WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:42.295 Duke: Yeah, so here we're with another one. 00:00:42.295 --> 00:00:42.695 Finally, 00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:47.370 CJ: back again like we never left, 00:00:51.330 --> 00:00:51.750 man. 00:00:51.750 --> 00:00:53.070 It has been a minute. 00:00:53.070 --> 00:00:54.690 We gotta get this under control. 00:00:54.835 --> 00:00:54.955 Duke: right? 00:00:56.115 --> 00:00:58.525 So this one today, , this one came from me. 00:00:58.625 --> 00:01:03.655 , 'cause I was on the , ServiceNow Discord channel and someone was asking 00:01:03.655 --> 00:01:05.095 like literally how do I network? 00:01:05.095 --> 00:01:08.275 And I thought, how have we not done an episode on that? 00:01:08.725 --> 00:01:09.475 CJ: Right. 00:01:09.865 --> 00:01:14.535 Like it just seems like it is embedded in the DNA of this podcast, right? 00:01:14.535 --> 00:01:17.115 That we would have done this early or often. 00:01:17.430 --> 00:01:18.000 Duke: Right. 00:01:18.300 --> 00:01:20.940 So shame on us and we're gonna rectify that. 00:01:21.050 --> 00:01:23.660 We're gonna talk about like literally how do you network? 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:24.760 It's hard, right? 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:27.920 I don't think I really even understood how to, or even thought 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:31.520 about it at all until knowledge 11. 00:01:31.877 --> 00:01:37.247 CJ: I remember talking to you about networking very early after we met. 00:01:37.947 --> 00:01:41.397 , and the Knowledge 11 thing tracks for me based on those early conversations. 00:01:42.537 --> 00:01:47.187 Remember when I became like aware that networking was a thing that I should do. 00:01:47.594 --> 00:01:49.784 Duke: and I had, like, I had already had. 00:01:49.905 --> 00:01:50.445 A career. 00:01:50.445 --> 00:01:53.625 You know, I had been a traveling consultant for five years and I 00:01:53.625 --> 00:01:55.925 had spent a number of years at that media and advertising 00:01:55.925 --> 00:01:57.815 company as their, magic admin. 00:01:57.815 --> 00:02:02.355 And I knew people, I got along with people, I was happy, but I still didn't 00:02:02.355 --> 00:02:04.815 have my finger on what networking was. 00:02:04.875 --> 00:02:11.923 And at the time My mental model of myself was, I'm really shy and introverted and 00:02:11.923 --> 00:02:15.343 once I self-described as introverted, I thought that meant that I don't 00:02:15.343 --> 00:02:19.510 feel comfortable or it feels like work to involve myself with people. 00:02:19.510 --> 00:02:22.780 So I was kind of happy being off to the side and not interacting. 00:02:22.810 --> 00:02:26.620 And our knowledge 11, these back when knowledge was so small, they'd have 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:28.540 keynote speakers that were just like. 00:02:29.335 --> 00:02:30.205 That was their job. 00:02:30.205 --> 00:02:30.985 I'm a keynote speaker. 00:02:31.705 --> 00:02:34.735 It had nothing, nothing to do with ServiceNow, but this guy came in and 00:02:34.915 --> 00:02:37.315 he was there to talk about networking. 00:02:37.531 --> 00:02:43.508 Tom Singer, if you ever get a chance, to see Tom Singer speak, THOM, please do it. 00:02:43.508 --> 00:02:44.678 It's an amazing experience. 00:02:44.678 --> 00:02:50.931 Anyway, , he was talking about something that he read where the findings were that. 00:02:50.931 --> 00:02:55.755 Introverts built faster, bigger, more powerful networks. 00:02:56.461 --> 00:02:58.226 I was like, what? 00:02:59.786 --> 00:03:01.951 just like, off to the side. 00:03:01.951 --> 00:03:03.571 I'm like, no. 00:03:05.851 --> 00:03:09.938 And you said something to the extent of whereas an extrovert 00:03:09.938 --> 00:03:13.668 is happy to talk about themselves in front of people, an introvert. 00:03:13.848 --> 00:03:18.348 We'll try and keep the attention off themself and therefore, if they're 00:03:18.348 --> 00:03:21.858 mindful, they'll just keep the conversation on the other people, asking 00:03:21.858 --> 00:03:25.548 a lot of questions about the people that they're talking to in order to 00:03:25.548 --> 00:03:27.078 like, keep the pressure off themselves. 00:03:27.258 --> 00:03:29.298 And that makes the other person talk a lot, which makes 00:03:29.298 --> 00:03:30.918 them remember you a lot more, 00:03:31.863 --> 00:03:35.493 CJ: Yeah, because everybody likes to hear, you know, one, somebody who's 00:03:35.548 --> 00:03:36.748 taking an interest in them, right? 00:03:37.563 --> 00:03:39.183 Duke: Yes, exactly. 00:03:39.183 --> 00:03:41.973 And then, but you come away with all the intel, assuming 00:03:41.973 --> 00:03:42.693 you're an introvert, right? 00:03:42.843 --> 00:03:47.403 But you come away with all the intel of, well, this is Bob, and Bob does this, 00:03:47.403 --> 00:03:49.113 and Bob got his ServiceNow job this way. 00:03:49.113 --> 00:03:52.293 And this is the things that Bob struggles with just because he kept 00:03:52.293 --> 00:03:55.653 on asking counter questions and didn't bother talking about yourself. 00:03:55.923 --> 00:03:56.283 Now. 00:03:56.491 --> 00:03:59.161 At the time, that just blew the back of my head straight off. 00:03:59.161 --> 00:04:03.661 I was like, it can't be, it can't be that, that this whole time I, I have held 00:04:03.661 --> 00:04:09.545 the advantage and it's been a bit, and I feel like I take a more balanced approach 00:04:09.545 --> 00:04:13.035 now, but if you saw this episode and thought, gosh, I need to know, learn how 00:04:13.035 --> 00:04:15.855 to network, you're probably an introvert. 00:04:15.855 --> 00:04:18.375 And I just wanna start by saying it's totally okay. 00:04:18.495 --> 00:04:21.525 And in fact, it could be your advantage. 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:25.740 To an introvert, and so that's like the first thing I wanna bring to this episode. 00:04:26.048 --> 00:04:26.618 CJ: Yeah, duke. 00:04:26.628 --> 00:04:29.928 I think, you know, one of those things that's super counterintuitive 00:04:29.928 --> 00:04:31.278 when you think about it, right? 00:04:31.298 --> 00:04:34.778 hold on a second, you mean I don't have to talk in order 00:04:34.778 --> 00:04:36.368 to, to network and meet people? 00:04:36.368 --> 00:04:37.778 And it's like, well, you gotta talk a little bit. 00:04:38.018 --> 00:04:41.168 But mostly, right, like extrovert, extroverts love to 00:04:41.168 --> 00:04:43.568 talk and they especially love to talk about themselves, right? 00:04:43.778 --> 00:04:45.548 And introverts typically like to listen. 00:04:45.548 --> 00:04:48.821 So you know that, fosters a sense of, , connection right there. 00:04:48.975 --> 00:04:52.875 it is weird, but it, I've found it to work too, because like you, I have 00:04:52.875 --> 00:04:55.245 commonly identified myself as a introvert. 00:04:55.495 --> 00:04:57.175 , and no one would believe that now. 00:04:58.115 --> 00:04:58.925 Duke: Yeah, same. 00:04:58.985 --> 00:04:59.285 Right? 00:04:59.405 --> 00:04:59.795 That's what I mean. 00:04:59.795 --> 00:05:02.975 Like over time you evolve to something that's a lot more balanced. 00:05:02.975 --> 00:05:05.195 I don't think I'm either introverted or extroverted. 00:05:06.055 --> 00:05:08.305 CJ: Yeah, it depends on the, it depends on the situation, right? 00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:12.880 Duke: I guess I'd just like to say I'm, I'm just confident whatever 00:05:12.880 --> 00:05:15.760 happens, maybe I do get planted into a big group of people. 00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:16.270 I don't know. 00:05:16.270 --> 00:05:19.260 I'm happy to make conversations, but I'm also happy to , ask most of the 00:05:19.260 --> 00:05:23.140 questions, get them talking and then, I could take a backseat and take it all in. 00:05:23.553 --> 00:05:24.093 CJ: absolutely. 00:05:24.533 --> 00:05:27.773 Duke: Alright, so in typical CJ in the Duke fashion, we did a few minutes of just 00:05:27.773 --> 00:05:31.313 point gathering beforehand, we just gonna go rapid fire and start talking about. 00:05:31.688 --> 00:05:35.478 Things you should, , think about and strategies you can have for networking. 00:05:35.978 --> 00:05:36.268 CJ: Boom. 00:05:36.918 --> 00:05:38.103 Let's go with number one. 00:05:41.388 --> 00:05:42.228 Duke: You hit him with number one. 00:05:42.603 --> 00:05:43.533 CJ: Oh, I'll go with number. 00:05:43.773 --> 00:05:44.043 Okay. 00:05:44.043 --> 00:05:44.373 Let's see. 00:05:44.373 --> 00:05:45.183 It has been a minute. 00:05:45.243 --> 00:05:46.983 All right, I'm gonna go with number one. 00:05:48.843 --> 00:05:54.380 First thing you wanna do, , like for me, is lead with what you can do for others, 00:05:54.563 --> 00:05:58.403 and I think, duke and I are gonna have a, maybe a little bit of only on number one 00:05:58.403 --> 00:06:01.133 and number two, we might have a little bit of a difference of opinion on these, 00:06:01.133 --> 00:06:02.303 but that's what makes the show great. 00:06:02.536 --> 00:06:07.023 for me networking is all about helping others, Putting yourself in a position 00:06:07.383 --> 00:06:11.876 where you can use what others have done for you in the past to help 00:06:11.876 --> 00:06:13.466 other people in the future, right? 00:06:13.466 --> 00:06:16.973 , so I like to think about networking is, paying it forward and 00:06:16.973 --> 00:06:18.953 building a network in that way. 00:06:19.475 --> 00:06:20.830 Duke: So you start with what you can do, 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:21.460 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:21.460 --> 00:06:25.063 I start with what I can do for you, I won't even be thinking about like building 00:06:25.063 --> 00:06:27.043 a network or I'm not in a networking mode. 00:06:27.043 --> 00:06:30.733 I might like a knowledge, I might be in a breakout and I'm listening to the speaker, 00:06:30.913 --> 00:06:34.123 and then I hear something that resonates with an experience that I've had. 00:06:34.888 --> 00:06:36.508 And they're like, this is a thing for us. 00:06:36.508 --> 00:06:37.468 We haven't been able to solve this. 00:06:37.468 --> 00:06:41.588 I was like, oh no, I solved that two years ago so I'll, I'll hang around to 00:06:41.588 --> 00:06:44.558 after the talk, go up to the speaker and say, Hey, you know that thing you 00:06:44.558 --> 00:06:46.028 talked about halfway through your speech? 00:06:46.268 --> 00:06:48.008 I actually did that two years ago. 00:06:48.008 --> 00:06:49.958 You wanna, you wanna talk about how I got there? 00:06:50.138 --> 00:06:50.468 Right? 00:06:50.468 --> 00:06:53.048 And then the next thing you know, like, this person's in my network. 00:06:53.573 --> 00:06:53.903 Duke: Right. 00:06:53.903 --> 00:06:57.083 Or you hear it in conversation or I, for this one, I was thinking 00:06:57.113 --> 00:06:59.123 like when I ranked it one and two. 00:06:59.618 --> 00:07:02.925 I was thinking about maybe you don't have the privilege of being in a group setting. 00:07:02.925 --> 00:07:04.275 Maybe you're on LinkedIn, right? 00:07:04.275 --> 00:07:04.605 Maybe. 00:07:04.635 --> 00:07:08.205 Maybe that's the limit of your social reach at the moment. 00:07:08.295 --> 00:07:12.545 And so when you're messaging somebody you don't know, for me at least, 00:07:12.545 --> 00:07:14.255 it's start with what you want. 00:07:14.508 --> 00:07:14.868 Right. 00:07:14.928 --> 00:07:17.928 But, but it's actually so close that it's not even one and two. 00:07:17.928 --> 00:07:21.708 It's like these things are one thing because don't tell somebody 00:07:21.708 --> 00:07:23.868 what you want without telling them what you can give them. 00:07:24.213 --> 00:07:24.573 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:24.578 --> 00:07:24.848 Fair. 00:07:25.018 --> 00:07:25.368 Right. 00:07:25.428 --> 00:07:27.875 Duke: if I got a, LinkedIn message saying, Robert, I want 00:07:27.905 --> 00:07:30.030 to a ServiceNow HR job, right? 00:07:31.055 --> 00:07:32.855 Like, I, I'm, I'm good for you. 00:07:32.855 --> 00:07:33.035 Right? 00:07:35.705 --> 00:07:36.965 Tell me what. 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:37.670 CJ: bucks. 00:07:37.835 --> 00:07:39.485 Duke: Tell me what you bring to that table. 00:07:39.485 --> 00:07:39.815 Right? 00:07:40.355 --> 00:07:40.985 Tell me what you bring. 00:07:40.985 --> 00:07:44.105 So, if, if, if somebody else came to me and said, I want an HR job. 00:07:44.105 --> 00:07:47.855 I've got the certification, , I've done like x number of years in it. 00:07:47.885 --> 00:07:53.675 Here's something really cool that I did for a customer, or some massive outcome 00:07:53.685 --> 00:07:55.005 that made their environment better. 00:07:55.275 --> 00:07:57.075 Okay, you came to the table with street cred. 00:07:57.375 --> 00:08:00.465 You've got something that you want, and I'm, I got a good 00:08:00.465 --> 00:08:02.085 feeling that you can provide it. 00:08:02.940 --> 00:08:07.470 Now, at the very least, my brain's automatically going through my network, 00:08:07.470 --> 00:08:08.910 seeing what I can connect you with. 00:08:09.630 --> 00:08:09.960 Right. 00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:13.423 So I repent of my one first and second ranking. 00:08:14.128 --> 00:08:14.458 CJ: Yeah, 00:08:14.533 --> 00:08:16.493 Duke: I just think that they, have to go together. 00:08:16.493 --> 00:08:16.733 Right. 00:08:16.733 --> 00:08:19.583 Whether you phrase it first or second, I don't So 00:08:20.228 --> 00:08:21.938 CJ: no, I, yeah, I, I mean, that's a good point. 00:08:22.193 --> 00:08:23.093 Duke: What do you want? 00:08:23.093 --> 00:08:24.263 and, and how can you help? 00:08:24.818 --> 00:08:24.938 . CJ: Yeah. 00:08:24.938 --> 00:08:26.138 What do you want and how can you help? 00:08:26.138 --> 00:08:26.498 Right. 00:08:26.768 --> 00:08:28.298 Or how can you help, and what do you want? 00:08:28.298 --> 00:08:28.838 Either way, 00:08:29.333 --> 00:08:32.783 Duke: And this really wasn't on the list, but you know, take an inventory 00:08:32.783 --> 00:08:34.703 of what you can do with confidence. 00:08:35.085 --> 00:08:38.775 CJ: what I've found is the best way to know what I can do with confidence 00:08:38.775 --> 00:08:42.818 is to try to teach somebody else, when I'm trying to explain a thing 00:08:42.848 --> 00:08:48.548 to someone, there is no better way for me to to know about myself, 00:08:48.548 --> 00:08:50.588 how much I know about that topic. 00:08:51.011 --> 00:08:53.321 when you think about taking stock of the things that you can do with 00:08:53.321 --> 00:08:55.511 confidence, I would say at least, 00:08:55.511 --> 00:09:00.358 that if you can't explain to someone, , about that subject that 00:09:00.358 --> 00:09:03.568 you think you can do with confidence, you probably don't yet have enough 00:09:03.568 --> 00:09:05.488 knowledge to do it with confidence. 00:09:06.193 --> 00:09:06.273 Duke: Hmm. 00:09:07.208 --> 00:09:09.458 CJ: and, and the reason dug a little deep on that, right, is because 00:09:09.458 --> 00:09:12.128 when you say, when you ask someone, Hey, so what can you take stock of 00:09:12.128 --> 00:09:13.118 what you can do with confidence? 00:09:13.118 --> 00:09:14.658 Like, what are you an expert in? 00:09:14.658 --> 00:09:17.088 What can you do that other people can't? 00:09:17.208 --> 00:09:19.758 Like, depending on the person, right? 00:09:19.758 --> 00:09:23.328 Depending on how confident they are or not confident they are, They're 00:09:23.328 --> 00:09:25.938 not gonna be able to accurately give you that information. 00:09:26.228 --> 00:09:29.168 Some people are gonna give you things that they're not confident in, that they don't 00:09:29.168 --> 00:09:33.275 have enough knowledge in, and other people are gonna sell themselves way short, But 00:09:33.275 --> 00:09:39.485 this is, I think, a solid metric that you can use to say, okay, if I can explain 00:09:39.485 --> 00:09:44.255 this topic to someone who only knows a little bit about it, and they can come 00:09:44.255 --> 00:09:49.985 away from that knowing more, I probably have a level of competency in that topic. 00:09:51.315 --> 00:09:51.735 Duke: Yep. 00:09:52.155 --> 00:09:54.228 CJ: yeah, you can add that to your, quiver, 00:09:54.578 --> 00:09:56.378 Duke: that dovetails so nicely with. 00:09:56.608 --> 00:10:00.035 Another thing on the list, which was pay into the Bank of Karma. 00:10:00.315 --> 00:10:05.211 We just thought about taking inventory of the stuff that you can do and test 00:10:05.211 --> 00:10:07.221 yourself by explaining it to people, but. 00:10:07.675 --> 00:10:10.075 Especially in the ServiceNow world, like there's all kinds 00:10:10.075 --> 00:10:11.455 of places you can do that. 00:10:11.455 --> 00:10:16.255 And by doing so, you feed into that visibility engine, So if you start, 00:10:16.441 --> 00:10:21.128 threads on whatever it is you're an expert on and you get good at explaining it, 00:10:21.158 --> 00:10:23.605 that will have a natural gravity to it. 00:10:24.276 --> 00:10:26.181 It is like a passive effect network. 00:10:26.703 --> 00:10:31.723 Think about when, , Mike Scow , and Mark Roff were starting to 00:10:31.723 --> 00:10:32.983 build all their blogs, right? 00:10:32.983 --> 00:10:35.413 Mark was, I remember one time he was kicking out like a blog 00:10:35.413 --> 00:10:37.823 a day and nobody knew, right? 00:10:38.003 --> 00:10:39.743 He didn't even, he didn't even know, right. 00:10:39.743 --> 00:10:41.153 Is he gonna be a big thing? 00:10:41.153 --> 00:10:45.906 But, the numbers have shown that he is excellent at, , doing this stuff. 00:10:45.906 --> 00:10:48.726 And now, , these people have Titanic followings. 00:10:48.973 --> 00:10:51.433 Because they took the time to explain stuff. 00:10:51.703 --> 00:10:55.600 Even, uh, this isn't quite on topic, but, Collie Alexander, right when 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.690 she first started, she was like, I'm learning this stuff so everybody 00:10:58.690 --> 00:11:00.070 else might as well learn too. 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:03.960 I learned, uh, UI policies today, so she'd make a video on here's 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.250 what I learned about UI policies. 00:11:05.255 --> 00:11:07.800 And no, she wasn't teaching the experts, but she was teaching 00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:10.770 everybody else that was just coming in and didn't know UI policies. 00:11:11.130 --> 00:11:11.610 CJ: Yeah. 00:11:11.640 --> 00:11:16.340 And reinforcing, , what she learned about UI policies the same time, right? 00:11:16.340 --> 00:11:19.440 Like this whole thing is funny, Because all of these things 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:21.150 play into this one point, right? 00:11:21.150 --> 00:11:22.900 Of, paying it to the Bank of Karma. 00:11:23.110 --> 00:11:27.070 But if you do these things in a certain way, they all become self-reinforcing. 00:11:27.496 --> 00:11:28.126 Duke: Yes. 00:11:28.726 --> 00:11:33.016 CJ: there's just so much that everyone gets out of it when you pay it 00:11:33.016 --> 00:11:34.766 forward, I learned this thing here. 00:11:34.766 --> 00:11:36.086 You should learn this thing too. 00:11:36.316 --> 00:11:36.646 Great. 00:11:36.646 --> 00:11:40.136 Now all of a sudden people see me, paying it forward to the community, 00:11:40.263 --> 00:11:42.813 and they start reaching out to me, Hey, I saw your thing on the 00:11:43.098 --> 00:11:43.318 Duke: Yep. 00:11:43.833 --> 00:11:44.133 Yep. 00:11:44.943 --> 00:11:45.363 CJ: Right? 00:11:45.483 --> 00:11:47.133 Duke: post from that thing three years ago. 00:11:47.133 --> 00:11:47.853 Do you still have the, 00:11:48.663 --> 00:11:48.993 CJ: Right. 00:11:49.443 --> 00:11:50.613 Duke: do you still know how to do that? 00:11:50.613 --> 00:11:51.483 No, I don't. 00:11:51.873 --> 00:11:52.593 And actually, I. 00:11:53.198 --> 00:11:56.955 even besides networking, just explaining it, I think a 00:11:56.985 --> 00:11:58.455 reinforces it in your own mind. 00:11:58.455 --> 00:12:01.305 Explaining takes a different neural pathway than. 00:12:01.950 --> 00:12:06.280 Then \ discovering, at least I, that's the way I imagine it to happen. 00:12:06.430 --> 00:12:09.040 And then you've got this library of stuff you've done. 00:12:09.040 --> 00:12:12.640 Like I, how many times in 15 years have I said, oh yeah, I did that. 00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:17.620 You just, um, you just, um, I don't know. 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:19.480 Shoot, I've gotta rediscover it again. 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.130 That took me 50 hours last time. 00:12:21.955 --> 00:12:22.405 CJ: Right. 00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:26.380 Duke: But if you could just take a library of the things you're learning. 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:29.970 Put them somewhere , I like to use ServiceNow community. 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.913 , get it somewhere visible and then , you get not only the effect of better 00:12:34.913 --> 00:12:41.633 memorization for you, better lookup for you, but that magnetic name recognition 00:12:41.633 --> 00:12:43.763 that comes with building good content. 00:12:44.331 --> 00:12:49.971 CJ: So all of those things reinforce positive, , aspects of your persona and 00:12:49.971 --> 00:12:55.026 your career and other folks, , experience that, that you're looking to build anyway. 00:12:55.411 --> 00:12:55.621 Right? 00:12:55.621 --> 00:12:56.588 So that's, the great thing. 00:12:56.678 --> 00:12:59.798 this one thing gives you so many different valuable outcomes. 00:13:00.048 --> 00:13:00.528 Duke: Yeah. 00:13:00.605 --> 00:13:02.935 So what if maybe you're at the start of your ServiceNow career, 00:13:02.935 --> 00:13:06.481 maybe you don't have huge accolades that you can brag about or explain, 00:13:06.481 --> 00:13:08.611 or maybe you're just not there yet. 00:13:08.611 --> 00:13:08.671 I. 00:13:08.943 --> 00:13:13.443 you can still pay into the Bank of Karma by, reinforcing people 00:13:13.443 --> 00:13:15.556 who are generating that content. 00:13:15.556 --> 00:13:18.593 And again, this is, this goes beyond just being out of place, networking. 00:13:18.593 --> 00:13:20.933 This is like your social media networking. 00:13:21.273 --> 00:13:24.433 I remember the names of people who are constantly, reacting to 00:13:24.433 --> 00:13:26.473 my content or commenting on it. 00:13:26.473 --> 00:13:28.723 Like I remember those people because they make me feel nice. 00:13:29.308 --> 00:13:29.638 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:29.998 --> 00:13:30.238 Yeah. 00:13:30.238 --> 00:13:30.598 Right. 00:13:30.793 --> 00:13:34.033 Duke: and so you better believe that if one of those people comes and asks me 00:13:34.033 --> 00:13:35.503 a question, I'm gonna take a breath. 00:13:35.923 --> 00:13:39.746 I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and I'm gonna pay them back in my attention. 00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:42.140 , CJ: those names stick out to you, right? 00:13:42.170 --> 00:13:45.500 I'm , in a bunch of local Facebook groups Same thing on LinkedIn, right? 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:48.630 You see over and over the people who are liking your posts, who comment in on 00:13:48.630 --> 00:13:49.920 your posts, , who's sharing your posts. 00:13:50.040 --> 00:13:50.880 Those people become. 00:13:51.400 --> 00:13:55.240 De facto members of your community, AKA members of your network. 00:13:55.630 --> 00:13:56.050 Right. 00:13:56.390 --> 00:13:56.640 Duke: Yeah. 00:13:57.070 --> 00:14:00.530 CJ: You know, and so when they come and say, Hey, duke, , there's this, , thing 00:14:00.530 --> 00:14:02.760 I'm trying to do and I'm really stuck. 00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:05.820 I wonder if you can point me in the right direction for you're 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:07.680 thinking, oh, I know Jack. 00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:07.920 Right? 00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:09.660 Like, I see Jack on every one of my posts. 00:14:09.690 --> 00:14:09.900 Yeah. 00:14:09.900 --> 00:14:10.770 Jack, I can help you. 00:14:10.770 --> 00:14:11.250 Yeah, sure. 00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:13.066 Let's jump , on a Zoom, Boom. 00:14:13.403 --> 00:14:14.573 That's networking. 00:14:15.238 --> 00:14:19.468 Duke: And like for some of us who grew up a little bit before social media, 00:14:19.501 --> 00:14:22.445 and then went through the whole, boom of social media, I think we have a bit 00:14:22.445 --> 00:14:27.205 of a cynical approach to interactions like that, in terms of people's feeds 00:14:27.205 --> 00:14:29.065 and different social media channels. 00:14:29.065 --> 00:14:29.845 But I mean. 00:14:30.415 --> 00:14:32.395 There's a reason that stuff takes off. 00:14:32.695 --> 00:14:33.205 CJ: Right. 00:14:33.805 --> 00:14:36.901 Duke: there's a reason people make content, , do you think anybody would be 00:14:36.901 --> 00:14:41.941 posting content to ServiceNow community or LinkedIn if there was no, like 00:14:41.941 --> 00:14:44.011 mechanism, all you got was replies, 00:14:44.571 --> 00:14:44.931 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:44.931 --> 00:14:44.991 I 00:14:45.231 --> 00:14:47.781 Duke: I don't know if I would, you know, I, I like feeling good. 00:14:47.781 --> 00:14:49.941 I like knowing that my content helped people. 00:14:51.156 --> 00:14:54.926 CJ: Yeah, back in the day, , of the good old message board, PHP and all that kind 00:14:54.926 --> 00:14:59.206 of good stuff, wasn't a like, and so what you did typically was, you'd have 00:14:59.206 --> 00:15:04.246 to reply , thank you, or this was awesome or, you know, appreciate it, right? 00:15:04.246 --> 00:15:07.246 And that, I mean, ultimately I think likes are more efficient, right? 00:15:07.246 --> 00:15:09.496 They, they clutter up the space less, but. 00:15:09.806 --> 00:15:14.756 Because likes are now so low effort, ? And so efficient, taking the time to 00:15:14.756 --> 00:15:18.915 make a comment, And that shows that you actually consumed the content, right? 00:15:18.915 --> 00:15:23.081 Or got the message or found the value, that makes you stand out. 00:15:23.741 --> 00:15:24.341 Even better. 00:15:24.341 --> 00:15:28.721 Like if you share it and say, Hey, this thing was super valuable for me, I wanna 00:15:28.721 --> 00:15:32.441 share this to my network so that you all can get the benefit of that too. 00:15:32.598 --> 00:15:36.641 folks really notice stuff like that, So if you're looking to , get the 00:15:36.641 --> 00:15:40.551 attention, build a network with folks that you don't otherwise know, you 00:15:40.551 --> 00:15:42.441 probably can't get in front of in person. 00:15:42.711 --> 00:15:44.181 This is a solid way of doing it. 00:15:44.776 --> 00:15:49.216 Duke: We talked a lot about social media and LinkedIn, but LinkedIn is 00:15:49.216 --> 00:15:51.033 not everything networking, right? 00:15:51.033 --> 00:15:52.383 It's just, an element of it. 00:15:53.313 --> 00:15:53.613 So I. 00:15:53.658 --> 00:15:54.378 CJ: don't know about you, man. 00:15:54.398 --> 00:15:55.018 I'm in the matrix. 00:15:55.278 --> 00:15:56.098 I'm, I'm stuck. 00:15:56.238 --> 00:15:56.658 I'm digital. 00:15:56.948 --> 00:15:57.618 Fully digital. 00:15:59.828 --> 00:16:04.565 Duke: Yeah, but I mean, we got knowledge coming up, And so like, 00:16:04.745 --> 00:16:07.535 hopefully you don't have time to be on LinkedIn much at knowledge. 00:16:07.535 --> 00:16:09.815 I'm gonna have all kinds of time to be on LinkedIn at Knowledge 00:16:09.815 --> 00:16:10.955 'cause I'm not going to knowledge. 00:16:10.955 --> 00:16:11.405 Ah, 00:16:12.335 --> 00:16:12.905 CJ: Oh man. 00:16:13.130 --> 00:16:13.475 Duke: wa wa 00:16:14.525 --> 00:16:16.175 CJ: Uh, pour one out for Duke, y'all. 00:16:16.295 --> 00:16:16.895 Duke: yeah. 00:16:17.225 --> 00:16:17.765 Whatever it is. 00:16:17.765 --> 00:16:18.095 Good. 00:16:18.245 --> 00:16:19.055 Everybody have fun? 00:16:19.348 --> 00:16:22.780 but Networking one on one, go to the events. 00:16:23.395 --> 00:16:23.455 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:23.455 --> 00:16:24.115 Right. 00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:26.660 Duke: to the events, , knowledge is a once a year thing. 00:16:26.836 --> 00:16:29.326 And not everybody has their privilege of just opening up the wallet and 00:16:29.326 --> 00:16:30.766 shelling out that kind of money to go. 00:16:31.006 --> 00:16:33.310 Not everybody is allowed to go, buy their work. 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:34.360 Um. 00:16:35.876 --> 00:16:37.046 And there goes the train of thought, just 00:16:38.966 --> 00:16:39.536 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:39.926 --> 00:16:40.826 Duke: no go to the event. 00:16:41.216 --> 00:16:42.386 I was thinking about the event. 00:16:42.386 --> 00:16:44.696 I was like, my mind was at Knowledge for like a second there. 00:16:46.136 --> 00:16:46.886 Um, but there's snugs 00:16:48.056 --> 00:16:49.436 CJ: I, that's where I was thinking too, 00:16:49.706 --> 00:16:52.136 Duke: both official and unofficial. 00:16:52.316 --> 00:16:54.776 Part of the whole going to events, like, okay, you're at the event. 00:16:55.226 --> 00:16:58.646 Especially if you were like me back in the day, , how do I not be a wallflower? 00:16:58.646 --> 00:17:02.366 How do I go an event and not feel uncomfortable and shy and 00:17:02.366 --> 00:17:05.016 in the background, how do I still get something out of that? 00:17:05.016 --> 00:17:07.556 And I think the secret is , we talked about when you're an 00:17:07.556 --> 00:17:10.166 introvert, , you keep the pressure on somebody else to do the talking. 00:17:10.166 --> 00:17:12.566 But to do that, you have to have a battery of questions. 00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:15.340 CJ: you need to know how to have a conversation that doesn't 00:17:15.490 --> 00:17:16.930 shut down the conversation. 00:17:17.665 --> 00:17:18.175 Duke: That's right. 00:17:18.385 --> 00:17:18.655 Yeah. 00:17:18.655 --> 00:17:21.295 Something, something that they don't have to say yes or no to 00:17:21.435 --> 00:17:21.785 CJ: right. 00:17:22.205 --> 00:17:24.845 Duke: Something that's got like a little bit of a twist to it to get them thinking. 00:17:24.845 --> 00:17:27.245 But , as I said, go to the events. 00:17:27.860 --> 00:17:32.093 You have, , meetups that are official and unofficial, like that's a great 00:17:32.093 --> 00:17:35.933 thing to do, to build a network, find all the ServiceNow people in your 00:17:35.933 --> 00:17:38.153 area and ask them if there's a snug 00:17:38.723 --> 00:17:39.083 CJ: Yeah. 00:17:39.563 --> 00:17:40.973 Duke: Ask every single one of 'em on LinkedIn. 00:17:40.973 --> 00:17:41.633 Like they don't know. 00:17:41.633 --> 00:17:44.513 You're asking everybody else right now, you're starting like 00:17:44.543 --> 00:17:46.463 2, 3, 4 different conversations. 00:17:46.463 --> 00:17:48.953 That's four different pieces of your network that you didn't have before. 00:17:49.583 --> 00:17:50.153 CJ: And boom. 00:17:50.183 --> 00:17:51.413 And now that might multiply. 00:17:51.443 --> 00:17:55.093 'cause once you go to the meetup now, all those folks that you asked if they 00:17:55.093 --> 00:17:59.863 were coming, if they show up, you've already cold opened those conversations 00:17:59.863 --> 00:18:03.493 by, by reaching out to them previously and say, Hey, are you going to the thing? 00:18:04.143 --> 00:18:05.523 And then now we're all at the thing. 00:18:05.523 --> 00:18:07.053 Hey, it's good to see you. 00:18:07.173 --> 00:18:09.603 Remember I, that was me who asked you if you were coming. 00:18:09.783 --> 00:18:11.403 It's great that you've made it right 00:18:11.488 --> 00:18:12.478 Duke: put a face to a name. 00:18:12.478 --> 00:18:14.458 Yeah, that's a great thing too, right? 00:18:14.458 --> 00:18:17.128 As you shake somebody's hand, like it's great to finally 00:18:17.128 --> 00:18:18.388 put a face to the name or, 00:18:18.628 --> 00:18:19.288 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:20.128 --> 00:18:20.248 Yeah. 00:18:20.248 --> 00:18:23.181 It was great to finally meet you in person, all those kinds, like, 00:18:23.271 --> 00:18:25.911 you know, is this the first time you've been to this type of event? 00:18:25.961 --> 00:18:28.751 this is my first snug, have you ever been this here before? 00:18:28.751 --> 00:18:29.951 What do I need to expect? 00:18:30.231 --> 00:18:31.011 , that sort of thing. 00:18:31.191 --> 00:18:31.491 Duke: Yeah. 00:18:31.491 --> 00:18:33.921 What advice would you give a first time knowledge attendee? 00:18:34.281 --> 00:18:34.791 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:35.421 --> 00:18:36.381 Duke: Like it's day one, 00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:38.790 CJ: Drink plenty of water, bring comfortable shoes. 00:18:40.065 --> 00:18:40.335 Duke: man. 00:18:40.815 --> 00:18:41.505 Every year. 00:18:41.505 --> 00:18:42.165 Every year? 00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:45.120 CJ: Seriously. 00:18:45.375 --> 00:18:45.795 Duke: Yeah. 00:18:46.485 --> 00:18:46.785 Yeah. 00:18:47.100 --> 00:18:49.080 CJ: But yeah, touch grass, man, , you gotta go to the events, 00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:50.280 you gotta meet people in person. 00:18:50.550 --> 00:18:51.690 , you gotta do all of that stuff. 00:18:52.516 --> 00:18:57.370 Then the next one is, embrace the stuff that you don't know, Nobody's an expert 00:18:57.370 --> 00:19:01.420 on everything, and I think some of the best conversations that I've ever had are 00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:07.146 when I'm not an expert and I find someone who is both an expert and passionate 00:19:07.416 --> 00:19:09.456 about the thing that we're talking about. 00:19:09.966 --> 00:19:10.326 Right. 00:19:10.686 --> 00:19:14.960 Like if I find that guy who is super into flow designer, yeah, 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.490 let's talk, I have no idea. 00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:18.470 Let's talk about, Ooh, you can do that. 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:20.300 Like Duke, every time we talk, right? 00:19:20.300 --> 00:19:22.490 you're like, dude, I just figured out you can do this. 00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:24.620 Super cool, awesome thing with Flow Designer. 00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:25.580 It's like, what? 00:19:26.570 --> 00:19:30.050 man, I'm like, I'm still a legacy workflow editor, dude. 00:19:31.340 --> 00:19:33.260 Duke: This is the paradox too. 00:19:33.260 --> 00:19:38.050 I think when you're on a knowledge deficit, you think that asking 00:19:38.050 --> 00:19:43.530 somebody a question in your deficit area is like drawing energy away 00:19:43.530 --> 00:19:45.120 from them and therefore a bad thing. 00:19:45.333 --> 00:19:48.890 But it doesn't have to be if somebody asks me an intelligent question. 00:19:49.201 --> 00:19:52.891 All I can think of for the next week is I wonder how it worked out for them. 00:19:53.256 --> 00:19:53.796 CJ: Right. 00:19:53.901 --> 00:19:56.871 Duke: I'm like, I have to stop myself from messaging them the next day. 00:19:56.901 --> 00:19:57.801 Like, how did it work? 00:19:58.011 --> 00:19:58.851 Tell me how it worked. 00:19:59.511 --> 00:20:00.081 CJ: Yes. 00:20:00.201 --> 00:20:02.241 Duke: So it's like you don't know it, right? 00:20:02.241 --> 00:20:05.721 You asked me this question and I'm intrigued, but I haven't 00:20:05.721 --> 00:20:06.801 stopped thinking about it. 00:20:07.265 --> 00:20:07.805 CJ: Yeah, 00:20:07.955 --> 00:20:11.255 Duke: have me at an advantage now, the gravity is on my side 00:20:11.255 --> 00:20:12.545 pulling into your network. 00:20:12.878 --> 00:20:13.448 CJ: Exactly. 00:20:13.448 --> 00:20:17.968 now I know who you are, you started off this thing wanting me to know who you are. 00:20:17.968 --> 00:20:20.668 Now I know who you are, but not only do I know who you are, 00:20:20.668 --> 00:20:22.828 I'm invested in who you are. 00:20:22.933 --> 00:20:23.233 Duke: Yep. 00:20:23.293 --> 00:20:24.703 And I know where your deficit. 00:20:25.138 --> 00:20:25.798 CJ: yes. 00:20:25.888 --> 00:20:26.258 Duke: Yep. 00:20:26.258 --> 00:20:29.318 a, another great example of a question you could use at knowledge as you 00:20:29.318 --> 00:20:34.048 meet new people is ask them what do you specialize in, in ServiceNow? 00:20:34.048 --> 00:20:35.758 Or what do you do in the ecosystem? 00:20:36.298 --> 00:20:38.908 And cross-reference that with your deficits. 00:20:39.913 --> 00:20:40.203 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:40.528 --> 00:20:42.538 Duke: Like, oh, you're a flow designer expert. 00:20:42.568 --> 00:20:45.148 Hey, I've always wondered this about flow designer. 00:20:46.083 --> 00:20:46.373 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:46.888 --> 00:20:49.108 Duke: now , unless they're busy and they have to go or whatever, 00:20:49.378 --> 00:20:51.088 now , they're happy to talk about that. 00:20:51.088 --> 00:20:53.698 And have you ever met somebody who doesn't wanna talk about their expertise? 00:20:54.568 --> 00:20:55.228 CJ: Never. 00:20:57.178 --> 00:20:57.688 Duke: Seriously. 00:20:57.688 --> 00:21:00.418 So it's just, that's just, it is such a great conversational hack. 00:21:00.418 --> 00:21:04.528 if talking to strangers is new to you, if it's intimidating to you, just do that. 00:21:04.588 --> 00:21:06.148 Ask them what their expertise is. 00:21:06.808 --> 00:21:08.518 Cross reference that you gotta be quick, right? 00:21:08.518 --> 00:21:12.958 Cross reference that with your deficits, and then ask them an intelligent question. 00:21:13.453 --> 00:21:13.843 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:13.843 --> 00:21:17.533 You know, and Duke, I, I wanna just add one final thing onto this point, 00:21:17.620 --> 00:21:22.143 Is that remember in a lot of spaces everyone is here for the same reason, 00:21:22.483 --> 00:21:27.283 ? Everyone shares at least one common interest, and that's service Now. 00:21:27.860 --> 00:21:31.566 And, and so no matter what, you think, oh man, I don't 00:21:31.566 --> 00:21:33.096 have anything I can talk about. 00:21:33.396 --> 00:21:36.726 Always, always, always fall back to what is everyone's 00:21:36.726 --> 00:21:38.736 common interest in this space. 00:21:39.196 --> 00:21:40.126 Go from there. 00:21:40.636 --> 00:21:43.586 So when you're thinking about all of that stuff, don't freeze up. 00:21:43.646 --> 00:21:44.996 We're all here because we love ServiceNow. 00:21:45.536 --> 00:21:46.736 All you gotta do is bring that up. 00:21:48.271 --> 00:21:49.501 Duke: If I went back to my. 00:21:49.611 --> 00:21:53.271 shy days being uncomfortable, being in conversations, I swear 00:21:53.451 --> 00:21:56.151 I would go up to ask somebody and say what's a good question to ask 00:21:56.151 --> 00:21:57.441 somebody at an event like this? 00:21:58.896 --> 00:21:59.406 CJ: Oh yeah, 00:21:59.546 --> 00:22:01.401 Duke: Like just like put it out there, be vulnerable. 00:22:01.401 --> 00:22:04.156 Like nobody's gonna be like, oh, more you wanna talk to people? 00:22:04.386 --> 00:22:05.396 Like people aren't like that. 00:22:06.811 --> 00:22:09.636 CJ: No, because everyone's feeling the same, there's a bunch of folks 00:22:09.636 --> 00:22:12.466 who are just this is what they do, and they're always into it. 00:22:12.466 --> 00:22:14.381 But most people are there thinking, I. 00:22:14.671 --> 00:22:15.151 Oh man. 00:22:15.211 --> 00:22:16.861 how do I start these conversations? 00:22:17.231 --> 00:22:20.591 , I find myself still there sometimes too, right? 00:22:20.591 --> 00:22:23.128 Like, I'm just hanging out at knowledge and, oh crap, 00:22:23.128 --> 00:22:24.538 that's, such and such, right? 00:22:24.538 --> 00:22:25.888 Let me go over and talk to her. 00:22:26.158 --> 00:22:28.378 And it's like, you know, and then you walk up and it's like, oh crap. 00:22:28.438 --> 00:22:29.428 What am I gonna talk about? 00:22:29.458 --> 00:22:30.118 Like, what am I gonna say? 00:22:30.118 --> 00:22:31.543 Hey, I, I saw you on LinkedIn. 00:22:31.818 --> 00:22:32.688 Sometimes, 00:22:35.688 --> 00:22:37.718 everyone gets that, we're all human. 00:22:37.718 --> 00:22:40.098 We're all trying to do the same thing, ? Give yourself some 00:22:40.098 --> 00:22:43.063 grace, ? Because everyone needs to give themselves some grace. 00:22:45.273 --> 00:22:47.853 Duke: Still in line with the embrace the stuff you don't know. 00:22:47.943 --> 00:22:51.403 , even if you're not at knowledge and going back to , maybe the internet's 00:22:51.403 --> 00:22:52.663 the only network you got right now. 00:22:52.926 --> 00:22:57.546 You don't have to be the source of the answer in order to get network 00:22:57.546 --> 00:22:59.496 credit for the problem being solved. 00:22:59.961 --> 00:23:00.771 CJ: Oh yeah, that's right. 00:23:01.183 --> 00:23:03.823 Duke: A lot of people think , oh, Robert does all this content and he gives so 00:23:03.823 --> 00:23:05.323 much to ServiceNow community or whatever. 00:23:05.416 --> 00:23:10.650 but I have asked more questions than posted answers to content. 00:23:11.253 --> 00:23:15.806 Uh, far and away, and it's, you get passive network increments from that 00:23:15.806 --> 00:23:20.366 because it was like, oh, remember that conversation Robert started 00:23:20.366 --> 00:23:22.166 and we all learned about this? 00:23:22.273 --> 00:23:25.213 Or maybe it doesn't have an answer, but some of the best minds coalesce 00:23:25.213 --> 00:23:26.473 against, , around this problem. 00:23:26.473 --> 00:23:27.283 It's interesting. 00:23:27.583 --> 00:23:30.073 And then everybody has a chat, but you were part of that chat. 00:23:30.970 --> 00:23:31.660 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:23:32.078 --> 00:23:32.678 Exactly. 00:23:33.199 --> 00:23:37.519 Duke: nobody's keeping a scoreboard up for all these points or whatever, but this 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.304 is things that people notice passively. 00:23:40.179 --> 00:23:42.349 CJ: Well, that's the whole point too, of having a network, right? 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.329 The whole point of having a network is when you're in that space and Duke, you're 00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:49.579 asking about how do we do an integration? 00:23:50.029 --> 00:23:53.839 And I'm like, yeah, well, you know, I actually know the person who is 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.657 like an expert at, soap integrations, and that's what you're stuck with. 00:23:57.807 --> 00:24:00.387 Let me get them in this chat, ? Boom. 00:24:00.387 --> 00:24:03.897 Now all three of us in the chat, you can pick his brain, her brain about, 00:24:03.997 --> 00:24:08.317 , whatever it is with soap, calls, and and so on and so forth, and now boom. 00:24:08.317 --> 00:24:12.407 Now we've got a network, I've introduced you to somebody my network where you 00:24:12.407 --> 00:24:15.007 found value and I've done you that favor. 00:24:15.967 --> 00:24:19.337 Well now if I, now I've done you a favor, , I'm going to one 00:24:19.367 --> 00:24:21.107 wonder, how it worked out for you. 00:24:22.397 --> 00:24:24.557 but two, now I'm gonna remember you. 00:24:24.887 --> 00:24:25.187 Duke: Yep. 00:24:25.907 --> 00:24:28.487 It all goes back to the paying into the Bank of Karma thing too, so 00:24:28.487 --> 00:24:33.197 get involved in the conversations, contribute with questions, responses, 00:24:33.197 --> 00:24:36.827 or answers, whichever the three of those you can provide at the time. 00:24:37.162 --> 00:24:41.692 And , good conversations, draw energy, man, like how many times over on 00:24:41.692 --> 00:24:45.648 community, on Slack, on Discord I've had like these random questions, 00:24:45.648 --> 00:24:46.698 something I'm just curious about. 00:24:46.698 --> 00:24:49.918 And all of a sudden there's like dozens of replies and the whole 00:24:49.918 --> 00:24:53.248 kit and caboodle of name names are coming in and talking about this. 00:24:53.518 --> 00:24:56.338 And so if you've been involved, if you're in that scrum. 00:24:56.648 --> 00:25:00.038 You're just somebody just starting to network and now you're in a conversation. 00:25:00.038 --> 00:25:04.882 And Earl and Travis and Corey and people are in this thread pay the 00:25:04.882 --> 00:25:09.018 Karma Bank, like their posts, but also send them LinkedIn invites 00:25:09.598 --> 00:25:10.128 CJ: Yeah, 00:25:10.338 --> 00:25:11.208 Duke: with the message. 00:25:11.268 --> 00:25:12.858 Hey, I love that conversation. 00:25:12.858 --> 00:25:14.988 We are in, I learned this. 00:25:15.295 --> 00:25:17.172 Bam, now you're the last face. 00:25:17.172 --> 00:25:18.792 They remember for the, for the next hour. 00:25:19.692 --> 00:25:20.352 CJ: Absolutely. 00:25:20.608 --> 00:25:23.248 now, not only have you made that connection, but you've 00:25:23.248 --> 00:25:25.618 made that connection in a way that makes you memorable. 00:25:25.893 --> 00:25:26.443 Duke: Bingo. 00:25:26.473 --> 00:25:27.343 Be memorable. 00:25:27.343 --> 00:25:28.648 You got a lot to say on that too, right? 00:25:29.968 --> 00:25:34.535 CJ: You do like, honestly, that's key for me, Is always stand out. 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:40.227 A recovering introvert, there's always, always, always this pressure to blend in, 00:25:40.512 --> 00:25:41.737 Oh, there's a bunch of people up here. 00:25:41.737 --> 00:25:45.217 Let me just go and slide in this, group and just be one of the crowd. 00:25:45.487 --> 00:25:48.037 Well, nobody notices you if you're one of the crowd. 00:25:48.367 --> 00:25:50.647 And the whole point of networking is to be noticed. 00:25:51.382 --> 00:25:55.458 It's to be memorable is to create, this view about yourself 00:25:55.458 --> 00:25:56.628 and other people's head. 00:25:56.725 --> 00:26:00.872 so that they think when they have something that could help people, They 00:26:00.932 --> 00:26:05.802 think of you as one of the people who is looking for a certain thing, And it's 00:26:05.802 --> 00:26:08.562 like, oh, so now it is passive, right? 00:26:08.562 --> 00:26:11.442 Like one all, you have to, if you are memorable upfront. 00:26:11.787 --> 00:26:12.057 Right. 00:26:12.057 --> 00:26:12.417 I know. 00:26:12.417 --> 00:26:13.917 Oh man, I know who Duke is, right? 00:26:13.917 --> 00:26:14.877 Like, yeah, absolutely. 00:26:15.117 --> 00:26:15.687 Oh crap. 00:26:15.867 --> 00:26:17.067 There's an SPM project. 00:26:17.067 --> 00:26:18.747 Well, I know that's Duke's thing, right? 00:26:18.747 --> 00:26:20.067 Like, Hey, you know what's up, man? 00:26:20.067 --> 00:26:23.847 I, this SPM project you, you available Here, let me hook you guys up. 00:26:24.177 --> 00:26:24.657 Boom. 00:26:24.837 --> 00:26:25.647 Just like that. 00:26:25.827 --> 00:26:27.537 But that happens when you stand out, right? 00:26:27.537 --> 00:26:30.417 , so you can't plan in, and I know there's this, just, this is a huge 00:26:30.417 --> 00:26:34.327 amount of pressure, to, just wanna say hello and just fade in and let 00:26:34.327 --> 00:26:38.137 other people carry the conversation and, and no, I don't care if you 00:26:38.137 --> 00:26:40.417 think you, yeah, be aggressive, right? 00:26:40.447 --> 00:26:42.517 I don't care if you think you're gonna sound dumb, right? 00:26:43.147 --> 00:26:44.467 Take the risk, sound dumb. 00:26:44.557 --> 00:26:45.757 Let somebody correct you. 00:26:45.997 --> 00:26:47.407 That's memorable too. 00:26:48.232 --> 00:26:52.582 Duke: One of my favorite examples of this was, it was early days of knowledge, 00:26:52.652 --> 00:26:57.278 probably 14 or 15, and it was in Vegas. 00:26:57.402 --> 00:27:00.492 and I'd, come off working for this account and there was this guy. 00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:03.660 He is like, Hey, we're gonna ramp up some ServiceNow discipline on our side too. 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:05.730 I need to hire a good ServiceNow person. 00:27:05.730 --> 00:27:06.960 will there be any acknowledge? 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.220 I'm like, there's gonna be hundreds. 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:09.030 Like, how could you even, 00:27:11.790 --> 00:27:14.390 but it didn't really dawn on me until, after there's just hundreds 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:15.530 of people that are passing by. 00:27:15.530 --> 00:27:16.940 You're not conversing with each of them. 00:27:17.800 --> 00:27:20.170 and I, I said it half jokingly, just wear a sign. 00:27:20.170 --> 00:27:21.490 wear a sign that you're hiring. 00:27:22.075 --> 00:27:22.525 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:25.330 Duke: And I said it half jokingly, but the dude showed up with a sign 00:27:26.035 --> 00:27:26.515 CJ: Love it. 00:27:26.650 --> 00:27:30.223 Duke: that he wore, like a little placard that said he's, hiring for these things. 00:27:30.503 --> 00:27:33.113 And he just wore it around like absolutely shameless. 00:27:33.278 --> 00:27:35.468 didn't care that it looked just some of ridiculous, but , he 00:27:35.468 --> 00:27:37.028 got exactly what he wanted. 00:27:37.298 --> 00:27:41.538 And , think about all the people at Knowledge that you've seen that just wear 00:27:41.538 --> 00:27:43.218 something that's just a little bit off. 00:27:44.088 --> 00:27:44.988 CJ: Yeah, man. 00:27:45.138 --> 00:27:46.008 Duke: they peacock a bit. 00:27:46.008 --> 00:27:48.898 Like, I remember vivid charts, the first couple knowledges we had the 00:27:48.898 --> 00:27:52.048 bright green glow in the dark sneakers 00:27:52.393 --> 00:27:53.053 CJ: Yes. 00:27:53.608 --> 00:27:54.778 Duke: And strips for that matter. 00:27:54.858 --> 00:27:58.968 It's okay to have , some kind of visual flare, wear bright red shoes. 00:27:58.968 --> 00:28:04.098 Like just when, when we ever get the opportunity to just go all out like that. 00:28:04.577 --> 00:28:05.087 CJ: hardly ever. 00:28:05.087 --> 00:28:09.967 And this is one of those times where you can legit say to yourself, I'm 00:28:09.967 --> 00:28:14.887 gonna stand out and standing out is me furthering my professional 00:28:14.887 --> 00:28:16.905 career, I'm going to wear the. 00:28:16.982 --> 00:28:21.152 Best, most, kick ass shoes that I have in the closet. 00:28:21.212 --> 00:28:21.482 Right? 00:28:21.482 --> 00:28:24.662 And I'm gonna do that because I know that people are gonna comment on them. 00:28:24.895 --> 00:28:27.595 And you know, people always comment on my shoes, right? 00:28:27.595 --> 00:28:32.785 And, which is weird because I'm not a shoe guy at all either. 00:28:32.935 --> 00:28:34.255 But like, you know, 00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:35.350 Duke: It's a scale. 00:28:35.350 --> 00:28:35.920 Really, I, 00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:41.500 from my end of the perspective, you're totally a. 00:28:42.575 --> 00:28:42.795 CJ: Ha. 00:28:43.390 --> 00:28:43.990 Fair enough. 00:28:44.860 --> 00:28:47.050 I do have some very nice Vegas shoes. 00:28:47.050 --> 00:28:47.350 Right. 00:28:48.950 --> 00:28:52.100 and people always comment on those and that starts the conversation too. 00:28:52.183 --> 00:28:55.527 Now you're the guy with the kicks, And boom, here you are. 00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:58.060 You might be at home listening to thinking, man, that sounds 00:28:58.060 --> 00:28:59.500 easy, but it can't be that easy. 00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:00.370 Well, actually it can. 00:29:01.460 --> 00:29:01.940 Duke: Yeah, it is. 00:29:01.975 --> 00:29:05.720 It it, like some of it's not even I know some people can pull off 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:07.610 flamboyant, like a lot better, right? 00:29:08.150 --> 00:29:13.110 Some people can have, can pull off that visual, wear something oddball that works. 00:29:13.395 --> 00:29:17.658 You know, that hasn't always been me or ever or ever been me. 00:29:17.848 --> 00:29:20.652 but also just pay attention to what your mama told you, right? 00:29:20.652 --> 00:29:24.825 Like, comb your hair and just take a few seconds and be mindful of your appearance, 00:29:25.707 --> 00:29:25.927 CJ: Yes. 00:29:26.092 --> 00:29:29.812 Duke: and your posture and all those invisible social cues 00:29:30.022 --> 00:29:33.202 that we calculate effortlessly without even thinking about it. 00:29:33.612 --> 00:29:35.142 think about it a little bit beforehand. 00:29:35.415 --> 00:29:36.465 Do I look good in this shirt? 00:29:36.515 --> 00:29:37.505 Pay attention to that stuff. 00:29:37.535 --> 00:29:38.225 It matters. 00:29:38.225 --> 00:29:40.145 We don't like to say it matters, but it does, 00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:41.150 CJ: It does. 00:29:41.225 --> 00:29:42.245 Duke: stand up straight. 00:29:42.572 --> 00:29:45.985 You speak from your gut project, your voice, firm handshake. 00:29:46.585 --> 00:29:47.335 CJ: Oh man. 00:29:47.605 --> 00:29:49.195 Oh, I got a handshake story, dude. 00:29:49.405 --> 00:29:49.825 So, 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.902 so, everywhere I go, people comment on my handshake, man, you've got a 00:29:55.902 --> 00:29:58.092 great handshake of nice firm handshake. 00:29:58.135 --> 00:29:58.975 this is crazy. 00:29:59.305 --> 00:30:02.935 And the reason that I have such a great handshake and I'm, I'm, I'm owning 00:30:02.935 --> 00:30:05.855 it at this point, it is apparently a really good handshake, is because I 00:30:05.855 --> 00:30:06.965 learned how to do it in high school. 00:30:07.143 --> 00:30:11.293 and the high school I went to , had a class that was, test taking skills 00:30:11.533 --> 00:30:13.333 and life skills all rolled up in one. 00:30:13.843 --> 00:30:16.363 and one of the things, that the teacher taught us was , how 00:30:16.363 --> 00:30:17.923 to do a firm handshake. 00:30:18.708 --> 00:30:22.825 How to execute that in a way to make you feel connected with the 00:30:22.825 --> 00:30:23.875 person that you're talking to. 00:30:23.995 --> 00:30:27.865 So eye contact firm handshake, be memorable. 00:30:27.895 --> 00:30:28.405 Right, 00:30:28.465 --> 00:30:29.515 Duke: that's the trick, right? 00:30:29.515 --> 00:30:31.345 Is look at the eyes, not the hand. 00:30:31.765 --> 00:30:32.335 CJ: right. 00:30:33.115 --> 00:30:33.685 You know, 00:30:33.925 --> 00:30:34.645 Duke: Even me, like I. 00:30:38.455 --> 00:30:42.025 CJ: It's gotta be firm, and I hate saying this but you will be memorable 00:30:42.025 --> 00:30:47.018 if you have like a very weak handshake too, I hate all of these stereotypes 00:30:47.018 --> 00:30:48.188 and all this other kind of stuff, right? 00:30:48.308 --> 00:30:49.178 But look, it's true. 00:30:49.628 --> 00:30:49.808 It's true. 00:30:49.928 --> 00:30:50.258 Duke: It. 00:30:50.648 --> 00:30:51.158 Yeah. 00:30:51.158 --> 00:30:52.958 I mean, everybody knows that person. 00:30:52.988 --> 00:30:57.278 They like socially that everybody, everybody likes this person and nobody 00:30:57.278 --> 00:31:00.128 can explain why, because it's all of these things that we calculate 00:31:00.128 --> 00:31:01.058 without even thinking about it. 00:31:01.058 --> 00:31:02.048 They know how to dress well. 00:31:02.048 --> 00:31:04.568 They go well groomed, they're well postured. 00:31:04.595 --> 00:31:07.205 they have all those subtle cues of confidence 00:31:07.445 --> 00:31:07.775 CJ: Yes. 00:31:07.775 --> 00:31:08.465 They project. 00:31:09.035 --> 00:31:09.605 Yeah. 00:31:09.695 --> 00:31:11.285 Duke: And a a firm handshake is. 00:31:11.512 --> 00:31:15.082 I'm just gonna go ahead and say I think it, like, it, it had a masculine origin, 00:31:15.525 --> 00:31:15.885 CJ: Yep. 00:31:15.975 --> 00:31:18.765 Duke: Where it I'm gonna show you that I'm strong and I'm not a pushover 00:31:18.765 --> 00:31:20.632 and a respectful show of peace. 00:31:20.632 --> 00:31:24.525 Like I'm unarmed and I am strong and I'm meeting you in the middle. 00:31:25.335 --> 00:31:26.805 CJ: That's exactly where it comes from. 00:31:26.938 --> 00:31:29.888 And it used to be, if we wanna get really technical in the history of it, right? 00:31:29.888 --> 00:31:32.492 It used to be grabbing the forearm, Because that signal, 00:31:32.492 --> 00:31:35.882 you know, that prevented you from going for your sword, right? 00:31:35.912 --> 00:31:40.562 And, and it showed, I come in peace and I'm willing to be vulnerable. 00:31:40.622 --> 00:31:42.152 Like I can't go for my weapon. 00:31:42.603 --> 00:31:45.003 to show you that, , and it just kind of evolved from there. 00:31:45.123 --> 00:31:48.790 But so many people comment on my handshake that I have to say at this 00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:51.520 point that it matters, you know? 00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:56.257 And, so invest the time and crafting a firm handshake. 00:31:56.317 --> 00:31:58.303 Make the solid eye contact when you do it. 00:31:58.633 --> 00:31:59.413 Be memorable. 00:31:59.682 --> 00:32:02.858 Duke: I mean, it's scary at first too, When you're first learning, especially 00:32:02.858 --> 00:32:06.848 the eye contact piece, if you just like bite down inside until it's done, 00:32:06.918 --> 00:32:08.658 there's that invisible respect layer. 00:32:08.658 --> 00:32:11.478 That's, that's, that's a, that's, um, a. 00:32:16.218 --> 00:32:17.388 Also work on your stutter. 00:32:20.928 --> 00:32:21.168 Yeah. 00:32:21.198 --> 00:32:21.378 Okay. 00:32:21.378 --> 00:32:23.778 But if you really don't know how to do a handshake, okay. 00:32:23.888 --> 00:32:27.458 , squeeze hard, harder than you think you should, 00:32:28.268 --> 00:32:28.558 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:28.838 --> 00:32:31.358 Duke: I promise you, you're not gonna hurt them, 00:32:32.018 --> 00:32:32.498 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:32.862 --> 00:32:34.602 Duke: So, squeeze harder than you think you should. 00:32:34.992 --> 00:32:38.622 And if you don't know when to let go, don't let go. 00:32:43.452 --> 00:32:45.822 The other person, just let the other person decide. 00:32:46.992 --> 00:32:47.532 CJ: Love that. 00:32:51.402 --> 00:32:51.762 Duke: Oh 00:32:51.822 --> 00:32:54.282 CJ: if you, if you don't know, then you don't know. 00:32:54.282 --> 00:32:54.792 Duke: good one. 00:32:56.322 --> 00:32:58.242 10 minutes on handshake, 20 minutes on everything. 00:32:58.662 --> 00:32:59.022 CJ: Yes. 00:33:01.507 --> 00:33:04.498 And, you should still be shaking the person's hand right now. 00:33:07.873 --> 00:33:09.433 . Duke: Are you a two pump guy or are you a three pump guy? 00:33:09.898 --> 00:33:13.048 CJ: somewhere between two and three, depending on like the other person, 00:33:13.138 --> 00:33:14.698 I kind of sense and reciprocate. 00:33:15.328 --> 00:33:19.108 Um, you know, it was funny, I was shaking hands with, someone I met yesterday. 00:33:19.813 --> 00:33:21.403 He was like a 30 pump guy 00:33:22.558 --> 00:33:23.008 Duke: Oh yeah. 00:33:23.248 --> 00:33:26.098 Well, different like national cultures around it too, right? 00:33:26.113 --> 00:33:26.713 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:26.893 --> 00:33:27.163 Yeah. 00:33:27.163 --> 00:33:27.883 And that's true. 00:33:27.943 --> 00:33:29.053 He's resilient, right? 00:33:29.053 --> 00:33:29.443 He's not. 00:33:29.443 --> 00:33:29.893 He's uh, 00:33:32.503 --> 00:33:35.293 and he was like just very enthusiastic about the handshake, right? 00:33:35.293 --> 00:33:36.883 And he just kept going. 00:33:37.093 --> 00:33:39.133 And so I like it was, I don't know. 00:33:39.313 --> 00:33:41.863 But the point is, right, like, you know, everyone shakes 00:33:41.893 --> 00:33:43.063 hands a little bit differently. 00:33:43.233 --> 00:33:43.323 but. 00:33:43.922 --> 00:33:44.312 Do you? 00:33:44.372 --> 00:33:45.632 It should be memorable. 00:33:45.662 --> 00:33:46.472 It should be firm. 00:33:46.622 --> 00:33:48.662 It ain't got to be A bear trap or whatever you call it. 00:33:48.962 --> 00:33:52.122 But it shouldn't be, memorable because it's weak either. 00:33:53.313 --> 00:33:53.493 Duke: Okay. 00:33:53.493 --> 00:33:56.013 I got two small ones that we should probably cover right before we go. 00:33:56.173 --> 00:33:56.463 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:57.183 --> 00:33:57.483 Duke: All right. 00:33:57.513 --> 00:33:58.653 What, how does the saying go? 00:33:58.653 --> 00:34:01.293 If the mountain won't come to Mohamad, then Mohamad will go to the mountain? 00:34:01.293 --> 00:34:02.223 Is that the way they say it? 00:34:02.753 --> 00:34:03.753 CJ: I think that's the way I remember it. 00:34:05.028 --> 00:34:10.172 Duke: So when I say that, it is just kind of like, you just gotta do it. 00:34:10.862 --> 00:34:14.855 Like get up and do something, we given you plenty of ideas, 00:34:14.855 --> 00:34:16.925 both digitally and in person. 00:34:17.285 --> 00:34:19.652 But you gotta do it, the network doesn't come to you. 00:34:19.652 --> 00:34:21.212 You must go to the network. 00:34:21.637 --> 00:34:22.277 CJ: Yes, 00:34:23.102 --> 00:34:23.612 Duke: Um, 00:34:23.687 --> 00:34:24.137 CJ: percent. 00:34:24.265 --> 00:34:27.325 you cannot network without showing up, 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:28.870 Duke: Right. 00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:29.350 Right. 00:34:29.350 --> 00:34:32.730 Without doing something, you can't do the whole, well, I don't 00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:33.720 know how to make it handshake. 00:34:33.720 --> 00:34:34.380 Well, okay. 00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:38.020 The first person you meet in handshake with, if you're bad at it, you are 00:34:38.020 --> 00:34:39.430 gonna be at least twice as good. 00:34:39.430 --> 00:34:40.000 The next one? 00:34:40.600 --> 00:34:41.380 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:42.280 Exactly. 00:34:42.490 --> 00:34:45.790 And there's so many people you're gonna meet, like you'll forget. 00:34:45.843 --> 00:34:48.153 the times when you were bad at things like I was bad at. 00:34:48.153 --> 00:34:51.933 I have a lot of awkward conversations that, and I've forgotten most of them. 00:34:51.933 --> 00:34:55.503 I didn't forget them at the time where I felt like really cringey about it. 00:34:55.503 --> 00:34:55.773 Right? 00:34:56.478 --> 00:34:56.958 Duke: Yeah. 00:34:56.963 --> 00:34:57.233 Yeah. 00:34:57.963 --> 00:34:59.613 CJ: But I can't remember them now. 00:35:00.153 --> 00:35:02.007 go and then and do the thing. 00:35:02.007 --> 00:35:05.063 ? And don't worry about so much if you're gonna be, , cringey, if you're 00:35:05.063 --> 00:35:08.363 gonna be awkward, like everybody's gonna be awkward a couple times. 00:35:08.363 --> 00:35:09.833 I'm still awkward now sometimes. 00:35:10.018 --> 00:35:11.338 Duke: it is like any sport, right? 00:35:11.338 --> 00:35:14.548 You just start playing a sport, the first like few swings are gonna be a 00:35:14.548 --> 00:35:17.332 little bit weird and uncomfortable, but you'll get the hang of it quick. 00:35:17.692 --> 00:35:20.828 I guess the last one is I get a lot of questions like, who should I network? 00:35:20.828 --> 00:35:21.788 Should I talk to recruiters? 00:35:21.788 --> 00:35:23.828 Should I talk to product owners? 00:35:23.828 --> 00:35:25.748 Should I talk to other consultants that are like me? 00:35:25.748 --> 00:35:26.978 The answer is yes. 00:35:30.323 --> 00:35:33.070 You could like network with the servers, you just 00:35:33.135 --> 00:35:33.425 CJ: Yeah. 00:35:33.777 --> 00:35:35.037 Duke: the law of large numbers. 00:35:35.097 --> 00:35:37.317 If you talk to enough people, you're gonna find these weird 00:35:37.317 --> 00:35:38.997 connections, that can store value. 00:35:38.997 --> 00:35:43.137 Don't worry about pruning your network or, or, or optimizing your 00:35:43.137 --> 00:35:45.297 network until you have a huge one. 00:35:46.527 --> 00:35:49.257 So, until then, talk to everybody. 00:35:49.792 --> 00:35:51.352 CJ: I a hundred percent agree with you. 00:35:51.632 --> 00:35:54.722 And I will emphasize that, even to the point of talking 00:35:54.722 --> 00:35:58.572 to, , the servers or folks that who are outside of the ServiceNow 00:35:58.572 --> 00:36:01.118 industry, network with, everyone. 00:36:01.417 --> 00:36:02.557 it's funny, right? 00:36:02.557 --> 00:36:06.807 But some of the best conversations I've had, have been in places that 00:36:06.807 --> 00:36:10.737 had absolutely nothing at all to do with ServiceNow, ? But someone 00:36:10.737 --> 00:36:11.967 will ask, Hey, so what do you do? 00:36:11.967 --> 00:36:13.767 It's like, oh yeah, I'm a software consultant. 00:36:13.767 --> 00:36:15.657 I do independent consultant in ServiceNow space. 00:36:16.107 --> 00:36:18.867 They're like, oh, oh, I've heard of, yeah. 00:36:20.862 --> 00:36:24.985 Duke: A few years back we went to, Yogi Bear Campground to celebrate 4th of July. 00:36:24.985 --> 00:36:28.445 We just went by ourselves, but , we camped next to this family, and 00:36:28.445 --> 00:36:31.775 that's exactly what happened is she's like, what do you do? 00:36:31.775 --> 00:36:33.785 I'm like, I work with this product called ServiceNow. 00:36:33.785 --> 00:36:35.015 And she's like, oh, I use ServiceNow. 00:36:35.015 --> 00:36:36.575 And she's , big on the GRC end of it. 00:36:36.825 --> 00:36:39.375 Now we're like, we go camping with them every single year. 00:36:39.505 --> 00:36:40.765 So yes, network with everybody. 00:36:40.885 --> 00:36:44.065 Matter of fact, talking about the servers thing, like the next time I'm in the 00:36:44.065 --> 00:36:46.855 presence of a server, I'm gonna ask them like, what is the best icebreaker 00:36:46.855 --> 00:36:50.155 question you have walking up to a group of five people that you don't know? 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:51.415 CJ: Yeah, I mean, 00:36:51.445 --> 00:36:52.795 Duke: I'll bet you they know the answer to 00:36:52.975 --> 00:36:53.935 CJ: I bet they do. 00:36:55.675 --> 00:36:56.545 I bet they do. 00:36:56.545 --> 00:36:59.725 I bet they are likely experts in networking and small talk. 00:37:00.265 --> 00:37:03.205 Duke: And I, and I bet you they don't get into question like that, in 10 00:37:03.205 --> 00:37:06.178 years of serving and they would be happy to, like, that would probably 00:37:06.178 --> 00:37:07.318 be a great conversation to have. 00:37:07.922 --> 00:37:08.852 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:37:09.092 --> 00:37:11.942 so this is one that's not on our list, duke, but I think I, 00:37:11.942 --> 00:37:13.322 this is a great segue for it. 00:37:13.712 --> 00:37:18.132 Always keep yourself open to learning, , new ideas in unexpected places. 00:37:18.415 --> 00:37:23.268 and that means learning from, , unexpected people, But it also means learning in 00:37:23.598 --> 00:37:28.038 unexpected mediums or on topics that might not even, you think, might not 00:37:28.038 --> 00:37:33.198 even be related to, things that you do, it's just always just be open to 00:37:33.198 --> 00:37:35.748 receiving knowledge, From places that. 00:37:35.973 --> 00:37:39.753 You wouldn't conventionally think, well, I'm looking for Service now knowledge. 00:37:39.783 --> 00:37:44.613 I probably don't need to listen to this podcast on organizational psychology. 00:37:45.123 --> 00:37:45.873 Yeah, you do. 00:37:47.043 --> 00:37:47.673 Duke: Oh man. 00:37:47.703 --> 00:37:48.903 Like we talk about that a ton. 00:37:48.903 --> 00:37:51.303 You like the whole like recombination of ideas, 00:37:51.333 --> 00:37:51.753 CJ: Yes, 00:37:52.303 --> 00:37:55.455 Duke: wanna get a good example When I was learning how to do some 00:37:55.455 --> 00:37:59.255 basic leather work, my teacher was like, oh, you're lucky. 00:37:59.255 --> 00:38:01.595 Like I learned how to work leather in Japan. 00:38:02.195 --> 00:38:04.265 And they don't teach you how to make a thing. 00:38:04.312 --> 00:38:09.068 It's just here's, here's a craft knife and here's three miles of leather and 00:38:09.068 --> 00:38:10.958 just cut it into objects this size. 00:38:11.897 --> 00:38:12.227 CJ: Oh. 00:38:12.827 --> 00:38:14.447 Duke: On the surface, you're like, okay, well what does that 00:38:14.447 --> 00:38:15.347 have to do with surface down? 00:38:15.347 --> 00:38:20.057 I'm like, oh, the thing is they're making you do one thing over and over and over 00:38:20.057 --> 00:38:23.557 and over again in isolation just to work the muscle memory just to , not to 00:38:23.557 --> 00:38:25.597 distract you with 20 things in between. 00:38:25.897 --> 00:38:29.347 It's just like you wanna learn flow designer build like 20 flows 00:38:29.842 --> 00:38:30.412 CJ: Right. 00:38:31.087 --> 00:38:33.217 Duke: like, and don't do anything in between that. 00:38:33.217 --> 00:38:34.117 Just do that. 00:38:34.582 --> 00:38:35.842 CJ: Just do that. 00:38:35.887 --> 00:38:38.033 Duke: Write, like, a gigantic script. 00:38:38.033 --> 00:38:43.253 Include a massive one, and spend, and anyways, we're going way over on this, 00:38:43.643 --> 00:38:47.840 but I understand what you mean though, take the effort to be in a different 00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:52.130 place in a different conversation and then apply that back to your own, 00:38:53.625 --> 00:38:54.555 CJ: Experience. 00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:55.140 Duke: Yeah, yeah. 00:38:55.140 --> 00:38:55.620 Experience. 00:38:55.620 --> 00:38:55.860 Yeah. 00:38:56.145 --> 00:38:56.415 CJ: Yeah, 00:38:57.135 --> 00:38:57.525 Duke: Alright. 00:38:57.525 --> 00:39:00.255 We are, we're way over, but I think this is like a good one, man. 00:39:00.255 --> 00:39:01.005 We did good on this one. 00:39:01.605 --> 00:39:01.845 Yeah. 00:39:07.110 --> 00:39:08.130 CJ: Yeah, that was great, dude. 00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:08.940 Yeah, it was awesome. 00:39:14.220 --> 00:39:15.570 Give myself a red heart. 00:39:16.065 --> 00:39:16.815 Duke: Thank you. 00:39:16.815 --> 00:39:17.595 When we post this. 00:39:20.850 --> 00:39:21.270 CJ: Thank you. 00:39:23.235 --> 00:39:24.165 Duke: All right, cool. 00:39:24.465 --> 00:39:24.735 All right. 00:39:24.735 --> 00:39:26.115 Someday we'll have an outro too. 00:39:26.700 --> 00:39:28.590 CJ: Yeah, we probably should at some point, but 00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:31.245 Duke: until then, we'll talk to you on the next one later folks. 00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:32.070 CJ: Later.