Duke: Yeah, so here we're with another one.
Finally,
CJ: back again like we never left,
man.
It has been a minute.
We gotta get this under control.
Duke: right?
So this one today, , this one came from me.
, 'cause I was on the , ServiceNow Discord channel and someone was asking
like literally how do I network?
And I thought, how have we not done an episode on that?
CJ: Right.
Like it just seems like it is embedded in the DNA of this podcast, right?
That we would have done this early or often.
Duke: Right.
So shame on us and we're gonna rectify that.
We're gonna talk about like literally how do you network?
It's hard, right?
I don't think I really even understood how to, or even thought
about it at all until knowledge 11.
CJ: I remember talking to you about networking very early after we met.
, and the Knowledge 11 thing tracks for me based on those early conversations.
Remember when I became like aware that networking was a thing that I should do.
Duke: and I had, like, I had already had.
A career.
You know, I had been a traveling consultant for five years and I
had spent a number of years at that media and advertising
company as their, magic admin.
And I knew people, I got along with people, I was happy, but I still didn't
have my finger on what networking was.
And at the time My mental model of myself was, I'm really shy and introverted and
once I self-described as introverted, I thought that meant that I don't
feel comfortable or it feels like work to involve myself with people.
So I was kind of happy being off to the side and not interacting.
And our knowledge 11, these back when knowledge was so small, they'd have
keynote speakers that were just like.
That was their job.
I'm a keynote speaker.
It had nothing, nothing to do with ServiceNow, but this guy came in and
he was there to talk about networking.
Tom Singer, if you ever get a chance, to see Tom Singer speak, THOM, please do it.
It's an amazing experience.
Anyway, , he was talking about something that he read where the findings were that.
Introverts built faster, bigger, more powerful networks.
I was like, what?
just like, off to the side.
I'm like, no.
And you said something to the extent of whereas an extrovert
is happy to talk about themselves in front of people, an introvert.
We'll try and keep the attention off themself and therefore, if they're
mindful, they'll just keep the conversation on the other people, asking
a lot of questions about the people that they're talking to in order to
like, keep the pressure off themselves.
And that makes the other person talk a lot, which makes
them remember you a lot more,
CJ: Yeah, because everybody likes to hear, you know, one, somebody who's
taking an interest in them, right?
Duke: Yes, exactly.
And then, but you come away with all the intel, assuming
you're an introvert, right?
But you come away with all the intel of, well, this is Bob, and Bob does this,
and Bob got his ServiceNow job this way.
And this is the things that Bob struggles with just because he kept
on asking counter questions and didn't bother talking about yourself.
Now.
At the time, that just blew the back of my head straight off.
I was like, it can't be, it can't be that, that this whole time I, I have held
the advantage and it's been a bit, and I feel like I take a more balanced approach
now, but if you saw this episode and thought, gosh, I need to know, learn how
to network, you're probably an introvert.
And I just wanna start by saying it's totally okay.
And in fact, it could be your advantage.
To an introvert, and so that's like the first thing I wanna bring to this episode.
CJ: Yeah, duke.
I think, you know, one of those things that's super counterintuitive
when you think about it, right?
hold on a second, you mean I don't have to talk in order
to, to network and meet people?
And it's like, well, you gotta talk a little bit.
But mostly, right, like extrovert, extroverts love to
talk and they especially love to talk about themselves, right?
And introverts typically like to listen.
So you know that, fosters a sense of, , connection right there.
it is weird, but it, I've found it to work too, because like you, I have
commonly identified myself as a introvert.
, and no one would believe that now.
Duke: Yeah, same.
Right?
That's what I mean.
Like over time you evolve to something that's a lot more balanced.
I don't think I'm either introverted or extroverted.
CJ: Yeah, it depends on the, it depends on the situation, right?
Duke: I guess I'd just like to say I'm, I'm just confident whatever
happens, maybe I do get planted into a big group of people.
I don't know.
I'm happy to make conversations, but I'm also happy to , ask most of the
questions, get them talking and then, I could take a backseat and take it all in.
CJ: absolutely.
Duke: Alright, so in typical CJ in the Duke fashion, we did a few minutes of just
point gathering beforehand, we just gonna go rapid fire and start talking about.
Things you should, , think about and strategies you can have for networking.
CJ: Boom.
Let's go with number one.
Duke: You hit him with number one.
CJ: Oh, I'll go with number.
Okay.
Let's see.
It has been a minute.
All right, I'm gonna go with number one.
First thing you wanna do, , like for me, is lead with what you can do for others,
and I think, duke and I are gonna have a, maybe a little bit of only on number one
and number two, we might have a little bit of a difference of opinion on these,
but that's what makes the show great.
for me networking is all about helping others, Putting yourself in a position
where you can use what others have done for you in the past to help
other people in the future, right?
, so I like to think about networking is, paying it forward and
building a network in that way.
Duke: So you start with what you can do,
CJ: Yeah.
I start with what I can do for you, I won't even be thinking about like building
a network or I'm not in a networking mode.
I might like a knowledge, I might be in a breakout and I'm listening to the speaker,
and then I hear something that resonates with an experience that I've had.
And they're like, this is a thing for us.
We haven't been able to solve this.
I was like, oh no, I solved that two years ago so I'll, I'll hang around to
after the talk, go up to the speaker and say, Hey, you know that thing you
talked about halfway through your speech?
I actually did that two years ago.
You wanna, you wanna talk about how I got there?
Right?
And then the next thing you know, like, this person's in my network.
Duke: Right.
Or you hear it in conversation or I, for this one, I was thinking
like when I ranked it one and two.
I was thinking about maybe you don't have the privilege of being in a group setting.
Maybe you're on LinkedIn, right?
Maybe.
Maybe that's the limit of your social reach at the moment.
And so when you're messaging somebody you don't know, for me at least,
it's start with what you want.
Right.
But, but it's actually so close that it's not even one and two.
It's like these things are one thing because don't tell somebody
what you want without telling them what you can give them.
CJ: Yeah.
Fair.
Right.
Duke: if I got a, LinkedIn message saying, Robert, I want
to a ServiceNow HR job, right?
Like, I, I'm, I'm good for you.
Right?
Tell me what.
CJ: bucks.
Duke: Tell me what you bring to that table.
Right?
Tell me what you bring.
So, if, if, if somebody else came to me and said, I want an HR job.
I've got the certification, , I've done like x number of years in it.
Here's something really cool that I did for a customer, or some massive outcome
that made their environment better.
Okay, you came to the table with street cred.
You've got something that you want, and I'm, I got a good
feeling that you can provide it.
Now, at the very least, my brain's automatically going through my network,
seeing what I can connect you with.
Right.
So I repent of my one first and second ranking.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: I just think that they, have to go together.
Right.
Whether you phrase it first or second, I don't So
CJ: no, I, yeah, I, I mean, that's a good point.
Duke: What do you want?
and, and how can you help?
. CJ: Yeah.
What do you want and how can you help?
Right.
Or how can you help, and what do you want?
Either way,
Duke: And this really wasn't on the list, but you know, take an inventory
of what you can do with confidence.
CJ: what I've found is the best way to know what I can do with confidence
is to try to teach somebody else, when I'm trying to explain a thing
to someone, there is no better way for me to to know about myself,
how much I know about that topic.
when you think about taking stock of the things that you can do with
confidence, I would say at least,
that if you can't explain to someone, , about that subject that
you think you can do with confidence, you probably don't yet have enough
knowledge to do it with confidence.
Duke: Hmm.
CJ: and, and the reason dug a little deep on that, right, is because
when you say, when you ask someone, Hey, so what can you take stock of
what you can do with confidence?
Like, what are you an expert in?
What can you do that other people can't?
Like, depending on the person, right?
Depending on how confident they are or not confident they are, They're
not gonna be able to accurately give you that information.
Some people are gonna give you things that they're not confident in, that they don't
have enough knowledge in, and other people are gonna sell themselves way short, But
this is, I think, a solid metric that you can use to say, okay, if I can explain
this topic to someone who only knows a little bit about it, and they can come
away from that knowing more, I probably have a level of competency in that topic.
Duke: Yep.
CJ: yeah, you can add that to your, quiver,
Duke: that dovetails so nicely with.
Another thing on the list, which was pay into the Bank of Karma.
We just thought about taking inventory of the stuff that you can do and test
yourself by explaining it to people, but.
Especially in the ServiceNow world, like there's all kinds
of places you can do that.
And by doing so, you feed into that visibility engine, So if you start,
threads on whatever it is you're an expert on and you get good at explaining it,
that will have a natural gravity to it.
It is like a passive effect network.
Think about when, , Mike Scow , and Mark Roff were starting to
build all their blogs, right?
Mark was, I remember one time he was kicking out like a blog
a day and nobody knew, right?
He didn't even, he didn't even know, right.
Is he gonna be a big thing?
But, the numbers have shown that he is excellent at, , doing this stuff.
And now, , these people have Titanic followings.
Because they took the time to explain stuff.
Even, uh, this isn't quite on topic, but, Collie Alexander, right when
she first started, she was like, I'm learning this stuff so everybody
else might as well learn too.
I learned, uh, UI policies today, so she'd make a video on here's
what I learned about UI policies.
And no, she wasn't teaching the experts, but she was teaching
everybody else that was just coming in and didn't know UI policies.
CJ: Yeah.
And reinforcing, , what she learned about UI policies the same time, right?
Like this whole thing is funny, Because all of these things
play into this one point, right?
Of, paying it to the Bank of Karma.
But if you do these things in a certain way, they all become self-reinforcing.
Duke: Yes.
CJ: there's just so much that everyone gets out of it when you pay it
forward, I learned this thing here.
You should learn this thing too.
Great.
Now all of a sudden people see me, paying it forward to the community,
and they start reaching out to me, Hey, I saw your thing on the
Duke: Yep.
Yep.
CJ: Right?
Duke: post from that thing three years ago.
Do you still have the,
CJ: Right.
Duke: do you still know how to do that?
No, I don't.
And actually, I.
even besides networking, just explaining it, I think a
reinforces it in your own mind.
Explaining takes a different neural pathway than.
Then \ discovering, at least I, that's the way I imagine it to happen.
And then you've got this library of stuff you've done.
Like I, how many times in 15 years have I said, oh yeah, I did that.
You just, um, you just, um, I don't know.
Shoot, I've gotta rediscover it again.
That took me 50 hours last time.
CJ: Right.
Duke: But if you could just take a library of the things you're learning.
Put them somewhere , I like to use ServiceNow community.
, get it somewhere visible and then , you get not only the effect of better
memorization for you, better lookup for you, but that magnetic name recognition
that comes with building good content.
CJ: So all of those things reinforce positive, , aspects of your persona and
your career and other folks, , experience that, that you're looking to build anyway.
Right?
So that's, the great thing.
this one thing gives you so many different valuable outcomes.
Duke: Yeah.
So what if maybe you're at the start of your ServiceNow career,
maybe you don't have huge accolades that you can brag about or explain,
or maybe you're just not there yet.
I.
you can still pay into the Bank of Karma by, reinforcing people
who are generating that content.
And again, this is, this goes beyond just being out of place, networking.
This is like your social media networking.
I remember the names of people who are constantly, reacting to
my content or commenting on it.
Like I remember those people because they make me feel nice.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Duke: and so you better believe that if one of those people comes and asks me
a question, I'm gonna take a breath.
I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and I'm gonna pay them back in my attention.
, CJ: those names stick out to you, right?
I'm , in a bunch of local Facebook groups Same thing on LinkedIn, right?
You see over and over the people who are liking your posts, who comment in on
your posts, , who's sharing your posts.
Those people become.
De facto members of your community, AKA members of your network.
Right.
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: You know, and so when they come and say, Hey, duke, , there's this, , thing
I'm trying to do and I'm really stuck.
I wonder if you can point me in the right direction for you're
thinking, oh, I know Jack.
Right?
Like, I see Jack on every one of my posts.
Yeah.
Jack, I can help you.
Yeah, sure.
Let's jump , on a Zoom, Boom.
That's networking.
Duke: And like for some of us who grew up a little bit before social media,
and then went through the whole, boom of social media, I think we have a bit
of a cynical approach to interactions like that, in terms of people's feeds
and different social media channels.
But I mean.
There's a reason that stuff takes off.
CJ: Right.
Duke: there's a reason people make content, , do you think anybody would be
posting content to ServiceNow community or LinkedIn if there was no, like
mechanism, all you got was replies,
CJ: Yeah.
I
Duke: I don't know if I would, you know, I, I like feeling good.
I like knowing that my content helped people.
CJ: Yeah, back in the day, , of the good old message board, PHP and all that kind
of good stuff, wasn't a like, and so what you did typically was, you'd have
to reply , thank you, or this was awesome or, you know, appreciate it, right?
And that, I mean, ultimately I think likes are more efficient, right?
They, they clutter up the space less, but.
Because likes are now so low effort, ? And so efficient, taking the time to
make a comment, And that shows that you actually consumed the content, right?
Or got the message or found the value, that makes you stand out.
Even better.
Like if you share it and say, Hey, this thing was super valuable for me, I wanna
share this to my network so that you all can get the benefit of that too.
folks really notice stuff like that, So if you're looking to , get the
attention, build a network with folks that you don't otherwise know, you
probably can't get in front of in person.
This is a solid way of doing it.
Duke: We talked a lot about social media and LinkedIn, but LinkedIn is
not everything networking, right?
It's just, an element of it.
So I.
CJ: don't know about you, man.
I'm in the matrix.
I'm, I'm stuck.
I'm digital.
Fully digital.
Duke: Yeah, but I mean, we got knowledge coming up, And so like,
hopefully you don't have time to be on LinkedIn much at knowledge.
I'm gonna have all kinds of time to be on LinkedIn at Knowledge
'cause I'm not going to knowledge.
Ah,
CJ: Oh man.
Duke: wa wa
CJ: Uh, pour one out for Duke, y'all.
Duke: yeah.
Whatever it is.
Good.
Everybody have fun?
but Networking one on one, go to the events.
CJ: Yeah.
Right.
Duke: to the events, , knowledge is a once a year thing.
And not everybody has their privilege of just opening up the wallet and
shelling out that kind of money to go.
Not everybody is allowed to go, buy their work.
Um.
And there goes the train of thought, just
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: no go to the event.
I was thinking about the event.
I was like, my mind was at Knowledge for like a second there.
Um, but there's snugs
CJ: I, that's where I was thinking too,
Duke: both official and unofficial.
Part of the whole going to events, like, okay, you're at the event.
Especially if you were like me back in the day, , how do I not be a wallflower?
How do I go an event and not feel uncomfortable and shy and
in the background, how do I still get something out of that?
And I think the secret is , we talked about when you're an
introvert, , you keep the pressure on somebody else to do the talking.
But to do that, you have to have a battery of questions.
CJ: you need to know how to have a conversation that doesn't
shut down the conversation.
Duke: That's right.
Yeah.
Something, something that they don't have to say yes or no to
CJ: right.
Duke: Something that's got like a little bit of a twist to it to get them thinking.
But , as I said, go to the events.
You have, , meetups that are official and unofficial, like that's a great
thing to do, to build a network, find all the ServiceNow people in your
area and ask them if there's a snug
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Ask every single one of 'em on LinkedIn.
Like they don't know.
You're asking everybody else right now, you're starting like
2, 3, 4 different conversations.
That's four different pieces of your network that you didn't have before.
CJ: And boom.
And now that might multiply.
'cause once you go to the meetup now, all those folks that you asked if they
were coming, if they show up, you've already cold opened those conversations
by, by reaching out to them previously and say, Hey, are you going to the thing?
And then now we're all at the thing.
Hey, it's good to see you.
Remember I, that was me who asked you if you were coming.
It's great that you've made it right
Duke: put a face to a name.
Yeah, that's a great thing too, right?
As you shake somebody's hand, like it's great to finally
put a face to the name or,
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was great to finally meet you in person, all those kinds, like,
you know, is this the first time you've been to this type of event?
this is my first snug, have you ever been this here before?
What do I need to expect?
, that sort of thing.
Duke: Yeah.
What advice would you give a first time knowledge attendee?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like it's day one,
CJ: Drink plenty of water, bring comfortable shoes.
Duke: man.
Every year.
Every year?
CJ: Seriously.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
CJ: But yeah, touch grass, man, , you gotta go to the events,
you gotta meet people in person.
, you gotta do all of that stuff.
Then the next one is, embrace the stuff that you don't know, Nobody's an expert
on everything, and I think some of the best conversations that I've ever had are
when I'm not an expert and I find someone who is both an expert and passionate
about the thing that we're talking about.
Right.
Like if I find that guy who is super into flow designer, yeah,
let's talk, I have no idea.
Let's talk about, Ooh, you can do that.
Like Duke, every time we talk, right?
you're like, dude, I just figured out you can do this.
Super cool, awesome thing with Flow Designer.
It's like, what?
man, I'm like, I'm still a legacy workflow editor, dude.
Duke: This is the paradox too.
I think when you're on a knowledge deficit, you think that asking
somebody a question in your deficit area is like drawing energy away
from them and therefore a bad thing.
But it doesn't have to be if somebody asks me an intelligent question.
All I can think of for the next week is I wonder how it worked out for them.
CJ: Right.
Duke: I'm like, I have to stop myself from messaging them the next day.
Like, how did it work?
Tell me how it worked.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: So it's like you don't know it, right?
You asked me this question and I'm intrigued, but I haven't
stopped thinking about it.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: have me at an advantage now, the gravity is on my side
pulling into your network.
CJ: Exactly.
now I know who you are, you started off this thing wanting me to know who you are.
Now I know who you are, but not only do I know who you are,
I'm invested in who you are.
Duke: Yep.
And I know where your deficit.
CJ: yes.
Duke: Yep.
a, another great example of a question you could use at knowledge as you
meet new people is ask them what do you specialize in, in ServiceNow?
Or what do you do in the ecosystem?
And cross-reference that with your deficits.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like, oh, you're a flow designer expert.
Hey, I've always wondered this about flow designer.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: now , unless they're busy and they have to go or whatever,
now , they're happy to talk about that.
And have you ever met somebody who doesn't wanna talk about their expertise?
CJ: Never.
Duke: Seriously.
So it's just, that's just, it is such a great conversational hack.
if talking to strangers is new to you, if it's intimidating to you, just do that.
Ask them what their expertise is.
Cross reference that you gotta be quick, right?
Cross reference that with your deficits, and then ask them an intelligent question.
CJ: Yeah.
You know, and Duke, I, I wanna just add one final thing onto this point,
Is that remember in a lot of spaces everyone is here for the same reason,
? Everyone shares at least one common interest, and that's service Now.
And, and so no matter what, you think, oh man, I don't
have anything I can talk about.
Always, always, always fall back to what is everyone's
common interest in this space.
Go from there.
So when you're thinking about all of that stuff, don't freeze up.
We're all here because we love ServiceNow.
All you gotta do is bring that up.
Duke: If I went back to my.
shy days being uncomfortable, being in conversations, I swear
I would go up to ask somebody and say what's a good question to ask
somebody at an event like this?
CJ: Oh yeah,
Duke: Like just like put it out there, be vulnerable.
Like nobody's gonna be like, oh, more you wanna talk to people?
Like people aren't like that.
CJ: No, because everyone's feeling the same, there's a bunch of folks
who are just this is what they do, and they're always into it.
But most people are there thinking, I.
Oh man.
how do I start these conversations?
, I find myself still there sometimes too, right?
Like, I'm just hanging out at knowledge and, oh crap,
that's, such and such, right?
Let me go over and talk to her.
And it's like, you know, and then you walk up and it's like, oh crap.
What am I gonna talk about?
Like, what am I gonna say?
Hey, I, I saw you on LinkedIn.
Sometimes,
everyone gets that, we're all human.
We're all trying to do the same thing, ? Give yourself some
grace, ? Because everyone needs to give themselves some grace.
Duke: Still in line with the embrace the stuff you don't know.
, even if you're not at knowledge and going back to , maybe the internet's
the only network you got right now.
You don't have to be the source of the answer in order to get network
credit for the problem being solved.
CJ: Oh yeah, that's right.
Duke: A lot of people think , oh, Robert does all this content and he gives so
much to ServiceNow community or whatever.
but I have asked more questions than posted answers to content.
Uh, far and away, and it's, you get passive network increments from that
because it was like, oh, remember that conversation Robert started
and we all learned about this?
Or maybe it doesn't have an answer, but some of the best minds coalesce
against, , around this problem.
It's interesting.
And then everybody has a chat, but you were part of that chat.
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Duke: nobody's keeping a scoreboard up for all these points or whatever, but this
is things that people notice passively.
CJ: Well, that's the whole point too, of having a network, right?
The whole point of having a network is when you're in that space and Duke, you're
asking about how do we do an integration?
And I'm like, yeah, well, you know, I actually know the person who is
like an expert at, soap integrations, and that's what you're stuck with.
Let me get them in this chat, ? Boom.
Now all three of us in the chat, you can pick his brain, her brain about,
, whatever it is with soap, calls, and and so on and so forth, and now boom.
Now we've got a network, I've introduced you to somebody my network where you
found value and I've done you that favor.
Well now if I, now I've done you a favor, , I'm going to one
wonder, how it worked out for you.
but two, now I'm gonna remember you.
Duke: Yep.
It all goes back to the paying into the Bank of Karma thing too, so
get involved in the conversations, contribute with questions, responses,
or answers, whichever the three of those you can provide at the time.
And , good conversations, draw energy, man, like how many times over on
community, on Slack, on Discord I've had like these random questions,
something I'm just curious about.
And all of a sudden there's like dozens of replies and the whole
kit and caboodle of name names are coming in and talking about this.
And so if you've been involved, if you're in that scrum.
You're just somebody just starting to network and now you're in a conversation.
And Earl and Travis and Corey and people are in this thread pay the
Karma Bank, like their posts, but also send them LinkedIn invites
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: with the message.
Hey, I love that conversation.
We are in, I learned this.
Bam, now you're the last face.
They remember for the, for the next hour.
CJ: Absolutely.
now, not only have you made that connection, but you've
made that connection in a way that makes you memorable.
Duke: Bingo.
Be memorable.
You got a lot to say on that too, right?
CJ: You do like, honestly, that's key for me, Is always stand out.
A recovering introvert, there's always, always, always this pressure to blend in,
Oh, there's a bunch of people up here.
Let me just go and slide in this, group and just be one of the crowd.
Well, nobody notices you if you're one of the crowd.
And the whole point of networking is to be noticed.
It's to be memorable is to create, this view about yourself
and other people's head.
so that they think when they have something that could help people, They
think of you as one of the people who is looking for a certain thing, And it's
like, oh, so now it is passive, right?
Like one all, you have to, if you are memorable upfront.
Right.
I know.
Oh man, I know who Duke is, right?
Like, yeah, absolutely.
Oh crap.
There's an SPM project.
Well, I know that's Duke's thing, right?
Like, Hey, you know what's up, man?
I, this SPM project you, you available Here, let me hook you guys up.
Boom.
Just like that.
But that happens when you stand out, right?
, so you can't plan in, and I know there's this, just, this is a huge
amount of pressure, to, just wanna say hello and just fade in and let
other people carry the conversation and, and no, I don't care if you
think you, yeah, be aggressive, right?
I don't care if you think you're gonna sound dumb, right?
Take the risk, sound dumb.
Let somebody correct you.
That's memorable too.
Duke: One of my favorite examples of this was, it was early days of knowledge,
probably 14 or 15, and it was in Vegas.
and I'd, come off working for this account and there was this guy.
He is like, Hey, we're gonna ramp up some ServiceNow discipline on our side too.
I need to hire a good ServiceNow person.
will there be any acknowledge?
I'm like, there's gonna be hundreds.
Like, how could you even,
but it didn't really dawn on me until, after there's just hundreds
of people that are passing by.
You're not conversing with each of them.
and I, I said it half jokingly, just wear a sign.
wear a sign that you're hiring.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: And I said it half jokingly, but the dude showed up with a sign
CJ: Love it.
Duke: that he wore, like a little placard that said he's, hiring for these things.
And he just wore it around like absolutely shameless.
didn't care that it looked just some of ridiculous, but , he
got exactly what he wanted.
And , think about all the people at Knowledge that you've seen that just wear
something that's just a little bit off.
CJ: Yeah, man.
Duke: they peacock a bit.
Like, I remember vivid charts, the first couple knowledges we had the
bright green glow in the dark sneakers
CJ: Yes.
Duke: And strips for that matter.
It's okay to have , some kind of visual flare, wear bright red shoes.
Like just when, when we ever get the opportunity to just go all out like that.
CJ: hardly ever.
And this is one of those times where you can legit say to yourself, I'm
gonna stand out and standing out is me furthering my professional
career, I'm going to wear the.
Best, most, kick ass shoes that I have in the closet.
Right?
And I'm gonna do that because I know that people are gonna comment on them.
And you know, people always comment on my shoes, right?
And, which is weird because I'm not a shoe guy at all either.
But like, you know,
Duke: It's a scale.
Really, I,
from my end of the perspective, you're totally a.
CJ: Ha.
Fair enough.
I do have some very nice Vegas shoes.
Right.
and people always comment on those and that starts the conversation too.
Now you're the guy with the kicks, And boom, here you are.
You might be at home listening to thinking, man, that sounds
easy, but it can't be that easy.
Well, actually it can.
Duke: Yeah, it is.
It it, like some of it's not even I know some people can pull off
flamboyant, like a lot better, right?
Some people can have, can pull off that visual, wear something oddball that works.
You know, that hasn't always been me or ever or ever been me.
but also just pay attention to what your mama told you, right?
Like, comb your hair and just take a few seconds and be mindful of your appearance,
CJ: Yes.
Duke: and your posture and all those invisible social cues
that we calculate effortlessly without even thinking about it.
think about it a little bit beforehand.
Do I look good in this shirt?
Pay attention to that stuff.
It matters.
We don't like to say it matters, but it does,
CJ: It does.
Duke: stand up straight.
You speak from your gut project, your voice, firm handshake.
CJ: Oh man.
Oh, I got a handshake story, dude.
So,
so, everywhere I go, people comment on my handshake, man, you've got a
great handshake of nice firm handshake.
this is crazy.
And the reason that I have such a great handshake and I'm, I'm, I'm owning
it at this point, it is apparently a really good handshake, is because I
learned how to do it in high school.
and the high school I went to , had a class that was, test taking skills
and life skills all rolled up in one.
and one of the things, that the teacher taught us was , how
to do a firm handshake.
How to execute that in a way to make you feel connected with the
person that you're talking to.
So eye contact firm handshake, be memorable.
Right,
Duke: that's the trick, right?
Is look at the eyes, not the hand.
CJ: right.
You know,
Duke: Even me, like I.
CJ: It's gotta be firm, and I hate saying this but you will be memorable
if you have like a very weak handshake too, I hate all of these stereotypes
and all this other kind of stuff, right?
But look, it's true.
It's true.
Duke: It.
Yeah.
I mean, everybody knows that person.
They like socially that everybody, everybody likes this person and nobody
can explain why, because it's all of these things that we calculate
without even thinking about it.
They know how to dress well.
They go well groomed, they're well postured.
they have all those subtle cues of confidence
CJ: Yes.
They project.
Yeah.
Duke: And a a firm handshake is.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say I think it, like, it, it had a masculine origin,
CJ: Yep.
Duke: Where it I'm gonna show you that I'm strong and I'm not a pushover
and a respectful show of peace.
Like I'm unarmed and I am strong and I'm meeting you in the middle.
CJ: That's exactly where it comes from.
And it used to be, if we wanna get really technical in the history of it, right?
It used to be grabbing the forearm, Because that signal,
you know, that prevented you from going for your sword, right?
And, and it showed, I come in peace and I'm willing to be vulnerable.
Like I can't go for my weapon.
to show you that, , and it just kind of evolved from there.
But so many people comment on my handshake that I have to say at this
point that it matters, you know?
And, so invest the time and crafting a firm handshake.
Make the solid eye contact when you do it.
Be memorable.
Duke: I mean, it's scary at first too, When you're first learning, especially
the eye contact piece, if you just like bite down inside until it's done,
there's that invisible respect layer.
That's, that's, that's a, that's, um, a.
Also work on your stutter.
Yeah.
Okay.
But if you really don't know how to do a handshake, okay.
, squeeze hard, harder than you think you should,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: I promise you, you're not gonna hurt them,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: So, squeeze harder than you think you should.
And if you don't know when to let go, don't let go.
The other person, just let the other person decide.
CJ: Love that.
Duke: Oh
CJ: if you, if you don't know, then you don't know.
Duke: good one.
10 minutes on handshake, 20 minutes on everything.
CJ: Yes.
And, you should still be shaking the person's hand right now.
. Duke: Are you a two pump guy or are you a three pump guy?
CJ: somewhere between two and three, depending on like the other person,
I kind of sense and reciprocate.
Um, you know, it was funny, I was shaking hands with, someone I met yesterday.
He was like a 30 pump guy
Duke: Oh yeah.
Well, different like national cultures around it too, right?
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's true.
He's resilient, right?
He's not.
He's uh,
and he was like just very enthusiastic about the handshake, right?
And he just kept going.
And so I like it was, I don't know.
But the point is, right, like, you know, everyone shakes
hands a little bit differently.
but.
Do you?
It should be memorable.
It should be firm.
It ain't got to be A bear trap or whatever you call it.
But it shouldn't be, memorable because it's weak either.
Duke: Okay.
I got two small ones that we should probably cover right before we go.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: All right.
What, how does the saying go?
If the mountain won't come to Mohamad, then Mohamad will go to the mountain?
Is that the way they say it?
CJ: I think that's the way I remember it.
Duke: So when I say that, it is just kind of like, you just gotta do it.
Like get up and do something, we given you plenty of ideas,
both digitally and in person.
But you gotta do it, the network doesn't come to you.
You must go to the network.
CJ: Yes,
Duke: Um,
CJ: percent.
you cannot network without showing up,
Duke: Right.
Right.
Without doing something, you can't do the whole, well, I don't
know how to make it handshake.
Well, okay.
The first person you meet in handshake with, if you're bad at it, you are
gonna be at least twice as good.
The next one?
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And there's so many people you're gonna meet, like you'll forget.
the times when you were bad at things like I was bad at.
I have a lot of awkward conversations that, and I've forgotten most of them.
I didn't forget them at the time where I felt like really cringey about it.
Right?
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
CJ: But I can't remember them now.
go and then and do the thing.
? And don't worry about so much if you're gonna be, , cringey, if you're
gonna be awkward, like everybody's gonna be awkward a couple times.
I'm still awkward now sometimes.
Duke: it is like any sport, right?
You just start playing a sport, the first like few swings are gonna be a
little bit weird and uncomfortable, but you'll get the hang of it quick.
I guess the last one is I get a lot of questions like, who should I network?
Should I talk to recruiters?
Should I talk to product owners?
Should I talk to other consultants that are like me?
The answer is yes.
You could like network with the servers, you just
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: the law of large numbers.
If you talk to enough people, you're gonna find these weird
connections, that can store value.
Don't worry about pruning your network or, or, or optimizing your
network until you have a huge one.
So, until then, talk to everybody.
CJ: I a hundred percent agree with you.
And I will emphasize that, even to the point of talking
to, , the servers or folks that who are outside of the ServiceNow
industry, network with, everyone.
it's funny, right?
But some of the best conversations I've had, have been in places that
had absolutely nothing at all to do with ServiceNow, ? But someone
will ask, Hey, so what do you do?
It's like, oh yeah, I'm a software consultant.
I do independent consultant in ServiceNow space.
They're like, oh, oh, I've heard of, yeah.
Duke: A few years back we went to, Yogi Bear Campground to celebrate 4th of July.
We just went by ourselves, but , we camped next to this family, and
that's exactly what happened is she's like, what do you do?
I'm like, I work with this product called ServiceNow.
And she's like, oh, I use ServiceNow.
And she's , big on the GRC end of it.
Now we're like, we go camping with them every single year.
So yes, network with everybody.
Matter of fact, talking about the servers thing, like the next time I'm in the
presence of a server, I'm gonna ask them like, what is the best icebreaker
question you have walking up to a group of five people that you don't know?
CJ: Yeah, I mean,
Duke: I'll bet you they know the answer to
CJ: I bet they do.
I bet they do.
I bet they are likely experts in networking and small talk.
Duke: And I, and I bet you they don't get into question like that, in 10
years of serving and they would be happy to, like, that would probably
be a great conversation to have.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
so this is one that's not on our list, duke, but I think I,
this is a great segue for it.
Always keep yourself open to learning, , new ideas in unexpected places.
and that means learning from, , unexpected people, But it also means learning in
unexpected mediums or on topics that might not even, you think, might not
even be related to, things that you do, it's just always just be open to
receiving knowledge, From places that.
You wouldn't conventionally think, well, I'm looking for Service now knowledge.
I probably don't need to listen to this podcast on organizational psychology.
Yeah, you do.
Duke: Oh man.
Like we talk about that a ton.
You like the whole like recombination of ideas,
CJ: Yes,
Duke: wanna get a good example When I was learning how to do some
basic leather work, my teacher was like, oh, you're lucky.
Like I learned how to work leather in Japan.
And they don't teach you how to make a thing.
It's just here's, here's a craft knife and here's three miles of leather and
just cut it into objects this size.
CJ: Oh.
Duke: On the surface, you're like, okay, well what does that
have to do with surface down?
I'm like, oh, the thing is they're making you do one thing over and over and over
and over again in isolation just to work the muscle memory just to , not to
distract you with 20 things in between.
It's just like you wanna learn flow designer build like 20 flows
CJ: Right.
Duke: like, and don't do anything in between that.
Just do that.
CJ: Just do that.
Duke: Write, like, a gigantic script.
Include a massive one, and spend, and anyways, we're going way over on this,
but I understand what you mean though, take the effort to be in a different
place in a different conversation and then apply that back to your own,
CJ: Experience.
Duke: Yeah, yeah.
Experience.
Yeah.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: Alright.
We are, we're way over, but I think this is like a good one, man.
We did good on this one.
Yeah.
CJ: Yeah, that was great, dude.
Yeah, it was awesome.
Give myself a red heart.
Duke: Thank you.
When we post this.
CJ: Thank you.
Duke: All right, cool.
All right.
Someday we'll have an outro too.
CJ: Yeah, we probably should at some point, but
Duke: until then, we'll talk to you on the next one later folks.
CJ: Later.