WEBVTT

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The U.S.

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government has banned all foreign-made

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consumer routers,

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SystemD's new age verification feature,

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and the Meta and Google social media

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addiction lawsuit.

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All this and more coming up on This

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Week in Privacy, number forty-six,

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so stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community,

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and this week's top stories in data

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privacy and cybersecurity.

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I'm Jonah,

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and with me this week is Nate.

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How are you doing, Nate?

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I'm doing very well.

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Busy week behind the scenes here,

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but very excited.

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Good stuff.

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How have you been?

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I'm doing fantastic.

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I'm excited to be back on the show.

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Now we'll start off with the biggest news

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that we've seen in privacy and security

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over the past week.

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Our first story today is reported by The

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Verge.

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The US government just banned consumer

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routers made outside the US.

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The US claims foreign-made routers pose

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national security risks.

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So this gives some context.

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In December,

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the Federal Communications Commission

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banned all future drones made in foreign

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countries from being imported into the

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United States unless or until their maker

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gets an exception.

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Now the FCC has done the exact same

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for consumer networking gear, citing,

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quote,

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an unacceptable risk to the national

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security of the United States and to the

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safety and security of U.S.

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persons.

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So as this article says,

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we did see this happening with DJI,

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who opted to just not sell new drones

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in the United States rather than try to

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comply with this.

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And now a similar thing is happening here.

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As The Verge points out,

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the vast majority, if not all,

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consumer routers are currently

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manufactured outside the United States,

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and the vast majority of future consumer

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routers are now banned.

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By adding all foreign made consumer

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routers to its covered list,

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the FCC is saying it will no longer

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authorize their radios,

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which de facto bans new devices from

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import into the country.

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So this is a interesting ban,

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to say the least.

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It doesn't seem to be like a lot

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of other things that are banned,

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because as this article points out,

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domestic router manufacturing is pretty

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much not a thing.

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I have a couple of questions about this

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and actually posted this on Mastodon.

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But my biggest question is kind of like

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how this relates to

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they're differentiating between consumer

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routers and other routers.

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I've seen the FCC,

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their definition of residential routers,

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which basically says that it's all routers

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that are intended to be used in a

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residential setting and can be installed

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by the end user,

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which seems to me like it would

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not affect something like the router that

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your ISP provides.

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So I think that this ban could certainly

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mean that we're all going to be stuck

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with these probably far more insecure

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trash routers that Verizon or Comcast or

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whoever provides you rather than you being

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able to replace it with your own.

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But yeah, it's crazy stuff.

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Did you see anything in this article that

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you wanted to point out, Nate?

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Oh, yes.

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A couple of things.

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Well, specifically,

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I wanted to point out that according to

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the article, well,

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according to the FCC as well,

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this is about national security, right?

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And they specifically mentioned the Volt

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Typhoon, the Salt Typhoon,

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and the Flax Typhoon,

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which that one I'm not familiar with.

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But they cited those cyber attacks,

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which targeted critical American

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communications, energy, transportation,

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and water infrastructure.

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But the thing they don't mention that I

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thought was interesting is that Salt

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Typhoon happened because of a law

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enforcement backdoor in our

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telecommunications infrastructure.

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And I think the article pointed out here

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that Volt Typhoon happened because

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American-made routers,

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they specifically – yeah,

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Cisco and Netgear mostly –

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we're just not kept up to date.

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So it's like the flimsiest, um,

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like I'm trying to think of an example.

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It's,

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I guess it's like that classic joke that,

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you know, Oh, I don't drink water.

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Do you know how many people that kills

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every single year?

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And it's like, that's not really related,

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but okay, sure.

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Go off, I guess.

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Oh,

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So one thing I thought I read here

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that maybe you know more about is,

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is this a ban on the routers or

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is this a ban?

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I think the article said something about

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it being on like the radio chips,

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which kind of makes it even worse because

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I know there are,

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there's a few in my non-expert opinion,

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there's a few decent American

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manufacturers like Netgear, for example.

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But if the chip itself is the part

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that's on the covered list,

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then how are they supposed to produce

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these?

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um without getting a chip did you read

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anything about that am i misremembering

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that so i mean typically each individual

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product is going to need to be approved

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by the fcc so they do um they

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would they would approve like the entire

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product and the only thing that i've seen

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is that they're not going to approve

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consumer residential router products.

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So this is not going to affect business

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routers.

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As far as I know,

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it wouldn't affect the chips if they're

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used in a non-consumer router.

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So like one of my questions is,

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there's certainly an interesting line in

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the router space once you get to the

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higher end between like

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residential routers from like NetGate or

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Linksys or whoever,

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and then like more prosumer routers like

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Ubiquity.

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And then you get into like enterprise

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routers, which as far as I know,

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are not affected.

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I don't know where something like in that

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prosumer middle ground is going to fall.

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But usually like even on the enterprise

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side of things,

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if you're looking at the the actual chips

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involved there,

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they're similar,

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if not the same to what's in a

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lot of routers,

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just because there aren't like a ton of

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options for chips.

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So as far as I know,

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individual components shouldn't be

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impacted,

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which makes this all the more

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interesting because I don't know what

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they're exactly trying to defend against

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here.

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I would imagine the bigger issue that they

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would say that they have is more to

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do with the router firmware and how it's

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deployed.

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But as you pointed out and as the

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article said,

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the most recent big attacks on routers

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have been against major American ones and

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enterprise ones that are typically more

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powerful, enterprise firewalls.

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So something from the likes of Cisco or

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FortiGate or whoever are the most recent

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major attacks lately.

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Whereas consumer-grade routers,

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certainly have security issues like don't

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get me wrong but i don't think they

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warrant um something a total ban like this

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kind of similar to the drone thing uh

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what their goals are aren't exactly clear

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to me but uh it seems like they

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really want

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these manufacturers to just cut some kind

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of deal to get approved rather than just

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being approved because they made a product

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that people need.

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So yeah,

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it's kind of like all of the tariff

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stuff lately and the other trade bans that

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have been going on in the US.

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I think it's going to be a big

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challenge for American consumers right

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now.

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Manufacturing capacity for these routers

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certainly cannot shift to the US at a

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moment's notice.

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I mean,

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it would take years for this to even

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be a possibility.

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So in the meantime, it seems not great.

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And I guess we'll see how these router

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companies respond.

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I haven't actually looked this week to see

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if any of them have made a statement.

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I would be interested to know how many

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are going to take DJI's approach to just

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exit the US market versus how many people

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are going to try to comply with this.

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But pretty much the entire router industry

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is going to be impacted by this.

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So it's crazy stuff.

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Yeah, nothing has come across my feed.

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I haven't specifically gone looking in

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terms of if anybody's made a statement.

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um another thought that occurs to me uh

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i'm assuming okay i i have a really

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stupid question here i mean there are

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enterprise level wi-fi routers right most

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of my work is done with like hardwire

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switch i've never i haven't done a whole

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lot of routers or like wi-fi so yeah

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definitely um i mean there's like ubiquity

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for example you see that installed in

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small and medium businesses uh

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A lot of the time,

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these enterprise things are split up into

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multiple components.

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They'll have an access point and a router,

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and those will be separate things,

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which is the case for most of Ubiquiti's

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products.

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It's also the case for something like

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Aruba or Cisco.

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They both make access points.

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There's other...

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There's other manufacturers like MicroTik.

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I can't remember other big enterprise

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ones, but there's certainly a lot of them,

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which in theory should not be impacted,

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but I guess it depends on how widely

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the FCC decides to define all of these

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products.

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And then, okay,

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so the other stupid question here is

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there's kind of a big price gap,

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isn't there,

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between a consumer-level router and an

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enterprise one?

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How big of a price gap are we

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talking?

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yeah so that's where it really depends on

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the product i think most of these um

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enterprise routers are going to be or like

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the entire system it's always going to be

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more expensive because you have to buy the

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router and the access points separately um

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so there's that whole aspect but of course

00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:43.802
on the router side of things you can

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set up like a old computer or something

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and use some open source software like

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open sensor pf sense so you have that

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option and then the access points um

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generally cheaper you probably only need

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one to cover a house realistically so it's

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possible especially with um some fraud

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some products like either from ubiquity or

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microtik i know that they make access

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points that are probably readily

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accessible um some of the more enterprise

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stuff like uh from aruba or uh maybe

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cisco or or other companies they're gonna

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require like

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a whole subscription service for

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management and all of this stuff.

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So once you get into the real enterprise

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side of things like that would be

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extremely hard to do from your house,

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but it really depends on the manufacturer.

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But there are some lower end ones where

00:11:35.868 --> 00:11:37.388
you could see that being possible.

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But I don't know if the FCC is

00:11:40.048 --> 00:11:42.809
going to extend that to pretty much

00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.570
anything that normal residential consumers

00:11:45.610 --> 00:11:47.370
will buy or whether it'll just be like

00:11:47.691 --> 00:11:49.912
things that are marketed towards

00:11:50.131 --> 00:11:50.652
consumers.

00:11:52.313 --> 00:11:55.321
One of the questions that I had on

00:11:55.380 --> 00:11:57.144
Mastodon was whether we're going to see an

00:11:57.224 --> 00:11:57.705
uptick in

00:11:58.797 --> 00:12:01.518
small business or home business routers um

00:12:01.618 --> 00:12:03.558
that say like not for residential use on

00:12:03.578 --> 00:12:06.100
them because i know we've seen um in

00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.841
other areas that the government regulates

00:12:08.921 --> 00:12:11.581
like uh all sorts of crazy drugs and

00:12:11.642 --> 00:12:13.222
peptides for example i was just thinking

00:12:13.263 --> 00:12:15.683
about research drugs that are not approved

00:12:15.703 --> 00:12:17.565
by the fda they're not for human

00:12:17.605 --> 00:12:20.485
consumption but of course they get sold um

00:12:21.977 --> 00:12:23.078
to random people anyways,

00:12:23.099 --> 00:12:25.081
and you can find plenty of threads on

00:12:25.861 --> 00:12:28.644
Reddit and other sites that indicate they

00:12:28.703 --> 00:12:30.586
might not be following all of the labels

00:12:31.025 --> 00:12:32.027
on these products.

00:12:33.368 --> 00:12:34.389
So I don't know if that would be

00:12:34.408 --> 00:12:35.149
the case here,

00:12:35.811 --> 00:12:38.072
but I would be interested to see if

00:12:38.092 --> 00:12:40.434
that's the case.

00:12:40.495 --> 00:12:44.418
Yeah, I don't want to get too political,

00:12:44.457 --> 00:12:45.938
but that is a thought with what you

00:12:45.958 --> 00:12:46.559
were saying about,

00:12:47.059 --> 00:12:48.402
I think regardless of whether you're

00:12:49.724 --> 00:12:51.384
pro the current administration or not,

00:12:51.903 --> 00:12:53.284
this whole idea of like bringing

00:12:53.544 --> 00:12:55.184
manufacturing back to the U S again,

00:12:55.205 --> 00:12:56.164
whether you think that's a good idea or

00:12:56.205 --> 00:12:58.666
not, it, it can't happen overnight.

00:12:58.785 --> 00:13:00.166
And so this like out of the blue,

00:13:00.245 --> 00:13:01.885
like, okay, all these routers are banned.

00:13:01.926 --> 00:13:03.105
It's like, dude,

00:13:03.166 --> 00:13:05.647
it's going to take us five years at

00:13:05.726 --> 00:13:06.927
best, probably even more than that.

00:13:06.947 --> 00:13:08.106
That's probably like delusionally

00:13:08.206 --> 00:13:10.488
optimistic to get the manufacturing done

00:13:10.528 --> 00:13:11.327
back over here.

00:13:11.467 --> 00:13:13.508
And then to get the supply chain instruct

00:13:13.807 --> 00:13:16.028
in place and the infrastructure,

00:13:16.109 --> 00:13:17.349
it's like, it's not, it's,

00:13:17.832 --> 00:13:19.113
Yeah, it's it's crazy.

00:13:19.293 --> 00:13:21.274
So I'm hoping and again,

00:13:21.374 --> 00:13:22.214
not to be too political,

00:13:22.254 --> 00:13:24.375
but we have seen I feel like we've

00:13:24.414 --> 00:13:26.014
seen the current administration do things

00:13:26.254 --> 00:13:27.836
like this where like they'll ban something

00:13:28.796 --> 00:13:30.515
or they'll institute tariffs and then

00:13:30.535 --> 00:13:31.476
they'll kind of start to like make

00:13:31.537 --> 00:13:32.317
exceptions.

00:13:32.336 --> 00:13:33.596
And OK, except for this guy.

00:13:33.616 --> 00:13:34.638
And but here's a workaround.

00:13:34.658 --> 00:13:36.278
And and I think it's because once they

00:13:36.298 --> 00:13:37.538
do it, they realize like, oh,

00:13:37.577 --> 00:13:38.058
wait a minute,

00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:39.438
that can't happen that fast.

00:13:39.479 --> 00:13:42.179
So I'm hoping we'll see something similar

00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:43.659
here, to be honest.

00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:44.379
Yeah,

00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:45.520
I don't see any other way around it.

00:13:45.561 --> 00:13:46.400
I think they're going to have to

00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:47.140
personally.

00:13:47.693 --> 00:13:49.155
The worst case scenario, I think,

00:13:49.176 --> 00:13:50.738
for this whole thing from a privacy

00:13:50.778 --> 00:13:53.422
perspective is that the available options

00:13:54.202 --> 00:13:55.325
that will be left on the market,

00:13:55.365 --> 00:13:56.787
I think it's going to be much easier

00:13:56.866 --> 00:13:58.408
to track because...

00:14:00.447 --> 00:14:02.548
The specific definition of residential

00:14:02.568 --> 00:14:03.989
consumer routers that they're using here

00:14:04.028 --> 00:14:07.970
do say it's routers that are intended to

00:14:07.990 --> 00:14:09.809
be installed by the end user.

00:14:09.850 --> 00:14:11.730
So presumably something that your ISP

00:14:11.770 --> 00:14:12.971
installed would not be affected.

00:14:13.010 --> 00:14:14.250
So like I said before,

00:14:14.370 --> 00:14:15.731
I think a lot of ISPs will be

00:14:15.772 --> 00:14:17.072
installing their own routers.

00:14:17.851 --> 00:14:21.133
And those are pretty well known to track

00:14:21.212 --> 00:14:22.133
a ton of information.

00:14:22.173 --> 00:14:23.413
It's one of the main reasons,

00:14:24.092 --> 00:14:26.533
aside from the poor performance and other

00:14:26.634 --> 00:14:26.813
things.

00:14:26.905 --> 00:14:28.586
There's a lot of reasons that people will

00:14:28.647 --> 00:14:31.107
replace their ISP-provided router,

00:14:31.168 --> 00:14:33.649
but tracking and privacy concerns are

00:14:33.708 --> 00:14:35.250
certainly one of them.

00:14:36.250 --> 00:14:39.071
And this could also, I think,

00:14:39.551 --> 00:14:41.991
get more people to switch to cellular

00:14:42.131 --> 00:14:43.852
connections or use their cell phones more

00:14:43.893 --> 00:14:45.254
because you don't need a router at all.

00:14:45.333 --> 00:14:45.953
But of course,

00:14:46.533 --> 00:14:49.455
the whole cell network system is more

00:14:49.495 --> 00:14:51.936
problematic for surveillance and privacy

00:14:51.956 --> 00:14:53.517
as well compared to these hardline

00:14:54.256 --> 00:14:54.998
internet connections.

00:14:57.023 --> 00:14:57.302
Yeah,

00:14:57.503 --> 00:14:59.644
I think we'll have to see how this

00:14:59.705 --> 00:15:00.164
resolves,

00:15:00.205 --> 00:15:01.765
but there's a lot of potential privacy

00:15:01.806 --> 00:15:03.326
concerns here.

00:15:04.508 --> 00:15:06.309
Jordan asked in the chat whether there's

00:15:06.350 --> 00:15:06.789
any U.S.

00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:07.791
manufactured routers.

00:15:08.890 --> 00:15:10.533
Not as far as I know is the

00:15:10.592 --> 00:15:11.133
answer to that.

00:15:11.232 --> 00:15:12.533
I think that there are

00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:15.961
There are certainly some routers.

00:15:16.162 --> 00:15:17.462
Yeah, they're like U.S.

00:15:17.524 --> 00:15:18.124
designed.

00:15:19.504 --> 00:15:21.506
So there are American companies that are

00:15:21.547 --> 00:15:22.346
making routers,

00:15:22.466 --> 00:15:25.730
but the manufacturing in the U.S.,

00:15:26.330 --> 00:15:27.551
it's non-existent.

00:15:28.272 --> 00:15:32.134
And even like companies in end products

00:15:32.174 --> 00:15:33.696
that are making wireless chips on the

00:15:33.735 --> 00:15:34.336
other side.

00:15:35.658 --> 00:15:38.058
Like we've seen Apple get into this with

00:15:38.078 --> 00:15:40.100
their latest products where they're now...

00:15:41.953 --> 00:15:43.115
creating their own modems.

00:15:43.174 --> 00:15:44.535
But all of that is obviously not

00:15:44.596 --> 00:15:45.855
manufactured in the US.

00:15:45.895 --> 00:15:47.397
It's just designed here.

00:15:47.417 --> 00:15:50.178
And I think that a part of the

00:15:50.899 --> 00:15:52.399
concern that they would have is whether

00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.601
the back doors could be inserted into

00:15:54.621 --> 00:15:55.922
these ships during the manufacturing

00:15:55.961 --> 00:15:57.462
process that the designers wouldn't know

00:15:57.503 --> 00:15:57.722
about.

00:15:57.823 --> 00:15:59.565
So I don't know how this is going

00:15:59.605 --> 00:16:01.245
to impact American companies.

00:16:02.446 --> 00:16:07.009
But yeah, it'll be interesting to see.

00:16:07.288 --> 00:16:08.490
Possibly stupid question.

00:16:09.451 --> 00:16:11.091
Are manufacturing and assembly the same

00:16:11.131 --> 00:16:11.331
thing?

00:16:12.201 --> 00:16:12.922
in this context?

00:16:14.082 --> 00:16:17.825
Um, cause my thought process is, um,

00:16:18.485 --> 00:16:19.884
in Texas, I think it's so funny.

00:16:20.046 --> 00:16:21.505
I see a lot of Toyota trucks driving

00:16:21.525 --> 00:16:22.346
around with a sticker.

00:16:22.866 --> 00:16:24.126
It has like the Texas flag on it.

00:16:24.167 --> 00:16:24.727
And it says, uh,

00:16:24.807 --> 00:16:27.048
built here lives here because Toyota has

00:16:27.068 --> 00:16:28.249
an assembly plant in Houston.

00:16:28.668 --> 00:16:29.730
And every time I see that, I'm like,

00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:31.110
yeah, but Toyota,

00:16:31.451 --> 00:16:32.850
like this is not an American company,

00:16:33.230 --> 00:16:35.251
but they assemble the trucks here in,

00:16:35.392 --> 00:16:35.972
in Texas.

00:16:36.033 --> 00:16:36.732
So good enough.

00:16:36.793 --> 00:16:37.033
Right.

00:16:37.432 --> 00:16:38.494
And that's kind of my thought is like,

00:16:38.894 --> 00:16:40.014
Would that be a loophole maybe?

00:16:40.054 --> 00:16:42.076
Like, OK, just take all the components,

00:16:42.397 --> 00:16:43.397
ship them over here,

00:16:43.496 --> 00:16:45.479
and we'll spin up a factory in Houston

00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:46.679
or wherever, Indiana,

00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:48.201
and just assemble them here.

00:16:48.280 --> 00:16:49.682
And now it's not manufactured.

00:16:50.162 --> 00:16:51.102
I wonder, I don't know,

00:16:51.123 --> 00:16:52.384
that just kind of popped into my head

00:16:52.443 --> 00:16:53.345
while you were answering Jordan's

00:16:53.384 --> 00:16:53.784
question.

00:16:55.485 --> 00:16:57.648
Yeah, that is a great question.

00:16:57.768 --> 00:16:59.589
I don't know how they would apply this

00:16:59.688 --> 00:17:03.631
to individual router components.

00:17:07.771 --> 00:17:08.993
That's a great question.

00:17:09.074 --> 00:17:11.577
It's hard to say what loopholes will be

00:17:11.617 --> 00:17:13.140
available.

00:17:13.220 --> 00:17:14.361
I was just curious if you knew anything

00:17:14.381 --> 00:17:14.761
about that.

00:17:14.801 --> 00:17:15.462
Like, no, those are...

00:17:16.624 --> 00:17:17.484
Okay.

00:17:17.785 --> 00:17:17.964
Yeah.

00:17:17.984 --> 00:17:19.445
I know, like, for example,

00:17:19.465 --> 00:17:22.107
I know this ban does extend to routers

00:17:22.127 --> 00:17:23.167
that are designed in the US.

00:17:23.208 --> 00:17:23.949
So like right now,

00:17:24.009 --> 00:17:26.590
those American companies are impacted.

00:17:27.191 --> 00:17:28.491
But whether they can do like this,

00:17:28.892 --> 00:17:30.212
I've definitely seen that before to like

00:17:30.232 --> 00:17:32.473
get the made in the USA stickers on

00:17:32.534 --> 00:17:33.174
different products.

00:17:33.434 --> 00:17:34.715
It's definitely a thing that happens.

00:17:35.696 --> 00:17:37.198
And I don't know if that'll be enough

00:17:37.238 --> 00:17:39.019
of a loophole to get these routers in

00:17:39.038 --> 00:17:39.318
or not.

00:17:39.659 --> 00:17:41.440
But I guess we'll see what companies come

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:41.881
up with.

00:17:42.020 --> 00:17:44.162
Yeah, that's what I was about to say.

00:17:44.221 --> 00:17:45.462
I guess we'll find out.

00:17:45.944 --> 00:17:46.404
Yeah,

00:17:46.704 --> 00:17:49.046
I think the biggest thing with this story

00:17:49.066 --> 00:17:51.826
is just if there are security concerns,

00:17:52.145 --> 00:17:53.645
we could certainly look at all of the

00:17:53.685 --> 00:17:55.247
security concerns and issues that we've

00:17:55.307 --> 00:17:56.426
seen with routers.

00:17:57.067 --> 00:17:59.907
We've definitely reported on some or

00:17:59.948 --> 00:18:01.607
talked about them on this show before

00:18:01.667 --> 00:18:03.468
various routers being attacked with

00:18:03.508 --> 00:18:05.348
malware or updates that you should

00:18:05.368 --> 00:18:05.828
install.

00:18:06.548 --> 00:18:10.190
But this kind of blaming that on it

00:18:10.250 --> 00:18:12.410
being because they're foreign routers

00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:14.711
routers doesn't make a lot of sense to

00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:16.393
me this is definitely a case of like

00:18:16.613 --> 00:18:20.394
because all routers are foreign um it's

00:18:20.474 --> 00:18:24.837
it's sort of a correlation situation not a

00:18:24.897 --> 00:18:27.259
causation right like that's not the reason

00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:28.121
it just happens to be

00:18:29.308 --> 00:18:31.330
all routers that have security issues are

00:18:31.371 --> 00:18:35.355
foreign because all routers are foreign,

00:18:35.415 --> 00:18:36.717
right?

00:18:36.957 --> 00:18:37.238
Yeah,

00:18:37.678 --> 00:18:39.299
and something else that popped into my

00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:40.641
head that I forgot until just now,

00:18:41.261 --> 00:18:42.262
not to put on too much of a

00:18:42.303 --> 00:18:43.064
tinfoil hat,

00:18:43.403 --> 00:18:44.545
but it's weird to me that they're like,

00:18:44.605 --> 00:18:45.987
oh, this is a national security risk,

00:18:46.307 --> 00:18:48.148
so we have to ban consumer routers.

00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:49.309
But...

00:18:50.244 --> 00:18:51.184
Wouldn't we want to keep...

00:18:51.986 --> 00:18:54.046
And China has a proven history of stealing

00:18:54.165 --> 00:18:54.405
U.S.

00:18:54.425 --> 00:18:55.307
intellectual property.

00:18:56.606 --> 00:18:57.146
That's known.

00:18:57.166 --> 00:18:58.126
That's a proven thing.

00:18:58.488 --> 00:19:00.428
So why wouldn't we ban the business

00:19:00.488 --> 00:19:01.387
routers instead?

00:19:02.469 --> 00:19:03.269
It's very confusing.

00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:06.509
It's not lining up with... Absolutely.

00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:06.849
I mean,

00:19:07.410 --> 00:19:09.230
the business routers definitely have a

00:19:09.330 --> 00:19:12.491
more sensitive position in the networks.

00:19:13.231 --> 00:19:15.512
So there should be more concern there.

00:19:16.113 --> 00:19:16.893
I do think...

00:19:17.853 --> 00:19:19.173
I'll play devil's advocate and...

00:19:21.053 --> 00:19:23.496
share why I think banning like consumer

00:19:23.516 --> 00:19:25.077
routers or taking them more seriously

00:19:25.117 --> 00:19:26.199
makes sense because I have

00:19:28.358 --> 00:19:32.000
Ben Tu talks and other things where people

00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:33.721
talk about not routers,

00:19:33.761 --> 00:19:36.482
but like those fake Android TV boxes that

00:19:36.502 --> 00:19:37.903
have a bunch of pirated content that you

00:19:37.923 --> 00:19:39.224
can get on Amazon or whatever,

00:19:39.625 --> 00:19:41.145
and sort of products like that,

00:19:41.385 --> 00:19:43.267
or browser extensions that you can install

00:19:43.287 --> 00:19:45.067
that give you a free VPN or something.

00:19:45.448 --> 00:19:47.388
And all of these things are typically used

00:19:47.509 --> 00:19:51.010
to create basically a botnet of all of

00:19:51.050 --> 00:19:52.612
these residential routers or

00:19:53.746 --> 00:19:55.368
like proxy services where you can get a

00:19:55.429 --> 00:19:56.431
residential IP.

00:19:56.730 --> 00:19:58.494
And I think just the sheer scale of

00:19:58.515 --> 00:19:59.978
like how many internet connections are

00:20:00.038 --> 00:20:02.382
residential ones versus like a business

00:20:02.442 --> 00:20:03.663
one is typically going to have one

00:20:04.894 --> 00:20:06.576
fairly large business connection,

00:20:06.596 --> 00:20:07.876
but there are less of those.

00:20:07.916 --> 00:20:11.299
I think that from a botnet perspective,

00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:13.701
you could be concerned about consumer

00:20:13.741 --> 00:20:18.664
routers being used to attack like just in

00:20:18.684 --> 00:20:21.768
a DDoS scenario more than like a data

00:20:21.847 --> 00:20:23.848
exfiltration scenario that you might want

00:20:23.868 --> 00:20:25.269
to protect against on the business side of

00:20:25.309 --> 00:20:25.569
things.

00:20:26.510 --> 00:20:29.113
But again, like I said,

00:20:29.153 --> 00:20:31.174
I don't think that just because they're

00:20:31.214 --> 00:20:34.077
foreign means that that is going to

00:20:34.298 --> 00:20:34.678
happen.

00:20:34.738 --> 00:20:36.299
So the ban doesn't make a lot of

00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:37.760
sense to me from that perspective.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.605
But it is certainly a concern that you

00:20:42.645 --> 00:20:43.046
could have.

00:20:45.026 --> 00:20:47.106
That makes sense.

00:20:47.186 --> 00:20:48.426
I think last note on this story,

00:20:48.467 --> 00:20:50.087
Jordan said the US doesn't really have

00:20:50.248 --> 00:20:51.989
semiconductor fabrication capabilities.

00:20:52.068 --> 00:20:52.189
Well,

00:20:52.209 --> 00:20:54.009
we have a Samsung factory that last time

00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:55.390
I checked was supposed to start pumping

00:20:55.430 --> 00:20:56.691
out chips in twenty twenty three.

00:20:59.071 --> 00:21:00.192
I haven't checked recently,

00:21:00.271 --> 00:21:02.192
but as of late last year,

00:21:02.772 --> 00:21:04.834
they still are not making chips.

00:21:06.314 --> 00:21:08.174
I know Tesla just announced their factory,

00:21:08.275 --> 00:21:09.756
and I think there's another one that.

00:21:10.773 --> 00:21:12.234
I heard about this supposed to be built

00:21:12.275 --> 00:21:13.876
in New York, I think, but I like,

00:21:13.977 --> 00:21:15.597
I heard about the initial funding a few

00:21:15.637 --> 00:21:16.798
years ago and that's all I've heard.

00:21:16.858 --> 00:21:20.962
So yeah, we definitely don't have.

00:21:20.982 --> 00:21:22.924
TSMC has been building one in Arizona for

00:21:22.944 --> 00:21:24.125
a while as well,

00:21:24.465 --> 00:21:25.906
but none of these have launched as far

00:21:25.946 --> 00:21:26.428
as I know.

00:21:27.147 --> 00:21:28.148
It's not super easy to do.

00:21:28.249 --> 00:21:34.795
Nate, I think you're muted or you're.

00:21:35.992 --> 00:21:36.413
Sorry about that.

00:21:37.374 --> 00:21:38.714
Ah, okay.

00:21:38.755 --> 00:21:39.855
Yeah, just to drive home the point,

00:21:40.134 --> 00:21:42.696
the one in Texas is supposed to take

00:21:42.757 --> 00:21:44.157
twenty years to build,

00:21:44.238 --> 00:21:45.357
and that's if it's on schedule.

00:21:45.377 --> 00:21:47.318
That's not including that it is now

00:21:47.378 --> 00:21:48.039
running behind,

00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:49.319
and it will probably just compound,

00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:53.363
and we'll fully habitate Mars by the time

00:21:53.403 --> 00:21:54.022
that thing's done.

00:21:54.143 --> 00:21:55.523
But you know what I mean?

00:21:55.544 --> 00:21:57.684
It's like, yeah, they –

00:21:57.805 --> 00:21:58.625
What we were saying earlier,

00:21:58.685 --> 00:21:59.726
you can't just spin this stuff up

00:21:59.766 --> 00:22:00.105
overnight.

00:22:00.165 --> 00:22:01.467
It doesn't matter your political leanings

00:22:01.487 --> 00:22:03.167
and whether you think manufacturing should

00:22:03.188 --> 00:22:03.749
be here or not.

00:22:03.929 --> 00:22:05.128
We can't do this overnight.

00:22:05.169 --> 00:22:06.410
It's just not possible.

00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:08.230
And it's not even a matter of getting

00:22:08.510 --> 00:22:09.592
the equipment to do it.

00:22:09.632 --> 00:22:11.153
You can't just build a building and fill

00:22:11.173 --> 00:22:14.494
this up with semiconductor equipment to

00:22:14.535 --> 00:22:16.536
start making these chips.

00:22:17.135 --> 00:22:18.116
In Taiwan right now,

00:22:18.136 --> 00:22:20.498
there's just such a massive centralization

00:22:20.538 --> 00:22:22.199
of knowledge of how to make these chips

00:22:22.219 --> 00:22:23.640
and how to use all of these machines

00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:25.901
and how to design this stuff that you

00:22:25.921 --> 00:22:26.221
can't

00:22:27.142 --> 00:22:29.483
you can't just replicate this.

00:22:29.943 --> 00:22:32.625
Like we see Intel, for example,

00:22:32.684 --> 00:22:35.926
has some of the most advanced

00:22:36.667 --> 00:22:38.788
manufacturing equipment in the world as

00:22:38.848 --> 00:22:40.049
well, just like TSMC,

00:22:40.069 --> 00:22:41.490
but they've had a lot of struggles.

00:22:43.291 --> 00:22:44.913
I don't know what Intel is up to

00:22:45.093 --> 00:22:45.593
these days,

00:22:45.653 --> 00:22:47.134
but I know for a while they had

00:22:47.153 --> 00:22:50.355
a lot of struggles with improving their

00:22:50.395 --> 00:22:51.596
processes even more,

00:22:52.317 --> 00:22:53.878
just because it's extremely challenging to

00:22:53.919 --> 00:22:53.999
do.

00:22:56.703 --> 00:22:57.986
I was going to say something about AI,

00:22:58.006 --> 00:22:59.126
but then I realized I was thinking of

00:22:59.188 --> 00:22:59.567
Nvidia.

00:22:59.647 --> 00:22:59.807
Yeah,

00:22:59.888 --> 00:23:01.270
I have no idea what Intel's up to

00:23:01.290 --> 00:23:01.651
these days.

00:23:03.604 --> 00:23:03.824
Okay.

00:23:04.463 --> 00:23:05.884
Before we jump into the next story,

00:23:06.045 --> 00:23:08.545
I do want to highlight earlier today,

00:23:08.585 --> 00:23:10.046
we had a new member join.

00:23:10.685 --> 00:23:12.185
And if you're watching, I apologize.

00:23:12.205 --> 00:23:13.185
I'm not even going to try to pronounce

00:23:13.226 --> 00:23:14.326
that name because it's in a foreign

00:23:14.346 --> 00:23:14.727
language.

00:23:14.767 --> 00:23:17.287
It looks maybe, I want to guess Korean,

00:23:18.948 --> 00:23:20.188
but I'm not super familiar.

00:23:20.288 --> 00:23:21.347
It's something from that part of the

00:23:21.367 --> 00:23:21.568
world,

00:23:21.608 --> 00:23:23.028
but thank you so much for becoming a

00:23:23.048 --> 00:23:23.308
member.

00:23:24.388 --> 00:23:25.108
So now on YouTube,

00:23:25.128 --> 00:23:27.109
you will have early access to videos and

00:23:27.549 --> 00:23:29.451
we will talk about membership a little bit

00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:30.570
more later in the show.

00:23:31.471 --> 00:23:31.971
But first,

00:23:32.211 --> 00:23:33.571
we're going to talk about everyone's

00:23:33.592 --> 00:23:36.933
favorite topic, age verification.

00:23:37.173 --> 00:23:40.234
SystemD is not controversial enough,

00:23:40.315 --> 00:23:42.676
so they decided to go all in and

00:23:42.717 --> 00:23:45.157
build in an age verification feature.

00:23:45.597 --> 00:23:46.578
So for those who don't know,

00:23:46.659 --> 00:23:48.859
SystemD is a Linux...

00:23:50.333 --> 00:23:51.374
I'm going to let Joan explain what it

00:23:51.413 --> 00:23:52.654
is better a little bit later,

00:23:52.734 --> 00:23:55.237
because I truly don't know how to explain

00:23:55.298 --> 00:23:55.377
it.

00:23:55.438 --> 00:23:57.519
I know it's deep, deep in the system.

00:23:58.259 --> 00:23:58.941
I'll put it that way.

00:23:59.121 --> 00:24:01.682
And it's used by a lot of major

00:24:01.722 --> 00:24:02.503
Linux distros.

00:24:02.624 --> 00:24:04.025
I know Ubuntu uses it.

00:24:04.145 --> 00:24:04.746
And therefore,

00:24:04.865 --> 00:24:08.189
all the Ubuntu derivatives like min, pop,

00:24:10.217 --> 00:24:10.436
Oh, man,

00:24:10.457 --> 00:24:11.438
there's another one I'm forgetting off the

00:24:11.458 --> 00:24:11.817
top of my head.

00:24:11.837 --> 00:24:13.077
But another really, really popular,

00:24:13.758 --> 00:24:14.778
Debian, I think, uses it.

00:24:14.878 --> 00:24:15.499
I think that was the one I was

00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:15.759
thinking of.

00:24:15.838 --> 00:24:17.119
Technically, Ubuntu is based on Debian,

00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:17.640
but either way.

00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.800
So systemd is this really high privilege,

00:24:20.901 --> 00:24:22.141
low in the system kind of thing.

00:24:22.761 --> 00:24:26.103
And they have added a field to the

00:24:26.143 --> 00:24:27.963
JSON user records that is simply

00:24:28.064 --> 00:24:28.523
birthdate.

00:24:29.223 --> 00:24:30.565
And it is what it says on the

00:24:30.585 --> 00:24:30.785
tin.

00:24:30.825 --> 00:24:31.925
Now, when you make a new user,

00:24:32.006 --> 00:24:33.665
you can choose to enter their birthday.

00:24:34.346 --> 00:24:36.748
So the good news is this is totally

00:24:36.827 --> 00:24:37.228
optional.

00:24:37.949 --> 00:24:39.348
This is not a mandatory field.

00:24:39.849 --> 00:24:42.651
If you've ever made a user in Linux,

00:24:42.730 --> 00:24:43.771
in most Linux distros,

00:24:44.132 --> 00:24:45.792
you'll get all kinds of options like real

00:24:45.833 --> 00:24:48.394
name, email address, location, and,

00:24:48.894 --> 00:24:49.154
you know...

00:24:50.035 --> 00:24:50.634
if you're like me,

00:24:50.694 --> 00:24:51.915
you don't really need that kind of stuff.

00:24:52.036 --> 00:24:53.136
So you can kind of skip through it

00:24:53.176 --> 00:24:53.336
all.

00:24:53.957 --> 00:24:55.538
But, uh, so this is the same thing.

00:24:55.557 --> 00:24:57.078
This is just an extra field that is

00:24:57.538 --> 00:24:58.858
four digit year, two digit month,

00:24:58.880 --> 00:24:59.619
two digit day,

00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:01.540
and you can skip it or,

00:25:02.401 --> 00:25:03.501
or enter it in if you want to.

00:25:04.142 --> 00:25:06.282
And they've specifically said,

00:25:06.303 --> 00:25:07.384
this is not a policy engine.

00:25:07.403 --> 00:25:08.584
This is not an API.

00:25:08.903 --> 00:25:10.224
We just define the field so that it's

00:25:10.244 --> 00:25:11.806
standardized if people want to store the

00:25:11.846 --> 00:25:13.287
date, but it's entirely optional.

00:25:13.747 --> 00:25:13.787
Um,

00:25:15.378 --> 00:25:16.099
Yeah, I mean,

00:25:16.339 --> 00:25:17.540
I feel like those are kind of all

00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:19.502
the facts of the case.

00:25:20.523 --> 00:25:22.204
Jonah, what do you think about this?

00:25:23.246 --> 00:25:24.646
I think it's cool that it's optional,

00:25:24.686 --> 00:25:25.907
but I also kind of see the argument

00:25:25.928 --> 00:25:27.028
that they shouldn't have added it in the

00:25:27.088 --> 00:25:27.670
first place.

00:25:27.730 --> 00:25:28.711
What are your thoughts on that?

00:25:29.269 --> 00:25:33.371
Systemd is a very interesting project.

00:25:33.810 --> 00:25:36.311
So I'll go back to your original question

00:25:36.352 --> 00:25:37.573
first before I get into that.

00:25:38.292 --> 00:25:40.374
Systemd, at its core,

00:25:40.394 --> 00:25:42.535
is an init system in Linux,

00:25:43.155 --> 00:25:47.438
which is basically the process that starts

00:25:47.518 --> 00:25:48.657
all of the other software on your

00:25:48.678 --> 00:25:49.058
computer.

00:25:49.098 --> 00:25:51.759
So if you think about booting up your

00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:52.140
computer,

00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.221
it gets ever more complex as you go.

00:25:55.481 --> 00:25:57.242
So typically on Linux, you would have

00:25:58.182 --> 00:25:59.845
like grub the bootloader which is

00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:02.067
extremely lightweight and all that does is

00:26:02.087 --> 00:26:03.489
you boot up it goes into that and

00:26:03.509 --> 00:26:06.613
then it starts the linux kernel which is

00:26:06.692 --> 00:26:08.454
much more complex than grub but you need

00:26:08.494 --> 00:26:10.896
something to start it and then the kernel

00:26:10.936 --> 00:26:14.280
starts your init system which in this case

00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:15.863
would be systemd but it could be any

00:26:16.063 --> 00:26:16.963
process and then

00:26:17.785 --> 00:26:19.405
the init system starts everything else and

00:26:19.425 --> 00:26:22.348
it's responsible for knowing what software

00:26:22.368 --> 00:26:23.650
you want to start and doing it all

00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:26.873
in order so that something doesn't get

00:26:26.893 --> 00:26:28.413
started first that depends on something

00:26:28.473 --> 00:26:30.655
else and then fails because it was started

00:26:30.695 --> 00:26:32.037
too early and all of that stuff.

00:26:32.076 --> 00:26:34.298
So the init system has to always be

00:26:34.338 --> 00:26:35.779
running and it's just kind of the parent

00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.501
of all of the other software that you

00:26:37.521 --> 00:26:39.683
run on your computer, if that makes sense.

00:26:40.263 --> 00:26:42.665
But system D is also

00:26:44.067 --> 00:26:48.689
a whole project with a lot more ambitions

00:26:48.729 --> 00:26:50.769
than just being an init system.

00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:53.250
And they make a lot of different software

00:26:53.290 --> 00:26:57.153
that basically tries to replace a lot of

00:26:57.532 --> 00:26:59.673
basic operating system components with

00:26:59.993 --> 00:27:01.114
systemd-developed ones.

00:27:01.134 --> 00:27:03.654
So beyond the init system,

00:27:03.875 --> 00:27:07.596
we see software like systemd-resolvd,

00:27:07.656 --> 00:27:11.699
which replaces the DNS resolver on your

00:27:11.739 --> 00:27:12.118
system.

00:27:14.199 --> 00:27:15.660
And other and other stuff like that that

00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.019
isn't necessarily related to just service

00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:20.881
management and starting processes.

00:27:21.701 --> 00:27:23.780
So they really want to be like the

00:27:23.840 --> 00:27:28.422
core software for all of your system,

00:27:28.442 --> 00:27:31.363
which is why I think they are pretty

00:27:31.462 --> 00:27:34.343
divisive project in the Linux space.

00:27:37.183 --> 00:27:37.503
But

00:27:40.131 --> 00:27:40.751
Yeah,

00:27:40.771 --> 00:27:42.452
I don't know what component this age

00:27:42.512 --> 00:27:43.973
verification is actually being installed

00:27:43.993 --> 00:27:44.054
in.

00:27:44.074 --> 00:27:45.535
I didn't see this, but maybe I should.

00:27:46.395 --> 00:27:49.298
It probably says in this article.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.201
I don't know if it's specified.

00:27:52.300 --> 00:27:55.042
It just said the JSON user records when

00:27:55.083 --> 00:27:56.884
you make a new user.

00:27:59.266 --> 00:28:02.048
XDG desktop project portal is adding age

00:28:02.068 --> 00:28:04.371
verification portal that needs a date

00:28:04.411 --> 00:28:07.032
source for the user's age in the user

00:28:07.093 --> 00:28:07.573
DB.

00:28:08.933 --> 00:28:09.515
Does that help any?

00:28:10.883 --> 00:28:14.284
It's an interesting change to make.

00:28:14.625 --> 00:28:17.125
You can definitely see their reasoning

00:28:17.164 --> 00:28:17.685
behind it,

00:28:17.726 --> 00:28:19.605
because I think if age verification is

00:28:19.645 --> 00:28:22.346
going to come to Linux, for example,

00:28:22.906 --> 00:28:25.167
it would be quite annoying if there were

00:28:25.448 --> 00:28:27.528
one million different implementations of

00:28:27.568 --> 00:28:28.970
it that the rest of the system has

00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:29.990
to integrate with.

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:31.851
But I'm not sure if this makes a

00:28:31.871 --> 00:28:34.752
ton of sense for it to be here

00:28:34.772 --> 00:28:36.354
instead of in your desktop environment.

00:28:37.115 --> 00:28:38.516
And also,

00:28:38.715 --> 00:28:41.538
I don't necessarily think that age

00:28:41.557 --> 00:28:43.339
verification is kind of a lost cause.

00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:46.301
And I think it's unfortunate to see it

00:28:46.321 --> 00:28:48.462
being adopted so readily in Linux

00:28:48.522 --> 00:28:49.064
because...

00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:54.894
I think in certain projects,

00:28:55.193 --> 00:28:57.174
I wish that the open source community

00:28:57.194 --> 00:28:58.796
would take a bit more of a stand.

00:29:00.676 --> 00:29:02.778
But everything has just become very

00:29:02.837 --> 00:29:04.919
corporate, especially in the Linux space,

00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.300
and there's a lot of compliance in

00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:07.921
advance.

00:29:08.761 --> 00:29:11.002
So it's very tricky to kind of

00:29:12.454 --> 00:29:15.759
keep with solid ethics and this has been

00:29:15.999 --> 00:29:17.299
an issue for a very long time i

00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:20.683
could go back to um one of i

00:29:21.025 --> 00:29:23.067
personally the most annoying things that i

00:29:23.547 --> 00:29:24.989
can think of in this space which is

00:29:25.068 --> 00:29:28.532
um back in i want to say firefox

00:29:28.593 --> 00:29:31.516
adding drm as like a first party thing

00:29:31.556 --> 00:29:32.938
in their browser rather than like

00:29:33.278 --> 00:29:34.979
relegating that to a third party

00:29:35.019 --> 00:29:35.539
extension,

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:38.340
because that was kind of the end of

00:29:38.721 --> 00:29:43.765
Firefox having any sort of say in the

00:29:43.805 --> 00:29:45.826
web browser space and how all of these

00:29:45.846 --> 00:29:46.686
web standards were made.

00:29:46.727 --> 00:29:47.987
I think once they gave into that,

00:29:48.027 --> 00:29:48.288
that was

00:29:48.990 --> 00:29:50.932
the slippery slope that made them lose a

00:29:50.972 --> 00:29:53.575
lot of ground in the standards committee

00:29:53.615 --> 00:29:55.336
to Chromium because they basically showed,

00:29:55.375 --> 00:29:55.516
hey,

00:29:55.615 --> 00:29:57.837
we will implement anything that Google

00:29:57.917 --> 00:29:58.298
asked for.

00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:00.881
And I think that this is a case

00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:05.344
certainly of the main developers behind

00:30:05.384 --> 00:30:06.085
Linux saying, hey,

00:30:06.164 --> 00:30:09.067
we are going to implement whatever the

00:30:09.146 --> 00:30:11.429
corporate side of Linux asks for,

00:30:11.509 --> 00:30:12.750
regardless of what the rest of the

00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:16.613
community wants, which is unfortunate.

00:30:18.903 --> 00:30:21.423
so yeah i'm not a fan of this

00:30:21.443 --> 00:30:23.824
change there's a lot of arguments for and

00:30:23.864 --> 00:30:29.806
against this i it i don't know like

00:30:30.185 --> 00:30:32.666
what the point of this is really because

00:30:32.826 --> 00:30:34.267
if you can just set your age to

00:30:34.326 --> 00:30:35.488
whatever you want yourself i don't know

00:30:35.528 --> 00:30:38.249
why this would be trusted by other

00:30:38.308 --> 00:30:39.709
software um

00:30:41.499 --> 00:30:42.700
But I guess we'll see how this is

00:30:42.940 --> 00:30:43.259
used,

00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:45.901
which is the main thing it'll come down

00:30:45.961 --> 00:30:46.240
to.

00:30:46.642 --> 00:30:47.701
I think it is like,

00:30:48.903 --> 00:30:51.463
even if there isn't a huge issue with

00:30:51.523 --> 00:30:53.545
how this specific thing is implemented

00:30:53.605 --> 00:30:54.025
right now,

00:30:54.125 --> 00:30:55.925
we are just kind of laying the foundation

00:30:55.945 --> 00:30:59.228
for more anti-user systems and more

00:31:00.048 --> 00:31:01.888
problematic systems to be implemented on

00:31:01.950 --> 00:31:02.930
Linux in the future,

00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:04.951
which is not a path that I think

00:31:04.971 --> 00:31:05.770
we should be going down.

00:31:05.932 --> 00:31:08.853
So that's my main concern with this whole

00:31:09.633 --> 00:31:10.394
story pretty much.

00:31:12.796 --> 00:31:14.215
Yeah, I agree with you.

00:31:14.236 --> 00:31:17.196
I think, you know, I mean,

00:31:17.537 --> 00:31:19.258
we always talk about how like companies

00:31:19.278 --> 00:31:21.179
and services have to follow laws, right?

00:31:21.358 --> 00:31:24.440
And somebody I spoke to recently in an

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.859
interview you guys will be seeing pretty

00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:27.339
soon mentioned that.

00:31:27.401 --> 00:31:29.161
It's like this whole idea of like

00:31:29.221 --> 00:31:31.981
cyberspace as this nebulous,

00:31:32.021 --> 00:31:33.382
like doesn't matter.

00:31:33.461 --> 00:31:33.982
It's like, no,

00:31:34.303 --> 00:31:35.883
the person writing the code,

00:31:35.903 --> 00:31:37.683
your feet are touching the ground

00:31:37.723 --> 00:31:38.963
somewhere and therefore there's

00:31:39.023 --> 00:31:41.704
jurisdiction or your server is located

00:31:41.724 --> 00:31:41.944
somewhere

00:31:42.105 --> 00:31:43.685
in a physical space somewhere.

00:31:43.865 --> 00:31:47.086
And so I understand they have to follow

00:31:47.106 --> 00:31:47.547
the law,

00:31:48.086 --> 00:31:49.567
but I do agree that it was really

00:31:49.627 --> 00:31:51.388
disappointing to see them just roll over

00:31:51.429 --> 00:31:54.190
with no fight, no nothing.

00:31:55.589 --> 00:31:57.750
And I think to kind of go back

00:31:57.790 --> 00:31:59.271
to, you answered it a little bit here,

00:31:59.291 --> 00:32:03.113
but this person asked us, Leonard asked,

00:32:03.133 --> 00:32:04.493
or Leonardo asked,

00:32:04.513 --> 00:32:05.913
do you think air verification is a lost

00:32:05.933 --> 00:32:06.213
battle?

00:32:06.654 --> 00:32:07.615
I wouldn't say lost.

00:32:08.375 --> 00:32:08.535
I mean,

00:32:08.555 --> 00:32:09.655
there's definitely that part of me that's

00:32:09.675 --> 00:32:09.895
like,

00:32:11.178 --> 00:32:12.122
If I thought it was a lost cause,

00:32:12.142 --> 00:32:12.903
I wouldn't be here, right?

00:32:12.944 --> 00:32:14.148
Like I would just go get another job

00:32:14.189 --> 00:32:15.815
and give up privacy.

00:32:16.416 --> 00:32:17.361
But I do think...

00:32:19.045 --> 00:32:20.885
I think it's partially lost in the sense

00:32:20.905 --> 00:32:22.326
that I think this is coming,

00:32:22.425 --> 00:32:23.425
whether we like it or not.

00:32:23.967 --> 00:32:25.047
This is just my personal opinion.

00:32:25.386 --> 00:32:25.926
I think it's coming,

00:32:25.946 --> 00:32:26.728
whether we like it or not,

00:32:26.768 --> 00:32:27.867
because I think there's just too many

00:32:27.887 --> 00:32:30.409
people that don't understand the downsides

00:32:30.469 --> 00:32:30.669
of it.

00:32:31.449 --> 00:32:34.329
And I think it's really important in light

00:32:34.369 --> 00:32:36.151
of that for us to have a seat

00:32:36.191 --> 00:32:38.050
at the table and have this conversation,

00:32:38.090 --> 00:32:40.451
which system deed clearly did not where we

00:32:40.491 --> 00:32:40.912
say,

00:32:41.853 --> 00:32:43.192
let's at least try to control it in

00:32:43.232 --> 00:32:45.094
a way where it's less damaging.

00:32:45.574 --> 00:32:45.874
So I think,

00:32:47.065 --> 00:32:47.585
In that sense,

00:32:47.644 --> 00:32:49.486
I almost like this because you can put

00:32:49.526 --> 00:32:50.326
any age in there, right?

00:32:50.346 --> 00:32:51.266
They're not going to verify it.

00:32:51.286 --> 00:32:52.386
They're not going to ask you to upload

00:32:52.406 --> 00:32:52.886
an ID.

00:32:53.307 --> 00:32:54.887
And, you know, then there's the question.

00:32:55.607 --> 00:32:57.188
I almost worry if like if everybody starts

00:32:57.228 --> 00:32:58.348
doing that, like, OK, fine,

00:32:58.368 --> 00:32:59.108
here's an age field.

00:32:59.148 --> 00:32:59.769
Go ahead and lie.

00:32:59.788 --> 00:33:00.329
We don't care.

00:33:00.390 --> 00:33:01.349
Then the government's just going to be

00:33:01.369 --> 00:33:03.111
like, fine, now you have to verify IDs.

00:33:03.131 --> 00:33:04.371
And it's like, crap, now it's worse.

00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:04.971
Yeah,

00:33:05.010 --> 00:33:07.732
that's exactly my point about it being a

00:33:07.772 --> 00:33:08.492
slippery slope.

00:33:08.512 --> 00:33:11.414
Because if it can always be set

00:33:11.515 --> 00:33:12.674
arbitrarily forever,

00:33:12.755 --> 00:33:14.355
I don't understand what the point of this

00:33:14.375 --> 00:33:15.876
would be in the first place, right?

00:33:15.916 --> 00:33:16.257
To me,

00:33:16.297 --> 00:33:19.598
the intent of this feature is clearly to

00:33:19.739 --> 00:33:21.940
eventually have some sort of much more

00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.241
verifiable way to set this field that

00:33:24.301 --> 00:33:26.742
won't be as user-controlled.

00:33:26.803 --> 00:33:27.604
And I think that that is...

00:33:28.503 --> 00:33:31.224
dangerous to have because if they weren't

00:33:31.244 --> 00:33:32.184
planning on doing that,

00:33:32.684 --> 00:33:35.685
then they could just do what sites always

00:33:35.746 --> 00:33:35.986
do,

00:33:36.506 --> 00:33:37.846
which is like ask people to enter their

00:33:37.886 --> 00:33:39.946
birth date or like confirm that they're

00:33:40.027 --> 00:33:42.528
over a certain age or whatever without

00:33:42.548 --> 00:33:44.068
this being built into the system.

00:33:44.128 --> 00:33:47.369
I think that that works fine until you

00:33:47.410 --> 00:33:51.631
want a much more verified way to confirm

00:33:51.651 --> 00:33:53.431
people's ages, which,

00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:54.932
as we talked about on the show a

00:33:54.971 --> 00:33:55.172
lot,

00:33:55.451 --> 00:33:58.032
is is very problematic from a privacy and

00:33:58.073 --> 00:34:00.013
censorship standpoint and that's really

00:34:00.034 --> 00:34:02.095
the only reason to build this feature

00:34:02.134 --> 00:34:03.894
that's and that's my main concern here

00:34:04.134 --> 00:34:06.476
i've seen a lot of um a lot

00:34:06.516 --> 00:34:08.217
of mixed reactions to this like in our

00:34:08.257 --> 00:34:09.538
community and elsewhere on the internet

00:34:09.557 --> 00:34:11.197
where people were kind of saying like what

00:34:11.217 --> 00:34:13.798
you were um saying at the beginning of

00:34:13.838 --> 00:34:15.340
your thought which is like hey this isn't

00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.121
really doing anything right now you can

00:34:17.161 --> 00:34:19.501
set it to whatever you want and i

00:34:19.521 --> 00:34:19.981
would just be

00:34:21.402 --> 00:34:23.202
It doesn't make sense to me that that

00:34:23.242 --> 00:34:24.342
will always be the case.

00:34:24.463 --> 00:34:25.684
I think that the fact that they're doing

00:34:25.724 --> 00:34:27.103
that is concerning.

00:34:27.704 --> 00:34:30.925
And this is kind of similar to me

00:34:31.005 --> 00:34:33.327
to the current discussions that are going

00:34:33.487 --> 00:34:33.586
on

00:34:34.956 --> 00:34:36.659
In the Android world right now with

00:34:36.739 --> 00:34:38.059
developer verification,

00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:40.561
I think we are seeing a lot of

00:34:40.702 --> 00:34:44.643
app developers and a lot of custom Android

00:34:44.764 --> 00:34:47.867
operating systems and other third party

00:34:47.927 --> 00:34:51.168
open source app stores beginning to comply

00:34:51.268 --> 00:34:52.590
in advance with that sort of thing or

00:34:52.610 --> 00:34:53.690
make statements saying like, hey,

00:34:53.811 --> 00:34:55.431
we are going to participate in the

00:34:55.472 --> 00:34:57.054
developer verification system.

00:34:57.862 --> 00:35:00.684
And I think that that is unfortunate,

00:35:00.704 --> 00:35:02.364
because you could look at the Keep Android

00:35:02.425 --> 00:35:05.427
Open campaign for a lot of explanations on

00:35:05.487 --> 00:35:07.528
why you shouldn't be doing that.

00:35:07.568 --> 00:35:09.449
You should be taking a hardline stance and

00:35:09.490 --> 00:35:09.851
saying, hey,

00:35:09.951 --> 00:35:12.693
we're not going to comply with this

00:35:12.713 --> 00:35:13.092
system,

00:35:13.172 --> 00:35:17.356
even if that means some restrictions on

00:35:17.836 --> 00:35:19.297
where apps can be installed.

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:23.880
that is the best move to make our

00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.701
voices heard and to potentially make a

00:35:26.740 --> 00:35:27.161
difference.

00:35:28.061 --> 00:35:31.561
So it's just a similar thing here.

00:35:32.583 --> 00:35:33.402
Exactly like you said,

00:35:33.443 --> 00:35:36.923
I think that we got to take a

00:35:36.943 --> 00:35:38.983
stand and we can't lose our voice when

00:35:39.023 --> 00:35:39.724
it comes to this.

00:35:39.963 --> 00:35:42.985
And SystemD is...

00:35:45.351 --> 00:35:46.172
kind of giving that up,

00:35:47.532 --> 00:35:52.275
which is a real shame.

00:35:52.315 --> 00:35:53.396
Yeah, and I think,

00:35:54.315 --> 00:35:55.235
just to kind of add to what you

00:35:55.255 --> 00:35:56.556
said, I think, ironically...

00:35:58.228 --> 00:35:59.407
I think if we took more of that

00:35:59.447 --> 00:36:00.329
attitude of, like,

00:36:00.409 --> 00:36:01.528
let's have a seat at the table and

00:36:01.568 --> 00:36:04.128
try to steer this, I think, ironically,

00:36:04.208 --> 00:36:06.489
it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy

00:36:06.550 --> 00:36:06.969
in a good way,

00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:08.771
a good kind of irony, where, like,

00:36:09.110 --> 00:36:10.471
because we're participating,

00:36:10.891 --> 00:36:14.012
we might have more attention to be able

00:36:14.032 --> 00:36:15.351
to draw attention to these issues and

00:36:15.371 --> 00:36:15.972
point out, like,

00:36:16.231 --> 00:36:17.853
this is why age verification doesn't work.

00:36:18.132 --> 00:36:19.313
These are all the problems with age

00:36:19.333 --> 00:36:19.833
verification,

00:36:19.853 --> 00:36:21.012
the knock-on effects that are going to

00:36:21.032 --> 00:36:21.793
make things worse.

00:36:22.313 --> 00:36:23.934
And we might end up actually being able

00:36:23.974 --> 00:36:24.974
to do something about it.

00:36:25.375 --> 00:36:26.235
But, yeah, I think...

00:36:27.414 --> 00:36:28.614
I think definitely just I know we've

00:36:28.635 --> 00:36:29.795
called this out in the past with other

00:36:29.815 --> 00:36:30.155
stories,

00:36:30.175 --> 00:36:32.396
but just this attitude of like of,

00:36:32.516 --> 00:36:33.036
you know, oh, well,

00:36:33.056 --> 00:36:33.797
this doesn't affect me.

00:36:33.836 --> 00:36:35.016
So I don't care because I know how

00:36:35.036 --> 00:36:35.597
to get around it.

00:36:35.876 --> 00:36:36.556
Congratulations.

00:36:36.597 --> 00:36:37.396
It's coming for Linux.

00:36:37.456 --> 00:36:39.418
It's coming for the things that we use.

00:36:39.958 --> 00:36:41.498
We can't have that attitude forever

00:36:41.518 --> 00:36:42.778
because eventually we're going to run out

00:36:42.798 --> 00:36:44.378
of places that are not touched by this.

00:36:44.958 --> 00:36:45.599
Or at very least,

00:36:45.619 --> 00:36:47.000
they're only going to apply to like a

00:36:47.059 --> 00:36:48.119
handful of people that are

00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.300
really tech savvy and know how to write

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:51.001
their own code.

00:36:51.061 --> 00:36:52.742
And now we have privacy for one percent

00:36:52.762 --> 00:36:54.443
of people instead of, you know,

00:36:54.543 --> 00:36:55.925
right now where it's what, ten percent.

00:36:55.945 --> 00:36:56.224
I don't know.

00:36:56.244 --> 00:36:57.105
I'm just making up numbers.

00:36:57.164 --> 00:36:58.706
But my point being is like,

00:36:58.987 --> 00:37:01.347
I think standing up and trying to do

00:37:01.407 --> 00:37:03.548
something gives us more power and it

00:37:03.588 --> 00:37:05.690
builds momentum to the point where maybe I

00:37:05.710 --> 00:37:06.650
will be wrong, which for the record,

00:37:06.670 --> 00:37:07.612
these are the kind of things I'm happy

00:37:07.632 --> 00:37:09.193
to be wrong about where it's like, hey,

00:37:09.233 --> 00:37:10.893
we were able to roll back age verification

00:37:10.914 --> 00:37:13.014
because we took such an active role that

00:37:13.054 --> 00:37:14.155
we were able to spread awareness and

00:37:14.175 --> 00:37:14.576
attention.

00:37:14.835 --> 00:37:15.496
So, yeah.

00:37:16.653 --> 00:37:18.034
And real quick, just to roll here,

00:37:18.074 --> 00:37:18.474
point it out.

00:37:18.574 --> 00:37:19.956
Like, yeah, it's not age verification.

00:37:19.996 --> 00:37:21.157
It's identity verification.

00:37:21.597 --> 00:37:22.797
I'm trying to get more in the habit

00:37:22.818 --> 00:37:24.958
of saying that, but I don't always.

00:37:24.978 --> 00:37:26.119
So thank you for pointing that out because

00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:26.699
you are right.

00:37:28.081 --> 00:37:30.983
It's not just kids because how is it

00:37:31.003 --> 00:37:32.282
going to know if you're a kid without

00:37:32.322 --> 00:37:33.164
verifying everyone?

00:37:33.304 --> 00:37:34.744
So yeah, thank you for noting that.

00:37:35.605 --> 00:37:38.246
Yeah.

00:37:38.347 --> 00:37:40.088
It's an interesting story.

00:37:40.168 --> 00:37:41.028
I don't know if I have too much

00:37:41.268 --> 00:37:41.809
to add.

00:37:42.148 --> 00:37:42.168
I...

00:37:44.934 --> 00:37:48.135
I can certainly imagine some reasons that

00:37:48.175 --> 00:37:50.777
something like this could be useful in the

00:37:50.797 --> 00:37:51.677
grand scheme of things,

00:37:51.717 --> 00:37:54.557
regardless of age verification plans right

00:37:54.597 --> 00:37:54.777
now.

00:37:54.878 --> 00:37:58.500
But certainly the timing of this with all

00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:00.199
of the age verification stuff going on

00:38:00.219 --> 00:38:02.561
this year is extremely suspicious.

00:38:02.601 --> 00:38:06.061
So that doesn't give me high hopes for

00:38:06.121 --> 00:38:10.563
how this feature will be used.

00:38:10.623 --> 00:38:10.963
For sure.

00:38:14.375 --> 00:38:16.516
um i think we can move on from

00:38:16.556 --> 00:38:20.277
this story before we dive into the meta

00:38:20.336 --> 00:38:22.797
and google social media addiction ruling

00:38:23.476 --> 00:38:24.958
um i want to give some quick updates

00:38:24.998 --> 00:38:26.217
about what we've been working on at

00:38:26.237 --> 00:38:28.818
privacy guys this week um on the website

00:38:28.838 --> 00:38:30.858
side of things uh the big stuff has

00:38:30.898 --> 00:38:32.519
been a lot of news articles so there

00:38:32.659 --> 00:38:36.119
are a ton of stories that we aren't

00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:38.161
able to discuss here on this show but

00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.221
freya and others have been writing them in

00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:41.922
our news brief section which you can visit

00:38:42.061 --> 00:38:42.181
at

00:38:42.661 --> 00:38:44.523
privacyguides.org slash news.

00:38:44.862 --> 00:38:46.983
So some of the articles include the cadnet

00:38:47.143 --> 00:38:49.706
botnet hijacking ASUS routers.

00:38:50.585 --> 00:38:52.726
Good example of the kind of botnet issues

00:38:52.806 --> 00:38:54.108
I was talking about earlier in the router

00:38:54.128 --> 00:38:54.447
space.

00:38:55.568 --> 00:38:58.110
FBI seeking info from gamers who installed

00:38:58.150 --> 00:38:59.130
malware from Steam.

00:38:59.490 --> 00:39:01.952
Big tech creating an accord against online

00:39:01.992 --> 00:39:03.052
scams and fraud.

00:39:03.532 --> 00:39:05.934
A severe meta cybersecurity incident

00:39:05.954 --> 00:39:07.735
caused by an AI agent.

00:39:08.456 --> 00:39:10.217
Graphene OS saying that they won't

00:39:10.356 --> 00:39:11.777
implement age verification.

00:39:12.518 --> 00:39:13.518
which is fantastic,

00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:15.840
exactly what we do want to see,

00:39:16.021 --> 00:39:17.362
unlike SystemD here.

00:39:18.603 --> 00:39:21.567
A French aircraft carrier being located in

00:39:21.706 --> 00:39:23.728
real time via a fitness app,

00:39:23.748 --> 00:39:25.871
which we've definitely seen in the

00:39:25.911 --> 00:39:27.172
military before.

00:39:28.032 --> 00:39:30.114
Android-XVII getting a post-quantum

00:39:30.155 --> 00:39:33.277
cryptography upgrade and Vizio TVs.

00:39:33.998 --> 00:39:37.802
now requiring a walmart account um crazy

00:39:37.842 --> 00:39:39.764
stuff really annoying the smart tv

00:39:39.784 --> 00:39:42.766
industry uh so if any of you think

00:39:42.907 --> 00:39:45.309
any of those topics are interesting or

00:39:45.349 --> 00:39:46.891
want to learn more about them we have

00:39:46.931 --> 00:39:49.333
those articles again at privacyguides.org

00:39:49.393 --> 00:39:51.994
news all of those articles are also

00:39:52.155 --> 00:39:54.677
automatically published to our form when

00:39:54.717 --> 00:39:56.418
we publish them and there are some

00:39:56.458 --> 00:39:58.641
discussions that go on there or you can

00:39:58.721 --> 00:40:00.222
ask questions and follow up and we can

00:40:00.956 --> 00:40:01.576
Talk about it there.

00:40:02.576 --> 00:40:04.217
I think that's kind of the main stuff.

00:40:04.297 --> 00:40:05.836
I know that there have been more

00:40:05.896 --> 00:40:08.657
discussions in our forum and on the

00:40:08.697 --> 00:40:09.677
community side of things,

00:40:09.697 --> 00:40:11.619
but we're going to get into some of

00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:13.818
the biggest ones later on in the show,

00:40:13.838 --> 00:40:15.179
so I will leave that there.

00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:18.079
But I know Nate has some stuff to

00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:21.481
share about our YouTube channel and some

00:40:21.501 --> 00:40:22.541
videos we've published lately,

00:40:22.581 --> 00:40:23.621
so I will pass it over to you,

00:40:23.661 --> 00:40:23.882
Nate.

00:40:24.898 --> 00:40:28.460
Yeah, so just a really quick one here.

00:40:30.081 --> 00:40:32.041
Last, God, was it last week?

00:40:32.081 --> 00:40:32.862
It's been a week already.

00:40:33.782 --> 00:40:37.545
Jonah and I were invited to Austin, Texas,

00:40:38.005 --> 00:40:38.706
EFF Austin,

00:40:38.766 --> 00:40:39.947
which I am a board member of.

00:40:40.507 --> 00:40:42.628
We threw an unofficial South by Southwest

00:40:42.668 --> 00:40:44.349
party that we called EFF Austin

00:40:44.449 --> 00:40:47.271
Interactive because- I will just say,

00:40:47.291 --> 00:40:49.833
technically two weeks ago, Interactive.

00:40:49.873 --> 00:40:50.532
Two weeks ago, okay.

00:40:50.552 --> 00:40:52.434
We did that live show, if people remember.

00:40:52.454 --> 00:40:52.514
Yes.

00:40:52.534 --> 00:40:53.014
That was cool.

00:40:54.201 --> 00:40:54.400
Sorry,

00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:55.581
my sense of time is all checked up.

00:40:55.601 --> 00:40:57.041
It's been a busy couple weeks ever since

00:40:57.121 --> 00:40:57.561
I got back.

00:40:57.802 --> 00:40:59.202
It's crazy.

00:40:59.222 --> 00:40:59.481
But yeah,

00:40:59.521 --> 00:41:01.063
South by Southwest Interactive has been

00:41:01.103 --> 00:41:01.583
retired,

00:41:01.663 --> 00:41:04.284
so therefore we decided to be sneaky and

00:41:04.344 --> 00:41:04.784
use the name.

00:41:05.423 --> 00:41:07.864
And Jonah and I got to film some

00:41:07.884 --> 00:41:08.505
of the talks,

00:41:08.724 --> 00:41:09.704
and we thought they were really

00:41:09.744 --> 00:41:10.264
insightful,

00:41:10.324 --> 00:41:11.525
so we've been publishing them on our

00:41:11.545 --> 00:41:11.844
channel.

00:41:12.666 --> 00:41:13.726
We have Hugh Forrest,

00:41:13.766 --> 00:41:15.505
who was actually one of the co-founders of

00:41:15.545 --> 00:41:17.686
South by Southwest Interactive, who gave,

00:41:18.206 --> 00:41:18.427
I thought,

00:41:18.447 --> 00:41:20.228
a really good talk about South by

00:41:20.268 --> 00:41:20.628
Southwest's

00:41:22.168 --> 00:41:24.268
and how it ruined the world um good

00:41:24.289 --> 00:41:26.550
talk so check that out uh dr sharon

00:41:26.570 --> 00:41:28.791
strover who is a professor at ut austin

00:41:29.291 --> 00:41:31.072
talked about public opinions of

00:41:31.112 --> 00:41:33.675
surveillance technology which is i thought

00:41:33.695 --> 00:41:35.795
was very hopeful um you might be surprised

00:41:35.815 --> 00:41:37.916
to check that out and then uh john

00:41:37.936 --> 00:41:38.617
lebkowski

00:41:39.456 --> 00:41:41.297
who is also an EFF Austin board member

00:41:41.438 --> 00:41:45.000
and very early pioneer of the internet.

00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:45.481
Um,

00:41:45.981 --> 00:41:47.601
he's been around since the early days and

00:41:48.442 --> 00:41:49.003
I swear to God,

00:41:49.043 --> 00:41:50.164
I feel like he has a story about

00:41:50.284 --> 00:41:50.603
every,

00:41:50.724 --> 00:41:52.405
like if you name somebody in the digital

00:41:52.445 --> 00:41:54.545
space, um, like Phil Zimmerman or,

00:41:54.726 --> 00:41:55.347
you know, um,

00:41:56.027 --> 00:41:56.708
Pretty much anybody.

00:41:56.768 --> 00:41:57.588
I feel like he knows them.

00:41:57.628 --> 00:41:59.028
Cory Doctorow, like he knows them.

00:41:59.108 --> 00:41:59.789
He's met them.

00:42:00.170 --> 00:42:01.050
He's got a story.

00:42:01.471 --> 00:42:01.831
But anyways,

00:42:01.871 --> 00:42:03.932
he gave a very short talk that I

00:42:03.952 --> 00:42:05.574
would loosely describe as like the state

00:42:05.594 --> 00:42:07.135
of the internet and a call to action.

00:42:07.576 --> 00:42:08.717
I think it's less than five minutes.

00:42:08.916 --> 00:42:10.157
That was definitely the shortest one.

00:42:10.197 --> 00:42:12.260
So if any of those sound interesting,

00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:13.721
head over to our YouTube channel or it

00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:16.202
is also over on PeerTube and check those

00:42:16.362 --> 00:42:17.623
out because they were really good.

00:42:18.139 --> 00:42:18.679
Yeah,

00:42:18.699 --> 00:42:20.121
I will just say I might be a

00:42:20.161 --> 00:42:22.601
little biased, but I did love Dr.

00:42:22.621 --> 00:42:23.902
Sharon Strover's talk a lot,

00:42:24.702 --> 00:42:26.704
just mainly because, well,

00:42:26.804 --> 00:42:27.784
a lot of reasons, actually.

00:42:27.844 --> 00:42:29.324
But she included a segment about

00:42:29.425 --> 00:42:31.465
Minneapolis and what's going on here that

00:42:31.626 --> 00:42:32.967
I thought was interesting as well.

00:42:33.306 --> 00:42:35.347
So totally,

00:42:35.427 --> 00:42:36.987
totally check that out because all of

00:42:37.007 --> 00:42:38.548
these mass surveillance systems in cities

00:42:38.588 --> 00:42:38.889
right now,

00:42:38.929 --> 00:42:40.969
we've talked so much about flock in other

00:42:41.010 --> 00:42:42.731
systems here on this show.

00:42:44.052 --> 00:42:44.911
And it's a really good,

00:42:46.172 --> 00:42:47.172
really good take on all of that.

00:42:48.992 --> 00:42:50.954
Yeah, for sure.

00:42:50.974 --> 00:42:53.355
And not to beat a dead horse,

00:42:53.394 --> 00:42:57.295
but I would say it's as fact-based as

00:42:57.315 --> 00:42:57.755
you can get.

00:42:57.817 --> 00:42:57.976
I mean,

00:42:57.996 --> 00:42:59.797
it is a lot of surveys and self-reporting,

00:43:00.137 --> 00:43:00.918
but it's not just like, oh,

00:43:00.938 --> 00:43:02.438
we read some news articles or we looked

00:43:02.458 --> 00:43:03.278
at Twitter.

00:43:03.378 --> 00:43:05.179
It's like they went out and tried to

00:43:05.219 --> 00:43:07.139
get the best numbers they possibly could.

00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:08.161
So it's really good stuff.

00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:11.221
All of this stuff, the articles,

00:43:11.240 --> 00:43:11.880
the videos,

00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:13.541
the upcoming videos that I've been teasing

00:43:13.581 --> 00:43:13.742
at,

00:43:13.782 --> 00:43:15.322
all of this is made possible by our

00:43:15.342 --> 00:43:15.842
supporters.

00:43:16.244 --> 00:43:17.664
So if you are not a supporter and

00:43:17.704 --> 00:43:18.344
you would like to be,

00:43:18.405 --> 00:43:19.784
you can sign up for a membership or

00:43:19.864 --> 00:43:21.606
donate at privacyguides.org.

00:43:21.985 --> 00:43:23.047
We also have a merch shop,

00:43:23.387 --> 00:43:25.068
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:43:25.268 --> 00:43:26.949
And I think we've added some new designs

00:43:27.009 --> 00:43:28.309
ever since we launched our activism

00:43:28.349 --> 00:43:28.690
section.

00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:29.710
So be sure to check that out if

00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:30.251
you're interested.

00:43:30.911 --> 00:43:32.512
Privacy guides is a nonprofit that

00:43:32.552 --> 00:43:34.114
researches and shares privacy related

00:43:34.134 --> 00:43:36.096
information and facilitates a community on

00:43:36.137 --> 00:43:38.018
our forum and matrix where people can ask

00:43:38.057 --> 00:43:39.880
questions and get advice about staying

00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:41.021
private online and preserving their

00:43:41.061 --> 00:43:41.822
digital rights.

00:43:42.563 --> 00:43:44.224
And we'll talk a little bit more about

00:43:44.244 --> 00:43:44.724
that later.

00:43:44.784 --> 00:43:45.306
But for now,

00:43:45.385 --> 00:43:47.168
we're going to talk about Hong Kong and

00:43:47.288 --> 00:43:49.891
a new law regarding device passwords.

00:43:49.971 --> 00:43:51.472
And I'm going to turn that one over

00:43:51.512 --> 00:43:52.012
to Jonah.

00:43:53.148 --> 00:43:53.668
All right.

00:43:53.869 --> 00:43:56.610
This was reported by the BBC.

00:43:56.911 --> 00:43:59.132
Hong Kong police can now demand phone

00:43:59.152 --> 00:44:02.052
passwords under a new national security

00:44:02.112 --> 00:44:02.472
rules.

00:44:05.233 --> 00:44:06.273
This article starts out,

00:44:06.293 --> 00:44:08.753
Hong Kong police can now demand phone or

00:44:08.793 --> 00:44:10.255
computer passwords from those who are

00:44:10.295 --> 00:44:12.675
suspected of breaching the wide-ranging

00:44:12.976 --> 00:44:14.135
national security law.

00:44:14.396 --> 00:44:16.197
Those who refuse could face up to a

00:44:16.257 --> 00:44:19.557
year in jail and a fine of up

00:44:19.657 --> 00:44:22.079
to Hong Kong dollars,

00:44:22.318 --> 00:44:23.099
which is about US dollars.

00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:27.521
and individuals who provide false or

00:44:27.581 --> 00:44:30.222
misleading information could face up to

00:44:30.282 --> 00:44:32.001
three years in jail.

00:44:32.322 --> 00:44:34.123
It comes as part of new amendments to

00:44:34.143 --> 00:44:36.483
a bylaw under the national security law

00:44:36.503 --> 00:44:39.184
that the government gazetted on Monday.

00:44:39.644 --> 00:44:41.365
The NSO was introduced in Hong Kong in

00:44:41.385 --> 00:44:43.266
twenty twenty in a week in wake of

00:44:43.346 --> 00:44:46.047
massive pro-democracy protests the year

00:44:46.067 --> 00:44:46.487
before.

00:44:46.827 --> 00:44:48.967
Authorities say the laws which target acts

00:44:48.987 --> 00:44:51.509
like terrorism and secession are necessary

00:44:51.528 --> 00:44:52.789
for stability, stability,

00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:55.831
But critics say they are tools to quash

00:44:56.052 --> 00:44:56.552
consent.

00:44:58.713 --> 00:44:59.155
Of course,

00:44:59.195 --> 00:45:01.135
this is an issue that we have talked

00:45:01.175 --> 00:45:03.398
about in other countries.

00:45:03.597 --> 00:45:08.021
Certainly in the UK, for example,

00:45:08.141 --> 00:45:10.163
this is a problem right now that we

00:45:10.202 --> 00:45:10.583
know of.

00:45:11.123 --> 00:45:14.226
It's also kind of a gray area in

00:45:14.588 --> 00:45:14.947
U.S.

00:45:14.987 --> 00:45:17.550
law where you technically don't have to

00:45:17.570 --> 00:45:18.492
provide this information,

00:45:18.532 --> 00:45:20.614
but what they can do for you,

00:45:20.974 --> 00:45:22.655
do with you in the meantime is kind

00:45:22.695 --> 00:45:24.557
of up in the air and not decided.

00:45:24.597 --> 00:45:26.559
We've seen stories certainly of people

00:45:27.219 --> 00:45:28.902
being held in temporary custody.

00:45:29.722 --> 00:45:32.706
temporary jails for years or more because

00:45:32.726 --> 00:45:35.990
they didn't decide to comply with sharing

00:45:36.010 --> 00:45:38.353
their passwords with police or they simply

00:45:38.434 --> 00:45:39.856
forgot their passwords and weren't able

00:45:39.896 --> 00:45:42.057
to, which is always a possibility.

00:45:44.481 --> 00:45:45.561
And in a lot of cases,

00:45:45.661 --> 00:45:50.141
it is exactly used to quash dissent or

00:45:50.202 --> 00:45:52.302
target people who otherwise haven't

00:45:52.322 --> 00:45:53.163
committed crimes.

00:45:55.182 --> 00:45:57.744
This is a big part of the issues

00:45:57.784 --> 00:46:00.264
that we see with encryption in general and

00:46:00.364 --> 00:46:01.364
end-to-end encryption,

00:46:01.405 --> 00:46:04.125
where governments really want to make any

00:46:04.204 --> 00:46:08.246
form of encryption or end-to-end

00:46:08.266 --> 00:46:09.925
encryption illegal.

00:46:10.266 --> 00:46:12.407
Simply the act of using it because it...

00:46:13.146 --> 00:46:15.128
certainly makes it much easier to

00:46:15.469 --> 00:46:17.110
investigate crimes if you don't actually

00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:19.570
have to do any investigation of the crime

00:46:19.630 --> 00:46:20.771
or any of the data involved.

00:46:20.811 --> 00:46:21.652
If you can just say, hey,

00:46:21.913 --> 00:46:23.634
the fact that this encrypted data exists

00:46:23.773 --> 00:46:26.896
is a crime enough that

00:46:28.356 --> 00:46:29.996
can be used to target a lot of

00:46:30.036 --> 00:46:31.858
people who have otherwise done nothing

00:46:31.878 --> 00:46:32.137
wrong.

00:46:32.157 --> 00:46:34.699
And it wouldn't surprise me to see the

00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:37.960
same thing happen here.

00:46:38.860 --> 00:46:42.121
There's a couple stories mentioned in this

00:46:42.141 --> 00:46:42.940
BBC article,

00:46:42.981 --> 00:46:44.161
if you want to check it out later,

00:46:44.181 --> 00:46:49.242
about some examples of activists and other

00:46:49.262 --> 00:46:53.023
big names in the area being sentenced to

00:46:53.083 --> 00:46:53.963
jail or being

00:46:56.106 --> 00:46:59.268
being targeted by laws that expand on this

00:46:59.288 --> 00:47:01.389
kind of NSL national security law.

00:47:03.349 --> 00:47:07.391
So it's definitely being used to target

00:47:07.411 --> 00:47:08.713
protesters, activists,

00:47:09.273 --> 00:47:14.994
former opposition lawmakers even in Hong

00:47:15.014 --> 00:47:15.335
Kong.

00:47:15.396 --> 00:47:19.637
So unfortunate stuff for sure to happen

00:47:19.677 --> 00:47:19.898
here.

00:47:20.018 --> 00:47:20.818
I think that that

00:47:22.208 --> 00:47:23.527
would be would be kind of my main

00:47:23.568 --> 00:47:23.909
point.

00:47:24.108 --> 00:47:25.548
It's it's something that we could

00:47:25.608 --> 00:47:29.851
certainly see expand to other countries.

00:47:29.891 --> 00:47:31.811
And it's something that if other countries

00:47:31.990 --> 00:47:33.552
aren't doing this,

00:47:34.411 --> 00:47:36.293
there are at least plans to do something

00:47:36.333 --> 00:47:36.773
like this,

00:47:36.833 --> 00:47:39.893
which is is bad news for everyone around

00:47:39.934 --> 00:47:42.815
the world.

00:47:42.894 --> 00:47:43.494
Yeah, Nate,

00:47:43.514 --> 00:47:45.496
do you have any other thoughts on this

00:47:45.516 --> 00:47:45.815
story?

00:47:48.106 --> 00:47:48.686
I don't think so.

00:47:48.706 --> 00:47:50.228
I think you kind of covered it.

00:47:51.469 --> 00:47:52.610
Jordan said they've already been doing

00:47:52.630 --> 00:47:53.751
this for years in Australia.

00:47:54.233 --> 00:47:55.873
That's wild because, yeah,

00:47:56.655 --> 00:47:59.518
it's very – here in the U.S.,

00:47:59.737 --> 00:48:01.789
I –

00:48:01.043 --> 00:48:01.643
Oh my gosh.

00:48:02.045 --> 00:48:03.344
I've taken in so much information the last

00:48:03.364 --> 00:48:04.085
few days I'm forgetting.

00:48:05.405 --> 00:48:05.965
Basically,

00:48:06.367 --> 00:48:09.327
the way the courts are supposed to work

00:48:10.027 --> 00:48:12.949
is they're supposed to take existing laws

00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:14.349
– like when it comes to new technology,

00:48:14.690 --> 00:48:16.231
they're supposed to take existing laws and

00:48:16.251 --> 00:48:19.032
interpretation and figure out how to apply

00:48:19.052 --> 00:48:20.512
them to the new laws in a way

00:48:20.512 --> 00:48:22.074
– supposed to,

00:48:22.094 --> 00:48:24.554
for the record –

00:48:22.952 --> 00:48:25.753
in a way that protects Americans and

00:48:25.793 --> 00:48:27.155
preserves their existing rights.

00:48:27.375 --> 00:48:29.876
So for example, with privacy, right?

00:48:29.896 --> 00:48:30.657
Here in the US,

00:48:30.697 --> 00:48:31.597
we have the Fourth Amendment,

00:48:31.617 --> 00:48:33.179
which says that cops need a warrant to

00:48:33.219 --> 00:48:34.099
come in and search your home.

00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:35.641
And so in theory,

00:48:36.282 --> 00:48:37.922
the way the court is supposed to interpret

00:48:37.943 --> 00:48:39.583
that when it comes to the electronic world

00:48:39.704 --> 00:48:40.784
is the same way.

00:48:40.945 --> 00:48:42.206
They're supposed to figure out,

00:48:42.306 --> 00:48:43.286
electronically speaking,

00:48:43.347 --> 00:48:44.427
what counts as your home,

00:48:45.108 --> 00:48:46.969
and therefore the police would need a

00:48:47.009 --> 00:48:48.309
warrant to come in and search that.

00:48:48.851 --> 00:48:49.490
So-

00:48:50.501 --> 00:48:51.802
Yeah,

00:48:51.842 --> 00:48:52.902
that's not to say like this couldn't

00:48:52.943 --> 00:48:54.083
happen here in the US because in the

00:48:54.143 --> 00:48:57.306
US we have repeatedly refused to make a

00:48:57.407 --> 00:48:59.268
final decision on whether or not you need

00:48:59.309 --> 00:49:00.248
a warrant to search your phone.

00:49:00.309 --> 00:49:01.690
But it's just really.

00:49:03.492 --> 00:49:03.731
Yeah,

00:49:03.911 --> 00:49:05.833
it's really unfortunate because I'm with

00:49:05.853 --> 00:49:05.974
you.

00:49:06.014 --> 00:49:07.755
This is something I think we could see

00:49:08.777 --> 00:49:10.978
here in America, in the UK,

00:49:11.018 --> 00:49:11.778
if it's not already.

00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:13.940
I mean, anywhere, really.

00:49:14.061 --> 00:49:14.961
And it's just it's such a.

00:49:17.112 --> 00:49:18.853
Things get really bad once we go downhill

00:49:18.932 --> 00:49:19.452
like that.

00:49:20.454 --> 00:49:21.193
And, you know,

00:49:21.233 --> 00:49:22.494
they also I think they said,

00:49:22.534 --> 00:49:23.673
what is it like you could face?

00:49:24.574 --> 00:49:25.155
Yeah, here it is.

00:49:25.175 --> 00:49:26.815
They could face a fine or jail for

00:49:26.894 --> 00:49:28.954
providing false or misleading information.

00:49:29.295 --> 00:49:30.235
So like my first thought is if you

00:49:30.255 --> 00:49:31.635
have a graphene phone and they're like,

00:49:31.715 --> 00:49:32.456
oh, what's your passcode?

00:49:32.476 --> 00:49:33.576
And you give them the duress pin that

00:49:33.635 --> 00:49:34.295
wipes the phone.

00:49:34.596 --> 00:49:35.195
Congratulations.

00:49:35.217 --> 00:49:36.336
You're still going to jail because that

00:49:36.376 --> 00:49:37.436
wasn't the pin and you knew it.

00:49:37.556 --> 00:49:38.697
You knew that wasn't what they meant.

00:49:38.896 --> 00:49:42.518
So, yeah, it's absolutely.

00:49:42.557 --> 00:49:42.898
It's bad.

00:49:43.708 --> 00:49:46.449
I have got a ton of thoughts about

00:49:46.510 --> 00:49:49.132
courts, uh, interpreting the laws,

00:49:49.192 --> 00:49:50.952
but I think we can talk about that

00:49:51.012 --> 00:49:52.434
in the next story here.

00:49:52.494 --> 00:49:52.853
So, well,

00:49:52.873 --> 00:49:55.934
maybe we should get into that one.

00:49:56.536 --> 00:49:56.856
Okay.

00:49:57.255 --> 00:49:57.715
Yeah.

00:49:57.815 --> 00:50:00.197
So, uh, on that note, um,

00:50:00.358 --> 00:50:03.338
let's talk about the courts and meta and

00:50:03.398 --> 00:50:04.800
Google and, uh,

00:50:06.172 --> 00:50:06.431
Man,

00:50:06.572 --> 00:50:08.893
so this isn't directly privacy related,

00:50:08.934 --> 00:50:10.536
but it has a lot of knock-on effects.

00:50:10.755 --> 00:50:12.876
And this headline, this comes from NPR.

00:50:13.297 --> 00:50:14.878
I was going to quote Reuters,

00:50:15.018 --> 00:50:16.740
but they do this annoying thing where it

00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:18.942
doesn't do a link preview in Ghost.

00:50:20.222 --> 00:50:23.206
But NPR also covered this story very well.

00:50:23.226 --> 00:50:24.286
This is a very thorough article.

00:50:24.766 --> 00:50:25.367
And the headline says,

00:50:25.407 --> 00:50:27.407
jury finds Meta and Google negligent in

00:50:27.507 --> 00:50:28.927
social media harms trial.

00:50:29.288 --> 00:50:31.949
So the short story – the short version

00:50:32.048 --> 00:50:33.489
is there's a woman.

00:50:33.730 --> 00:50:36.190
I believe some other article said that

00:50:36.210 --> 00:50:37.210
she's in her twenties.

00:50:37.990 --> 00:50:39.652
And she was suing Meta and Google.

00:50:39.692 --> 00:50:41.271
And she also sued Snap and TikTok,

00:50:41.291 --> 00:50:43.253
but they settled before it went to trial.

00:50:43.373 --> 00:50:45.152
So Meta and Google went all the way

00:50:45.172 --> 00:50:45.574
to trial.

00:50:46.253 --> 00:50:46.534
And –

00:50:47.650 --> 00:50:49.291
This woman basically says she's been

00:50:49.311 --> 00:50:50.833
addicted to social media since she was a

00:50:50.893 --> 00:50:54.393
child because these companies purposely

00:50:54.434 --> 00:50:55.835
make social media addictive.

00:50:56.594 --> 00:50:57.295
And therefore,

00:50:57.335 --> 00:50:58.356
they should be held accountable.

00:50:59.117 --> 00:51:00.697
And the jury agreed.

00:51:01.458 --> 00:51:02.978
And they awarded this woman six million

00:51:02.998 --> 00:51:03.838
dollars in damages,

00:51:04.338 --> 00:51:05.260
mostly coming from Meta.

00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:08.041
And the article rightly points out for all

00:51:08.081 --> 00:51:09.141
of you who are thinking like, oh,

00:51:09.161 --> 00:51:10.181
six million dollars, who cares?

00:51:10.202 --> 00:51:11.262
You're one hundred percent right.

00:51:12.101 --> 00:51:14.063
Mark Zuckerberg probably – his breakfast

00:51:14.103 --> 00:51:15.224
probably cost six million dollars.

00:51:15.264 --> 00:51:15.786
He doesn't care.

00:51:16.547 --> 00:51:19.590
But what matters is that this is now

00:51:19.789 --> 00:51:20.311
on record,

00:51:20.751 --> 00:51:23.173
and this is now set a precedent,

00:51:24.255 --> 00:51:29.377
and that –

00:51:25.675 --> 00:51:26.114
Oh, man,

00:51:26.494 --> 00:51:27.876
this this just has so many knock on

00:51:27.896 --> 00:51:28.115
effects.

00:51:28.135 --> 00:51:29.036
And I think that's why we want to

00:51:29.076 --> 00:51:30.677
talk about this is not even so much

00:51:30.717 --> 00:51:33.177
for what the story itself is actually

00:51:33.217 --> 00:51:33.478
about.

00:51:33.597 --> 00:51:34.237
Although, for the record,

00:51:34.297 --> 00:51:36.619
I think that is a very important thing

00:51:36.878 --> 00:51:38.920
that I'll elaborate on in a second.

00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:42.762
But the fact that it holds these companies

00:51:42.782 --> 00:51:45.023
accountable and opens the door for so many

00:51:45.083 --> 00:51:47.603
more legal actions in the future.

00:51:48.623 --> 00:51:50.565
On behalf of everyone, I feel like,

00:51:50.585 --> 00:51:51.967
because who hasn't had a Facebook account

00:51:51.987 --> 00:51:53.789
or a YouTube account at some point?

00:51:54.429 --> 00:51:56.471
Many of you are watching on YouTube.

00:51:56.971 --> 00:51:57.972
And thank you for watching, by the way.

00:51:58.652 --> 00:51:59.552
But yeah,

00:51:59.893 --> 00:52:01.094
I do want to point out real quick,

00:52:01.655 --> 00:52:02.916
again, personal opinion here.

00:52:03.916 --> 00:52:06.639
I've been saying for a long time about

00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:09.402
a variety of privacy topics that I think

00:52:09.442 --> 00:52:10.282
it's extremely...

00:52:11.903 --> 00:52:13.284
We'll take misinformation, for example.

00:52:13.405 --> 00:52:14.545
I know a lot of people who are

00:52:14.585 --> 00:52:16.427
like, oh, I don't fall for fake news.

00:52:17.628 --> 00:52:18.869
That is extremely arrogant.

00:52:19.048 --> 00:52:20.110
And I'm including myself in this.

00:52:20.570 --> 00:52:22.032
I have definitely read stories that

00:52:22.052 --> 00:52:22.913
somebody else is like, hey,

00:52:22.932 --> 00:52:24.273
here's an opposing viewpoint and all the

00:52:24.293 --> 00:52:24.934
things they left out.

00:52:24.954 --> 00:52:25.514
And I'm like, oh,

00:52:25.894 --> 00:52:26.876
I probably called that one wrong.

00:52:27.396 --> 00:52:29.898
Because when there are companies whose

00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:32.221
whole job, forty hours a week,

00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:33.561
is to sit there and pump out fake

00:52:33.601 --> 00:52:33.842
news,

00:52:34.824 --> 00:52:36.425
They're going to get you at some point

00:52:36.445 --> 00:52:37.786
or another because that's just how it

00:52:37.826 --> 00:52:38.106
works.

00:52:38.126 --> 00:52:38.246
Like,

00:52:38.286 --> 00:52:40.067
think about your job and how good you

00:52:40.126 --> 00:52:41.788
are at your job because you do it

00:52:41.807 --> 00:52:42.367
all the time.

00:52:42.688 --> 00:52:44.309
And now imagine some random person coming

00:52:44.329 --> 00:52:45.128
in off the street and being like,

00:52:45.248 --> 00:52:45.789
I could do that.

00:52:46.369 --> 00:52:47.389
You know, whatever your job is,

00:52:47.431 --> 00:52:47.911
it doesn't matter.

00:52:47.931 --> 00:52:48.431
It's like, no, dude,

00:52:48.451 --> 00:52:49.972
there's certain skills and flows and

00:52:50.012 --> 00:52:51.913
processes that I've learned over the

00:52:51.952 --> 00:52:52.273
years.

00:52:52.932 --> 00:52:54.893
And it's the same thing with these.

00:52:55.215 --> 00:52:55.514
I think...

00:52:56.295 --> 00:52:58.054
we really underestimate how addictive

00:52:58.094 --> 00:52:58.755
social media is.

00:52:58.775 --> 00:52:59.735
And I'm not trying to let people off

00:52:59.755 --> 00:53:00.076
the hook.

00:53:00.416 --> 00:53:01.815
Agency comes with pros and cons.

00:53:01.856 --> 00:53:03.077
If you're in charge of your own actions,

00:53:03.356 --> 00:53:04.336
you're also responsible for the

00:53:04.376 --> 00:53:04.996
consequences.

00:53:05.516 --> 00:53:07.438
But at the same time,

00:53:07.657 --> 00:53:08.978
we have to acknowledge these things are

00:53:09.018 --> 00:53:11.518
made to be addictive by experts who are

00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:14.798
paid to make this thing as addictive as

00:53:14.838 --> 00:53:16.980
possible to keep you there one second

00:53:17.019 --> 00:53:17.400
longer.

00:53:17.780 --> 00:53:19.221
And I feel like when we discredit that,

00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:20.521
it's like we're forgetting that

00:53:21.601 --> 00:53:22.643
It would be like saying, oh,

00:53:22.722 --> 00:53:23.784
cigarettes aren't that addictive.

00:53:23.943 --> 00:53:25.806
Bro, they bake nicotine into it.

00:53:26.085 --> 00:53:26.967
Yes, it is.

00:53:27.487 --> 00:53:29.369
And it's the same thing here with this

00:53:29.389 --> 00:53:30.891
kind of stuff is like this stuff is

00:53:30.951 --> 00:53:32.713
made to be addictive.

00:53:33.273 --> 00:53:36.817
And I think we're just really – yeah,

00:53:36.856 --> 00:53:37.737
I know I'm kind of going in circles

00:53:37.757 --> 00:53:37.858
now,

00:53:37.878 --> 00:53:40.540
but I think we're just really being –

00:53:41.652 --> 00:53:43.074
it's just really not good to ignore that

00:53:43.173 --> 00:53:43.934
is what I'm trying to say.

00:53:44.434 --> 00:53:45.655
So yeah.

00:53:46.697 --> 00:53:48.059
I think that's kind of all I've got

00:53:48.099 --> 00:53:48.679
for now on that one.

00:53:48.739 --> 00:53:49.739
I know you said you have a ton

00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:50.440
of thoughts on this.

00:53:50.481 --> 00:53:52.963
So what, what was your takeaway from this?

00:53:53.503 --> 00:53:57.065
So I've seen a ton of mixed responses

00:53:57.126 --> 00:53:59.327
to this case on the internet,

00:53:59.387 --> 00:54:01.028
and I have a lot of mixed feelings

00:54:01.128 --> 00:54:02.650
on this myself, because I,

00:54:03.230 --> 00:54:04.090
even on this show,

00:54:04.130 --> 00:54:07.713
have said that all of the social media

00:54:07.753 --> 00:54:07.972
stuff,

00:54:07.992 --> 00:54:09.514
and especially the stuff that Meta is

00:54:09.554 --> 00:54:10.353
doing, which we've,

00:54:10.793 --> 00:54:12.375
I think it's even mentioned in this

00:54:12.434 --> 00:54:15.317
article in a separate case from the six

00:54:15.356 --> 00:54:16.197
million dollar one,

00:54:16.257 --> 00:54:16.458
but

00:54:16.838 --> 00:54:18.818
It's been found in Discovery that they

00:54:18.838 --> 00:54:20.519
have internal discussions about

00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:22.581
specifically targeting kids who are

00:54:22.661 --> 00:54:25.422
thirteen or even younger and making it as

00:54:25.523 --> 00:54:26.483
addictive as possible.

00:54:26.543 --> 00:54:28.905
And this is, in my opinion,

00:54:29.505 --> 00:54:31.387
a public health concern for exactly the

00:54:31.447 --> 00:54:36.110
same reasons that marketing cigarettes to

00:54:36.150 --> 00:54:37.990
children was a massive health concern.

00:54:41.092 --> 00:54:42.952
But on the other hand,

00:54:43.193 --> 00:54:47.373
I think that this really closely relates

00:54:47.514 --> 00:54:50.554
to Section two thirty issues that we've

00:54:50.574 --> 00:54:51.034
seen here.

00:54:51.394 --> 00:54:53.195
And the social media companies originally

00:54:53.255 --> 00:54:55.795
tried to use Section two thirty as a

00:54:55.835 --> 00:54:56.516
way to say, hey,

00:54:56.556 --> 00:54:58.936
we shouldn't be responsible for any of

00:54:58.956 --> 00:54:59.115
this.

00:54:59.135 --> 00:55:00.697
And they tried to get the case dismissed.

00:55:01.976 --> 00:55:04.659
Thankfully, in this specific case,

00:55:04.818 --> 00:55:07.420
they chose not to address any section

00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:08.961
two-thirty issues at all.

00:55:09.001 --> 00:55:10.523
So this can't be used as a way

00:55:10.563 --> 00:55:14.865
to like get around section two-thirty in a

00:55:14.905 --> 00:55:15.626
court case.

00:55:16.126 --> 00:55:17.907
That still applies in this case,

00:55:17.967 --> 00:55:20.349
did specifically focus on the design of

00:55:20.389 --> 00:55:22.690
these apps and kind of the algorithm that

00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:24.431
they're using and not on the content of

00:55:24.472 --> 00:55:25.952
these apps themselves.

00:55:26.773 --> 00:55:27.373
Um,

00:55:27.414 --> 00:55:29.956
but I have a lot of fears here

00:55:29.996 --> 00:55:33.557
that this case will be used as a

00:55:33.637 --> 00:55:35.820
gateway to attack some of this section two

00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:36.400
thirty stuff.

00:55:37.121 --> 00:55:38.061
Um,

00:55:38.101 --> 00:55:39.862
because I think it is not a stretch

00:55:39.922 --> 00:55:42.005
for a lot of these, uh,

00:55:43.222 --> 00:55:45.023
concerned parent groups or these

00:55:45.063 --> 00:55:48.304
conservative religious groups to say, hey,

00:55:48.344 --> 00:55:49.744
you know,

00:55:49.764 --> 00:55:52.465
the algorithm on this app turned my child

00:55:52.545 --> 00:55:55.065
trans or gay or what have you,

00:55:55.445 --> 00:55:57.806
and they just blame the algorithm instead

00:55:57.826 --> 00:55:58.425
of the content,

00:55:58.445 --> 00:56:00.065
and it's a new approach to attack these

00:56:00.106 --> 00:56:00.666
companies.

00:56:01.606 --> 00:56:03.106
And depending on how those go,

00:56:03.507 --> 00:56:08.947
it could be a similar case to either

00:56:09.547 --> 00:56:11.047
attack these companies without

00:56:13.458 --> 00:56:14.900
Section two thirty being involved,

00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:16.739
or this could be used as an excuse

00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:20.360
to implement such something like COSA or

00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:22.541
the repeal of Section two thirty in the

00:56:22.561 --> 00:56:23.001
future.

00:56:23.362 --> 00:56:24.902
And this is just kind of a way

00:56:25.083 --> 00:56:25.282
in.

00:56:26.543 --> 00:56:29.585
Even though the issue at play here really

00:56:29.625 --> 00:56:32.045
has nothing to do with the content,

00:56:33.186 --> 00:56:36.266
I think that the parallels here to the

00:56:36.327 --> 00:56:38.327
tobacco industry and how they were

00:56:38.407 --> 00:56:38.907
marketed

00:56:39.487 --> 00:56:41.269
they were marketing to children,

00:56:41.309 --> 00:56:41.989
for example,

00:56:42.170 --> 00:56:44.431
are very apt here and they make a

00:56:44.472 --> 00:56:45.092
lot of sense.

00:56:45.112 --> 00:56:47.375
And that is a case where like regulation

00:56:47.394 --> 00:56:47.875
was needed.

00:56:47.934 --> 00:56:50.197
And I think in a similar way,

00:56:50.677 --> 00:56:53.280
like the way that these apps are designed

00:56:53.739 --> 00:56:55.702
and the way that the algorithms work,

00:56:55.742 --> 00:56:57.724
which is to kind of find all of

00:56:57.764 --> 00:56:58.304
the most

00:56:59.125 --> 00:57:02.027
inflammatory and addictive content they

00:57:02.047 --> 00:57:05.108
can find um and really highlight that

00:57:05.309 --> 00:57:07.210
which is not the fault of the content

00:57:07.251 --> 00:57:09.052
itself but it's the fault of the algorithm

00:57:09.072 --> 00:57:10.612
that these apps designed i think that that

00:57:10.693 --> 00:57:15.795
is a big problem and just like um

00:57:16.637 --> 00:57:20.920
the the tobacco industry um which i mean

00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:22.981
their their products weren't banned um

00:57:23.121 --> 00:57:24.382
they're they're still around you can buy

00:57:24.422 --> 00:57:27.284
them anywhere um but they really got hit

00:57:27.344 --> 00:57:28.143
with um

00:57:29.164 --> 00:57:30.789
huge restrictions on marketing and how

00:57:30.809 --> 00:57:31.851
they can sell their product.

00:57:32.172 --> 00:57:33.434
And I think that that is probably

00:57:33.474 --> 00:57:36.340
something that should happen here.

00:57:39.416 --> 00:57:40.077
And just like that,

00:57:40.137 --> 00:57:43.099
I think the fact that cigarettes weren't

00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:43.900
banned, for example,

00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.063
that's kind of similar to how all of

00:57:46.103 --> 00:57:47.625
the content on these apps shouldn't be

00:57:47.664 --> 00:57:49.346
banned or restricted.

00:57:49.405 --> 00:57:50.907
We can't be going after the content

00:57:50.947 --> 00:57:51.427
itself.

00:57:52.509 --> 00:57:54.992
We have to be going after the format

00:57:55.032 --> 00:57:56.512
with which these companies are presenting

00:57:56.554 --> 00:57:57.695
that to make money.

00:57:57.735 --> 00:57:58.434
Because we know...

00:57:59.115 --> 00:58:01.398
that some social media is not inherently

00:58:01.438 --> 00:58:01.777
addictive.

00:58:01.818 --> 00:58:04.380
We can see non-algorithmic social media

00:58:05.501 --> 00:58:06.902
like Mastodon, for example,

00:58:06.943 --> 00:58:08.744
which doesn't have these problems,

00:58:08.804 --> 00:58:10.405
even though you can post the exact same

00:58:10.445 --> 00:58:11.907
content there that you can post anywhere

00:58:11.947 --> 00:58:12.188
else.

00:58:12.827 --> 00:58:13.728
And we know that

00:58:16.164 --> 00:58:18.684
Facebook and other social media platforms

00:58:18.724 --> 00:58:19.244
like Twitter,

00:58:19.284 --> 00:58:22.146
they didn't used to be so bad until

00:58:22.706 --> 00:58:24.568
Twitter really started making very

00:58:24.648 --> 00:58:26.429
algorithmic timelines instead of just

00:58:26.449 --> 00:58:27.748
showing, you know,

00:58:27.809 --> 00:58:29.550
posting chronological order from people

00:58:29.570 --> 00:58:30.231
that you follow.

00:58:30.431 --> 00:58:31.331
Or, I mean,

00:58:31.431 --> 00:58:34.251
I remember the days before Facebook had

00:58:34.351 --> 00:58:35.952
the news feed, for example,

00:58:36.552 --> 00:58:39.614
and they made that switch to kind of

00:58:40.554 --> 00:58:41.335
tell people

00:58:42.275 --> 00:58:43.496
um that like hey we're going to be

00:58:43.516 --> 00:58:45.318
showing you the most relevant stuff

00:58:45.398 --> 00:58:47.601
instead of uh just a way to keep

00:58:47.661 --> 00:58:49.262
up with your friends or whatever and there

00:58:49.282 --> 00:58:50.903
was some controversy there but facebook

00:58:50.923 --> 00:58:52.744
was really adamant that hey this is a

00:58:52.804 --> 00:58:55.286
very good thing whereas in reality we know

00:58:56.128 --> 00:58:58.050
that while they were designing this they

00:58:58.429 --> 00:58:59.971
were intentionally trying to make their

00:59:00.010 --> 00:59:03.313
platform more addictive and more um

00:59:04.818 --> 00:59:06.318
don't know reactionary i don't know the

00:59:06.338 --> 00:59:08.559
right word but it was a way to

00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:12.300
get people to stick around on facebook for

00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:18.402
longer and to uh more effectively sell ads

00:59:18.481 --> 00:59:20.282
right and i think that those motivations

00:59:20.302 --> 00:59:23.184
that these social media companies have is

00:59:23.224 --> 00:59:25.304
really at odds with how they sold these

00:59:25.344 --> 00:59:28.186
things to consumers and that is a

00:59:28.246 --> 00:59:28.905
legitimate

00:59:30.083 --> 00:59:32.324
problem in deceptive marketing.

00:59:33.563 --> 00:59:35.244
There is really no place, I think,

00:59:35.545 --> 00:59:38.626
in our society and from these companies to

00:59:38.666 --> 00:59:41.606
be deceptive,

00:59:43.568 --> 00:59:45.489
just completely deceptive to how they sell

00:59:45.509 --> 00:59:46.688
their products to consumers.

00:59:47.688 --> 00:59:51.251
And so some restrictions here do make

00:59:51.291 --> 00:59:51.650
sense.

00:59:53.172 --> 00:59:56.873
But I think that

00:59:59.101 --> 01:00:00.681
I think that the big problem is that

01:00:00.742 --> 01:00:04.443
courts and lawmakers do not really

01:00:05.083 --> 01:00:07.623
understand technology or the Internet.

01:00:08.184 --> 01:00:10.443
And lawmakers are consistently very

01:00:10.603 --> 01:00:14.644
unwilling to make a decision about this

01:00:15.164 --> 01:00:15.704
themselves.

01:00:15.744 --> 01:00:17.065
And it's only gotten worse lately.

01:00:17.425 --> 01:00:19.125
And now that the doors are open here

01:00:19.865 --> 01:00:20.465
to this issue,

01:00:20.525 --> 01:00:22.025
I think that the doors are open to

01:00:22.126 --> 01:00:24.987
wider issues that may impact content or

01:00:25.027 --> 01:00:26.527
Section two thirty and other courts,

01:00:26.786 --> 01:00:27.106
because

01:00:27.947 --> 01:00:29.648
All of these courts around the US are

01:00:29.668 --> 01:00:31.070
going to have slightly different

01:00:31.090 --> 01:00:31.891
interpretations.

01:00:31.931 --> 01:00:33.672
This isn't something that the Supreme

01:00:33.693 --> 01:00:34.574
Court decided on.

01:00:35.414 --> 01:00:36.356
And I think that that's really

01:00:36.396 --> 01:00:37.016
unfortunate.

01:00:37.516 --> 01:00:39.639
My main thought is that

01:00:41.907 --> 01:00:44.528
We should be focused on some of these

01:00:44.568 --> 01:00:46.929
very specific problems with how social

01:00:46.949 --> 01:00:48.710
media apps market themselves and how they

01:00:48.751 --> 01:00:51.072
design very addictive platforms,

01:00:51.112 --> 01:00:52.032
because it is a problem.

01:00:52.554 --> 01:00:55.454
But we need lawmakers to say, hey,

01:00:55.534 --> 01:00:57.496
we are only focusing on this specific

01:00:57.856 --> 01:00:58.297
thing, right?

01:00:58.336 --> 01:00:59.938
We're leaving all of the content and all

01:00:59.958 --> 01:01:01.298
of the Section two thirty and all the

01:01:01.318 --> 01:01:02.480
free speech stuff alone.

01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:05.242
We don't want courts to think about it.

01:01:05.402 --> 01:01:06.922
We want to have this law that just

01:01:07.103 --> 01:01:09.525
focuses on this one specific issue so that

01:01:09.565 --> 01:01:11.367
it doesn't expand into a ton of different

01:01:11.407 --> 01:01:11.726
issues,

01:01:12.268 --> 01:01:14.889
which is exactly the reason Section two

01:01:14.909 --> 01:01:17.152
thirty was created in the first place.

01:01:17.652 --> 01:01:19.293
We already have these protections under

01:01:19.313 --> 01:01:20.134
the First Amendment,

01:01:20.434 --> 01:01:22.496
but lawmakers had to step in because

01:01:22.536 --> 01:01:23.818
courts were interpreting.

01:01:24.605 --> 01:01:26.266
how the First Amendment applied to

01:01:26.306 --> 01:01:29.329
technology companies slightly differently

01:01:29.469 --> 01:01:31.351
or very differently,

01:01:31.391 --> 01:01:32.992
depending on like what court you were in.

01:01:33.012 --> 01:01:34.315
And lawmakers had to say, hey,

01:01:34.994 --> 01:01:38.458
this is how the First Amendment works for

01:01:38.478 --> 01:01:39.480
all of these tech companies.

01:01:39.619 --> 01:01:41.242
And now tech companies can use Section two

01:01:41.262 --> 01:01:43.003
thirty to easily get these cases

01:01:43.043 --> 01:01:43.503
dismissed.

01:01:43.903 --> 01:01:44.885
And I think that we need

01:01:46.065 --> 01:01:49.186
um another federal law like this that says

01:01:49.206 --> 01:01:51.266
like hey this specific design is bad but

01:01:51.306 --> 01:01:54.887
it doesn't mean that we have to regulate

01:01:55.047 --> 01:01:57.608
or ban free speech on these platforms

01:01:57.628 --> 01:02:00.630
because that is an unnecessary problem but

01:02:01.130 --> 01:02:04.130
it seems to be the the direction that

01:02:04.990 --> 01:02:06.791
some of some future cases could go in

01:02:06.811 --> 01:02:09.032
based on this um so I think

01:02:11.007 --> 01:02:12.550
I think it's kind of unfortunate just

01:02:12.570 --> 01:02:14.253
because I can see what direction this is

01:02:14.293 --> 01:02:15.657
going in and I don't think we live

01:02:15.697 --> 01:02:16.719
in an ideal

01:02:17.634 --> 01:02:19.016
world and i think this is more of

01:02:19.036 --> 01:02:22.559
a failure of lawmakers than the courts to

01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:25.521
be honest and i just wish we were

01:02:25.561 --> 01:02:29.025
more effective about making these laws

01:02:29.286 --> 01:02:32.588
that are more substantial and specific

01:02:32.708 --> 01:02:34.650
than than we currently are we're just

01:02:34.710 --> 01:02:36.373
leaving everything up to the courts it

01:02:36.413 --> 01:02:38.454
seems like these days and that is not

01:02:38.856 --> 01:02:40.777
an effective way to govern a country not

01:02:40.818 --> 01:02:41.038
at all

01:02:43.804 --> 01:02:46.726
Um, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

01:02:46.967 --> 01:02:48.507
I definitely see how this could be a

01:02:48.547 --> 01:02:49.188
slippery slope,

01:02:49.688 --> 01:02:50.929
but did you by any chance happen to

01:02:50.949 --> 01:02:53.311
see the last section of this NPR article

01:02:54.192 --> 01:02:55.793
that says the LA case focused on design

01:02:55.833 --> 01:02:57.293
of social media platforms to overcome

01:02:57.333 --> 01:02:58.034
liability shield?

01:02:59.755 --> 01:03:01.597
Uh, was there a specific point?

01:03:01.697 --> 01:03:02.057
Yeah.

01:03:02.117 --> 01:03:03.119
So they, they, um,

01:03:03.139 --> 01:03:05.280
they specifically mentioned how the,

01:03:05.621 --> 01:03:06.782
the prosecution,

01:03:06.842 --> 01:03:08.762
I believe it was stayed away from section

01:03:08.802 --> 01:03:09.302
two thirty.

01:03:09.643 --> 01:03:11.224
Um, they said that, uh,

01:03:12.625 --> 01:03:13.326
Where was it?

01:03:14.445 --> 01:03:14.726
Yes.

01:03:15.487 --> 01:03:16.407
By taking this approach,

01:03:16.427 --> 01:03:17.909
the lawyers pursued a case alleging

01:03:17.929 --> 01:03:19.289
defective design that was able to get

01:03:19.309 --> 01:03:21.070
around the high bar set by section two

01:03:21.090 --> 01:03:21.451
thirty.

01:03:21.952 --> 01:03:23.753
It's not what the users post,

01:03:23.813 --> 01:03:25.494
but the very architecture of the platform

01:03:25.534 --> 01:03:26.014
itself.

01:03:26.474 --> 01:03:27.815
So, I mean, again,

01:03:28.076 --> 01:03:29.918
I don't disagree with you because I I

01:03:29.958 --> 01:03:32.278
know there's probably there's a saying in

01:03:32.318 --> 01:03:33.599
the legal world that you can indict a

01:03:33.639 --> 01:03:34.221
ham sandwich.

01:03:35.300 --> 01:03:35.802
So, I mean,

01:03:36.422 --> 01:03:37.563
which I know an indictment is not the

01:03:37.583 --> 01:03:38.543
same as what we're talking about here.

01:03:38.583 --> 01:03:39.804
But the point being is like a good

01:03:39.824 --> 01:03:40.025
look.

01:03:41.326 --> 01:03:42.427
for better or worse,

01:03:42.586 --> 01:03:43.827
our legal system in the U S is

01:03:43.847 --> 01:03:45.307
basically who makes the better argument.

01:03:46.088 --> 01:03:49.309
And, um, so it's definitely could happen,

01:03:50.010 --> 01:03:50.731
but I think it's just a,

01:03:51.190 --> 01:03:53.771
maybe a little bit reassuring that they

01:03:53.851 --> 01:03:55.652
purposely stayed away from talking about

01:03:55.713 --> 01:03:57.253
section two thirty or even any of the

01:03:57.293 --> 01:03:58.114
content itself.

01:03:58.534 --> 01:04:00.014
And instead they focused on things like

01:04:00.114 --> 01:04:01.876
infinite scroll, constant notifications,

01:04:02.255 --> 01:04:04.097
auto playing videos and beauty filters.

01:04:04.496 --> 01:04:05.838
And they mentioned how, um,

01:04:06.717 --> 01:04:09.780
when she was young the the the plaintiff

01:04:10.282 --> 01:04:12.623
when she uh what was it she so

01:04:12.643 --> 01:04:14.284
craved the validation of social media that

01:04:14.304 --> 01:04:15.467
she would run off to the bathroom at

01:04:15.487 --> 01:04:16.807
school to check the number of likes her

01:04:16.847 --> 01:04:20.271
poster received um and where did it go

01:04:21.465 --> 01:04:22.724
There was another section where basically

01:04:22.744 --> 01:04:24.005
they talked about the beauty filters.

01:04:24.126 --> 01:04:24.525
Oh, here we go.

01:04:24.786 --> 01:04:25.927
She developed depression and body

01:04:25.967 --> 01:04:27.686
dysmorphia as she continuously compared

01:04:27.726 --> 01:04:29.447
herself to others and used beauty filters

01:04:29.467 --> 01:04:30.447
to enhance her appearance.

01:04:30.927 --> 01:04:33.369
And that's the thing that I think applies

01:04:33.389 --> 01:04:35.130
to everybody.

01:04:35.250 --> 01:04:37.190
If not the beauty filters or the physical

01:04:37.230 --> 01:04:39.931
thing, I will admit,

01:04:40.130 --> 01:04:43.231
I fall prey to this where somebody's like,

01:04:43.351 --> 01:04:44.452
oh, I'm going on vacation.

01:04:44.492 --> 01:04:45.172
We're going here.

01:04:45.213 --> 01:04:46.353
We're spending the weekend here.

01:04:47.813 --> 01:04:49.914
My sister has been to Europe more times

01:04:49.934 --> 01:04:50.554
than I can count.

01:04:51.215 --> 01:04:53.097
because we have different uh different

01:04:53.117 --> 01:04:54.739
dads i don't want to talk too much

01:04:54.759 --> 01:04:56.480
about privacy we have different dads and

01:04:56.579 --> 01:04:57.822
her dad has a lot more money and

01:04:57.862 --> 01:04:58.922
i don't know if she ever used that

01:04:58.963 --> 01:05:01.184
for the record maybe it's all maybe she's

01:05:01.204 --> 01:05:02.987
just really damn good with money but

01:05:03.067 --> 01:05:05.369
either way like she's traveled quite a lot

01:05:05.849 --> 01:05:07.510
and i really haven't and i i won't

01:05:07.530 --> 01:05:09.413
lie that i'm like jealous of that but

01:05:09.492 --> 01:05:11.414
also like being her brother i have the

01:05:11.474 --> 01:05:13.416
insight into like i know how hard she's

01:05:13.456 --> 01:05:14.978
worked i know that she's good with money

01:05:15.418 --> 01:05:17.181
It's not necessarily just that her dad

01:05:17.222 --> 01:05:18.123
wrote her a check, like, yeah,

01:05:18.182 --> 01:05:19.684
go to go to Germany or whatever.

01:05:19.744 --> 01:05:21.407
Like she probably earned all that money

01:05:21.447 --> 01:05:21.827
herself.

01:05:21.867 --> 01:05:23.028
It's not like she was there every other

01:05:23.068 --> 01:05:23.349
week.

01:05:23.829 --> 01:05:25.492
But when you don't know that person,

01:05:25.532 --> 01:05:26.733
when you're looking on social media and

01:05:26.753 --> 01:05:27.655
you're like, God,

01:05:27.695 --> 01:05:28.675
they're in Europe all the time.

01:05:28.916 --> 01:05:29.097
Yeah,

01:05:29.137 --> 01:05:30.858
maybe they're posting a picture from six

01:05:30.918 --> 01:05:31.338
months ago.

01:05:31.940 --> 01:05:33.159
And they've been back in the States this

01:05:33.179 --> 01:05:33.760
whole time.

01:05:34.201 --> 01:05:35.181
And you don't know that because you don't

01:05:35.201 --> 01:05:36.360
know them or you don't know how many

01:05:36.481 --> 01:05:38.440
overtime shifts they worked or overnight

01:05:38.481 --> 01:05:38.780
shifts.

01:05:39.181 --> 01:05:40.442
Like you don't know how many times their

01:05:40.461 --> 01:05:41.121
friends were like, hey,

01:05:41.141 --> 01:05:41.822
let's go get drinks.

01:05:41.862 --> 01:05:42.981
They're like, oh, no, thanks.

01:05:43.001 --> 01:05:44.202
I'll catch the next one because I'm trying

01:05:44.222 --> 01:05:44.702
to save money.

01:05:44.762 --> 01:05:45.663
Like, you know,

01:05:45.762 --> 01:05:48.202
and it's what's the statement about like

01:05:48.222 --> 01:05:49.664
you're seeing somebody's highlight reel.

01:05:50.344 --> 01:05:51.784
And anyway, I mean,

01:05:51.903 --> 01:05:52.925
I guess that's more about content.

01:05:52.945 --> 01:05:54.105
But my point being like we can all

01:05:54.144 --> 01:05:55.005
relate to the fact that

01:05:55.945 --> 01:05:57.525
social media gives us this warped

01:05:57.626 --> 01:05:59.266
interpretation of what's going on in other

01:05:59.306 --> 01:06:01.447
people's lives that if you don't know them

01:06:01.487 --> 01:06:03.088
personally and you can't ask them like man

01:06:03.128 --> 01:06:04.309
how are you affording all these trips

01:06:04.329 --> 01:06:06.809
they're like oh you know my dad's really

01:06:06.829 --> 01:06:08.409
good with credit card points or something

01:06:08.630 --> 01:06:10.190
um i forget who it was but one

01:06:10.210 --> 01:06:11.391
of the podcasts i listened to said the

01:06:11.411 --> 01:06:13.072
same thing they're they're i think they're

01:06:13.092 --> 01:06:14.492
even a personal finance podcast they're

01:06:14.512 --> 01:06:15.952
like yeah we don't make that much money

01:06:16.293 --> 01:06:17.673
but my wife is really good with the

01:06:17.693 --> 01:06:19.155
travel points or else we would never

01:06:19.195 --> 01:06:21.396
travel this much so it's um

01:06:22.315 --> 01:06:22.556
Yeah,

01:06:22.675 --> 01:06:24.677
it's anyways getting back to the topic.

01:06:24.717 --> 01:06:25.818
Sorry, I kind of got distracted there.

01:06:26.318 --> 01:06:28.898
It's I think it is heartening that they

01:06:28.978 --> 01:06:31.480
purposely avoided the content and the,

01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:32.681
you know, people are posting this.

01:06:33.072 --> 01:06:34.152
And it's the beauty filters.

01:06:34.192 --> 01:06:35.172
It's the infinite scroll.

01:06:35.213 --> 01:06:36.932
It's the architecture of the platform

01:06:36.972 --> 01:06:37.393
itself,

01:06:37.994 --> 01:06:40.313
which I think is absolutely a huge part

01:06:40.333 --> 01:06:41.394
of the problem personally,

01:06:41.574 --> 01:06:43.054
but maybe not the whole problem,

01:06:43.074 --> 01:06:44.036
but definitely a big part of it.

01:06:44.115 --> 01:06:45.416
So yeah,

01:06:45.536 --> 01:06:46.817
not to say that it couldn't happen because

01:06:46.836 --> 01:06:48.077
I could totally see a world where this

01:06:48.117 --> 01:06:49.117
does open some doors,

01:06:49.157 --> 01:06:51.057
but hopefully that will at least make it

01:06:51.077 --> 01:06:52.778
a little bit harder since that's not the

01:06:52.818 --> 01:06:53.798
direct argument they took.

01:06:54.355 --> 01:06:55.655
Yeah, I totally agree.

01:06:55.876 --> 01:06:58.536
I think that them sidestepping the whole

01:06:58.577 --> 01:07:01.518
content issue entirely was the correct

01:07:01.559 --> 01:07:01.858
approach,

01:07:01.878 --> 01:07:03.739
and I think that that is the main

01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:05.481
issue with these social media platforms.

01:07:07.222 --> 01:07:09.302
The challenge that I see here is that

01:07:09.402 --> 01:07:12.945
I think the line between the content on

01:07:12.985 --> 01:07:15.146
this platform and the algorithm serving

01:07:15.186 --> 01:07:16.367
that content is...

01:07:19.108 --> 01:07:21.050
it's not it's it's a fine line it's

01:07:21.090 --> 01:07:24.793
not very clearly defined and i think what

01:07:24.853 --> 01:07:27.996
we could see is future court cases um

01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:31.601
exactly like i said um not necessarily

01:07:31.641 --> 01:07:34.184
focused on the content but focused on the

01:07:34.224 --> 01:07:35.585
content that these algorithms are

01:07:35.605 --> 01:07:37.586
promoting um for like these

01:07:38.367 --> 01:07:40.028
conservative or religious groups to say

01:07:40.068 --> 01:07:40.469
like, hey,

01:07:40.789 --> 01:07:44.811
it's the algorithm that turned my child

01:07:44.851 --> 01:07:48.432
gay because it surfaced all of this

01:07:48.472 --> 01:07:52.775
content related to that or whatever.

01:07:53.255 --> 01:07:54.896
And I think that we could see...

01:07:58.038 --> 01:08:00.438
a response to that from social media

01:08:00.478 --> 01:08:02.719
companies that would be very similar to

01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:06.561
the response that we would probably see if

01:08:06.621 --> 01:08:08.001
Section two thirty was repealed.

01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:10.581
I think that they could interpret that

01:08:11.282 --> 01:08:12.523
like like if that's the case in the

01:08:12.543 --> 01:08:12.922
future.

01:08:13.282 --> 01:08:15.903
And there are already some cases where

01:08:15.923 --> 01:08:17.623
this exact argument is being made.

01:08:17.663 --> 01:08:19.265
I think and I think in other countries,

01:08:19.284 --> 01:08:20.685
I'm not aware of cases in the US

01:08:20.704 --> 01:08:21.005
right now,

01:08:21.085 --> 01:08:22.886
but we've seen this before and we know

01:08:22.905 --> 01:08:25.747
it could happen where

01:08:27.688 --> 01:08:30.088
Like if Facebook gets sued for that issue

01:08:30.149 --> 01:08:31.409
and they lose that case,

01:08:31.470 --> 01:08:35.692
I can see them potentially censoring or

01:08:35.811 --> 01:08:40.734
moderating much more heavily like LGBTQ

01:08:41.114 --> 01:08:44.037
information or education or not even that.

01:08:44.056 --> 01:08:45.778
It could be any topics that...

01:08:47.541 --> 01:08:50.063
certain groups find undesirable or they'd

01:08:50.103 --> 01:08:50.943
rather ignore.

01:08:51.703 --> 01:08:54.845
And I think that that could lead to

01:08:55.546 --> 01:08:58.148
a free speech issue on these platforms if

01:08:58.207 --> 01:09:00.069
the algorithm can be targeted like that.

01:09:02.256 --> 01:09:06.399
even if Section two thirty remains just

01:09:06.439 --> 01:09:07.680
for liability reasons.

01:09:08.380 --> 01:09:10.421
So this is the main reason that I

01:09:10.442 --> 01:09:13.423
would love to see a law that really

01:09:13.484 --> 01:09:19.747
restricts app design and a lot of that

01:09:19.768 --> 01:09:19.948
stuff,

01:09:19.967 --> 01:09:22.609
because I think that that or like the

01:09:22.869 --> 01:09:24.751
beauty features that filters that you

01:09:24.791 --> 01:09:25.811
mentioned, for example,

01:09:25.971 --> 01:09:28.394
or some other aspects of these apps do

01:09:28.434 --> 01:09:29.614
need to be reined back in.

01:09:30.074 --> 01:09:30.654
And I think

01:09:31.796 --> 01:09:34.457
um just how heavily these apps are

01:09:34.516 --> 01:09:36.877
marketed to kids in the first place i

01:09:36.997 --> 01:09:39.538
think that needs to be reined in as

01:09:39.618 --> 01:09:43.801
well um but it would be nice to

01:09:43.820 --> 01:09:47.702
have a law that delineates that from even

01:09:47.742 --> 01:09:49.302
from the algorithm which which is

01:09:49.342 --> 01:09:51.304
problematic but um

01:09:53.507 --> 01:09:55.189
I would be worried about it being impacted

01:09:55.208 --> 01:09:57.930
in future cases because I do think even

01:09:57.970 --> 01:10:01.171
if it doesn't mandate censorship or

01:10:01.230 --> 01:10:01.871
moderation,

01:10:01.930 --> 01:10:03.671
I think that censorship and moderation

01:10:03.711 --> 01:10:08.273
could be a likely outcome if these

01:10:08.792 --> 01:10:11.814
platforms become liable for the content

01:10:11.854 --> 01:10:14.454
that they display with those algorithms,

01:10:14.534 --> 01:10:16.515
basically.

01:10:16.534 --> 01:10:17.095
That makes sense.

01:10:17.256 --> 01:10:17.636
I hear you.

01:10:19.411 --> 01:10:20.211
Yeah, I don't have an answer to that.

01:10:20.230 --> 01:10:21.931
Hopefully that does not happen.

01:10:23.231 --> 01:10:23.591
So yeah,

01:10:23.671 --> 01:10:24.872
it's something to keep an eye on.

01:10:27.672 --> 01:10:28.073
I don't know.

01:10:28.292 --> 01:10:30.673
I'm never very optimistic about the things

01:10:30.694 --> 01:10:32.033
that our government is doing,

01:10:32.554 --> 01:10:34.935
but you can always hope for the best.

01:10:36.515 --> 01:10:37.255
But yeah,

01:10:37.435 --> 01:10:40.836
I've definitely seen a lot of people very

01:10:40.855 --> 01:10:41.936
concerned about this case,

01:10:42.016 --> 01:10:43.976
even if they agree with some of the

01:10:44.016 --> 01:10:46.578
issues that are being addressed here,

01:10:46.618 --> 01:10:47.137
because...

01:10:50.338 --> 01:10:51.622
there are concerns with how this will

01:10:51.662 --> 01:10:55.577
affect future cases.

01:10:55.636 --> 01:10:55.938
Totally.

01:10:59.734 --> 01:11:00.515
I think that's kind of it,

01:11:00.555 --> 01:11:02.176
if you don't have anything else to add.

01:11:03.655 --> 01:11:04.176
In a minute,

01:11:04.315 --> 01:11:07.938
we'll start taking viewer questions.

01:11:07.957 --> 01:11:09.938
So if you have questions or if you've

01:11:09.997 --> 01:11:11.538
been holding on to any questions about the

01:11:11.559 --> 01:11:12.859
stories we've talked about so far,

01:11:12.899 --> 01:11:15.800
you can leave them in the forum thread

01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:16.800
for this show,

01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:20.041
or you can leave it in the chat

01:11:20.060 --> 01:11:20.301
here.

01:11:20.320 --> 01:11:24.582
We'll try to get through all of them.

01:11:24.622 --> 01:11:25.042
For now,

01:11:25.082 --> 01:11:26.823
I think we should check in on our

01:11:27.264 --> 01:11:27.984
community forum.

01:11:28.423 --> 01:11:30.104
There's always a lot of activity on our

01:11:30.125 --> 01:11:30.905
forum every week.

01:11:30.926 --> 01:11:32.466
We can't talk about it all,

01:11:32.546 --> 01:11:35.770
but we wanted to highlight a couple of

01:11:35.869 --> 01:11:38.752
this week's most interesting discussions,

01:11:38.792 --> 01:11:40.654
in our opinion, that are happening there.

01:11:42.034 --> 01:11:44.037
Our first forum thread that I wanted to

01:11:44.157 --> 01:11:46.359
take a look at was called Remembering

01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:47.939
Device and Master Passwords.

01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.403
This was a question that was asked to

01:11:51.984 --> 01:11:55.265
the community talking about

01:11:56.146 --> 01:11:58.728
password managers and replacing all of

01:11:58.768 --> 01:12:00.408
their reused passwords with randomly

01:12:00.448 --> 01:12:02.010
generated passwords that are stored in the

01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:02.829
password manager.

01:12:04.270 --> 01:12:06.152
But there are some passwords that the

01:12:06.192 --> 01:12:09.193
password manager can't remember for them

01:12:09.252 --> 01:12:11.073
because they need them

01:12:11.554 --> 01:12:12.755
like the master password,

01:12:12.795 --> 01:12:14.657
to access the password manager in the

01:12:14.697 --> 01:12:16.479
first place, which is, of course,

01:12:16.538 --> 01:12:16.979
a problem.

01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.242
So they mentioned some examples,

01:12:20.302 --> 01:12:21.444
the master password,

01:12:21.604 --> 01:12:23.706
the user account password for each of

01:12:23.746 --> 01:12:24.606
their devices,

01:12:24.686 --> 01:12:26.307
the disk encryption password for each of

01:12:26.328 --> 01:12:27.048
their devices.

01:12:27.529 --> 01:12:30.391
And then if they had five different

01:12:30.412 --> 01:12:31.792
devices, they would have eleven...

01:12:32.734 --> 01:12:34.256
six word passphrases to remember,

01:12:34.296 --> 01:12:36.078
which is a challenge.

01:12:37.759 --> 01:12:40.841
So they asked basically what strategies we

01:12:40.881 --> 01:12:42.743
have for remembering so many passwords,

01:12:43.024 --> 01:12:46.228
or what password should you reuse in those

01:12:46.268 --> 01:12:46.849
situations?

01:12:48.649 --> 01:12:49.470
So Nate,

01:12:49.570 --> 01:12:51.292
I know you had some things to talk

01:12:51.313 --> 01:12:53.154
about and you saw Fria's answer there.

01:12:53.175 --> 01:12:54.496
Do you want to kind of cover what

01:12:54.636 --> 01:12:55.997
Fria talked about here?

01:12:57.782 --> 01:12:58.061
Yeah,

01:12:58.082 --> 01:13:01.404
because I really appreciated Fria's

01:13:01.444 --> 01:13:01.984
response.

01:13:03.123 --> 01:13:04.505
So for example,

01:13:05.364 --> 01:13:07.645
one of the questions that the original

01:13:07.685 --> 01:13:09.046
question asker said,

01:13:09.106 --> 01:13:10.728
is it safe to reuse the same password

01:13:10.747 --> 01:13:12.488
for disk encryption and user account?

01:13:13.109 --> 01:13:13.729
And Fria said,

01:13:13.748 --> 01:13:14.828
it's probably best to make those

01:13:14.868 --> 01:13:15.229
different.

01:13:15.770 --> 01:13:16.430
But ideally,

01:13:16.470 --> 01:13:18.070
your online account would use a passkey or

01:13:18.110 --> 01:13:19.591
something like that instead of a password.

01:13:21.889 --> 01:13:24.029
And they also noted that your device

01:13:24.069 --> 01:13:26.530
passwords don't leave your device.

01:13:27.270 --> 01:13:28.752
So, for example,

01:13:28.832 --> 01:13:31.252
my computer in front of me here... Well,

01:13:31.273 --> 01:13:31.733
this is a Mac,

01:13:31.752 --> 01:13:32.592
so this is a good example.

01:13:32.613 --> 01:13:33.673
But my Windows computer, you know,

01:13:33.814 --> 01:13:35.734
I have a VeriCrypt and I have the

01:13:35.774 --> 01:13:36.935
login to my local account,

01:13:37.295 --> 01:13:38.676
which is not a Microsoft account.

01:13:38.695 --> 01:13:39.716
It's a local-only account.

01:13:40.136 --> 01:13:41.037
So, in theory,

01:13:41.157 --> 01:13:42.457
I can make both of those the same

01:13:42.497 --> 01:13:43.198
password, right?

01:13:43.238 --> 01:13:45.939
Because they're not going to leave the

01:13:45.958 --> 01:13:46.378
device.

01:13:47.019 --> 01:13:48.739
And they also mentioned that you can...

01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:52.862
You can go ahead and enable biometrics.

01:13:54.162 --> 01:13:54.963
I guess I should have said this to

01:13:54.984 --> 01:13:55.323
start with.

01:13:55.764 --> 01:13:56.966
It really depends a lot on your threat

01:13:57.006 --> 01:13:57.506
model, right?

01:13:58.266 --> 01:14:01.409
Because my threat model, for now,

01:14:02.591 --> 01:14:05.394
is basically getting robbed.

01:14:05.713 --> 01:14:08.076
Laptop, laptop, laptop, laptop.

01:14:08.856 --> 01:14:10.198
several phones laying around.

01:14:10.797 --> 01:14:12.659
Like my concern is not really the

01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:13.060
government.

01:14:13.801 --> 01:14:15.181
I personally am a strong believer in a

01:14:15.221 --> 01:14:16.542
five dollar wrench attack and I do not

01:14:16.582 --> 01:14:17.842
have a high pain tolerance.

01:14:17.882 --> 01:14:19.123
So, you know,

01:14:19.144 --> 01:14:20.324
the minute they threaten me with violence,

01:14:20.345 --> 01:14:21.445
I'm going to fold like a souffle.

01:14:21.985 --> 01:14:22.667
I'm just being honest.

01:14:23.346 --> 01:14:24.768
But, you know,

01:14:24.828 --> 01:14:26.408
if somebody comes in and breaks into my

01:14:26.470 --> 01:14:28.110
house while my wife and I are out

01:14:28.270 --> 01:14:30.072
and they steal all the laptops,

01:14:30.591 --> 01:14:31.493
I want to make sure that they're not

01:14:31.512 --> 01:14:32.554
going to be able to get into that

01:14:32.613 --> 01:14:33.675
because that's when they're going to be

01:14:33.694 --> 01:14:35.956
able to get into my password manager.

01:14:36.136 --> 01:14:37.337
And I don't keep browser history,

01:14:37.377 --> 01:14:38.478
but browser history and

01:14:38.944 --> 01:14:40.787
any apps I have saved, any like,

01:14:41.087 --> 01:14:41.989
like I use Thunderbird.

01:14:42.010 --> 01:14:43.853
So all my emails are downloaded locally,

01:14:44.314 --> 01:14:44.934
things like that.

01:14:45.034 --> 01:14:46.237
And that's what I really want to protect

01:14:46.256 --> 01:14:46.497
against.

01:14:46.537 --> 01:14:49.881
So in that situation, yeah,

01:14:49.942 --> 01:14:51.904
really just having one really strong

01:14:51.944 --> 01:14:52.426
password

01:14:53.376 --> 01:14:55.137
is probably sufficient because they're not

01:14:55.158 --> 01:14:56.219
going to crack that as long as I

01:14:56.238 --> 01:14:57.180
don't write it down and stick it on

01:14:57.199 --> 01:14:57.801
the desk anywhere.

01:14:57.881 --> 01:14:58.121
Right.

01:14:58.841 --> 01:14:59.323
Um, you know,

01:14:59.342 --> 01:15:00.824
like one randomly generated six word

01:15:00.864 --> 01:15:01.404
passphrase.

01:15:01.765 --> 01:15:02.726
If I really want to be safe,

01:15:02.827 --> 01:15:04.047
I could give each device a different

01:15:04.087 --> 01:15:04.569
passphrase.

01:15:04.609 --> 01:15:07.351
So that way it's not, um, you know,

01:15:07.372 --> 01:15:07.993
if they get one,

01:15:08.033 --> 01:15:08.993
at least they don't get into all of

01:15:09.014 --> 01:15:10.636
them, but at least that way, you know,

01:15:10.655 --> 01:15:11.796
it's not, uh,

01:15:12.247 --> 01:15:12.966
What's the word I'm looking for?

01:15:13.068 --> 01:15:14.849
Like that's only three different passwords

01:15:14.889 --> 01:15:16.250
instead of six, right?

01:15:16.430 --> 01:15:17.210
Or something like that.

01:15:17.289 --> 01:15:19.811
So it really does depend on your threat

01:15:19.832 --> 01:15:20.072
model.

01:15:20.112 --> 01:15:21.632
But going back to the biometrics thing,

01:15:21.693 --> 01:15:22.654
what a lot of people have,

01:15:22.774 --> 01:15:24.454
I've seen several people notice this where

01:15:25.636 --> 01:15:27.537
they've been in a public situation and for

01:15:27.556 --> 01:15:27.997
whatever reason,

01:15:28.016 --> 01:15:29.097
they have to pull out their phone and

01:15:29.238 --> 01:15:29.918
unlock their phone.

01:15:30.458 --> 01:15:32.199
And they realize as they're typing it in,

01:15:32.220 --> 01:15:32.661
they're like, dude,

01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:33.881
there's a camera right over the cash

01:15:33.900 --> 01:15:35.362
register looking at me type my password

01:15:35.381 --> 01:15:35.943
into the phone.

01:15:36.042 --> 01:15:36.243
Hmm.

01:15:36.462 --> 01:15:37.104
And they're like, man,

01:15:37.144 --> 01:15:38.064
I kind of wish I had just used

01:15:38.083 --> 01:15:40.185
biometrics because at least then they

01:15:40.206 --> 01:15:41.185
wouldn't have my password, right?

01:15:41.225 --> 01:15:41.506
Or, you know,

01:15:41.525 --> 01:15:42.987
we've covered stories in the past about

01:15:44.268 --> 01:15:45.649
there's a scam that I think is still

01:15:45.668 --> 01:15:49.332
going around where somebody will basically

01:15:49.391 --> 01:15:50.792
watch you unlock your password for

01:15:50.813 --> 01:15:51.353
whatever reason.

01:15:51.372 --> 01:15:51.552
You know,

01:15:51.573 --> 01:15:52.673
maybe they're flirting with you at a bar

01:15:52.713 --> 01:15:54.454
or something and they see you type in

01:15:54.475 --> 01:15:56.716
your passcode and then them or their

01:15:56.737 --> 01:15:58.097
accomplice will steal your phone,

01:15:58.158 --> 01:15:59.377
try to unlock it and send a lot

01:15:59.398 --> 01:15:59.779
of money.

01:16:00.378 --> 01:16:01.899
And I know Apple and Google have rolled

01:16:01.939 --> 01:16:03.041
out some defenses against that,

01:16:03.320 --> 01:16:04.442
but that's a good example where if you

01:16:04.561 --> 01:16:05.682
unlock it with biometrics,

01:16:06.323 --> 01:16:07.203
They're going to have a harder time

01:16:07.222 --> 01:16:08.344
unlocking the phone when they steal it

01:16:08.384 --> 01:16:08.743
from you.

01:16:08.904 --> 01:16:13.405
So it's really about what are you trying

01:16:13.426 --> 01:16:14.426
to protect and who are you trying to

01:16:14.447 --> 01:16:15.027
protect it from.

01:16:16.047 --> 01:16:17.148
If you have a very high threat model,

01:16:17.167 --> 01:16:17.427
then yeah,

01:16:17.448 --> 01:16:18.809
you probably want a bunch of different

01:16:18.828 --> 01:16:19.469
passphrases.

01:16:20.489 --> 01:16:21.871
I think it's also worth noting that it

01:16:21.930 --> 01:16:22.110
is

01:16:23.362 --> 01:16:24.502
I know this is really unpopular,

01:16:24.521 --> 01:16:26.082
but it is okay to write down passwords

01:16:26.203 --> 01:16:28.444
in some situations.

01:16:28.484 --> 01:16:30.104
For example, do not call it password.

01:16:30.144 --> 01:16:31.145
Do not stick it on a sticky note

01:16:31.385 --> 01:16:32.685
on your screen.

01:16:32.765 --> 01:16:34.786
But if you have a little notebook that

01:16:34.826 --> 01:16:37.127
you carry with you everywhere or something

01:16:37.146 --> 01:16:37.606
like that.

01:16:38.247 --> 01:16:42.328
So I think my thing, I'll be honest,

01:16:42.467 --> 01:16:44.208
I basically have two main passwords I use,

01:16:44.328 --> 01:16:45.510
one for the encryption and one for the

01:16:45.550 --> 01:16:46.109
local account.

01:16:46.890 --> 01:16:47.710
I don't know why I do it that

01:16:47.729 --> 01:16:47.850
way.

01:16:47.890 --> 01:16:48.350
I just do.

01:16:48.449 --> 01:16:49.230
Because now that I think about it,

01:16:49.251 --> 01:16:50.310
if they get past the encryption,

01:16:50.770 --> 01:16:51.992
they can just pop out the disk, right?

01:16:53.324 --> 01:16:53.984
Yeah, I don't know.

01:16:54.104 --> 01:16:57.707
But I think that's the big thing is

01:16:57.828 --> 01:16:58.328
the threat model.

01:16:58.347 --> 01:16:59.689
If your threat model is not very high,

01:16:59.788 --> 01:17:01.729
it's probably safe to reuse the local

01:17:01.770 --> 01:17:03.350
passwords that don't leave your device.

01:17:04.591 --> 01:17:05.912
Just be aware that that is a risk.

01:17:05.953 --> 01:17:06.632
If somebody gets it,

01:17:07.153 --> 01:17:08.234
they can get into all the devices,

01:17:08.293 --> 01:17:08.613
I guess.

01:17:08.833 --> 01:17:10.715
So I don't know if Jonah has a

01:17:10.775 --> 01:17:12.817
different strategy that he would approach

01:17:12.856 --> 01:17:13.077
it with.

01:17:13.832 --> 01:17:15.113
No, that makes a lot of sense.

01:17:15.213 --> 01:17:15.474
I mean,

01:17:16.434 --> 01:17:18.194
the main thought that I would have is

01:17:18.234 --> 01:17:19.375
I think for most people,

01:17:20.956 --> 01:17:25.518
the information that you store on your

01:17:25.557 --> 01:17:26.518
different devices,

01:17:26.597 --> 01:17:28.078
if you have multiple devices,

01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:29.920
is usually pretty much the same

01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:30.479
information.

01:17:30.833 --> 01:17:31.975
you're going to probably install your

01:17:31.994 --> 01:17:34.077
password manager on all of them and the

01:17:34.117 --> 01:17:35.618
same web browser that you have synced

01:17:35.658 --> 01:17:36.198
across them.

01:17:36.538 --> 01:17:38.461
And people have a desktop and a laptop

01:17:38.480 --> 01:17:41.663
and a phone for convenience purposes

01:17:41.703 --> 01:17:43.145
rather than just separating all of their

01:17:43.185 --> 01:17:43.485
data.

01:17:43.905 --> 01:17:46.068
And so I think using the same password

01:17:46.127 --> 01:17:49.091
for encryption

01:17:51.153 --> 01:17:52.875
And using the same password for your local

01:17:52.895 --> 01:17:54.938
account probably makes sense in those

01:17:54.957 --> 01:17:55.759
situations.

01:17:58.101 --> 01:17:58.943
At the end of the day,

01:17:59.703 --> 01:18:03.608
those passwords aren't exposed to the

01:18:03.648 --> 01:18:03.988
internet.

01:18:04.007 --> 01:18:06.030
You don't have everyone on earth trying to

01:18:06.091 --> 01:18:07.632
hack you in the same way that...

01:18:08.934 --> 01:18:10.675
you have like thousands of hackers trying

01:18:10.694 --> 01:18:12.475
to attack your online accounts all of the

01:18:12.515 --> 01:18:14.636
time because because they can and it's so

01:18:14.716 --> 01:18:16.216
easy to attack like all of this local

01:18:16.256 --> 01:18:19.319
stuff it does it's not as much of

01:18:19.359 --> 01:18:21.239
a deal and i think memorizing one password

01:18:21.260 --> 01:18:24.081
for all that is good um you definitely

01:18:24.121 --> 01:18:26.162
do want to have a different password for

01:18:26.181 --> 01:18:29.162
your local account versus your encryption

01:18:29.203 --> 01:18:30.283
password just because

01:18:31.144 --> 01:18:32.786
you don't want to be entering your

01:18:33.087 --> 01:18:34.788
encryption password all the time in case

01:18:34.828 --> 01:18:36.211
of like shoulder surfing attacks.

01:18:36.230 --> 01:18:38.894
So keeping that separate is nice.

01:18:39.074 --> 01:18:40.475
And I wish that's a feature that could

01:18:40.515 --> 01:18:43.119
be used on more smartphones,

01:18:43.159 --> 01:18:44.060
but I digress.

01:18:46.064 --> 01:18:46.925
But other than that,

01:18:48.182 --> 01:18:48.842
Yeah,

01:18:48.903 --> 01:18:50.123
there's a lot of good advice in this

01:18:50.184 --> 01:18:50.583
thread,

01:18:51.944 --> 01:18:53.345
and I think it really does depend on

01:18:53.364 --> 01:18:53.864
your setup,

01:18:53.885 --> 01:18:55.445
but usually I think that works.

01:18:55.626 --> 01:18:58.067
If you do have very different information

01:18:58.106 --> 01:18:58.707
on your devices,

01:18:58.766 --> 01:19:00.408
it might make more sense to not reuse

01:19:00.427 --> 01:19:01.087
those passwords,

01:19:01.188 --> 01:19:01.347
but

01:19:02.787 --> 01:19:04.247
I would also say if you're just trying

01:19:04.287 --> 01:19:05.769
to remember these passwords,

01:19:06.389 --> 01:19:08.029
even if you do use biometrics,

01:19:09.449 --> 01:19:13.270
usually you could try disabling them for a

01:19:13.371 --> 01:19:14.930
month or a couple months because I think

01:19:14.990 --> 01:19:16.811
muscle memory is usually the way to

01:19:17.351 --> 01:19:18.652
memorize these passwords quickly.

01:19:19.032 --> 01:19:21.752
I remember back when I was in...

01:19:22.853 --> 01:19:25.595
college I would always have to log into

01:19:25.635 --> 01:19:28.818
different computers like in the computer

01:19:28.858 --> 01:19:30.899
lab we didn't have laptops or anything we

01:19:30.918 --> 01:19:32.980
just had these these desktops and I'd have

01:19:33.001 --> 01:19:35.703
to use my account that I would normally

01:19:35.882 --> 01:19:39.145
use a password manager for like um like

01:19:39.166 --> 01:19:40.907
to access my email but the password was

01:19:40.947 --> 01:19:42.588
the same to log in locally to these

01:19:42.628 --> 01:19:45.190
computers and I didn't want to have to

01:19:45.211 --> 01:19:47.131
like grab my phone or something to copy

01:19:47.171 --> 01:19:48.393
my password over I just had to have

01:19:48.412 --> 01:19:49.373
a passphrase that I could

01:19:50.532 --> 01:19:52.894
Memorize to log in and it only took

01:19:52.934 --> 01:19:54.835
like a month or maybe a month and

01:19:54.854 --> 01:19:57.957
a half to eventually like have the pretty

01:19:58.018 --> 01:20:00.720
long passphrase down I think if you just

01:20:00.760 --> 01:20:04.703
do it all the time it's you'll probably

01:20:04.722 --> 01:20:07.864
get it so yeah lots of good advice,

01:20:07.904 --> 01:20:10.046
but I think typically.

01:20:11.493 --> 01:20:13.594
There's only three main passwords that

01:20:13.634 --> 01:20:15.154
most people have to remember,

01:20:15.175 --> 01:20:18.256
which is for their local accounts or pins

01:20:18.497 --> 01:20:20.317
or their encryption key and then their

01:20:22.599 --> 01:20:24.078
password manager, master password.

01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.199
I think that you should keep them all

01:20:26.260 --> 01:20:26.701
separate,

01:20:27.081 --> 01:20:28.761
but you probably don't need more than that

01:20:28.862 --> 01:20:31.363
unless you have a good reason that you

01:20:31.403 --> 01:20:33.243
know of to have more passwords than that.

01:20:33.423 --> 01:20:37.046
So, yeah.

01:20:37.105 --> 01:20:37.185
Oops.

01:20:37.601 --> 01:20:38.362
There we go.

01:20:38.402 --> 01:20:38.561
Yeah.

01:20:38.622 --> 01:20:39.782
Last thing I want to add just to

01:20:39.862 --> 01:20:41.323
double what she said is if this is

01:20:41.363 --> 01:20:42.182
something you're struggling with,

01:20:42.243 --> 01:20:43.382
definitely check out this thread.

01:20:43.422 --> 01:20:45.042
Cause a lot of people gave really good

01:20:45.104 --> 01:20:46.323
ideas from like different,

01:20:47.564 --> 01:20:48.583
I wouldn't say different threat models,

01:20:48.604 --> 01:20:49.724
but just different perspectives.

01:20:49.783 --> 01:20:50.965
Like don't forget, you know,

01:20:51.024 --> 01:20:52.484
hardware tokens and don't forget this.

01:20:52.524 --> 01:20:54.225
And if this is your threat model than

01:20:54.265 --> 01:20:55.546
this, and it was, it's a really,

01:20:55.586 --> 01:20:56.626
really good thread for sure.

01:20:56.666 --> 01:20:57.525
So there's a lot of different,

01:20:57.865 --> 01:20:59.065
we're kind of just given like a rough,

01:20:59.166 --> 01:20:59.605
you know, what,

01:20:59.826 --> 01:21:01.226
what would probably work for most people,

01:21:01.306 --> 01:21:03.567
but people gave a really thoughtful

01:21:03.667 --> 01:21:04.766
answers about, you know,

01:21:04.907 --> 01:21:05.828
keep this in mind.

01:21:05.868 --> 01:21:07.207
And if your threat model includes this,

01:21:07.287 --> 01:21:07.408
so.

01:21:07.948 --> 01:21:12.115
Really good thread for sure.

01:21:12.195 --> 01:21:12.777
And then,

01:21:13.859 --> 01:21:15.081
if that's all we had on that one,

01:21:15.100 --> 01:21:18.065
there was one other thread that I thought

01:21:18.086 --> 01:21:20.048
was interesting that I wanted to talk

01:21:20.069 --> 01:21:21.150
about a little bit because I've been...

01:21:22.894 --> 01:21:24.877
My router started giving me issues right

01:21:24.896 --> 01:21:25.757
before we went to Austin,

01:21:25.778 --> 01:21:27.640
and I just got it fixed this week,

01:21:27.659 --> 01:21:28.039
finally.

01:21:29.903 --> 01:21:33.086
And this forum post asks about apartment

01:21:33.166 --> 01:21:34.467
Wi-Fi privacy.

01:21:35.189 --> 01:21:36.670
And so they were specifically talking

01:21:36.710 --> 01:21:37.211
about the...

01:21:38.131 --> 01:21:40.672
the router issued by their ISP.

01:21:40.712 --> 01:21:42.453
They said they moved into a new apartment

01:21:42.474 --> 01:21:45.435
complex and there's fiber pre-installed

01:21:45.475 --> 01:21:46.215
from a provider.

01:21:46.695 --> 01:21:48.775
The complex states that that provider is

01:21:48.815 --> 01:21:49.976
the preferred provider and they have a

01:21:50.037 --> 01:21:50.617
partnership.

01:21:51.136 --> 01:21:52.078
And then after moving,

01:21:52.118 --> 01:21:53.877
I was contacted by representative to begin

01:21:53.898 --> 01:21:55.078
the internet setup process.

01:21:55.833 --> 01:21:57.835
And so they were basically wondering,

01:21:57.875 --> 01:22:00.157
can the apartment complex get any insight

01:22:00.277 --> 01:22:03.358
into what I'm doing on my Wi-Fi and

01:22:03.398 --> 01:22:05.579
what would be the best way to get

01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:06.399
more privacy?

01:22:06.840 --> 01:22:07.360
They mentioned,

01:22:07.381 --> 01:22:08.440
should I get a different provider

01:22:08.461 --> 01:22:09.742
altogether or something like that?

01:22:11.462 --> 01:22:13.884
So as a longtime apartment dweller,

01:22:15.505 --> 01:22:16.145
for most of my life,

01:22:16.185 --> 01:22:17.065
I've lived in apartments.

01:22:19.106 --> 01:22:20.228
Jonah can correct me on this one.

01:22:20.368 --> 01:22:21.488
I don't think the complex would

01:22:21.529 --> 01:22:22.948
necessarily have any insight into your

01:22:22.969 --> 01:22:23.350
traffic.

01:22:24.395 --> 01:22:24.615
Um,

01:22:24.956 --> 01:22:27.960
but I think they probably just have a

01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:29.462
relationship with that.

01:22:29.481 --> 01:22:30.762
It seems like every apartment I go to

01:22:30.804 --> 01:22:31.845
has a preferred provider.

01:22:31.925 --> 01:22:33.346
So that doesn't really surprise me,

01:22:33.487 --> 01:22:35.770
but it can definitely go both ways.

01:22:36.050 --> 01:22:36.229
Um,

01:22:36.270 --> 01:22:38.073
there's definitely a lot of apartments and

01:22:38.092 --> 01:22:40.296
especially probably older apartments where

01:22:40.315 --> 01:22:40.876
they have like,

01:22:41.679 --> 01:22:44.439
one provider like a cable provider or a

01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:46.180
fiber provider that has just like

01:22:46.220 --> 01:22:48.221
pre-installed cables to all of the rooms

01:22:48.301 --> 01:22:49.922
and so it's much easier to get that

01:22:49.983 --> 01:22:52.243
access um and so that might be what

01:22:52.283 --> 01:22:53.484
they mean when they're talking about like

01:22:53.505 --> 01:22:55.786
this is our preferred provider and

01:22:55.826 --> 01:22:58.627
especially typically if you have to set up

01:22:58.646 --> 01:23:01.769
an account with the isp yourself usually

01:23:01.788 --> 01:23:03.189
that's the case where the complex wouldn't

01:23:03.229 --> 01:23:05.770
have access to that i have seen in

01:23:06.511 --> 01:23:09.952
a ton of new developments around here um

01:23:10.471 --> 01:23:12.231
apartments basically getting their own

01:23:12.252 --> 01:23:15.613
connection and then running their own uh

01:23:16.092 --> 01:23:18.333
ethernet and and access points to all of

01:23:18.354 --> 01:23:20.573
these rooms but they run a central router

01:23:20.613 --> 01:23:21.895
basically that keeps all the rooms

01:23:21.935 --> 01:23:24.314
separate but it is all managed by the

01:23:24.354 --> 01:23:25.836
apartment and usually they have like

01:23:25.855 --> 01:23:26.695
apartment-wide

01:23:27.296 --> 01:23:30.057
wi-fi for example so all of their routers

01:23:30.578 --> 01:23:33.661
it gives you um sometimes they give you

01:23:33.961 --> 01:23:36.061
a uh like a personal connection and

01:23:36.082 --> 01:23:38.104
sometimes just this one wi-fi connection

01:23:38.123 --> 01:23:40.085
for the whole building um that's in all

01:23:40.104 --> 01:23:43.006
of the rooms um and you could certainly

01:23:43.067 --> 01:23:46.510
see that and that would be managed by

01:23:46.550 --> 01:23:48.771
the complex so it could go either way

01:23:48.872 --> 01:23:51.472
for sure um and i it seems to

01:23:51.493 --> 01:23:53.675
be even more common that it is apartment

01:23:53.755 --> 01:23:55.636
run so i wouldn't rule that out

01:23:55.676 --> 01:23:56.277
necessarily

01:23:57.978 --> 01:23:59.679
was how our last apartment was they had

01:23:59.798 --> 01:24:01.720
um i don't know if it was managed

01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:03.020
by the apartment but they were like hey

01:24:03.041 --> 01:24:04.462
this is included with the rent and they

01:24:04.481 --> 01:24:06.243
did have the apartment the complex wide

01:24:06.283 --> 01:24:09.104
wi-fi like you mentioned and there was one

01:24:09.204 --> 01:24:11.065
ethernet port that was in the study for

01:24:11.126 --> 01:24:12.527
some reason and that was the only one

01:24:12.546 --> 01:24:13.606
that were no it was in the living

01:24:13.646 --> 01:24:15.108
room and we had to run a cable

01:24:15.207 --> 01:24:16.548
into the study because my wife has a

01:24:16.588 --> 01:24:18.590
desktop that doesn't have wi-fi i remember

01:24:18.609 --> 01:24:20.230
that now yeah so that was probably the

01:24:20.251 --> 01:24:21.591
case i think in my last apartment it

01:24:21.612 --> 01:24:23.193
was a similar situation where

01:24:24.480 --> 01:24:26.601
If I wanted my own network,

01:24:26.823 --> 01:24:29.863
I would have to plug in my own

01:24:29.923 --> 01:24:32.126
router to their one Ethernet port that was

01:24:32.185 --> 01:24:33.365
provided on the access point,

01:24:33.386 --> 01:24:34.846
but I couldn't remove their access point

01:24:34.867 --> 01:24:36.188
from the room and make a direct

01:24:36.207 --> 01:24:36.688
connection.

01:24:37.128 --> 01:24:39.590
And it was basically like a double NAT

01:24:39.630 --> 01:24:39.930
setup.

01:24:40.050 --> 01:24:41.371
It was on their network,

01:24:42.131 --> 01:24:44.273
and then I had my own network just

01:24:44.292 --> 01:24:44.953
for security,

01:24:45.012 --> 01:24:47.255
but it was not a direct connection to

01:24:47.274 --> 01:24:47.595
the ISP.

01:24:47.614 --> 01:24:47.795
Okay.

01:24:49.710 --> 01:24:51.211
Which leads into what I was going to

01:24:51.251 --> 01:24:51.492
say.

01:24:51.572 --> 01:24:52.932
This is what I've been doing for years,

01:24:52.953 --> 01:24:54.194
and this is what I would recommend.

01:24:55.074 --> 01:24:56.856
For those of you who are really passionate

01:24:56.877 --> 01:24:57.556
about your privacy,

01:24:57.716 --> 01:24:58.797
which is probably most of you watching

01:24:58.818 --> 01:24:59.019
this,

01:25:00.260 --> 01:25:01.600
I would strongly recommend getting your

01:25:01.701 --> 01:25:02.261
own router.

01:25:03.722 --> 01:25:05.283
Our official recommendation, I believe,

01:25:05.304 --> 01:25:07.787
at Privacy Guides is OpenWRT, correct?

01:25:08.648 --> 01:25:09.268
I think so.

01:25:09.287 --> 01:25:10.649
We do recommend that as one.

01:25:11.390 --> 01:25:13.652
You could use OpenSense or PFSense as well

01:25:13.692 --> 01:25:14.792
if you want something more...

01:25:15.833 --> 01:25:16.253
robust,

01:25:16.274 --> 01:25:17.515
but usually that has to run on a

01:25:17.555 --> 01:25:17.975
computer,

01:25:18.034 --> 01:25:21.856
whereas OpenWrt can install on consumer

01:25:21.896 --> 01:25:22.957
router platforms.

01:25:23.738 --> 01:25:24.078
Gotcha.

01:25:24.337 --> 01:25:24.899
OK, yeah.

01:25:25.819 --> 01:25:26.479
Historically,

01:25:26.659 --> 01:25:29.461
I originally went with DDWrt.

01:25:29.480 --> 01:25:30.801
For years, it was not an issue.

01:25:30.942 --> 01:25:33.222
And then recently, it became an issue.

01:25:33.443 --> 01:25:34.342
I don't know what happened.

01:25:35.564 --> 01:25:38.365
Now I'm using a different one that Jordan

01:25:38.546 --> 01:25:40.587
actually recommended to me and so far has

01:25:40.606 --> 01:25:41.386
been amazing.

01:25:41.466 --> 01:25:42.787
Thank you for that recommendation, Jordan.

01:25:43.547 --> 01:25:46.109
um but yeah if i if i whenever

01:25:46.149 --> 01:25:48.551
this router dies assuming i can buy

01:25:48.610 --> 01:25:51.271
routers again um given our headline story

01:25:51.851 --> 01:25:54.292
i'm probably gonna go ahead and get uh

01:25:54.332 --> 01:25:55.113
the what is it the

01:25:56.474 --> 01:25:58.916
the one, I don't remember who makes it,

01:25:58.975 --> 01:26:00.676
but it's endorsed by the free software

01:26:00.716 --> 01:26:01.237
foundation.

01:26:01.358 --> 01:26:03.859
And it is specifically designed to run

01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:05.439
open WRT.

01:26:06.060 --> 01:26:09.042
And I did try open WRT on my

01:26:09.082 --> 01:26:10.203
router, but it,

01:26:10.503 --> 01:26:12.204
because it is so open source,

01:26:12.586 --> 01:26:15.467
it couldn't get access to multiple wifi

01:26:15.488 --> 01:26:15.927
networks,

01:26:16.467 --> 01:26:17.529
which is something I really want.

01:26:17.569 --> 01:26:18.670
That's, that's really important to me.

01:26:19.329 --> 01:26:20.190
Um, so it was like, yeah,

01:26:20.211 --> 01:26:21.492
you get this one wifi network.

01:26:21.511 --> 01:26:22.051
And I'm like, no,

01:26:22.091 --> 01:26:22.653
that ain't going to work.

01:26:22.773 --> 01:26:24.033
Um,

01:26:24.634 --> 01:26:25.953
But I'm sure if I bought something like

01:26:25.974 --> 01:26:26.675
the one router,

01:26:26.755 --> 01:26:28.234
it would be specifically designed for that

01:26:28.255 --> 01:26:29.234
and it would probably be able to do

01:26:29.295 --> 01:26:30.176
more, I'm hoping.

01:26:30.456 --> 01:26:31.695
I'll definitely look into it more when the

01:26:31.716 --> 01:26:32.155
time comes.

01:26:32.235 --> 01:26:33.856
But yeah, anyways,

01:26:33.896 --> 01:26:35.157
where I'm going with this is every

01:26:35.197 --> 01:26:36.137
apartment I've ever been to,

01:26:36.158 --> 01:26:37.738
they tell you like, oh,

01:26:37.818 --> 01:26:40.038
you can't use your router and our, okay,

01:26:40.099 --> 01:26:41.679
some of them have not told me that,

01:26:41.719 --> 01:26:43.020
but almost all of them are like, no,

01:26:43.039 --> 01:26:43.739
you can't do that.

01:26:44.359 --> 01:26:45.779
It's worked just fine for me, no problem.

01:26:45.859 --> 01:26:47.860
Personally, your mileage may vary,

01:26:47.921 --> 01:26:49.582
but for me, I've never had an issue.

01:26:50.601 --> 01:26:51.822
There's only been like one or two that

01:26:51.841 --> 01:26:52.662
are just like, yeah, whatever,

01:26:52.783 --> 01:26:53.743
use your router, we don't care.

01:26:54.662 --> 01:26:56.645
Um, I,

01:26:56.664 --> 01:26:58.626
I know my current router and I think

01:26:58.645 --> 01:27:00.887
a lot of ISP provided routers have this,

01:27:01.287 --> 01:27:03.430
they have a bridge mode where it basically

01:27:03.470 --> 01:27:05.030
shuts that router off and turns it into

01:27:05.051 --> 01:27:05.912
just a pass through.

01:27:06.152 --> 01:27:06.752
Um,

01:27:06.792 --> 01:27:07.792
because a lot of the time it will

01:27:07.813 --> 01:27:09.413
be, especially if it's fiber right now,

01:27:09.514 --> 01:27:10.114
it'll be, um,

01:27:11.340 --> 01:27:12.100
what's the word I'm looking for?

01:27:12.739 --> 01:27:14.520
The fiber connection will have to go into

01:27:14.541 --> 01:27:15.421
the ISP router.

01:27:15.440 --> 01:27:16.680
And then from there it goes into your

01:27:16.720 --> 01:27:18.680
router or there'll be like a coax cable.

01:27:19.041 --> 01:27:20.202
So it's not like an ethernet that you

01:27:20.221 --> 01:27:21.381
can just plug straight into the wall

01:27:21.502 --> 01:27:21.841
usually.

01:27:22.002 --> 01:27:23.261
And that's why you'll need their router.

01:27:23.301 --> 01:27:23.782
But a lot of them,

01:27:23.822 --> 01:27:25.403
you can put it in bridge mode and

01:27:25.422 --> 01:27:26.502
then it shuts their router off.

01:27:26.802 --> 01:27:27.943
Mine is not in bridge mode and it

01:27:27.962 --> 01:27:29.063
still works just fine.

01:27:29.622 --> 01:27:30.842
So yeah, I mean,

01:27:31.104 --> 01:27:32.543
there's a lot of ways to go about

01:27:32.583 --> 01:27:32.684
it,

01:27:32.743 --> 01:27:34.963
but I really do think I would highly

01:27:34.984 --> 01:27:35.423
encourage,

01:27:35.904 --> 01:27:37.045
and some of them can be expensive.

01:27:37.064 --> 01:27:37.904
Like I think my router,

01:27:37.944 --> 01:27:38.845
when I bought it was like,

01:27:39.564 --> 01:27:40.506
almost five hundred bucks,

01:27:40.525 --> 01:27:42.606
and I think that was used.

01:27:42.667 --> 01:27:44.488
So it's a nice router.

01:27:45.009 --> 01:27:45.628
I love that router.

01:27:45.708 --> 01:27:46.850
I'm glad it's lasted me this long.

01:27:46.930 --> 01:27:47.869
It's a good investment.

01:27:48.310 --> 01:27:49.110
So I'm not saying you have to go

01:27:49.131 --> 01:27:50.112
buy a five hundred dollar router.

01:27:50.131 --> 01:27:51.233
There's a lot of options out there,

01:27:51.273 --> 01:27:52.653
but definitely if you're passionate about

01:27:52.672 --> 01:27:55.435
your privacy and you are a renter and

01:27:55.475 --> 01:27:57.577
you don't have complete control over your

01:27:57.676 --> 01:27:59.118
ISP and what router they give you and

01:27:59.158 --> 01:27:59.377
stuff,

01:27:59.957 --> 01:28:01.719
definitely i would recommend doing your

01:28:01.759 --> 01:28:03.581
research start on privacy guides start

01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:05.141
with the open wrt see if that'll meet

01:28:05.162 --> 01:28:08.743
your needs and um you know see see

01:28:08.764 --> 01:28:10.085
about get another router because it pays

01:28:10.164 --> 01:28:12.546
off now we've got an iot network we've

01:28:12.567 --> 01:28:13.828
got a guest network we've got our main

01:28:13.868 --> 01:28:16.208
network we've got a built-in ad blocker

01:28:16.649 --> 01:28:19.331
we've got ad blocking dns um all the

01:28:19.350 --> 01:28:23.634
networks are segmented vlans it's just wow

01:28:23.654 --> 01:28:24.914
which is super overkill but i'm just

01:28:24.935 --> 01:28:26.395
saying like the possibilities are endless

01:28:26.435 --> 01:28:27.457
man yeah yeah

01:28:28.159 --> 01:28:29.280
Absolutely get your own router.

01:28:29.360 --> 01:28:29.560
I mean,

01:28:29.581 --> 01:28:31.282
that's the point of having a router.

01:28:31.301 --> 01:28:33.103
It's to segment your network from your

01:28:33.203 --> 01:28:33.384
ISP.

01:28:33.984 --> 01:28:36.605
Even if your apartment complex is your ISP

01:28:36.645 --> 01:28:37.305
in this case,

01:28:38.027 --> 01:28:39.547
you want to keep your stuff separate from

01:28:39.587 --> 01:28:39.787
that.

01:28:39.868 --> 01:28:42.289
And you can always do more advanced stuff

01:28:42.310 --> 01:28:43.109
with your own router.

01:28:43.170 --> 01:28:44.690
Like if you don't trust your apartment,

01:28:44.751 --> 01:28:46.512
you can run a VPN on that to

01:28:46.552 --> 01:28:48.613
protect all of your devices and stuff like

01:28:48.654 --> 01:28:48.894
that.

01:28:50.314 --> 01:28:52.176
Or you just use the router to prevent

01:28:52.617 --> 01:28:55.177
other people on your apartment Wi-Fi or

01:28:55.217 --> 01:28:56.800
maybe just other people on the internet if

01:28:56.840 --> 01:28:57.399
your apartment

01:28:58.188 --> 01:28:59.427
doesn't have proper security,

01:28:59.467 --> 01:29:02.248
which they certainly might not because

01:29:02.269 --> 01:29:03.470
they're an apartment building that knows

01:29:03.489 --> 01:29:04.729
nothing about the internet.

01:29:06.150 --> 01:29:07.650
You want to have like a firewall in

01:29:07.690 --> 01:29:09.192
between to keep your devices safe.

01:29:09.271 --> 01:29:11.551
So yeah,

01:29:11.572 --> 01:29:14.493
there's almost no reason you can not use

01:29:14.533 --> 01:29:17.753
a router because generally they can't

01:29:18.095 --> 01:29:20.734
really tell what device you connect to it.

01:29:20.875 --> 01:29:22.996
So even if they tell you you can't

01:29:23.055 --> 01:29:23.576
use a router,

01:29:23.756 --> 01:29:25.317
I would definitely just use one anyways.

01:29:27.115 --> 01:29:27.275
Yeah.

01:29:27.416 --> 01:29:27.935
Like I said, they,

01:29:28.256 --> 01:29:29.356
most of them tell me you can't.

01:29:29.497 --> 01:29:30.197
And then I'm like, Oh,

01:29:30.216 --> 01:29:30.756
let me try it.

01:29:30.817 --> 01:29:31.238
Plug it in.

01:29:31.278 --> 01:29:31.837
Works great.

01:29:32.337 --> 01:29:32.478
Um,

01:29:32.557 --> 01:29:33.599
one last thing I wanted to add real

01:29:33.618 --> 01:29:35.179
quick actually is, um,

01:29:35.219 --> 01:29:36.239
when we're listing benefits,

01:29:36.380 --> 01:29:36.939
a lot of the time,

01:29:37.000 --> 01:29:38.279
the benefits are not always privacy

01:29:38.319 --> 01:29:38.619
related.

01:29:39.161 --> 01:29:40.320
It makes set up in your new place

01:29:40.360 --> 01:29:42.061
super easy because you move to a new

01:29:42.101 --> 01:29:42.502
apartment,

01:29:42.542 --> 01:29:44.021
you plug your router in and look at

01:29:44.042 --> 01:29:44.243
that.

01:29:44.622 --> 01:29:45.962
All your devices are ready to go.

01:29:46.042 --> 01:29:47.423
You don't have to type in a new

01:29:47.484 --> 01:29:47.844
network.

01:29:47.863 --> 01:29:48.764
You don't have to set up a new

01:29:48.804 --> 01:29:50.805
network, just plug it in and go.

01:29:51.085 --> 01:29:52.225
So yeah.

01:29:52.345 --> 01:29:53.105
Yeah, absolutely.

01:29:56.574 --> 01:29:56.994
All right.

01:29:57.194 --> 01:30:00.838
So I think that's all we had for

01:30:00.878 --> 01:30:01.738
the forums for now.

01:30:01.759 --> 01:30:03.060
And now we're going to take some viewer

01:30:03.161 --> 01:30:03.841
questions.

01:30:04.221 --> 01:30:05.462
So we're going to start with questions on

01:30:05.502 --> 01:30:06.002
the forum,

01:30:06.543 --> 01:30:08.185
specifically from our paying members,

01:30:08.204 --> 01:30:09.525
but I don't believe we had any paying

01:30:09.546 --> 01:30:10.306
members right now.

01:30:11.108 --> 01:30:11.929
But if you would like to become a

01:30:11.969 --> 01:30:13.090
paying member and get priority,

01:30:13.149 --> 01:30:14.511
you can go to privacyguides.org,

01:30:14.591 --> 01:30:15.992
click the little red heart icon in the

01:30:16.032 --> 01:30:16.813
top right corner.

01:30:17.854 --> 01:30:20.076
So we'll jump into the forum first and

01:30:20.095 --> 01:30:22.018
then hop over to our live chat.

01:30:23.198 --> 01:30:23.398
Um,

01:30:23.578 --> 01:30:25.498
and we only had a couple of questions

01:30:25.519 --> 01:30:25.979
in the forum.

01:30:26.019 --> 01:30:28.340
The first one asked us to talk about

01:30:28.380 --> 01:30:29.760
this article from wired,

01:30:29.840 --> 01:30:31.541
which I'm not going to talk about too

01:30:31.581 --> 01:30:31.881
much.

01:30:32.020 --> 01:30:32.480
Cause honestly,

01:30:32.501 --> 01:30:34.042
I don't think there's much to talk about.

01:30:34.061 --> 01:30:36.021
Um,

01:30:36.042 --> 01:30:36.863
but I think it is a good thing

01:30:36.882 --> 01:30:38.643
to have on your radar because it may

01:30:38.962 --> 01:30:40.463
become more to talk about in the future.

01:30:40.484 --> 01:30:41.064
Uh,

01:30:41.543 --> 01:30:43.244
the headline says using a VPN may subject

01:30:43.265 --> 01:30:44.185
you to NSA spying.

01:30:44.305 --> 01:30:45.305
I did see this article.

01:30:45.805 --> 01:30:48.025
The issue is the keyword there is may,

01:30:48.407 --> 01:30:49.987
and that's kind of why we didn't include

01:30:50.027 --> 01:30:51.387
this as one of our main stories is

01:30:51.427 --> 01:30:52.148
basically, uh,

01:30:54.088 --> 01:30:54.448
Excuse me.

01:30:54.829 --> 01:30:57.271
Lawmakers are – well,

01:30:57.292 --> 01:30:58.511
I'll just read the first part.

01:30:58.813 --> 01:31:00.413
Lawmakers are pressing the nation's top

01:31:00.453 --> 01:31:02.274
intelligence official to publicly disclose

01:31:02.335 --> 01:31:04.056
whether Americans who use commercial VPN

01:31:04.077 --> 01:31:05.997
services risk being treated as foreigners

01:31:06.078 --> 01:31:06.538
under U.S.

01:31:06.559 --> 01:31:08.539
surveillance law,

01:31:08.579 --> 01:31:10.782
a classification that would strip them of

01:31:10.841 --> 01:31:12.563
constitutional protections against

01:31:12.622 --> 01:31:13.663
warrantless government spying.

01:31:13.764 --> 01:31:15.765
So I know I mentioned this before in

01:31:15.784 --> 01:31:16.105
the past,

01:31:16.145 --> 01:31:18.447
but really quick recap for those who don't

01:31:18.466 --> 01:31:18.688
know.

01:31:18.887 --> 01:31:20.448
The way that –

01:31:20.628 --> 01:31:22.872
surveillance laws on paper are currently

01:31:22.912 --> 01:31:25.195
structured is the government is not

01:31:25.216 --> 01:31:26.698
supposed to spy on its own citizens,

01:31:27.018 --> 01:31:29.301
but any signals that move in or out

01:31:29.341 --> 01:31:31.704
of the country are subject to surveillance

01:31:31.744 --> 01:31:33.527
because now you're including somebody

01:31:33.546 --> 01:31:34.748
who's potentially not a citizen,

01:31:35.270 --> 01:31:35.750
potentially.

01:31:37.966 --> 01:31:39.426
And there's a whole lot of reasons for

01:31:39.447 --> 01:31:39.707
this.

01:31:40.186 --> 01:31:41.768
Edward Snowden has a classic interview

01:31:41.787 --> 01:31:42.448
with John Oliver,

01:31:42.547 --> 01:31:43.667
or I guess John Oliver has a classic

01:31:43.688 --> 01:31:44.528
interview with Edward Snowden,

01:31:45.007 --> 01:31:47.309
where Snowden explains how a lot of the

01:31:47.349 --> 01:31:49.309
time the communications will route through

01:31:49.328 --> 01:31:50.149
the fastest network,

01:31:50.170 --> 01:31:51.689
which may temporarily take them out of the

01:31:51.710 --> 01:31:52.130
country,

01:31:52.229 --> 01:31:54.529
or companies may move the server to

01:31:54.649 --> 01:31:56.890
another location digitally to do physical

01:31:56.930 --> 01:31:58.171
maintenance on the server, whatever.

01:31:58.690 --> 01:31:59.211
Point being,

01:31:59.291 --> 01:32:00.851
it's really not a good way of doing

01:32:00.891 --> 01:32:01.212
things.

01:32:01.292 --> 01:32:02.551
And this article points out why,

01:32:02.591 --> 01:32:05.533
because they point out that since VPNs are

01:32:05.653 --> 01:32:06.533
so ubiquitous,

01:32:07.233 --> 01:32:09.734
Even if a VPN server is located here

01:32:09.753 --> 01:32:10.213
in the US,

01:32:10.234 --> 01:32:11.534
like say you've got your VPN set to

01:32:11.635 --> 01:32:14.555
New York or LA or Dallas or whatever,

01:32:15.756 --> 01:32:17.197
there's a really good possibility,

01:32:17.417 --> 01:32:18.778
especially in those examples I gave,

01:32:18.837 --> 01:32:20.338
that there may be users from other

01:32:20.378 --> 01:32:21.759
countries using that server.

01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:24.199
And so they're basically saying,

01:32:25.520 --> 01:32:26.601
I don't know if somebody tipped them off

01:32:26.622 --> 01:32:26.962
to this.

01:32:27.443 --> 01:32:29.564
I didn't have a chance to fully read

01:32:29.585 --> 01:32:30.605
this article all the way,

01:32:31.145 --> 01:32:32.927
but they're basically saying because these

01:32:33.087 --> 01:32:34.868
VPN servers could potentially include

01:32:34.889 --> 01:32:35.390
foreigners,

01:32:35.869 --> 01:32:38.391
does the NSA treat them as foreign

01:32:38.431 --> 01:32:38.953
traffic,

01:32:39.913 --> 01:32:41.694
which would mean that even if I'm a

01:32:41.774 --> 01:32:42.355
US citizen,

01:32:42.756 --> 01:32:44.176
if I connect to a server in Dallas,

01:32:45.057 --> 01:32:46.238
I'm still in the country,

01:32:46.378 --> 01:32:49.121
but are you going to assume that I'm

01:32:49.180 --> 01:32:49.440
not?

01:32:49.640 --> 01:32:51.322
So, yeah,

01:32:51.341 --> 01:32:52.962
we didn't cover that story because it's

01:32:52.983 --> 01:32:53.884
very speculative,

01:32:53.984 --> 01:32:55.585
but I do agree it's definitely a good

01:32:55.625 --> 01:32:56.985
thing to have on your radar.

01:32:57.506 --> 01:32:57.886
Yeah.

01:32:59.146 --> 01:33:00.127
I don't know what the impact of this

01:33:00.148 --> 01:33:00.448
would be.

01:33:00.627 --> 01:33:03.970
I think the opposite is also true here,

01:33:04.010 --> 01:33:05.150
which people are concerned about,

01:33:05.230 --> 01:33:08.573
whereas you're talking about connecting to

01:33:08.613 --> 01:33:09.493
a server in Dallas,

01:33:09.514 --> 01:33:10.873
and that could be a concern,

01:33:10.913 --> 01:33:12.996
but also if an American server

01:33:13.555 --> 01:33:16.197
connects to a server in some other country

01:33:16.657 --> 01:33:20.898
um like like france will their data be

01:33:20.938 --> 01:33:23.318
collected by the nsa because they don't

01:33:23.358 --> 01:33:24.779
know that it's an american and they're

01:33:24.798 --> 01:33:26.279
spying on people out of the country i

01:33:26.319 --> 01:33:27.880
think that that's also a concern i don't

01:33:27.899 --> 01:33:29.720
think about that that's a good perhaps

01:33:29.760 --> 01:33:31.940
even more of a concern than connecting to

01:33:31.961 --> 01:33:34.440
uh to an american server i would say

01:33:34.461 --> 01:33:37.202
that this is probably likely to be the

01:33:37.242 --> 01:33:39.601
case knowing the nsa we've seen similar

01:33:39.622 --> 01:33:40.643
things um

01:33:42.023 --> 01:33:44.225
And it is one argument that I've seen

01:33:44.404 --> 01:33:46.886
as to why maybe you should use a

01:33:47.046 --> 01:33:47.367
U.S.

01:33:47.386 --> 01:33:47.787
server,

01:33:47.807 --> 01:33:51.289
because if you are concerned about U.S.

01:33:51.310 --> 01:33:51.810
surveillance,

01:33:51.831 --> 01:33:54.193
there are more restrictions on what the

01:33:54.212 --> 01:33:57.694
government can do in the U.S., supposedly,

01:33:57.715 --> 01:33:59.296
than what they can do outside the U.S.,

01:33:59.317 --> 01:34:00.677
which is pretty much anything they want.

01:34:02.880 --> 01:34:04.501
But, I mean, even in the U.S.,

01:34:06.317 --> 01:34:08.539
A lot of the way that this government

01:34:08.699 --> 01:34:11.925
intelligence works is like the U.S.

01:34:11.944 --> 01:34:14.067
can get other countries to do this

01:34:14.106 --> 01:34:15.890
intelligence for them and spy on American

01:34:15.930 --> 01:34:16.430
citizens,

01:34:17.212 --> 01:34:19.293
just like they can get big tech companies

01:34:19.333 --> 01:34:20.515
to spy on American citizens.

01:34:20.536 --> 01:34:21.858
This is a huge problem that we've talked

01:34:21.898 --> 01:34:22.078
about

01:34:23.500 --> 01:34:25.461
for many weeks now, especially with Flock,

01:34:25.501 --> 01:34:26.162
for example,

01:34:26.221 --> 01:34:30.244
where the government doesn't have to do

01:34:30.505 --> 01:34:32.726
anything because they just pay someone

01:34:32.766 --> 01:34:33.207
else to do it.

01:34:33.226 --> 01:34:34.728
It's also an issue with data brokers.

01:34:34.747 --> 01:34:35.889
We've talked about that as well.

01:34:36.229 --> 01:34:37.890
The government doesn't have to collect all

01:34:37.930 --> 01:34:38.930
of your location data,

01:34:39.171 --> 01:34:40.792
but they can buy all of your location

01:34:40.832 --> 01:34:42.713
data, and that, for some reason,

01:34:42.753 --> 01:34:44.055
is perfectly legal.

01:34:45.896 --> 01:34:46.077
So

01:34:49.358 --> 01:34:49.939
I would say,

01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:51.542
I think I already said this,

01:34:51.561 --> 01:34:53.784
but I think that this is likely to

01:34:53.805 --> 01:34:54.286
be the case.

01:34:54.326 --> 01:34:55.287
I guess we don't know for sure,

01:34:55.328 --> 01:34:57.131
but I wouldn't be surprised if this was.

01:34:57.211 --> 01:34:59.795
But also, if it is,

01:34:59.854 --> 01:35:01.377
I'm not exactly sure how to

01:35:02.506 --> 01:35:04.427
protect yourself against it at the moment.

01:35:04.868 --> 01:35:06.211
The best thing we could do is if

01:35:06.230 --> 01:35:07.372
this is confirmed, you know,

01:35:07.391 --> 01:35:11.837
we'd have to demand change and demand some

01:35:11.877 --> 01:35:13.539
restrictions on how the NSA works,

01:35:13.600 --> 01:35:15.762
which we've also been talking about for a

01:35:15.802 --> 01:35:16.122
while.

01:35:16.384 --> 01:35:18.726
And I'm not sure if that'll happen.

01:35:22.051 --> 01:35:22.692
Yeah.

01:35:22.731 --> 01:35:24.073
Before we move on to the next question,

01:35:24.094 --> 01:35:25.837
this is kind of a follow-up here from

01:35:26.197 --> 01:35:26.917
one of our viewers.

01:35:27.658 --> 01:35:29.362
We advertise VPNs as a tool against

01:35:29.402 --> 01:35:30.443
surveillance capitalism,

01:35:30.523 --> 01:35:32.426
not government surveillance.

01:35:33.467 --> 01:35:35.770
So would this change how we recommend

01:35:36.372 --> 01:35:36.993
VPNs?

01:35:37.353 --> 01:35:37.712
Yeah,

01:35:37.733 --> 01:35:39.814
I guess that's kind of my main point.

01:35:39.854 --> 01:35:43.497
It doesn't seem like for the purposes that

01:35:43.537 --> 01:35:45.319
most people use a VPN for,

01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:46.779
this is going to make a big difference.

01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:48.480
It's obviously a concern.

01:35:48.541 --> 01:35:50.061
I don't think that the NSA should be

01:35:50.101 --> 01:35:52.304
allowed to spy on American citizens,

01:35:52.503 --> 01:35:54.324
just like the CIA shouldn't be able to.

01:35:54.364 --> 01:35:55.345
None of these...

01:35:56.606 --> 01:35:58.307
None of these agencies really have

01:35:58.507 --> 01:36:00.047
authority to do that,

01:36:00.849 --> 01:36:02.609
and they probably are anyways through

01:36:02.668 --> 01:36:03.550
loopholes like this.

01:36:04.210 --> 01:36:06.110
But there's a lot of ways that they

01:36:06.131 --> 01:36:07.011
can get around this,

01:36:07.171 --> 01:36:09.231
and it's not really the intent of a

01:36:09.252 --> 01:36:11.533
VPN in the first place.

01:36:13.613 --> 01:36:15.515
They're much more useful for like sharing

01:36:15.534 --> 01:36:17.314
an IP address with other people so that

01:36:17.354 --> 01:36:17.494
you

01:36:19.475 --> 01:36:21.358
So that your data can't be like uniquely

01:36:21.417 --> 01:36:23.939
identified in logs or by data brokers and

01:36:24.239 --> 01:36:24.980
stuff like that.

01:36:26.140 --> 01:36:27.943
So, yeah,

01:36:28.483 --> 01:36:30.965
it's not something that I think is going

01:36:30.984 --> 01:36:32.907
to protect from government surveillance in

01:36:32.926 --> 01:36:33.587
the first place.

01:36:33.846 --> 01:36:35.207
I think it's clear that

01:36:36.189 --> 01:36:40.210
And using an anonymity network like Tor

01:36:41.190 --> 01:36:43.110
makes a lot more sense if this is

01:36:43.251 --> 01:36:44.011
your threat model,

01:36:44.030 --> 01:36:46.152
but also if you are extremely concerned

01:36:46.171 --> 01:36:47.813
about being targeted by the government

01:36:47.853 --> 01:36:49.372
rather than swept up in their mass

01:36:49.393 --> 01:36:49.912
surveillance,

01:36:50.273 --> 01:36:51.833
even something like Tor may not be

01:36:52.634 --> 01:36:54.234
the best choice for you and you really

01:36:54.274 --> 01:36:56.795
need very specific help.

01:36:57.435 --> 01:36:59.194
Whatever Edward Snowden is doing,

01:36:59.576 --> 01:37:02.155
he has experts working on the best way

01:37:02.195 --> 01:37:02.595
for him.

01:37:02.735 --> 01:37:03.935
You can't just do that on your own.

01:37:04.037 --> 01:37:05.777
But yeah,

01:37:05.796 --> 01:37:07.056
for this mass surveillance stuff,

01:37:08.016 --> 01:37:10.618
I think commercial VPNs are still all

01:37:10.677 --> 01:37:14.519
right, usually better than your ISP.

01:37:14.679 --> 01:37:16.639
At least you have a choice between VPN

01:37:16.658 --> 01:37:17.158
providers.

01:37:19.420 --> 01:37:19.680
But

01:37:21.277 --> 01:37:22.618
They're certainly not perfect.

01:37:22.938 --> 01:37:23.337
And yeah,

01:37:23.377 --> 01:37:24.840
none of this would surprise me if it's

01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:25.220
true.

01:37:27.761 --> 01:37:27.902
Yeah,

01:37:27.921 --> 01:37:29.082
that was kind of my same thought about

01:37:29.722 --> 01:37:31.564
using Tor instead for government stuff.

01:37:34.845 --> 01:37:37.068
We had another question here about our

01:37:37.167 --> 01:37:38.708
outgoing team member, M.

01:37:40.229 --> 01:37:42.011
I think I'll leave that one to you,

01:37:42.051 --> 01:37:43.471
because you would be more qualified to

01:37:43.492 --> 01:37:44.832
know what's going on behind the scenes

01:37:44.853 --> 01:37:45.373
with all that.

01:37:47.715 --> 01:37:51.716
um really there's a lot of questions here

01:37:52.317 --> 01:37:55.757
um this person so em uh recently posted

01:37:56.177 --> 01:37:58.318
on our forum about how she's leaving

01:37:58.939 --> 01:38:01.698
privacy guides uh she's also posted some

01:38:01.719 --> 01:38:05.081
stuff on mastodon um earlier this month so

01:38:05.121 --> 01:38:08.240
this isn't like brand new information um

01:38:08.261 --> 01:38:09.402
but i don't think we've talked about it

01:38:09.502 --> 01:38:12.363
on the forum or their show before um

01:38:14.344 --> 01:38:14.804
So,

01:38:16.465 --> 01:38:17.945
I guess I'll go through these questions

01:38:18.806 --> 01:38:19.567
one by one.

01:38:22.756 --> 01:38:24.157
I guess I'll start with the end first,

01:38:24.497 --> 01:38:26.257
because there's a couple questions here

01:38:26.297 --> 01:38:27.497
that I probably can't get into.

01:38:27.537 --> 01:38:29.217
So they asked,

01:38:29.238 --> 01:38:31.679
what was the decision behind choosing

01:38:31.859 --> 01:38:32.759
which staff to let go?

01:38:32.779 --> 01:38:34.479
Are there plans for hiring Em again once

01:38:34.500 --> 01:38:35.960
the financials allow for it,

01:38:36.279 --> 01:38:37.939
as long as she's also available for hire?

01:38:38.260 --> 01:38:39.661
Do we plan on hiring someone else?

01:38:39.740 --> 01:38:42.860
Did you guys know we would have to

01:38:42.900 --> 01:38:44.282
let someone go for some time,

01:38:44.341 --> 01:38:45.282
or did it come as a shock?

01:38:46.761 --> 01:38:50.144
A lot of questions about specific people

01:38:50.224 --> 01:38:52.045
on our team and the contracts that we

01:38:52.104 --> 01:38:55.087
have with them, I can't really get into.

01:38:55.127 --> 01:38:57.148
It's not really my place to discuss a

01:38:57.207 --> 01:38:59.189
lot of these contract questions and

01:38:59.208 --> 01:39:00.529
there's kind of a lot going into it.

01:39:00.548 --> 01:39:02.951
It's a very personal situation.

01:39:02.970 --> 01:39:03.671
So unfortunately,

01:39:03.711 --> 01:39:07.792
I can't really share a lot of information

01:39:08.552 --> 01:39:10.094
on that front.

01:39:12.115 --> 01:39:12.957
Because yeah,

01:39:12.976 --> 01:39:14.779
that's that's that's not my place.

01:39:14.798 --> 01:39:18.663
That's kind of a Personal thing

01:39:22.259 --> 01:39:22.538
Yeah,

01:39:22.559 --> 01:39:24.841
I just can't talk about any employer stuff

01:39:25.582 --> 01:39:27.384
about specific employees, right?

01:39:27.423 --> 01:39:29.606
That is more of a one-on-one thing that

01:39:29.627 --> 01:39:30.207
we have with them.

01:39:31.628 --> 01:39:32.710
So yeah,

01:39:32.810 --> 01:39:34.591
I won't get into really any of that,

01:39:34.652 --> 01:39:35.693
unfortunately, for you.

01:39:35.773 --> 01:39:37.234
But I can talk about some of your

01:39:37.255 --> 01:39:37.994
other questions.

01:39:38.055 --> 01:39:40.618
So are there any goals or plans we

01:39:40.658 --> 01:39:42.460
have for ensuring good financials to

01:39:42.560 --> 01:39:43.761
maintain our current employees?

01:39:45.681 --> 01:39:45.882
Yeah,

01:39:47.243 --> 01:39:49.863
right now we have pretty solid financials

01:39:49.904 --> 01:39:51.184
and there's definitely some plans to

01:39:51.224 --> 01:39:53.744
improve fundraising and make more revenue

01:39:54.164 --> 01:39:54.666
this year.

01:39:55.265 --> 01:39:57.567
I'm not concerned at all about our ability

01:39:57.646 --> 01:39:59.987
to keep our team hired.

01:40:01.568 --> 01:40:03.429
And so that is not a concern for

01:40:03.469 --> 01:40:05.671
me at all.

01:40:05.751 --> 01:40:07.612
I think a big part of that will

01:40:07.652 --> 01:40:11.175
be to focus more on videos.

01:40:11.215 --> 01:40:12.916
We've seen a lot of good growth on

01:40:12.956 --> 01:40:15.077
the video YouTube side of things and also

01:40:15.117 --> 01:40:18.300
making more stuff for members.

01:40:19.239 --> 01:40:19.761
You also asked,

01:40:19.780 --> 01:40:21.902
do we plan to make more merchandise?

01:40:22.662 --> 01:40:24.184
That is something that I,

01:40:25.123 --> 01:40:26.385
we'd certainly like to do this year.

01:40:26.685 --> 01:40:27.286
That's not,

01:40:27.805 --> 01:40:29.466
the whole shop and merchandise thing isn't

01:40:29.506 --> 01:40:30.667
a big, like,

01:40:31.307 --> 01:40:33.750
source of money for us or anything.

01:40:34.050 --> 01:40:37.332
We're really doing that more as like a

01:40:37.372 --> 01:40:38.953
marketing expenditure.

01:40:38.993 --> 01:40:41.014
It's good to get designs out there so

01:40:41.033 --> 01:40:41.954
people are wearing them,

01:40:42.555 --> 01:40:44.356
starting conversations about privacy,

01:40:45.077 --> 01:40:45.676
all of that stuff.

01:40:47.836 --> 01:40:50.238
yeah i hope to have more designs um

01:40:50.438 --> 01:40:53.740
we definitely want to sell shirts and

01:40:53.820 --> 01:40:57.423
other you know other stuff to to get

01:40:57.463 --> 01:40:59.765
privacy guys out there and i'd be happy

01:40:59.925 --> 01:41:01.587
to see more people wearing that stuff and

01:41:01.646 --> 01:41:04.088
talking about it and going to conferences

01:41:04.149 --> 01:41:06.090
or whatever and talking about privacy but

01:41:06.411 --> 01:41:08.792
that's not a huge um like revenue

01:41:09.233 --> 01:41:11.694
generator for us i will say um so

01:41:11.715 --> 01:41:14.036
that is definitely not our main plan to

01:41:14.055 --> 01:41:15.597
make money um

01:41:17.115 --> 01:41:18.296
They asked about YouTube.

01:41:18.577 --> 01:41:20.237
More views mean more revenue.

01:41:22.438 --> 01:41:23.318
Yes, they certainly do.

01:41:23.557 --> 01:41:24.819
The nice thing is that we've seen a

01:41:24.859 --> 01:41:27.020
ton of growth on our YouTube channel so

01:41:27.060 --> 01:41:27.340
far.

01:41:28.961 --> 01:41:30.060
In the last twenty eight days,

01:41:30.100 --> 01:41:32.002
we've got fifty thousand views,

01:41:32.021 --> 01:41:35.023
which is thirty three thousand more than

01:41:35.082 --> 01:41:37.984
our usual average for a month.

01:41:38.083 --> 01:41:42.725
So things are definitely on an upswing and

01:41:42.765 --> 01:41:44.586
we hope to continue that going forward.

01:41:48.206 --> 01:41:50.547
Have we reached out for grants?

01:41:51.668 --> 01:41:51.908
Yes,

01:41:51.969 --> 01:41:54.652
we have some grant opportunities that

01:41:54.692 --> 01:41:55.832
we've explored.

01:41:55.972 --> 01:41:59.555
That's definitely a big thing that we'd

01:41:59.595 --> 01:42:00.136
want to do.

01:42:00.176 --> 01:42:02.298
We'd love to get grants for specific

01:42:02.738 --> 01:42:04.000
projects in the future.

01:42:05.341 --> 01:42:07.542
Yes, our sponsorships on the table.

01:42:08.302 --> 01:42:11.824
All of the sponsorship stuff and affiliate

01:42:11.864 --> 01:42:12.305
links,

01:42:12.625 --> 01:42:13.865
that's not something that we plan to do

01:42:13.926 --> 01:42:14.966
on our main content,

01:42:15.286 --> 01:42:16.707
like the website or the forum.

01:42:17.766 --> 01:42:20.828
It's not totally ruled out for the videos

01:42:20.868 --> 01:42:21.408
that we make,

01:42:22.529 --> 01:42:23.829
especially because it's so common on

01:42:23.930 --> 01:42:24.451
YouTube.

01:42:25.291 --> 01:42:27.193
um that's still an idea that we're

01:42:27.252 --> 01:42:30.914
exploring we likely could at some point do

01:42:30.994 --> 01:42:34.978
sponsorships from like companies uh

01:42:34.997 --> 01:42:37.500
completely unrelated to privacy if if the

01:42:37.539 --> 01:42:40.042
opportunity makes sense i i won't say that

01:42:40.061 --> 01:42:41.903
we're that we never do a sponsorship with

01:42:41.922 --> 01:42:43.203
this company but just because they're so

01:42:43.384 --> 01:42:45.206
common on youtube i would just say like

01:42:45.286 --> 01:42:47.046
raid shadow legends could be a good

01:42:47.106 --> 01:42:48.967
example of something we might do just

01:42:49.007 --> 01:42:49.389
because

01:42:50.088 --> 01:42:51.810
They're completely unrelated to privacy

01:42:51.831 --> 01:42:52.211
and they,

01:42:53.032 --> 01:42:53.893
I don't know if they still do,

01:42:53.932 --> 01:42:55.533
but at some point they were sponsoring

01:42:55.573 --> 01:42:57.015
like every single YouTube video I watched.

01:42:57.034 --> 01:42:58.896
So I won't say that specifically,

01:42:58.936 --> 01:43:00.578
but that's kind of an example of something

01:43:00.618 --> 01:43:01.920
we could potentially consider.

01:43:02.860 --> 01:43:04.362
Another thing we could consider on the

01:43:04.381 --> 01:43:06.623
video side of things is like if a

01:43:06.684 --> 01:43:09.145
company we do recommend wanted to sponsor

01:43:10.887 --> 01:43:13.289
like a tutorial about their product or

01:43:13.329 --> 01:43:14.110
something like that.

01:43:15.671 --> 01:43:15.872
Like,

01:43:17.092 --> 01:43:19.073
it could be any company we recommend,

01:43:19.113 --> 01:43:19.895
like Proton,

01:43:20.215 --> 01:43:21.536
if they wanted us to do a walkthrough

01:43:21.815 --> 01:43:22.496
on ProtonMail.

01:43:22.936 --> 01:43:23.457
It's something...

01:43:25.997 --> 01:43:27.279
I can't say whether we would do that

01:43:27.319 --> 01:43:27.559
or not.

01:43:27.599 --> 01:43:28.699
We'll have to explore it if the

01:43:28.720 --> 01:43:29.801
opportunity arises,

01:43:29.860 --> 01:43:31.601
but it's not something we would totally

01:43:32.221 --> 01:43:34.863
rule out at this time.

01:43:34.984 --> 01:43:36.324
So on the video side of things,

01:43:36.425 --> 01:43:39.867
we may do that in the future in

01:43:39.926 --> 01:43:40.966
some cases, but...

01:43:42.127 --> 01:43:43.569
yeah we'll have to think about that a

01:43:43.609 --> 01:43:45.770
lot more um and it's not something that

01:43:45.810 --> 01:43:49.493
we totally that we have any immediate

01:43:49.533 --> 01:43:52.315
plans for anything like that um but

01:43:53.176 --> 01:43:55.679
potentially on the table uh do we intend

01:43:55.698 --> 01:43:57.300
to make more members only content to

01:43:57.340 --> 01:44:00.061
incentivize membership uh yeah absolutely

01:44:00.101 --> 01:44:01.922
we do want to do more members only

01:44:01.943 --> 01:44:04.744
stuff especially in the video uh side of

01:44:04.765 --> 01:44:08.708
things um there's there's a balance that

01:44:08.748 --> 01:44:08.868
we

01:44:09.809 --> 01:44:11.149
uh want to draw though because a lot

01:44:11.189 --> 01:44:14.152
of our members only a lot of the

01:44:14.192 --> 01:44:16.073
content that we publish in general um we

01:44:16.094 --> 01:44:17.914
feel that it's important to get out there

01:44:17.935 --> 01:44:20.555
for everyone so it's very tricky to do

01:44:20.596 --> 01:44:22.757
members only content in the first place um

01:44:23.878 --> 01:44:26.300
it's i'm glad we have so many members

01:44:26.380 --> 01:44:29.521
that um are generous enough to kind of

01:44:29.722 --> 01:44:31.844
keep up with their subscriptions even as

01:44:31.923 --> 01:44:34.945
we uh haven't published a ton of like

01:44:34.985 --> 01:44:37.127
members exclusive content only like early

01:44:37.207 --> 01:44:38.988
access to videos and stuff just because

01:44:40.349 --> 01:44:42.569
Those memberships really help us get all

01:44:42.590 --> 01:44:44.190
of this content out there and let us

01:44:44.310 --> 01:44:48.692
make things that everyone,

01:44:48.731 --> 01:44:49.792
hopefully everyone in the world,

01:44:49.853 --> 01:44:51.412
anyone interested in privacy benefits

01:44:51.453 --> 01:44:51.712
from.

01:44:53.314 --> 01:44:54.533
So yeah,

01:44:55.255 --> 01:44:56.314
I don't know where that line will be,

01:44:56.354 --> 01:44:58.036
but we have some ideas and that is

01:44:58.055 --> 01:44:59.555
something that we want to explore further

01:44:59.815 --> 01:45:00.676
in twenty twenty six.

01:45:02.796 --> 01:45:04.177
I think that's kind of all the questions

01:45:04.337 --> 01:45:04.898
I will say.

01:45:08.268 --> 01:45:10.270
A lot of the stuff that Em has

01:45:10.329 --> 01:45:12.271
been working on recently,

01:45:15.014 --> 01:45:16.176
we definitely plan to continue.

01:45:16.235 --> 01:45:17.516
So like all of the activism stuff,

01:45:17.537 --> 01:45:19.479
we want to keep up with that section,

01:45:20.539 --> 01:45:21.199
expanding it.

01:45:21.460 --> 01:45:23.021
It's going to be very challenging.

01:45:23.622 --> 01:45:23.922
Of course,

01:45:23.983 --> 01:45:27.626
it always is losing any team member for

01:45:27.706 --> 01:45:27.886
us,

01:45:27.987 --> 01:45:28.207
but

01:45:30.203 --> 01:45:31.884
Will will make do and we,

01:45:32.844 --> 01:45:34.045
we certainly don't want to give up on

01:45:34.085 --> 01:45:34.784
any of those projects,

01:45:34.824 --> 01:45:37.966
because we have received a lot of positive

01:45:38.006 --> 01:45:39.447
responses to things like that.

01:45:39.487 --> 01:45:40.807
And we're hoping to expand it.

01:45:40.847 --> 01:45:43.769
So if you guys do like that stuff,

01:45:45.029 --> 01:45:45.869
definitely let us know.

01:45:45.909 --> 01:45:48.452
But all of that is we still plan

01:45:48.532 --> 01:45:48.591
on

01:45:49.604 --> 01:45:50.787
sharing that with people,

01:45:51.507 --> 01:45:52.869
trying to expand it as much as we

01:45:52.909 --> 01:45:54.972
can and keep it up to date and

01:45:55.654 --> 01:45:58.377
really promoting it to people in

01:45:58.438 --> 01:46:01.021
organizations who can use those resources

01:46:01.082 --> 01:46:03.005
because they're really fantastic

01:46:03.045 --> 01:46:03.546
resources.

01:46:06.948 --> 01:46:07.149
Yeah,

01:46:07.328 --> 01:46:09.189
I think that's all I would have to

01:46:09.289 --> 01:46:11.810
say on that topic.

01:46:11.829 --> 01:46:12.990
I know there's a lot of questions,

01:46:13.030 --> 01:46:14.091
and I just said a lot of stuff.

01:46:14.171 --> 01:46:15.311
But hopefully,

01:46:15.931 --> 01:46:18.011
that answers most of your questions.

01:46:18.372 --> 01:46:20.472
And if you have any other questions for

01:46:20.493 --> 01:46:23.833
us, let me know.

01:46:23.854 --> 01:46:25.014
I did want to add a couple things

01:46:25.054 --> 01:46:26.454
to the questions about YouTube

01:46:26.475 --> 01:46:26.994
specifically,

01:46:27.135 --> 01:46:28.314
since that's kind of what I do.

01:46:30.456 --> 01:46:32.216
They asked about upping the production

01:46:32.237 --> 01:46:32.596
quality.

01:46:35.242 --> 01:46:36.483
I'm not under the delusion that we have

01:46:36.523 --> 01:46:37.644
the best production quality.

01:46:37.925 --> 01:46:38.826
I know in a perfect world,

01:46:38.845 --> 01:46:40.106
I would have a studio with multiple

01:46:40.127 --> 01:46:41.028
cameras and everything.

01:46:43.748 --> 01:46:44.889
And I mean this genuinely,

01:46:44.929 --> 01:46:46.170
like I'm not offended by this question.

01:46:46.949 --> 01:46:48.251
Like, what do you mean?

01:46:48.291 --> 01:46:50.110
Feel free to like offer suggestions.

01:46:50.230 --> 01:46:51.671
I can't promise we'll do them because

01:46:51.692 --> 01:46:51.912
again,

01:46:51.952 --> 01:46:54.493
we are limited by financial constraints,

01:46:54.552 --> 01:46:56.373
space constraints, equipment constraints,

01:46:56.514 --> 01:46:57.514
editing constraints.

01:46:58.555 --> 01:46:58.835
But I mean,

01:46:58.854 --> 01:47:00.414
if you have any very specific, like,

01:47:00.454 --> 01:47:01.796
you know, oh, other channels do,

01:47:01.815 --> 01:47:04.136
because honestly, that's how, at least me,

01:47:04.157 --> 01:47:05.337
that's how I learn a lot of my

01:47:05.377 --> 01:47:06.877
tricks is, you know,

01:47:06.938 --> 01:47:07.837
watching other channels.

01:47:07.858 --> 01:47:08.297
And I'm like, oh,

01:47:08.318 --> 01:47:09.378
I really like the way they do their

01:47:09.418 --> 01:47:10.658
titles or I really like the way they

01:47:10.679 --> 01:47:11.939
do their transitions or whatever.

01:47:12.760 --> 01:47:14.100
Um, so yeah,

01:47:14.140 --> 01:47:15.881
if you have any specific ideas, um,

01:47:16.161 --> 01:47:17.681
I'm personally all ears again,

01:47:17.721 --> 01:47:18.702
can't promise we'll do it.

01:47:18.761 --> 01:47:22.103
Maybe it's just, you know, um, but yeah.

01:47:22.203 --> 01:47:23.983
And then you said current videos get

01:47:24.023 --> 01:47:25.583
around one to ten K per views.

01:47:25.764 --> 01:47:26.484
And yeah, I mean,

01:47:26.583 --> 01:47:28.085
they're gonna fluctuate a lot,

01:47:28.244 --> 01:47:30.784
especially because we do so many different

01:47:30.824 --> 01:47:31.466
kinds of videos.

01:47:31.506 --> 01:47:34.145
Like we do some, uh, interview videos,

01:47:34.185 --> 01:47:35.426
we do some tutorial videos,

01:47:35.466 --> 01:47:35.947
we do some

01:47:36.496 --> 01:47:37.716
We're going to do some tutorial videos.

01:47:38.057 --> 01:47:40.060
We do some videos that are more entry

01:47:40.100 --> 01:47:42.262
level, like here's encrypted messaging.

01:47:42.743 --> 01:47:44.324
And our next video is going to be

01:47:44.365 --> 01:47:46.328
a little bit, not more advanced,

01:47:46.347 --> 01:47:47.229
but it's not going to be quite so

01:47:47.309 --> 01:47:47.850
entry level.

01:47:47.909 --> 01:47:49.070
So, I mean,

01:47:50.252 --> 01:47:52.295
it's kind of a wide range of topics.

01:47:52.314 --> 01:47:53.577
So the views are going to fluctuate,

01:47:53.596 --> 01:47:53.917
but I mean...

01:47:54.917 --> 01:47:58.159
What I was taught learning YouTube is that

01:47:58.340 --> 01:48:00.100
anytime you get more views than you have

01:48:00.140 --> 01:48:00.740
subscribers,

01:48:00.780 --> 01:48:02.360
that technically counts as going viral.

01:48:02.742 --> 01:48:04.221
So considering we don't quite have ten

01:48:04.261 --> 01:48:05.103
thousand views yet,

01:48:05.542 --> 01:48:07.783
getting ten or ten thousand subscribers,

01:48:08.123 --> 01:48:09.244
getting ten thousand views,

01:48:09.284 --> 01:48:10.564
twenty thousand, thirty thousand,

01:48:10.645 --> 01:48:11.085
which I know is

01:48:13.104 --> 01:48:14.524
those are the exception but we have some

01:48:14.543 --> 01:48:16.145
videos that really racked up quite a few

01:48:16.164 --> 01:48:18.585
views and uh you know our our hope

01:48:18.625 --> 01:48:20.185
is that eventually of course someday we

01:48:20.225 --> 01:48:22.086
want to get you know a quarter of

01:48:22.105 --> 01:48:23.466
a million subscribers and we want our

01:48:23.487 --> 01:48:25.726
videos to get a million views each like

01:48:25.886 --> 01:48:28.608
we definitely want to get there but um

01:48:28.648 --> 01:48:29.908
yeah it's like jordan said here like i

01:48:29.948 --> 01:48:32.248
think we punch above our weight for sure

01:48:32.288 --> 01:48:34.408
so um just to kind of put it

01:48:34.429 --> 01:48:35.789
in context like we're still very much

01:48:35.829 --> 01:48:37.029
growing i think um

01:48:38.865 --> 01:48:39.025
Oh,

01:48:39.065 --> 01:48:40.266
and I had another thought that got away

01:48:40.306 --> 01:48:41.028
from me.

01:48:41.667 --> 01:48:42.009
Oh, yeah.

01:48:42.389 --> 01:48:44.650
Just the other thing to remember is that

01:48:45.091 --> 01:48:46.252
we are a very small team.

01:48:46.412 --> 01:48:47.472
I think with Em leaving,

01:48:47.493 --> 01:48:49.314
I don't know if I can say how

01:48:49.333 --> 01:48:50.215
many staff members there are,

01:48:50.255 --> 01:48:51.496
but there's not many.

01:48:51.796 --> 01:48:53.417
And we all wear a lot of hats.

01:48:53.578 --> 01:48:55.798
So a lot of these bigger YouTube channels,

01:48:57.240 --> 01:48:59.702
like Veritasium and Fern and stuff like

01:48:59.743 --> 01:49:03.605
that, they typically have...

01:49:04.627 --> 01:49:04.887
Like,

01:49:05.689 --> 01:49:07.492
at least one person whose sole job is

01:49:07.532 --> 01:49:09.055
to write and research and write the

01:49:09.095 --> 01:49:09.375
script.

01:49:09.775 --> 01:49:11.257
And one person whose sole job is to

01:49:11.318 --> 01:49:11.958
film the script.

01:49:12.038 --> 01:49:13.220
And one person whose sole job is to

01:49:13.360 --> 01:49:14.082
edit the script.

01:49:14.462 --> 01:49:15.984
And one person whose sole job is social

01:49:16.005 --> 01:49:16.725
media management.

01:49:17.225 --> 01:49:18.809
But, you know, here we've got...

01:49:20.310 --> 01:49:21.930
I cut most of the clips for the

01:49:21.951 --> 01:49:22.890
shorts, which, again,

01:49:22.911 --> 01:49:23.671
I haven't been doing lately.

01:49:23.690 --> 01:49:24.150
I'm sorry.

01:49:24.770 --> 01:49:26.452
But I cut most of the vertical clips

01:49:26.492 --> 01:49:26.912
and stuff.

01:49:27.072 --> 01:49:29.693
And I think Jordan and Jonah mostly handle

01:49:29.712 --> 01:49:30.453
the social media.

01:49:31.092 --> 01:49:33.094
And Jordan does most of the editing

01:49:33.134 --> 01:49:34.993
because they're just so much better at it

01:49:35.014 --> 01:49:35.354
than me.

01:49:35.394 --> 01:49:36.595
But I try to at least do the

01:49:36.614 --> 01:49:38.395
basic cuts and stuff.

01:49:38.435 --> 01:49:40.756
So just kind of keep that in mind,

01:49:42.176 --> 01:49:42.416
I guess,

01:49:42.456 --> 01:49:47.538
just that we are –

01:49:44.740 --> 01:49:45.721
I'm not trying to make excuses.

01:49:45.801 --> 01:49:48.144
I'm just saying that when I said feel

01:49:48.163 --> 01:49:49.204
free to offer suggestions,

01:49:49.564 --> 01:49:50.685
sometimes we just may not have the

01:49:50.725 --> 01:49:52.287
manpower to do something a certain way,

01:49:52.387 --> 01:49:53.649
but we definitely want to get there for

01:49:53.689 --> 01:49:53.908
sure.

01:49:54.369 --> 01:49:54.609
I mean,

01:49:55.850 --> 01:49:57.532
we talk every week about growth and what

01:49:57.551 --> 01:49:58.913
our strategies are and what we can do

01:49:58.953 --> 01:50:01.416
next to get the message of privacy out

01:50:01.456 --> 01:50:01.956
to more people.

01:50:02.676 --> 01:50:03.597
Yeah.

01:50:03.677 --> 01:50:03.877
Yeah.

01:50:03.938 --> 01:50:06.701
Some of those YouTube channels you

01:50:06.720 --> 01:50:08.122
mentioned, I think they're definitely...

01:50:09.582 --> 01:50:11.682
misleading not in like a malicious way but

01:50:11.722 --> 01:50:12.884
just like i don't think a lot of

01:50:12.904 --> 01:50:16.104
people understand there there's huge teams

01:50:16.125 --> 01:50:18.426
behind them i mean the ones that you

01:50:18.466 --> 01:50:20.787
mentioned fair tasium fern like they've

01:50:21.167 --> 01:50:22.988
they've got more than one person working

01:50:23.009 --> 01:50:24.350
on all of those things they got multiple

01:50:24.390 --> 01:50:26.230
editors they're doing they're doing like

01:50:26.310 --> 01:50:29.252
multiple animators uh people don't think

01:50:29.292 --> 01:50:30.472
about that because i think a lot of

01:50:30.493 --> 01:50:33.194
people just think about the person on the

01:50:33.213 --> 01:50:35.074
screen on a youtube channel doing

01:50:35.095 --> 01:50:36.475
everything and that is definitely not the

01:50:36.515 --> 01:50:37.657
case for those larger channels

01:50:38.356 --> 01:50:41.119
um but yeah definitely open to suggestions

01:50:41.159 --> 01:50:42.921
on what we can do i wouldn't i

01:50:42.940 --> 01:50:44.502
wouldn't rule anything out so let me know

01:50:44.563 --> 01:50:48.567
what you like to see um i don't

01:50:48.587 --> 01:50:54.832
wanna like uh i don't wanna we're i'm

01:50:54.851 --> 01:50:56.434
not under any delusions that we're making

01:50:56.474 --> 01:50:57.994
like perfect videos but i do think that

01:50:58.015 --> 01:50:59.337
our videos are pretty good and i think

01:50:59.377 --> 01:51:01.257
that a lot of what we can do

01:51:01.578 --> 01:51:03.439
uh maybe better comes down to

01:51:04.341 --> 01:51:06.320
marketing those videos and somehow finding

01:51:06.381 --> 01:51:09.002
out like the best way to work within

01:51:10.402 --> 01:51:12.283
the algorithms and stuff to get it out

01:51:12.323 --> 01:51:13.823
to more people and there's certainly

01:51:13.842 --> 01:51:15.563
improvements we could make there whether

01:51:15.603 --> 01:51:17.224
it's with the script or whether it's just

01:51:17.283 --> 01:51:21.484
with titles and thumbnails um but i don't

01:51:21.505 --> 01:51:25.145
think the quality is that bad um

01:51:25.966 --> 01:51:27.666
personally and i think that

01:51:29.505 --> 01:51:30.645
I think that we're set up pretty well

01:51:30.685 --> 01:51:32.608
to get a lot more views in the

01:51:32.627 --> 01:51:33.389
future, thankfully.

01:51:33.849 --> 01:51:36.971
And we're also almost at ten thousand

01:51:36.992 --> 01:51:37.731
subscribers.

01:51:37.972 --> 01:51:41.916
Probably could be as early as tomorrow or

01:51:41.956 --> 01:51:44.278
next week based on how these numbers are

01:51:44.297 --> 01:51:44.498
going.

01:51:44.538 --> 01:51:45.680
So that's exciting stuff.

01:51:46.579 --> 01:51:47.862
Yeah, I'm super excited for that.

01:51:48.101 --> 01:51:49.162
That's going to be a big milestone for

01:51:49.203 --> 01:51:49.262
me.

01:51:50.855 --> 01:51:51.136
Also,

01:51:52.016 --> 01:51:55.037
Seas said that it's World of Warships

01:51:55.078 --> 01:51:56.099
sponsoring everybody now.

01:51:56.158 --> 01:51:56.918
So we need to look into that.

01:51:56.939 --> 01:51:57.118
We'll see.

01:51:57.139 --> 01:52:03.061
All right.

01:52:03.783 --> 01:52:04.762
I'm going to scroll back up to the

01:52:04.802 --> 01:52:05.483
top here.

01:52:05.804 --> 01:52:07.784
It's been a little bit of a quieter

01:52:08.284 --> 01:52:08.784
week.

01:52:10.845 --> 01:52:11.525
But let's see here.

01:52:11.567 --> 01:52:12.707
We talked about ships.

01:52:16.009 --> 01:52:17.288
Somebody asked about age verification.

01:52:17.328 --> 01:52:18.390
We talked about that.

01:52:21.768 --> 01:52:23.109
I know there were some questions.

01:52:23.128 --> 01:52:24.711
I just have to go find them.

01:52:24.871 --> 01:52:25.212
Oh, yeah.

01:52:25.452 --> 01:52:27.514
Jordan mentioned, not really a question,

01:52:27.554 --> 01:52:28.655
but here in the US,

01:52:29.176 --> 01:52:30.497
if emails are more than a hundred and

01:52:30.537 --> 01:52:31.139
eighty days old,

01:52:31.158 --> 01:52:32.340
they don't require a warrant.

01:52:34.137 --> 01:52:34.278
Um,

01:52:34.358 --> 01:52:36.458
so this is one of the reasons that

01:52:36.500 --> 01:52:37.841
we encourage, uh,

01:52:37.921 --> 01:52:39.542
encrypted email providers like Proton and

01:52:39.561 --> 01:52:40.502
Tudor and mailbox.

01:52:41.103 --> 01:52:43.324
If you turn on mailbox guard and, um,

01:52:43.645 --> 01:52:46.966
use that is because if you've got Gmail

01:52:46.987 --> 01:52:48.788
or Yahoo or whoever it's,

01:52:48.908 --> 01:52:49.748
I forget what it's called,

01:52:49.769 --> 01:52:51.310
but it's basically this legal doctrine

01:52:51.350 --> 01:52:53.591
where the government treats your emails as

01:52:53.612 --> 01:52:54.412
abandoned property,

01:52:54.453 --> 01:52:56.755
which is completely insane because like,

01:52:57.734 --> 01:52:58.015
I'm sure,

01:52:58.055 --> 01:52:59.256
especially those of us who are older,

01:52:59.336 --> 01:53:00.756
you probably have like, I don't know,

01:53:01.478 --> 01:53:02.599
letters from, okay,

01:53:02.679 --> 01:53:03.498
using me as an example,

01:53:03.599 --> 01:53:06.440
I was in bootcamp and my family sent

01:53:06.461 --> 01:53:07.082
me a lot of letters.

01:53:07.181 --> 01:53:08.042
I used to be in the military.

01:53:08.182 --> 01:53:10.783
And so if I had kept those letters,

01:53:10.904 --> 01:53:11.625
I'm sure my mom did,

01:53:12.005 --> 01:53:13.126
if I kept those letters and put them

01:53:13.145 --> 01:53:14.327
in a shoebox in the closet,

01:53:14.726 --> 01:53:15.868
now that I've been out for over a

01:53:15.927 --> 01:53:16.307
decade,

01:53:16.448 --> 01:53:17.988
I don't think anybody would be like, yeah,

01:53:18.010 --> 01:53:18.750
those are abandoned.

01:53:18.789 --> 01:53:19.090
Like, no,

01:53:19.130 --> 01:53:20.251
those are my memories sitting there.

01:53:20.310 --> 01:53:21.452
Like, it's completely insane.

01:53:21.511 --> 01:53:23.814
But if you use an encrypted provider,

01:53:23.894 --> 01:53:24.134
then-

01:53:25.131 --> 01:53:26.403
The cops can't access it anyway,

01:53:26.443 --> 01:53:27.210
so it's a moot point.

01:53:32.099 --> 01:53:33.779
Jordan asked if we saw that the FBI

01:53:33.819 --> 01:53:35.020
director's email got hacked.

01:53:35.320 --> 01:53:37.061
I did see that on social media.

01:53:37.983 --> 01:53:40.123
I didn't have a chance to read the

01:53:40.144 --> 01:53:40.344
story.

01:53:40.363 --> 01:53:41.404
I just saw it this morning,

01:53:41.444 --> 01:53:43.905
but I saw that that had showed up,

01:53:43.945 --> 01:53:45.266
and I saw a lot of jokes about

01:53:45.346 --> 01:53:45.466
it.

01:53:45.686 --> 01:53:45.886
Like,

01:53:46.127 --> 01:53:48.088
his password is probably cash with a

01:53:48.149 --> 01:53:49.930
dollar sign and stuff like that.

01:53:53.231 --> 01:53:54.573
Yeah,

01:53:54.592 --> 01:53:57.734
I believe it's just his personal email,

01:53:57.753 --> 01:53:58.375
which probably...

01:54:00.613 --> 01:54:00.792
I mean,

01:54:00.832 --> 01:54:02.213
I don't think it's like a threat to

01:54:02.234 --> 01:54:02.713
the government,

01:54:02.753 --> 01:54:06.375
but it is probably a pretty embarrassing

01:54:06.494 --> 01:54:09.416
reason for him because I would imagine he

01:54:13.677 --> 01:54:15.458
I'd imagine he's using a major service

01:54:15.498 --> 01:54:19.300
like Google or Apple iCloud that

01:54:21.175 --> 01:54:22.654
doesn't have security issues,

01:54:22.875 --> 01:54:25.015
so it was probably more of an OPSEC

01:54:25.055 --> 01:54:27.716
failure from the director of the FBI that

01:54:27.737 --> 01:54:36.259
caused this rather than any service issue.

01:54:36.319 --> 01:54:36.418
Yeah,

01:54:36.479 --> 01:54:40.020
I haven't read that article myself either,

01:54:40.699 --> 01:54:40.859
but...

01:54:42.921 --> 01:54:45.667
Yeah, it doesn't look promising.

01:54:45.768 --> 01:54:47.612
I haven't heard a lot of like what's

01:54:47.832 --> 01:54:50.599
in the emails, anything yet.

01:54:50.639 --> 01:54:51.381
So I don't know if they're going to

01:54:51.400 --> 01:54:52.302
parse through it, but.

01:54:54.082 --> 01:54:56.224
So that came in like last minute today.

01:54:56.243 --> 01:54:57.984
I think yeah this article from the

01:54:58.003 --> 01:54:59.904
Guardian says it was a personal gmail

01:55:00.185 --> 01:55:05.407
address and The government has also said

01:55:06.466 --> 01:55:07.787
There's no government information.

01:55:07.828 --> 01:55:08.948
It's all just personal stuff.

01:55:08.967 --> 01:55:12.689
It sounds like a lot of random pictures

01:55:12.748 --> 01:55:16.470
of them and like historical emails in the

01:55:16.489 --> 01:55:17.831
case of Google I

01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:20.501
Like there's,

01:55:20.680 --> 01:55:21.863
there's plenty of ways to protect your

01:55:21.882 --> 01:55:22.203
account.

01:55:22.262 --> 01:55:23.505
If you're going to be a Gmail user,

01:55:23.905 --> 01:55:25.247
you can have a strong password.

01:55:25.268 --> 01:55:27.952
You can have, um,

01:55:27.971 --> 01:55:30.617
the advanced protection program, uh,

01:55:30.636 --> 01:55:33.841
to call this a hack is probably

01:55:35.765 --> 01:55:38.867
not the most accurate because I would

01:55:38.907 --> 01:55:41.509
imagine there were plenty of things the

01:55:41.548 --> 01:55:44.189
director of the FBI could do to secure

01:55:45.109 --> 01:55:45.649
his data.

01:55:47.411 --> 01:55:50.171
It probably wasn't like getting into the

01:55:50.212 --> 01:55:52.193
mainframe of Google servers or anything

01:55:52.212 --> 01:55:52.552
like that.

01:55:52.573 --> 01:55:55.914
It was probably pretty mundane.

01:55:55.935 --> 01:55:57.814
But what can you expect from the current

01:55:58.416 --> 01:55:58.895
government?

01:56:04.560 --> 01:56:11.364
Yeah, right.

01:56:11.444 --> 01:56:12.765
Let's see here.

01:56:13.225 --> 01:56:18.689
Okay, I'm catching up to the front now.

01:56:23.277 --> 01:56:25.958
Yeah, I think that was all for questions.

01:56:25.979 --> 01:56:27.139
I thought there was another one.

01:56:27.279 --> 01:56:28.819
Oh, yes, here it is.

01:56:28.960 --> 01:56:29.621
Anonymous,

01:56:30.180 --> 01:56:32.381
fourteen sixty five said that there should

01:56:32.402 --> 01:56:33.703
be a section on the website for router

01:56:33.722 --> 01:56:34.162
scenarios.

01:56:34.243 --> 01:56:35.304
I have no idea how to set one

01:56:35.363 --> 01:56:36.564
up or be private for it.

01:56:37.104 --> 01:56:39.846
The problem with detailed tutorials about

01:56:39.886 --> 01:56:40.046
like,

01:56:40.087 --> 01:56:41.488
here's how to get started and here's how

01:56:41.528 --> 01:56:44.248
to do it is they get really outdated

01:56:44.310 --> 01:56:45.029
really fast.

01:56:45.890 --> 01:56:48.271
And so it would almost turn into like

01:56:48.292 --> 01:56:50.052
a full time job just trying to keep

01:56:51.265 --> 01:56:56.208
these tutorials current and, um, yeah,

01:56:56.649 --> 01:56:56.809
I mean,

01:56:56.828 --> 01:56:57.869
just trying to keep them current and

01:56:57.890 --> 01:56:58.990
keeping on top of like, oh,

01:56:59.011 --> 01:57:00.891
the UI changed and this options over here

01:57:00.931 --> 01:57:02.092
and they added this new option.

01:57:02.113 --> 01:57:04.953
And so, um, yeah,

01:57:05.054 --> 01:57:06.694
we do want to do some tutorials in

01:57:06.715 --> 01:57:07.155
the future.

01:57:07.636 --> 01:57:08.676
I think I mentioned that earlier,

01:57:08.737 --> 01:57:09.877
but it's, uh,

01:57:09.936 --> 01:57:11.177
it's definitely a bit of a challenge to

01:57:11.198 --> 01:57:11.717
figure out.

01:57:13.078 --> 01:57:13.198
It's,

01:57:13.279 --> 01:57:15.140
it's a challenge to keep them as evergreen

01:57:15.180 --> 01:57:15.820
as possible.

01:57:17.965 --> 01:57:18.425
Yeah.

01:57:18.725 --> 01:57:19.666
I wouldn't rule it out.

01:57:21.627 --> 01:57:23.488
But yeah,

01:57:23.688 --> 01:57:25.208
we've been talking about doing something

01:57:25.229 --> 01:57:26.009
like that for a while.

01:57:29.310 --> 01:57:31.532
Which, I mean, just among the volunteers,

01:57:31.591 --> 01:57:33.672
actually one of them really wants to do

01:57:33.693 --> 01:57:34.372
that eventually,

01:57:34.432 --> 01:57:37.854
but hasn't been able to yet.

01:57:37.975 --> 01:57:39.355
But hopefully we can do something like

01:57:39.395 --> 01:57:39.536
that.

01:57:48.154 --> 01:57:53.176
Jordan asked if we saw that iCloud Hide

01:57:53.216 --> 01:57:56.176
My Email was traced back to somebody after

01:57:56.197 --> 01:57:56.737
a warrant.

01:57:57.756 --> 01:57:59.256
I would imagine that's probably the case

01:57:59.337 --> 01:58:01.597
for any of these aliasing services,

01:58:01.658 --> 01:58:05.519
because that is how email works.

01:58:05.538 --> 01:58:09.060
They can typically tie it to your mailbox.

01:58:15.979 --> 01:58:20.100
yeah not yeah um most interesting story i

01:58:20.140 --> 01:58:24.042
feel like but it also involved fbi

01:58:24.082 --> 01:58:25.762
director cash patel because it was

01:58:26.122 --> 01:58:29.845
regarding an email sent to his girlfriend

01:58:30.125 --> 01:58:32.765
so a lot of cash patel stuff going

01:58:32.845 --> 01:58:34.565
on in the email space this week i

01:58:34.586 --> 01:58:41.469
don't know what's up with that it's been

01:58:41.488 --> 01:58:42.590
a busy day for him i guess

01:58:48.260 --> 01:58:49.159
I mean, at the end of the day,

01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:50.381
like that alien,

01:58:50.740 --> 01:58:52.581
the aliasing services and email in

01:58:52.621 --> 01:58:52.940
general,

01:58:52.961 --> 01:58:56.442
that's not going to apply to serious

01:58:57.061 --> 01:58:58.302
threats.

01:58:58.403 --> 01:58:59.722
Right.

01:58:59.762 --> 01:59:01.882
So it's,

01:59:02.042 --> 01:59:05.923
it's more like a spam prevention or again,

01:59:05.984 --> 01:59:06.944
kind of like the,

01:59:06.965 --> 01:59:08.564
kind of like the VPN thing.

01:59:08.645 --> 01:59:12.405
It's good to protect yourself against, uh,

01:59:12.445 --> 01:59:14.447
like mass surveillance or data brokers

01:59:14.886 --> 01:59:15.606
because.

01:59:17.179 --> 01:59:19.161
using a different email for every website

01:59:19.180 --> 01:59:22.103
that is a good protection against your

01:59:22.122 --> 01:59:23.304
accounts being correlated,

01:59:24.444 --> 01:59:25.265
among other things.

01:59:25.565 --> 01:59:27.728
But you know,

01:59:27.847 --> 01:59:29.408
it's an email aliasing service.

01:59:29.429 --> 01:59:32.110
It's not like a unique identity generator

01:59:32.131 --> 01:59:33.171
for everything on the internet.

01:59:34.353 --> 01:59:37.876
And they certainly can be linked together.

01:59:38.756 --> 01:59:41.878
That's not really what these email

01:59:41.998 --> 01:59:43.060
aliasing services are for.

01:59:48.788 --> 01:59:53.033
Yeah, for sure.

01:59:53.052 --> 01:59:55.774
I actually did remember one more question

01:59:55.795 --> 01:59:56.756
that I skipped past.

01:59:56.796 --> 01:59:58.356
I had another tab open.

01:59:58.896 --> 01:59:59.478
Where did it go?

02:00:01.618 --> 02:00:01.918
Oh yeah,

02:00:01.979 --> 02:00:03.819
so earlier when we were talking about

02:00:03.880 --> 02:00:04.560
social media,

02:00:05.060 --> 02:00:06.761
somebody asked if there was a book on

02:00:06.801 --> 02:00:07.302
the subject.

02:00:07.743 --> 02:00:09.104
And I'm assuming you mean a book on

02:00:09.123 --> 02:00:09.304
the,

02:00:09.524 --> 02:00:10.744
because we were talking about how social

02:00:10.765 --> 02:00:12.265
media is designed to be really addictive.

02:00:14.427 --> 02:00:16.009
Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana

02:00:16.029 --> 02:00:17.470
Zuboff touches on this a little bit.

02:00:17.869 --> 02:00:21.512
Not so much the design of social media

02:00:21.533 --> 02:00:23.795
itself, but just like how big tech works,

02:00:23.814 --> 02:00:25.775
what their playbook is for invading your

02:00:25.815 --> 02:00:26.036
data.

02:00:27.766 --> 02:00:30.069
Jaron Lanier has a book called Ten

02:00:30.149 --> 02:00:31.609
Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media

02:00:31.630 --> 02:00:32.411
Accounts Right Now.

02:00:32.911 --> 02:00:33.952
I have not read it personally,

02:00:34.011 --> 02:00:35.033
but I know that is one.

02:00:35.052 --> 02:00:37.414
And then a couple others I haven't heard

02:00:37.454 --> 02:00:37.555
of,

02:00:37.574 --> 02:00:39.655
but I found mentioned when I went looking

02:00:39.697 --> 02:00:42.838
for answers, Hooked by Nir Eyal,

02:00:43.720 --> 02:00:45.862
Addiction by Design by Natasha Shule,

02:00:46.362 --> 02:00:47.222
and The Shallows,

02:00:47.243 --> 02:00:48.764
What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains

02:00:48.783 --> 02:00:49.685
by Nicholas Carr.

02:00:49.864 --> 02:00:51.265
Again, have not read any of those,

02:00:51.345 --> 02:00:53.807
but those did come up when I searched

02:00:53.828 --> 02:00:54.708
that subject, so.

02:00:55.793 --> 02:00:56.835
Because when I saw that you asked that

02:00:56.854 --> 02:00:57.935
question, I was like,

02:00:58.655 --> 02:00:59.296
I know there are some,

02:00:59.315 --> 02:01:00.197
but I'm drawing a blank.

02:01:00.256 --> 02:01:06.860
So those are what I found.

02:01:11.725 --> 02:01:12.625
All righty.

02:01:13.765 --> 02:01:15.407
Last chance for questions in the chat,

02:01:15.487 --> 02:01:15.886
everyone.

02:01:15.967 --> 02:01:21.211
Otherwise, we'll start wrapping this up,

02:01:21.270 --> 02:01:21.650
I think.

02:01:22.192 --> 02:01:25.434
Got a bit more to share here, but...

02:01:32.045 --> 02:01:34.447
But yeah.

02:01:36.670 --> 02:01:39.311
I think we can close off questions here

02:01:39.332 --> 02:01:39.953
then, probably.

02:01:40.974 --> 02:01:42.034
Thanks for tuning in, everyone.

02:01:43.576 --> 02:01:45.177
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