WEBVTT 00:00:05.005 --> 00:00:14.817 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. And I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:22.217 Podcast, where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, ministry, and the Bible, 00:00:22.496 --> 00:00:26.737 and all of the above. Things we're frustrated or angry about. Things we're frustrated or 00:00:26.737 --> 00:00:34.737 angry about. So today we're going to be talking about sort of the intersection of faith and 00:00:34.737 --> 00:00:46.977 mental health. So we're going to dig into this. So I feel like there is a, I mean, there's a lot 00:00:46.977 --> 00:00:57.217 to talk about here. But maybe the place to kind of start is a place where maybe a lot of our 00:00:57.217 --> 00:01:06.577 listeners have experienced this or maybe not. But I've encountered a couple different people, 00:01:07.183 --> 00:01:14.337 more than a couple different people in ministry who struggle with mental health. I personally 00:01:14.337 --> 00:01:22.361 have my own mental health journey which I will probably be talking about a lot during this episode. 00:01:23.667 --> 00:01:30.796 But people who are struggling with mental health are sharing and dealing with that in a context of a faith community. 00:01:31.481 --> 00:01:40.411 And almost inevitably, it seems like somebody will come up to them at some point and say something along the lines of, 00:01:41.482 --> 00:01:51.157 you know, have you prayed about your depression? And have you thought about why your depression hasn't left or God hasn't answered your prayer to remove your depression? 00:01:51.157 --> 00:01:57.397 Or, you know, you still have depression because you lack faith. 00:01:58.517 --> 00:02:05.905 Right. And so this is something that comes up like annually, I would almost say, of. 00:02:07.157 --> 00:02:13.797 Encountering someone who's had this said to them in the past or is wrestling through their own kind 00:02:13.797 --> 00:02:20.277 of story of like, does this mean that I'm somehow broken or lacking in faith because I am depressed 00:02:20.597 --> 00:02:25.017 and I'm a Christian, can these two things coexist? 00:02:25.357 --> 00:02:25.665 Right. 00:02:26.619 --> 00:02:34.917 Yeah. Yeah, I would, you said we deal with it annually. I would say that we, I mean, we probably deal 00:02:34.917 --> 00:02:39.808 with some sort, some form or sentiment of that monthly. 00:02:40.157 --> 00:02:49.077 Yeah. You know, where someone, you know, would come to us and or in the context of any conversations 00:02:49.077 --> 00:02:55.004 or having just have a significant sense of like, why am I so broken? 00:02:55.117 --> 00:03:04.157 Why won't God deliver me from this? How do I have more faith to believe that I can be free? 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:08.840 How can I name and claim my healing in the name of Jesus? 00:03:09.911 --> 00:03:23.361 And there's a lot there to talk about. One of the things, I can't say this for sure because, 00:03:24.315 --> 00:03:29.841 in almost 20 years of pastoral ministry, I've really only ever pastored two, well, three churches, 00:03:29.841 --> 00:03:39.361 but two for long periods of time. And so I don't have a great perspective on a multiplicity of 00:03:39.361 --> 00:03:46.561 of churches, but what I will say is that it feels like when you begin to talk about something, 00:03:47.921 --> 00:03:55.281 like mental health within the context of the church, you get. 00:03:57.601 --> 00:04:03.841 Really one of two sort of like responses. One, you get one that's like a, oh, that's just a 00:04:03.841 --> 00:04:10.321 a spiritual issue and we need to pray that away. And if you're not experiencing victory, 00:04:10.321 --> 00:04:12.321 then you don't have enough faith or whatever. 00:04:14.016 --> 00:04:22.839 The other that I, and so you would see, so it seems like in those churches, 00:04:23.201 --> 00:04:27.502 no one's gotten any mental health issues, right? 00:04:27.583 --> 00:04:33.421 No one is depressed, no one is ever anxious, No one has ever like experiences, you know, 00:04:33.421 --> 00:04:35.973 bipolar mood swings or anything like that. 00:04:37.296 --> 00:04:42.201 The reality they're being, we know, is that those things do exist within the people 00:04:42.201 --> 00:04:47.253 in that church, but they- Are not talking about it. Right. Or they're not naming it. 00:04:47.381 --> 00:04:53.185 Right, they have not, they don't find that they are safe enough within the community, 00:04:53.341 --> 00:04:59.401 faith community that they're a part of, to talk about what actually they deal with 00:04:59.401 --> 00:05:00.961 on a day-to-day basis. 00:05:00.961 --> 00:05:07.904 And so they live in the environment of Christian platitude all the time. 00:05:08.534 --> 00:05:14.170 Yeah. The other side of that coin is that you do have freedom to talk about it. 00:05:14.281 --> 00:05:17.194 It is a thing that's like consistently. 00:05:20.561 --> 00:05:28.641 As consistently as is appropriate, is consistently on the table of ministry. 00:05:30.001 --> 00:05:35.561 So people feel a sense of safety and there's not as much stigma around it. 00:05:36.481 --> 00:05:43.778 And so it becomes, and so it almost feels like it comes out of the woodwork of everyone's life. 00:05:44.921 --> 00:05:51.601 And I feel like that's a little bit where we are here at Conduit. Yeah. 00:05:52.204 --> 00:06:04.481 Is that we've been able to create a culture culture or an environment of safety around the area of. 00:06:06.059 --> 00:06:12.389 People struggle with mental health and have given them an environment or a place where it is okay, 00:06:13.342 --> 00:06:17.589 to talk about those things, especially within the context of faith. 00:06:19.121 --> 00:06:25.269 I've heard that described, I encountered someone who heard that described that as like, 00:06:26.229 --> 00:06:32.930 some churches kind of tend to become kind of ERs. They, for one reason or another, 00:06:33.101 --> 00:06:39.589 they kind of become a place where people, the church gains a reputation and a ministry of being 00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:49.509 able to kind of triage people with maybe past church hurt or hurt from other places or. 00:06:51.916 --> 00:06:56.912 It's a place where you can come and you can talk about those things and sometimes churches kind of 00:06:57.210 --> 00:06:58.965 And not every church is like that. 00:06:59.397 --> 00:07:06.949 And so sometimes it can feel a bit like, is everybody just coming here who kind of like 00:07:07.013 --> 00:07:11.949 feels a need for that kind of engagement in a spiritual community? 00:07:11.949 --> 00:07:16.949 I think that brings up an important question that I kind of want to just ask out into the open air. 00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:21.869 I don't even know that it's one that we've necessarily talked about extensively ourselves before, 00:07:21.869 --> 00:07:24.766 but like when it comes to, 00:07:24.901 --> 00:07:31.589 When it comes to mental health issues or mental health concerns or however you want to put it, 00:07:32.549 --> 00:07:38.229 what is or what should be the role of the church? 00:07:40.844 --> 00:07:49.749 That's a complicated question. Yeah. Well, because I think that we would probably both agree that there are 00:07:49.749 --> 00:07:57.149 are there are mental health struggles and issues and we're just going to use those words like. 00:07:58.227 --> 00:08:02.717 I don't know, like, okay, because you're depressed, it doesn't mean you have issues or is that, 00:08:02.717 --> 00:08:05.757 does it not, you're struggling. So just understand that when we use this language 00:08:05.757 --> 00:08:09.903 or using it just as a form of communication, not as a form of judgment on about anything. 00:08:09.966 --> 00:08:14.877 But I think we both agree, and we've maybe talked a little bit about this, 00:08:14.877 --> 00:08:18.357 that at least from a pastoral or a personal perspective, 00:08:19.397 --> 00:08:28.737 that there are mental health issues that are more significant than others or more pronounced than others, 00:08:28.737 --> 00:08:31.643 or maybe present more urgently. 00:08:31.817 --> 00:08:35.437 Or situations. Or situations that present more urgently. 00:08:37.177 --> 00:08:42.977 So that one of the most important things, at least for us, I know, 00:08:42.977 --> 00:08:52.123 is that a church kind of needs to understand its boundaries relative to its resources. 00:08:53.213 --> 00:09:00.757 Yeah. Yeah, there's, again, I feel like so many things we talk about, there's these spectrums, right? 00:09:00.757 --> 00:09:07.535 There could be the church or the ministry or the pastor who just completely abdicates in some way. 00:09:07.697 --> 00:09:12.917 We have nothing to contribute here either because it's just something we don't talk 00:09:12.917 --> 00:09:17.933 about or we just don't deal with that. 00:09:18.194 --> 00:09:21.777 It's just not a safe place to talk about that. 00:09:22.117 --> 00:09:25.397 Maybe they're even just, they're like, yeah, it's a thing, but just go somewhere else. 00:09:25.397 --> 00:09:28.682 And I don't talk about these things at all. 00:09:29.077 --> 00:09:39.277 Or there's the other side, the other end of that spectrum is someone who sees it as like their primary thing. 00:09:39.417 --> 00:09:47.597 And they're just like, it becomes the pastor's job to fix or to like save or to rush in. 00:09:47.597 --> 00:09:48.957 And that's all they're doing. 00:09:49.324 --> 00:09:51.827 Well, and they tell their people, you don't need to go to a counselor. 00:09:51.872 --> 00:09:54.477 Right. You don't need any medication. Just come talk to me. Right. 00:09:54.477 --> 00:09:56.317 We'll pray through it. We'll get you through it. 00:09:56.661 --> 00:10:00.847 Yeah, and that can look that can look two different ways that can look like the like. 00:10:02.692 --> 00:10:06.642 Hyper spiritual approach to it can also look like the person who. 00:10:08.782 --> 00:10:17.662 Thinks they're a psychologist and isn't yes Right, right. They read a few books in seminary or something like that and and that's not to say that, 00:10:18.383 --> 00:10:24.542 There are some churches who are well equipped to do that. In fact, it's part of kind of our, 00:10:25.342 --> 00:10:33.982 medium range goal here to have someone on staff that that is either a licensed mental health counselor or, 00:10:34.802 --> 00:10:37.202 We would not that a licensed social worker or. 00:10:38.890 --> 00:10:50.802 Something similar to that so that we Would have a greater breadth of resource to help minister to that dynamic of a person's whole, 00:10:51.719 --> 00:10:59.462 being Yeah so understanding I think your resources relative to 00:10:59.884 --> 00:11:05.102 boundaries and things that you're going to tackle or not tackle. 00:11:05.102 --> 00:11:16.382 If someone is maybe experiencing a mild case of depression or is anxious about something, 00:11:16.382 --> 00:11:28.262 it may give some, there's maybe a little bit more freedom to work within your own personal, 00:11:28.745 --> 00:11:34.020 boundaries in your own personal view, areas of expertise or certification or whatever, 00:11:34.262 --> 00:11:45.262 then it is someone who is experiencing regular psychotic breaks, needs very, very significant 00:11:45.262 --> 00:11:51.206 resources and help that I'm not equipped to give and don't want to try and step into that role. 00:11:51.557 --> 00:11:56.382 Yeah, yeah, so like for us like I know that that kind of looks like we don't. 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.702 As a general rule, we don't typically counsel people, 00:12:01.918 --> 00:12:10.939 with Through mental illness on a long-term basis Or who are in a situation of crisis. Yeah. No. Yeah like, 00:12:12.262 --> 00:12:19.782 Maybe it looks like you know, cuz we're often the safest people that other people have. 00:12:19.782 --> 00:12:23.782 So we might receive that person in the midst of their crisis, 00:12:24.514 --> 00:12:29.420 but work as diligently as we can to triage, 00:12:30.482 --> 00:12:37.782 and then refer out even as much as like, let's get in my car and let's go right now together. 00:12:38.017 --> 00:12:46.122 So yeah, understanding boundaries. boundaries what else is And isn't the church's role 00:12:46.122 --> 00:12:50.442 Um, could or couldn't be the role? 00:12:53.969 --> 00:13:02.219 Well, we're not diagnosticians either. So saying, oh yeah, you are obviously bipolar. 00:13:02.873 --> 00:13:12.859 Yeah. I think we sometimes, and this is again maybe a tendency some churches have, 00:13:13.739 --> 00:13:19.019 and is part of the problem when we get to the place of you do not have enough faith. 00:13:19.653 --> 00:13:28.139 We're coming to a diagnostic conclusion over why someone is experiencing what they're experiencing 00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:30.659 and we're like, oh, we got it figured out. 00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:44.879 We got all the information we need and we know it is this. And that can lead people from pursuing other avenues of help that maybe they could really 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:45.859 benefit from. 00:13:47.137 --> 00:14:03.199 Yeah. Right. Right. I think that the church can certainly be a place or certainly should 00:14:03.199 --> 00:14:12.532 be a place of empathy, of safety. 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:21.239 It should be a place where, I mean, I don't know, like I think some people disagree with 00:14:21.239 --> 00:14:28.939 this, but I think the church should be a place where there is essentially no, like nothing 00:14:28.939 --> 00:14:32.539 is off limits in terms of what is talked about. 00:14:33.805 --> 00:14:41.815 In the human experience. I don't really get the sense that it's a very productive or worthwhile. 00:14:44.652 --> 00:14:49.495 Bury your head in the sand type of technique to say because I don't understand this or because 00:14:49.495 --> 00:14:54.615 I don't feel a resource to deal with it or because I'm confused about the integration of maybe let's 00:14:54.615 --> 00:15:00.135 say mental health and illness and my own personal faith. I'm just going to pretend it doesn't exist 00:15:00.135 --> 00:15:04.115 this, but certainly to, or not to not talk about it, but certainly like, we, 00:15:04.735 --> 00:15:10.921 should have the freedom to be able to talk about all those things because it, 00:15:12.118 --> 00:15:14.450 does, you know, they afflict people. 00:15:15.530 --> 00:15:22.095 Right. And, you know, we're doing our best to love people in the moments and maybe 00:15:22.095 --> 00:15:28.495 not just the moments, but the seasons of their significant pain or, you know, 00:15:28.495 --> 00:15:37.928 emotional dysregulation or whatever. I think also the church can do a better job at maybe. 00:15:39.175 --> 00:15:43.375 Talking about teaching, preaching, but the nature of the self. 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:44.319 Yes. 00:15:44.850 --> 00:15:46.678 It's like the nature of the holistic self. 00:15:47.353 --> 00:15:56.575 Yeah. Because I think that is the answer. So if we were to pose the question like, why 00:15:56.575 --> 00:16:03.683 Why is it that depression, like from the beginning of this podcast episode, you and I have been, 00:16:04.241 --> 00:16:09.435 obviously operating with the assumption and the conclusion that if you're experiencing 00:16:09.435 --> 00:16:18.366 depression or anxiety or any other mental health issue, that it usually is not only 00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:22.635 a matter of spiritual faith. 00:16:22.635 --> 00:16:23.635 Usually not only. 00:16:23.902 --> 00:16:30.515 Yes. Correct. conclusion we've been operating under. And I think if someone were to ask us, well, like, 00:16:30.515 --> 00:16:34.355 Well, why isn't my depression just a lack of faith? 00:16:36.271 --> 00:16:41.997 What you're starting to talk about that picture of the holistic self is the answer to that question. So, 00:16:42.921 --> 00:16:47.641 So cameron, why is my depression not only a matter of faith? 00:16:48.441 --> 00:16:55.881 Well, because we are not just We are not just like Um, I guess how would you say? 00:16:56.521 --> 00:17:09.021 God has created us as holistic beings or people, meaning we don't just have a soul, we don't just have a body, we don't 00:17:09.021 --> 00:17:16.221 just have emotions or a mind or thoughts or whatever, as if those things are compartmentalized 00:17:16.221 --> 00:17:25.793 off from one another. He has created us as a very intricate, weaved together, whole person 00:17:26.072 --> 00:17:34.901 and to separate the soul from the body, from the mind, from the emotions, whatever categories you 00:17:34.901 --> 00:17:46.421 want to use is to, I think, have an improper or incorrect understanding of who we are as people. 00:17:46.696 --> 00:17:47.137 Right? 00:17:47.421 --> 00:17:57.283 And I think this is pretty firmly established in scripture as well. And so they're... 00:17:58.687 --> 00:18:14.257 There is a sense when you ask that question, why isn't my depression cured by just a continued or a growth in my faith, 00:18:14.257 --> 00:18:17.160 a belief that God can heal me is because, well, 00:18:18.366 --> 00:18:23.817 because your depression may not have been caused by a lack of faith, 00:18:23.817 --> 00:18:33.022 maybe or depression has been caused by a actual, very significant chemical imbalance in your brain 00:18:33.257 --> 00:18:41.617 that doesn't allow your neurotransmitters to absorb the correct chemicals that they need to 00:18:41.617 --> 00:18:45.301 in order to process the world and the things around you. 00:18:46.377 --> 00:19:01.897 Like in the most healthy manner it can be sometimes, Sometimes, usually, whatever you want to use, a chemical biological process that is happening 00:19:01.897 --> 00:19:02.897 within you. 00:19:02.897 --> 00:19:08.833 I don't know, I think that we should say, I mean, I don't know, like I want to say, 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:15.597 that okay, does that mean we shouldn't pray that God heals my depression and I should 00:19:15.597 --> 00:19:17.497 just go take medicine instead? 00:19:18.168 --> 00:19:27.503 Gosh, no. Yeah, that's not what we're saying. nor are we saying that God does not choose to heal in that way. 00:19:27.864 --> 00:19:33.537 You know, God does choose to heal in that way. That's very clear through the laying out of hands and prayer. 00:19:33.886 --> 00:19:40.537 And because we are holistic, we can't ignore the spiritual dimension of our healing, 00:19:40.537 --> 00:19:46.537 along with the physical dimension of our healing and the mental dimension of our healing. 00:19:46.537 --> 00:19:51.337 Healing. It's like why would you? We don't do this with anything else. We only 00:19:51.337 --> 00:19:56.537 do it with mental health if you if I got diagnosed with cancer. 00:19:55.888 --> 00:19:59.263 You wouldn't be like, well, why do you have cancer if you're a Christian? 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:05.818 Well, sadly to say, Cam, there are a minority of some churches that would say something like that. 00:20:05.818 --> 00:20:10.102 Oh, well, shame. Churches do exist that say things like that. 00:20:10.338 --> 00:20:18.098 Not by any means, I think, a large majority. I think more churches struggle to integrate with mental health and they do physical health. 00:20:18.098 --> 00:20:19.978 For me, it's a fascinating question. 00:20:20.167 --> 00:20:22.309 Like, what is it about those things that are so different? 00:20:23.795 --> 00:20:31.498 Well, you know, it's kind of like there's a undergirding philosophical thing going on. 00:20:31.498 --> 00:20:38.698 Like it's the continuation of the Gnostic influence in its own sort of way. 00:20:38.698 --> 00:20:51.458 And if you're like, Luke, what's Gnostic? Gnostic being Gnosticism being an early church, like heresy, false teaching, philosophy. 00:20:51.458 --> 00:20:56.098 There's a whole bunch of things that different branches and pockets of narcissism in early 00:20:56.098 --> 00:21:03.855 church, but the kind of core philosophical tenant of it was somehow a separation of the 00:21:04.058 --> 00:21:10.898 spiritual from the physical and the physical being less than, worse than, or bad in the 00:21:10.898 --> 00:21:12.978 spiritual being good or positive. 00:21:12.978 --> 00:21:17.961 A lot of times, narcissism attributed that to the personhood of Christ. 00:21:18.258 --> 00:21:23.258 They would say, well, God, God maybe kind of like possessed Jesus. 00:21:23.258 --> 00:21:28.058 And then like at a certain point during the cross, he left, God left Jesus and just the 00:21:28.058 --> 00:21:31.555 man Jesus died and God did not die. All matters bad. 00:21:32.538 --> 00:21:40.197 All spirit is good. All spirit is good. And so like that continues to be a bit of a thing that I think we, we deal with and 00:21:40.251 --> 00:21:44.258 it's kind of, there's a, there's a whole bunch of reasons why I think that is. 00:21:44.258 --> 00:21:50.532 I think we have a myopic or small view of redemption. 00:21:50.858 --> 00:21:55.458 We think, okay, my body is just garbage. It's going to die. 00:21:55.458 --> 00:21:58.498 Leave the shell and I'm going to go up to heaven be a spirit. 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:07.490 And so, and that's all our view of eternity is just us being floating spirits. We kind of, 00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:14.370 we take certain aspects of Paul's teaching, right? Like renewing of your mind, 00:22:15.170 --> 00:22:21.730 comes to mind, things that we kind of prioritize and say, well, mind over matter or mind over body 00:22:21.730 --> 00:22:29.490 or mind over spirit, body over spirit and all that. And we ignore the time when Paul was, 00:22:30.850 --> 00:22:34.210 telling Timothy to drink some wine because it might be good for him. 00:22:34.210 --> 00:22:34.930 It's still like, yeah. 00:22:36.398 --> 00:22:40.530 You know, Paul encourages people to pray for things and then he also just encouraged somebody 00:22:40.530 --> 00:22:44.050 to just take some wine because it just might actually help his stomach a little bit. 00:22:44.050 --> 00:22:53.930 So it's this kind of myopic view of it and we just we kind of just tend to I think fixate on this 00:22:53.930 --> 00:23:02.050 like continued dichotomy and separation of like well the spirit. Spirit's the good thing, the 00:23:02.050 --> 00:23:07.090 body's just the bad thing and I'm gonna leave that behind and it doesn't matter and my whole point 00:23:07.090 --> 00:23:11.410 of my life is to just ultimately transcend and leave this whole physical thing behind. 00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:21.490 I wonder also too if we talked a little bit about this in our class last night about the type of 00:23:21.490 --> 00:23:32.250 theology that has come out of enlightenment rationalism and how there's the sense of the 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:42.178 things that we do not understand from a rational or maybe scientifically fact-based type of. 00:23:43.744 --> 00:23:53.274 Ground of being like that we tend to We tend to throw away as illegitimate. So the supernatural for instance has come under, 00:23:54.691 --> 00:24:00.234 You know major assault in the last 400 years because well the supernatural is not, 00:24:00.734 --> 00:24:07.954 Natural and so if it can't be reproduced in a lab if it doesn't fit within the scope of the scientific formula 00:24:08.140 --> 00:24:12.425 then it can't possibly be real. 00:24:12.914 --> 00:24:17.554 And I think that with mental health issues, there is this sense like, well, okay, 00:24:17.554 --> 00:24:21.314 why would we say that to someone who has depression? 00:24:21.314 --> 00:24:25.114 Like, well, you just had enough faith, you wouldn't struggle with depression, 00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:28.914 but we wouldn't say that to a cancer patient, right? 00:24:28.914 --> 00:24:34.314 It's because, well, we can take a cancer cell and put it under a microscope and we can look at it 00:24:34.314 --> 00:24:37.754 and we can see it and we understand what happens to it. 00:24:38.217 --> 00:24:42.714 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no depression cells. Well that we found. 00:24:42.914 --> 00:24:51.794 That we found, right? You know, it is, it, it exists within a sphere of our being that is not necessarily as empirically. 00:24:56.203 --> 00:25:06.016 Viewable or verifiable as with the exception of we see the changes that we see the changes that happen in people's demeanor 00:25:06.154 --> 00:25:14.190 and their mental processes when we change the brain chemistry. 00:25:14.674 --> 00:25:16.404 Through maybe medication. 00:25:16.554 --> 00:25:22.314 We see a result. Yeah, I think that's because I think that makes me at least 00:25:22.314 --> 00:25:26.714 step back out of our context a little bit because we've been talking like primarily from a Christian 00:25:26.714 --> 00:25:28.323 ministry standpoint. 00:25:28.434 --> 00:25:33.347 And even if we were to just take just the world in general, I know that there's been 00:25:33.635 --> 00:25:40.674 significant moves forward in taking more seriously mental health and it being like acknowledged as a thing. 00:25:40.674 --> 00:25:44.434 But there are still pockets of people who outside of Christian philosophy and thought 00:25:44.434 --> 00:25:50.474 and theology who are just like, ah, that's just all hogwash, just like, you know, man 00:25:50.474 --> 00:25:53.014 up or grow up or get over it, you know. 00:25:53.014 --> 00:25:59.732 So even outside of our own context, this kind of dismissal or just like it's a lesser, it's. 00:26:00.174 --> 00:26:07.974 Less real, or it's somehow just like a thing that you can just choose to get over is still 00:26:07.974 --> 00:26:11.814 a thought that is out there even outside of our context. 00:26:11.814 --> 00:26:16.854 Context just perhaps colors that with some more. 00:26:16.432 --> 00:26:25.082 A faith talk. Yeah, so, right. Yeah, and I think, you know, so we're saying that, like, 00:26:25.263 --> 00:26:31.402 God has created us as full beings. We have mind, we've got emotions, we've got a spirit, 00:26:31.402 --> 00:26:41.162 we've got a physical body that experiences things. And rather than us being, you know, 00:26:41.162 --> 00:26:52.022 I think if you've ever encountered maybe someone teaching on anthropology or the nature of a human 00:26:52.022 --> 00:26:59.802 being from a Christian context, a lot of times they do this kind of tri-division, mind, body, soul. 00:26:59.802 --> 00:27:10.355 And what a lot of times happens when we teach about the self as being a mind, a body, and a soul is we. 00:27:10.862 --> 00:27:18.062 We end up thinking one of those is more important in that because we kind of use a pie chart 00:27:18.062 --> 00:27:22.607 and the visualizations got these divisions between the three. 00:27:22.902 --> 00:27:28.378 Even that visualization shows a separation between the mind, the body, and the soul. 00:27:28.702 --> 00:27:35.967 When really those divisions, those walls really ought to be like dotted lines or permeable, 00:27:36.408 --> 00:27:40.222 because the mind affects the soul, the soul affects the body. 00:27:40.603 --> 00:27:46.902 There is this incredible unity. We might be able to say there's like maybe three aspects if we want to continue 00:27:46.902 --> 00:27:50.631 to use those three distinctions to a person. 00:27:51.450 --> 00:28:01.317 But they're permeable. They're not like these, it's not like I can just pluck my mind out of me and then still have me. 00:28:01.884 --> 00:28:08.342 You're getting into some Trinitarian stuff here. All jazz stuff about this. 00:28:08.342 --> 00:28:13.342 Well, because it's like, this is the stuff that I get excited about. 00:28:13.342 --> 00:28:21.342 But we're, you know, somebody, you know, if someone comes to me and they're like, you know, 00:28:21.941 --> 00:28:25.342 I don't know, this is like a, they're just like, you know, it's winter. 00:28:25.342 --> 00:28:31.102 I'm just having a really like, I'm feeling really down. like, Pastor Luke, what should I do about it? 00:28:31.102 --> 00:28:38.222 Like, you know, this is very generic and very like just broad-boned, broad spectrum. 00:28:38.222 --> 00:28:45.822 But I would say, OK, well, maybe take some vitamin D, get outside during the day, 00:28:45.822 --> 00:28:49.022 during the brightest time of the day for maybe 30 minutes. 00:28:51.046 --> 00:28:56.915 Make sure you're spending time with people. Pray about it. Spend some time with the Lord. 00:28:57.050 --> 00:29:01.947 And then if this is continuing on for a couple weeks, maybe go talk to a counselor for a couple sessions. 00:29:03.046 --> 00:29:10.976 Like address all of the aspects to it. It's not a like one thing, right? Because all of those things. 00:29:12.075 --> 00:29:19.056 Well, and like one of the things you said is most people can understand the connectivity of the 00:29:19.056 --> 00:29:25.776 various parts of your being even if you don't talk about it in that way. For instance, you almost 00:29:25.776 --> 00:29:30.736 always feel better mentally when you exercise physically. 00:29:30.853 --> 00:29:31.286 Yes. 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:36.936 Right. So why would that be if those things are not permeable and completely separate? 00:29:37.317 --> 00:29:42.936 Or I don't know about anyone else, but like when I haven't had anything to eat. 00:29:43.664 --> 00:29:48.936 Oh, I get, I get nasty. I get, I get angry. I get so do I. 00:29:48.936 --> 00:29:59.112 And Sherry has come to, my wife has come to know that, oh, your attitude sucks right now. 00:30:00.016 --> 00:30:01.676 Did you eat today? 00:30:03.116 --> 00:30:08.016 And like, oh yeah, I guess I am hungry. So like here, have this Snickers bar, you know, 00:30:08.016 --> 00:30:10.016 that you hold Snickers commercials. 00:30:10.016 --> 00:30:17.516 So there is, we all, I think, tend, we have intrinsically this understanding 00:30:17.516 --> 00:30:21.968 that there's a significant connectivity 00:30:22.236 --> 00:30:25.101 between the various parts of who we are, 00:30:25.516 --> 00:30:30.746 and that goes, you know, that is the same with our mental health as well. 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:41.716 Yeah, right. It goes across the board. And so I think, yeah, I guess just to say loudly 00:30:41.716 --> 00:30:47.652 it loudly to say it loudly and clearly like you know if you're dealing with, 00:30:48.552 --> 00:30:57.196 mental health issues like there is no shame in pursuing counseling, professional 00:30:57.196 --> 00:31:06.436 help, medical help, prayer, prayer, exercise, exercise, community, right, right. Take a 00:31:06.436 --> 00:31:11.396 holistic approach to take a holistic approach to treating to treating what is 00:31:11.396 --> 00:31:16.396 is a holistic problem in your life. 00:31:16.396 --> 00:31:22.437 I think there's also, you know, that's, I wouldn't necessarily, 00:31:22.836 --> 00:31:27.836 that's a fairly practical response to it. 00:31:29.796 --> 00:31:35.156 Pastorally speaking, how can we speak to the people that are like. 00:31:38.659 --> 00:31:51.389 Dealing with this, maybe in the context of them having been told in the past that you obviously 00:31:51.389 --> 00:32:01.709 don't have enough faith or there's a real issue with your walk with Jesus then or what is the 00:32:01.709 --> 00:32:10.349 response of those who love with the heart of Christ to people who have been told stuff like that? 00:32:11.427 --> 00:32:18.980 You know, my first thing is just to kind of say like, my first response is just I'm sorry, 00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:26.029 that that's happened because a lot of time that ends up in a place of blame, right? Blame and shame 00:32:26.353 --> 00:32:34.309 because it's like I have done something wrong, I am causing my own suffering, and it's a marker 00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:41.569 of a character defect in me. If you want to talk about something that will make your depression 00:32:41.569 --> 00:32:49.789 or anxiety or mental condition worse, those are some big things. And then I would just point to 00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:57.709 to like the testimony of scripture and say that like, if you read your Psalms, you'll 00:32:57.709 --> 00:33:05.549 find a broad spectrum of human experience. A large amount of it will be very sad, a lot 00:33:05.549 --> 00:33:13.789 of suffering. And, you know, I always think of... 00:33:14.992 --> 00:33:30.683 Elijah after his fight would kind of fight but showdown with the prophets of bail and then runs and is kind of in hiding from Jezebel still and he has this like this very hard. 00:33:31.241 --> 00:33:34.608 Kind of just like it's probably the best. 00:33:35.364 --> 00:33:42.143 I don't want to over-clinicalize the Bible and say like Elijah definitely was depressed at that point. 00:33:42.482 --> 00:33:47.202 But like if you want to talk about a picture that's as close to depression as we probably 00:33:47.202 --> 00:33:50.962 get in a story, like that's probably one of them. 00:33:51.577 --> 00:34:01.322 And God's response to Elijah was very gentle and was bringing him along and included physical 00:34:01.322 --> 00:34:10.383 nourishment as well as a spiritual experience. So just from a pastoral standpoint, if you want 00:34:10.707 --> 00:34:18.122 the quick biblical hermeneutic of like, you know, why do you say that? What's the biblical proof? 00:34:18.122 --> 00:34:25.962 That would be my quick, like this is what the Bible seems to also... And like the Bible was not 00:34:25.962 --> 00:34:33.762 written with when a concept of mental health was like a concept. So to read the Bible and say like 00:34:33.762 --> 00:34:39.883 the Bible is like conscious of mental health is an overstatement because I don't think it necessarily, 00:34:40.362 --> 00:34:54.762 is. But we can see threads that point to human experience. So I think there's a parallel 00:34:54.762 --> 00:35:04.802 parallel truth or however you want to call it that, that is not necessarily associated 00:35:04.802 --> 00:35:13.602 with just mental health, but with suffering in general. And that would be, well, like the typical. 00:35:14.560 --> 00:35:24.482 Maybe thought is that if you're suffering or if life is hard or if you're going through significant 00:35:24.482 --> 00:35:31.202 experiences, significantly difficult experiences is because you're doing something wrong. 00:35:31.522 --> 00:35:31.917 Right. 00:35:33.002 --> 00:35:40.722 And your suffering is a consequence of your wrongness. Yes. 00:35:40.722 --> 00:35:48.445 Either wrong belief or wrong action or wrong something. 00:35:49.687 --> 00:35:56.257 Um, and do we believe that about the Bible? Do we believe that suffering always is a, 00:35:57.777 --> 00:36:04.657 is a indication that I am in the wrong? No, we don't. You're like setting, like this is just 00:36:04.657 --> 00:36:08.817 like a big passion topic for me. You're like, I'm trying to throw you like an underhand. 00:36:09.937 --> 00:36:14.977 Can I, I want to say this for everybody. I'm going to say this for the people in the back of the room, 00:36:15.370 --> 00:36:23.377 right? The Bible does not teach that because something bad happens to you, it automatically 00:36:23.377 --> 00:36:29.417 means that you are somehow responsible or have done something wrong or lack faith. 00:36:29.417 --> 00:36:29.756 Yes. 00:36:30.097 --> 00:36:42.097 Right? The Bible does talk about testing, trials, and those are not reasons for suffering. They are 00:36:42.097 --> 00:36:49.537 outcomes of suffering, right? When we talk about Peter, 1 Peter in the first part of that book 00:36:49.537 --> 00:36:55.160 talks about like you rejoice in your salvation in knowing Christ even though for a little while you 00:36:55.337 --> 00:37:01.057 suffer and endure trials which are producing your genuineness of faith and outcome and salvation of 00:37:01.057 --> 00:37:06.697 your souls which is more precious than that of gold which is refined by fire. That whole thing is 00:37:06.697 --> 00:37:14.937 not a saying you're suffering because of or you're experiencing trials because of these things. 00:37:15.731 --> 00:37:22.697 It's saying this is an outcome of it or a benefit of it or how God uses to magnify or show His glory, 00:37:23.373 --> 00:37:29.657 through bad things happening to you. It's not the reason. The reason might be your own negative 00:37:29.657 --> 00:37:35.417 choices, might be someone else's sinful choices, might be just the sinfulness and brokenness of 00:37:35.417 --> 00:37:45.737 of the world. And a lot of times people wrestle with all of this and try and find reasons 00:37:45.737 --> 00:37:51.817 or even like really complicated like we could get really big and we could blow up the question 00:37:51.817 --> 00:37:58.017 to like why is there evil in the world period? And that's an apologetic question a lot of 00:37:58.017 --> 00:38:04.977 people spend a lot of time on. And most of the answers to that question are partly true. 00:38:05.189 --> 00:38:12.377 But I just want to simply say that if you were to read the book of Job, which is entirely 00:38:12.377 --> 00:38:21.937 about suffering, from its 43 chapters of dealing with a philosophical and practical life of 00:38:21.937 --> 00:38:28.622 a man who is enduring extreme suffering. I always hesitate when anyone quotes from Job, 00:38:29.144 --> 00:38:34.555 because depending on what chapter you're quoting, you might be quoting someone or something 00:38:34.671 --> 00:38:40.957 who's saying something that the author is trying to hold up as an argument that's wrong or false. 00:38:41.954 --> 00:38:46.924 Because a lot of it is Job is the simple story of Job. Job's a righteous good man, 00:38:46.924 --> 00:38:52.364 follows the Lord. He loses everything. Everything. A couple of times. Couple of times. 00:38:53.180 --> 00:39:00.204 Like all in one day. Awful suffering befalls him. Some friends show up, hang out with him for a 00:39:00.204 --> 00:39:04.604 couple of days. And then they begin to say, Job, do you think all these things happened to you 00:39:04.604 --> 00:39:10.284 because you did something wrong? Job, do you think maybe one of your children did something wrong? 00:39:11.194 --> 00:39:15.964 Job, maybe you haven't been worshipping the Lord, or maybe you were becoming prideful in 00:39:15.964 --> 00:39:17.775 all of the things that you owned. 00:39:18.164 --> 00:39:25.120 And Job's like, no, these things are not true. If that's why God is doing this to me, that's not why. 00:39:25.644 --> 00:39:31.278 And then eventually, after 40 some chapters, Job loses it and becomes angry at God. 00:39:31.899 --> 00:39:35.484 And he turns to God and he says, God, you need to come down and give me a reason as 00:39:35.484 --> 00:39:37.264 to why I'm experiencing suffering. 00:39:37.884 --> 00:39:43.704 Here I'm gonna put you on trial and I'm gonna demand that you explain why you've 00:39:43.704 --> 00:39:51.704 allowed suffering in my life. God shows up but doesn't not to be on trial for 00:39:51.704 --> 00:39:59.744 himself right he displays himself in full fury and glory and he essentially 00:39:59.744 --> 00:40:01.651 responds to Job and he's like... 00:40:02.831 --> 00:40:12.761 I am God, you are not, you cannot have an answer to this. You do not get the answer to why you 00:40:12.761 --> 00:40:20.201 experience this suffering. And then Job accepts that, accepts that he is not God and humbles 00:40:20.201 --> 00:40:28.325 himself. And that's the point of the book of Job is that we don't get the answer to why we 00:40:28.521 --> 00:40:30.387 we experiencing experience suffering. 00:40:31.281 --> 00:40:36.281 Sometimes I think God gives us a glimpse of that and gives us a glimpse of what he, 00:40:36.921 --> 00:40:39.983 uses to bring about in our lives because of suffering. 00:40:40.281 --> 00:40:44.141 Yeah. Produces character, right? Hope, right? Perseverance. 00:40:44.521 --> 00:40:48.841 You might get bits and pieces to the Y of your suffering, right? Like, 00:40:49.321 --> 00:40:52.487 well I'm suffering because somebody did something stupid and hurt me. 00:40:53.990 --> 00:40:58.609 Yep. That's an easy Y. Pick that up and take it and then move on. 00:40:59.481 --> 00:41:07.161 Too many people will spend years yelling into the clouds, demanding God to give them the 00:41:07.161 --> 00:41:10.501 full explanation of why. 00:41:10.780 --> 00:41:20.001 And you may get that later, but probably not the full picture until the other side of eternity. 00:41:20.232 --> 00:41:27.501 And so just from a very biblical perspective, the Bible is clear and Christian history is 00:41:27.501 --> 00:41:34.897 clear that suffering is part of the Christian life and that to suffer is an opportunity, 00:41:35.392 --> 00:41:40.848 to follow after Christ in a deeper way, in a more significant way. 00:41:41.307 --> 00:41:50.327 It's not an indication that we are somehow lacking. Jesus himself probably would not have suffered in the way that he did. Right. 00:41:51.164 --> 00:41:56.601 Yeah. You know. Exactly. Well, and this is like to finish like my little bit of 00:41:56.601 --> 00:42:01.337 tirade here. If you're experiencing suffering. 00:42:02.804 --> 00:42:09.187 God's glory and God's redemption is upside down from the way that we often would think about it. 00:42:09.844 --> 00:42:18.261 If we wish we could write the story of our lives, we wish we could write it very clean and very straightforward. 00:42:18.441 --> 00:42:21.763 We'd love the line graph to just go up. 00:42:22.141 --> 00:42:28.334 We'd love for us to continually get better, achieve our goals, go from one step to the other, 00:42:28.451 --> 00:42:36.334 not be sidetracked, not have detours, not totally miss things that we expected for our life or we wanted. 00:42:36.334 --> 00:42:40.334 That's the life we would love to draw for ourselves. 00:42:41.568 --> 00:42:51.137 And that's not the life that we live. Anybody lives. No one lives a life in a straight line without suffering and without detours in exactly the way they wanted it to. 00:42:51.334 --> 00:42:54.036 That just doesn't happen. 00:42:54.459 --> 00:43:07.098 God used the most horrendous thing in history, the death of his son, the death of God on a cross, to bring about redemption and glory for the world. 00:43:08.961 --> 00:43:19.719 What might God use your suffering in your life to bring about? It's not the reason. 00:43:20.334 --> 00:43:34.708 It's not the reason. But if you're in a place and you're struggling, and you're like, why? Where does this go? 00:43:35.842 --> 00:43:52.694 I might say, God wants to do something there. When I counsel people, I'm still relatively young, younger as a pastor goes. 00:43:52.694 --> 00:44:03.034 I don't know, maybe I'm not anymore. But I talk with people, a lot of times people older than myself and something I've been 00:44:03.034 --> 00:44:07.440 told multiple times is they're like, Luke, how, like you get it. 00:44:07.994 --> 00:44:17.974 How do you know all of this stuff? How is it that you're able to speak into my experience of suffering and sadness and depression 00:44:17.974 --> 00:44:19.467 in such a way? 00:44:19.854 --> 00:44:31.594 My answer is simply, well, I've been there. I've experienced clinical depression for multiples of years and I've had a long journey of dealing 00:44:31.594 --> 00:44:39.570 with that and processing through that, both physically, mentally, spiritually, and communally, 00:44:39.814 --> 00:44:48.594 of those aspects. And so, it's not the reason why I experienced depression, but it's something 00:44:48.594 --> 00:44:57.979 that God has allowed me to use in my ministry in a way that I think is, I hope, brings glory to him. 00:45:00.140 --> 00:45:09.043 I think if there's any last word to people who are suffering under this from, you know. 00:45:09.670 --> 00:45:15.530 Let me apologize on behalf of any other church or pastor who said, you just don't have enough 00:45:15.530 --> 00:45:20.422 faith or whatever the case may be. 00:45:20.790 --> 00:45:46.830 And to say that God is close to you, God is not far off. is not delight in your pain. God is not using it as some kind of harmful lever to make you suffer. 00:45:47.276 --> 00:45:56.630 And that there are people who love you enough to walk with you and receive you and accept 00:45:56.630 --> 00:46:06.990 you and pray with you and comfort you and help to resource you for victory or at least. 00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:12.509 Good passage through those things. 00:46:12.670 --> 00:46:17.110 Do you have any last words on the topic of mental health and faith? 00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:22.429 I mean, like we, I don't even, I don't even think we can say that we scratched the surface on it. 00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:28.870 No, we didn't. I think the last thing, one thing I would just simply say is like, I'll give this like 00:46:29.217 --> 00:46:35.230 example, which was an illustration that came, that was helpful for me at a certain point 00:46:35.230 --> 00:46:41.532 in my, in my journey is like, let's say for a moment that someone has a headache, right? 00:46:42.306 --> 00:46:48.070 Again, we seem to have a lot of clarity over how to deal with physical illnesses, but struggle 00:46:48.070 --> 00:46:51.867 with the mental. Let's say someone's got a headache. 00:46:52.170 --> 00:46:52.785 What would you do? 00:46:53.271 --> 00:47:05.270 Well, okay. I would take some Tylenol. I would maybe put down my screen, stay away from the phone, maybe go somewhere quiet and 00:47:05.270 --> 00:47:08.935 dark and I'd take a nap. 00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:19.950 Wouldn't just do one of those things. Right? Because you like or the point, the goal is 00:47:19.950 --> 00:47:27.290 to work through it, right? And deal with the headache. But for some reason, sometimes when 00:47:27.290 --> 00:47:34.590 it comes to mental health, we I don't know, out of like a sense of pride or a sense of 00:47:34.590 --> 00:47:40.670 conviction or something. We want to maybe just do the one thing. 00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:47.510 To kind of, I don't know, for some reason we are scared to take advantage of all avenues. 00:47:48.797 --> 00:47:55.590 And we wouldn't do that with a headache. I wouldn't take away the screen and just say, 00:47:55.590 --> 00:48:00.230 okay, let's see if the screen, getting rid of the screen will get rid of my headache. 00:48:01.112 --> 00:48:08.390 You'll probably see some benefit, but probably not right away or like maybe as quickly as you 00:48:08.390 --> 00:48:13.990 you maybe hope, as if you were also just to take the screen away, take some Tylenol and go to sleep. 00:48:14.868 --> 00:48:21.430 Right? Doing all three works towards the goal. Yeah. But for some reason, when we kind of come 00:48:21.430 --> 00:48:28.461 to mental health issues, we like to come in and we like to just pick one avenue and say, let's see if. 00:48:28.870 --> 00:48:35.750 This and almost out of we just want to prove that the other ones weren't needed. 00:48:36.077 --> 00:48:44.750 Rather than being willing to say like, we are in a place that let's just take everything we have and work on it together. 00:48:44.750 --> 00:48:53.750 And so to circle back to that first question, like what's the church's role in mental health and all of that? 00:48:53.750 --> 00:49:05.740 It's to be part of the team, part of the, like not the, but part of, like if you're 00:49:05.857 --> 00:49:12.750 dealing with it, like we want to be part of the solution or part of your healing and helping 00:49:12.750 --> 00:49:15.470 process. 00:49:15.470 --> 00:49:22.470 Not exclusive, not replacing, but coming alongside all the other things that you're seeking to 00:49:22.470 --> 00:49:31.790 do. Almost three years ago now, it's like April 26, 2020 in the middle of COVID. I preached a 00:49:31.790 --> 00:49:41.190 sermon ending with this. It was a sermon on the intersection of mental health and Christian 00:49:41.190 --> 00:49:45.550 faith and ended with this quote from a lady named Catherine Butler. I don't know, have any idea who 00:49:45.550 --> 00:49:53.541 I don't know where I came with this quote, but the quote reads this and we'll end this. 00:49:54.450 --> 00:49:56.450 Episode of the podcast here. 00:49:56.710 --> 00:50:03.490 Fellow churchgoers, hold the power to either fan the flame of condemnation or to snuff 00:50:03.490 --> 00:50:07.360 it out. Our words matter. 00:50:07.730 --> 00:50:14.589 With them, we may trample the downtrodden for the glory of our own lofty opinions, or 00:50:15.021 --> 00:50:19.432 we may choose to embrace those who are suffering with open arms and hearts, 00:50:19.570 --> 00:50:22.880 and in so doing, embody the love of Christ. 00:50:23.650 --> 00:50:24.716 We have a choice. 00:50:25.815 --> 00:50:33.710 We can fan the flame of condemnation and guilt and fear. 00:50:33.403 --> 00:50:40.293 Or we can stuff that flame out. We can trample over people with our lofty words in order to, 00:50:41.794 --> 00:50:46.373 support our own misguided opinions, or we can embrace those who are suffering with open arms 00:50:46.373 --> 00:50:55.413 and open hearts and in so doing embody the love of Jesus Christ for them. I think that when we're 00:50:55.549 --> 00:51:01.573 honest with ourselves, then the answer is pretty clear. So yeah, let's be Christ. Let's be Christ. 00:51:02.031 --> 00:51:14.573 Thanks for joining us today on the podcast as always. You can send in, text any of your questions to our texting line. 00:51:14.742 --> 00:51:17.560 We'll have it here on the screen and in the show notes. 00:51:18.118 --> 00:51:22.573 So just click on the description, it'll be there. So we appreciate you guys. 00:51:23.195 --> 00:51:23.726 Catch you in the next one. 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:33.673 Music.