[00:00:00] Antony W: Welcome to the Grow My Salon Business podcast, where we focus on the business side of hairdressing. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and I'll be talking to thought leaders in the hairdressing industry, discussing insightful, provocative, and inspiring ideas that matter. So get ready to learn, get ready to be challenged, get ready to be inspired, and most importantly, get ready to grow your salon business.

[00:00:29] Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and it's great to have you here with us today. I get an enormous amount of enjoyment from all of my guests on the podcast, and I also learn a lot from them too. The best way to learn is to ask questions and to be prepared to question your own beliefs and attitudes.

[00:00:57] To be vulnerable, to listen,

[00:01:00] to be open, honest, tolerant, and to be prepared to broaden your own perspective and above all to be receptive to change. This year in particular, an area that I and many others have learned more about is the issues around race and as hairdressers, the direct impact that that has in terms of the training we get, the products we use, and the services we offer, particularly around textured hair.

[00:01:27] On today's podcast, my guest is the wonderful Mahogany Plautz, and amongst the many hats she wears is that of a hairdresser, former suite owner, and a self-titled hair historian and activist, and an educator for John Paul Mitchell Systems, as well as a mother and a wife and many other things. This episode was originally done as part of a series of live video recordings for Paul Mitchell, but I decided to repurpose it for the podcast as it's a great conversation.

[00:01:58] Originally, it went out on

[00:02:00] Facebook and YouTube, and so if you'd rather watch the video, just head on over to my YouTube channel at Grow My Salon Business and watch it there. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Mahogany.

[00:02:13] Mahogany P: Thank you so much, Anthony. I'm so happy to be here. [00:02:17] Antony W: Good. I've been practicing my Plautz several times. So [00:02:21] Mahogany P: I mean,
[00:02:21] Antony W: I'm glad I've got it right, .

[00:02:22] Mahogany P: It was perfect. It was perfect. That was exactly how it's pronounced. It's a tricky one...
 
[00:02:28] Antony W: Yeah, it is a little Linda. Okay, so, just to give the next, 45 minutes or so some context, could you introduce yourself by way of giving us your sort of two minute backstory, about who you are, where you've come from, et cetera. And then we can dig in and start talking about a very wide range of, of things that, relate to you and your life as a hairdresser.

[00:02:50] Mahogany P: Absolutely. hi everybody. I, let's see. I've been a hairdresser for about 22 years, and I think one of my favorite things about being a hairdresser is like the opportunities

[00:03:00] that I have to like, hang out with so many different people, right? Like I absolutely get to get art and business and all of that, but it's all rolled up in like how I spend time with people. And that to me, I think has been really important. So I started my career, after I finished beauty school. I spent an entire year training under, one stylist. So I really got the benefit of someone who had been doing hair for a long time. so I got the benefit of not just understanding how it is that we cut color in style, but like how to run a business and how to run my chair. And I think that. So that was really huge for me as I moved into then going on to rent my own chair, own my own suite, deciding to be an educator, doing my own types of education. It really helped me to have like agency over everything that was mine to do. I also am a mom. I have a 12 year old and a 15 year old. They're both super weird and hilarious and so it's a joy being their mom most days, I'll be honest, most days,

[00:03:57] Antony W: I can relate to that , [00:03:59] Mahogany P: right? so it's,
[00:04:00] live in Minneapolis and I think one of the things that I love about Minneapolis is like right now it's fall and it is gorgeous. Like we have so much green foliage and we love to go out and hike. And run around on bikes and roller skate. fun fact about me, I used to be in the roller derby, so I used to beat up other girls on roller skates, which was pretty fun. And I think that's, I've never been one to just sit and chill. I'm always on the go. There's always something to do. Whether it's traveling as an educator for Paul Mitchell or traveling with my family out to like remote islands in Canada. I think that, it's all about just like seizing life and having the fun that you can have and balancing out as much of your work and life as you possibly can. Balance is a myth to me, but I think, I feel like finding a good rhythm depending on, where we are in our lives, I think is the most important piece. So I'm excited.

[00:04:50] Antony W: Yeah. . Cool. Okay. I think that's really important, what you just said about balance. A lot of people talk about that, don't they, life balance and it says such a thing, it's I think rhythm, finding the right rhythm that

[00:05:00] works for you is, is a good way to put that. so I'm intrigued about your story into hairdressing. what was that journey? how did you find yourself in this industry?
 
[00:05:10] Mahogany P I've been in salons since I was very small. My nana's best friend was a hairdresser. One of my mom's best friends was a hairdresser. And because,because my hair was a sort of an anomaly for my mom. She's a beautiful Scandinavian woman from northern Minnesota, from a town of about seven, 800 people. So in the 1970s when she had me, there was not a lot, there was no YouTube, there was no natural hair community. There was no like, information for her to go to. So some of the struggles that my mom and I had with our hair ended up really becoming some great defining ways of how our relationship, grew.

[00:05:44] But I think what it did too was it also made me very aware of like how I was treated when I went into certain salons. It made me very aware of what the capabilities of my hair. Like it felt really limiting. but, so I think I ended up deciding to go to beauty school because

[00:06:00] I didn't want to feel that way anymore. I almost went to beauty school to find out how to take care of my own hair, because we didn't. , the same education that we have now. And we didn't have the same goals that we do now with, reaching, straight, wavy, curly, and extra curly hair. So for me, that was really the biggest why. And I enjoyed beauty school. I was a little bit older when I went to beauty school. I was like 23, not, fresh outta high school or anything. So I had some goals in mind. So I think that going into beauty school with some goals of, I wanted, I was working in a salon as a receptionist and I would stand behind the owner all the time and ask him, I'd be like, Steven, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? And finally he just turned and he was like, go to school, dude. Just go to school. And so I did. And it was awesome. It was really cool. And when I finished up, I spent a whole year, like I said, spending that time working with. him, but also working and learning about the other stylists inin the chairs around me and seeing how they each developed their own

[00:07:00] personality there was times Antony where there would be folks who would come in and I would know just from their haircut, like whose chair they sat in. . So they were, it was cool to see all the different personalities, craft their own art in the same salon and have it be cohesive and cool and interesting, but like very much individuals. So I feel really lucky about not only just the owner that I worked for, but like the entire community of Salon. It was like my salon family was really special to me.

[00:07:29] Antony W: Yeah. Okay. was it predominantly a black hair salon or predominantly a white hair salon or,

[00:07:34] Mahogany P: yeah, predominantly it was a white salon I worked in, I was the only black person who worked in that salon and so there was some interesting there was some really cool and really amazing things. I think one of the things that was awesome was that, when you're in beauty school, we really learn most of our hair cutting techniques and trainings and all that on straight hair. So when I was coming in, I was able to build my clientele in this salon because I was really familiar with the textures that I was working on.

[00:08:00] But, there was times where, people would call, I like, I have a long time friend in client Katana who has the first time she called the salon, she was like, do you have anybody
 
who can work with black hair? And the salon, the salon, Receptionist answer. And she was like, yeah, we do blue, we do green, we do purple. Like we do all the colors, Browns, reds, all that. And she was like, nah, hang on. do you have someone who can work with black people's hair? And she was like, oh yeah, Mahogany . So it was awesome because, it turned a moment that, that, that can be a challenge for a lot of, black women who are looking for stylists all over the world. Like when you are looking for a salon that you wanna go to, that is like maybe in your neighborhood, or maybe you've heard friends, love it and you wanna be able to go there. Sometimes it can be intimidating to call and have to say, do you do black hair? Which I think is, it's, that's another goal I see moving, moving forward. There's so many more salon who are looking for that education right now. So I think it's really beautiful that we're taking these moments and evolving

[00:09:00] them into anyone should be able to go to any place and get their hair done. in, in most ways. you should be able to get a cut, you should be able to get a color, you should be able to get a style. Now there's definitely specialty things like locks and braids and twists and protective styles and those types of things that may not be for every stylist, but I think, if you're a cutter, you should be able to cut all the hair. And if you're a colorist, you should be able to color all the hair. And, I think that's something that has been really, like something that I have been navigating a lot because most of the salons that I have worked in have been predominantly white salons. The salon that I work in now is pretty mixed, and I really love that, because we get to see all different kind of cultures, walking in and out of the salon, and that's really beautiful and it can be really fun to be inspired by.

[00:09:42] yeah. that's a really interesting thing, what you were just talking about then, because. . I know especially in the last couple of years, there's been such a emphasis put on everyone should be able to do everything in terms of, different hair types, work with different hair and a client should be able to go into any

[00:10:00] salon and get, his or her hair done. And I'm, I wanna throw a different, perspective on that. I, yes, I agree, but at the same time I go, eh, I'm not sure because, as a hairdresser, I'm a hairdresser, but I cut hair. I don't color hair. I've never colored hair. . And some people will be shocked by that. I've never been, I've never done bridal here. , I've never, rarely put hair up. Now, a lot of this is my heritage, where I worked, where I came from, that, that was what those salons assumed was all about, that you either cut or you colored. At one point they had cutters, colorist and tints. not, permers sorry.

[00:10:37] Antony W: So you either cut you colored or you permed in the seventies when I started there in the, at the very end of the seventies, they merged the tints and the permers became one thing. So you were a technician or you were a stylist and. . It was a, so my training, my background was always about cutting hair. But in interestingly, and this was in the very

[00:11:00] early eighties, in London, at Sassoon, you had to present a selection of models before you could go onto the floor, after you had your test, et cetera. And you had to show at least one black model, which is great. Okay? But here's the funny thing, you'll laugh about this, right? Every model, do you know what they were? Grace Jones baby coming down,
 
coming down. Every, everyone was like Grace Jones flat top. Do you know what I mean? From that sort of eighties look, and it was a really good discipline to work visually with hair because of that tight, textured, Afro hair. and so everyone would just cut. you just had always, it was like, there's Grace Jones in the corner sort of thing. and it was good. . but people were pushed outta their comfort zone to do that. But I suppose what I'm saying to you is this, from a discrimination point of view, I totally agree. You should be able to go into any salon anywhere and get whatever you want. I totally get that. But

[00:12:00] if you compare it to a restaurant, that's my favorite go-to analogy. It's like a restaurant does Mexican, or they do Italian, or they do French, or they do Vietnamese. They all do food. Like we all do hair. But if you go to a restaurant that does, French, Italian, Vietnamese,Spanish and Greek food, I would probably leave really quickly because it means they do that. They're not a master of any of them. And so I often think about the hair context, and I want you to talk to me about this. I want you to think about hair in that context because, I, I. I'm about specialization and I know a lot of people are about specialization, but I totally get your background and where you come from.

[00:12:45] you mentioned your mum was Scandinavian, so fine, soft, probably dead straight hair. Your hair yes is fine and soft, but very different, So really, so I know you that all your life you've been

[00:13:00] exposed to a lot more diversity about working with different textures and stuff. so talk to me about what I just said about that, about specialization and whether I'm right, wrong, how does that fit in?

[00:13:11] Mahogany P: Absolutely. I don't know that I would say you're right or you're wrong. I feel like perspectives are so unique and I think that's what makes people, no matter where we come from really special. And I think that's why I like to remain super open about these things. But from my perspective, I will say that I do think that. , yes. It would be strange to have so many different like foods in a restaurant, but everybody's welcome to that restaurant, right? So like when I think about cutting, for example, if you are a cutter, like if that's your specialization, like if you cook Italian, like you better cook Italian, right? that is, it's not just one. It's not just spaghetti. there's a lot of different aspects to those different, Food, ethnicities,

[00:14:00] right? Those food [00:14:00] Antony W: yeah.
[00:14:01] Mahogany P: Spaces. So I think when sometimes we can be limiting our own selves, I think one of the best things that happened, we did these really great trainings, these really great texture trainings within, our top educator group of Paul Mitchell. And what was awesome was some of the feedback that we received from some of our stylists who had not had a lot of experience with tight, curly hair was that by learning tight, curly hair, like learning some of the styling techniques, some of the thought process and how you would weave a color differently based on the curl pattern because that curl pattern grows out and
 
up rather than just straight down and it falls differently. They actually were expanded not just in curly hair, not just in coily hair, but they were expanded and they felt that they were, they better understood why, the why behind why they were doing things with straighter and wavy hair too. So I think it's not necessarily about, . I think it, it really is just about expanding what you're already specializing in. So you're specializing in co, you're

[00:15:00] specializing in color, you're specializing in style, but expanding that now. Definitely. I think, I think I said this earlier, I think it's really important that we recognize that there are folks who are going to be, looking for specifically like black salons. And I think that's Abso or black stylists. And I think that is an absolutely wonderful thing because that's a, that's just a community space. That's a safe space. that's a comradery space that's there's, it's a vibe, right? it's just, it's a whole vibe. But I think that also, , limiting a customer, limiting a guest to you can only go to this sort of space. it is it, they say that, church and salons are the la, the most segregated places here, at least in the United States for sure.

[00:15:40] and I think we have room to grow. I don't think it's necessarily like a shame on us. I think it's really like a, what's our opportunity to grow? What's our opportunity to look at how we. how we view our customers and how we view that base. And I think that for me, when I look at, when I'm cra crafting a class,

[00:16:00] like I really like to look at, okay, so I'm gonna teach this hair cutting style, but I wanna teach it. , I wanna show you what are the adjustments? if I'm teaching a curly cut, what are the adjustments? If they wanna wear their hair straight, if I'm teaching a straight cut, what are their, what are the adjustments? If their hair's wavy, what kind of, would you use a different wide tooth, wider tooth comb? If it was curly, would you use less tension? Where was your, what's your elevation looking like? Because that's not just teaching you a new cool haircut that's also teaching you like to expand your thought process on how you cut. You know what I mean?

[00:16:31] . Okay. Yeah. No, good. I'm liking what you're saying. it's also, it is really interesting when you take a big picture, overview of humanity.

[00:16:39] Antony W: in that, if you go back, I don't know, a hundred years ago isn't very long, but go back a hundred years ago. And it's funny enough, I was just thinking this when I was watching TV this morning,in here in, in London looking at this particular guy who was running to become the mayor of some city.

[00:16:56] Antony W: And he had a turban on, and

[00:17:00] it's, and I was saying to my wife, you've got an English accent, but he is got a turban, and he was, I'm not gonna, I'm not sure, where he was originally or where his family came from. , suppose what I'm saying to you is, a hundred years ago, you would never have seen that. And now the world has become a very diverse melting pot of people. So here's the interesting thing. if you take that the next stage and you go, wow, it's done that within a hundred years, you are an example of this and your kids are, an example of this is that if you go back a hundred years ago or 200 years ago, whatever it was, there was a lot more. You
 
were black or you were white. There wasn't a whole lot going on in the middle. And you look at America now, America is what? The whole world is a great melting pot. So what will people look like in a hundred years time, like as the average? Do you know what I mean?
Because there'll be less pure, I hate even using that term, but, white,and black. There'll be more of this sort of, You

[00:18:00] have to be so careful with the wording you use, the, there'll be more sort of diversity. And that brings me to a question which I've gone completely off track with the things I was gonna talk about with you , but I think that this is really interesting because when does, because you very consciously use the word texture before talking about texture here. When does race eth ethnicity turn into texture? Because it's related to what I was just saying. is that the more like you have naturally coily hair, I'm assuming that your kids do, but are maybe less so than you. what does that, what does that look like? Is different generations morph and et cetera? so the question I wanted to ask you is that when is the point where it's not about race and ethnic ethnicity, that it is just about texture? because of course I work with all sorts of textures of hair.

[00:18:56] do you see what I'm trying to get to? [00:18:57] yeah, absolutely. I think you, you
[00:19:00] definitely hit it. When you say it isn't necessarily about race. the, there's there's nuance. just language and folks who are trying to, it attract different, racial ethnicities into their salons. I'm here for it. do that Absolutely.

[00:19:13] Mahogany P: , but be mindful, be mindful about that aspect.

[00:19:14] But when it comes to the tech, the technicalities of doing hair, It is about fine, medium coarse the texture.

[00:19:23] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Mahogany P: And it is about that formation. is it straight? Is it wavy? Is it curly? Is it coilly? How many different patterns do people have in their head? Yeah. I think that piece is really the most important part. And that's the place where I feel like we can all come together and really start to understand how

[00:19:38] Antony W: Yeah, definitely.

[00:19:39] Mahogany P: How servicing guests, because I think when we first launched, like the Curl Products back way, a a decade or so ago, we were talking about how the world is a probably, I think like 70% of it is wavy, curly, and tight curls, right? that's what we were looking at. So that's 70% of the world. And I think we've all, because of
 
[00:20:00] trends and, fashion and what not, we've all, I remember, I remember the nineties and trying to get my hairs bones straight. Like I wanted to have it look like I had no hair at all. I wanted it to be so close to my head, with my dark lip, like dark lip liner and my, and my lip gloss cuz I wanted to look just like the girls on the videos, right? I wanted to look like she was so cute. And so for me that was so that, that trend was really cool and awesome, but it also loved me very feeling like I had to put so much more work, so much more time, so much more energy, so much more money into making that trend. And so as we see these trends evolve, I think it's less about one specific look where one specific texture, like we just taught a training and it was awesome because we really used a lot of different, textures within our fall trend report to, to showcase the color and the cut and like the inspirations that people were having from Italy, from Australia, from U the, from the here in the US. And it was

[00:21:00] awesome because we could do each one of those cuts. Colors and styles on straight hair, wavy hair, curly hair, and coilly hair. But it was just about the adjustment piece of it. So moving forward, I really do see a lot more education being focused on like a bob, a chin-length bob, a square, chin length bob. But how do you adjust it for this, yeah, this and this. And I think that o only benefit a hairdresser.

[00:21:24] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Let me ask you a question about that. would you do that to your hair now?

[00:21:30] Mahogany P: Straighten my hair? [00:21:31] Antony W: Yeah.
[00:21:32] Mahogany P: No . Okay. No. It's not like an, it's not first of all, I love a relaxer. I'm not mad at relaxers. do 'em well do 'em right. Your hair healthy, Yeah. People have choices and I'm not mad at them. The reason that I wouldn't do it is because it's too much work for me. It's just too much work. Okay. And my husband told me that, like he's never had an opinion about my hair. I remember one time I left with short hair. I left the house with short hair and came home with, like waist length, green braids. And he didn't even notice. Like he didn't,

[00:22:00] he was just like, Hey. And I was like, you see something different here? And he was like, oh yeah, baby hair is really long and it's green. Wow. So there's not a lot of, I don't get a lot of that. But the one I, we did talk and I said, what's the one thing that you are just like, nah. And he's miss me with the straight hair. it just, it doesn't suit me. But that doesn't mean it doesn't suit, A lot of other people, I do silk presses in the salon. It's important that people have that versatility because I think it's about the individual. No matter what race you are, it is about that individual. And I think because it doesn't matter what race you are, you should be able to, express your hair in, in ways that make you feel like your best self, with

[00:22:42] Antony W: Yeah, I agree. Yeah,
 
[00:22:43] and love with for yourself, I think, and understanding how it's presented. You do have to like, make those choices for yourself and I think it's something that we all deserve, for sure.

[00:22:54] Antony W: Yeah. I 100% agree, but I was reflecting if that's the right word,

[00:23:00] on, why you did that as a kid, young person growing up. Would you do it now? Answer, no. . And one of the things that you'll sometimes hear people talk about is here you are with your locks and we'll talk about locks later on. and they look great. You look great with them. But if I had locks and I was walking down the street in certain parts of London,certain parts of anywhere, I imagine I would be confronted by someone saying that is cultural appropriation.

[00:23:31] Mahogany P: Absolutely.

[00:23:32] that you shouldn't be doing that. And I get confused about that because it's what we just said. If I feel like I want locks because I think they look great, then that's what I want. and like why is that cultural appropriation, which I think it is.

[00:23:51] Mahogany P: Yeah. Okay. ,

[00:23:53] Antony W: but straightening here into a little bob for a black lady isn't [00:23:58] Mahogany P: that's a good question.
[00:24:00] Antony W: Do you see what I mean? and I don't care one way or the other. I'm just, I just get a bit confused about that. I know I was talking to you once about a friend of mine, here, very good friend of mine, who's black. And if I say the wrong thing around her, I get my head ripped off . And this would be a great example of getting my head ripped off with this conversation. So I'm glad that you are so open to talking about that. so talk to me about that, because I love looking at a good silk press. I think it looks fantastic. what are your thoughts about what I've said to you. .

[00:24:32] Mahogany P: Well, I think that, so for, we'll start with the locks first. first and foremost, I think when we think about locks, yes, they do show up in a lot of different cultures and they show up in a lot of different ways. But I think the challenge, and like one of the things, part of the reason that I consider myself like a hair historian and activist is because I've done a lot of research about where locks come from and how they. How they've evolved and specifically when it comes to black people, because in, for sure in the

[00:25:00] United States, we have the Crown Act, right? That's, that is, just really, truly trying to put legislation in place for black folks to not con, not be discriminated against because of their hair. PS it's really sad that we have to do this, but I'm really excited about the Crown Act because the Crown Act really does help to not only just shed a light on it, but also to give education. Yeah. So for me, I think when we think about the reason that it would be that
 
maybe your friend would have a challenge with you saying that I want locks or, that type of thing would be, because there are still so many people like myself with locks who get discriminated against, who aren't able to, attend schools who aren't able to, wrestle in a, in a wrestling match when there was a story of a young man who had to have his hair cut by his teammates and his coaches because the judge wouldn't let him wrestle and he won his, he won too. I was like, yes, honey, you, but it was so sad, and I won't lie. When I watched the video, I had a very, I had

[00:26:00] a very like, visceral reaction to watching these people cut this child's hair. So he could wrestle. it's ridiculous. He had a cap on. Yeah. He would not, it's not like it was, if anything, it would've been a harder thing for him to manage because he would've had that, somebody would've had something to grab onto anyways.

[00:26:16] Antony W: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[00:26:17] Mahogany P: Discrimination piece. The discrimination piece is largely placed upon black folks when it comes to just the way our hair grows out of our head. So that's where I see that lock that, that the locks aspect of it and the braids and that type of thing. Like specific like box braids and cornrows, like those have a rich history that, that have helped, black Americans stay connected to where we came from. , even though we don't necessarily know exactly where we came from. So there's,

[00:26:48] Antony W: yeah.

[00:26:48] Mahogany P: Yeah. And there's still learning and there's still movement and there's still growing and there's a serious possibility that I will look back on this interview in 10 years and be like, Mahogany. Wow. What have you learned since then? And I think that's the key

[00:27:00] to keep learning. Yeah. But as far as why like straightening, black folks straightening their hair or wearing wigs and weaves and that type of thing, that gives that straight look why it is not cultural appropriation is because it was, again, we'll go back to that historical piece. When black folks were brought to America, the first thing that happened was they had their head shaved.

[00:27:21] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:27:22] Mahogany P: Their head shaved. And they said it was for cleanliness. . also that's a very dehumanizing thing if that's not something that you're choosing to do for yourself.
Totally. Totally.

[00:27:29] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:27:29] Mahogany P: So then you know it, there is during. during slavery. there was a lot of rules placed upon what you looked like, and it wasn't because they wanted to just make
 
sure you were happy. It was like people started, slave owners were started to, started being judged based on how their enslaved people looked. So there were these more rules heaped upon these people to look a certain way and then,

[00:27:59] Antony W: yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:00] during the Jim Crow era when we, when black people were free here in the United States, it was. , how do you get these jobs? And certain, like the most of the jobs that folks were trying to get at that time, there, and to be fair, there was a lot of people doing a lot of really amazing things. And a lot of people just had to do certain things to survive. So they would have to go work in these white houses, right? and the people who were hiring them were looking for a certain thing. They were, again, taking on the I identity of the person that they worked that they worked for. So they needed to have their hair smoother in order to gain access to jobs and money. And some people also, on the other side of it, some people were really just they wanted to be as far removed from slavery with the, like the tw the, the quote unquote nappy hair, right? they wanted to move past that and see themselves differently. And so the evolution of that really truly is. ,

[00:29:00] we were told to straighten our hair. Some people were told to straighten our hair because that's how we were gonna be accepted. It was all about assimilation. and we're, there's beauty in that because again, it took, it took innovation to a whole new level in black hair, which was really beautiful. but sometimes I think it's, it would be really nice for black folks, for me to see innovation. Not out of necessity, but just out of like inspiration. And I think that, so when I see a beautiful silk press, I don't see someone trying to be white. I just see them like taking what was something that was expected of them to be presentable. And now it's something that just expresses a different aspect of their personality.

[00:29:46] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Got it. Okay. Wow, that's fantastic. I was just thinking of something that you told me last time we were talking, which, which had just came back into my head, whi, which is of related to what you're talking about now, and that is about a

[00:30:00] woman came into the salon and screamed out to you. Do you braid honey? do you do braids? Tell us about that.

[00:30:06] Mahogany P: Call me forgot knowing how to braid hair. That's so cold. .

[00:30:10] Antony W: No, I think that's good. that's a really good example. Iagain, I was thinking back to, again in the eighties. I'm old, in the middle of the eighties I went to a, two of us, we paid to go to a black salon in London. and there's these two white dudes turn up and we're going into this black salon for a day to spend a day there with them. we paid to have a training there and it was amazing. But. I just walked away thinking it was a totally different world in terms of the hair. a lot of it were cornrows and,chemical relaxed Astra. It was just, it was so foreign to how I worked and what I did. I was so full of appreciation and stuff for it. But, yeah, you made me laugh when you said that you couldn't braid. 'Cause I can at least braid , but not listen.
 
[00:30:58] Mahogany P: Hold up. Blast out. [00:30:59] Antony W: You're losing the CRI now
[00:31:01] I can braid. But I'm not so there are so many gifted braiders, like we have some really gifted braiders within our training team, like Nike Blo, watch out. Like I will watch Harry Braid all day. But I think one of the challenges is like for me, it was not something that I grew up with. And it's not something that we teach in school. or when I went to beauty school, it's not something we were teaching. Wewe were taught how to do a French braid. We were taught how to do like an or an inside out braid, that type of thing. But it was always on really straight hair. It was all on really big hair. Like we never had that focus. And the only time that I ever really had the opportunity to learn anything having to do with black folks hair was from the other peers that I had in my class, like the, yeah, Tanisha was definitely this, she was the a year or a class ahead of me, and so she was my little mentor and she was always on something, and so she taught me how to do a corn row, a horizontal cornrow so that I could sew in a weave. Sure. Yeah.

[00:32:00] But it's gonna be covered up. Nobody's gonna see it. . It's it's gonna be time do its job. It's not pretty . So like I can do that and I can box braid.

[00:32:08] yeah,

[00:32:08] growing up, like you said, I definitely had a lot of challenges with my own hair for a lot of reasons. yeah. Not just like growing up with a white mom, but like truly just I think, as I see my kids now, they're 12 and 15, so whew. there's just like hormones in life and everybody has those transitional years that are really tough. my transitional years showed up all over my hair. Like I was

[00:32:28] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:32:28] that, that was just really, you could tell that was the happening thing for me. that was the thing that was tough for me. So in like seventh grade, was it seventh grade? Yeah, seventh grade. Middle school, Worst years. one of my friends finally just was like, girl, because I had been picked on about my hair for years, Dry. Sad. I would try to have relaxers and my mom's besty totally went to classes. She did like you, she went to a different black salons throughout the Twin Cities to try to help learn about my hair. And so when Denise did my hair, it was beautiful. But when I had to do my hair,

[00:33:00] she didn't know how to teach me how to do my hair. So fast forward to seventh grade and like I'm, I have a relaxer, but it's puffy and it's dry and I don't know how to iron it properly. all of those things. And my friend Myla, she was like, let me get you together. she's I want you to go to the beauty supply store. I want you to get this grease and blue Magic. I want you to get, Thi this many packs of braiding hair number two, cuz you're not black, you just, you need, your hair is a little lighter, so you need a number two, I want you to get this comb this, And so she boxed, braided my hair back in the day we called them dookie braids,
 
which is hilarious. because they were big and thick and it was like Janet Jackson from, from Poetic Justice. it was awesome.

[00:33:38] Antony W: Got it.

[00:33:39] Mahogany P: I love, and it was the first time that I looked at myself and I was like, that's what I look like. This is what I wanna look like. I had the salt and pepper haircut back before that. I had an afro, I had a Jerry curl. I had every hair because I was trying to find myself. But when I first got my hair box braided

[00:33:56] Antony W: Yeah,

[00:33:56] , that's when I saw myself as like a person that I wanted to

[00:34:00] see myself as. Yeah. Which I think is why I've ended up with locks for so long. but it was truly, and it was not just the hair, but it was like sitting on Myla's bed, having her like grease me scalp and like section out these beautiful sections. And she had there's sacred geometry going on here cuz she had the bottom half of my head was one length, but the top half of my head was longer. So that when I wore it up in a ponytail, cuz you know, it was the late eighties, early nineties. So when I wore the top half up, half down, it would all come to the same length. I was like, yes, Myla. So then she taught me how to braid my own hair. So that was something that was like, not only did I have a beautiful style, like Denise would gimme beautiful styles, but Myla was able to teach me how to do my own hair. So she empowered me to do that. And so I spent most of my teen years, going from braids to, Twists to, all types of things. So I can do those things, but just don't ask me to do any Fulani braids with the cute tightness. I got people for that. I got references for that

[00:35:00] Antony W: Yeah, I've got it. I've got it. Okay. So yeah, it's interesting that, because thinking back to my experience going into a black salon 30 years ago, whatever it is, it was a different job. And so it full circle now with what we were talking about at the beginning. anyone should I walked out of that salon with a, with an understanding that what I'd just witnessed was so completely different to where my skillsets were. It was like a totally different job. Do you know what I mean? Working with hair like that, beautiful. But was like, that's not what I'm being made for. Just Doing color wasn't what I've been made for. Doing bridal hair isn't what I've been made for, but that's really interesting. You, we, I touched on this and I didn't really explain it. I said, we'll get to it later. And you keep saying the word locks. Yes. And,we had a little discussion before we, came on this live, and I learned something that was really intriguing. so talk to us about that. About why you refer to them as locks

[00:36:00] Mahogany P: Well, so for me, and again, this is just, this is me, right? Like there, I have a lot of black friends who say dreadlocks and dreads and, it's definitely a personal thing, but I think one of the journeys over this last few years, is I really like to learn the history behind hairstyles. Like that to me was huge. and I think that when, there's one particular book that shared a story about, when the British colony were colonizing Jamaica in particular, there were British, soldiers who had real, who were calling the locks that the
 
Jamaicans had dreadful. And so I think when you think about it like that, and also. It doesn't, this was a long time ago. We can move past these things in.

[00:36:42] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:36:43] Mahogany P but for some people it is a trigger. And so I use locks cause it doesn't cause for me, that's not triggering anyone that to me is a very accurate representation. It is a lock. but also it takes some of the pain away because I think that there are still pain points when we talk about, I

[00:37:00] mean there's just pain points for black folks when it comes to our hair because it has been so scrutinized. It has been so challenged over the years. And when a, when we think about our perspective, right? we went to beauty school, we learned these cuts, we did these things and then, if you were lucky enough to have a Tunisia in your world, you had an access to a different. Way of styling, like working with a hot comb. I had never worked with a hot comb. I didn't have a nana who did a hot comb. . That was not me. That was not my life.
. so when I got to work with Hot Combs for the first time, I was like, Ooh, but now I can hot comb anybody. Like it just took practice. Yeah. And they think that it's that willingness and that love that we have for folks to, to, to not only learn the technique. and then decide whether or not that's something you wanna do in the salon. But if you learn it and you decide you don't wanna do it, that's different than just being like, I don't need to know that. I don't need to know that, that doesn't pertain to me. Because that is excluding not only people from your salon, but that's excluding like a whole thought process from your salon

[00:38:00] that actually could benefit you as a hairdresser.

[00:38:02] and I think that part of it too is yes technique, but there's that thoughtfulness and that mindfulness about the language that we use. Language matters. It really does. Like I used the term nappy earlier and I actually feel terrible about it. Like I really, it's a gross term. it's a term that like, within black folks, we can say these things, but it is a term that I would not use under normal circumstances.

[00:38:24] there's a really good example that we both speak English. , but nappy is not a word that we use. Do you know what a nap? Do you know what a nappy is? It's a diaper.

[00:38:35] Mahogany P: It's a diaper, yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:36] Antony W: So we don't use the word diaper, like it's an, that's an Americanism diaper. we used the word nappy. So when you said it, I was like, I wonder what she means by that. Do you know what I mean? but there was an interesting thing you said, then, there's lots of interesting things you said, and you said that dread dreadlocks is a trigger. It's a painful trigger. And that is what's so important with so much of the conversation that, not just that we're having,
 
[00:39:00] but the dialogue about black hair, white hair, or black and white people, et cetera, is that there are certain words that are maybe said completely innocently, like saying dreadlocks. Who would've thought I would never, if you hadn't told me that in a million years, I would never have guessed that might have been a train, pain trigger. so thank you for, in enlightening me as to what the background of that is. we've been talking about this all the time. But we haven't even got to the bit that I was gonna talk about, which is, you call yourself a hair historian, an activist, and I suppose you've been being a hair historian, an activist for the last 30 minutes because we've just jumped straight in the deep end talking about all this stuff. we, which is great. It's fantastic. I'm loving the conversation. can I ask you, do you ever get, first of all, do you ever get tired of talking about race and secondly, what, what does a hair historian, an activist even mean?

[00:39:54] Mahogany P: Okay. So to answer your first question, absolutely. but. That

[00:40:00] is also the place that I've put myself in. it is something that is important to me because I feel like there are lots of different perspectives out there. And I think that's one of the things that I think is really important when we're talking about race is that black people are not a monolith, right? there's, we are all different. We are just as, there is not like a meeting where we all get together and we all decide like what we all think, what we all feel, how we are like, that is not real . And I think you laugh, but I swear that is like how, especially in, especially in education, when you are learning about something new and you have preconceived notions, people will ask a lot of questions that are, that, that might be like you said completely innocent in their ignorance, but it could be a trigger or a pain point for someone. So for me, when I'm in an education space, I don't get tired of talking about it. When I'm in an education space, I know that this is why I'm here, this is what it is. But finding that, that, that boundary and placing it. if we're at dinner and you wanna talk about that, I may tell you I'm

[00:41:00] not ready to talk about that. And that's for me to decide. So that part is and people need to be able to say, oh, right on. Thank you. Because it does take a lot of emotional labor. It does take a lot of like excess, energy to put forth that type Conversation. And I love that it comes in all the different ways. Like it can be light, it can be fun, it can be interesting and people, and a lot of that has to do with how it's delivered, but also how it's received. So if there's like with us, we've got this back and forth and it's really beautiful, but sometimes, people are different. Like they just deliver it in different ways. And like I love, I personally love super direct. Like when people, when I need to learn something, I love when people are very direct with me. Mahogany, that's not it. Let's look at it this way. And you're like, oh, okay. Thank you. And it's that thank you that I feel like, you were saying about your friend.

[00:41:49] The fact that she actually will say those, will talk to you about, that means that they, she cares about the friendship, right? Oh yeah. If she's, she didn't care about the friendship, she wouldn't tell you. She'd be

[00:42:00] like, oh, cool, bye Antony. , because that's what I would do if I didn't care about the friendship. I'd be like, whatever, bye. That's just your opinion. And you can go on, be
 
stupid and somebody else can teach you that lesson. But I Sure. So in the race aspect, that's where it comes from. And part of the reason that has become part of my identity as a hairdresser, is because I really, I think a lot of us built up some new hobbies during the, during the various shutdowns throughout the world over a covid. but mine was really tied into what we were doing because immediately Paul Mitchell started doing like videos because we were on lockdown. But I wanted to do something different. I wanted to break out of the traditional cuts and colors that I had been sharing, And so for me it was something like, what are we now interested in? What's new and exciting, what's interesting? And for me, I always like to go back no matter what I'm doing. I like to like, see, I'm very inspired by my grandparents who were, restaurant restaurateurs

[00:43:00] who totally owned restaurants and did they, they worked really hard. so I always look back to them as a reference for myself moving forward. what am I into? So I started reading a lot more about texture. I started reading,and watching videos. But I started reading about the history behind black people and our hair. Because again, when you don't grow up with something, you lose access to it. . And for me it was really important to gain that access because I had recognized during that time, as a lot of us have, that there was some anti-blackness in the way that I was doing my life. and so when I started to read and grow and expand, it was something that was hard. But also I wanted to be able to share it because I felt so much better as I was moving through it. I realized that I was doing harm in ways that I didn't

[00:44:00] mean to. but who cares if you mean to you, intent versus, yeah.

[00:44:03] Hot lands. It can be, it can just be really different. So for me, learning about the history, understanding, not just we began at slavery, but like where that hair came from. the different tribes in Africa all through. specifically like West Africa, I think, I'm not gonna say all of Africa, but specifically through West Africa. , there were so many like shapes and si and styles that not just denoted like what tribe you were from, but also who you were in the tribe. Like when you were ready to get married, if you were in mourning what your age group was like, who you were in, in the tribe. it really helped you to be a, like a visual representation of who you were and that you can see that so much now in black culture, you can see just I'm a, I'm a hippie black girl. that's exactly what I am. I'm like a goofy hippie black girl. You can tell by the way that I look. But then you can like, look at John Mosley, right? our artistic director for Paul Mitchell. that dude is not a hippie, right? because

[00:45:00] you see his, you see the way that he rolls, you see his, the way that he expresses himself through his hair. So I think that it's. , it's so beautiful that we still like culturally have that. and it's so wonderful to see where it comes from. Yeah. And so that piece is why I started doing the hair historian

[00:45:17] was I forget the exact words you used, but you were of giving me the feeling that you were saying that you said something about, doing harm to my blackness or something. I forget how you said it, but it made me think that, are you saying that you are caught in between because you have a white mom, so are you black or are you white? You're caught in the middle of these two things and that sometimes your identity goes, Hey girl, who are
 
you? What are you are selling yourself out. Here you are. Do you know what? Do you know where I'm coming? .

[00:45:49] Mahogany P: Absolutely. And I think that one of the challenges that a lot of like folks like myself who are multiracial like we do

[00:45:55] we have a lot of questions and nuance and not everybody, like

[00:46:00] some people have like totally balanced and beautiful relationships with both sides of their family and every, they get to enjoy all the culture and That's awesome. Yeah. And also, which is what I'm trying to do with my family now. . And also we can do harm with our ignorance, right? Like we can take our own experience of not knowing and we can do harm to our. Black family are black counterparts by placing all of the emphasis on who we are and our confusion and our, not understanding and taking away from the real harm that is done to black people. the deep scrutinization of their hair.

[00:46:41] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:41] Mahogany P: The deep scrutinization of their life. And that piece is, that's what I mean by doing harm, by, not recognizing our own, multiracial privilege. yes, I grew up black for sure, and yes, I was followed in stores and all of the things, but I had access to a lot of different things because people would allow my mom

[00:47:00] into spaces and she could bring me with, right? so I have privilege in that. and so what I recognized was that I hadn't been using my privilege. to uplift black people. I had just been sitting around feeling sorry for myself and sorry.

[00:47:15] Antony W: Got it. Yeah.

[00:47:16] Mahogany P: It was hard for me to recognize that, but now I have, and I'm, and again, like I said, I'm gonna learn from this from for sure. I will probably rewatch this in a couple of years and be like, huh. Yeah. Okay. Wow, Mahogany. that was ignorant. Cool. that's

[00:47:31] Antony W: me too. I'll probably watch it in half an hour and think the same about me. .

[00:47:33] But that's evolution. And so [00:47:35] Antony W: yeah,
[00:47:36] Mahogany P: the opportunity that I have now to uplift, black stylists and black educators to

[00:47:41] Antony W: Yeah.
 
[00:47:42] support them, to shout their names from the rooftop. Because I think a lot of times when we, you. . One of the thing, one of the challenges that I've seen with specifically within our industry is, we have a lot of people who are like, I can do any texture now. that's the new thing. I'm, so I can do any texture. , but then you also don't

[00:48:00] see that equity in the education, for example.

[00:48:02] Mahogany P: , right? you don't see a lot of, we're we are starting to see more black educators, but like, why didn't we see them before? Excuse me.

[00:48:09] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:10] Mahogany P: Like where and why are you only asking black educators to do blackhair ?

[00:48:15] Like n Lafon is one of my very favorite stylists in the whole wide world, and she is so well versed in all hair and she shows it in her portfolio, and that is, yeah, so important.
Paula Peralta, she is a, and a gifted hair stylist, and I think it's really wonderful to see her being celebrated in these beautiful way ways because it's not just like her work with black hair, it's that she's just a really great hairdresser. And I think when we start to look at, a bigger balance and we start to see more people like Rashen Valsin, when we start to see Angelica Thomas, when we start to see these really incredible, people, Corey Bacon, Larry, James, like, all of these people are so talented and it's so wonderful when you see people like John and Paula who are artistic directors

[00:49:00] pulling them up and putting them forward to create. like more, right? Like we're always looking for new and trends and this and that, but it comes from different perspectives. And if we are always looking for the same people for different perspectives, we're always gonna get the same answers. So I love that we're expanding a little bit more to see how we can reach and touch everybody instead of

[00:49:27] Antony W: Yeah. [00:49:27] just one note.
[00:49:30] Antony W: Got it. I know we're running out of time, which is a shame cause I'm loving this conversation, but one of the things I wanted you to talk, it is not even really a direct question, it's just of an observation. you touched on, you were talking about, I think you're talking about hot combs and stuff, and you said something about I didn't have a nan that did that. I didn't grow up like that. And then you were talking about your friend and you said something about, and she sat me down on the bed and we did this, that and the other to your hair, and. there's a different sort of, what am I trying to say?

[00:50:00] It's less about the salon. there's a real, tradition about doing hair, a family thing, a growing up thing. Your mom does your hair, Just as much as when you talk about the Black
 
Barbershop. I love the Black Barbershop, the culture that is in the Black Barbershop. It ain't just the barbershop. it's a, it's a whole nother thing. II'm not just talking about what in the movies, it has a different energy and culture and like literally a different purpose to it. and as I said, when you were talking about your experiences is of, I couldn't help but picking up on that ju just talk to us about that for a minute and then I wanna touch on some, stuff about products.

[00:50:39] Mahogany P: Absolutely. I think that, like I said, my, I didn't have a nana to do my hair that way. My mom did not have, the same skillset, but likebless her heart, she did learn. She did learn how to cornrow and she did her darnedest. I'm gonna give her that , but it was also the eighties and girls weren't really wearing cornrows at that time the same way.

[00:51:00] yeah.

[00:51:00] Mahogany P: At least Minnesota. So I got made fun of it's, it is what it's, and I think that tradition of growing up and having that hair knowledge is really special. And it also helps you to know, to get to know yourself in a different way. so I think it speaks to like that, like I, I think it makes sense that I didn't really see myself very clearly until I, I had an experience like that with my friend braiding my hair and yeah, giving me this like moment of. Culture that I had, not like I grew up Yeah. In a very white culture. yeah. I'm in Minnesota.
We're Scandinavian and German up here. we're starting to get a lot more different types of people, but it's still true. Yeah. Iit's still very, it's still very white focused and I think that, those places can be really special because they really help to shape your identity and shape how you view the world and shape how you view yourself. but I also think that there is so much as we

[00:52:00] move forward, I think it's not even just a necessarily about biracial people or multi-ethnic people. I think we are just like living closer together. Like the population is growing. So we do have, like Vietnamese neighbors next to, Ghana, Ghanaian neighbors next to, Cambodian neighbors next to, Puerto Rican neighbors. And so I think that piece of it, like we are influencing each other on these really beautiful levels. And I think that when we allow that influence to like really flourish, that's where we're gonna see the innovation from inspiration in the future. that's when we start to see those perspe, those perspectives as valid and beautiful because maybe somebody did grow up in a salon or in, not in a salon world, but grew up doing hair.

[00:52:44] They have value, their value. Is because they've been braiding since they were 12, or since they were five, or since they were six. Like my friends, Dre and Marla, they've been braiding since they were tiny.

[00:52:55] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:52:55] Mahogany P: Which is why they are incredibly talented. [00:53:00] Yeah. Incredibly.
 
[00:53:00] I suppose that, I suppose the thing I wanted to get at was that it's a,you said it was a cultural moment that you'd never had. And that is what, there isn't equivalent in for white people. like that. I don't think there is. it's like a cultural moment going to a salon or your mom doing your, cutting your bangs in the kitchen or whatever.

[00:53:21] Mahogany P: But maybe there is. , but maybe there is think about it. oh, for example, like I would go to my grandma, like when I would go to my grandma's salons, like I would take her to the salons, so she would get her hair done once a week, right? So you get her little roller set on and be cute and sit under the hood dryer and then get it picked out. And then she started bringing my mom to the salon, right? Like that's that so she would get her hair done once week, then she started bringing my mom to the salon. And so it's it's a, it's almost like a familial experience, right? So in that space, she had the opportunity to show her. something you know about grooming show, show her something about expressing herself. this is what the ladies do. and again, this was like in the fifties, so you know, so there, this is what ladies do.

[00:54:00] Antony W: You weren't even alive in the fifties. [00:54:01] But I got a lot of stories from my nana and my mama. [00:54:04] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:54:05] Mahogany P: And so it's that cultural aspect, right? Like that may not be a white people culture, but it is definitely like a culture. That you see, like in that family dynamic where I know that, so my kids don't have to go anywhere to get their hair done, but if they did, their dad would probably take them to the barbershop, right?

[00:54:22] Antony W: Yeah.

[00:54:22] Mahogany P: That's like that's where they would go. And so I think that there's, it's beautiful because there's like really amazing commonalities through all the cultures in like, how do you know where to go? Will you go where your mom went? And then you find out maybe that's not the right place for you, but then you start to find other places as you move through your life. yeah. Or you went to the barbershop with your dad. That's how you got that cultural aspect. And it, to me, when I see. , like the commonalities are so much larger and more important than the differences, but the differences have a bigger impact when they are done without mindfulness. Yeah. Like those differences when we are not thoughtful

[00:55:00] and mindful about how we carry them out or how we dissect them, how we move forward with them. Like just language, right? you were saying, talking about products, I love working with a multitude of different products that sometimes people are not necessarily, they're like, that's not a black product. that's what I wanted to ask you just as we start to wrap up is how different are. I was always under the, impression that, black hair had different products. You mentioned something, you said blue something or other, some
 
[00:55:28] blue magic wax, ,

[00:55:30] Antony W: blue Magic. do you know what I mean? that's a typical example of that ain't no Paul Mitchell problem, product, no. Blue Magic. No. Do you know what I mean? It's so that's what I'm trying to get to there is how different are, black hair products. and because I know that you love Paul Mitchell products and you use all Paul Mitchell products doing black hair, so

[00:55:46] I was a bit, surprised that,what's the right you, I'm not gonna say that those products work on black hair. Of course they work on black hair , but I'm, I was a bit surprised that they are the, your go-to product because they don't only

[00:56:00] work, they work brilliantly on black hair. obviously like any range of products, there's some pomades and stuff I'd use on my hair. There's some I would never use on my hair, so just talk to us about that before we have to wrap up.

[00:56:11] Mahogany P: Antony, you said it. That's exactly it. We're not, we don't make products for skin color. We make products for hair types. that's how that is. That's just like what we do. That's what, like hairdressers, we curate our products around the guests that sit in our chair, right? So for me, I have a lot of fine haired guests with curly to coilly hair. and so for me, Paul Mitchell works really well. certain products work really well because I'm, I, it's like I need the right tool to execute the right. look, so for me, there aren't necessarily, and yes there are. you can, I'm not gonna lie and be like, there aren't black hair, pro hair care products versus white hair care products versus blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which I also think is crazy that we say like black and white when there's like literally hundreds of thousands of other cultures around that, but it's just black and white. but I think when

[00:57:00] we stop looking at the skin tone, like the skin tone and the ethnicity comes into play in how we deliver, how we create, how we, in vibe the, or in how we vibe in the culture of our salon, that's where that matters. , like what images do you have up in your salon? Do they welcome like people of different cultures? Do you know? That type of stuff is where like the language that you use,the selection of products that you have is not really, the language you use is important. The selection of products that you have, if you know how to use them and you know the why behind it, and you understand like why this texture's gonna need a little bit heavier muscle product in order to get the look that we're going for. Whether it's a twist out, a silk press or, or, box braids. , if you have the right products, you can do those if you understand how to use the products properly, specifically on the texture and the formation that you're working with. Yeah. I think for a long time too, we've had, the natural hair community, and no shade on the

[00:58:00] natural hair community, but like the natural hair community came from just a lot of, like consumers, right? that's where co washes came from. It was because consumers were where were using conditioner rather than shampoo, because that shampoo was like really stripping all of the oil out of their hair. So they started using conditioner to cleanse their hair and their, curls were smoother and everything was more moisturized.
 
[00:58:21] But still, PS if you're using co washes, my friends,please, once a month at least clarify that hair. Just, that's my little psa. And just please clarify your hair, your scalp needs, you, scalp health is really important. but. Truly, I think that, products are just tools for us to play with the hair, right? Yeah. That's what they are. Tools for us to play with the hair. And if you know what your products can do and what they can't do, you wouldn't ask a, you wouldn't ask a tissue to do a sponges job, right? it just wouldn't work. You'd be asking it to do something that it was not capable of. and vice versa. If you try, you could do it, but it might be a little too extra. So knowing how to work, knowing what those products work

[00:59:00] best on, and knowing what that hair type you're working on is what the texture is, what the goal is. What the formation is, that is far more important to me when I'm working with products than whether or not I bought it. specifically for black people or specifically for literally anybody else.

[00:59:19] Antony W: Yeah. Got it. Okay. This has been fantastic. I've, I had a whole list of things where we were gonna, where we gonna talk about sound suites, where we gonna talk about You got time, commission, Sal, we're gonna talk about all sorts of stuff, but I've loved what we've been talking about. It's been fantastic. I've learned so much. And,it'll be really interesting to see, what our audience have got to say and what input they've got. Mahogany, I just wanna say thank you so much for being open and honest and what's the word with me? Tolerant . yeah, cuz it, it's important, it's so good to have these conversations and, to broaden your perspective and understanding of the history of everything. Cuz I, I loved hearing all that,thank you. Thank you so much. ,

[01:00:00] Mahogany P: thank you. and honestly Antony, thank you for, for being open to receive it because it's one thing to be able to deliver it, but I think a lot of times when we are hearing things that can be triggering or that can be like, I don't, ah, I didn't know, like we can be really, no matter what the topic is, we can close down a little bit. So I wanted to thank you for being super open to receiving it cuz that's just as important as like

[01:00:23] Antony W: cool being honest about it.

[01:00:25] Antony W: Thanks. Okay. Alright, we're gonna have to get together another time to talk about all these other things.

[01:00:30] Mahogany P: Absolutely.

[01:00:30] Antony W: until then Mahogany Plautz. so nice to have this opportunity to talk to you one more time okay,

[01:00:36] Mahogany P: thanks.

[01:00:37] Antony W: Okay. Bye for now. Bye.
 
[01:00:40] Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If you'd like to connect with us, you'll find us at Grow My Salon business.com or on Facebook and Instagram at Grow My Salon business. And if you enjoy tuning into our podcast, make sure that you subscribe, and share it with your friends. Until next time, this is Antony Whitaker wishing

[01:01:00] you continued success.