Trey: hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU.
Need to know a podcast dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe
and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey untrue.
I'm doing pretty fantastic.
We are here at the end of another finale and it's just really, really exciting to
get to be here and discuss this with you.
Oh yeah.
I will say this though.
And this serves as kind of like a reminder for maybe if anybody
didn't see it in the feed.
The last three episodes that we have put out, bonuses included.
We've worked with guests and every time we have a guest on, like, I, I do,
um, a write-up to like introduce them and I will sit here before we record
for a good 10 minutes, just practicing that I was sitting here and I felt
like I was missing something because I didn't have to have a prepared intro.
I was just sitting here wondering if I was missing something the entire time,
Jude: you know what we have, we've had what?
We mentioned the last part.
We had four recordings last week and yeah, our show had again, Bonus episode
where the guests, Rob and Jamison Tara bonus on us, we recorded with Tara.
I don't know when that one's coming out with, for her pot.
So at least at this point, be on the lookout for that.
If you're listening to Tara's pod and if you're not, you definitely should.
Now I'm going to transition one thing Tara didn't do on our pie, but I think we're
going to get it is our spoiler sound.
And we put it out there where what if this should be 10 episodes and almost
every guest we've had has done their own rendition of the spoiler sound.
And we'd love to at least during what if replace our spoiler
bumper with our listeners, a rendition of the spoiler sound.
So if you would like to participate, go ahead and record yourself.
It could even be in your, on your cell phone.
That's perfectly fine.
Email it in@mcuneedstoknowatgmail.com and we will.
Get it ready to, you know, keep us separated from pre
spoiler and spoiler thoughts.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
Look, there's 10 episodes.
We know at least 10 people, listen, this is going to be like, do it, come on.
Jude: It'll be fun.
But if we get enough of them, we can go beyond I feel,
Trey: Hey, what apparently, apparently what if is getting a season two?
So there's potential for more nice, well, you know, speaking of that
engagement, uh, you know, every week at the end of the show, we always talk
about leaving a rating and review.
Uh, we wanted to take some time to highlight a review.
We just got recently.
And so I'm gonna read it.
This one comes in from Sierra D L and it says amazing voices and opinions.
So my boyfriend and I have been watching the Marvel movies recently,
and it's so fun to listen to this podcast as we go throughout the movies.
I can't wait to listen to the episodes about the MCU shows.
I've been skipping those because spoilers, I love this podcast
because it feels like I'm listening to my friends, talk about Marvel.
And I just don't feel so alone when I have it on.
This is also one of the only podcasts I listened to because
I normally can't get into them.
So again, Sierra, thank you so much for that super kind review
and also to play into what we were just talking about, reinforcing
the important needs for the smile.
Jude: Yes.
Thank you, Sierra.
Thank you for the time.
Trey: Well, you know, like I said, we are here at the finale of low-key.
If you downloaded this episode, you know that we're going to be talking
about Loki season one, episode six, entitled for all time, always.
And let's just go ahead and get into it.
If you've been listening, you know, that we always have our preschooler thoughts,
uh, followed by the spoiler sound where we'll get into the spoiler zone.
So before we get there, dude, what are your pre spoiler thoughts?
Jude: Other thoughts on this episode, I'm going to say this might
be my favorite or the best finale of the three Disney plus shows.
I think so.
Yeah.
Uh, I, yeah, it was done really well.
Um, yeah,
Trey: that's really exciting to hear because I didn't know
which way you were going to go.
So I'm genuinely excited to hear this episode.
Jude: Yeah, it just, it just was.
And, and, you know, they, they ended this show.
Well, you know, and, and again, it's not that they didn't in fucking the
winter soldier, well, or one division.
Well, but we talked about it.
Um, just the feeling of having to finish your final fight, set piece, wrap up
these loosens, and it just felt weird.
It felt like watching those, that I hit pause and walked away for a
week and came back and hit play.
Whereas these, this here actually felt like you would think with the
DV show of like, oh, there was a natural end episode five, and then,
you know, we get the natural episode six, uh, and it just, it flowed really.
Here's where their thoughts.
What do you think?
Pre spoiler thoughts?
I should say.
Yeah.
Trey: I want to be careful because I know I mentioned that there
was something in one division that was a saga defining moment.
And I may or may not have put my foot in my mouth with that one, but because
I'm me, I'm about to do it again.
This episode felt like the MC.
Babe roofing they're shot with where they're going to go.
If we're going to get another Avengers end game, where we have that incredibly
cathartic moment of the portal scene, everything in that last half of Avengers
end game, we will be able to trace it all the way back to the feeling of this
insurmountable mountain that we got a glimpse up here in this low-key finale.
So I am genuinely excited with where we go.
Um, I do think that you brought up some things that I want to touch on
when we get into the spoiler zone about the comparisons of the previous
Disney plus shows and this one in terms of completing their story.
I'll have more to stay in the spoiler zone, but I do feel, I guess, just
to echo what you said, I think this is the strongest finale that we've
gotten out of the three show so far.
Well,
Jude: I need, I need to add as well.
You said may bruising their shot.
Um, I guess now, uh, you know, I mean it's still early in his career, but as soon
we're going to be show halo Otani is shot.
I realized you don't keep up with baseball, but I had to
throw that out because he's being compared to base right now.
Well, he started as DH and this all-star game just the other day and pitched, and
he's arguably the hottest baseball player right now on the same team was the best
baseball player in the world right now.
And Mike trout.
So I have to throw
that
Trey: out.
I'm going to be completely honest.
A few weeks ago, we discovered I couldn't name two basketball teams.
When you said that name, my head was just like, indebt
Rolodex, just cycling through.
Wait, who was that?
In the low-key show?
I had no idea that was baseball.
Jude: And I was going to say, friend, Daniel might be rolling
his eyes cause he's a red Sox fan.
So
Trey: listen, I keep friend Daniel's eyes limber.
He's always rolling his eyes and things that I have to say.
And with that being said, I think that's a perfect time to jump into this.
So
Jude: yes, let's do
Trey: that.
So like we said, you're going to hear an audio cue and on the other side it will
be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.
We'll see you on the other side.
Wow.
So, of course we're really breaking this down into the most important topics.
And the first one that we have up for this episode is simply he who remains, you
know, I texted you whenever I started to figure these out that like, there's no way
that we could start this episode without just tackling the conquer in the room.
So this section is going to entail with everything we learned about he
who remains in his place in this story.
So is there anywhere you'd like to begin,
Jude: I'm going to begin here.
I was, my notes actually said king, instead of you who remains that
might, I feel like it might not be accurate a hundred percent accurate.
Um, just, you know, cause it's, you know, cause there's Marvel
in the MCU, but uh, yeah.
So my notes say king all the way through it.
I thought first off, I think I even mentioned in one episode
where I don't think that it would be able to introduce a character.
Um, this late in the game, but they did.
And I thought they did it really well.
I think having the fact that it's a variant, they were wide open to
do whatever they wanted with him.
I liked the way they portrayed him and that kind of silly, goofy,
at least the way I took it, but they're not the MCU, you know?
Oh, what's the director's name for Hitman.
The wasp paint.
Yeah.
Like he's not though kind of cornered in performance-wise, you know, they're not
cornered in just cause it's the variant.
And I think that's really brilliant.
I liked that they did that.
Trey: It, it, it makes me appreciate.
Cause we had questions about like, are they cheating a little bit with catching
our low-key up to speed with all the growth he had in the movies by showing
him at the beginning of episode one, it was training us for this moment where we
get to meet the variant of king or he who must be named he, who must be named man.
Harry
Jude: Porter.
We see a later
Trey: added to the list of all the podcasts we need to create.
Oh, well you can see what I'm getting at.
Like it's.
They were training us from the beginning and it made me appreciate that a lot more.
And, and to speak a little bit more.
I was right there in the camp with you.
I think whenever you mentioned that you couldn't introduce somebody this late
in the game, I was completely wrong.
I mean, I wrote verbatim.
I can't believe they introduced cane question mark, but it's
not enough that they did it.
It was the way they did it, like 10 minutes in this episode and he's just
sitting there and it's like, okay.
Like I was, I think in my head, I just was going no way.
I can't believe this is how we're getting introduced to this character.
And finally, just to, to go on a little bit more, you're saying you mentioned him
kind of being goofy, kind of being aloof a bit to me, the thing that I took away
from his performance, and this is a little contradictory, but I think it fits, it's
like there's this subdued gravitas to him.
Like he is a larger than life.
But he's kind of bored of it.
And I think that also is a strong echo of things.
We were feeling at the beginning episodes with the TVA, they had this
huge power, but it was bureaucratic.
It was just kind of matter of fact.
And so I liked that consistent drum beat from the creation to the
Jude: creator.
Yes.
So I, you say that you get bored with it.
I think that's the other reason why it works so well is Loki had that line
of like, you'd give up all this power and while low-key had that growth,
you could still see where he did it.
You know, he's one of this power he's had this ambition to rule and he's,
and his face was somebody who's got to rule and he doesn't quite understand
someone wanting to need to give that up.
Um, although it would be interesting if it was the other classic Loki
variant, you know, he would understand, you know, that, that feeling.
Um, but, but that's cool.
Cause it's, it's, it kind of gives you a sense of how long King's been doing that.
It also gives you a sense of.
The way they did that character, our Loki's ultimate development.
And through this show,
Trey: you mentioned something about why Kang worked for you.
That's very similar to something that I was writing in my notes too, is I
think what makes it work for me is that we spent an entire season witnessing
this incredible power of a dummy.
And instead of finding a mastermind, we found someone who was weary.
And I think that's such a fascinating direction to take such a huge power.
And it, again, like I said, it echoes the flippancy of things we've said
in the earlier episode, but what I didn't write in my notes, but you're
making me appreciate now is how it was an echo of low-key as well.
And it helps reinforce.
The second thing I wrote after that, which is power alone can not be the answer,
like whatever is going to be the solution.
Again, I keep talking about this babe, Ruth shot of where we end up
with, um, surmounting this mountain.
It can't be just power alone because we saw how he, who remained
Kang, whoever is bored of it.
So I'm very curious to see where they go with that.
Jude: You know, the, the whole series I kept talking about this wizard of Oz feel,
you know, like the time you project there, this man behind the curtains, and we kind
of get that, but I actually, in my notes put, this feels like the Santa Claus.
First, um, and I mentioned the wizard of Oz, but this feels like the Santa Claus.
Cause he's, he's looking for a replacement and that was the whole Tim Allen bit.
Right?
Like I'm looking for this replacement.
Uh, so yeah, I liked, you know, um, yeah, it's, it's, that's the other
thing is to think of it as like this, this time, Lord, that's more Dr.
Huish timed, you know, time, God or whatever, but, but he is he's
he's th they, they were shocked.
He was like here, flesh and blood, you know, and it makes
sense, like he wants to.
You know, it's the whole, everything goes back to Dolan.
He can't want, you know, he possibly wants to do this forever.
Right.
Trey: Always to
Jude: Nolan.
Speaking of Nolan, I watched Tennant last night.
Oh yeah.
No quick thoughts Tuesday night.
Oh, I can't wait to watch it again.
Like I thoroughly enjoyed it and I feel like after a couple of more watches,
like to really dive in, it's probably one of my top Nolan films, but oh, wow.
Yeah, it was good.
Really impressed.
So, and just it's appropriate.
No one likes to mess with time.
So
Trey: very much so.
But getting back to the episode, I, I want to speak about what you're
saying about finding the replacement.
Something that I found.
Very noteworthy is so much of this season has been putting a punctuation
point on this idea that throughout every reality, the thing that unites
Lokeys is their ability to survive.
They continue, they persist, they don't give up.
I think what Kang find so fitting for them to be his replacements
is I mentioned it last week.
That's gotta be a boost to your ego, that you were such a nuisance to
the timeline, that there is a place specifically for all your variants.
And I think, you know, I, I think there is some truth to the nuisance, but I
think that's where king may have picked up on this ability of the Lokeys.
And then it just became about finding the right to which was
what, uh, you know, he lays out front in front of Loki and Sylvie.
I don't know.
I just appreciate that connection, whether it's a stretch or not,
uh, it just felt fitting as a justification of why he chose them too.
Jude: No, that's, that's an excellent way.
I got, I didn't think about that.
That's an excellent way to think of it, right.
Loki survive.
And he's getting all these Loki's here.
Cause they'll know he, I
Trey: mean, Hey, he keeps mentioning that he's afraid of himself.
Like he has a lot of experience of fighting multiple versions of themselves.
And so I think that's the fondness that he finds in the Lokeys.
Jude: Right.
Well, and it's interesting because some of them fought themselves.
We saw that.
Uh, but then some of them found a way to get along.
Um, and ultimately, like I said, we know they're going to survive.
That's what Loki's do.
Uh, and he has that line, like, like I just paved the road and you walked it.
Right.
So in that sense, clearly.
I mean the mechanics of the show.
And if we're gonna, you know, follow this and buy into it.
Yeah.
He's, he's searching for Loki's and he's just pulling Loki's left and right.
Trying to find the right ones.
Yeah.
It is the Santa Claus.
Trey: I can't believe out of all the movies you pick the Santa Claus.
Jude: Well, it's a Christmas.
It's fine.
Which you don't do Christmas.
Okay.
Trey: Well, I do Christmas.
I don't do Christmas movies.
There's a distinct difference.
And it's so funny because people don't know what we're referencing
because that's a hidden MC you need to know episode that never came out,
Jude: right?
Yeah.
I remember that now.
Trey: That we prune that one.
We were the TVA of this.
Yes.
Jude: We, that episode got pruned,
Trey: you
Jude: know?
Okay.
So what's going to happen is I'm going to get at least one or two
texts when they hear, see here's that.
And one of them for sure is going to be from friend Daniel was like, what?
You're seeing you episode.
They got, they got pruned.
So,
Trey: and the reason he's going to believe it exists is because
I'm admitting there's a movie.
I didn't see in it.
Oh man.
Getting back to the episode there there's one more thing I want to
talk about here in this section.
And it's fascinating to me that there are echoes of Thanos and he who remains.
And the thing that really kind of tipped me off on that, other than, you know,
clearly the MCU is setting up their next big, bad is there's a moment where
we see him get really passionate about being the one to harness a life's power.
And it leads into this feeling of him.
Like I isolated the timeline, I protected it.
I kept everybody safe and it, it really feels like there's
this like, not jealousy.
Like he's just upset that despite all the work he's doing, they still are.
What did he say?
They came to, to kill, uh, kill the devil.
What was that
Jude: line?
Yeah, they came to kill the devil.
I should've wrote it down.
No, no, no.
I got it.
You came to kill the devil, right?
Well guess what?
Yeah, I keep.
Right.
And if you think I'm evil, well, just wait until you meet my variance.
Trey: Yeah.
And, and so the reason that reminds me of Thanos is go back to end game when he's
having the big speech with the three, three vendors of like, you know, I thought
I could give people peace and here you are still trying to revert things back to it.
So I'm just going to start from scratch.
Like he was genuinely upset.
And I think to see that here.
He who remains it reflects that statement of him being tired, because
I think one of the things that I felt is that it feels so arbitrary that this
moment where he's giving the choice to low-key and Sylvie is this is the
moment that he would cease to know.
But I think it hints at that lack of appreciation that he's feeling from
the universe because he's resigning, you know, what does it matter to
him if his work continues, if people continue to fight against free will.
And so I think that's a really strong echo of that.
Jude: Okay.
You just said, if people continue, continues to fight against freewill
Trey: contradictory a bit,
Jude: well, I'm just wondering if you mean, if you're calling
he, who remains or case.
Freewill in a similar way Ramona does, or if you meant, or if you
meant that they're fighting for free will to like, for them to have it.
Trey: So I guess this speaks to the way that I view the timeline, because
it's, we continue to see there are potentials for the timeline to.
And that's the purpose of the TVA is they come in and they, they
force it back into one timeline.
And I view the fight against free will not necessarily being a knowing
thing, but, or there's a select few of people who know that they're doing
it clearly with Loki and Sylvie.
They've reached this point where they're fighting against it, but with
all the infinite possible realities, I'm I, I know how I'm sounding,
I'm going to push through it of all the infinite possible realities.
It's it's like Kang is realizing the, the futility of it.
If that makes sense.
I don't know if I'm explaining the question a little bit more, but okay.
Jude: No, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm okay.
Let me tell you back what I think I heard you say Kenya's
Tyler King is tired because.
Content constantly pruning all the variations to this one.
Timeline starts to become, feel feudal if you tile forever.
Okay.
Um, and so he's fighting against people's or whatever, in this
timeline's free will to maintain the timeline and he's tired and evil,
like Sylvie and our Loki is fighting against Kane to have free choice so to
Trey: speak.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a lot more concise at what I was getting at, so I appreciate that.
Jude: Alright.
Well, cause, cause you know, I'll talk about this a little bit more when we get
to Ramona and Mobius, but the way you said it, it sounded like you were naming
Kane, like giving him the title of, well,
Trey: no, I didn't mean it that way.
I think.
I wish there was any, like I have no, let me try this.
See, just
Jude: makes sense.
I mean, that's why I was just checking, but yeah, but I would, I
understand what you're trying to say.
Trey: Yeah.
It's like, he's trying to force something that can't happen.
And at a certain point he just is like, I'm done with it.
Yeah.
Jude: There's a lot of things that can relate to real life to that, but okay.
I'll just leave it at that and let it people listening, fill in the gaps.
Trey: Yeah.
I don't know if it's telling me the first thing that was coming to mind
was trying to push magnets together.
Jude: Well,
Trey: if there's any more, I think we can move on to the next
Jude: section.
Uh, yeah, let's do that.
Yeah, let's do that.
Okay.
So
Trey: the next section is entitled finding free will.
So this is going to encompass everything with Brovana and Mobius and the B
15 subplot of them exposing Ramona's variant to the other minute men.
So starting,
Jude: I, I don't know what the, you just said, finding free will.
And for some reason, the image of the DVD free really, you bought
me just came, popped in my head.
Trey: I'm so bummed.
You didn't get the note because it wouldn't have been perfect.
And just like in case people forgot it's let's hope low-key doesn't truck this up.
Oh man.
Anyway, uh, in this topic, uh, starting with me this time.
I wanted to circle in on this.
I think it's pretty clear now that Ramona has known about being a variant for a
long time and explains why she kept that pin of the high school she worked at.
And the thing I wanted to follow that up with is.
Last week, I believe with Rob, we talked about how Moebius buried
himself in the work, and I don't think he's ever known, but I think
he knew something wasn't right.
And because of that, that's why we saw him be so dedicated to the
work fast forward to this episode.
And we see that Ramona does know, but she exclaims.
It can't be for nothing.
It just makes her character feel a little bit more tragic of her trying
to just cling on to any, any sense that what she was doing wasn't for nothing.
And I can't say that a character who says only the person in charge deserves
to have free will is sympathetic.
But I understand her a little bit more now and it, I don't
know, it was just sad to see
Jude: her character go playing off of something.
You just said, my note Mobius returns to Ramona, Ramona
needs her life to have meaning.
So she continued, right?
Like he's, he's like, this is fake.
How can you keep doing this?
And like you said, she's looking for this purpose.
If it's, if you're right.
And I, and I want to say you are actually, you know, it makes sense that
she had the trophies use that specific pin because she knew she was a variant.
I also, it makes me wonder, what does that say about the life she left, that
she figured it out and still stuck with this as this gave, it gave her purpose.
And I'm really curious of, you know, that's just an
extra layer to that character.
That's you?
Try to add depth, or if that was a planted seed that we're
going to get to see it somewhere.
Trey: Yeah.
It's I think we we've, we've touched on it a couple of times.
I, I think futility is among the themes that this show keeps exploring, uh,
throughout the entirety of this season.
And I wonder if it speaks and I'm reaching in the dark here, cause we obviously
don't have enough techs to go on this, but I wonder if it's because of the
futility of realizing you are no longer part of the world you thought you were,
and now you're in the TVA that they just found purpose in going along with
what was presented in front of them.
Yeah, it'll be, I mean, maybe it's something we see, continue to explore.
Uh, and in the future.
Jude: Yeah.
I will say this.
I have the thought, but we'll leave it for next week.
Um, I'm curious if, uh, season two, we'll get the same, a number of episodes.
Yeah.
Um, because I feel like, like there's a lot of questions that we just brought
up again, we'll save the bulk of this for next week's pod, but I think they
have a lot of opportunities here to answer those questions about the TV.
Yeah.
Trey: And, and for those who may not know, we always have a wrap
up episode of, uh, the series.
So we'll be, we'll be continuing some of those bigger questions there.
You know, one more thing that I wanna to add to this Ramona idea of
being a little bit more relatable is again, want to be careful.
I don't want to be sympathetic for somebody who has that viewpoint of only
the person in charge gets free will, but I do love that if we can draw this parallel
between Mobius and Ramona in the way that they buried it, Their insecurities, I
guess, in the work that we get a moment where Ramona's like, no, you betrayed me.
Like, it made so much sense that if she was clinging on to anything and
the things she clinged onto was the TVA and then found comfort in somebody else
who did the same thing to have them then turn after their crisis of faith.
It's like, yeah, I totally see where Ramona's coming from now.
So I liked that moment a lot too.
There was a part
Jude: of me, Ramona said, you know, so they had that conversation and Ramona
says, freewill, only as you said, only one person gets freewill the one in charge.
Uh, I that's where I thought you were naming king or he who must be,
who remains almost a quarter thing.
He who remained.
Um, that's what I thought you were naming him as free will.
Um, I don't, again, I've, I've tried to really stay off the philosophical.
Wrote, I'd like to talk about thinking about it philosophically.
Yes.
But like to dive too far down the road in that line was the
only one person gets freewill.
The one in charge in some way.
She's not a hundred percent wrong on that thought.
You know?
I mean, when you start talking about will like my ability to act.
And you think about to truly do that freely unencumbered or not being coerced.
She's not a hundred percent wrong on that.
And the idea of within the context of what the, what the show, uh, well,
philosophically thinking about it and the illogical thinking about it,
but also even the context of the, of what the MCU has given us know.
So I did, I found that interesting.
Um, you know, that, that line, uh, there, uh, there's also, you
know, she said Ian's a friendship.
Um, I believe that was her, right?
That wasn't Mobius.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
She, I think she said you
Jude: throw away.
Yeah.
He owns a friendship.
Yeah.
Also made me wonder how long has she actually been a part of the TVA?
Yeah.
You know, and, and I, I liked it because it also, I think, added to this idea of.
You know, he, who remains as being tired and just thinking of like
how long she's been doing this.
Trey: Yeah.
It's, it's definitely up in the air, at least for me, the context
of time with, with which those who were in the TVA are working with.
Um, cause I mean, like even low-key I think calls it out last episode
where he's like, how long has it been a week since I was just in New York?
Like, this has been a very like hectic time for him, but we, we don't
know what that time is, but right now I think that's a rabbit hole.
Jude: Yeah.
Now when she says in search of free will, right before she leaves.
Yeah.
Um, my thought was in other words, king, but at that point
it should have been obvious.
We're getting a second season because you're not entering
a character arc that way.
You've never seen that character again, like right there.
It should have been obvious
Trey: to circle back to that moment.
You know, to speak to what I was feeling with that you talked about,
um, uh, the various different ways, like, uh, she's not wrong.
The way I felt about that scene is I immediately thought of.
The moment we're Sylvie and Loki are in the throne room and they
realized that the timekeepers are fake and low-key just is exasperated.
And he's like, oh, it never ends.
Like, there's always something on top of the next.
And it's just a continuous road of something more.
And so when I heard Ramona say in search of free, will it made me feel
like it was a power grab for her to be in the place of whoever went well, we
didn't know what it, well, we didn't know it, but basically she's going
for the throne is what I took that as.
Yeah.
Jude: So, well, you know what, they could play it that way.
Um, they can play that way from a couple of different ways, um, from just have
a very vague idea of her character, but Ramona rinse layer, uh, from the comic, I
think they could easily play it that way.
Um, and just from the standpoint of she's the only one we saw.
Through when we had that flashback of Sylvie being picked up of having a
promotion from being hunter to, I guess, whatever her job was at that point.
So in that way, if she is herself trying to, I want purpose and I'm,
and this is giving me purpose.
And work their way up, you know, to meet the timekeeper himself and, and all that,
that tracks, it could be in search of freewill in search of being in charge.
Trey: Again, I'm getting a little far ahead because we don't know
there's no context, but it's, it feels like an echo of the tragedy
of king to where she thinks this is.
What's going to bring her closure.
When we saw what happened to king, he eventually gets tired of it.
It makes me think back to what I wrote.
Power cannot be the answer.
So I'm very curious to see what they're going to do
here.
Jude: Yeah.
You know what?
You brought up the I'm going to backtrack just a little bit.
You brought up this connection to king and Thanos and it didn't, it didn't grasp it.
There's this thought until just now, as you were saying that, um,
interestingly enough, like Kane, I keep going back and forth is that
he who remains her king it's he?
Who is king?
Um, is he, who is Kay.
Uh, well, you also got the sense of, he didn't do this out
of seeking power necessarily.
You know, if we're, if we're to believe his story, he did this because you know,
this is what was best for everything.
So it was kind of a sacrifice idea, you know, in a similar way,
Santos was, I'm doing this for the good of everybody, you know?
Um, whereas if Vona to, to circle it back to her vagina for Vona is, is that's her
play is a power play to take over, you know, it's two very different ideas of
why you ended up there, you know, where, you know, he, who is king, is there out
of what he believed to be a necessity to end war and have peace where hers is a.
Purpose driven, power driven, you know, play and that's assuming you're right.
And I, and I, and I think it would be fun to explore that in terms of when
he says I'm searching for free will.
That's what she's trying to search
Trey: for.
No, that's a good catch, uh, there, because there is distinct, uh,
motivations here between their place.
So, yeah, that's a, that's a very good catch sticking with this section though.
Uh, I do want to speak a little bit about Mobius there.
Isn't too much to go on again.
I think he had such a complete arc for this season last episode that
there really wasn't too much more that you could do with them here.
So, uh, all I really have to say is that I just hope we get
more Moebius here in the future.
There I'd be shocked.
Well, the thing that I feel, yeah, I'm just going to go
ahead and rip this bandaid off.
I don't know if we've set it out, right.
So you can correct me.
We have, we're getting a season two.
Like, I don't know if we've said that in this episode, but there is, there is a
recognition that things will continue.
Um, so I'm hoping in that case that yeah, Mobius does come back, but it feels like
whenever the MCU gets these big name actors, the reason they're able to get
them in is because it's a one-off thing.
I'm hoping that's not the case here with Wilson.
Jude: Yeah.
I don't think so.
Only because you know, I'm scrolling through Facebook and I see a sponsored
ad cause you know, Facebook, Facebook, and because it's my Facebook, it's a
sponsored ad for a comic book convention.
And it's about Owen Wilson.
Show it up.
And it's his first one.
Uh, I believe that was
Trey: totally unintentional by the way,
that was 100%
Jude: somebody had to do it.
Right.
Since he didn't get to
Trey: see you create a void, somebody takes the place.
Jude: Yeah.
So, so yeah, so like, I just feel like, you know, that's an indicator that yeah.
He'll be around for season two.
I hope so.
Maybe even Dr.
Strange
Trey: man, that'd be wild.
Jude: Well, cause I think, I think they confer.
Today or yesterday afternoon that Loki is going to show up in Dr.
Strange.
So that'll be really interesting.
So even if it's just a cameo, it's possible, you know what, until we see him
on a jet ski, his arc is not complete.
Trey: Yeah.
That's the line in the sand that we're drawing here, but now start circling
back to what I wanted to say is.
Uh, what little I was able to get out of the scenes of the Mobius is there is so
much righteous anger in his voice, or when he speaking to is like, you know, my,
my, my standards are a little bit higher than yours, as much as I'd like to burn
you, you know, I, I don't want to do that.
And he was just controlling all that, that feeling.
And I think it speaks to his character that even after justifiably, we could
probably root for him, pruning Ramona.
He still trying to help her.
And I liked that nugget that we got out.
The Mobius has scenes this episode.
Jude: I wonder, what are they.
Somehow connected before becoming variants.
Trey: I, I really, I really want to go out on that limb and say yes, because
I thought I thought the pin and I can't remember where I picked up this theory.
It could be from other podcasts or the sub Reddit, but I thought the pin
was going to be like, the moment it clicks for Mobius, where he realizes
he was a teacher in a past life or something with that high school.
And I was genuinely shocked.
It was her Vona I think you might be onto something that if we
find out that he was there too.
Jude: Yeah, I bet.
So because it had such a strong connection, you know?
Yeah.
I'm fighting my urge.
Cause I've always, I've said on this podcast a number of times that I'm not a
big, like shipping people kind of thing.
And so I like, like, I'm trying to fight that urge of like, like,
is there, is there enough in text thing to actually say that.
That is their backstory and Raleigh, what we'll get to see,
or am I just wishful thinking it?
Trey: Mm, there is.
I don't know if I were to go in the, the, the shipping category, but there
is definitely a strong connection because I mean, what I was going to
say is like, they keep saying Ian's a friendship and I know outside the
context of the timeline and in the TVA time is a very nebulous concept.
So who knows how long they've been doing this, but I think it's also the show
kind of hinting at like, oh, they've they are connected even before this.
So I don't know.
I, I don't know.
I guess, I guess that's my answer, right?
Yeah.
Jude: Well, we'll have to wait and see.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
They keep bringing us back.
Trey: I know.
I just want to make the podcast, right.
So yeah, one last thing that I wanted to bring up in this section is.
Uh, you know, I, I do find it a little funny.
Like I'm glad it happened because it's a great moment.
But when B 15 lures, the other minute men into discovering a Ramona's variant, it
did feel a little odd that they're willing to prune an entire universe just to make
a, a point for a few of them to see.
Yeah.
Jude: See, I didn't read it that way.
Like at this point, I'm not sure Moebius and B 15 prunes
that prunes, that universe,
Trey: just to add to that caveat, like to add a caveat.
I know we're moments away from the multi-verse breaking.
Cause we know what happens with Sylvia and low-key, but in there from
their perspective, like, it felt like that's what they were gambling with.
But I see your read on that as well.
Jude: I understand what you're saying.
They're gambling with because that's clearly.
Like the only way you find B 15 is that's creating a branch.
But at this point, I don't know if Moebius knowing what he knows and knowing
what she knows would prune that brand,
Trey: I guess, for my, my perspective.
And I, I, I'm probably getting the weeds here is what do you do with that person
who has witnessed this militia type come in and start spouting about the timeline
and how, you know, they're variants?
Like, what is their life like now?
Jude: Well, maybe it shows that's just how much they don't like Ravenna.
They want to ruin her life here.
Um, already, you know, it's
Trey: a never ending cycle.
Maybe that's why the original
Jude: revote have found comfort.
You know what, that's why you gotta be nice to people.
Cause you never know when they're going to be very into join the TVA and come back.
At some random time in your life and you're going to find out that
it's all just a simulation tray.
Gotcha.
Trey: Right before you got to that point, I was just about to say,
I'm assuming we're going to be doing this podcast for a long time.
I need a book of Jude wisdoms from the inside.
This is why you have to be nice to people.
You never know where they're going to be American.
Jude: No, I can turn into a phone and come back and get you, send you down a line.
That's it.
If I have any trouble with students, I'm just going to say, I'm going
to, I'm going to, I'm going to prune you and send you to a liar.
That's that's what I'm gonna
Trey: do.
You should get like a mock prune stick.
Like, you know how some teachers will like tap on a desk and people's attention.
You just pop that out and tap on the desk.
Right?
Oh man.
Well, unless we've got any more to say, uh, I think we can move
into the next section, right?
Jude: Sounds like a plan.
So
Trey: perfect.
So this section is called the choice and this is going to be dealing with
everything with king laying out before Loki and Sylvie, the possibility that
they could either kill him and unleash him multi-verse or take over for him
and rule the one sacred timeline.
So we're back to you.
Is there any place we'd like.
Jude: I think this is where I want to start the cause there's a lot
of, there's a lot to this section.
Cause it, cause this, this episode was very much like episode three,
it was very dialogue driven.
Um, in fact my note says, um, this episode mirrors episode three in particular, the
moment at the door when they're trying to figure out what to do and Sylvie's
expecting Loki's advice and he's gonna kind of watching her lead, whereas they
both wanted to lead when it was at that, that, uh, door and momentous, you know?
And so I really liked how that mirrored each other.
And also for me, the read I got out of it, Sylvie, I think was, you know, she's like
I've been working for this all my life and give me a minute, the way I read that
when she was struggling already with this.
Okay.
Then what?
Like I've been doing this all my life and when I what's next.
You know, what, what happens next?
And.
And I mean, I mean, her motivation has vengeance.
Right, right.
And we see that a lot.
Like when you finally get your vengeance, you've been driven and
consumed by it for so much, then you get this what's next feeling.
Right.
And you, and you're left with this emptiness.
And I think immediately.
Very early in the episode.
That's what Sylvie, that's how I took it.
She was wrestling with that and it pairs
Trey: so well with last episode, where again, I mentioned that
it was a punctuation point on Loki's growth as well, and that we
would see a shift towards Sylvie.
You know, Loki has the moment last week where he's like, you know, then I can
rule and then I'll finally be happy.
Like he's, he understands that that's not, what's going to bring him closure.
And it is very, I didn't pick up on it.
And I'm glad that you are spotlighting it here about it being the start of the
struggle for Sylvie, but it, it just makes it that much more heartbreaking
to know that she, you know, we see by the end, she couldn't get past that
driven by revenge feeling and to see her struggle with the beginning as hard.
Yeah.
Jude: So what do you think of king here?
And I know he hasn't been introduced yet.
Ms.
Minot shows up says once, once the offer.
Yeah.
And I was curious, like, just note taking, you know, in order does that, because
he's afraid of what the two of them are capable of or is this just a trick, right?
Then he appeals to their desires.
You can be together, you can rule, we'll put you back on the timeline.
You can, you know, have the infinity gauntlet, you can
kill Thanos, all of this stuff.
I I'm a little confused.
I'm not confused.
I can progression to the story, I get that.
Right.
But then as we learned, king knew that they weren't going to take that.
Um, so, so in that sense, there's one or two ways I can, I can go with that.
A it's just the story, right?
And we're, re-introducing Ms.
Smith.
Um, and don't think too hard about it, or he who must be king, maybe had a hope
that they would stray and take the deal.
Like he was looking for a replacement anyways.
And if he knew, cause he pulled out the script, right.
He knew what was going to happen up to a certain point.
Maybe he was genuinely given him that option with the
hope that they would take it.
Even knowing that he wouldn't.
Trey: You know, I I'm right there with you because that was one of
the things I wrote down too, is that it's interesting that the first test
that Loki and Sylvia have is that Ms.
Minutes, TIMPs them with everything they've ever wanted
and they make it pass that test.
But it doesn't make sense because miss minutes is
essentially an extension of king.
And if he knows everything and knows that they would get to him,
what's the purpose of tempting them?
The answer that I have, whether it's his suffice or not, is he
has that line when he is straight up talking to low-key and Sylvie.
And he says, you know, oh, you know, you can't just get to the end.
You have to go through it all for this moment for our quest here at the end.
Right.
So I think almost in the same way that Dr.
Strange wasn't entirely sure they were right in the right universe whenever he
tells Tony, if I tell you it won't happen, This was King's final proving ground for
this being the low-key and Sylvie that he needed to offer them the position of.
The sacred timeline
Jude: keeper.
Yeah.
That's a good way to think of it.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I mean that Kwan that's a quandary or that,
that gets wrestled with a lot.
Uh, this whole, I think I mentioned it episode one, this whole idea for
knowledge, you know, what is this?
You get this whole, what's the balance between some, someone like king and
being like king or whatever, uh, that has all this knowledge, but yet, you
know, up until that point, Loki thought of himself as having free will and you
know, and, and you get that, the big thing that, that they wrestled with
in episode one and came back, right.
This predestination and in free.
And, and I, and I mentioned earlier, yeah, the, the only, the one in
charge, so to speak is my podcast.
And you can't see the air quotes that I just did.
Um, but they're there.
So just imagine, you know, um, you know, is that tension of they know
everything and the idea is, you know, like, you know what they're
going to do, but you're hopeful and giving them a choice and that they're
going to choose something different.
Um, and so, and so that's, that's kind of the way I went with.
You know, the, like he was hopeful that they, that they would make that choice.
Um, but I think your reads much better.
Well, I mean, it fits, it fits better.
Story-wise and, and, you know, and story circle wise and stuff.
Um, I think, I think mine might be a little bit more philosophical
or ideologically bent than story-wise if that makes sense.
No, that
Trey: makes sense.
Yeah, it's just, it's hard because you can get a little too meta with
this, because think back to the bonus episode we did with Rob and Jamison
Jamison pointed out so wonderfully that at the end of the day, these are
written by someone, you know, there is a predetermined right need to get there.
So we're trying to exist in the space of quote unquote, what really happened versus
what really happened in the writers room.
So it's like you can get in these infinite loops of, of rabbit holes.
No.
And
Jude: I'm glad you brought that up.
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought that back up.
Trey: You know, I talked about the, uh, episode last week is the
one that broke me and helped me start to really zone in Jamison.
Might've been the first domino push helped me get to getting out of
Jude: the weekend.
I'll make, I'll make sure he knows that.
Yeah.
Trey: Oh man, you know, sticking in this section of the choice.
Uh, another thing that I wanted to circle in on was this interaction between Loki
and Kang, where Loki straight up asks him, then what are you so afraid of?
And it builds into that moment where it's just like a silent
contemplation and Kang just goes me.
And we've talked about it so many times throughout the entirety of these Disney
plus series, you know, there's nothing scarier than seeing what scares the
person you're afraid of and getting this insight of Kang, being very concerned
about the idea of his other less than pleasant variants is it's humbling.
And I think they've done such a great lead-up to this idea of the
multi-verse with the way that we've seen.
Multiple low keys and they've played around and educated us that it lands so
wonderfully, at least for me, that he, who remains is afraid of other versions of it.
Jude: Well, and I think, I think Loki is in a unique position to have that
conversation because he is encountered multiple versions of himself.
And, and I think that's what helped make, I mean, Loki says like they Loki
and Sylvia have this conversation.
He's like, you believe him.
And he's like, look, he's a liar.
And so am I, and I, and, and so he's like, I, I know a liar when I see one
and he's not lying kind of idea, but also that response of, um, those other
variants of myself and I'm afraid of them.
Loki.
I mean, you saw when we talked about the look on Loki's face,
when president low-key came in and betrayed boastful low-key and then
resident Loki's army for char retrade, president low-key and just the look
on their face and that realization of like, man, am I really like this?
And so him being able to see and what he could be, right.
The potential in classic low-key I'm gonna throw it out there.
The potential of alligator low-key as well.
Um, you know, like, like, I mean, he's alligator, Loki's pretty chill, right.
Trey: Um, you know, just bit of handoff, but yeah,
Jude: chill.
Hey, I'm going to sit here in my tub of water, doing what I need to do.
And sometimes that means biting off a hand.
Um, just saying, uh, but no, like he's more
Trey: Jude wisdoms,
Jude: but yeah, he gets to, he gets to see that.
So, so in that way, I really liked that they paired that conversation together
because, because it's believable, like, man, he's I saw my variant.
That was terrible.
Trey: And you know, his leverage against Sylvia and low-key with
this idea of multiple versions of him, he's, he's resigned.
He doesn't care if they kill them because some other version
of him will end up back right.
Where he is and things get back to normal or, you know, they carry on his work.
So he's not, he's not worried about that, but he does want it.
If you kill me, there are, there are far worse versions of me to have to
deal with, and there's no justification for it because I, again, his, his
philosophy of there can only be one timeline it's just plain wrong.
But, you know, I hinted in the pre spoiler section that this
is the MCU bay brew thing.
They're shot when I'm imagining and a metagame and a lot here, I'm
imagining at some point we're going to get a securing of the freewill
and staving off a multi-verse war.
And this is, this is that seed that I was talking about, that we can, we can trace
back of making it that much more rewarding when we finally do, because they have set
up this idea of it's almost the futility of like what choice they have here.
There's always going to be a worse king.
It just, it makes the potential for what's to come that much more exciting.
Yeah.
Jude: Another thing that I really like that we.
Did here calling the section the choice.
Um, there's okay.
So I'm gonna kind of split some ideas.
I have some thoughts that go with this and I'm gonna leave for stray
thoughts because I made a promise to myself to not get too bogged
down into the mechanics of the show.
Right.
And just enjoy it.
But he says, king says we crossed, we just crossed the threshold.
Right?
Yeah.
And he says, I don't know what's going to happen.
I haven't known for the past 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 seconds, which within the
mechanics and rules of the show, Loki and Sylvie, when they have the choice
are truly exercising free will because, you know, if king was, you know, he,
who D we're not going to use his name, but remains, um, knew everything, but
then ran out of that knowledge then.
Yeah.
Like he has no idea what they're going to do and it's truly a choice.
And I really liked it.
That they found a way the writer show runner found a way to, well, we've
mentioned that, um, I don't remember if it was on pod or off pod when
we were talking with Robin Jamison.
And we mentioned that back in episode one, this whole idea, what it was on bond.
Cause you just brought it up with Jamison said to, to an extent we
know it's predetermined because it's written like a metal, but they did it.
They, they found a really clever way to take that element out, you know?
Cause cause whatever locator, silvery, it doesn't matter who kills Cain.
If you haven't removed that for knowledge from cane.
Yeah, it doesn't feel as weighty.
It doesn't feel like even the person who knows everything doesn't know in
this moment what's about to happen.
Uh, and, and, and I, I really liked that they were able to do that and set that up
Trey: and playing off that.
Yeah.
I think what makes it work so well is because he doesn't know.
And they made such a big deal of, oh, we've crossed the threshold.
And they did such incredible work of like zooming in, on him
watching the fear in his face.
And then it changes to giddiness if they didn't do such a great job of
establishing, you know, I mentioned the boredom with all the power and
all that knowledge and the, the weariness of having all of that.
I don't think this moment works as well as it does because he is genuinely giddy and
excited, especially once Sylvia and Loki start fighting because he doesn't know.
And, and, you know, I imagine if I had access to all knowledge of all time,
and that was just at my fingertips, I would become numb to it too.
And so this moment we're in breaks for him is just so wonderful.
Yeah,
Jude: I, I, my note was king had a sense of relief.
Like you can get this sense of relief and he picked up that object and tested
it and dropped it like, you're right.
You said giddy, but you know, um, yeah, it, it was really man.
They did a lot with this, with this character.
And just one episode,
Trey: you know, we already had the section or we talked about he who
remains, I don't know if we said it.
Jonathan majors is amazing in this role.
He, I mean, he essentially shoulders the entire episode because so
much of it is him in conversation.
Yeah.
And you're just to echo what you're saying, they're doing
so much in this episode.
Jude: Oh, what is the show that he's in love craft?
Have you seen
Trey: that?
No, but it's immediately skyrocketed to my, probably won't watch that.
Jude: That was a dumb question on my part, but there's never,
you never know, like there's
Trey: a chance, just a bit of context.
This isn't a Dishon Jonathan majors.
The probably won't watch list says more about me than the quality of the show.
Oh yes.
Jude: Well, and I haven't seen it.
My wife hasn't seen it while my wife.
Um, I read that over spring break just recently.
Um, you know, and the book is I've learned that reading books and buying
books are two separate hobbies.
Um, and I'm definitely in the buying.
Yeah.
And I'm not as good of a reader as I used to be.
Uh, and that book is sitting there and I'm, and I'm gonna keep eyeing it of like,
I was going to actually read some of it yesterday and I chose to be responsible.
And I started reading my textbook for next year, but yeah, but I need
to start reading more and that's, that's like right there sitting
on the shelf and so she's read it.
So that's.
Trey: I'll get to it eventually along with
Jude: code wars and bad batch and the SIM Simpsons, listen,
Trey: listen, there's a lot fighting for my attention.
It's hard to know, you know, it feels like we're about to start talking
about the confrontation between Sylvia and Loki in this choice section.
So I do want to say this before we move into that, you know, I talked about
earlier, how there's this feeling that I'm picking up on from king about being.
Fed up with people not appreciating his work.
There, there's a moment where Kang has an outburst against Sylvie and he
straight up calls her a hypocrite one.
He's like, you know, you're a hypocrite grow up.
And like, he just lobbies insults at her.
It's ironic that he tells her to grow up when he's the
reason she couldn't peacefully.
Like all of this is is happening because she, he took away her
ability to live a normal life.
So to have that thrown back in her face one, I can imagine
what that feels like for her.
And two, it's an insight into his worldview of like, I don't even think
he appreciates the level of what he's doing to these innocent universe.
Jude: Well, no, it goes, it goes back to your, your theonomous comparison.
It's you're not appreciating what I did in staving.
All this multi-verse multi-vessel war right now.
So yeah, so it's but I mean, you're right.
Like he clearly did.
Have any empathy for what he's done.
Yeah.
So that you're right.
You're a hundred
Trey: percent right on that.
Yeah.
And, and to circle back, there's one more moment I forgot to bring up earlier
is if we see there's a moment where king is serving them coffee or tea or
something, and he's being incredibly cordial, but in that hospitality,
he brings one of the cups to locate and he's like, low-key and he brings
another one to Sylvie and he goes Loki.
And he seems to emphasize it a lot.
And it speaks to, he thinks he's doing the right thing, but that disregard for
the individuality of these two distinct characters is very telling about who is.
Jude: And it helped me out is this, after they crossed the threshold,
Trey: the moment I talked about was before the threshold, that's
why I was circling back to it.
The hypocrite I believe is after
Jude: the threshold, right?
This one, talk about the hypocrite hypocrite, because that's that's.
The other thing is I have a note that says how freeing that must be for king to let
someone else decide his fate, rather than deciding, deciding the fate of others.
But that's also maybe part of his reaction.
He's so used to people making the decisions.
He has paved the way for them.
And now that he doesn't know what they're going to do, you know, his expectations
are you're, you should do this.
And so he's like, no, I'm not gonna, and, and he doesn't know how to
Trey: handle that.
It's like arguing with a toddler
Jude: and yeah, not just, it's not just toddler stray, not just toddlers.
Trey: It feels a little
Jude: pointed, not shows you.
Okay.
Oh man, all the teacher listeners are nodding their head.
Trey: You steer that course.
I want to dive into it, but obviously that's your fate more than mine.
Jude: I still tell my juniors a story of like one year I had two
juniors in my class, get in a fight over a chair, over a desk.
And I'm like, why?
I'm like, come on, man.
Y'all are juniors.
It's like literally two nights ago, my kids who were.
You know, younger than they are now.
It's, they're, they're really young.
It's like they fought, they fought over her chair at dinner.
Like, that's my shit.
What are y'all doing?
Y'all are 68 and 70.
It still happens.
Trey: I'm far removed from school.
At this point.
I have no recollection of a chair ever being fight worthy in any
of this schools that I attended.
You're
Jude: saying it still happens.
And you know what, I'm sure you know, I say that, but at the same time, I'm sure
that's, that's the one realization I have.
I'm sure I was no different as a student.
Oh
Trey: man.
All right.
Well getting back to the episode, uh, I, you know, I talked about it.
It feels like one of the last things we have to talk about here is the
confrontation between Loki and Sylvie.
And the first thing I wrote down is this has to be the worst breakup of all time.
Right?
Nothing else.
It'd be interesting.
The track through all media, how many devastating breakups there have been?
Well,
Jude: and we also, because of the nature of the TVA, they could have been
together five minutes and they could have been together a hundred years.
So we have no idea.
Trey: Oh really?
But no, I it's.
I think the thing I, I came away from this confrontation is that it's so
heartbreaking that we see Loki grow from where he did in the movies.
And then go beyond that, by understanding, knowing why he did what he did and why it
was wrong and is still betrayed by someone he truly and selflessly cared about.
And it's, I dunno, it was just really, really hard to watch this final scene.
Jude: You know what this was.
I think the best fight scene to choreography wise, because, because the
choreography in this fight in this, it had a purpose and not just like, oh,
you know, we have to have a fight scene.
Cause it's the finale.
But even the moves and the way they fought with each other and the things
they did all told the story of the two of them, because neither one, like they
were both in at least my watch of it, you know, and I'm not a sword fighter, but it
felt very defensive from both ends know.
They didn't really feel like either one of them was really
trying to get at each other.
Trey: It's like that moment in civil war when Natasha and Clint
are fighting and they're like, Hey, we're still friends, right?
Yeah.
Well, it depends on how hard you hit me.
Like, that's the same level of emotions that are wrapped up in this.
And I'm so glad you brought up the fight because like,
that's what I wrote down too.
I enjoy this fight scene a lot more than any of the other ones.
And it's because there are emotional stakes attached to it.
And I think it is important to note what you said, that there's a purpose and
they're telling a story through the fight.
And I think paired that with the emotion and it just makes
all the difference in the world.
You know, what it honestly reminded me of, and I hope that this
doesn't defeat the purpose of it.
It reminded me of the fight between Obi one and Anacon a lot in the prequels.
Because it's that wrapped up of the emotional stakes, but to getting them and,
and like, for as much as I don't like the prequels, I did like that fight a lot.
And I just, I was, I don't know.
I would just recalling that fight when I was watching this one as well.
Well, you know, and as much as we've been, what would say Duncan on
Jude: star, as you say, what would say the prequels for you is
finishing the clone wars, but okay.
Oh my God.
I'm just saying it makes, it makes those, it fills up the move
what's missing in the movies.
It makes them better.
Trey: We've got on so many tangents, but I'm going to say this real quick.
This is a slight game of throne spoilers, but it season one.
So everybody's seen it at this point.
I had a friend who I was like, dude, you should really watch game of Thrones.
This is so up your alley.
And he told me, he's like, nah, unless there's dragons
in it, I don't want to see it.
And since this was season one and they weren't part of the promotional material,
I was torn between like spoiling it for him or not spoiling it for him.
But I totally understand what you mean about like it's, you would
love this and you're just not doing
so for all the people who want me to watch star wars.
I understand.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and I go back to the fight real quick.
Something that low-key did right there at the last minute, the very last thing
low-key puts himself between him and Kane.
Right.
And if I remember right, he wasn't armed and it just, you
saw, we saw it in civil war.
We saw it in winter soldier.
We see it in return to the jet.
I, this whole.
Getting away from, and that's, I think the distinction between Loki and Sylvie
and what, the growth that we've seen of low-key and, and it's low-key right.
That's who we expected to follow.
The, the majority of the growth should come from him, but this ability to get
away from this redemptive redemption through violence, instead of this
redemptive violence, they was able to lay down his sword and put himself.
I mean, ultimately, you know, put himself between the person who pruned them
in the beginning or one of, you know, well, I mean, we now know, and kind of
talked about why that road was paved, but in the episode one, he didn't know
that, you know, and he came around to the point of like, I'm going to put
myself between you and he who remains, uh, it was such a powerful moment.
Trey: Yeah.
And you know, you're speaking to the, the volumes that speaks of Loki.
It speaks to Sylvia as well, because she is restrained in that moment when
it's, low-key like she's coming down with all her force because it's king.
And as soon as Loki appears, she stops at right as his neck.
And it was like, it was just like, whoa, like it, it hit
Jude: me hard.
Well, in low-key here shows empathy.
It was such a wonderful moment.
Uh, and then, and coming into that moment, there was a very effective Zack
Snyder slow-mo Hey credit, where credit's due slow-mo can be very effective.
And it was right there invented by Zack Snyder.
There was no slow-mo before then.
Um, but yeah, before, before Zach and after Zach, um, and then
of course they have the kids.
Yeah,
Trey: and I I'm, I'm completely fine with it at this point.
How do you feel about it?
Cause I know we both had issues in it with it a few episodes ago.
Jude: At this point I just kind of came to terms with like, if it's a,
if it's, I'm just using my own head.
Uh, have they came from different universes ish kind of thing.
Um, cause it just, again, going off of what Rob Logan said when he was on
our show and some other things of just having to let go of the mechanics of
how that didn't make sense to me, you know, um, and truly the mechanics of
like, how are you getting all these different Loki's from the same timeline?
You know what I mean?
Like, like it just, it, like, if you're, if you're holding one anyways,
not don't want to go down the road.
Uh, but the big, the big thing I promised myself, I wouldn't
get bogged down on that.
But the big thing I got out of it was, was the spin.
Like it was almost like it was an apology.
The kiss itself was like an apology, um, because she spins him around and
that's the point where he sin, where, where she sends Loki off, you know?
And, and so like, it it's that spin is almost like out of dramatic effect, but
at the same time, It's it wasn't, it was strategic to like, get you out of the way
Trey: it's a literal twist.
Yeah.
I appreciate the show so much for it because I like the way you
described it as like low-key showing empathy, because what does he say?
I don't care about a throne.
I care that you're okay.
And it's just like this moment where you think they're finally on the same page,
we know low-key is capable of changing.
We're now seeing Sylvie capable of change.
Literal twist.
No, here's your heartbreak.
Yeah.
And so it's just done.
So
Jude: yeah, I put low-key as heartbroken and it was sad to see low-key heartbroken.
I felt for him.
Trey: Yeah.
I do want to, I feel like we're tiptoeing into the next section, but
I do want to circle back to something leading up to the kiss where there's
this moment where Sylvie just says, why aren't we seeing this the same way?
And I wanted to highlight this because we went through so much work to prove
the point that people can change.
And then the biggest moment of the season hinges on people being
reinforced that maybe they couldn't after all we know it's not true.
And we know that they can, but the face of futility, they still
revert back to those impulses.
There is like, I'm frustrated because I know they're capable of it.
But this goes back in line with what I was saying about a shot call from the MCU.
I think that this is part of that experience because as massive
as a scale is, if we're going to surmount this mountain, it has to
feel impossible to make it that much more rewarding when we do.
And so, you know, I'm left with the question, can the MCU do that?
Well, this is, this is what the next phase is going to be about.
Right.
And I, again, genuinely excited to see that all play out.
Jude: Yeah.
Well we think through the show as well, Sylvie didn't get the opportunities
of growth the way located SIF.
Right.
And having to go through that and, you know, be well Sylvie.
Didn't get to watch her story with, Moebius go into the timeline, you
know, and on the, on the film reel.
Sylvie didn't get the little time loop torture thing.
Uh, and so, so there was so much, and so I found it interesting that
at the end, that expectation, they were able to set up that Sylvie was
going to have some sort of growth.
Yeah.
That, that really, they didn't lay the groundwork
Trey: for.
Well, I mean, and it's like, cause you talk about Sylvie.
Didn't get to watch her story.
Sylvia doesn't have a right.
Like she didn't, she didn't get that chance.
Yeah.
I like like the,
Jude: her, her, you know, her foundation.
Well, let's put it this way.
Like her foundation of who she is was always revenge driven, taken down the TVA,
whereas Loki, while he did you know who he is, I betray people looking for power.
He had even of this low-key didn't experience it.
He got to see it.
Yeah.
He got an opportunity to see through lady SIF, the, um, the pain he
caused and how much DOR Odin Frigga did care about him and then, and
Trey: Mobius.
Yeah.
You know, I, I do want to, to just state, like, I don't, like, I totally
understand Sylvie, like being driven to this, this point of revenge.
And I think the thing that I wrote down is what's what makes this so hard is
that this is all stacked against Sylvie.
Not only in the ways that you just described there with not
having the story, not having those reinforced moments of realizing.
Uh, there was more to the path that she was on, but it's no option that
was given to her, feels like the right move, whether she kills Kang
and gets that hollow closure, or she takes over with Loki and continues
to enforce this lack of free will.
There is no road that I think is the right one.
It's just what, which road is the harder one.
And I think that the tragedy of it is we see the hardest road chosen, chosen.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, the other thing I find fascinating or not fascinating, it's just tragic.
Uh, you brought it up.
So fan theory that you saw on Reddit as to why, and I don't know if
it's been confirmed yet, why Sylvia was pruned, but if her nexus of.
Was idolizing the Valkyrie and not going to be self interested
like that was taken from her.
And she became in that way.
Self-interested all the way to the end.
Trey: Yeah.
It's, it's an inverse of our two characters.
Yeah.
You know, I think we both multiple times have come back to this tragedy
word and I think that that's a great summation of what this is.
Cause man, was this a hard episode?
Yeah.
Well, unless we have anything more to talk about in this choice section, uh,
I think we can move into the next one.
Jude: Well, I will say this one, last thing, Trey, go for it.
You can be happy now that there's multiple timelines, multiple universes, actually,
which means there is a universe out there.
Where Sam Wilson didn't take on a truck.
Trey: I, that was, I watched us walk all the way down there.
I knew what was coming
Jude: you're right.
You're a, and John Walker still captain America.
So
Trey: that's not what it don't put that.
I want to say this there's been multiple occasions where I have
been Funko, pop hunting, and I have seen countless John Walker.
Funko pops and I can not bring myself to pull the trigger.
Jude: Oh
Trey: man.
All right.
You done?
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's move into the next section.
So we're going to move into the next section, which is called,
where do we go from here?
And this is going to entail this entire last act from the
moment that Sylvie pushes Loki through the portal killing king.
And we see the effects that low-key discovers as he goes through the TVA.
So starting with me again, I just, I have to emphasize, because this was the
first thing that I thought of whenever I had my initial reactions, seeing the
entirety of this final act play out and we get that big moment where Loki
looks up and sees the statue of king.
I have not felt that pit in my stomach since the moment that
Thanos snapped and infinity war.
It, of course, like I'm talking about the moment where Loki sees the statue, but
it starts from the moment we see Sylvie kill king all the way through there.
And it was just like, that's powerful.
I, you know, I talked about how after seeing Avengers end game.
I didn't know if I would ever get a moment as close to watching
cat lift the hammer as I did.
And then far from home came out and I saw the mysterial projection thing and was
like, wow, it's crazy that they were able to get that close to that feeling for me.
I didn't know if we'd ever get a point where something could be that heavy of
fan of snapping, but they did it again.
And I'm just continually, continuously impressed by the way.
Yeah.
Listen,
Jude: my expectation was he was going to come back to the TVA and disarray and
I don't know where Loki is right now.
Neither do I.
I really don't.
I will say that that moment where you go and you have Kings statue,
they reminded me of the ending of the planet of the apes now.
And I'm thinking of the original planet of the apes.
I am actually have not seen any the most recent ones.
Um, they're really good.
They're really solid.
Um, no, I hear they are.
And I, and I know I shouldn't.
Uh, but I'm thinking about that end, where you get the statue of Liberty,
you know, uh, I it's okay to spoil planet of the apes from the seventies.
Right.
Trey: I would say, okay.
So that moment has been spoofed so many
Jude: times, so yeah, like it reminds me, give me that,
which I really, really enjoyed.
Um, but yeah, like I, but it also left me with where not
when, but where is he lightly?
So, okay.
Again, let's buy into the world and he, she hasn't killed Kane yet when
she pushed him through with the portal.
However it wasn't the same temp pad that she's using from the
TVA it's what king would use.
And that already started to show the sacred timeline splintering.
So we can't be sure that he actually got shoved into the same universe.
Trey: So I just to interrupt, I had a question that I, I was going to ask later,
but I think it fits in perfectly here.
So I'm gonna go ahead and ask it.
We see a moment after Sylvie kills king where Mobius and B 15 are looking at
the monitor as the timeline splits.
And they're like, okay, I guess there's no going back from her.
And then we cut to Loki.
He has his scene and it, it ends with him getting to Moebius and be 15.
And we learn, they don't know who he is.
And this is now the universe where king is a lot more front and center.
Are we to read that as two different sets of Moebius and be 15 or like,
cause I'm right there with you.
My question is like, where is Loki?
And I think if we can get maybe an answer of that, that might help clarify things.
If this,
Jude: if of Christopher Nolan made this, it's definitely two different sets
going in the same direction from the opposite side.
No, like I, I don't know my first watch until they didn't recognize him.
This was the same one.
But now I'm not sure.
Trey: Well, because I think that's by design.
They want you to feel that way.
But now I don't know.
It's, it'll be interesting to see if we have two sets of, of them at play,
especially going into the next season.
I do want to, I like this as well.
And this was something that was brought up in the discord by aeroplane
that I really, really enjoyed.
He had this really long write-up.
That was awesome.
So if you're in the discord, you should check it out.
But the summation of it was him detailing how there are echoes of this
and Avengers in game and specifically, uh, what I liked about it was, you
know, we see where Sylvie gets her revenge and immediately after killing
him, you know, Kang said, see you soon.
And it's just kind of like this very harrowing sendoff, you know, it's supposed
to be this, this, this closure moment, but Sylvie, like the music's quiet, it's just
kind of an empty room and she backs up and she kind of just falls to the ground.
It feels like an echo of what Thor went through when he beheaded Thanos.
And it's like, yes, you did the thing.
You beat the bad guy, but you can't, you can't reverse the consequences.
And so that's just an interesting parallel between this and a vendor's end game.
Because again, this feels so much like setting up the next big, bad,
and I like that there are echoes, but between the time, and I have to ask
Jude: this question in the discord, but I'm going to ask you this as well.
Are we also, or is this, is this thought also saying that in that
moment Sylvie realized what she did and, and maybe he says she shouldn't.
Yeah.
Trey: I don't know if it's, she shouldn't have, I don't know if she comes to that
realization that she shouldn't have done it, but I do think there's definitely
a feeling of why am I not happy?
Because if this is the thing you've been working to, to
fall to the ground like that.
And just that, that it's I guess, because it's that, that empty space
and the lack of music that just makes me really feel like Sylvie is unsure.
Yeah.
But what about you?
How did you read?
I don't know.
Jude: I really, I think, I think honestly, my focus was, was more on Loki and the
TVA and so, yeah, I'm not sure how I thought of what I thought of Sylvia,
Trey: I guess, because I was already on that feeling of revenge being
corrosive from last episode, I just felt a little bit more keyed
into that final scene with silver.
Like that, that's what that feeling of like, why am I not happy after doing?
And again, we talked about it earlier, is that echo of Loki from last episode,
and then I'll finally be happy.
Well, you
Jude: know what, and it might be, it might be that it might be just what you were
saying, how the revenge is corrosive.
Um, and maybe the realization is not that I shouldn't have done it from
the multi-vessel bore standpoint, but maybe it's this realization of.
Because I wasn't able to trust what did, what did I have to give up
to achieve this in terms of Loki?
Trey: Yeah, I think that's a really good call, especially given how much trust
is a reoccurring theme among the series.
You know, you talked about how you were more focused on Loki in this,
um, you know, one small thing I have to add is that again, the pit of my
stomach feeling Loki says everything without saying anything and the scene
where he's just kind of staring off.
And it reminded me a lot of the end of infinity war where Steve kind of falls
to the ground and just goes, oh God, like that realization of like we lost.
Jude: Yeah.
Like that, that I think I, that I definitely picked up on.
Trey: Yeah.
So what were your feelings on that?
On the low-key side of this final act?
Jude: You know, I, Hey, I thought it was interesting.
Just again how heartbroken he was and, you know, like, like,
cause he finally, you know, learns his lesson so to speak, right.
Changes becomes better, does the right thing.
And in doing that, you know, he loses something that he wants and in, and
that's gotta be really hard for him.
It was my thought.
I'm finally got to a place where I'm doing the right thing.
I know why I did the things I did.
I know I'm not doing that anymore, but yet I lose.
Right.
Like I I'm I'm right.
And that's just, yeah, it was just tragic.
This was a really tragic episode.
You can come back to that word.
Trey: If we had a word cloud of this episode, tragic is
definitely the biggest one.
Jude: As you say second biggest clone wars, but okay, come on.
No, but yeah, you're right.
If were cloud definitely.
I think.
You know, um, would be right there.
Trey: No, we're getting a season two at this point, and I like the
way you framed it, that like Loki lesson learned, did the thing he
was supposed to do and still failed.
I think that's just such a natural progression of where we go from here
where this character is learning that despite it not working out, like he would
have hoped he still did the right thing.
So he gets to, to hopefully learn to just continue doing that.
Even if it doesn't play out.
Like you'd like, if that makes sense, but yeah, I think that's going to
do it for this section, uh, which leaves us with our stray thoughts.
So, Jude, do you have any stray thoughts of this episode?
Jude: Thoughts?
See, I love the, I'm just gonna say the captain Peggy song playing with all the
sound bites, the vision quote was great, uh, coming out of Wanda vision, um,
that whole sequence of visually getting from there to the title, to where the
Manor was, the castle, the Citadel, I think is where they were calling it.
Um, that reminded me of 2001 space Odyssey, uh, which I
really, really enjoy that movie.
That was really cool.
Um, I think they visually there'd be on time and they visually
represented it really well.
Uh, so I really liked that.
Um, when Kane was, oh, uh, let me do this.
It's kind of out of order.
It's not sequential when king was quick.
I love the explanation of why he was able to move so fast.
Um, there's a fan theory floating out there, uh, that I, that I love.
So I hope this is true.
Um, that king was eating an apple and they have this whole, an apple
a day, keeps the doctor away.
Meaning Dr.
Strange, um, you know, when they first got in, there was a shattered statue.
I'm curious about what the status, the shattered statue was.
There's only one.
Um, you know, as you said, sometimes the curtains are blue, sometimes
they're not, that was very intentional.
Uh, so I'm curious to what that, what that means, uh, TVA, is that a necessarily lie?
I don't know.
It's interesting way to look at it.
Uh, now I'm going to go ahead and jump into the weeds and get
bogged down on the mechanics.
If he knows all and sees all, how does this knowledge run out?
Shouldn't he have known that his knowledge was going to run out.
Like it, it felt like surprise and it also just felt.
Well, I already mentioned it needed to happen because Loki and Sylvie
needed to be able to make the choice.
Right.
It did feel very dais ex Mokena for the story.
It was just like, like, oh, we're just going to have it run out, you know?
And, and so again, getting bogged down in the mechanics of it, um, you know, so
like, and I, and I get that, uh, but that did take a little bit out of it for me.
Um, you know, he's like, he realizes, we just crossed the threshold is
like, again, wouldn't he have already have known that or expected it,
and it didn't come across that way.
To me, it came across as like, you know, um, I don't know, uh,
they, they kind of dealt with the multi-verse and, and again, time loops.
I wish they would just get away from stupid time loops, um, where
they, where they kind of hinted at, like there's a multiverse that
are all on there, all timelines.
No, it's just, they got to get away from the time loops.
Um, cause they kind of hinted at that, you know, at each it's each universe has
its own time loop, uh, not a fan of that.
Um, so yeah, so those, uh, oh, I also liked how the visually the,
when it started splintering away, it kind of looked like a brain and
all those synapses and stuff firing.
Yeah.
Um, and one last thing I'm going to shout out to TJ real quick
when Kane was explaining how the multi-verse is worked, right.
Talking about the being stacked on top of each other and all of that.
The physics actually wasn't that far off as far as I understand.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Like as, as I understand, you know, again, my very, very basic
knowledge have to have TJ back, um, of how, you know, string theory
works and all and all of that stuff.
Um, you know, the quantum mechanics, um, it's clearly it's a show, but the
way he was explaining it, being stacked on top of each other and those types
of things, the, the physics in this, I don't think was actually that far off.
So TJ probably probably appreciated that more than he did the rocket in the truck.
Those are my straight thoughts.
Trey: It feels like an invitation to get TJ backlog.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, I know we've talked about it so
Trey: well for me, one, this one just got added to it.
I can't believe we almost made it this episode without talking about
that opening sequence, where we got all the lines from different
movies in the MCU and the TV shows.
So that was really good, great way to set up things are changing.
Um, the other one I had was miss Minot, scared the heck out of me whenever
they entered in the Citadel and they're walking and she's just like, Hey y'all.
And he was just like, oh my God.
Like, it scared me for real.
But, uh, and then I, I really didn't have too many straight thoughts.
The last one I have is Kangas growth.
Like he wiped his nose and then touch the apple.
He was eating and it was just like, that kind of threw me off of
Jude: it.
I notice that, um, yeah, like next time I watch, that's
probably the only thing I'll see.
Uh
Trey: huh.
I get, I get like just brushing against your nose, but he, he, I
dunno, he spent a long time and then he just immediately touched his apple.
So I could not talk about that.
Well, yeah, that, uh, that's going to do it for the stray thoughts.
You know, normally we do predictions, but given that this is the finale, there's
not really a lot for us to predict.
So I think we alluded to it too.
We're going to have a wrap-up episode next week.
Uh, so we'll have more to discuss about the future of low-key, but
I think that's going to do it.
So if you have any thoughts or opinions on this episode, Or if you'd like
to comment on anything we mentioned, you can reach us at MC you need to
know at Twitter and Instagram, or if you'd like to join our discord,
there's a link to it in the show notes.
So wonderful community of people who are just as excited about the MCU as we are.
And we'd love to
Jude: have you.
And when you get to this score and make sure you go to the role of sign,
click on the emoji, so you can have access to all the spoiler channels to
these wonderful conversations, uh, and go ahead and make sure you follow us
on whatever pod catcher you're using.
Please leave us a review and some feedback.
Uh, he knows, uh, next one, we'll get to read on line, um, live on
the pod again, just like we did here, a live recorded anyways.
And the best thing he you do for us is share with the friends.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You find more of his work in his SoundCloud, which is
linked in the show notes.
All right, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and thank you for doing this too.
Thank you.
We'll see you all next week.
You know, it's so funny to me.
I love that we're here at the sin and we can reveal now that throughout
the entirety of this episode, we had of a friend listening in on this.
Jude: Yes.
Uh, so a coworker kin, uh, You know, and he was curious about
the process and wanting to sit in.
So this episode, Ken, thank you for joining us and, and I hope you got
out of it, what you're looking for.
Well,
Trey: thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to just listen.
I'm always curious about, you know, processes behind things,
movies, um, podcasts, even, and just listening to you guys.
All I can say is while I was listening to you, there were parts where I would
get distracted and I was like, oh, I have to rewind this, but I couldn't.
Jude: But
Trey: it's just so cool.
Listening to the dynamic, the sharing.
It's amazing.
Thank you.
Thank
Jude: you so much.
Cool.
Trey: Thank you so much.
Thank you.
You know, I find it so funny because.
I think before we even decided that we were going to do this a few
weeks ago, I opened up one of the banters of the banter section of the
podcast, by saying, I wonder who the first person is that listens to it.
And now we know definitively with this episode.
It was you.
Yeah.
It's an honor to listen to the first episode, the first one to
hear the podcast, again, many, many thanks to both of you.
And again, congrats for one year and to the many more years of MCU need to know.
Thanks.
Thank you so much, Kim.
So, like we said, you're going to hear an audio cue.
And once we get on the other side of it, it's going to be fair game
for the MCU up until this finale.
So if not, let me start that over.
So on the other side of this queue, it's going to be fair game for all spoilers
in the MCU, including this finale.
So, uh, you'll hear the queue and we'll be on the other side.
So we'll see you on the other side.
That was weird.
That was awkward.
That was weird.
Why am I having a hard time with this?
I don't know.
I put too much pressure on it.
On
Jude: that beginning.
You were like, so we'll see you on the other side.
So we'll see you in,
Trey: listen.
It's all my variants coming through saying it at one moment in time.
Jude: Okay.
Let's start over.
Okay.
Trey: See, that's my character growth.
I can pretend with nothing as well.
Now he's doing stop.
Okay.
Let's start from here.