monologues. Yeah.
Dennis Zack. And I went later for a separate, um, for a separate event when we were like young actors. Um, but, but yeah, when, when I got out there, I, you know, I did the thing, I didn't get any, like, there was no love, um, for me. And it was, you know, it was, uh, I mean it was nerve wracking to do the thing. Cause you just, you're telling yourself at that point, it's like, all right, well, if it doesn't happen here, Oh yes. Hack the pumping gas or, you know, whatever. And, um, Kelly and I had started kind of talking to each other. Um, I had like, literally had seen her, uh, outside of the theater school one morning while we were all gearing up for, uh, for showcase and was just admiring her. Uh, and Denuzak me admiring her. And then he w he got, he did this thing that only Denuzak does where he's like, And then Shayna, like around the same time was like, you know, I really liked John and I want him in my life, but I don't want to date him. One of you girls, you should be you Kelly. Cause I think, you know, Ogden was, uh, maybe with Lisa at this point. Um, but, uh, so somebody by our two close friends had kind of, you know, pushed us in that direction. And by the time we made it to Los Angeles, we went to a house party after, you know, the audition day or whatever the showcase and John C. Riley was at the party, which I remember distinctly thinking was super cool. Um, uh, although the party just felt like, like we had all told ourselves like what LA was,
Oh my God, Kelly. And I wrote up with those Russian girls. Do you remember that at all drug stuff? And I brought like two Russian girls to that party that didn't even speak English. Do you remember that at all?
No, I didn't see because Kelly and I were there for like, I'm not joking for like,
When you took off, you go to the hotel,
We were like, this is not, this is whatever, this is gross. I don't want to do this. And so she and the girls had rented a, um, had rented some, uh, convertible and we'd went for a drive to see the Pacific ocean cause Kelly had never seen it at that point. And so we're standing there in the dark, overlooking the Pacific ocean and I'm like super like shy when it, you know, when I was dating back in the day and Kelly looked at me and was like, now is when you kill it. And so the best thing for me that came out of the theater school is my relationship with her, um,
No. your relationship with me.
Yes, that's too. Well, you know, Dave right here talking, Dave always liked her.
Oh, I did a lot of scene work with Kelly. We never got, she's not really right here. You guys can stop. Oh, I really like her. She's the best man.
So Dave talking about our apartment, brought up a bunch of memories for me that I had forgotten about. And I'll just share one of them with you now that is really touching my heart. Um, so the thing about you is that you always possessed yourself as an artist from, I mean, despite it sounds like you were experiencing a lot of depression and despite problems that you had, you, one of your strengths in my mind has always been a complete, no conflict or ambivalence about being an artist. And you taught that to me. And I never did any type of visual art in my life. And so we lived at that apartment and all of a sudden I got into drying and you were so, um, supportive of getting emotional. You were so supportive of me. And, and I remember thinking, Oh, I'm an artist too. Oh, thank you for that.
I, the nights we would sit up doing like continuous, I was so fascinated. Do you remember? We, we got really into that trip on like trying to connect our thoughts and connect our creativity together and connect our imaginations together. And I was so, so like into that idea, when we would sit up late at night, we put a fire on sometimes and we get the big piece of paper and we do continuous drawings together. A you just start working. And we were, there was a creative thing that was going on with us that was so rewarding. And you contributed to the fledgling press, which I still have. We published our own little Xen out of our apartment, um, that I would use the DePaul copy machines to get free prints. And then I distribute them all over. Do you remember William Burroughs' editor found one? And we got, I got to go down and, and meet Burroughs and, and all of us people who were like, Oh, I don't write. And I was like, well, but we did. So I'm glad that you have that memory. I think about that stuff often. In fact, I was just, I still have it it's right in my filing cabinet right here, all those old fledgling presses. And I was thinking about those days. And I, it's hard when you're a survivor of, um, near, near death addiction and depression, because it's easy to just go. That was that time, but we know that it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been what it was if it had. And I'm, there were even in the midst of that abject suffering, which came much later, by the way, it was really into the fourth year. And that God, that year after I graduated, when I, the candle finally like caught up with itself and then melted. But, um, that stuff, uh, was so clutch man. And like the improv group that we would do at Finley's and like playing together, Gina, like, um, I forgot all the musicians come play like their bongos in our living room and Spontaneously create poetry who knows, like it was great.
We had a party one time and it was so cold outside. And I guess maybe we had no heat that we hung blankets, like in front of our door to try to create warmth. And people came to our party and all they could do is sit down and be under jackets and play like one 80 degrees inside of that apartment.
We survived. And I, I think the, the resiliency factor, and I guess you've talked a little bit, each of you about, you know, maybe the, that you were in, was it, who's the ROTC and that you played sports too. Where does resilience come from that you guys kept keep going? And sometimes it's spiritual sometimes, but that I'm fascinated by resilience. So there are so many times in our lives where you each were, all of us could have been like, you know what, Nope, bye. I'm not going to be an artist anymore. I'm going to, or where does your resilience come from? Do you think
Stubbornness? Um, you know, I, it's, it's super hard. And, and, um, I look at my career and I think about that, how lucky I feel that I am, uh, and grateful I am that I've been able to cobble it together and to make a living. Um, but you know, there are times when things are slow. And for me, so much of, uh, so much of your, uh, sense of self-worth is tied to your ability to, uh, provide or contribute. Um, but I think at the end of the day, uh, it's seeing myself as an artist and as nothing else, um, and being stubborn to the extent that I'm, I'm not, I'm not willing to let that go in the way that I'm not willing to cut off my feet and try to learn to walk again, you know? Um, it's just, it's who I am. It's a part of me.
I, I feel the same. And I know John, you know, express this in John and Kelly met at such a young age, but when I met Eve, it was like, when for the ride, then it's there's years where we're going to make $12,000 there's years that we're going to make $2 million this years we're going to make no, you know, it's like, this is, and, and, and, and, and I'm grateful that I've got the partner who goes, Of course, or you know, John gets the call Monday. You have to go to, you know, uh, Quebec to shoot a movie for two months. And Kelly goes, okay, let's figure it out. This Eve does the same for me. So we're very, I have incredible partnership. I have the stubbornness, you know, John and I have that shared kind of like, there's no way I don't give it. If I got told 99 times, no, I always believed in my heart that that was getting me one step closer to the yes that I needed. And I always tried to look at every moment in opportunity as, and also I think the gratitude that for me personally, which is different than John, but having survived, nearly dying and coming back my tray, you know, when I got my life back, I said, you know, God, I I'm all I'm going to do for the rest of my life is smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I promise, I, I, if I can have, and if I could just have an apartment and a, and a TV and a VCR, and I worked like regular jobs for a couple of years, I mean, I knew John at that time when I wasn't even acting again. And, um,
Let me tell a story about you real quick,
Please, because I'm going to start crying.
when, uh, Kelly and I, we had a lot of Dave's, uh, belongings. Like we had taken them on board when Dave, um, crashed and had to go home to Kansas, um, Missouri.
I was on the Kansas side, but I was right there at the
Yeah. Um, and, uh, we were going down there to see him and we went and we took his stuff and we only got to see him briefly and he was, uh, beaten, but he still smiled. And the next time I think we got to see Dave was at Webster place and he was working at Webster place. And what was your job you were doing there at that time? Popcorn?
I was every theater five. Can you clean the popcorn spill and theater five? I was at DePaul theater school graduate with a BFA in, in the polyester pants with the name tag grateful to be making $11 an hour.
Yeah. And the guys, the, the energy and the positivity you see coming out of dude right now was the same when he was standing there with the little dust pan on the stick and the, and the, and the, you know, popcorn around his feet. Like that was, that was all there. Right then, um, such a powerful, powerful force, man. Thanks, man.
Um, gratitude is, um, just can't stop. And I'm so grateful for you guys. I'm John, you know, I'm all three of you guys. Um, Jen, you know, you were there because you knew personally outside of all the theater school stuff. My, my therapist and the, this, the psycho, the counselor who helped me when I was in the mental hospital, Gina and I were there when, uh, when I was a baby and John put my diaper on and cleaned my little bottom and pouted it up, Sue gratitude is the best is such a great fuel for art. Because even when we go to the darkest places that we have to, you know, inhabit really nasty skins or really creepy characters that you think, how am I gonna, how am I gonna find any love within this? I think for anybody to connect with them, um, love is still, it's so important and it's such an important part of storytelling. And so for me, that, that gratitude, um, it's fuel. Um, so thanks guys. I'm grateful for today.
Boz What did that, I wouldn't know. I know we have to go, but what did that bring up for you just now,
just like the idea that when Gina and I talk about this a lot about the fact that our shame, the things that we think are so shameful and so ugly are the things that connect us to each other in such a deep way that if we can, if we can sort of, um, not deny the fact that we're all connected in this way, especially having gone through the theater school and stuff, but even just human beings that, um, we can take the shame and turn it into something beautiful is, is a huge gift.
Amen. Closer for sure.
Well, thank you guys. This is the greatest thing I'm like now I'm like, wait, wait, our podcast has to be at first. I was like, our podcast is just Dave and John. And then I'm like, okay, that can't be forever. [inaudible]
friends. We will have to have you back. We will have to do a part two and three and four, but thank you so much. It's totally wonderful. And, and, and everything that you write, you said at the beginning, John, that like the stuff comes back, it comes back. Maybe it's 20 years later, maybe it's 30 years later, maybe it's five minutes. But the things that you two have clearly put out into the world are coming back to you in a way that is just makes you shine. And so shine on. That's all I have to say.
Thank you so much. You guys, for allowing us to be here with you together. That's super, super cool. Thank you. Love you. Have a good day. Everybody.
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.