Hi, this is George Sandman.
I am the founder and CEO of Growth Drive, and this is the Business Advisor Hot Seat.
In the hot seat, you're going to hear from industry leaders and thought leaders as
they share their victories and failures building advisory businesses, helping you
and your colleagues, and helping clients get the results they want.
I'm also the author of the Growth Driving Advisor, Proven Strategies for Leading
Businesses from Stuck to Best in Class.
And in this book, we share a methodology and process for leading clients to growing
profits and transferable value.
It's available on Amazon and Kindle.
And if you like it, please be sure to leave a positive review.
This week, our guest is my friend Francis Brown, who's a strategic advisor with
Brown Advisory.
Francis is an attorney by training.
He is a wealth advisor by avocation.
He is a member of the AM &AA.
He is a credentialed exit planner, one of the most knowledgeable and deeply
thoughtful guys I know, a good friend, and a great guy.
So here we go.
This episode is brought to you by Growth Drive.
Growth Drive is the number one best -selling business advising platform with
training, technology, and support you need to get the success you want.
Find a way to engagements, expand your reach and impact, and build a thriving
advisory business based on delivering client wins.
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Okay.
Well, welcome everyone.
And this week, our guest in the hot seat is Francis Brown.
Francis Brown is with Brown Advisory in Washington, DC.
No relation.
And Francis, you and I have known each other for a long time.
You want to just give yourself a little introduction.
You'd probably do a better job than I do.
So Francis Brown, I am a strategic advisor
work with high-net-worth families, clients, particularly business owners on
trying to help them manage their wealth and prepare for that next phase, including
legacy planning, advanced planning, and particularly for business owners, what
they're going to do in anticipation of some future event.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're a CBEC, right?
A certified business exit.
consultant.
Yep.
And I think you and I met years ago when you were with a bank actually at the time.
I was.
And yeah, we've been working together for a long time.
We have some great conversations.
You're also, you've participated in our growth specialist certification.
Thank you.
And actually, you're the guy, we might as well, we were just talking before we came
on the air.
You are the man who came up with the, are the, you stopped the certification like,
well, wait a second.
Who in here is a one and who in here is a five?
And you want to just share your perspective on what that means?
So I was in a room with a bunch of consultants and everybody was getting into
the weeds about what they were going to do to help a client solve a problem.
And I had to stop to come for conversation and say, okay, I'm a one, maybe a two at
best.
And in terms of the level of involvement and helping a business owner identify and
then work towards a plan and ultimately solve that particular problem.
And most of the folks in the room wanted to be a four, if not a five.
And I said, wait, I want to be a one or a two at best.
And so I think that helped frame the conversation and it crossed the various
ways that the group was looking to work with business owners about, did you want
to be a one or
five in this particular area.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's something we've picked up.
And anyone who's watched our videos or read it, in fact, it made it into my book.
Well, one is someone who wants to talk about, typically just talk about exit
planning.
Two is someone who wants to educate their client about the value of their largest
asset, their business.
But they just want to educate.
They don't want to do anything about it.
Fair, right?
And then we have our...
When I say not do, you want to godfather the process or sponsor the process, but
you're not going to get involved in...
You're not going to roll up your sleeves, lift the hood, and start figuring out
what's going on inside the business.
You believe in collaborative accountability, right?
Working with other like-minded advisors.
Who would be a three, an architect, a four, the general contractor taking the
blueprint and turning it into a building?
and even the fives, which are fractional C-suite execs.
I have that about right, right?
Well, it's funny you said that.
You've refined it from what we came up with that day, but no, I think that's
exactly right.
And the point being is that it helped everybody focus on really what we're
trying to get out of the conference and what we're trying to get out of helping
business owners.
Yeah, absolutely.
And which is something you guys are really, really good at.
You have a proven track record of...
of helping them get where they want to go.
You focus on this, on growing profits and value, but from a wealth advisory
perspective, which is incredibly powerful and cool.
You wanna just talk about the types of things that you help people and families
accomplish?
Well, I come at it from the perspective of the bulk of wealth managers.
financial advisors are happy to sit back and say, George, when you sell your
company, we're happy to invest the funds, give us a call.
And I realized that, yeah, that's one way to approach it, but realized through
watching a lot of business owners make mistakes, I'll call predictable mistakes,
by getting out in front of the curve, so to speak, and helping them saying, here
are some of the mistakes that we've seen others make, and we'd like to try and help
you avoid those, because
They're predictable, they're avoidable, just takes a little time and energy.
From the business owner's perspective, they're so busy working on their business,
they don't ever have time to work in it.
So the idea being, if we can get to them, and I'll take it outside of that three to
five year timeframe, just get to them early enough to be able to say, here are
some things that you should think about.
I call it getting them transaction ready, getting themselves and their business
transaction ready.
So it's...
Well, it's wadable that they would want to create an exit plan or some plan that
tells them all the steps they need to go through.
I found it more useful to just say, hey, here are the things that you want to do
before you go to market.
So let's get out of that three to five year timeframe.
Because most of them, if you say I want to grow my business to 20 million or X
million, that's going to take me six years.
But then they get that unsolicited phone call.
They go from.
a six-year plan to a six-month plan.
And so that three to five-year timeframe went out the door immediately.
So by changing that to say, hey, let's focus on what you need to do before you go
to market, from my perspective, is a better approach.
So the idea being, George, before you go to market, let's help you figure out what
you need to do individually.
How much do you need to get out of this?
What are you gonna do post-sale, post-transaction?
And is your business ready?
And as you and I have talked about numerous times, a lot of business owners
had to market almost like it's retired, like they're going to sell their house.
Right.
And it ends up that what your business isn't really ready to get the kind of
multiples that you want.
So whether you're pulling your business back off the market, or you're being told
you're just not ready, uh, there's a lot of frustration out there.
So by helping you ahead of the curve, so to speak, we can say, here are the things
you need to do to make you.
to make it a better transaction, a better process for you.
Yeah, and it's better for the people on a personal level and it's, I think, better
on a professional level because these transactions are incredibly stressful,
right?
Very stressful.
Well, and as you know, I think the stats say that for every 10 business owners that
show up to an investment banker's office,
let's say two to three are actually ready.
So there's a significant category who aren't ready.
Even the ones who do go to market and are deemed market ready, they may not
ultimately end up getting the results that they wanted.
So by spending that time ahead of, by helping them ahead of time, it's
identifying those obstacles, those issues that potentially derail their process or
their transaction.
So the idea is to help them have a better outcome.
And so it's ultimately better for them.
I think it's ultimately also better for a wealth management firm, because if we can
help you have a better outcome on the front end, our interests are aligned.
There's a lot of advisor, oh, what's the term?
Bias maybe is the right word in terms of professional bias in terms of what they
wanna do.
An investment banker, they're there to help you sell your business, which is what
you want them for, but they may lose sight of what you really wanna get out of that
and it becomes the A or B, how do you prioritize?
Our job is to be there, be that little bird on your shoulder, so to speak, to
help keep things aligned in terms of what you wanna accomplish out of that
transaction.
That's interesting.
You're almost like a conscience and a reminder.
What's the word?
I mean, you're really helping to make sure they keep their eye on the right price.
And there's a lot of heartache when guys, when women and men sell their business.
There can be a lot of heartache about the process, the price, life after selling the
business, all things that need to be thought of.
And in fact, can we...
Let's talk about value and communicating value for a second.
And it was in a conversation with you that actually, I'll give you a credit for
another.
So you and I have these conversations and so often you're incredibly intelligent,
experienced, et cetera.
And which is why we've become such good friends.
And you and I have come up with a number of, it was based on one comment that you
made that we ended up with the
big pyramid that has the, here's your business, here's your freedom from the
business, here's your family, your stakeholders, your employees.
That was one conversation and that gets used like crazy out there.
The other one though that's close to home was you and I were having a conversation
about how to communicate value.
How do we help a business owner understand that, sure, you've created an asset that
could be worth $20 million.
but you can only monetize 12 million of it.
And that's a very important conversation to have, right?
I mean, that's at the heart of the services that you provide.
Well, a lot of that came, I'll turn that credit back around because one of our
original conversations, you said that business owners looking to go to market,
they can easily get a sense of the financial viability of the firm, you know,
based on traditional methods, but nobody ever really talks about the-
quality of their operation and they won't find out about how poor the quality is
until they get through due diligence.
And so, yeah, we're not right or not.
Yeah to your point, they're not so really needed to focus on both Is there to be
able to help them make sure that the business is transferable sustainable and
ultimately sellable?
Yeah.
Yeah, I I'm obviously in deep agreement with that comment and uh and leading them
a positive way to understand it.
Listen, just because you can't monetize the value of that business now, let's be
aware of it.
Let's look it in the eye and then let's start looking at ways that you can do
things that you can do about it.
And I know that you do not get involved, or correct me if I'm wrong, but you do not
get involved with here's what you can do about it, other than to say, here's some
resources you might want to consult people, processes, et cetera.
your process helps people connect the dots to understand here's the business value or
here's what I have the business that has that relate to my personal goals.
And being able to connect those two dots then creates the motivation and the
urgency for them to say, okay, here's why I wanna spend the time bringing in senior
management, right?
They know what intuitive that they need to, but ultimately being able to connect
those dots all the way back to their financial viability for their family.
is really significant.
And because they're so busy working, it's not always easy for them to see those dots
and how they align and how they need to be connected.
Absolutely.
And, man, I just lost, I just, I had a, you just hit on a point that I has now
left my head.
But as they're having this, so you, one of the things that you do so well is to
lead what we call the growth conversation, which is, hey, what does this business
need to deliver?
Where does this story go?
Can you comment on that for a sec, how you start these conversations?
I think there are a lot of people who know where they want to go, but maybe haven't
really
ever find that approach to be able to say, what are we really trying to accomplish
here?
And that may sound, you know, trite to a certain extent, but until you really
understand, is this the problem we're trying to solve?
I mean, business owners have got numerous problems, right?
And so as a matter of solving problems, they're great ideas.
And I think if presented with I can save you $10,000, or I can find you $10,000,
most of them are going to focus on, well, let me save the $10,000.
So they're interested in solving problems.
So to that extent, if we can help them understand, these are the different kinds
of problems you have out there, which one of these do you really wanna solve?
Is it a compelling problem?
What's the cost of sticking with the status quo?
And then being able to align that to all the other dots of how that helps them
accomplish their goals and objectives that really creates the urgency for them to
wanna do something about it and the motivation.
to be able to stick with making whatever improvements they need to.
And the example I was given before was bringing in the senior management team.
So why do I need to do that?
Well, they know they need to do that.
But as they can see that will help them ultimately sell the company and not have
to stick around if they don't want to, or just makes the company more valuable.
They intuitively know that, but having that sense of urgency makes it real for
them.
Yeah.
It provides the emotional fuel.
And it's interesting because what you're describing is helping them understand that
they need to create an immortal business.
Business is going to go on to be bigger, better, go on to greater glory, if you
will, after they've left, which is sometimes hard as potentially the founder
or as the CEO to understand.
You need to create something that's going to be better.
leave at some level the accountability stack.
It's something we, a conversation we also had during your certification workshop
that we now have in each certification workshop, which is for ourselves, let's
talk about, do we want to do it?
Does anybody in this room think they're going to retire?
Or like retire, and stop working completely?
And generally speaking, no hands go up, right?
I mean, I'm never going to retire and stop doing this stuff.
I am working hard as you may be as well.
And as our business owners typically are on working on their own terms, doing the
work they love on their own terms, for the amount of time they want to invest.
And the name of the game becomes creating options.
How do we create options for our clients?
This episode is brought to you by Growth Drive.
Growth Drive is the number one best -selling business advising platform with
training, technology, and support you need to get the success you want.
Find a way to engagements, expand your reach and impact, and build a thriving
advisory business based on delivering client wins.
Growth Drive, find out more at growthdrive .com.
Yeah, I think it is about creating options for them.
And a lot of times I don't think business owners have the time to reflect and think
about where do they wanna go with this?
I won't get this right, but I recall seeing a book years ago that talked about
why do people get into business?
Why do small business owners start their ventures?
And a very small segment of them get into the business, the sole reason of creating
an asset based on a rock solid idea and of growing that business.
with the ultimate goal of selling that business.
I think a lot get into it for the sole reason of, hey, I'm pretty good at this.
I have a technical expertise and I'd rather start my own business than work for
somebody else.
And I think that's a significant portion of the segment of people who become
business owners.
And without that drive and motivation to say, I'm doing this for X number of years
to hit X price, it's some of it's lifestyle, some of it's just personality,
but they're the ones I think we can do a lot for
They're in the business for the sole purpose of being in business, but haven't
really thought about the end goal.
And as you, if they contemplate those ultimate transition of that business, is
it going to family friends or are they going to sell it?
A lot of them are pretty indifferent.
Yeah.
They want to monetize that.
But um,
how they think of that in context of their overall family.
It's the golden goose that's laying the golden eggs.
And is the goose more important than the eggs?
And a lot of them hadn't really thought about that.
So a lot of those conversations, it's about what problem are we solving?
Is it about the business?
Is it about something to your family?
What are you ultimately trying to do with this?
And I think adding value is helping them get context for those conversations.
They actually wanna do something about it.
Yeah.
It's funny, you remind me that you and I were together at the Business Enterprise
Institute, BEI's conference in Denver here in August.
And we ran into Ali, who is going to be a guest, Ali Taylor, who's going to be a
guest on this show here in a couple of episodes.
I interviewed John Brown, that's publishing right now.
And Ali works...
You've worked with her in the past, right?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And so, Ali Taylor, ladies and gentlemen, is a very specialized psychologist who
focuses on business owners and their families, right?
And that is going to be a fascinating interview as well.
And can you just describe how, so you're a wealth advisor who focuses on the business
as an asset and helps them understand their options for their personal and
professional goals.
Where does an Allie Taylor fit into this story?
And what impact does that have?
How do your clients receive this level of attention and advice?
Well, if you remember, so you told me you were going to be in Denver and I just
happened to be there.
And we were having breakfast and you said, oh, let's go upstairs.
Well, I found out Allie was speaking.
So I said, well, let's go in and see her session.
Thanks for the introduction, by the way.
You're welcome.
I'm still waiting for my
Um, no, the way Ali helps it, I think a lot of advisors know that the question
needs to be asked and they sort of, some of them are okay asking it, but do they
really want to solve the problem?
So to the extent is there something holding a business owner back from growing
their business or, or wanting to transition a lot of that'll be self
sabotaged from unconscious or subconscious, um, things going on.
So Ali's there to actually.
identify and help create a path for that business owner to solve a problem.
Whatever is holding them back, preventing them from making that next step.
And a lot of them don't know enough about themselves to know what's holding them
back.
And she's there to be, she comes in to help in those tough situations.
I'll never forget a story she told me about a business owner who struggled with
transitioning a business to her kids.
And whenever the topic came up,
she would break into tears.
And the issue that she was struggling with was that she felt it would look poorly
upon her if her kids took the business to another level.
And ultimately, when she worked through the issue, she was like, well, as a
parent, wouldn't you want your kids to be able to do better than you had?
Look what you started the business with and look where you're handing it off to
them.
So it's just natural that they should be able to take it to greater heights than
what you've been able to accomplish.
And once she thought through all that,
it resolved the majority of the issues and they were able to make some progress and
figuring out how to transition the business as opposed to whenever the issue
come up, she would break out into tears.
So Allie's there to really help business owners and advisors figure out how to, if
there's something preventing a business owner from wanting to grow a business and
or transition it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you'd mentioned self-sabotage, business owners do this.
regularly.
I hesitate to say often, but they do this regularly.
We'll get them close to a transaction and it's almost like they invent some reason
to not do the deal.
They change.
There are a bunch of examples.
You've experienced that firsthand.
Well, it's self-sabotaging behaviors of getting into arguments or just doing
something that does not seem rational.
You can't figure out why they're doing it.
Well, there's a reason why they're doing it.
They may not realize it, but Ali's there to help break through that wall to say,
okay, here's what's going on and here's how we can work around that wall.
Yeah, we're stuck as advisors trying to apply rational thought to an irrational,
to an emotional situation.
Well, I can speak from my industry.
We're, you know, as an attorney, recovering attorney, working in financial
services firm, we're all...
left-minded risk mitigation people.
And Ali helped me understand that the profile for a business owner, uh, they
deal with ambiguity better, they deal with risk better, um, they're, they're
personalities that make them successful in running their business or sometimes would
prevent them from wanting to engage in process of planning, which, which we're
all about, right?
Plan, plan, plan.
And they don't have the time or inclination.
They deal with ambiguity, their risk profile, all those reasons.
Yeah, and then not even getting into, in the wealth management world and the exit
world, but the shiny object issue, et cetera.
It's interesting because I had Tina Corner-Stoltz of LX Council, who was my
guest, and we talked about a lot of her.
licensees, customers, our CEOs, people who've sold their business and they're
moving on to their next act, but they want to work, as we were saying, on their own
terms.
Yeah, so helping understand what can come next, what are your options?
And I mentioned creating options earlier.
Running your business is not the only thing you can do.
But ultimately, it's their business and their decision, right?
Yeah.
So-
What do you do when clients say, listen, I'm never gonna sell this, Francis.
Do you have-
What do you do in that situation, if anything?
Well, I think one of the ways I'm able to build trust with clients is it's not about
what I want for them, it's what they want for themselves.
And by helping them accomplish their goals and objectives, it's about building trust.
And so yes, all things being equals, if well service is professional, would I want
them to sell it and invest a ton of money with us?
Absolutely.
But we can get there.
different ways, because if it's a matter of helping that family put a plan in
place, it's ultimately going to transition it to the kids.
Not only do you have the first generation being happy about the result, having a
successful outcome, you have the second generation happy about the outcome.
Yeah.
Well, it's really about trying to find the right solution.
And as a, one of the practice areas that I dabbled in had to spend time in was with
ERISA and so it drafted and
served drafted ESOP documents, had served as council and trustees, a very particular
about putting an ESOP in the right spot, right?
So a lot of people would say, don't do ESOP.
So I think it's a matter of an ESOP is the right tool in the right spot.
So again, transitioning to the family in the right spot, in the right situation.
So yes, how do we find a way to say yes for you to be able to not sell this
business and transition it to the kids?
It ultimately may not work.
But it's a matter of being able to say, okay, let's figure out how we can find
yes, get to yes.
And if we can't, then we can look at other alternatives.
But if that's what they really want, it's like, well, one, why is that what you
want?
Because the kids may not want that.
They were like, dad, you know, we listened to you come home or mom, we listened to
you come home and moan and complain about being a small business owner for years.
So why is, why in the world would I want to take over this business and have that
life of misery?
And which reminds me of a story of a client we had, it was 82 years old, had
taken the business from his dad, grew it from, oh, I forget what it was like 20
million of revenue to well over 500 million of revenue and would not engage in
any transition conversations because he felt his kids were slackers.
Right.
So he gave their 50s.
They're thinking about retirement.
And he won't transfer the business to him because they won't put in the hours like
he did and he's doing well.
They're like, well, dad, we don't want to put in the hours that you put in because
we didn't have much of a dad and we don't want to do that to our kids.
Yeah.
Dad's saying, yeah, I'd really like to transition to my kids, but they haven't
earned it yet.
And the kids are like, no, thank you.
We, we'd much rather have you sell the company and we can go do our own thing.
So I think for a lot of good reasons, most people want to transition the company to
their kids.
but it's probably not gonna work out.
Then they think employees, and then it kind of is the last drop to say, okay, now
we'll look at selling it to a third party.
I had another situation working with a client where he had promised to give the
business or promised to give 30% of the business to his son.
Well, when the company was less than 10 million in value, that was okay.
Now that it was valued at 100 million, totally changed the dynamic of
what the family had to deal with.
So in that instance, dad had to go back to son and say, I need you to release me from
my promise of giving you 30% of the company.
So we had to figure out how could we make it up, how could dad make it up to some,
and we're able to get there.
But ultimately he wanted to give that business to his kid.
He wanted it to be a multi-generational business, multi-family business, but
wasn't able to get there.
So.
It's not about saying, no, let's sell.
It's about how do we find a way to yes, and then when that doesn't work, we look
at other alternatives.
Sure, and I love that because you're respecting, you're absolutely right.
You're respecting, it's your business, it's your life, and we're here to help
you.
Yeah.
Yeah, and things work out.
There's a reason you're as successful as you are.
So, very cool.
When we talk about, you mentioned bringing in a senior leadership team.
I want to shift gears a little bit.
Do you do any work, shame on me for not knowing this, but do you do any work on
helping to create accountability and comp plans for those senior leaders?
We, yeah, we do, depending on the circumstance.
Well, you know, I think about being a trusted advisor, there's an area we'll
have subject matter expertise and there's an area where I don't.
but it's a matter of saying, well, let us help you figure out what are the questions
that you need to be asking yourself, and that you need to be asking those around
you so that we can ultimately find the right resource.
So yeah, we'll have those conversations, but more probably it's about bringing in
the right technical matter, subject matter expert at the right time.
Yeah, absolutely.
With every aspect of the business, right?
And not getting, and I like what you've just described because you're doing it on
your terms, what a lot of you...
we see happen regularly, not that we're overstated, but regularly as people
getting pulled into the weeds, not so much in your profession, but more so in people
saying, well, listen, I know how to fix that.
And they just roll up their sleeves and start fixing it.
And that is a place we recommend that folks don't go.
Well, and I think I learned this from you.
It's a matter of, again, what are we really trying to accomplish here?
If you don't spend the time really looking at the problem from multiple angles, you
may not be working on the right problem.
That's exactly right.
Questions, questions, right?
What do we really, and that's what the growth, one of the things that the growth
conversation, which is our shorthand for this initial deep discovery that I believe
every advisor should undertake with their client to really understand
where does this need to go?
And not accepting the first, if somebody says, I want to grow my business, my
profits from 5 million to 10 million, we really need to understand why that's the
case.
What do you think that's going to do for you?
Do you understand the cost that this will have in time, in emotion, in capital?
Just get deep, deep into that conversation, which I know you do.
And yeah, and it's asking...
a thousand good questions.
Well, I'm digging at it because you'll get some BS answers and you really say, well,
is that really right?
Is that really what's going on there?
And it may take a while to get to the truth, but the business owner, again,
that's that subconscious sabotaging where I think this is what I want to accomplish,
but are unwilling to admit that there's something else going on.
Yeah.
It's-
It's such a fascinating business owners are fascinating to work with.
And I think, you know, a lot of what we've just discussed touches on why these are so
intellectually challenging and rewarding cases.
I was just thinking of a case where when I asked, I pushed back on a business owner
and he said, you're right, that's not the reason.
And I go, what's the reason?
Because my kids aren't capable of running the company.
I want you to tell them.
I'm like, what?
Are you serious?
Yeah, so I ended up having the conversation with the kids that dad wanted
to sell the business because they didn't think that they were gonna be able to run
it.
And how did that impact them, which opened up a whole nother can of worms.
But he was at least willing to admit that there was another reason behind his
thinking.
Well, and thank God he shared that with you because if we think about how that
could play out, he was lucky to have you.
So, well, Francis, it's hard to believe we've been chatting for half an hour
already.
And yeah, this is how our conversations go, right?
You know what, if I could, in closing, I ask this of each of our guests, is there
one thing, thought, admonition, one thing that you
that either your colleagues, business advisors, or CEOs should do or know when
they're thinking about growing and monetizing the value of their business.
Oh, yeah, you'd ask that question and a lot of thoughts run through my head.
I think to the one if there's one thing, it's really.
Not jumping to solutions with business owners, it's really having that in-depth
conversation about what are we really trying to accomplish?
I feel like we're, you know, beating the dead horse here.
But the reason I think it's so important is because.
Once you find out what the problem is, then you can take an opportunity to look
at what are the other possible solutions that might solve that problem before you
get to your solution.
And I think that's a critical step.
So it's not only finding out what the problem is, the compelling problem, but
it's then focusing on what are all the other possible solutions before ultimately
getting to what might be your solution.
So that you can really help them figure out, okay, am I the right person to help
you?
Or is there some other solution out there that would be a better fit for you?
Absolutely, it's interesting.
That's the, you know, what could we do?
And there's a range of the possible, and then what should we do?
Which is what makes sense in this situation.
And as I'll editorialize, business owners, right, see a subject to change without
notice.
They can disappear from one place on the map and reappear somewhere else.
the blink of an eye, right?
It is not a linear process.
That's right.
Well put.
Well, Francis, thanks, man.
I really appreciate you sharing your time with us.
And thank you very, very much.
Any questions for me before we wrap up?
I'm all good.
Thank you for the time.
Outstanding, Francis.
Listen, thank you very much.
And ladies and gentlemen, ciao for now.
This is George.
Thanks.
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