1
00:00:03,820 --> 00:00:06,600
Miles Davis thought he was crazy.

2
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,270
Dizzy Gillespie said that he had no idea what this music was, but it wasn't

3
00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:12,040
jazz.

4
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,860
And Max Roach once followed him out of the Five Spot and punched him in the

5
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,630
face. Ornette

6
00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:23,560
Coleman, he was divisive, he

7
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,360
was revolutionary. In 1959, he packed the Five

8
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,980
Spot in downtown Manhattan

9
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,920
with musical royalty clamoring to hear sounds unlike anything they'd heard

10
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,820
before, the music that would define

11
00:00:37,740 --> 00:00:38,680
The Shape of Jazz to

12
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,260
Come.

13
00:01:04,820 --> 00:01:05,900
I'm Adam Maness.

14
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:06,720
And I'm Peter Martin.

15
00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:08,200
And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast.

16
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:09,460
Music Explored.

17
00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:11,280
Explored, brought to you today by Open Studio.

18
00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:14,620
Go to openstudiojazz.com for oh,

19
00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:16,280
oh-

20
00:01:16,340 --> 00:01:17,200
Oh, Dobio

21
00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,890
... oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh-

22
00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:20,890
Oh

23
00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:20,890
... oh, oh-

24
00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:20,890
Oh, save it

25
00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:23,820
... all of your jazz lesson needs. I'm trying to be fresh, Peter, because this

26
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,270
album we're listening to today inspired new sounds.

27
00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:27,050
I thought I would make some new sounds.

28
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,540
That's right. That's right. 1959's The Shape of Jazz to

29
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,260
Come, one of the greatest titled records, maybe the greatest

30
00:01:34,660 --> 00:01:36,000
titled record ever.

31
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,090
That's a bold statement. That's a bold statement.

32
00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:38,190
It's a bold statement.

33
00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:39,520
We'll get into the title actually.

34
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:39,590
Yeah.

35
00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:40,200
We'll get into the title.

36
00:01:40,260 --> 00:01:42,620
Yeah, yeah. Oh, what great stuff here.

37
00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:46,110
Uh, what a, what a pivotal rec- what, what a pivotal year, 1959.

38
00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:47,180
How many times have we said that?

39
00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:50,010
I mean, we've said it now, I think this is the fifth album we've done-

40
00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:50,380
Wow

41
00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:51,890
... from that year, so we did Time Out.

42
00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:52,170
We've done-

43
00:01:52,180 --> 00:01:53,300
Wow, we're really old souls, aren't we?

44
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,940
We've done Kind of Blue, which by the way, we're gonna be redoing Kind of Blue

45
00:01:55,950 --> 00:01:56,570
pretty soon, I think.

46
00:01:56,580 --> 00:01:56,760
Yep.

47
00:01:56,780 --> 00:01:58,720
It's time. It's time for a re-Kind of Blue.

48
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,810
We've done Charles Mingus, Mingus Ah Um.

49
00:02:00,860 --> 00:02:01,720
Yeah. That one's right.

50
00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:03,880
And we've done Nina Simone live.

51
00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:04,560
At the Town Hall.

52
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,260
At Town Hall.

53
00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:05,270
Right.

54
00:02:05,270 --> 00:02:06,760
And this will be the fifth album.

55
00:02:06,820 --> 00:02:07,440
And Giant Steps-

56
00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:07,780
Well-

57
00:02:07,790 --> 00:02:08,150
... John Coltrane

58
00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:09,789
... is that 1959, do you think?

59
00:02:09,789 --> 00:02:11,320
Ish, yeah. Recorded in 1959.

60
00:02:11,380 --> 00:02:12,740
No, but you know, this is an interesting one.

61
00:02:12,780 --> 00:02:15,380
I don't know what your relationship is with The Shape of Jazz to Come.

62
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,040
We actually haven't talked about it, but for me, this is one that hit me at a time

63
00:02:19,060 --> 00:02:21,480
in my musical life that was so impactful.

64
00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,540
I was a very young man when I heard this for the first time.

65
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:23,640
Mm.

66
00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:27,680
I had literally never heard anything like it, which is I

67
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,140
think probably how everybody else must have felt in

68
00:02:31,180 --> 00:02:34,780
1959. You know, I mentioned in that intro that Miles Davis wasn't a

69
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,860
fan. Miles would eventually come around-

70
00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:37,260
Oh, yeah

71
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,130
... and start making music that kinda sounds a little like this album.

72
00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:41,130
I know.

73
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:41,510
You know what I'm saying?

74
00:02:41,510 --> 00:02:42,420
And be influenced by.

75
00:02:42,460 --> 00:02:43,489
Be influenced by.

76
00:02:43,489 --> 00:02:43,549
Yeah.

77
00:02:43,549 --> 00:02:44,100
It's, it w-

78
00:02:44,109 --> 00:02:45,970
And say nice things later on about Ornette.

79
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,820
For sure. Yeah, no, it just, I think it just hit everybody like a slap in the

80
00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:50,329
face.

81
00:02:50,540 --> 00:02:50,609
Right.

82
00:02:50,740 --> 00:02:54,220
And what I do think about this album is it's like there's no tepid reactions to

83
00:02:54,260 --> 00:02:54,720
this album.

84
00:02:54,740 --> 00:02:54,750
Right.

85
00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:58,460
You either have a very positive reaction or a, a very

86
00:02:58,540 --> 00:02:59,769
negative. Most people, I should say.

87
00:02:59,780 --> 00:02:59,790
Yeah.

88
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,430
I'm sure that's not true for everybody, but it seems to, like, really cause some

89
00:03:03,460 --> 00:03:06,140
severe, uh, opinions, this album.

90
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:07,780
Ornette Coleman is interesting-

91
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:08,160
Yes

92
00:03:08,170 --> 00:03:08,690
... as a player.

93
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:08,730
Yeah.

94
00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:10,390
He doesn't have the traditional path.

95
00:03:10,390 --> 00:03:13,769
Like, almost every other jazz musician we've covered on the show who starts off

96
00:03:13,769 --> 00:03:17,660
playing, like, a lot of sideman work, recording with a lot of people before he

97
00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:21,600
does his own thing, he did play in, like, in blues and R&B bands

98
00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:22,480
around Texas-

99
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:22,690
Yeah

100
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:23,820
... and the South. He actually-

101
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:24,760
Is he from Texas?

102
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:25,480
He's from Fort Worth, Texas.

103
00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:25,820
Right.

104
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:25,900
Yeah.

105
00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:28,940
I always think about him as a West Coast guy, but in a way, Texas is-

106
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:29,120
Yeah

107
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,280
... but, but the Texas saxophone tradition, you hear that on here-

108
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:32,520
That's-

109
00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:33,700
... so much, so that totally makes sense.

110
00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:35,150
Oh, I think i- honestly, on this-

111
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,320
Like, he was, he was always one step away from jumping up and walking the bar-

112
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:38,620
He's a-

113
00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:38,820
... you can hear it

114
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,109
... he is a blues musician-

115
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:40,320
Yeah

116
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,560
... almost first and foremost.

117
00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:41,690
Yeah.

118
00:03:41,690 --> 00:03:44,060
And that, that is played out on this record, I think.

119
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,750
No, but, you know, we mentioned, like, the, the extreme reactions for some of the

120
00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:51,620
musicians, but even back in the day, there's lore that in 1949 on tour in

121
00:03:51,660 --> 00:03:54,049
Louisiana, Ornette was booted off the bandstand.

122
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,520
He was dragged outside, beaten by an angry mob, and his horn was thrown off a

123
00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:00,160
cliff. That seems like a legend more than it does-

124
00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:00,480
Right

125
00:04:00,620 --> 00:04:04,420
... a fact, but there's all of these stories about him being

126
00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:07,600
kicked out of jam sessions, being booted off gigs.

127
00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:10,280
He played a, a little white plastic saxophone.

128
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:10,840
Right.

129
00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:12,370
Um, and he had his-

130
00:04:12,370 --> 00:04:13,150
A yellow one on here

131
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,260
... he had his own thing that was,

132
00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:19,851
you know, for lack of a better word, very divisive.

133
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:20,149
Yeah.

134
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,100
And I think that's the price you pay for being an absolute

135
00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:27,330
original. So here's why his path wasn't very traditional, right?

136
00:04:27,340 --> 00:04:27,420
Mm-hmm.

137
00:04:27,430 --> 00:04:31,380
Like, usually when we do our build-up to these iconic albums, there are all

138
00:04:31,420 --> 00:04:34,680
these albums that these artists have played on- ... on other people's names.

139
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,240
Not true for Ornette Coleman. He didn't do a ton of other stuff before he made

140
00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:41,940
Shape of Jazz to Come in 1959. He made,

141
00:04:42,060 --> 00:04:44,640
uh, he made an album, uh, in

142
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,920
1958 called Something

143
00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:53,100
Else.

144
00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:56,600
Yeah, that's piano, Peter.

145
00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:56,940
Yeah.

146
00:04:56,980 --> 00:05:00,300
Yeah. Uh, he made an album in early 1959

147
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,980
called Tomorrow Is the Question.

148
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:03,800
Yeah.

149
00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:05,760
No piano on this.

150
00:05:05,780 --> 00:05:09,170
It's a great record. It is a great record.

151
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,760
Ooh.

152
00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:12,570
That's really good. Well-

153
00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:15,060
You're right, too, about, you're, you're mentioning about the 20s, even

154
00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:18,820
stylistically, you, and you hear some of that on The Shape of Jazz to Come.

155
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,420
Uh, I think it's on Chronology. Like, the, almost, like, the,

156
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,410
the, the, uh, collective improvisation, or at least the

157
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,380
spirit of it between Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman à la New Orleans.

158
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,900
Al- as in the roots of the music, you just heard it there, a little bit of, like,

159
00:05:34,260 --> 00:05:38,160
implied street beat to the way they're phrasing and stuff, a real connection with

160
00:05:38,180 --> 00:05:40,260
the tradition of the music.

161
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,260
So in the late '50s, Ornette was living in California-

162
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:44,440
Yep

163
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,540
... uh, which is where he met Charlie Haden.

164
00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:47,160
Yep.

165
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,040
Uh, and he was working as an elevator operator and a stockroom cl-

166
00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:54,620
clerk in LA while studying music theory on his lunch breaks.

167
00:05:54,740 --> 00:05:54,930
Uh-

168
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:55,800
He was hustling.

169
00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:57,100
He was hustling.

170
00:05:57,110 --> 00:05:57,110
Definitely.

171
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,600
Uh, then John Lewis of the Modern Jazz Quartet heard him, called him, "The only

172
00:06:00,740 --> 00:06:04,200
real new thing in jazz since Charlie Parker," and got him a deal with Atlantic

173
00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:08,120
Records. The album, The Shape of Jazz to Come, was recorded in one

174
00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:11,320
day, and that very same year, him and his

175
00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:14,520
quartet, uh, Don Cherry and, uh, Charlie

176
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,512
Haden, aided by, um, uh, Billy Higgins—went to

177
00:06:18,532 --> 00:06:21,312
New York and started a residency at the Five Spot.

178
00:06:21,322 --> 00:06:25,092
And, you know, the lore goes that there would be Leonard Bernstein there with

179
00:06:25,132 --> 00:06:28,492
his- his ear to Charlie Haden's F hole in the bass.

180
00:06:28,512 --> 00:06:28,522
Mm.

181
00:06:28,532 --> 00:06:32,452
Like, just there checking it out, and all these- these music luminaries, Gunther

182
00:06:32,492 --> 00:06:34,772
Schuller, and all these people there to check out Ornette Coleman.

183
00:06:34,792 --> 00:06:36,142
The jazz intelligentsia, you might say.

184
00:06:36,142 --> 00:06:39,032
Well, even, just even the- the music intelligentsia.

185
00:06:39,052 --> 00:06:39,202
Yeah.

186
00:06:39,212 --> 00:06:40,842
Right? The avant-garde intelligentsia.

187
00:06:40,842 --> 00:06:40,842
Right.

188
00:06:40,852 --> 00:06:44,682
And some of the jazz guys were not super happy about this,

189
00:06:44,712 --> 00:06:47,192
like, you know, kinda guy who came outta nowhere-

190
00:06:47,232 --> 00:06:47,392
Right

191
00:06:47,552 --> 00:06:51,532
... playing a plastic saxophone, sounding not like anybody else.

192
00:06:51,612 --> 00:06:55,532
And that's, uh, you know, where the story of Max Roach getting

193
00:06:55,732 --> 00:06:58,872
mad enough to follow him up and- and try to beat him up, basically-

194
00:06:58,882 --> 00:06:58,882
Right

195
00:06:58,882 --> 00:06:59,552
... comes from.

196
00:06:59,592 --> 00:06:59,972
Right.

197
00:07:00,072 --> 00:07:02,992
Um, but let's hear that first track from The Shape of Jazz to Come.

198
00:07:03,112 --> 00:07:05,412
One of the best opening track- we say this on every album.

199
00:07:05,432 --> 00:07:05,942
Well, yeah.

200
00:07:06,072 --> 00:07:06,961
One of the best opening tracks ever.

201
00:07:06,961 --> 00:07:09,232
'Cause it's true.

202
00:07:11,272 --> 00:07:12,312
Higgins and Haden.

203
00:07:12,392 --> 00:07:12,732
Ah.

204
00:07:12,772 --> 00:07:15,772
Come on. Like, one of,

205
00:07:17,812 --> 00:07:19,832
one of the great rhythm sections of all time.

206
00:07:19,842 --> 00:07:19,842
100%.

207
00:07:19,872 --> 00:07:22,452
We don't talk about th- those two in particular together,

208
00:07:22,632 --> 00:07:25,392
100%. And what, they're

209
00:07:25,552 --> 00:07:28,432
22, 22, 22 years old,

210
00:07:29,232 --> 00:07:31,892
both of them, or 23.

211
00:07:35,192 --> 00:07:38,432
That's Don Cherry on the cornet, Charlie Haden on the bass, Billy Higgins on the

212
00:07:38,492 --> 00:07:39,832
drums.

213
00:07:39,872 --> 00:07:43,692
Woo. A little tenor sax, a little Texas

214
00:07:43,792 --> 00:07:45,012
tenor vibe

215
00:07:45,022 --> 00:07:49,272
there.

216
00:08:58,612 --> 00:09:14,132
Billy

217
00:09:14,152 --> 00:09:16,292
Higgins' just the engine driving this train.

218
00:09:16,302 --> 00:09:16,362
Ah, yeah.

219
00:09:16,362 --> 00:09:18,012
You know what I mean?

220
00:09:18,052 --> 00:09:20,392
Woo. You hear that?

221
00:09:21,572 --> 00:09:22,552
Ah.

222
00:09:24,232 --> 00:09:24,522
Woo.

223
00:09:24,532 --> 00:09:26,752
You know what I'm saying?

224
00:09:27,432 --> 00:09:29,402
It's Texas R&B roots.

225
00:09:29,412 --> 00:09:32,912
Very.

226
00:09:38,332 --> 00:09:39,952
Man, this Lonely Woman, it-

227
00:09:40,932 --> 00:09:44,102
it's like a jazz standard that no one can play. You know?

228
00:09:44,152 --> 00:09:45,432
I've played it. We've played it before.

229
00:09:45,472 --> 00:09:45,522
Yeah.

230
00:09:45,522 --> 00:09:47,152
But it's- it's tough to pull off, man.

231
00:09:47,172 --> 00:09:50,712
But if you go to a jam session, you're like, "Yeah, Lonely Woman, one, two,

232
00:09:50,792 --> 00:09:52,022
one." That's not gonna work, right?

233
00:09:52,032 --> 00:09:55,352
Not gonna work.

234
00:09:55,392 --> 00:09:56,192
Yeah.

235
00:10:01,192 --> 00:10:03,232
Man, Ornette, like, the personality,

236
00:10:04,852 --> 00:10:07,932
yeah, and, like, the way these forms work. Okay, so, man, so much to talk about.

237
00:10:07,952 --> 00:10:08,512
There's so much.

238
00:10:08,522 --> 00:10:09,932
I- I just wanna throw one thing out there.

239
00:10:09,972 --> 00:10:13,632
The balance of this quartet, even though there's no piano, quibble bit, but,

240
00:10:13,732 --> 00:10:16,932
um, like, you have Haden's and Higgins', especially, like, on this, well, there's a

241
00:10:16,972 --> 00:10:20,162
couple tracks where they're, of course, all playing together

242
00:10:20,292 --> 00:10:24,052
beautifully, but there's very much, like, a two and two kinda situation, right?

243
00:10:24,112 --> 00:10:24,121
Absolutely.

244
00:10:24,192 --> 00:10:28,142
So Ornette, Coleman, and Don Cherry, the way they do-do, do, bo-bo,

245
00:10:28,192 --> 00:10:32,032
we-do, we-ba, da, bo-we.

246
00:10:32,042 --> 00:10:35,072
Like, the freedom with which they're stretching, they're playing rubato-

247
00:10:35,112 --> 00:10:35,372
Yeah

248
00:10:35,382 --> 00:10:37,841
... basically. But they're breathing, they're phrasing.

249
00:10:37,872 --> 00:10:41,452
They go in and out of the groove at little places, but they're floating that.

250
00:10:41,472 --> 00:10:45,132
And then Haden is, like, not worried about, like, "It was this four of ours.

251
00:10:45,152 --> 00:10:48,532
This is the A part." Do, do. And those double stops.

252
00:10:48,552 --> 00:10:50,932
And Higgins is driving, as you said.

253
00:10:50,972 --> 00:10:53,972
Like, there's a real, like, tension and balance-

254
00:10:54,012 --> 00:10:54,312
Yeah

255
00:10:54,332 --> 00:10:58,292
... between this that is, um, that I actually

256
00:10:58,332 --> 00:11:00,212
would say if there was a piano there, it might screw it up.

257
00:11:00,232 --> 00:11:01,502
It 100% wouldn't. You know why?

258
00:11:01,512 --> 00:11:02,412
Because of the way they're playing.

259
00:11:02,452 --> 00:11:05,012
They've dissolved the traditional sense of form-

260
00:11:05,052 --> 00:11:05,172
Yeah

261
00:11:05,232 --> 00:11:08,212
... that every bebop musician that was coming before them, hard bop musician,

262
00:11:08,252 --> 00:11:08,852
post-bop musician-

263
00:11:08,862 --> 00:11:08,862
Right

264
00:11:08,862 --> 00:11:12,612
... was playing. And even, you know, the same year that this comes out, Kind of

265
00:11:12,632 --> 00:11:13,432
Blue comes out.

266
00:11:13,472 --> 00:11:13,522
Yeah.

267
00:11:13,592 --> 00:11:16,082
So What? And everybody talks about, oh, it's like modal jazz.

268
00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:17,772
There's only two chords, and there's not-

269
00:11:17,782 --> 00:11:18,212
Right, yeah.

270
00:11:18,252 --> 00:11:22,072
But compared to this- ... that might as well be, like, a

271
00:11:22,152 --> 00:11:23,092
Gershwin tune.

272
00:11:23,102 --> 00:11:23,102
Smooth jazz.

273
00:11:23,152 --> 00:11:26,132
Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is really, truly

274
00:11:26,872 --> 00:11:30,762
dissolving many of the rules of forms and traditional song forms-

275
00:11:30,762 --> 00:11:30,762
Yeah

276
00:11:30,762 --> 00:11:33,952
... that were- were put upon the music before this, and a- a lot of people weren't

277
00:11:33,972 --> 00:11:35,002
re- ready for it. It's-

278
00:11:35,032 --> 00:11:36,352
Let me just say this to that, though.

279
00:11:36,392 --> 00:11:39,192
Like, that's, I absolutely agree with what you're saying.

280
00:11:39,232 --> 00:11:42,322
Yet, for the listener, I think it- it feels very...

281
00:11:42,322 --> 00:11:44,102
Like, this doesn't feel like free jazz.

282
00:11:44,112 --> 00:11:48,082
I think it does to musicians in a way because we understand, like, wow,

283
00:11:48,112 --> 00:11:50,702
there's no, like, form or chart or whatever.

284
00:11:50,712 --> 00:11:53,732
But because of the way they play and because of that balance between the quartet

285
00:11:53,752 --> 00:11:57,552
with the rhythm section and the horns, and it's so clear w- when they're going to

286
00:11:57,572 --> 00:11:59,782
the solos and coming out and then coming back to the melody.

287
00:11:59,782 --> 00:12:00,192
Mm-hmm.

288
00:12:00,232 --> 00:12:01,162
It's so intentional-

289
00:12:01,212 --> 00:12:01,512
Yeah

290
00:12:01,522 --> 00:12:04,852
... that I think it gives it this feel, like, a very

291
00:12:04,892 --> 00:12:08,652
mysterious and challenging but very edifying listening experience,

292
00:12:08,692 --> 00:12:10,612
especially Lonely Woman. I mean, this is-

293
00:12:10,652 --> 00:12:14,612
In- in 2002, Charlie Haden in an interview, a print interview, said,

294
00:12:14,622 --> 00:12:16,672
"Ornette completely turned jazz upside down.

295
00:12:16,692 --> 00:12:19,692
There were several innovators in jazz, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Charlie

296
00:12:19,732 --> 00:12:21,652
Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie, bebop.

297
00:12:21,662 --> 00:12:21,662
Wow.

298
00:12:21,662 --> 00:12:25,452
"And Ornette's band started what we started.

299
00:12:25,732 --> 00:12:27,312
I saw it as a new vocabulary."

300
00:12:27,792 --> 00:12:31,541
Ornette called it harmolodic. For instance, if you play Jerome Kern's All the

301
00:12:31,552 --> 00:12:35,202
Things You Are, you play the melody, then everyone improvises and takes solos.

302
00:12:35,232 --> 00:12:39,132
What we do in Ornette's band is create, uh, from a

303
00:12:39,192 --> 00:12:42,892
composition of his, so that after you play the melody, you create a new

304
00:12:43,012 --> 00:12:46,092
chord structure that's always different. It's never the same.

305
00:12:46,102 --> 00:12:46,102
Mm.

306
00:12:46,152 --> 00:12:49,792
It's moving. And here's Don Cherry on that term,

307
00:12:49,852 --> 00:12:50,552
harmolodics-

308
00:12:50,572 --> 00:12:50,582
Mm

309
00:12:50,582 --> 00:12:53,132
... which is what they called that sort of formless form.

310
00:12:53,172 --> 00:12:56,602
And when we're speaking of harmolodic, we, we speaking of melody and

311
00:12:56,652 --> 00:13:00,532
harmony. And a good example is when Ornette would write a

312
00:13:00,572 --> 00:13:04,392
melody, and I would, we would learn the melody and play it in unison

313
00:13:04,432 --> 00:13:08,252
together. Then he would write harmony to the

314
00:13:08,312 --> 00:13:12,292
melody. And as I would be playing the melody and

315
00:13:12,332 --> 00:13:16,312
the harmony that he would write, the harmony itself would become

316
00:13:16,322 --> 00:13:19,832
the melody, and the melody that I would be playing would become

317
00:13:19,912 --> 00:13:20,392
harmony-

318
00:13:20,452 --> 00:13:21,252
Flipping the, yeah

319
00:13:21,262 --> 00:13:24,242
... to the actual harmony melody. You can hear that in, in-

320
00:13:24,272 --> 00:13:24,692
Isn't that crazy?

321
00:13:24,772 --> 00:13:25,432
Oh, that's so great.

322
00:13:25,472 --> 00:13:27,902
Yeah. Let's check out the second track, Peter. This is Eventually.

323
00:13:27,912 --> 00:13:27,952
Mm.

324
00:13:27,972 --> 00:13:30,212
This is so good.

325
00:13:31,552 --> 00:13:33,372
Bebop.

326
00:13:37,052 --> 00:13:38,042
Woo. So swinging.

327
00:13:38,092 --> 00:13:40,712
Yeah.

328
00:13:43,972 --> 00:13:45,152
Woo, hey, pushing.

329
00:13:45,192 --> 00:13:45,732
So-

330
00:13:45,772 --> 00:13:47,112
They're just-

331
00:13:47,172 --> 00:13:48,132
Off of the melody.

332
00:13:48,152 --> 00:13:48,162
Yeah.

333
00:13:48,192 --> 00:13:49,472
Everything is off of the melody.

334
00:13:49,482 --> 00:13:49,482
Yeah.

335
00:13:49,492 --> 00:13:52,712
It's the most melody-focused music that I think it has been up to this

336
00:13:52,752 --> 00:13:55,612
point.

337
00:14:05,392 --> 00:14:07,752
Hey.

338
00:14:11,072 --> 00:14:13,062
Ooh.

339
00:14:13,062 --> 00:14:22,642
Woo.

340
00:14:24,212 --> 00:14:24,552
Ah.

341
00:14:25,532 --> 00:14:25,692
So

342
00:14:27,552 --> 00:14:31,022
there's a line between this way of improv- especially at this

343
00:14:31,072 --> 00:14:33,802
tempo, a direct line I'm, I'm gonna throw out

344
00:14:33,852 --> 00:14:37,832
there. And, and I, I, I wasn't even planning on ta- I, I've never really put this

345
00:14:37,851 --> 00:14:39,072
together theoretically.

346
00:14:39,092 --> 00:14:39,532
Preach.

347
00:14:39,552 --> 00:14:39,562
But-

348
00:14:39,562 --> 00:14:39,562
Talk about it

349
00:14:39,562 --> 00:14:42,972
... but with the, with the burnout style of the '80s-

350
00:14:42,992 --> 00:14:43,162
Oh, yeah

351
00:14:43,162 --> 00:14:47,081
... which kind of was a little bit of a flash and then it went away, um,

352
00:14:47,132 --> 00:14:50,002
although it would show its... So what we're talking about really, I think, Wynton

353
00:14:50,052 --> 00:14:51,992
Marsalis, Branford Marsalis, Kenny Kirkland-

354
00:14:52,052 --> 00:14:52,372
Yeah

355
00:14:52,382 --> 00:14:53,152
... Jeff Watts.

356
00:14:53,252 --> 00:14:53,672
Yeah.

357
00:14:53,772 --> 00:14:55,372
Um, uh, Kenny Garrett-

358
00:14:55,412 --> 00:14:55,512
Yeah

359
00:14:55,552 --> 00:14:57,272
... to a certain degree. Um-

360
00:14:57,282 --> 00:14:57,282
Yeah

361
00:14:57,282 --> 00:15:01,232
... but, like, that crew and, and a bunch of other folks, I think

362
00:15:01,252 --> 00:15:04,192
there's a direct connection between this way of playing, especially on a couple of

363
00:15:04,232 --> 00:15:06,132
the tunes off here. Now, I'm thinking back.

364
00:15:06,192 --> 00:15:09,992
I know Wynton was, is very up on this record and was at-

365
00:15:10,012 --> 00:15:10,322
Are you serious?

366
00:15:10,322 --> 00:15:11,302
... in the '80s. I remember him-

367
00:15:11,312 --> 00:15:11,892
Never would've guessed that.

368
00:15:11,952 --> 00:15:14,932
I know. A lot of people wouldn't. But in fact, I remember, he was the one who told

369
00:15:14,952 --> 00:15:17,152
me, like, "You gotta check out The Shape of Jazz." I was like, "Wow." I was

370
00:15:17,192 --> 00:15:18,232
surprised he said that.

371
00:15:18,252 --> 00:15:18,942
That was Wynton who recommended?

372
00:15:18,972 --> 00:15:19,141
That was Wynton.

373
00:15:19,152 --> 00:15:19,162
Oh, yeah.

374
00:15:19,192 --> 00:15:21,312
Absolutely. So, like, he was definitely up on this.

375
00:15:21,332 --> 00:15:22,182
That's blowing my mind right now.

376
00:15:22,272 --> 00:15:26,012
And, but it makes sense. Like, you hear that way, and then even the way, like,

377
00:15:26,032 --> 00:15:26,832
Haden is playing, I mean

378
00:15:27,712 --> 00:15:31,622
like, way on top of the beat A lot like Bob Hurst, later

379
00:15:31,652 --> 00:15:35,482
on Reginald Veal, Charnett Moffett. A, a lot of influences there.

380
00:15:35,492 --> 00:15:39,361
But just this approach where it's like there's no chords, right?

381
00:15:39,412 --> 00:15:41,562
Like, it's coming off the melody. It's coming off whatever you're creating.

382
00:15:41,632 --> 00:15:45,472
Um, with the burnout stuff they were doing, there was, sometimes there was a form,

383
00:15:45,492 --> 00:15:47,092
but sometimes, sometimes there wasn't, too.

384
00:15:47,152 --> 00:15:47,382
Yeah.

385
00:15:47,412 --> 00:15:47,802
So.

386
00:15:47,802 --> 00:15:47,882
Yeah.

387
00:15:47,912 --> 00:15:50,532
I got a little chance to play some of that with them over different times.

388
00:15:50,552 --> 00:15:52,112
It's a very exciting way of playing.

389
00:15:52,132 --> 00:15:55,712
But I think it's, I think it's more connected specifically with

390
00:15:55,812 --> 00:15:59,732
this record in some ways, or as connected as it is

391
00:15:59,792 --> 00:16:02,912
with, like, Herbie, Ron, Tony, which is always, like, Plugged Nickel during that-

392
00:16:02,952 --> 00:16:03,172
Yep

393
00:16:03,192 --> 00:16:05,792
... which was definitely a little bit influenced from this, too, I think.

394
00:16:05,832 --> 00:16:06,562
This is what I'm saying.

395
00:16:06,572 --> 00:16:06,792
Wayne Shorter.

396
00:16:06,812 --> 00:16:09,612
No, you know, you know, Miles Davis comes around.

397
00:16:09,632 --> 00:16:11,652
But, and you can definitely hear some of this.

398
00:16:11,712 --> 00:16:11,921
Yeah.

399
00:16:12,612 --> 00:16:15,692
This, I, I just think, like, the en- entire idea of this, we take it for granted

400
00:16:15,732 --> 00:16:19,672
now because it's been around our whole lives, and even if we, if I, you know, I

401
00:16:19,732 --> 00:16:23,532
didn't hear it till I was 22, this album, but I heard people who were influenced

402
00:16:23,572 --> 00:16:25,732
by this album. You heard people who were influenced by this album.

403
00:16:25,742 --> 00:16:25,742
Yes.

404
00:16:25,772 --> 00:16:27,622
So it's been amongst our musical culture-

405
00:16:27,652 --> 00:16:27,772
Yeah

406
00:16:27,782 --> 00:16:31,712
... our entire existence. And for the people in 1959, this would've been

407
00:16:31,772 --> 00:16:33,272
out of outer space.

408
00:16:33,372 --> 00:16:33,542
Right.

409
00:16:33,552 --> 00:16:37,272
It would've just been coming down from a place of complete, you know, never

410
00:16:37,312 --> 00:16:41,152
heard anything to, like, I mean, in, in, in popular

411
00:16:41,232 --> 00:16:41,872
jazz. I'm sure there were-

412
00:16:41,912 --> 00:16:41,921
Yeah

413
00:16:41,921 --> 00:16:45,181
... people doing this. And, and, and don't at me in the comments about like- ...

414
00:16:45,181 --> 00:16:46,501
well, actually, and this, and the, the-

415
00:16:46,532 --> 00:16:48,142
Oh, no. There've been weirder stuff out this year and before.

416
00:16:48,142 --> 00:16:48,782
Oh, no, no, no, for sure.

417
00:16:48,832 --> 00:16:49,001
Yeah, yeah.

418
00:16:49,012 --> 00:16:51,392
But, but to take, like, the scene by storm-

419
00:16:51,432 --> 00:16:51,532
Right

420
00:16:51,542 --> 00:16:52,272
... in a way, right?

421
00:16:52,312 --> 00:16:52,522
Right.

422
00:16:52,522 --> 00:16:56,292
Where he's gaining, like, like, national popularity in America on it.

423
00:16:56,332 --> 00:16:59,372
And look, a lot of this, like, the way I had it broken down, it's almost like

424
00:16:59,412 --> 00:17:02,912
there's two, like, straight up hard bop, or you could call it burnout, but that

425
00:17:02,932 --> 00:17:06,792
wasn't coined until later. Two bebop, like, hard bop

426
00:17:06,873 --> 00:17:10,552
tunes, or free bop you might wanna call it, where they're swinging out hard.

427
00:17:10,652 --> 00:17:11,052
Absolutely.

428
00:17:11,152 --> 00:17:15,072
Um, and then there's two, like, kind of beautiful, you know, clad, you know, Peace

429
00:17:15,093 --> 00:17:17,853
and Lonely Woman. I mean, it's all beautiful. Come on.

430
00:17:17,912 --> 00:17:20,032
But then there's sort of hybrids, the other two tunes.

431
00:17:20,052 --> 00:17:21,113
But we're gonna get into that.

432
00:17:21,133 --> 00:17:21,853
Let's check out Peace.

433
00:17:21,892 --> 00:17:21,902
Yeah.

434
00:17:21,912 --> 00:17:24,052
This might be the most beautiful song on the

435
00:17:24,113 --> 00:17:28,312
album.

436
00:17:30,592 --> 00:17:34,552
And in a way, it's the most traditional-

437
00:17:35,552 --> 00:17:35,672
Yeah

438
00:17:35,772 --> 00:17:38,112
... song. You know, it's a song song.

439
00:17:39,432 --> 00:17:40,112
Yeah, but again.

440
00:17:40,812 --> 00:17:42,092
Yeah, relatively.

441
00:17:42,212 --> 00:17:42,442
Yeah.

442
00:17:42,442 --> 00:17:42,992
Yeah.

443
00:17:45,052 --> 00:17:48,032
But then it has that.

444
00:17:49,992 --> 00:17:53,372
The implied harmony here without having the piano, but you can fill in the, oh,

445
00:17:53,392 --> 00:17:56,412
it's so great.

446
00:17:58,852 --> 00:18:00,362
Appreciate it.

447
00:18:00,362 --> 00:18:03,002
It doesn't hurt that Charlie Haden's playing bass on this either. Oh my God.

448
00:18:03,052 --> 00:18:04,632
You know? I think

449
00:18:06,952 --> 00:18:09,732
it's interesting 'cause, like, Haden and Higgins are both,

450
00:18:10,792 --> 00:18:14,612
like, master technicians.

451
00:18:15,132 --> 00:18:18,012
Like, that brushwork, you know?

452
00:18:18,052 --> 00:18:20,352
Haden.

453
00:18:24,312 --> 00:18:27,112
Oh, and Ornette comes in, man.

454
00:18:37,442 --> 00:19:01,022
Right

455
00:19:01,042 --> 00:19:02,522
when he comes here.

456
00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:29,982
Mm.

457
00:19:44,062 --> 00:19:47,562
Man, it's so good.

458
00:19:48,802 --> 00:19:48,972
Ooh,

459
00:19:49,882 --> 00:19:51,502
yeah.

460
00:19:51,762 --> 00:19:55,682
Man.

461
00:19:56,782 --> 00:19:58,962
Are there changes on this?

462
00:19:59,942 --> 00:20:00,262
Are there?

463
00:20:00,622 --> 00:20:00,912
Yeah.

464
00:20:00,982 --> 00:20:01,442
I don't know.

465
00:20:01,482 --> 00:20:05,462
I mean, they're definitely playing harm- harmolodics, but I mean, like, they're

466
00:20:05,542 --> 00:20:08,292
listening ... There's a tonal center, but when they...

467
00:20:08,302 --> 00:20:10,242
Like, when Haden moves away-

468
00:20:10,282 --> 00:20:10,432
I don't-

469
00:20:10,432 --> 00:20:11,622
... like, there's a give and take there.

470
00:20:11,682 --> 00:20:14,232
Yeah, that's the thing, man. I don't think they're thinking about these as

471
00:20:14,242 --> 00:20:15,612
traditional chord changes.

472
00:20:15,612 --> 00:20:15,612
Right.

473
00:20:15,642 --> 00:20:19,602
I think it's all around. There's a fo- there's a form. Obviously, there's a head.

474
00:20:19,642 --> 00:20:19,852
Yeah.

475
00:20:19,862 --> 00:20:22,092
There's a melody. And everything...

476
00:20:22,122 --> 00:20:26,082
And Charlie Haden is playing a bass movement that's repeatable on the

477
00:20:26,122 --> 00:20:28,412
melody, but I don't know if those...

478
00:20:28,422 --> 00:20:32,122
if you can, if you can, um, extract an entire chord

479
00:20:32,142 --> 00:20:35,302
progression from what they're doing. I guess- suppose you could. Should we try it?

480
00:20:35,942 --> 00:20:37,002
Nerd nook.

481
00:20:37,042 --> 00:20:37,912
No, but it's, it-

482
00:20:37,912 --> 00:20:39,102
It's really the begin- It's... All right.

483
00:20:39,122 --> 00:20:40,742
Notice there's no keyboard here today, by the way.

484
00:20:40,822 --> 00:20:41,952
There's, there's no, no chords to bookends.

485
00:20:41,952 --> 00:20:43,542
'Cause the piano was not invited to the session.

486
00:20:43,562 --> 00:20:45,912
It was not invited to this party and we wanna respect that.

487
00:20:45,921 --> 00:20:45,931
Yeah.

488
00:20:45,931 --> 00:20:48,982
But no, I don't know, man. You know, it's funny too, like,

489
00:20:50,302 --> 00:20:53,922
th- you, you mentioned, like, no one pulls out Lonely Woman at the jam session.

490
00:20:53,962 --> 00:20:57,922
I... first of all, I bet people do. Depending on how nerdy your jam session is, I

491
00:20:57,962 --> 00:21:00,022
bet someone does. But this, this-

492
00:21:00,042 --> 00:21:03,482
Which is weird, because actually, it sh- that's the kind of tune that should be.

493
00:21:03,502 --> 00:21:03,512
Oh.

494
00:21:03,522 --> 00:21:04,892
Think about, like, the complicated tunes.

495
00:21:04,902 --> 00:21:05,572
To learn how to improvise?

496
00:21:05,622 --> 00:21:07,232
Yeah, where it's like, "Wait, you gotta do the head, you gotta do..."

497
00:21:07,232 --> 00:21:07,232
Buddy.

498
00:21:07,242 --> 00:21:10,242
Like, no, just everybody listen. All you need to do is learn this melody-

499
00:21:10,282 --> 00:21:10,402
Man

500
00:21:10,422 --> 00:21:12,442
... and have great ears in a musical sense.

501
00:21:12,502 --> 00:21:16,042
So my son, Ivan, is, is 13. He's learning how to play the bass right now.

502
00:21:16,082 --> 00:21:16,422
Yeah.

503
00:21:16,442 --> 00:21:20,322
And he's learning how to improvise, and we're working on, like, you know, the forms

504
00:21:20,362 --> 00:21:22,882
like the blues and Satin Doll and things like that.

505
00:21:22,892 --> 00:21:26,522
And he realized trying to teach a 13-year-old how to improvise, man, this is hard

506
00:21:26,562 --> 00:21:27,102
on the blues.

507
00:21:27,112 --> 00:21:27,122
Right.

508
00:21:27,142 --> 00:21:29,402
It's actually harder than you might think-

509
00:21:29,462 --> 00:21:29,842
Yes

510
00:21:29,852 --> 00:21:33,762
... to learn how to improvise. I w- I was like, I bet he could, like, play along to

511
00:21:33,822 --> 00:21:34,482
Lonely Woman-

512
00:21:34,502 --> 00:21:34,782
Yeah

513
00:21:34,792 --> 00:21:38,322
... and just really get into it in a way that would be, like, just imitate what

514
00:21:38,342 --> 00:21:41,902
they're doing. Like, all they're doing is, is, is listening to the

515
00:21:41,942 --> 00:21:44,262
melody and, and f- I mean, all they're doing.

516
00:21:44,302 --> 00:21:44,832
You know, it's, it's-

517
00:21:44,842 --> 00:21:45,542
That's just.

518
00:21:45,562 --> 00:21:47,142
It's world-class what they're doing.

519
00:21:47,152 --> 00:21:47,152
Yeah.

520
00:21:47,182 --> 00:21:50,112
But, like, you could get in there in the spirit of this without having to know a

521
00:21:50,182 --> 00:21:53,082
bunch of changes. They all, of course, know how to play changes-

522
00:21:53,102 --> 00:21:53,332
Right

523
00:21:53,332 --> 00:21:56,782
... and everything like that, but, but this is more, like, I think accessible-

524
00:21:56,842 --> 00:21:57,082
Yes

525
00:21:57,222 --> 00:21:59,762
... for not just, like, players, but listeners too.

526
00:21:59,802 --> 00:22:03,482
Well, it's like the thing, like, they had to know and understand and

527
00:22:03,642 --> 00:22:07,582
learn advanced harmony in order to be able to get to the point where they could,

528
00:22:07,602 --> 00:22:11,042
like, develop their ears to be able to come and play in this

529
00:22:11,102 --> 00:22:14,942
way, but then they had to a, to a certain degree be able to, like, push all that

530
00:22:14,982 --> 00:22:15,602
out of their minds.

531
00:22:15,612 --> 00:22:15,612
Yeah.

532
00:22:15,642 --> 00:22:19,122
So it's like, you need to have the openness, the confidence, the ear

533
00:22:19,182 --> 00:22:21,211
training, but then you can't get stuck in that.

534
00:22:21,262 --> 00:22:24,282
Like, if he hears, you know, Haden go down to that low E, he can't be like, "Oh, I

535
00:22:24,332 --> 00:22:27,902
could put this ch-" Like, he has to just be able to react, but you also can't just

536
00:22:27,942 --> 00:22:30,082
be ignorant and be like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing.

537
00:22:30,102 --> 00:22:33,452
I'm just playing random stuff" because there's definitely a period, um...

538
00:22:33,542 --> 00:22:35,982
I know we're not supposed to say this. Is this, is this safe space?

539
00:22:36,042 --> 00:22:36,412
Yeah.

540
00:22:36,442 --> 00:22:40,362
Okay. Um, there, there was a period of free jazz,

541
00:22:40,402 --> 00:22:44,232
so-called free jazz, where the, the action and the

542
00:22:44,282 --> 00:22:46,252
intent was just like, "Play whatever you want."

543
00:22:46,282 --> 00:22:46,482
Yeah.

544
00:22:46,491 --> 00:22:47,532
"Don't listen to each other."

545
00:22:47,562 --> 00:22:47,802
Yeah.

546
00:22:47,822 --> 00:22:50,702
Now, this, I'm not saying... I'm not trying to disparage any movement or anything.

547
00:22:50,742 --> 00:22:52,442
It's not about that. It's just like anything.

548
00:22:52,462 --> 00:22:55,642
Just like there's not good bebop players, there's not good blues players, there's

549
00:22:55,662 --> 00:22:58,722
not good free jazz players. But for some reason, 'cause it's free, you could get

550
00:22:58,762 --> 00:23:02,042
away with that more maybe in that ar- in that arena,

551
00:23:02,122 --> 00:23:05,922
right? But when you're bringing all the skills and you're a- able to sublem-

552
00:23:06,162 --> 00:23:10,102
sublimate those to a greater purpose of playing some, some

553
00:23:10,182 --> 00:23:13,622
shape of jazz to come type of stuff, um, and like, you hear

554
00:23:13,802 --> 00:23:17,742
different... All of them in a way, like, trying to kind of

555
00:23:17,802 --> 00:23:20,682
connect and pull things into something they know.

556
00:23:20,722 --> 00:23:24,092
I think more with Haden and Higgins in a way because of the rhythm section.

557
00:23:24,142 --> 00:23:27,692
Like, there's not this aversion to like, "No, we're not gonna do a 4/4 swing."

558
00:23:27,722 --> 00:23:29,352
Like, da, da, dun, dun. You know, boom, boom.

559
00:23:29,362 --> 00:23:33,312
But then it's like, doom, doom, doom, doom, dun, doh. Break it up. Dun, dun, ka.

560
00:23:33,322 --> 00:23:34,662
But, like, that groove is always there.

561
00:23:34,682 --> 00:23:37,062
So they're not afraid to be in the tradition.

562
00:23:37,102 --> 00:23:37,302
Yeah.

563
00:23:37,342 --> 00:23:40,282
And even to your point from earlier, even to jump back a couple of decades-

564
00:23:40,362 --> 00:23:40,682
Yeah

565
00:23:40,692 --> 00:23:41,832
... as well, and to make those connections.

566
00:23:41,842 --> 00:23:41,922
Oh.

567
00:23:41,962 --> 00:23:44,522
So to me, that's all about the freedom, right?

568
00:23:44,562 --> 00:23:46,842
The freedom that they're bringing to this.

569
00:23:46,882 --> 00:23:49,122
That's free jazz.

570
00:23:50,422 --> 00:23:50,862
Hey, Peter.

571
00:23:50,882 --> 00:23:51,462
Hey.

572
00:23:51,502 --> 00:23:53,462
Since we're talking about how to get to freedom-

573
00:23:53,522 --> 00:23:53,542
Yes

574
00:23:53,552 --> 00:23:54,572
... by using the structure.

575
00:23:54,582 --> 00:23:54,612
Yeah.

576
00:23:54,612 --> 00:23:55,362
You like that transition-

577
00:23:55,382 --> 00:23:55,682
That was good

578
00:23:55,782 --> 00:23:56,152
... by the way?

579
00:23:56,152 --> 00:23:56,421
That was good.

580
00:23:57,042 --> 00:24:00,092
Um, woo! You know, this brings us right back to openstudiojazz.com.

581
00:24:00,102 --> 00:24:00,242
Yeah.

582
00:24:00,302 --> 00:24:03,892
If you're interested in learning how to get those fundamental

583
00:24:04,002 --> 00:24:05,682
skills to get you to be able to-

584
00:24:05,742 --> 00:24:07,922
Yeah, to be able to forget and play shape of jazz to come.

585
00:24:07,982 --> 00:24:11,302
Exactly right. You can go to openstudiojazz.com/yhi-

586
00:24:11,402 --> 00:24:11,482
Yes

587
00:24:11,522 --> 00:24:14,922
... and start a 14-day free trial. We deal with this stuff in a bunch of different

588
00:24:14,962 --> 00:24:15,322
courses-

589
00:24:15,482 --> 00:24:15,502
Yeah

590
00:24:15,512 --> 00:24:17,282
... especially, like, nuts and bolts music stuff.

591
00:24:17,322 --> 00:24:17,742
Yeah.

592
00:24:17,752 --> 00:24:21,482
Like, the basics that get you into how to be

593
00:24:21,582 --> 00:24:24,742
free. We start talking about, like, chords,

594
00:24:24,842 --> 00:24:25,602
scales-

595
00:24:25,662 --> 00:24:25,862
Yeah

596
00:24:25,882 --> 00:24:27,092
... learning tunes, how to-

597
00:24:27,092 --> 00:24:28,322
Ideas, narratives-

598
00:24:28,332 --> 00:24:28,332
Ideas

599
00:24:28,332 --> 00:24:28,892
... improvisation

600
00:24:28,922 --> 00:24:29,652
... improvisation-

601
00:24:29,682 --> 00:24:29,732
Yeah

602
00:24:29,782 --> 00:24:31,432
... rhythm, all that stuff is available.

603
00:24:31,432 --> 00:24:33,842
Beginner, intermediate, and advanced. And what's above advanced?

604
00:24:34,522 --> 00:24:35,172
Shape of jazz to come.

605
00:24:35,202 --> 00:24:38,692
Shape of jazz to come. Uh, start your f- free, start your

606
00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:40,402
14-day free trial-

607
00:24:40,411 --> 00:24:40,411
Yeah

608
00:24:40,411 --> 00:24:43,082
... at openstudiojazz.com/yhi. That's

609
00:24:43,142 --> 00:24:47,042
openstudiojazz.com/yhi for

610
00:24:47,672 --> 00:24:48,792
Oh

611
00:24:49,932 --> 00:24:50,912
Your jazz lesson needs-

612
00:24:51,192 --> 00:24:52,892
Back to the show.

613
00:24:53,492 --> 00:24:54,492
Okay. Okay.

614
00:24:54,532 --> 00:24:56,762
Let's get away from that rude commercial interruption.

615
00:24:56,772 --> 00:24:56,832
Yeah.

616
00:24:56,852 --> 00:24:57,782
Back to us, buddy .

617
00:24:57,812 --> 00:24:59,752
You know who put this in a really cool way?

618
00:24:59,812 --> 00:25:00,012
Yeah.

619
00:25:00,072 --> 00:25:02,592
So Charles Mingus, around the time that this album came out-

620
00:25:02,612 --> 00:25:02,622
Mm

621
00:25:02,622 --> 00:25:05,112
... he did one of those Down Beat blindfold tests.

622
00:25:05,172 --> 00:25:06,662
Yeah. Oh, wow, I wanna know about this.

623
00:25:06,692 --> 00:25:07,782
And you can... I'm gonna read this.

624
00:25:07,782 --> 00:25:08,152
I'm here for it.

625
00:25:08,172 --> 00:25:09,812
I'm gonna read this for you, 'cause you hear Mingus.

626
00:25:09,852 --> 00:25:13,032
Mingus, who's one of the great artists of his time-

627
00:25:13,072 --> 00:25:13,082
Yeah

628
00:25:13,082 --> 00:25:15,532
... especially, like, pushing boundaries, like all the things we're talking about

629
00:25:15,972 --> 00:25:15,982
today.

630
00:25:15,982 --> 00:25:17,792
If only he'd made a record in 1959.

631
00:25:17,832 --> 00:25:21,752
He did. And he, but he c- really cared about this kind of

632
00:25:21,772 --> 00:25:23,032
stuff, about the new, right?

633
00:25:23,072 --> 00:25:23,452
Yeah.

634
00:25:23,492 --> 00:25:27,332
And he's taking this blindfold test, and at the end of the blindfold test he says,

635
00:25:27,342 --> 00:25:29,592
"You didn't play anything by Ornette Coleman.

636
00:25:29,632 --> 00:25:30,842
I'll comment on him anyway."

637
00:25:32,432 --> 00:25:34,082
We need more people like that in jazz.

638
00:25:35,032 --> 00:25:38,662
Now, I don't care if he doesn't like me, but anyway, one night- ...

639
00:25:38,672 --> 00:25:42,412
Symphony Sid was playing a whole lot of stuff, and then he put on an Ornette

640
00:25:42,452 --> 00:25:43,962
Coleman record. So he wrote-

641
00:25:43,962 --> 00:25:47,492
Symphony Sid famously, uh, DJ at, what was the radio station?

642
00:25:47,512 --> 00:25:48,842
Or maybe, I think it was Nationwide.

643
00:25:48,872 --> 00:25:49,502
It was Nationwide, I think.

644
00:25:49,512 --> 00:25:49,772
Yeah, yeah.

645
00:25:49,812 --> 00:25:53,262
Yeah. Now, he is really an old-fashioned alto player.

646
00:25:53,312 --> 00:25:57,092
He's not as modern as Bird. He plays in C and F and G and B-flat

647
00:25:57,312 --> 00:26:01,292
only. He does not play in all the keys. So he doesn't, he's not good to go.

648
00:26:01,312 --> 00:26:03,012
You don't take him to alto keys.

649
00:26:03,072 --> 00:26:06,612
Basically, you can hit a pedal point C all the time and it'll have some

650
00:26:06,632 --> 00:26:09,902
relationship to what he's playing, right?

651
00:26:09,992 --> 00:26:13,802
Now, aside from the fact that I doubt he can even play a C scale in whole

652
00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:17,332
notes, tied whole notes- ... a couple of bars a piece in

653
00:26:17,372 --> 00:26:21,332
tune, the fact remains that his notes and lines are

654
00:26:21,472 --> 00:26:22,752
so fresh.

655
00:26:22,832 --> 00:26:23,362
Oh, man.

656
00:26:23,392 --> 00:26:26,592
So when Symphony said, Sid played his record, it made everything else he was

657
00:26:26,612 --> 00:26:29,732
playing, even my own record that he played, sound terrible.

658
00:26:29,772 --> 00:26:30,132
Wow.

659
00:26:30,212 --> 00:26:33,372
I'm not saying everybody's gonna have to play like Coleman, but they're going to

660
00:26:33,412 --> 00:26:37,132
have to stop copying Bird. Nobody can play Bird right yet

661
00:26:37,272 --> 00:26:38,012
but him.

662
00:26:38,032 --> 00:26:38,482
Hmm.

663
00:26:38,532 --> 00:26:42,392
Now, what would Fats Navarro and JJ have played like if they never heard of Bird or

664
00:26:42,452 --> 00:26:45,652
even Dizzy? Would he still play like Roy Eldridge?

665
00:26:45,662 --> 00:26:48,672
Anyway, when they put Coleman's record on, the only record they could have put on

666
00:26:48,732 --> 00:26:52,532
behind it would've been Bird. It doesn't matter about the key he's playing

667
00:26:52,592 --> 00:26:55,672
in. He's got a percussional sound, like a cat on a whole lot of

668
00:26:55,692 --> 00:26:59,432
bongos. He's brought a thing in. It's not new.

669
00:26:59,512 --> 00:27:02,632
I won't say who started it. But whoever started it, people overlooked it.

670
00:27:02,672 --> 00:27:05,912
It's not having anything to do with what's around you and being right in your own

671
00:27:06,012 --> 00:27:08,972
world. You can't put your finger on what he's doing.

672
00:27:09,012 --> 00:27:12,901
It's like organized disorganization or playing wrong right, and

673
00:27:12,932 --> 00:27:16,252
it gets you, and it gets to you emotionally, like a drummer.

674
00:27:16,292 --> 00:27:18,392
That's what Coleman means to me. Isn't that-

675
00:27:18,412 --> 00:27:18,592
Damn

676
00:27:18,612 --> 00:27:20,732
... unbelievable?

677
00:27:20,752 --> 00:27:20,762
That is so...

678
00:27:20,792 --> 00:27:23,492
I've never heard so much glaze and shade in the same-

679
00:27:23,552 --> 00:27:23,762
I know

680
00:27:23,852 --> 00:27:24,512
... review ever.

681
00:27:24,532 --> 00:27:28,182
But man, the h- my, tip of the hat to Charlie Mingus, Charles

682
00:27:28,252 --> 00:27:31,102
Mingus, for, like, putting it all out there-

683
00:27:31,132 --> 00:27:31,382
Oh, my God

684
00:27:31,382 --> 00:27:34,612
... and then being open to, like, but damn, he play, he's, like, he's not very

685
00:27:34,652 --> 00:27:36,972
good, but his music is very good.

686
00:27:36,982 --> 00:27:38,912
Doesn't it make you wanna hang with Charles Mingus?

687
00:27:38,932 --> 00:27:38,942
Yeah.

688
00:27:38,952 --> 00:27:40,832
Don't you wish Charles Mingus had a podcast?

689
00:27:40,852 --> 00:27:41,352
That would be-

690
00:27:41,392 --> 00:27:41,401
Oh

691
00:27:41,401 --> 00:27:42,922
... unbelievable.

692
00:27:42,922 --> 00:27:44,092
That's right.

693
00:27:44,152 --> 00:27:44,752
Man.

694
00:27:44,812 --> 00:27:45,072
Yeah.

695
00:27:45,112 --> 00:27:46,372
Should we do more Mingus? That'd be fun.

696
00:27:46,472 --> 00:27:47,132
Yeah, for sure.

697
00:27:47,152 --> 00:27:50,871
Okay. Uh, next up is the penultimate song, Focus on Sanity.

698
00:27:53,092 --> 00:27:53,832
Penultimate to the

699
00:27:53,892 --> 00:28:02,192
penultimate.

700
00:28:02,272 --> 00:28:02,972
Ooh.

701
00:28:04,192 --> 00:28:05,352
Is this in C?

702
00:28:06,032 --> 00:28:09,392
No, but you could put a C pedal to it.

703
00:28:19,672 --> 00:28:32,072
I

704
00:28:33,972 --> 00:28:37,832
think he, Ornette wanted the record to be called Fo- Focus on Sanity.

705
00:28:37,872 --> 00:28:38,841
That's right. He wanted this-

706
00:28:38,912 --> 00:28:39,232
Atlantic said no

707
00:28:39,612 --> 00:28:42,252
... this title, Focus on Sanity, to be the name of this record.

708
00:28:42,262 --> 00:28:43,652
And Atlantic said The Shape of Jazz to Come.

709
00:28:43,672 --> 00:28:45,352
That's a great name.

710
00:28:45,372 --> 00:28:46,172
Focus on Sanity?

711
00:28:46,212 --> 00:28:46,442
Yeah.

712
00:28:46,512 --> 00:28:46,852
I know.

713
00:28:46,912 --> 00:28:49,792
Can't say that anymore.

714
00:28:52,912 --> 00:28:54,032
No.

715
00:28:54,892 --> 00:28:58,412
Ooh. Some say that's a swing, swingin' rhythm section right there.

716
00:28:58,472 --> 00:28:59,232
Oh, my God.

717
00:28:59,272 --> 00:28:59,282
Swing.

718
00:28:59,292 --> 00:29:01,212
Also, by the way-

719
00:29:01,252 --> 00:29:02,992
Ornette gave him space, too. Go ahead.

720
00:29:03,052 --> 00:29:06,371
Listening to this album is like listening to a set.

721
00:29:06,412 --> 00:29:06,751
Yeah.

722
00:29:06,772 --> 00:29:09,152
This is the point in the set.

723
00:29:09,191 --> 00:29:09,592
Yeah.

724
00:29:09,632 --> 00:29:11,592
Where would they, they would put this long extended-

725
00:29:11,652 --> 00:29:11,852
Right

726
00:29:11,992 --> 00:29:14,592
... piece so it works really well.

727
00:29:14,652 --> 00:29:15,072
Whoa.

728
00:29:15,092 --> 00:29:16,332
Ah, Charlie Haden.

729
00:29:16,372 --> 00:29:19,272
Tw- was he, was he actually 22 on this? You know what?

730
00:29:19,312 --> 00:29:22,092
So many great players are t- I, I'm not gonna say 22 is young anymore.

731
00:29:22,112 --> 00:29:25,732
It just amazes me for some reason. I was doing great stuff at 22, so I shouldn't be

732
00:29:25,752 --> 00:29:26,832
amazed. Mm.

733
00:29:29,432 --> 00:29:31,982
I was listening to this album at 22.

734
00:29:32,032 --> 00:29:32,402
Man.

735
00:29:32,872 --> 00:29:35,592
Maybe that's why it hit me so hard. I was the age of these guys when they made it.

736
00:29:35,672 --> 00:29:35,812
Oh.

737
00:29:35,852 --> 00:29:36,492
You know what I mean?

738
00:29:36,612 --> 00:29:39,332
So Charlie Haden...

739
00:29:40,892 --> 00:29:44,652
Charlie Haden was, um, I actually got a chance to play with him a couple

740
00:29:44,692 --> 00:29:46,092
times, and, and-

741
00:29:46,132 --> 00:29:46,182
Lucky duck

742
00:29:46,182 --> 00:29:48,312
... mostly... Yeah, totally lucky duck.

743
00:29:48,352 --> 00:29:52,332
Early '90s, we did a tour in Europe, uh, for a, a while.

744
00:29:52,372 --> 00:29:55,572
I wanna say a couple weeks. It might've been, like, 10 days with the Roy Hargrove

745
00:29:55,652 --> 00:29:59,602
Quintet and, uh, Charlie Haden Quartet West, where we were doing, like,

746
00:29:59,672 --> 00:30:03,522
concerts in these cool little, like, 300, 400-seat theaters in

747
00:30:03,632 --> 00:30:06,752
France, and w- I think we went to Germany a little bit and Italy, but it was a

748
00:30:06,812 --> 00:30:10,792
really fun tour. Um, and for some reason, like,

749
00:30:10,852 --> 00:30:13,382
Charlie insisted on, like, opening each night.

750
00:30:13,512 --> 00:30:13,702
Yeah.

751
00:30:13,712 --> 00:30:16,702
He was just like, "No, you guys are young cats." Uh, w- it was his...

752
00:30:16,732 --> 00:30:18,832
I, I didn't even wanna do his voice, but he had a great-

753
00:30:18,892 --> 00:30:18,902
Yeah

754
00:30:18,902 --> 00:30:19,852
... we used to all, like, you know-

755
00:30:19,862 --> 00:30:20,442
Just a very distinct voice.

756
00:30:20,512 --> 00:30:22,452
Yeah, man. So it was very... You know, I-

757
00:30:22,462 --> 00:30:22,572
Yeah

758
00:30:22,582 --> 00:30:23,752
... that's not a good version of it.

759
00:30:23,761 --> 00:30:23,761
But-

760
00:30:23,772 --> 00:30:25,472
Do you have that impression of everyone you've played with?

761
00:30:25,532 --> 00:30:27,712
'Cause sometimes it seems like that.

762
00:30:27,832 --> 00:30:31,512
Um, sorry, I'm a listener. Um, no, but he was so

763
00:30:31,572 --> 00:30:34,982
kind with us. It was Roy Hargrove, Ron Blake, Rodney Whitaker-

764
00:30:34,992 --> 00:30:35,842
Oh, my God. What a band

765
00:30:35,852 --> 00:30:36,852
... Greg Hutchinson.

766
00:30:36,892 --> 00:30:37,242
Holy smokes.

767
00:30:37,252 --> 00:30:38,772
Yeah. No, that w- yeah, that was Roy's band.

768
00:30:38,792 --> 00:30:39,722
It's a smoke show of a band.

769
00:30:39,732 --> 00:30:43,232
And then Charlie had this great quartet, and they were, m- Roy and Charlie were

770
00:30:43,252 --> 00:30:44,442
both on Verve Records.

771
00:30:44,492 --> 00:30:44,942
Yeah.

772
00:30:45,052 --> 00:30:47,952
Actually, I think that Charlie was on JATP.

773
00:30:48,012 --> 00:30:50,872
Tell me that Roy and Charlie played a ballad together at some point.

774
00:30:51,132 --> 00:30:51,772
Oh, yeah, for sure.

775
00:30:51,812 --> 00:30:52,182
I would-

776
00:30:52,192 --> 00:30:52,552
For sure

777
00:30:52,652 --> 00:30:54,192
... pay a million dollars to hear that.

778
00:30:54,232 --> 00:30:54,872
For su- oh.

779
00:30:54,912 --> 00:30:56,112
Good, 'cause I've got it on my phone.

780
00:30:56,152 --> 00:30:56,322
Son of a-

781
00:30:56,322 --> 00:30:56,802
Can I beam it to you?

782
00:30:56,802 --> 00:30:59,292
Text you that. I mean, you got a, a jump drive?

783
00:31:00,172 --> 00:31:03,812
No, so i- basically, uh, he would play t- Quartet

784
00:31:03,892 --> 00:31:07,522
West, which was a great band. This was one of the great '90s bands.

785
00:31:07,532 --> 00:31:09,612
They actually have some records that we should do.

786
00:31:09,652 --> 00:31:13,442
Uh, Lawrence Marable, I believe was his name, on drums. It was all, Quartet West.

787
00:31:13,672 --> 00:31:14,132
L- LA Cats.

788
00:31:14,172 --> 00:31:14,202
Yeah.

789
00:31:14,212 --> 00:31:15,372
You know, Charlie had been out there.

790
00:31:15,382 --> 00:31:15,402
Sure, sure, sure.

791
00:31:15,412 --> 00:31:16,642
Ernie Watts on saxophone.

792
00:31:16,672 --> 00:31:17,232
Sure, sure, sure, sure.

793
00:31:17,272 --> 00:31:18,272
You know, from The Tonight Show.

794
00:31:18,342 --> 00:31:18,342
Yeah.

795
00:31:18,342 --> 00:31:22,262
And, um, wh- what was his name? Uh, I was gonna say Andre Watts on

796
00:31:22,332 --> 00:31:25,872
piano. It was not Andre Watts. It was, um, I'll remember his name in a minute.

797
00:31:25,912 --> 00:31:29,312
Great pianist, um, legendary, like, Hollywood,

798
00:31:29,432 --> 00:31:32,672
uh, com- film composer, but also j- great jazz pianist.

799
00:31:32,712 --> 00:31:33,672
John Williams.

800
00:31:33,712 --> 00:31:37,401
No. No, no. Really, really, like, serious. I... Alan.

801
00:31:37,452 --> 00:31:41,032
Alan something. I'm, I'm spacing on his name. Great cat. My apologies.

802
00:31:41,072 --> 00:31:44,912
But he would, um... The theme of the band was they would play s-

803
00:31:44,972 --> 00:31:48,872
music of, like, old Hollywood from the '30s and the

804
00:31:48,892 --> 00:31:49,142
'40s.

805
00:31:49,172 --> 00:31:49,562
Oh, that's great.

806
00:31:49,562 --> 00:31:52,212
And, like, standards, but not, like, All the Things You Are.

807
00:31:52,232 --> 00:31:55,912
Like, stuff that, that... I mean, maybe the '40s and '50s. I'm not sure.

808
00:31:55,932 --> 00:31:59,852
But, like, film noir stuff and, and, and it was sm- I can still remember how

809
00:31:59,892 --> 00:32:02,782
they sounded. But Charlie Haden was just killing it every night, and then he would

810
00:32:02,892 --> 00:32:06,642
stay and, like, "Listen to us," and we would hang, and, and it was such a...

811
00:32:06,692 --> 00:32:08,392
All of them. It was, it was a great experience for me.

812
00:32:08,432 --> 00:32:09,212
Alan Broadbent.

813
00:32:09,272 --> 00:32:09,972
Alan Broadbent.

814
00:32:10,012 --> 00:32:10,022
Yeah.

815
00:32:10,022 --> 00:32:11,082
Of course. Alan Broadbent.

816
00:32:11,112 --> 00:32:11,572
Totally.

817
00:32:11,612 --> 00:32:12,332
Yep.

818
00:32:12,412 --> 00:32:16,312
Um, yeah, Charlie Haden, one of my all-time favorite musicians, honestly.

819
00:32:16,472 --> 00:32:19,952
W- the, the album that's impacted me the most in the last 10 years-

820
00:32:20,172 --> 00:32:20,312
Yep

821
00:32:20,552 --> 00:32:24,542
... of all the albums I've, I've heard, is the duo album with him and

822
00:32:24,572 --> 00:32:25,112
Hank Jones-

823
00:32:25,122 --> 00:32:25,242
Oh, yeah

824
00:32:25,242 --> 00:32:25,622
... that I just discovered.

825
00:32:25,632 --> 00:32:27,252
You and I go over that, yeah.

826
00:32:27,352 --> 00:32:30,752
Um, where they... Called Steal Away, where they're playing all of these hymns, just

827
00:32:30,832 --> 00:32:32,432
duo. Hank Jones and Charlie Haden from-

828
00:32:32,442 --> 00:32:32,442
Yeah

829
00:32:32,452 --> 00:32:33,422
... like, the mid-'90s.

830
00:32:33,472 --> 00:32:33,562
Yeah.

831
00:32:33,572 --> 00:32:33,862
And it is-

832
00:32:33,862 --> 00:32:34,612
And that's two of your favorites right there.

833
00:32:34,632 --> 00:32:36,892
It's one of the most gorgeous albums I've ever heard.

834
00:32:37,012 --> 00:32:37,222
Yeah.

835
00:32:37,232 --> 00:32:39,312
And, and it's been such a huge influence on my playing as a pianist.

836
00:32:39,332 --> 00:32:40,732
Can we add that to the list?

837
00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:43,202
Don Cherry, too, Peter. Don Cherry is an important part of this.

838
00:32:43,232 --> 00:32:43,282
Yes.

839
00:32:43,282 --> 00:32:46,832
Playing, uh, the pocket trumpet, the cornet,

840
00:32:46,952 --> 00:32:50,802
um, and such an interesting player, such an incredible

841
00:32:50,832 --> 00:32:51,352
sound.

842
00:32:51,412 --> 00:32:51,682
Yeah.

843
00:32:51,732 --> 00:32:55,152
One of my favorite parts of, of the story of this album and the Don Cherry

844
00:32:55,212 --> 00:32:58,632
connection, though, this is gonna seem a little crass, but, you know, Don Cherry

845
00:32:58,672 --> 00:33:00,262
had some kids who made music, too.

846
00:33:00,292 --> 00:33:00,602
That's right.

847
00:33:00,612 --> 00:33:01,032
Did you know that?

848
00:33:01,192 --> 00:33:03,402
Uh, well, one of which I knew. The other one I've learned about, so.

849
00:33:03,452 --> 00:33:07,412
So, they, he had, he had kids who were musicians, two of which

850
00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:09,752
had mega pop hits.

851
00:33:09,832 --> 00:33:10,342
Big hits.

852
00:33:10,372 --> 00:33:13,392
They were big, I guess you could call them one-hit wonders. I don't know.

853
00:33:13,452 --> 00:33:14,892
Neneh was, I think, I don't re-

854
00:33:14,902 --> 00:33:15,322
Neneh Cherry-

855
00:33:15,322 --> 00:33:15,642
I just remember that one record

856
00:33:15,652 --> 00:33:16,672
... and Eagle-Eye Cherry.

857
00:33:16,712 --> 00:33:16,752
Yeah.

858
00:33:16,792 --> 00:33:18,092
Both had huge hits. So here's Neneh.

859
00:33:18,102 --> 00:33:20,322
And if you don't know the songs, you do know the songs.

860
00:33:20,332 --> 00:33:20,402
Yeah.

861
00:33:20,432 --> 00:33:21,162
Here's Neneh Cherry singing.

862
00:33:21,212 --> 00:33:22,192
If you're of a certain age.

863
00:33:22,232 --> 00:33:23,802
I think this is '89 or '90 maybe.

864
00:33:23,812 --> 00:33:24,552
Yeah.

865
00:33:24,592 --> 00:33:26,752
We're looking good today.

866
00:33:26,772 --> 00:33:27,242
This is great.

867
00:33:27,242 --> 00:33:30,281
We're looking good in every way. No stopping me.

868
00:33:31,272 --> 00:33:34,612
You better watch, don't mess with me.

869
00:33:35,312 --> 00:33:36,272
No money man-

870
00:33:36,312 --> 00:33:36,732
Come on, now

871
00:33:36,792 --> 00:33:36,932
Yeah

872
00:33:36,972 --> 00:33:38,812
... can win my love.

873
00:33:39,772 --> 00:33:41,732
It's sweetness that's-

874
00:33:41,792 --> 00:33:42,672
Yeah. That was a big hit

875
00:33:42,852 --> 00:33:43,042
... so enough.

876
00:33:43,042 --> 00:33:46,542
So that's Don Cherry's daughter, Neneh, and this is Don Cherry's son, Eagle-Eye, in

877
00:33:46,572 --> 00:33:50,392
the mid-'90s. This was so popular when I was in high

878
00:33:50,472 --> 00:33:51,612
school.

879
00:33:51,752 --> 00:33:55,732
Say tonight. Fight the breakup,

880
00:33:55,752 --> 00:33:57,061
dawn comes tomorrow.

881
00:33:57,061 --> 00:33:58,512
The Sam Falls loving it.

882
00:33:58,552 --> 00:34:00,622
Tomorrow I'll be gone.

883
00:34:00,622 --> 00:34:00,692
Oh, my God.

884
00:34:00,702 --> 00:34:00,702
Say tonight.

885
00:34:00,712 --> 00:34:01,532
How old is that dude?

886
00:34:02,012 --> 00:34:03,982
I just think it's, I think it's so interesting.

887
00:34:03,992 --> 00:34:04,612
That guy's 30.

888
00:34:05,732 --> 00:34:09,453
I just think it's so interesting after listening to this album and hearing all this

889
00:34:09,462 --> 00:34:12,013
amazing avant-garde playing by Don Cherry-

890
00:34:12,022 --> 00:34:12,022
Right

891
00:34:12,033 --> 00:34:15,513
... that his two kids have these huge, like, hugely produced-

892
00:34:15,572 --> 00:34:15,732
Right

893
00:34:15,953 --> 00:34:16,792
... pop hits. It's-

894
00:34:16,832 --> 00:34:19,533
All our producer, all our staff is getting excited, like, "Oh, you know that

895
00:34:19,553 --> 00:34:19,872
record?"

896
00:34:19,912 --> 00:34:22,172
I know. They wanna hear Eagle-Eye Cherry.

897
00:34:22,192 --> 00:34:22,203
We know it.

898
00:34:22,252 --> 00:34:25,292
Uh, all right. So the, the, the last track on the album is Congeniality.

899
00:34:25,332 --> 00:34:26,473
Wait, what about Chronology?

900
00:34:27,332 --> 00:34:29,002
Oh, sorry. The second to last track. Sorry.

901
00:34:29,013 --> 00:34:29,953
The penultimate. Yeah.

902
00:34:29,973 --> 00:34:30,453
Excuse me.

903
00:34:30,473 --> 00:34:32,732
That's okay.

904
00:34:32,752 --> 00:34:35,632
Ooh.

905
00:34:37,973 --> 00:34:39,252
Another hard bop.

906
00:34:41,053 --> 00:34:43,212
Yeah, I have this song. Free bop.

907
00:34:45,212 --> 00:34:46,022
It is free bop, isn't it?

908
00:34:46,022 --> 00:34:46,292
Free bop.

909
00:34:46,312 --> 00:34:46,712
That's great.

910
00:34:46,752 --> 00:34:47,432
Brop.

911
00:34:47,453 --> 00:34:48,332
Brop. Eh.

912
00:34:48,592 --> 00:34:48,832
Yeah.

913
00:34:48,953 --> 00:34:50,652
I don't know about that.

914
00:34:51,732 --> 00:34:51,743
Free bop.

915
00:34:51,752 --> 00:34:53,912
Oh.

916
00:34:56,252 --> 00:34:58,072
It's so playful.

917
00:34:58,492 --> 00:34:59,892
Hey.

918
00:35:00,752 --> 00:35:34,642
Ooh.

919
00:35:34,672 --> 00:35:36,312
Yeah, I mean, at this time,

920
00:35:37,652 --> 00:35:40,182
the way...

921
00:35:42,032 --> 00:35:42,472
Yeah.

922
00:35:43,672 --> 00:35:46,712
The way he's phrasing, though, like, I could see how people would be like,

923
00:35:46,732 --> 00:35:47,932
"Nah." You know?

924
00:35:47,942 --> 00:35:47,942
Yeah.

925
00:35:47,942 --> 00:35:51,252
'Cause it's like, it's not like, he's, like, playing lines and being, "Be do ba do

926
00:35:51,262 --> 00:35:54,632
ba do ba," but it's like, "Be do ba do ba do ba." Like, he's going in and out of a,

927
00:35:55,012 --> 00:35:58,512
almost a rubato within the line, right?

928
00:36:00,532 --> 00:36:02,832
Oh, yeah, compared to, like, Bird.

929
00:36:02,892 --> 00:36:03,072
Yeah.

930
00:36:03,192 --> 00:36:03,782
Cannonball.

931
00:36:03,892 --> 00:36:05,362
Sonny. Sonny Rollins.

932
00:36:05,372 --> 00:36:05,382
Yeah.

933
00:36:05,392 --> 00:36:08,252
Train.

934
00:36:11,272 --> 00:36:14,052
But is there a Train without Ornette? You know?

935
00:36:14,092 --> 00:36:15,092
He definitely-

936
00:36:15,132 --> 00:36:15,732
Or at least Train is-

937
00:36:15,742 --> 00:36:15,982
... shaped-

938
00:36:15,982 --> 00:36:17,532
... '65, '66, shapes-

939
00:36:17,542 --> 00:36:19,052
... shaped the jazz that would come.

940
00:36:19,092 --> 00:36:19,352
Ooh.

941
00:36:19,372 --> 00:36:20,692
Um, before we get-

942
00:36:20,812 --> 00:36:21,162
Coming up. Well done

943
00:36:21,162 --> 00:36:23,252
... before we get to the categories, there's one more track to check out.

944
00:36:23,262 --> 00:36:23,262
Yep.

945
00:36:23,272 --> 00:36:24,102
This is, this is-

946
00:36:24,102 --> 00:36:25,012
This is a short record, by the way.

947
00:36:25,032 --> 00:36:26,852
It's, like, 37 and a half minutes.

948
00:36:26,862 --> 00:36:26,862
Right.

949
00:36:26,872 --> 00:36:28,952
Here's Chronology.

950
00:36:38,452 --> 00:36:40,512
Ooh, another brop.

951
00:36:41,332 --> 00:36:42,932
What a great song.

952
00:36:44,392 --> 00:36:47,412
I always thought this was Rhythm Changes, but I don't know if it is.

953
00:36:47,472 --> 00:36:49,252
I felt like it was their take on Rhythm Changes.

954
00:36:49,272 --> 00:36:50,032
It's got the vibe.

955
00:36:50,052 --> 00:36:52,372
Yep. It's definitely 32 bar

956
00:36:52,452 --> 00:36:56,108
form.Oh, I

957
00:36:56,148 --> 00:36:58,948
know. 'Cause that's seven bars, seven.

958
00:36:58,968 --> 00:36:59,088
Yeah.

959
00:36:59,108 --> 00:37:00,808
Seven, seven, eight, seven.

960
00:37:00,828 --> 00:37:02,708
Whoo.

961
00:37:04,548 --> 00:37:05,128
Uh.

962
00:37:05,168 --> 00:37:07,688
Roy Hargrove, influenced by Don Cherry a bunch.

963
00:37:07,708 --> 00:37:09,468
Talk about a percussive player.

964
00:37:09,508 --> 00:37:11,948
Yeah.

965
00:37:12,108 --> 00:37:18,088
Uh.

966
00:37:18,128 --> 00:37:19,308
Whoo.

967
00:37:20,728 --> 00:37:23,308
Man, what a great partner with Ornette.

968
00:37:23,348 --> 00:37:24,328
Now, am I speaking out of turn-

969
00:37:24,348 --> 00:37:24,778
Are there-

970
00:37:24,778 --> 00:37:28,377
... if I were to say that Don Cherry and Ornette did not

971
00:37:28,528 --> 00:37:31,628
have... Like, part of, I think, the balance of this, that somehow it works

972
00:37:31,848 --> 00:37:35,808
beautifully, Don Cherry and Ornette did not have the technical prowess that Charlie

973
00:37:35,868 --> 00:37:37,788
Haden and Billy Higgins had.

974
00:37:37,808 --> 00:37:38,468
You think so?

975
00:37:38,568 --> 00:37:39,848
I think so. You know?

976
00:37:39,858 --> 00:37:40,288
That's hard to say.

977
00:37:40,308 --> 00:37:43,968
But it's not, but it doesn't, like, there's no detriment to the music on this.

978
00:37:43,988 --> 00:37:47,588
Like, if I really listen to it, um, and, and

979
00:37:47,788 --> 00:37:51,088
like, Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins were, like, master technicians and, like,

980
00:37:51,128 --> 00:37:52,868
just great at their instruments, right?

981
00:37:52,908 --> 00:37:55,188
I don't think any of this matters to the listener, actually.

982
00:37:55,208 --> 00:37:57,868
Like, how good is your technique or wha- ... It's like with a, a painter.

983
00:37:57,888 --> 00:37:59,778
Like, certain painters are known for having incredible technique.

984
00:37:59,808 --> 00:38:03,188
Some weren't, not as much, but that, but the artistic vision and

985
00:38:03,328 --> 00:38:06,008
execution can be equal if not greater either way.

986
00:38:06,148 --> 00:38:09,628
It's just that when you have a quartet, there's a symmetry there and a balance, you

987
00:38:09,668 --> 00:38:09,928
know-

988
00:38:10,008 --> 00:38:10,208
Yeah

989
00:38:10,268 --> 00:38:11,228
... that I just think works.

990
00:38:11,268 --> 00:38:14,448
Well, I think it depends on where you put value in technique, right?

991
00:38:14,468 --> 00:38:18,308
Like, so what do you, what you're calling technique depends on what you put

992
00:38:18,468 --> 00:38:19,768
technical value on. And-

993
00:38:19,778 --> 00:38:21,248
Well, no, I'm just talking about basic stuff.

994
00:38:21,268 --> 00:38:24,038
Like, kinda like Mingus was saying, "I don't think he can play a scale."

995
00:38:24,088 --> 00:38:24,198
Yeah.

996
00:38:24,208 --> 00:38:25,468
All the way that would be, that would be a little harsh.

997
00:38:25,478 --> 00:38:29,388
But, but the artistic vision of Don Cherry and Or- Ornette Coleman is of the

998
00:38:29,408 --> 00:38:30,028
highest order.

999
00:38:30,068 --> 00:38:30,388
Oh, yeah.

1000
00:38:30,428 --> 00:38:34,368
That's, that's the technique, is like the artistic technique, m- m- you know,

1001
00:38:34,528 --> 00:38:36,148
more than maybe the instrumental technique.

1002
00:38:36,188 --> 00:38:36,408
Yeah.

1003
00:38:36,418 --> 00:38:36,418
I hear you.

1004
00:38:36,428 --> 00:38:37,148
Maybe that's what I'm saying.

1005
00:38:37,188 --> 00:38:40,408
And there's balance in this. And, I mean, we got a little flack a couple weeks ago

1006
00:38:40,428 --> 00:38:44,098
when we were comparing, like, Charlie Parker to punk rock for being underground,

1007
00:38:44,108 --> 00:38:48,048
and it wasn't. That was definitely like, yeah, Charlie Parker's not in, in punk

1008
00:38:48,148 --> 00:38:51,978
rock. Like, uh, uh, compared to punk rock, in that Charlie Parker was a masterful

1009
00:38:52,008 --> 00:38:55,148
technician, and punk rock musicians didn't give a shit about being-

1010
00:38:55,168 --> 00:38:56,518
And wore that as a badge of honor.

1011
00:38:56,518 --> 00:38:56,888
And wore it upon, the-

1012
00:38:56,928 --> 00:38:57,178
Right.

1013
00:38:57,228 --> 00:38:58,938
And this is kind of in the middle of that-

1014
00:38:58,948 --> 00:38:58,968
Right

1015
00:38:58,988 --> 00:39:02,828
... a little bit, where it's like part of the art of this is how different it

1016
00:39:02,888 --> 00:39:06,418
sounds from all of these flashy technical players that would've-

1017
00:39:06,488 --> 00:39:06,568
Right

1018
00:39:06,578 --> 00:39:07,968
... been around them at this time.

1019
00:39:08,008 --> 00:39:08,738
I just think that, like-

1020
00:39:08,768 --> 00:39:10,948
And by the way, that's a thing now. Like, this is a genre.

1021
00:39:10,958 --> 00:39:10,958
Sure.

1022
00:39:10,988 --> 00:39:11,928
A whole genre of jazz now.

1023
00:39:11,937 --> 00:39:14,758
Sure, of course. But I just think that the ba- like, we, we shouldn't...

1024
00:39:14,788 --> 00:39:18,238
Like, when you have a masterful re- record like this, a document that stood the

1025
00:39:18,308 --> 00:39:22,128
ste- you know, test of time, and is just, has so many different angles and en-

1026
00:39:22,188 --> 00:39:26,038
uh, to enjoy it from, I think looking at the balance of

1027
00:39:26,088 --> 00:39:29,688
the players. Like, if everybody has the, the level of technique

1028
00:39:30,628 --> 00:39:34,028
i- you know, in terms of the rhythm section that maybe Don Cherry and Ornette

1029
00:39:34,068 --> 00:39:35,768
Coleman had, maybe this doesn't work.

1030
00:39:35,788 --> 00:39:39,728
But maybe, you know, Charlie Haden, and I'm, I'm oversimplifying. Apologies.

1031
00:39:39,768 --> 00:39:40,208
No.

1032
00:39:40,248 --> 00:39:44,088
But Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins, maybe they're

1033
00:39:44,148 --> 00:39:46,588
being elevated with the artistic freedom.

1034
00:39:46,608 --> 00:39:46,618
For-

1035
00:39:46,628 --> 00:39:48,768
You know what I mean? So it, but, 'cause none of this really matters.

1036
00:39:48,788 --> 00:39:50,068
Like, what is the output?

1037
00:39:50,108 --> 00:39:50,248
Yeah.

1038
00:39:50,268 --> 00:39:51,058
What is the whole result?

1039
00:39:51,068 --> 00:39:51,978
And this is one of the greatest albums.

1040
00:39:52,008 --> 00:39:54,568
Maybe they got lucky. Maybe Ornette was a genius and was like, "I'm gonna get this

1041
00:39:54,608 --> 00:39:57,088
kind of," but, but whatever, for whatever reason, it comes out.

1042
00:39:57,108 --> 00:40:00,928
Like, sometimes having all, like, master technicians on their instrument in a band

1043
00:40:00,968 --> 00:40:04,148
is not fun. You know what I mean? And look, not everyone's gonna be a master

1044
00:40:04,228 --> 00:40:04,528
technician.

1045
00:40:04,548 --> 00:40:05,418
It's degrees, man.

1046
00:40:05,488 --> 00:40:09,368
Yeah. And a master. But, like, the whole thing is, like, from a quartet,

1047
00:40:09,408 --> 00:40:12,778
from a, a trio, a duo, anything time you get beyond solo piano, whatever.

1048
00:40:12,808 --> 00:40:14,488
Okay. Can I be honest about this?

1049
00:40:14,498 --> 00:40:14,498
Yeah.

1050
00:40:14,588 --> 00:40:18,498
I actually find the Venn diagrams of people who are master technicians and

1051
00:40:18,548 --> 00:40:22,108
master artists to be almost two complete separate circles.

1052
00:40:22,148 --> 00:40:22,228
Yeah.

1053
00:40:22,248 --> 00:40:23,848
Like, that's my opinion on this.

1054
00:40:23,868 --> 00:40:24,268
Yeah.

1055
00:40:24,308 --> 00:40:28,078
But I mean, you know, and really the only person who's

1056
00:40:28,108 --> 00:40:31,058
linking them up is kind of Art Tatum. You know what I mean?

1057
00:40:31,068 --> 00:40:31,488
Who's in the mi-

1058
00:40:31,498 --> 00:40:31,498
Yeah.

1059
00:40:31,508 --> 00:40:34,597
But even people think he's too flashy and too, there's too much fireworks.

1060
00:40:34,628 --> 00:40:36,828
People think Oscar Peterson is too technical.

1061
00:40:36,838 --> 00:40:36,838
Yeah.

1062
00:40:36,868 --> 00:40:39,408
Right? So it is just a matter of taste.

1063
00:40:39,468 --> 00:40:39,558
Right.

1064
00:40:39,588 --> 00:40:43,548
Some people might think that this is, this, this playing is BS, because

1065
00:40:43,588 --> 00:40:47,148
it's not, you know, Jackie McLean. It's not technical.

1066
00:40:47,208 --> 00:40:47,518
It's not-

1067
00:40:47,528 --> 00:40:47,698
Right.

1068
00:40:47,728 --> 00:40:51,597
It's not biting or whatever. It, it is technical in, in certain ways, but it's not

1069
00:40:51,628 --> 00:40:55,578
the obvious ways that, like, a, uh, you know, a Charlie Parker is, where

1070
00:40:55,588 --> 00:40:58,408
it's just obvious, like, holy smokes, nobody can do that. You know what I mean?

1071
00:40:58,448 --> 00:40:58,988
Right, right.

1072
00:40:59,028 --> 00:40:59,358
So I, I-

1073
00:40:59,368 --> 00:41:02,288
And in some ways, look, Ornette has such a distinctive

1074
00:41:02,408 --> 00:41:06,208
sound. But, like, if you put it with, like, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins,

1075
00:41:06,328 --> 00:41:09,928
Coltrane around this time, like, you could s- you, there's just specific things you

1076
00:41:09,948 --> 00:41:13,088
could say about the roundness of his tone.

1077
00:41:13,108 --> 00:41:14,198
Well, I mean, t- tone is different.

1078
00:41:14,208 --> 00:41:15,608
Because, like, if you have a sound-

1079
00:41:15,628 --> 00:41:15,737
Yeah

1080
00:41:15,737 --> 00:41:16,368
... you're killing it, right?

1081
00:41:16,388 --> 00:41:16,748
Yeah, yeah.

1082
00:41:16,768 --> 00:41:20,248
But, I mean, just in terms of, like, finger technique and, and that kinda thing.

1083
00:41:20,288 --> 00:41:23,218
I mean, the intonation, actually, like, they have a lot of control over-

1084
00:41:23,228 --> 00:41:23,297
They do

1085
00:41:23,297 --> 00:41:24,408
... intonation and stuff.

1086
00:41:24,418 --> 00:41:27,638
I, I'm just talking about, like, here's what makes, this is what makes Bird and

1087
00:41:27,688 --> 00:41:29,748
Coltrane, I think, in particular-

1088
00:41:29,808 --> 00:41:29,908
Yeah

1089
00:41:30,008 --> 00:41:32,068
... so special, is that they are

1090
00:41:33,288 --> 00:41:34,838
technical masters of their instruments.

1091
00:41:34,888 --> 00:41:35,228
Right.

1092
00:41:35,268 --> 00:41:35,688
Like-

1093
00:41:35,728 --> 00:41:35,928
Right

1094
00:41:35,938 --> 00:41:36,568
... no doubt.

1095
00:41:36,588 --> 00:41:37,088
Yeah.

1096
00:41:37,168 --> 00:41:40,708
And they push the art that they were making forward

1097
00:41:40,968 --> 00:41:42,448
10 years. Both of them.

1098
00:41:42,488 --> 00:41:42,498
Yeah.

1099
00:41:42,548 --> 00:41:45,328
And there's varying degrees of that in all of the people that we love and talk

1100
00:41:45,388 --> 00:41:48,568
about, but I think with those two in particular, and, and I'm sure everybody has

1101
00:41:48,588 --> 00:41:50,288
their favorites that they, they think. That's what I'm saying.

1102
00:41:50,308 --> 00:41:52,148
It's a degree of taste with what you like-

1103
00:41:52,168 --> 00:41:52,318
Yeah

1104
00:41:52,318 --> 00:41:53,248
... with this kinda stuff.

1105
00:41:53,348 --> 00:41:56,238
I just think, man, this combination, I love it. You know?

1106
00:41:56,288 --> 00:41:56,788
I love it, too.

1107
00:41:56,928 --> 00:41:57,078
I mean-

1108
00:41:57,078 --> 00:41:57,258
No, I mean, this is amazing

1109
00:41:57,258 --> 00:41:59,848
... not to say that if you took any one, it's not like, oh, they need each other.

1110
00:41:59,868 --> 00:42:03,848
No, I'm just saying on this music, the balance of this record

1111
00:42:03,928 --> 00:42:07,848
is, is incredible. You know, just for you, this extra track that was added

1112
00:42:07,888 --> 00:42:11,478
on later is fine. I mean, it just, I was used to the flow of the six tracks.

1113
00:42:11,548 --> 00:42:11,618
I got it.

1114
00:42:11,628 --> 00:42:13,408
So that's all, that's why we're not listening to that one.

1115
00:42:13,428 --> 00:42:14,608
Let's get to some, uh, categories here.

1116
00:42:14,668 --> 00:42:15,068
Okay.

1117
00:42:15,078 --> 00:42:18,248
So our categories, we have ni- uh, eight categories.

1118
00:42:18,308 --> 00:42:18,848
Yes.

1119
00:42:18,928 --> 00:42:20,028
And we'll start with our desert-

1120
00:42:20,038 --> 00:42:20,228
Oh, chill

1121
00:42:20,548 --> 00:42:24,428
... desert island tracks. If you had one track to take from this album

1122
00:42:24,488 --> 00:42:25,488
on a desert island, which would it be?

1123
00:42:25,548 --> 00:42:29,318
I would say Peace. I love Peace, but I mean, Lovely, Lonely Woman is lovely as

1124
00:42:29,408 --> 00:42:29,518
well.

1125
00:42:29,528 --> 00:42:30,348
Peace is a great call.

1126
00:42:30,368 --> 00:42:30,378
Yeah.

1127
00:42:30,408 --> 00:42:33,388
I have Lonely Woman. I think you can make an argument for either.

1128
00:42:33,408 --> 00:42:33,608
Yeah.

1129
00:42:33,628 --> 00:42:35,318
Apex moments. What's your apex moment?

1130
00:42:35,328 --> 00:42:38,758
Man, I love Billy Hig- we didn't get to it, Billy Higgins' solo on

1131
00:42:38,808 --> 00:42:42,058
Focus On Your Sanity, Focus on Sanity at the end.

1132
00:42:42,068 --> 00:42:43,868
We could maybe just play a little. And then the way,

1133
00:42:44,788 --> 00:42:48,758
the way they end it. Come back with the so-called melody really q- I mean,

1134
00:42:48,768 --> 00:42:49,748
it's masterful.

1135
00:42:51,208 --> 00:42:53,508
This solo.

1136
00:43:01,992 --> 00:43:05,542
One of the great free drums- drums, jazz drum solos.

1137
00:43:05,552 --> 00:43:06,192
Billy Higgins.

1138
00:43:06,232 --> 00:43:08,132
Yeah.

1139
00:43:11,412 --> 00:43:13,392
And really, the, you gotta get, you know, the whole build-up.

1140
00:43:13,472 --> 00:43:17,002
We won't get into all that, but, like, where this comes from is, like, is kinda

1141
00:43:17,092 --> 00:43:20,992
the- the- the- the apex moment of this track, and, like, the whole thing

1142
00:43:21,072 --> 00:43:23,472
leading up to it is so good.

1143
00:43:25,632 --> 00:43:26,172
That's amazing.

1144
00:43:26,212 --> 00:43:26,612
Yeah.

1145
00:43:26,652 --> 00:43:27,692
You know what I have for apex moment?

1146
00:43:27,812 --> 00:43:27,822
Yes.

1147
00:43:27,822 --> 00:43:28,512
Here's what I wrote down.

1148
00:43:28,552 --> 00:43:29,352
I mean, no, I don't.

1149
00:43:29,392 --> 00:43:30,672
That's not what this album is about.

1150
00:43:30,812 --> 00:43:31,262
Okay.

1151
00:43:31,312 --> 00:43:33,112
I have that. I really think one of the-

1152
00:43:33,122 --> 00:43:34,392
The, like, billion soul, is that what you said?

1153
00:43:34,452 --> 00:43:37,472
I love billion soul. No, I really think one of the striking things listening to

1154
00:43:37,512 --> 00:43:40,452
this now, and, uh, you know, like I said, this hit me when I was really a- a

1155
00:43:40,492 --> 00:43:44,092
younger man, and I don't pull this out as much as I- I probably do other

1156
00:43:44,152 --> 00:43:47,892
albums at the moment, but the way that

1157
00:43:48,072 --> 00:43:52,052
this hit me listening to it this week was that, like,

1158
00:43:52,092 --> 00:43:55,772
you talked about, like, that Wynton band with Tain and Kenny Kirkland-

1159
00:43:55,812 --> 00:43:55,872
Yeah

1160
00:43:55,881 --> 00:43:58,052
... and Miles is at the Plugged Nickel.

1161
00:43:58,112 --> 00:44:01,811
A lot of those bands have this amazing way that they apex these

1162
00:44:01,912 --> 00:44:02,552
solos.

1163
00:44:02,572 --> 00:44:03,032
Mm-hmm.

1164
00:44:03,052 --> 00:44:05,182
You know, there are these incredible apex moments.

1165
00:44:05,232 --> 00:44:08,592
I mean, or we listened to, like, Stevie last week, and the whole album apex is the

1166
00:44:08,652 --> 00:44:09,352
final chord.

1167
00:44:09,392 --> 00:44:09,952
Yeah, at the, uh, yeah.

1168
00:44:09,962 --> 00:44:11,032
Yeah, and it's in- just incredible.

1169
00:44:11,072 --> 00:44:11,232
Yeah.

1170
00:44:11,252 --> 00:44:14,051
What's in- interesting about this is, even though they're doing all of this intense

1171
00:44:14,132 --> 00:44:17,922
stuff, and it's so free, it stays at this...

1172
00:44:17,932 --> 00:44:19,092
They're so relaxed.

1173
00:44:19,132 --> 00:44:19,432
Yeah.

1174
00:44:19,472 --> 00:44:22,812
And it's so even. Even as these things are

1175
00:44:22,872 --> 00:44:26,492
happening, it is not this, like, intense build to this, this

1176
00:44:26,532 --> 00:44:26,882
intense-

1177
00:44:26,892 --> 00:44:26,902
Yeah

1178
00:44:26,902 --> 00:44:29,072
... build to this. Now we break it down. This intense build to this.

1179
00:44:29,132 --> 00:44:31,131
Everything maintains the simmer.

1180
00:44:31,152 --> 00:44:31,192
Mm-hmm.

1181
00:44:31,332 --> 00:44:32,212
I love it about it.

1182
00:44:32,252 --> 00:44:32,792
That's great.

1183
00:44:32,802 --> 00:44:32,962
So in a way-

1184
00:44:32,972 --> 00:44:35,732
Yeah, and it's like there's ebbs and flows, but there's not peaks and there's

1185
00:44:35,742 --> 00:44:35,742
valleys.

1186
00:44:35,742 --> 00:44:36,592
There's not peaks and valleys-

1187
00:44:36,712 --> 00:44:36,722
Yeah

1188
00:44:36,722 --> 00:44:39,132
... but there's, like, curves and s- uh, swerves.

1189
00:44:39,142 --> 00:44:39,142
Yeah.

1190
00:44:39,152 --> 00:44:41,812
I don't know how to describe it, but that's how I truly feel about it.

1191
00:44:41,832 --> 00:44:44,252
But what do you got for a Bespoke Playlist title?

1192
00:44:44,352 --> 00:44:46,492
Um, I mean, I'm gonna just go to the classic.

1193
00:44:46,512 --> 00:44:48,952
Well, this is classic 1959, you know?

1194
00:44:49,052 --> 00:44:49,572
Like you-

1195
00:44:49,582 --> 00:44:50,312
Classic 1959.

1196
00:44:50,352 --> 00:44:53,552
Yeah. I mean, you could, you... That we- we've talked about and debated, but you

1197
00:44:53,572 --> 00:44:56,952
could just have a playlist of all music from 1959, and it would be jazz from

1198
00:44:56,972 --> 00:44:59,812
1959, and it would be quite varied.

1199
00:44:59,872 --> 00:45:00,842
Yeah. Uh-

1200
00:45:00,852 --> 00:45:01,222
What do you have?

1201
00:45:01,222 --> 00:45:04,012
I have, I have Music That Starts a Riot, and you could put this with some

1202
00:45:04,032 --> 00:45:05,072
Stravinsky.

1203
00:45:05,092 --> 00:45:05,102
Ooh.

1204
00:45:05,132 --> 00:45:07,972
You might put this with a little bit of The Clash.

1205
00:45:07,992 --> 00:45:08,002
Right.

1206
00:45:08,012 --> 00:45:10,712
You know what I mean? Like, put it with a little bit of, like, ooh, this is

1207
00:45:10,831 --> 00:45:11,752
dangerous music.

1208
00:45:11,852 --> 00:45:12,132
Right.

1209
00:45:12,172 --> 00:45:13,841
And people are pushing back against it. That's what that is.

1210
00:45:13,841 --> 00:45:14,882
That's understated, but I got you. Okay.

1211
00:45:14,892 --> 00:45:15,872
You got your quibble bits-

1212
00:45:15,932 --> 00:45:16,882
Quibble bits. I mean-

1213
00:45:16,882 --> 00:45:19,512
... on this album, anything you disagree with, even no matter how minute.

1214
00:45:19,572 --> 00:45:23,362
I mean, just, I mean, this is a silly one, no piano. That's for selfish reasons.

1215
00:45:23,372 --> 00:45:24,192
He doesn't need it.

1216
00:45:25,052 --> 00:45:27,061
I had a, I had a similar, just a funny one, which is, like, could've used some

1217
00:45:27,132 --> 00:45:27,752
chords.

1218
00:45:28,352 --> 00:45:28,612
Selfish.

1219
00:45:28,652 --> 00:45:29,372
That's not true.

1220
00:45:29,412 --> 00:45:31,752
Harmolodics is great, but what about harmony?

1221
00:45:31,772 --> 00:45:35,372
Yeah, what about a little... You ever heard of a diminished chord, guys? Come on.

1222
00:45:35,492 --> 00:45:36,532
Uh, snob-o-meter.

1223
00:45:36,572 --> 00:45:36,972
How many?

1224
00:45:37,012 --> 00:45:39,322
How snobby is this? This is a one, not snobby at all, 10, maximum.

1225
00:45:39,322 --> 00:45:41,182
Do you want me to go first, or do you wanna go first on this?

1226
00:45:41,252 --> 00:45:45,072
I got a 10. Do you got a five?

1227
00:45:45,132 --> 00:45:46,412
This is a classic five.

1228
00:45:46,512 --> 00:45:46,872
Oh, we-

1229
00:45:46,912 --> 00:45:48,872
If this is not... Okay, how could this be?

1230
00:45:48,892 --> 00:45:51,332
You're saying that this is the snobbiest record of all time?

1231
00:45:51,392 --> 00:45:52,142
It's one of the snobbiest.

1232
00:45:52,172 --> 00:45:55,781
But, dude, this is on, like, every top 10 jazz albums.

1233
00:45:55,792 --> 00:45:58,132
It's, like, checking the box. That's the free, weird one.

1234
00:45:58,192 --> 00:46:01,212
Everybody knows it. What's snobbier?

1235
00:46:01,222 --> 00:46:02,252
Okay, I- I'm not gonna disagree with you.

1236
00:46:02,272 --> 00:46:05,592
And even if it's, even if you say Ornette Coleman is snob, you'd be like, "Free

1237
00:46:05,672 --> 00:46:09,502
jazz over Shape of Jazz to Come." This is a very commercially successful-

1238
00:46:09,532 --> 00:46:09,732
Okay

1239
00:46:10,372 --> 00:46:11,952
... I, am I lying?

1240
00:46:12,072 --> 00:46:15,242
I think this music- ... if you don't, like you s- you even said it in the beginning

1241
00:46:15,252 --> 00:46:17,592
of the show, you can't come into this unseasoned.

1242
00:46:17,632 --> 00:46:20,572
You have to have listened to a lot of jazz to even understand where this is coming

1243
00:46:20,612 --> 00:46:21,422
from. And this-

1244
00:46:21,432 --> 00:46:23,272
Is that what the snob-o-meter measures?

1245
00:46:23,332 --> 00:46:24,012
Well, that's, to me-

1246
00:46:24,022 --> 00:46:24,772
How seasoned one is?

1247
00:46:24,782 --> 00:46:28,692
... how I think about it. Yeah, like, you, a- a layperson who's, has never heard

1248
00:46:28,732 --> 00:46:31,932
this music, if this was the first jazz they heard, they'd be like, "Ugh, I don't

1249
00:46:31,992 --> 00:46:32,942
understand what's going on."

1250
00:46:32,992 --> 00:46:36,642
I know, but a snob would be like, "Ah, that's not even his best record."

1251
00:46:36,652 --> 00:46:37,672
Oh, okay.

1252
00:46:37,712 --> 00:46:38,792
So that's why I said five.

1253
00:46:38,852 --> 00:46:38,932
Uh-

1254
00:46:38,952 --> 00:46:40,432
But Aunt Linda would not like this record.

1255
00:46:40,442 --> 00:46:40,462
Not at all, no.

1256
00:46:40,472 --> 00:46:42,352
That's why I can't go one, so.

1257
00:46:42,412 --> 00:46:44,512
She would, she would get violent. She would start a riot.

1258
00:46:44,712 --> 00:46:45,121
She'd start a riot.

1259
00:46:45,192 --> 00:46:46,082
Uh, is this better-

1260
00:46:46,092 --> 00:46:47,012
And not a quiet riot.

1261
00:46:47,112 --> 00:46:48,992
No. Is this better than Kind of Blue?

1262
00:46:49,052 --> 00:46:49,512
Uh, no.

1263
00:46:49,552 --> 00:46:50,432
No. Uh-

1264
00:46:50,452 --> 00:46:51,392
But it's damn good.

1265
00:46:51,432 --> 00:46:54,072
It's damn good, but I don't, I don't prefer it to Kind of Blue.

1266
00:46:54,132 --> 00:46:54,452
No.

1267
00:46:54,532 --> 00:46:55,232
Uh, accoutrements.

1268
00:46:55,292 --> 00:46:58,472
Al- although, think, hmm.

1269
00:46:59,552 --> 00:47:00,782
Better than...

1270
00:47:00,812 --> 00:47:04,032
It's so stupid, this category. 'Cause it's so different than Kind of Blue.

1271
00:47:04,042 --> 00:47:04,042
Yeah.

1272
00:47:04,052 --> 00:47:05,802
It's so ridiculous to even compare them.

1273
00:47:05,812 --> 00:47:06,412
Okay.

1274
00:47:06,452 --> 00:47:09,332
But are we talk- If, if I'm just talking about my own personal listening habits-

1275
00:47:09,352 --> 00:47:09,362
I know

1276
00:47:09,362 --> 00:47:11,492
... which one have I listened to more in my life, Kind of Blue wins.

1277
00:47:11,532 --> 00:47:12,492
Yeah, for sure.

1278
00:47:12,592 --> 00:47:14,022
Um, accoutrements. We got-

1279
00:47:14,052 --> 00:47:16,272
I'm going eight, and I'm, I would almost go nine.

1280
00:47:16,312 --> 00:47:16,672
Yeah.

1281
00:47:16,792 --> 00:47:20,132
Um, but the, uh, this, the- the- the

1282
00:47:20,191 --> 00:47:21,492
typography or the font-

1283
00:47:21,532 --> 00:47:22,032
The font?

1284
00:47:22,052 --> 00:47:22,422
... I'm not crazy about.

1285
00:47:22,432 --> 00:47:23,972
Okay, see, for me, that's a feature, not a bug.

1286
00:47:23,982 --> 00:47:27,652
Well, no, no. I mean, and it's so, I- I mean, everything in the, the

1287
00:47:27,692 --> 00:47:29,692
pictures are great, but to me, that takes away a little bit.

1288
00:47:29,712 --> 00:47:30,462
It's, it's good, though.

1289
00:47:30,552 --> 00:47:32,022
I got a nine. I think it's really good.

1290
00:47:32,022 --> 00:47:32,092
Okay.

1291
00:47:32,112 --> 00:47:32,542
I really-

1292
00:47:32,552 --> 00:47:35,412
It fits the, the, the vibe of the album so well, so that's good.

1293
00:47:35,452 --> 00:47:38,792
The only reason I don't have a 10 is 'cause I wonder what it would be like if they

1294
00:47:38,832 --> 00:47:41,052
let Ornette name it Focus on Sanity.

1295
00:47:41,092 --> 00:47:41,162
Yeah, I know.

1296
00:47:41,162 --> 00:47:41,982
And what that would look like.

1297
00:47:41,992 --> 00:47:42,952
For, I mean, if we're including-

1298
00:47:43,192 --> 00:47:46,272
I love, first of all, I just love his sweater.

1299
00:47:46,312 --> 00:47:47,162
Yeah, the sweater with the sh-

1300
00:47:47,162 --> 00:47:47,992
The sweater, shirt, tie.

1301
00:47:48,052 --> 00:47:49,462
Yeah, and the tie's kinda hidden under there.

1302
00:47:49,472 --> 00:47:50,152
Classic combination.

1303
00:47:50,172 --> 00:47:51,342
That's, that's an Adam Maness album.

1304
00:47:51,342 --> 00:47:54,252
By the way, Ornette, even though, you know, I mean, he's playing this, this, um,

1305
00:47:54,312 --> 00:47:56,442
avant-garde music, incredible dresser.

1306
00:47:56,472 --> 00:47:56,882
Yeah. He was-

1307
00:47:56,882 --> 00:47:57,882
Incredibly well-dressed his whole life

1308
00:47:57,892 --> 00:47:58,592
... snappy dresser.

1309
00:47:58,612 --> 00:47:58,832
Incredible.

1310
00:47:58,852 --> 00:48:01,761
I mean, I would almost push it up to a nine if we're taking the title into the

1311
00:48:01,792 --> 00:48:04,932
accoutrements 'cause this is one of the... I, I would give the title a 10.

1312
00:48:04,972 --> 00:48:06,072
Shape of Jazz to Come.

1313
00:48:06,172 --> 00:48:07,572
Up next, what do you got?

1314
00:48:07,692 --> 00:48:10,752
Um, oh, what did I... Oh, free jazz.

1315
00:48:10,792 --> 00:48:11,192
Perfect.

1316
00:48:11,252 --> 00:48:11,562
Yeah.

1317
00:48:11,562 --> 00:48:11,622
'Cause-

1318
00:48:11,622 --> 00:48:15,082
'Cause actually, so this is one thing I would think about, and this is why I'll

1319
00:48:15,192 --> 00:48:18,602
almost, uh, uh, equivocated on Kind of Blue better than Kind of

1320
00:48:18,652 --> 00:48:22,012
Blue. This kind of music, I remember, like, once you get into it and listen to this

1321
00:48:22,032 --> 00:48:24,412
whole album like I've been doing on the LP the last few days-

1322
00:48:24,472 --> 00:48:24,572
Yeah

1323
00:48:24,582 --> 00:48:28,032
... like, it makes me want more. Like, I can't listen to this and then be like,

1324
00:48:28,042 --> 00:48:30,442
"Oh, let's go listen to Time Out," or, "Let's go listen to KOB."

1325
00:48:30,512 --> 00:48:30,932
You want more.

1326
00:48:30,972 --> 00:48:32,932
Like, it seems, yeah, I wanna go to free jazz.

1327
00:48:33,052 --> 00:48:33,142
Yeah.

1328
00:48:33,142 --> 00:48:33,852
You know what I mean?

1329
00:48:33,912 --> 00:48:36,422
I know. I know. Well, I wanna go to Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch.

1330
00:48:36,472 --> 00:48:36,802
Out to Lunch. This is a great one.

1331
00:48:36,812 --> 00:48:38,042
One of my favorite albums of all time.

1332
00:48:38,052 --> 00:48:38,722
Yeah.

1333
00:48:38,852 --> 00:48:42,552
Uh, I discovered it around the same time I discovered this album. I love them both.

1334
00:48:42,592 --> 00:48:45,242
They're like family to me at this point, so.

1335
00:48:45,252 --> 00:48:48,192
You know what album I truly love but I would never listen to after this?

1336
00:48:48,202 --> 00:48:48,432
What?

1337
00:48:48,452 --> 00:48:51,952
Anita Baker's Rapture. I don't know why I'm thinking of that, but we're gonna throw

1338
00:48:51,992 --> 00:48:52,082
that in the mix next time.

1339
00:48:52,092 --> 00:48:55,112
Coming up next on You'll Hear It. Uh, hey, by the way, did you know that we have a

1340
00:48:55,212 --> 00:48:55,682
newsletter?

1341
00:48:55,712 --> 00:48:55,722
I love newsletters.

1342
00:48:55,722 --> 00:48:58,142
If we had a newsletter, what would we call it from the You'll Hear It podcast?

1343
00:48:58,432 --> 00:48:59,232
What would-

1344
00:48:59,242 --> 00:49:02,832
Uh, You'll, You'll Hear It Written Edition. .com.

1345
00:49:02,932 --> 00:49:05,552
Snappy. Snappy title. No, it's called You'll Read It, Peter.

1346
00:49:05,592 --> 00:49:06,432
Oh, You'll Read It. Of course.

1347
00:49:06,442 --> 00:49:07,702
Yeah. You're gonna get insights and behind-the-scenes from the show.

1348
00:49:07,732 --> 00:49:09,072
Go to youllreadit.com.

1349
00:49:09,132 --> 00:49:09,312
No.

1350
00:49:09,352 --> 00:49:09,692
Oh, okay.

1351
00:49:09,712 --> 00:49:12,712
Just click the link in the description to sign up for the newsletter.

1352
00:49:12,752 --> 00:49:12,882
Yeah.

1353
00:49:12,972 --> 00:49:13,992
And yeah.

1354
00:49:14,032 --> 00:49:16,761
Oh, we have some, some more notes. Oh, no, that's from the record.

1355
00:49:16,792 --> 00:49:16,922
Yeah.

1356
00:49:16,932 --> 00:49:19,112
Hey, we, uh, we were nominated for an AMBY.

1357
00:49:19,172 --> 00:49:19,602
I know. We didn't win.

1358
00:49:19,602 --> 00:49:21,172
An Ambie. It's an Ambie.

1359
00:49:21,212 --> 00:49:23,852
Is it Ambie? Ambiance? We did not win.

1360
00:49:23,872 --> 00:49:23,882
No.

1361
00:49:23,892 --> 00:49:26,382
Shout out to, uh, Twenty Thousand Hertz, uh, from-

1362
00:49:26,392 --> 00:49:28,032
Yeah, Twenty Thousand, Dallas and-

1363
00:49:28,042 --> 00:49:28,062
... the Ambies

1364
00:49:28,062 --> 00:49:29,002
... and the crew. Yeah.

1365
00:49:29,012 --> 00:49:29,462
But thanks.

1366
00:49:29,492 --> 00:49:31,522
We were, we were at, we were with some good people there.

1367
00:49:31,572 --> 00:49:32,582
I mean, uh, is it-

1368
00:49:32,582 --> 00:49:34,792
I watched, I watched the... We're going, we're going next year.

1369
00:49:34,832 --> 00:49:36,192
Is this show good?

1370
00:49:36,252 --> 00:49:37,212
It's good. It's pretty good.

1371
00:49:37,312 --> 00:49:38,332
Ah, I don't know. All right.

1372
00:49:38,372 --> 00:49:40,782
I wish I hadn't taken an Ambien right before I watched the...

1373
00:49:40,792 --> 00:49:41,872
That, that kinda threw me off a little bit.

1374
00:49:41,912 --> 00:49:44,412
Yeah, your text got super dark. All right, till next time.

1375
00:49:44,452 --> 00:49:47,352
You'll Hear It.