Leo Dion (host): Welcome to another episode at Empower Apps.
I'm your host, Leo Dion.
Today I am joined by Adrian Eves.
Adrian, thank you so much for coming on.
Adrian Eves (guest): Thank you so much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here.
Yeah, it's, this is gonna be a great time.
Leo Dion (host): I am not, I'm really happy to have you on.
I know how exhausting it's to travel.
You just came back from WW.
You did you get to go to the actual event?
Adrian Eves (guest): I did I didn't get the quote unquote golden ticket.
I was really more there to support my friends at Apple.
Who've been working on things that they finally have gotten to reveal.
And it's funny that you mentioned traveling and stuff, because
I've only been back home from WW for a little over an hour.
I took a red eye home.
Leo Dion (host): Wow.
Oh my gosh.
Adrian, thank you so much for being able to do this.
This is, this is great.
I really, really happy about that.
One thing we wanted to talk about is just your current work situation.
So you've been, you were at Disney, is that correct?
For quite some time.
Adrian Eves (guest): that is correct.
Leo Dion (host): were recently laid off.
Yeah.
You wanna talk about that situation a little bit?
What was that like?
Adrian Eves (guest): I would love to.
So I've had a bit of a cycle with it personally.
Cause first I got the news and it was kind of like, it didn't really hit me.
I was just kinda oh yeah, I'm one the layoff.
And then that weekend it was, it was rough.
I had a lot of questions about my own self worth and stuff,
and I was like, oh, why me?
But then I also saw like some of the other folks that were getting laid off
and I and one of my friends his name's ish, he explained the way layoffs
work to me is, it's not like they're getting fired, but it's really just
a corporate thing where they, they have to reduce roll counts and such.
And so I was able to see that.
It really wasn't a personal decision and it's really easy to take personally,
but I have made peace with it.
I have enjoyed my time there.
I'm really glad I got to be there and I'm excited to find out what's next
personally and why I do not know what that is at the time of recording.
I've got some things in the pipeline and we'll just have to see where they lead.
Leo Dion (host): Were you surprised to see Disney at WW?
Bob Iger specifically there to talk about the Vision Pro.
Adrian Eves (guest): That was a little tough.
I'm, I'm gonna say, and I'm happy that they get to do the division
Pro, pro stuff, but cause see, I was watching the keynote and I felt
like a big wave of nostalgia, cause I used to work over at Apple and I,
I, I loved, I loved working there.
And so I was already like in the prime zone to feel
like, like heartfelt things.
And then, Yeah, then that happened.
I was like, oh man.
Ooh.
It was like, they got me.
But but no, that's really exciting.
And honestly, I'm, I would be lying if I said I wasn't going
to use my Vision Pro to make Mickey Mouse around my furniture.
Leo Dion (host): Nice.
Nice.
Yeah, so good luck with your endeavors.
I'm.
99% sure you're gonna find a new gig.
Adrian Eves (guest): Appreciate you for that.
But it's very kind.
Leo Dion (host): yeah, I think with layoffs, it is gonna sound a little
coldhearted, but like us engineers who have skills have a lot easier
finding new gigs than people who are quote unquote unskilled laborers.
So I, I'm.
I'm hopeful that most people can find new jobs pretty easily in
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, I hope so too.
It's, it's, it's really sad to see cause I, I, it's funny, I feel like
people use LinkedIn most during job hunt season, and I'm using LinkedIn
a lot lately, for obvious reasons.
And you see it a lot.
People get dispatched and laid off and it's, it's sad because it's like some
people have had 25 year histories at their company and it's just that's it.
And it's kinda oh.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
So let's get into WWDC What was, what's been your favorite videos this year?
There was a ton.
Trust me, I'm, I'm thinking of it, like 50% of my bookmarks.
But how, how, what, what were the things that you were like,
oh my gosh, that's so cool.
Adrian Eves (guest): So there were a lot that were really, really, really cool.
We had about 175 sessions this year, and so I tried to limit it down to three.
And I want, I think these three are really, really special to me because
I know the people who were giving the talks and they, I don't know.
Some of 'em have given the talks before, but also the ones
that have given talks before.
This was a pretty big moment for them.
So for instance, one of my top ones is Meet assistive access,
and you probably know him.
Alan Leary delivered that
Leo Dion (host): Can I, can I tell you a funny story about Alan?
I I invited him to the, I invited him to the podcast and this was before
I knew about his new position and it was like a week before he got the job.
And I saw the tweet right after I DMed him and I was like, oh yeah,
he's, he's not gonna come on.
Oh, I just, just missed him.
By that
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah,
Leo Dion (host): that,
Adrian Eves (guest): that would've been a good one.
I'm
Leo Dion (host): an awesome, But yeah, like assistive access, it's just awesome
to see the work that Apple's doing when it comes to accessibility in that realm.
Adrian Eves (guest): It is really, and is, that is a very, very special
work piece of work that they've done.
It's been, it's been a long time coming, but it's been incredible.
I'm so happy to see it out in the wild.
Leo Dion (host): Did you work on that?
If you mind me asking?
Adrian Eves (guest): did not work on assistive access.
That was those were other members of the accessibility team doing that.
Alan I'm gonna be careful and I'm not gonna speak on what Alan did or didn't
do because he's not here to correct me or also speak on behalf of it.
But I will say that he is very qualified to give the session.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Yeah.
You wanna explain what assistive access is and how, how that
fits in accessibility Exactly.
Adrian Eves (guest): Yes.
And so one of the reasons I love assistive access so much is because
a lot of times when we think of accessibility, we think of vision
accessibility with things like voiceover and we think of, motor accessibility,
things like switch control, and we think of things that help with
our hearing, like subtitles or.
Boosts, et cetera.
We, a lot of people don't really think of cognitive accessibility.
And to be fair, it's a, when you think of it in terms of the other three
ones that I just mentioned, it's a bit different and harder to design around.
And so assistive access does a beautiful job of giving developers a means to
really tackle that by just creating interfaces that make a lot more sense.
I have one of my best friends in the whole world is a gentleman who
has Down Syndrome and he consist of access is right up his alley.
He's a very bright, bright person, can tell you literally anything,
any plot of any movie, any actor, any year a movie was done.
It's incredible.
And, but the only thing, sometimes he gets frustrated using his
phone and something like this.
Just awesome because it doesn't insult anybody.
It just makes it easier to use and a lot friendlier to use.
Leo Dion (host): What.
How would you convince a company to use this in their app?
Adrian Eves (guest): So it's in, so it, that's a tricky thing because
as it is in a lot of companies, Even getting support for voiceover
in your app can actually be tricky.
It can be a, a hill that you have to be ready to die on, but I think that
this is a hill worth dying on as well.
Maybe I should pick a different metaphor cause that is morbid, but but so
essentially I think that if you consider that you want your app to be used by
everybody, you have to consider that.
We have a po.
We have a world population of about 8 billion people, and we live in a world
where at least 15% of those people experience some kind of disability.
And if we really wanna make something for everyone, we really
need to make sure that that 15% is not being cut out of the equation.
And more often than not, just by putting something, this is a common
courtesy to put into your app.
So putting something like assistive access or voiceover into your app
is a common courtesy to folks.
But when people see it done well, it brings them considerable joy because
they actually feel like you're thinking of them and that they, that you want
them to use your app and they're just, they're just folks like you and me.
They just use their phones differently than, than you and I do.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Yeah, we'll definitely put a link to Allen's talk at WW.
Definitely take, take a look at that.
That's pretty awesome.
Speaking of accessibility you also wrote down the create
accessible spatial experiences,
Adrian Eves (guest): Yes
Leo Dion (host): you wanna explain the accessibility vision os story there.
Adrian Eves (guest): so I've, this talk was delivered by my
friends Dan Golden and Drew Haas.
And they have done some incredible work on Vision Os, and as you can
imagine vision os especially the mission at Apple is we're the apple's
very big on accessibility and vision.
OS is not going to be an exception to the rule there.
And so
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Adrian Eves (guest): I will say, like with Alan, they're very qualified to
deliver this, this talk, this session.
And they go over a lot of things like pointing accessibility and such.
And you would imagine, oh, it's.
We have iOS and iPad OS apps and watchOS apps that they use.
Things like voiceover.
But this is going to be a different experience because you,
because the vision os relies so much on eyes and hand gestures.
We also have to think about those folks who use their devices, who,
for instance, do not have all that eye mobility or that hand mobility,
and so they can use things like, Pointing gestures and such to
operate with these interfaces.
And also the ability to have the feedback of a voice reading
your content on the screen.
And I don't wanna I don't wanna jump too far into it, but it's just a really
good overview as we start getting into spatial computing about how to really
do some good accessible practice.
And I highly recommend it to anybody.
Who's starting to consider projects with Vision Os because the SDK is not even
out at the time of recording, and you could really do yourself a favor beating
a head start, because I'm gonna say the, the age old saying that when you start
your app, it's way better to consider accessibility white at that stage than
it is to try to shoehorn it in later.
And this talk does a really, really, really good job of helping with that.
Leo Dion (host): I, I would say accessibility is more important for
this than it is for any other device.
I, I, I had questions talking about the interaction with the device okay, what
if you're like, is there an alternative to pin, like tapping your fingers?
Is there an alternative to looking at something like, So I haven't seen
this video, but this sounds right up my alley cuz I'm really curious how
you can set up those alternatives.
Not, not just for accessibility, but just in general.
I could see people being like, okay, I'm tired of doing this one thing.
I want to be, have an alternative.
So yeah, that looks, that sounds awesome.
I'm, I'm gonna definitely check that out after this.
Adrian Eves (guest): And one thing that that's also worth considering is
that one, I don't think it's people necessarily realize it, that vision
os the the Vision Pro is that you're able to connect devices to it like
a game controller, for instance.
So that also can assist with navigation.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I would assume so.
Did they say anything about storage on it?
If you want to pull off offline content.
Adrian Eves (guest): I don't recall.
And also,
Leo Dion (host): Okay.
Adrian Eves (guest): so yeah, I'm, I'm, I don't know on that one.
Leo Dion (host): Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, cuz they had the person watch the movie on the airplane, but wifi
find the airplane sometimes sucks.
So could you download it on the app like offline, like you could
with Disney Plus or something?
I'd be curious about that.
Sorry that was total tangent
Adrian Eves (guest): No, no, it's a valid question, a valid use case.
And now I'm sure after this talk I'm going to go down a rabbit
hole to see if I can be done.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, so you, we know that there's a two hour battery, right?
Like I know that that's a bottleneck with the device, which hopefully
you can charge it on the airplane while you're using it so you can
watch the two and a half hour movie.
But yeah, so that's just one of the many questions that I'll have.
I don't know.
Are you getting the developer kit?
I would assume so, right?
Adrian Eves (guest): I, I would very much to apply
Leo Dion (host): Yeah,
Adrian Eves (guest): because I went to a session, I went to a
lab about developing games for vision os and I came in with two
ideas and I came out with 10.
And the problem is that I have 10 now and
going
Leo Dion (host): new domains too, right?
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.
Oh yeah.
No, I wish I actually, I did buy a, I did buy a domain, but it's not, I don't
think it's what for people think it is.
And but I, I'm excited to talk about that down the road.
But yeah, like the problem is I have 10 ideas and with somebody like me,
that's 10 competing things in my head, then so the problem is picking one.
Leo Dion (host): I was telling people over the weekend, well over
the week, I've been working on four apps at the same time, like trying
to digest all this two, two current apps and two new apps that I've
been waiting for WWDC to work on.
And it's like I just feel like I've been under the fire hose w
whatever for the last week and a half with all this new stuff.
Yeah, I, I, I understand.
Speaking of shared space enhance your iPad and iPhone
apps for the shared space.
So my understanding, I, I did wa I think I did watch this one, is that
like you can bring in iPhone and iPad apps, like basically whole ho
like whole hog into vision os right?
Adrian Eves (guest): it's wonderful.
Yes.
And there's a really, I, I would say, so my friend John Mark gave this talk
and the whole one, I feel like the real MVP of this talk was the hover effect
modifier was because in visionOS as opposed to iOS, in iOS you tap your
phone to interact with controls, right?
And you, you get different feedbacks.
You can get a visual feedback or you can get a haptic feedback.
But I don't know about you.
I don't want something buzzing on my face when I press it, and so what?
But
Leo Dion (host): timer's done.
Thanks.
Adrian Eves (guest): oh, that's, oh, and speaking of timers My friend Devin
Davies is working on, he's already hard at work, like designing his app
crouton to interface with Vision Pro.
And honestly, I would, I would get a Vision Pro just to use Crouton
because can you imagine cooking and then, but having the recipe of the
app right next to you, you don't have to touch your phone or get dirty cuz
you have like flour on your hands.
You can put it in a window off to the side while you are just cooking
and like just ref, refer to it.
And like you could probably cook way more efficiently.
And Devin, if you're listening to this, I am genuinely excited.
I really am.
Leo Dion (host): Was there anything else with enhancing iPad and iPhone apps?
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I was, I, I think I was kind of on a, on a
train there and I hopped off my bad.
But so the, the hover, hover effect is a modifier that you can use.
To give feedback to elements when you have them selected, using your,
your eyes in, in vision prayer.
I keep interchangeably using vision, prayer and vision os I'm really bad
at this in Vision o Envision Os and that's, that's really helpful because
if you don't have that feedback when you're looking around, it's gonna
feel stale or stiff and it really helps with the eye tracking a lot.
And paired with the
Leo Dion (host): I was wondering about that.
Adrian Eves (guest): and yeah, that, that actually goes off
how to use it really well.
And it comes up and it explains a really good use case for defining
the geometry of the hover area.
No spoilers though.
Ooh.
Leo Dion (host): It's okay to get Vision Os and Vision Pro Interchanged
until they come out with the vision error or the vision se.
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, exactly.
Leo Dion (host): years, so you're good with that.
Adrian Eves (guest): The vision.
Pro
Leo Dion (host): What else do you wanna cover when it comes to Vision os, I
Adrian Eves (guest): I, so I, I'm blown away by the Vision Pros capabilities.
I'm not gonna name any competitors by name, but I've used the VR stuff
before and it felt like it was just made for some fun little party games.
Classic Beat Saber, which is not a, which is not a slam or a dig beat.
Saber is amazing and I love it.
But I have, I have felt limitations with those and.
The thing that is really interesting to me about Vision Pro is it feels
like a universal application of VR and AR space, which to me is
something I wasn't even considering.
Like for instance, I miss, I mentioned like crouton, like working in
your kitchen with recipes by you.
You can still play games, you can still watch movies and.
One thing that I'm really, really excited about is they solve one of
the biggest problems with traditional vr, which is, so let's say you
played like Skyrim in vr, right?
If you play on a normal headset, you're gonna get motion sick, unless you have
unless you're really used to it and you've fought the good fight there.
But because of their windowed approach to things, you can
still see everything around you.
And it, it feels like another, like tv, but it's still it's
still part of the experience and it's really clever how it's done.
And so I'm excited for it to be a solution for everybody.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
What I said in the last episode was that everybody's VR headset,
before this was like a Blackberry.
They all had keyboards on them and that was the way you did a smartphone.
And then Apple comes along and they're like, no, no, no.
This is how you do vr.
You do get rid of the keyboard and you make it ar.
AR device with, with a camera on both ends, et cetera, and it,
it feels like they just, apple does its own thing and then
everybody's gonna follow that route.
Like it's, it feels very much like what happened with the iPhone
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.
Leo Dion (host): years ago in that regard.
Adrian Eves (guest): So that, that to me is just super cool.
I'm really excited and it's, we're entering another age
of the developer Wild West.
So back in when Swift was announced on the iPhone and everyone was jumping
into it, everyone was figuring out how to use it and stuff and trying
to figure out best practices.
And the cool thing is, apart from these lovely sessions that
we've been given, a lot of the best practices for the developer
community have yet to be revealed.
And so I think if you're interested in joining the wider community at
large this is a great platform for you because you can be a part of
the discussion and help form kind of the trajectory of third party apps
for Vision Os, and that's a really great place to have your voice heard.
Leo Dion (host): Let's talk about the community aspect of it.
Like what, yeah, what was, what was that like for this year's dubbed up DC
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, it was incredible.
So I, I really think of it honestly, go going to a really, really big
family reunion because you just, you recognize so many people.
There so many people you haven't seen in at least a year, and
it's like you never left.
It's like the whole time you're kinda like, wow.
But the whole year you're like, oh man, I hope so and so hasn't
forgotten me or something.
But they're just.
So happy to see you.
There's like hogs and high fives all around and here's what I've been up
to and it's incredible cuz like not only are people like here to see
everything at WW, they are also, you also get to see that they're
in evolving stages of their life.
Like some people have gotten new jobs, some people have built new apps, some
people are in the middle of building new apps, some people have had kids,
some people have gotten married.
It's just incredible.
It just really Shows you that the community is alive, evolving,
and and just really special.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Yeah, I decided not to go this year cuz I already did my World World tour doing
two conferences and it like, just going to those two conferences was so great to
see people I haven't seen in a while in per or never seen in person, honestly.
And I can't imagine it's, it's the same going to WW dcs, like
just seeing all these people, especially if it's been a while.
What.
What do you think is like the, what was like the biggest change
or biggest surprise for meeting other people as far as what they're
working on that's differently than what you would've expected,
Adrian Eves (guest): so are you talking about like in meeting other people
and like what they're working on or just meeting other people in general?
Leo Dion (host): Meeting other people and what are they working on?
Adrian Eves (guest): You have this idea of like kind of software engineering.
Oh, I have an idea.
I'm gonna carefully guard it.
People are out to steal it.
And I was expecting people to, to be that way.
Cause I, I would Ally ask, oh I see like you are really interested in this.
Are you planning on making something then?
And then I was planning every time I asked that to be like, shut down
and be like, oh, I can't say it.
But everyone is really eager to talk about what they're doing for the most
part, for those that I talk to at least.
And it's nice because, I haven't seen the kind of thief mindset.
Usually when somebody says it, they're like, oh, that's really cool.
Did you know that this could do this?
Or whatever, or, this might be helpful.
And I saw a friend working on a really, really good idea.
I'm, I really think we'll see the idea within the next year.
But they were talking to another one of my friends about a particular protocol
or a framework, and it was really cool.
This person that they, that they were talking to, really knowledgeable in
this framework and this person just was genuinely caring and helping them out.
And this community has a really, really, really good spirit.
And I was just gen, I was just really impressed with how much everyone
genuinely wants to help each other.
Leo Dion (host): Yep.
Yeah, I agree completely.
I think.
I think that I've done this long enough.
Like I know that your code is not as special as you think it is.
There's what makes a successful app is not great code, so to me
it's like sharing my code is not.
It's not the secret it used to be, yeah, somebody could copy it.
But like to me it's more, it's more the collab.
There's so much benefit to the collaboration and the community
aspect to it that it's, to me, keeping your code secret sometimes
isn't, like you lose more than you gain, I guess is the way I'd put it.
So yeah, I totally agree with that.
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, and I really do think that while maybe
unfortunate if someone were to copy code, it really does the copy or
disservice, and that's unfortunate.
Leo Dion (host): Mm.
Yeah, exactly.
What else about just the community aspect or being in person?
Did you want to talk about or do you feel like we covered that pretty well?
Adrian Eves (guest): I think so one really awesome thing, so I
didn't get the quote unquote golden ticket but I did get to help.
I always did happy hour with the watch party, and that was really
cool because instead of usually kinda watching it by yourself and like your
living room or your bedroom, you have to be with a bunch of other people.
And it was like watching the last, the last Avengers movie where
everyone hears for things and all the cool things happen like.
Like for instance, people really got happy about the Vision Pro announcement.
I almost fell outta my seat when they announced the biking port
and the health app for iPad.
The biking stuff for the watch, to me as a cyclist, that to me is just
amazing and I cannot wait to overuse it.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, let's, I wanna talk about that a little bit.
We're gonna do an episode, I think the next episode might be with
Hidi who's done amazing work.
He did a great talk on design at Swift Heroes.
So I'm really excited to geek out about watch OS 10
with him in the next episode.
But I do wanna talk about a few things.
Mostly the health related stuff.
So yeah, we got.
We got health kit on the iPad, which was always a pain in the
butt to deal if you're ever developed anything with Health Kit.
We got a new API for seeking workouts between the phone and the watch.
You always had to do it through watch conductivity and now there's
a built-in API and health kit to do that, which I really am happy about.
And then we got biking.
So maybe you can explain the biking and the hiking part.
Are those.
On all watch OS 10 watches, or
Adrian Eves (guest): I'm not
Leo Dion (host): I wasn't totally clear on
Adrian Eves (guest): I think I didn't see anything that necessarily said
the ultras, but of course, if anyone's listening, they can jump out and
correct me and I would be happily
Leo Dion (host): Please do.
We asked this in the last episode and I'm like, with the hiking stuff,
like they talked about last cell phone get last cell connection.
Does it have to be a ultra, could it just be a watch with LTE on it?
I don't like, cuz that would be awesome if I didn't have to buy, spend
$700 to, to, to use that feature.
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, I have an ultra just because I like to run like
marathons and things, so it's kind
Leo Dion (host): Oh, okay.
Adrian Eves (guest): it's, it's very great.
But the biking thing is incredible because as someone who trains, like
for instance, I have an Ironman coming up in November, but as somebody who
trains extensively on the bike to try to improve and nail down a certain
level of performance, The improvements.
Basically, what they've done is something that I've wanted for like
years, and that's for the watch to take on the functionality of a bike computer.
Now, a bike computer really tells you a bunch of things,
like how fast you're going.
But it can also tell you your average wattage.
And Abu amidst a bunch of other stats.
And now the watch can do that, which means you don't have to go buy a bunch
of extra equipment and sync it up.
You just throw your iPad, I mean your, your iPad, your iPhone in
your bag, and or in the back of your bike jersey and it collects
the data and you can get that stuff just by virtue of running a workout.
And that, to me is incredible, and I'm so excited about it.
Leo Dion (host): The other, so the other thing was, is that you can get a display
on your phone to show your bike stats.
Is that correct?
Adrian Eves (guest): That's, that's like the idea of the bike computer.
Leo Dion (host): Okay.
So like you don't have to look at your wrist, you can look at
your phone at the same time.
Adrian Eves (guest): I don't know if I personally would try
to look at both at the same time.
I feel like I don't have the ability to
Leo Dion (host): No, no, no.
I meant you could look at the phone instead of the watch while the watch
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I,
Leo Dion (host): Is that
Adrian Eves (guest): I did not know.
I did not know that.
But my understanding is some people, some like official races
are very finicky about having like your phone as a bike computer,
they'll disallow it and stuff.
Leo Dion (host): Why is that?
For safety reasons.
Adrian Eves (guest): I think it's for safety reasons
and I think it's the idea.
They don't want the temptation of texting while writing.
Leo Dion (host): That's, that'll happen.
Sorry.
People are like that.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Yeah, I yeah, I've done half marathons before.
I've never, I, I haven't done an, I don't have an ultra watch
ultra, but that would be tempting for marathons, I would assume.
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah, no, if you're, yeah, if you ever wanna do
like an endurance board, honestly, like this is the one to get, it's fantastic.
But even then I will
say
Leo Dion (host): looked at one this week.
I actually looked at one this weekend because if you can
gimme your thoughts on prayers.
My series six died like it's dead.
It doesn't turn on anymore.
It charges, but it doesn't turn on.
I was like, oh, how big is a ultra?
And it looked like really big.
And I was like a bit intimidated by that.
But yeah, I mean that battery life must be awesome on it.
Adrian Eves (guest): no, it really is.
And but even I will say that For things like marathons, there are
optimizations you can make to make it even better, because I really love
the Nike Run Club app and I love the guided runs with Coach Bennett, but
that can eat your battery pretty hard.
Leo Dion (host): Okay.
Yeah, I've, I've bought, like most of my watches I've bought were the Nike
ones, so that's, that's cool to hear.
Anything else that you wanna talk about health related.
Adrian Eves (guest): I guess that today is pretty awesome.
And I met him at.
And he's just a ray of sunshine.
I'm excited for the next episode.
Leo Dion (host): yeah, yeah.
There's, I'm so tempted to go to the beta.
We'll see.
I'm, I'm holding out as long as I am.
So far we've been able to record this episode on Sonoma, so that's
good news cuz I accidentally upgraded my production.
Adrian Eves (guest): Whoops.
Leo Dion (host): yeah, don't do that.
It, it crashes quite a bit.
I love the widgets on the screen.
I think that's awesome.
But yeah, there's been, there's been a couple times the
computer's restarted on its own.
So far this worked out great.
Yay.
I want to talk about partnership with Unity.
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh,
Leo Dion (host): Vision OS related or gaming related?
Adrian Eves (guest): both.
So this is something that's special to me because I have a niche
interest in game development and.
Leo Dion (host): Okay.
Adrian Eves (guest): the years, Apple's done some really awesome,
like Unity has helped join the pretty much the Apple scene in a lot of ways
and including actual accessibility frameworks with Apple for games.
And now we're seeing unity in these events.
Like the keynote for developing, especially the case was Vision
Os, and that's just really cool because I really like Unity a lot.
And it's a really good game development tool, and it's really nice to see
that it's so friendly with the, the Apple platform ecosystem.
So it's you don't have to feel that there's not a suitable
option for game development.
This is a great one.
Leo Dion (host): When you do games, do you just do them in Unity?
Do you use like Sprite kit or any of the scene kit or any of the
Apple stuff, or how do you do that?
I'm just kinda
Adrian Eves (guest): I think it, it depends on the project, and I think it
depends on the scale of your project.
I personally like working in Unity just because of all that's available
to you, and it's the type of project that I like lends itself really well
to Unity, especially if you consider things like tile maps and and I
know you can do that with Sprite Kit, but Unity makes it really easy.
Leo Dion (host): What is Unity?
C Sharp based JavaScript based.
Adrian Eves (guest): It is actually, I have a funny story.
So while we were waiting for our flights, we were, and we
were in Cupertino, Paul Hudson and I were killing some time.
We went to the Cupertino Public Library and logged into the computers and
found that they had Visual Studio 2015.
So we built little projects in c just for the fun of it.
During the hour, we have limited, it felt.
Suspiciously like an, like a lead code problem session?
Leo Dion (host): 2015.
Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.
Leo Dion (host): So it's wow, that's funny.
Oh, that takes me back.
Yeah.
Was there anything else you wanna talk about before we close out?
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, wow.
I guess some last minute things.
Some quick things I'm really pumped for SWIFT macros and swift data Macros
are gonna make writing swift so much.
More exciting and just fast and swift data.
We know that it's going to, it as core data is very kind of archaic and
tricky to conceptually wrap around.
I've always had a really hard time with it.
And Swift data is gonna be a really great solution for getting some
persistence done in a way that makes sense and feels readable.
Leo Dion (host): Have you d have you tried any of those?
Either, either of those?
In the last week, because I've only done Swift macro for Previ Swift UI previews,
which by the way, I find a bug.
I filed it,
Adrian Eves (guest): Good job.
Leo Dion (host): the Monday, the Sunday before Dub wdc, I created,
created a enum called Preview.
With the same name.
And then I'm like using the macro in my project and it's like I preview's
not a macro, why are you trying to, but I'm like, I'm using your built-in.
It ends up being, there's like a name con.
You can't have an enum with the same name as a built-in macro.
So yeah, I don't think that's, I don't think that should be the case.
I would assume
Adrian Eves (guest): I'm glad you filed.
Leo Dion (host): way.
Yes, I did file, I'll post a link to the number in the no show notes.
But I've not, so that's actually one API is I haven't jumped into Swift data.
Like I pretty much could use swift data everywhere.
I feel like I've been waiting for swift data, which is why I've
avoided core data in all of my apps is because I knew there's gonna
be something like this coming.
I am definitely at some point this summer gonna deep dive into
Swift data cuz I could use it.
So many places and so many apps.
Yeah, I'm really excited about that and jumping into that
and seeing how that works.
Also, seeing how that works, how that fits in with Full for, with
a full Stack Swift application.
If you have a database in Fluent and Vapor, like how does
that work with Swift data if you wanna sync your data up.
And
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah.
Leo Dion (host): I'm really excited about that.
Adrian Eves (guest): That should be a good time.
I'm really happy that it's around and I already know people using it.
And I'll also on the subgroup, swift Macros.
Shout out to Holly Borla for presenting at State of the Union.
She's a boss.
Leo Dion (host): she is.
Yes, she is the boss.
Yeah, I Holly puts out great content.
She does a fantastic job.
Her talk on associated types from last year was a super, super
helpful for me when it came to doing my talk for Swift Heroes.
Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I'm really happy to hear that.
Also good work for your talk that that's incredible.
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah, I was wrapping my head around existential hike types and I finally
rocked it after I watched her talk.
And the other gentleman who talked last year, I wish I remembered,
Adrian Eves (guest): are the only other person I know who uses the
word rock, you and Charlie Chapman.
Leo Dion (host): must be a Midwest thing,
Adrian Eves (guest): I think it's gotta be, Because yeah, you, you,
Leo Dion (host): Adrian.
Adrian Eves (guest): be midwesterns.
Leo Dion (host): Yes.
Yeah, we're both midwesterns wow.
Anything else?
Adrian Eves (guest): That's all I can think of for today.
I think I'm ready for a nap in a little bit.
Leo Dion (host): Yes, enjoy your nap.
Good luck with your job search.
Thank you so much, Adrian, for coming back on.
We'll love to have you on again.
Maybe next time we'll just geek out about tears of the kingdom
Adrian Eves (guest): Yes, but we'd have to schedule multiple sessions for that.
Leo Dion (host): You're right.
Exactly.
Where could people find you online?
Adrian Eves (guest): You can find me on all the platforms Twitter at swifty
mastodon@swiftiesmacedon.social, and blue sky at swifties Swift.
Eves at the little.
Standard blue sky domain.
Leo Dion (host): Great.
Thank you again.
Um, people can find me on Twitter at Leo My company is Bright Digit.
Uh, I'm Leo g Dion everywhere.
Bright Digit Please uh, if you're watching this on
YouTube, like subscribe.
I'd really, really it.
Share some clips and shorts with other people.
Let them know that I uh, I'll be pro pretty much putting out once
a week uh, until probably August.
So have a lot at Wwtc to cover.
Next time we'll be probably hit a talk about watch OS 10 and I also am planning
on having Pedro Panera from tourist on to talk about Xcode and tourist.
So be sure to subscribe if you wanna catch those episodes.
If you're listening to this on a podcast player.
Also put out a review and share with others as well.
Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again.
Bye everybody.