Welcome to Dear Watchers, a comic book omniverse podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
We are traveling through the storylines before and after that inspired or took inspiration from this week's amazing alternate to universe. And your watchers on this journey are me, Mr. Keto. Not to be a modest, but Mr.
Fantastic, let's say, and no Guito, you can't see me right now, but don't worry, I'm still here. Okay, let me become visible again. It's me, the invisible boy, Rob.
Okay, here we are, obviously covering something fantastic today.
Yes. And an amazing fantasy, if you will. I know that's Crossing Spiderman not, uh, exactly. So you know what has been new in our part of the moon.
Uh, so last week's episode is still out, and we interviewed Tim Hanley, who most recently wrote Not All Superman about sexism and toxic masculinity in comics. And it was amazing to me how much more relevant that episode has become as there's this conversation, which I don't like to participate in. We posted from our account this week that we prefer not to elevate people, uh, who are just sort of hating things. But I know that conversation is happening for many people, and I know that it has made me think about how relevant Tim's points were. This was before SheHulk and before SheHulk reaction and before people saying SheHulk can't twerk and the MCU is falling apart and whatever people are saying that I try not to consume and try to avoid it, I hope people go listen and read his book because it gives you the whole historic context in terms of what comics are and who's created them for so long. But mhm, it's just annoying that the conversation keeps needing to be had.
Yeah. Despite this podcast, I am not really in the comic book twitcher verse the same way you are. So actually, when you mentioned this and we're posting from our account about this, it was really the first I heard about it, which I'm very lucky, I guess then, that I live in that.
Bubble, I feel like I can avoid most of it. I tend to see people who we are connected to, reactions to things that I luckily did not see and avoided.
And what I loved from doing this show and meeting several of our friends who have been on the show and have other podcasts and have active Twitter accounts is just sharing what we love out into the world. And for me, that's the only thing I want to do on Twitter. I just want to say that I like something. I don't want to ever really criticize something, at least criticize art, I should say. Thank you. Thank you.
That's our audience reaction. So, anyway, that is, uh, our episode.
From that's a long they like that. They really liked that one. Yeah. Okay, take your seats. Take your seats.
So, uh, that was last week's episode. We have some really exciting episodes coming up. I think every episode we do is exciting, but we have more guests, more interviews, more themes, more things, more alternate universes, more exploration of the Omniverse. We are, of course, getting ready for the fall, which is our favorite season for so many reasons. But one is going to some M conventions, horror convention, chiller theater in New Jersey.
We may or may not have purchased a twelve foot skeleton today.
Don't we have to reveal that with a picture? But, uh, we'll also be at New York Comic Con, of course, so we'll see any of our friends who are there, there.
Now, are we going to be wearing every day our deer watcher shirts? We can't wear the same shirt. Both wearing deer watchers.
We have to wear stickers. We have to wear all sorts of things to identify us. But we will be there for all weekend. And, uh, we also are getting ready to launch, uh, exciting spin off podcast that will be part of a patron program. So that's the first we're saying that out loud, but we've been working on it for some number of weeks now. We're very excited and a lot more information to come later in the fall, so stay with us. And that's all that's new.
I know. You're forcing me to read even more comics. There's the audience again, which is why two of the comics we had to read today, or that we're going to be discussing for two pages along. So, hey, maybe if we could just keep that trend up. Yes. Well, dear Watchers, we have an, uh, exciting show for you today. And if you're joining us for the first time, after a quick summary of our alternate Earth we are visiting. We have origins of the story, what inspired this other reality. Then, exploring multiversity, we dive deeper into our alternate universe and finally pondering possibilities. We examine the impact and what's followed or what's coming in the future. So with that, welcome to episode 61, and let's check out what's happening in the multiverse with today's alternate universe. And today we are asking the question kind of, sort of, what if the Fantastic Four had made it to the moon and other retold origins of the first Family of Marvel. Yes. So, uh, let's talk Fantastic Four. I've heard of them. They're a famous group. There's the Orange Rock Guy, the Invisible One, all that. So we've covered them before, and this is a very unique episode. So, Guido, explain this very unusual episode. Let's recap our backgrounds with the FF.
Ah, so we have covered the Fantastic Four a lot. And if you're interested, I mean, we cover them on our first episode because we cover what if Spiderman joined them? We actually cover another cookie one with them. What if they went to the Land of Oz and we covered that, uh, back. I don't know the episode number, but I'm looking for it to help people get there. Number 23, episode 23 we covered what if they had different superpowers in episode 25. What if the original Marvel bullpen were the FF in 33? So we have explored the Fantastic Four a lot and today we are exploring an Earth. It is an alternate Earth. We're keeping with our typical format here that we've started to push past those boundaries more and more in our episodes. We are covering an alternate Earth that's from one of the many parity issues that exist. So there are a few in the what if titles themselves and then there are a few one shot parity issues and they typically will contain like a single panel what if joke, which we haven't yet covered, but one day we will. This is one of the sort of mini parody stories in there, but it gave us the opportunity to explore some facets of the Fantastic Four's origin that we haven't before and this idea of just sort of retelling their origin so we'll get more into what all of that means as we go through our three sections. But what was your background with the FF before this podcast and since this podcast?
Well, they were never a comic that I read regularly. I would pick them up occasionally. They just kind of just seeked into my knowledge. So I knew about them, but I never really went out of my way to read them. I did watch the cartoon growing up in the was actually thinking, of course they are in a lot of movies. They've had movies. They might have a new movie eventually, very soon, perhaps an hour days after.
This podcast comes out.
Exactly. But you know, I was thinking, I have only seen one of their movies and the movie I've seen is the Roger Corman movie that was never officially released. That is the only thing either jessica Chris Evans movie.
I have not been watching those in the next few weeks.
Yeah, I think I got probably, uh, stoned one night and watch the Roger Corman won illegally downloaded something.
We have that documentary we supported all about the making of that that we have not yet watched that came out just a few years ago. We'll have to do that also.
Mhm and how about you with the Fantastic Four? I know you've been reading their comics a lot more recently.
Uh, yeah. I mean, they've always been on the periphery. I liked them more than, say, Iron Man or Captain America. When I was reading Marvel in the never read them consistently. I read when Reed died was a big deal. When sue became malice and was evil, that was a big thing. They were part of all the major crossovers, infinity War and the things that I was reading, they would sometimes intersect with the Xmen. Heroes were born, of course, so I read them more. But I never had read Bronze Age, certainly Silver Age FF in a large swash until this podcast. And now I'm gearing up, hopefully with Elliott, so I might have to leave him in my reading dust to read everything from issue one. So we've been collecting the omnibuses and I'm really excited to start that reading and maybe end when the movie comes out because I've learned that there are just pockets of the story that are wacky and I love and are really interesting and that's been fun to discover or discover with a new context. So I'm getting increasingly into them. And some of that is because of this show.
Well, I can also see you are for anyone who's listening to the show before they know that you are a diehard Xmen fan. That is your brand. And I think they do share a lot of similarities with the Xmen in that they're both kind of these family units. They're not just teams, they're families, really. And then the mutation element of the thing, which you also see in some of the Xmen characters, the kind of squabbling amongst them as much as kind of taking on external heroes. And then the big things, the big stories about going to other dimensions, going to other planets. They both share a lot of those kind of aspects.
Yeah, definitely. And it's been fun reading more and more and more and more of it. So let's get into what we read today.
Yes. So we're going to jump into our rocket ship, be bombarded by some cosmic rays as we encounter our origins of the story.
Right now on this very show, you're going to get the answer to all your questions.
Our amazing story begins a few years ago. So we've covered the very first appearance of The Fantastic Four a couple of times on this show. So we are not covering that issue, but we kind of sort of are, because this is a really unusual issue that we're going to discuss, which is fantastic for volume one, issue number 126 from September 1972, the way it Began.
And this issue is written by Roy Thomas pencilled by John Busema inked by Joe Senate lettered by John Castanza edited by Roy So this is a real powerhouse Bronze Age issue with some incredible icons creating it. So in this issue, what's happening is that Reed has fixed developed his thought projector helmet. And once he's announced that he's done that, we see lots of tension in the group. And the group sort of splits and actually talks about ending the team, that they want to be done with each other. So they each go their separate ways. Reid and sue go off together. Johnny goes off, alicia leaves, ben is left with this thought projector, and he starts to think about where it all began, where all of this turmoil started. And the only thing that he can think of, the most revolting thing he can think of, is himself. And he goes back to the origin. What's interesting in this retelling of the origin, since he's watching it through the thought projector, is that he says it's not happening the way it happened. So some of that is like they update the dialogue, they update the looks, alter. None of it really diverges from the original origin, of course, but it's just an interesting element and we can talk more about that real quick. Finish the summary. He goes through the rest of this origin from his perspective, goes through the origin of moleman. And this all sort of builds to him deciding that he's going to demand read give Alicia sites. And that ends the issue. And we didn't continue with the story because really, for us, what we were looking at was the first major retelling of the origin and how they did it. So what do you think of this issue?
It's interesting because I don't know if this is Roy Thomas's writing style or if he was trying to do the Stanley writing. Uh, it's almost like this weird jazz or something because everybody just talks in lingo the entire time. Everyone has such their own unique way of speaking. And it's full of phrases from the 70s, but also other colloquialisms. So I found myself rereading things a few times because it doesn't flow like it feels like it should flow. And I don't know if that's a choice or if that was just part of the style.
Uh, I don't know either what it came from, but I thought I attributed it to sort of 1972. So you're kind of on the cusp. You're in early Bronze Age and things are starting to change and tones of things in comics are starting to change. But I thought it was a choice because you have that one scene where Ben says nuts in huge language. He's pissed at everyone. He says nuts. And there is an editor's note from Roy. There's an asterisk and it says, Bashful Benji's. Precise comment available on request, sent in plain brown wrapper. Roy. So clearly he's pushing at the boundaries. He's trying to make them seem cool. Right. He's kind of telling us as the audience, no, Ben actually cursed here, but I can't put that in the book.
Yeah.
And then even when he's retelling the origin, he does that a few times. He has been I think he's saying something actually racist, talking about Harlem and Watts. And so they're supposed to be, I think, really cool and hip, which is why he gives himself the excuse. Roy gives himself the excuse of that. This is being seen through 1972, Ben's mind. And so that's why the language isn't weird.
Yeah. And everyone is a big man or son or little guy. Everyone has a nickname throughout the entire maybe not sue as much, but all the male characters are constantly just being called nicknames and Lingo the entire and.
I think some of that is because they're all just frankly, they're all jerks. They're all assholes in this issue. There's just no other way. And, uh, that's part of the thing I thought was fun about it was that they are actually all being jerks to each other. There is nothing and even in the origin, like, why I did the intro I did. I love that he misremembers, or perhaps correctly remembers that Reed decides to name himself and he's like, I'll go ahead and name myself Mr. Fantastic. What are each of you going to be? And he says, in that, immodest as it may sound, mine will be Mr. Fantastic. So they're all just being written as total jerks here.
Yes. Uh, the one panel that definitely, uh, made me chuckle cringe at the same time is when Ben is commenting to Alicia. What's going on? He says, Sheesh, didn't you see all that mush stuff, Alicia? Oops, I could cut my tongue out. I shouldn't have said C. And it's like she's blind, of course. And of course then does become the crux of Journey on this issue, but it's like, wow, I'm surprised they even named that there.
Yeah, I agree. One interesting thing I'd say about this retelling of the origin is I actually think it ties. And this was completely unintentionally. And we can talk more about this in our third segment. It's interesting that it's being recast. It was always traumatic for Ben, even rereading some of those Silver Age issues. We knew that Ben was the trauma. We know historically that a lot of people think that was Kirby sort of perhaps autobiographically, talking about his own issues with himself and the way he looked and his life and his own potential struggle with depression. But in this, it's just interesting to see how the whole origin starts to sort of hinge m on Ben and Ben's choice and Ben's transformation, and Ben's sort of prompting this because that's been picked up later in what we read.
And we get his commentary throughout that, too. He's actually commenting on his memories or his distorted memories. So we're not just getting the kind of nonjudgmental just looking through the fourth wall version that we get from the original one. We actually are getting him commenting on this.
Yes. Which is a great way of doing a, uh, retold origin. I mean, if you think about it, right, this is only eleven years after they debuted, so people it's definitely fresh in people's minds. It's not that far away like it is today. So it's a very cool device to retell an origin, but do it through someone's subjective memory.
Yeah. And like you said, they do change some other things, even visually, because in one panel, we do see the thing as he is depicted in the original comic, which is much more monstrous. And Ben even comments on that. Oh, that was my original form until I'm the blue eyed hunk that you see today. And he kind of makes a joke out of it in a self deprecating way still. But then when we actually see the origin story it is the current day thing which is a lot less grotesque.
Yeah.
So a lot less grotesque.
Yeah. Well Ensues hair is very, I think supposed to be more last thing. I'll note that I'm looking through the panels and was also a difference was I found it fascinating and I suspect it doesn't mean what it read to me at first but he talks about that maybe when they go to take the rocket and they shouldn't have done this and this is the origin. He says maybe if we'd had to wait for official clearance we might have sobered up and the whole thing never would have happened. And I suspect he just came to clear thinking uh, I really read that as like whoa, is he saying that the whole Fantastic Fours origin happen because they got a little drunk and rowdy? So it's an interesting again, it would be through his memory, it wouldn't necessarily be true but it was interesting to me that he talks about like that it all hinged upon sort of them getting wrapped up in this idea that they were going to go up and defy orders and that it all had to do with him being called a coward. Yeah, it's very interesting retelling mhm anything.
Else you want to add to that? No, but we'll circle back to that last point about Ben being a coward, I think when we talk about one of our future issues and quotes because it's not quite an issue. Yes, story exactly. But before we get to that, why don't we put on our vision helmets, whatever it's called, I don't even remember and we'll project into exploring multiversity.
Will.
The future you describe. So today we don't have a what if. We have a Wah and that is Waha number one from October 2005 and that is what if the Fantastic Four had made it to the moon?
I've been turning laughter here because this is supposed to be a humor issue. We'll see if we think it worked. This is from Ed Brewbreaker wrote this jim Ma food penciled it to also did the inking. Sean Struble colored chris Elliopolis lettered. It's. Edited by Stevie Sabosky this is an Earth with the designation believe it or not, it's Earth designation 20 051-320-0513.
Again, where did that come from?
Uh, artificial post designations that are inserted then into some of the handbooks or just done in the online fandom community. This is a two page story in Wahha which is this parody one shot issue and even though it's called Wahha, it actually is all parodying what ifs. So every parity in the Waha parody is a what if question. Some of them are single panels, some of them are multi page stories. All of them are a lot of really almost intolerable inside joke stuff amongst the writers, especially Bendis and Brewbaker. So that's in most of the other stories that's not present in this story, luckily. And so in this story on Earth 20 Zero.
And before you say that too, whenever we say the title, I just only hear Fred Willard saying what happened from A Mighty Wind. That's the only thing I hear when.
I hear exactly on Earth 200-5131 is Fantastic Four had made it to the moon. We get really, uh, cartoony style, actually a cool art style depiction. M in this two page story in which the Fantastic Four go off in their rocket. They got bombarded by cosmic rays. They get their powers, but they end up on the moon. The rocket does not return to Earth, which of course in most other of their origins it does, even in the retellings, even in the alterations. So they end up on the moon and they sort of start exploring what each of their powers are. And Reid is trying to learn about the cosmic rays and explain them to everyone. And they're making fun of him because he's a nerd. And Johnny can't turn into a flame, but says that he feels like he's, uh, going to change into fire. But why can't he? And Reed realizes, well, we're on the Moon. That's simple. You can't have fire without oxygen. There's no oxygen on the moon. And all four of them drop dead and they are dead. And we cut to Uatu, who is drinking his giant slurped like a big gulf just flies on by and they are dead. So that is our what if the Fantastic Four had made it to the Moon. Did you enjoy this comedic humorous two pager?
Uh, I love the punchline at the end that they just all dropped at. I think that is great. And I think some of the jokes, what I liked was some of this stuff actually hidden in the background. So when Reed is trying to read a book that's from a little news stand there, and one of the books is so you've been exposed to cosmic rays and there's actually what if is one of the ones there. And atomic something for dummies. So I liked all those little jokes in the background. The whole thing as a whole definitely feels like it's, as you said, written by a very white guy in joke kind of sophomoric feel to the whole to the rest of it. But there are some good little bits in there.
Yes, I agree. And I do think the punchline works because you don't expect it even when you're going through the panels. And Johnny's like, why can't I ignite?
Why?
And then Reed explains it. And then I love that you just have four little tombstones.
Yes. And there is some other fun things. Like in the second panel, they have the iconic thing of them all putting their hands in together and Johnny's putting his hand in there and Reed says, ow, Johnny. Because it's like, oh yeah, if johnny was putting his hand in there, wouldn't he be burning at least at least Reed and sue in the original.
It's not inflamed. We saw that in every, uh, month.
Okay. Uh, actually, really you mentioned the art style, which I actually really like.
Yeah, I do too. I agree. It's borderline sort of underground comics kind of style.
I can't remember who the artist is, but I love that comic auto, uh, that came out a few years ago about the psycho director. And it reminds me a lot of that sort of exaggerated, very, uh, tech avery almost kind of thing.
Yeah. And if that matches, because it is clearly I mean, they all die. It's clearly for adults. The whole issue is clearly meant for adults. But I like that Ben and this sort of ties back to the Roy Thomas issue, too. Ben curses. He says, like, you and all your nerd shit. I mean, it's done as the symbols. And then he says, I'm going to beat your ass with this moon tree. So they do get ass in there. So clearly it is meant for an adult audience. I have to point out to you that Brewbaker's overwriting of UAE is kind of fun at the end. So mhm uh, do you want to read it in character? Read those final two panels?
Sure. I don't know what the character is. I have a, um, cold reading, but oh, always observing, sneaking a peek from the dawn of man until the last star winks out of the sky. For I am the watcher and I see all things and I know all, and even though I do, I could never help. But I can only watch as you make your glorious human errors all your quirky decisions that drive me up the wall. Has his little jetpack he has little jet pack that launches him to Earth. As we said, he's enjoying a Wolverine big gulp that says fun on it.
So I think that's it for our, uh, alternate universe. It's a silly, obviously completely comedic retelling of the origin. There are other what if that do retell the FF's origin. We haven't checked those out yet, and at some point we will. But this was just a way to get a silly one in there that had never been revisited before.
And if people want to read this is this on Marvel Limited or is this harder to find?
It might be harder to find. A lot of the oneshot parity stuff is harder to find. I don't know if Waha is on there, but you can check for Wahha number one. And otherwise you're not missing much. It's okay. Let's get to the good stuff.
Yes. So we will jump into the future and ponder some possibilities. So, guitar, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
All right, so obviously with that what if selection that alternate Earth, there's not too much we could figure out. That was inspired by it. So I was thinking, okay, it's a retelling of their origin. That's how pages that's how we got the free issue. And then I discovered that in the just released this week when we're recording Fantastic Four Full Circle by Alex Ross, there is a two page retelling of their origin on the inner flap. So why don't we give the credits and then I'll explain more about what Alex Ross had to say and why we chose it and then we can get into it.
Yes. So this is fantastic. For Full Circle from September 2022. And it's a copublished hardcover graphic novel with Abram Arts under an imprint called Marvel Art.
Yeah. So this is a first time thing. It's really extraordinary. It is written and drawn by Alex Ross. It is colored by Alex Ross with Josh Johnson, and it is lettered by Ariana Mayer. It is an extraordinary, beautiful, gorgeous work. It is unmissable for anyone who is a Fantastic Four or Alex Ross fan or fan of psychedelic art. It m is simply stunning and it is actually shockingly, believe it or not, the first long form work that Ross has both written and done the art for. And we're not going to talk about the main story full Circle. The main story is inspired by actually an early FF issue by Lee and Kirby. It's not a direct retelling, but it's uh, inspired by and it's an old I don't know if it's supposed to be canonical. I guess it is supposed to be canonical. But having taken place in the past, it's nothing new. It's not moving the story forward. But my gosh, it is utterly stunning. It is really, truly one of the most beautiful things. But what we read is actually the dust jacket flap. That sounds ridiculous, but the dust jacket flap has a large two page spread poster and this uh, retells the origin of the Fantastic Four from Sue's perspective.
And of course, because this is Alex Ross, this dust jacket looks better than most other comics that are on the shelf.
Hands down, everything about this book. You uh, could pick any square inch of this book and it looks better than the majority of stuff that's out there.
The arc here really actually reminded me a lot of the Marvel trading cards from the hills of Brand Brothers. Yeah, that super shiny look. That lovely painted work.
Explaining the flap and this retelling of the FF's origin, alex Ross said in a very recent interview, was saying that he wanted to talk about it from Sue's perspective, unlike certain iterations of the team over time. I didn't want to play with any idea that there was such family disharmony that we're watching a marriage in dissolution. Whenever you're seeing Sue Storm, she's not the one being dragged into anything. She's been on the scene for a long time. I wanted to present that she has a strong marriage with her husband and they're. Respectful to each other. So he was really interested in repositioning sue here. And it's a cool thing to think about on this simply two page seven panel comic. But basically in this comic, we get Sue's omniscient narration of their origin. What do you think? And then we can point out some of the things it does because I actually think I have more to say about this than other comics we read, even though it's so short.
Well, I really liked it and I think the thing I liked about it the most is now having covered her origin in the original telling and then just this Roy Thomas issue that we discussed, sue is always in the background. Sue is almost an afterthought at times in the storytelling. It's really focusing on Reid and Ben and even Johnny has more than sue. So I love, uh, the concept of actually having this from her perspective. And it makes a lot of sense because you have Reid and Ben who are known each other since college and are these uh, partners and scientists. So let's take kind of the viewpoint of the person who is a little outside and her powers, of course, reflect that as well and have her be the narrator.
Yeah, and there was a run on the comics, there were people tried to make her the narrator. But yeah, to do it at the origin, you get to sort of see what she's thinking and it is neat. I think Ross's interview gave it a lot more meaning for me because he wasn't just kind of saying, well, what was sue thinking when this was happening? He's really trying to transform this idea that sue was dragged along which is baked into the origin. But he wants to do away with that. He wants her to have agency. And I think that's really powerful. So I like that in this, it's sort of building. You actually don't know. I mean, I knew because I chose it for this reason, but you don't really even know that she's narrating it. I'm curious. Mhm people could probably read this and think it's Reed's voice and assume it's Reid's voice the whole time. Toward the end she says my brother Johnny, so that you then get it. But in the final panel when she says reed and I, Susan Storm Richards, would eventually marry and begin a family. But our core family is forever defined by the bonds of friendship. So I just think it's a really ah, powerful transformation of her and her willingness to step into this and her desire to hold onto it and what it means to her that it is her family. Like we were talking about chosen family. So I think it's really cool that he's able to do this with 150 words and seven panels.
Yeah, totally. And even the Roy Thomas issue, and I can't remember if this is actually in the original, but even in the Roy Thomas issue. She does make the decision to go. It doesn't really feel like she's being dragged along. She says to read, I'm going wherever you're going. And then Johnny basically says, well, I'm going wherever my sister's going. So, of course it doesn't make logical sense of why they're getting on this aircraft. And I think that would be totally addressed if uh, an eventual movie version. But, uh, even there, she does have the autonomy. Even though she's still not to the forefront, she does feel like, hey, she is making the decision to join this. And obviously Ross is here taking it even one step further.
Yeah. And the other thing he notices and pulls out because I think he's noticing things that are there and just pulling them out in a way that they hadn't been pulled out, especially in the Silver Age. They were, I think, pulled out later. But the Ben coward line is also something he pulls out in this because he has her say again, in what little text this has, she says, before our doom flight, I called Bennett coward all ah. Because he wanted more research about the cosmic rays. If I hadn't challenged his ego, Ben might have kept us from our fate. So again, it's hinging on Ben and sue being the one who called him a coward. And what that meant in their origin, just as we saw, was a big sticking point in Ben's memory of this event.
Yes. Yeah. And the other big thing, uh, is that she drives home here. And this, I think, has been addressed many times in the Fantastic Four lore, is that Ben is the only one whose appearance is changed permanently, and that he is affected more. And they in fact, she makes the point of saying we have to stay together as a family and as a team, in part because we owe them, because the rest of us don't have that burden. And when you think about it, it's like, well, the rest of them have. If you ask a normal person on the street, what kind of powers would you want? It's like, Well, I'd want to fly, I'd want to turn invisible, maybe I'd want to be stretchy and impervious. Well, the rest of the team has that and they look like normal people. And in fact, in the case of Johnny, it probably attracts girls to him to have these powers. And then, um, is this monster?
In a way yeah, in the way that Ross writes the line you just mentioned. Again, I think if you read this slowly, actually you finished reading and I said Read it again because it's so short. But she says, we made a vow to use these powers to help others. We also needed to support one another, especially Ben. And then there's a gap, so you sort of can pause and see she's thinking through her narration and says, we owed him. So he captures so much feeling and emotion about this origin and what it means and what it means to each of them a little differently than we realized, perhaps at times, all in a dust jacket of a book.
It would almost be an interesting comic or TV show or movie to actually do it. Almost like William Falkner or Game of Thrones, the not books and have different episodes or different books. From the perspective of each one of the four members, I think it would.
Be more interesting and this leads into something I know you're interested in us exploring right now. I think it would be more interesting to just do that with really strong and nuanced character voices. So to tell the origin, but have it be clear what each person's experience of that origin is without using the trope. Although I like broken structure in that way, nonlinear structure, but without using the trope of retelling the story four times, I think you could probably, with a really good writer and with incredible performers, get that same feeling out of mhm a telling of the origin, where it's like, it's not as simple as it looks like it should be. Each of them is having a different experience. Even if you pull in from the Thomas issue that we read, this idea of Reed being arrogant, pulling his experience, right. It happens, and he's immediately excited, right? This is awesome to him. And then sue is here thinking about what it means for Ben and what it means for her and each of their relationships, and then Ben is just distraught. Like, you can really get at that, I think, well constructed scene.
Mhm yeah. And I think going even back to Stan and Jack's original issue, it's one of the things that makes the Fantastic Four stand out, is that they all have these very well defined personalities. And that's what we were talking about with Roy's issue as well. They all speak so distinctly, almost sometimes, to the point where, for me, it was jarring because they all have their own way of speaking so much. But I think that is something that you can really explore in a movie, too, in a way, or TV show, in a way that I don't think too many of the other MCU properties have done to that extent.
Mhm so here we are with three retellings of the FF's origin and you wanted us to ponder the possibility of the FF on screen.
Yes. Well, I think the biggest thing that I'm thinking is that we won't see their origin on screen because we have seen it in a couple of films as well, plus the Roger Corman movie. And people know their origin. I think they're like Spiderman, where even if you've never read their story, you kind of know it. Unlike Iron Man or Thor, where a lot of people, including myself, until we started covering Thor, wouldn't know his origin, and they decided not to really pursue it in the movies, but I think people know it. So I think we're going to jump in like we did with Spiderman movies and just they're going to be established and there's going to be a quick mention of what happened, and maybe we'll go back and explore it in flashbacks or something like that. But I don't think we will have a whole movie that will be dedicated to it.
I don't think we'll have a whole movie dedicated to it either. And I think that my bets, I think with a lot of other people bets is on the fact that they're in quantum media, m um, but I don't know that we can do without their origin in the same way that Spiderman Spiderman, we still do not even have details of his origin confirmed in the MCU. We still don't even know precisely how it happened. So I don't think they can do something like that because all three of these issues I mean, maybe not the parody one, but what Ross's story and what Roy Thomas retelling story makes clear is that so much of what's interesting about the Fantastic Four is what it means for them to come together and how that works. And so if you, uh, have them already established as a heroic unit, I think you lose a lot of that because unless you introduce conflict, but then I think that's not as interesting, and it will feel more artificial. So if you have this fully formed unit team of four people who love each other and our family and function as heroes. And then you only start to see the cracks by introducing some external pressure in like a villain or something. I think that's not quite as interesting as seeing what it takes to form. Because we actually haven't even in the Avengers. We didn't get a lot of that because the Avengers in the MCU were constructed as like a black ops that can be called upon when needed. We got a little bit of the arguing and all of that kind of stuff, but we never got what does it mean to be to live together? That might be one of the differences. These people are family. They live together in that way. It is very X Men, which I think is what you were pointing to earlier, why I like these stories so much. So I think we need that in the MCU. So I agree with you that I think we're going to be introduced to them post origin, but somehow we're going to get that origin, whether it's through a prequel movie or whether it's through flashbacks, or whether we're introduced to them very shortly after they were granted their powers, so that we can see Ben's feeling like a monster and we can see Johnny's Hot headedness. We need to see all of that. I think.
Yeah, I think they could do something very interesting with less conventional storytelling and kind of jumping around a lot more, or even something like they did with she Hulk, which was give us her origin, but not spend too much time on it, unlike, say, a Ms. Marvel, where basically the whole first season was her origin story. Uh, but that makes sense because that's a character that is unfamiliar. And they've also changed her origin from the comics. So I think that made a lot of sense. But here I could see them jumping around. And I do think it would be so cool if they were in some ways trapped in the 60s, because from the 60s, which I know a lot of people are speculating, because going back to what we were talking about before, the way they speak, and Ben speaks like no one in New York really speaks. You and I have lived in New York for 20 years, and people don't. Some people do, but not a lot. And he's such a New York character of a certain time. And it would be great to actually have trapped him in that 60s kind of mode because then he could really speak like that. And I'd love for them to kind of play up the father's nose. Best idea of read. And also the hot rod loving teen of Johnny. And then also, even with sue, going back to sue, having maybe seeing what her journey is from maybe being a much more conventional Donna Reid kind of woman in the, uh, modern woman that might emerge, uh, over the course of a couple of films.
I would love that. I think it'd be perfect. I think it'd be unlike anything else. The closest that they came was obviously with Captain America being displaced from time. But you didn't get a whole lot of that story. Uh, you got more of the displaced soldier boy, and then, of course, you got the Peggy relationship stuff as a part of the larger arc, but you didn't get a whole lot of the story of, like, what does it mean to be transported through time and in a universe where we're encountering more and more time travel? I think that it's an important story for that reason. But then I think what everything you just described is really fun. It also pays neat homage to the origins of Marvel. So it's cool to have, like, these sixties characters show up and be very hip and talk like Stan and Jack and all those yeah, totally.
I love that. Before we wrap up, too, I am a villain person. I love the villains. I don't think we'll see Doom as the main villain again because he's been done so much. I think, obviously, they will be setting up Doom because Doom is going to play a big role in the MCU.
I don't agree.
Um go ahead. The villain I'd love to see. Now, uh, I haven't read full circle yet, but I was looking through at the amazing art and I do see Nihilis is featured in it and I think he would be a really cool villain for the MCU and I think he would be a great fit for kind of a dimension hopping cosmic story in the way that they are bound to introduce them.
I agree. And yeah, I think with all the cosmic stuff we already know that Nova is coming and Annihilation being pretty iconic and being what actually created the Guardians of the Galaxy that we know and have seen in the movies, I think that Annihilus is a good idea. It would be something interesting and it would unite a lot of the elements that we know are coming up in the cosmic world. I do however, think Doom is coming very soon. I don't know how, but I think Doom is on the horizon. I think we will see Doom by the end of this saga. Not this phase, but by the end of this saga. I think Doom is showing up because one, Doom has not been done well in any of the movies that Doom has ever been in.
Yeah, I haven't seen the movies. M I have.
And I saw Julian McMahon. But it wasn't a good doom. So I think there's opportunity to correct a lot. It's such a great part of the story, the Secret Wars of the Hickman Secret Wars. So no matter what Secret Wars we're pulling from for Secret Wars involves Doom, um, at the center. So I don't see how we could do this extraordinary build towards Secret Wars without including Doom in some way. I don't know that it'll play the same role he does in either the Jim Shooter Secret Wars or the Hickman Secret Wars. But I think he has to have a presence and perhaps then his presence becomes the centerpiece to the next saga. But he has to have a presence, I think.
I think he'll definitely have a presence. I just don't think he will be the main antagonist of the first movie because I don't think they want to go back over that material.
Well, I don't think any of the movies had a moleman, right? And so that's a real fun moleman would be number one. It's initiative retelling we saw today from the 70s. They retell that story and that would be fun and even Roy Thomas is retelling of that. In that issue. We didn't talk much about it because it wasn't related to what we were doing, but he found a good emotional journey in that. Right? Moleman is feeling like Ben and Moleman feel alike, mhm? And so that's uh, interesting parallel and could make for a really interesting villain and again would be very different from stuff we've seen.
Agreed. Well, I think we are both very much looking forward to it and I'm also really looking forward to actually reading Full Circle because if you're Jack Kirby, Jim Storranko, psychedelic M arts fan, it is just beautiful to look at.
Yes. So of everything we read today, read that, read its dust jacket and read its book. Don't worry about the other things. We summarize them enough for you. All right. So I have been Mr. Fantastico.
And I have been the Invisible Boy. Rob and that's a wrap. Thank you, dear. Watchers for listening.
Our reading list is in the show notes. You can follow us on Twitter only on Twitter at, uh, deer watchers. Please follow us. Please share, please spread the word. Lots of exciting stuff coming that we're excited you'll be a part of.
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In the meantime, in the words of Huawei, keep pondering the possibilities. Yada, yada, yada.