[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond 

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am purely.

[00:00:15] Dan: now, purely, we're not going to talk about the dreaded P word of the pandemic this week. Um, we're trying to avoid that. What what's happening? What, what have you seen this week? This cheered you up a little bit. 

[00:00:25] Pia: Well, we've had a really great, we, not me moment. So canvas the online design tool, um, they got valued at 40 billion that wasn't, the light is great for them, but the really amazing bit was that the co-founders, uh, Melanie Perkins and Clifford, Brett, they gave 30% of their stake to form a foundation so that they could give to not-for-profits and charities for free. 

[00:00:55] So, uh, a really a different move here and, and they talked about let's get a really great product and a business, and then let's do some really great stuff into the, into the world. So I thought that pretty aligned to the conversation with talking about like, getting that joint goal and bringing that together as a team.

[00:01:17] Cause they, they really celebrated as a team and yeah. Good, good. A good, a good feeling. I think across Australia for, for that business, I'm really, really excited about

[00:01:28] Dan: That's that's excellent. We talk a lot. Don't we about having that? And I think people sometimes talk about purpose or profit, which one you're going. I was lovely to see these organizations really getting around how, how you can, how you can have both. And as you say, having that really clear goal for that organization is a really nice little segue into our conversations today that, um, that we're going to be talking about sales teams, which is very much obviously about goals. And we're going to be Anna Britain or guests who has a lot of good stuff to say, and some really pragmatic tips for us. 

[00:01:58] 

[00:02:01] Dan: Welcome Anna to the we, not me podcast. Thank you so much for being with us.

[00:02:06] Anna: It was great to be here. Thanks though.

[00:02:07] Dan: It's great to see you. And, um, tell us a little bit about yourself and what's, um, what brought you to this point?

[00:02:13] Anna: Well, I've worked in technology sales specifically for over 30 years now. And following on from a sales career, I moved into training, coaching, developing salespeople, which has brought me today to allocate a business growth, which is all about working with technology sales. I work a lot with. At SAS and tech companies that are growing particularly growing globally and who are looking to accelerate that growth.

[00:02:42] So typically they've got big growth targets and they know they can't make them by just working harder or smarter. They need to go about things a different way. So that's basically what I do today to support teams.

[00:02:55] Pia: So, um, I'll jump in here. I think with a, with a, with a bit of a contentious questions, Glidden and talk about sales teams. Are they really teams or are they groups of individuals that are brought together? Tell us about the psyche of a sales person and the sales team and what do you see? 

[00:03:13] Anna: Well, I think you're right here, because if he's, if you think about it right from the get-go we hire salespeople who are self-reliant self-sufficient self-motivated self-starters. 

[00:03:25] Pia: A lot of selves in there. 

[00:03:27] Anna: Absolutely. And then we give them an individual sales targets, um, and off they go, you know, we look for that drive. We look for grit, we look for that resilience, we look for that competitive spirit. And so if you think about it from a sales perspective, a lot of salespeople are, you know, they liked working with people. They value relationships, but actually the whole condition set of conditions that we set up gears people to work in a very individualist basis. 

[00:03:55] And if I take that, that was not to too much of an extreme, but actually if I'm a sales rep and I've got my individual target, then that's all I'm really focused on because that's all I'm really measured on. So it doesn't really matter to me how well the rest of the team is doing particularly. And, you know, if I'm really competitive, actually it might be to my advantage if they're doing kind of well enough that the whole team isn't under severe scrutiny, But not quite as well as me, because I'm going to be top of the leader boards and I'm going to be winning the bonuses and so on.

[00:04:26] So, you know, I'm painting a bit of a bleak picture because I think salespeople do want to collaborate. They do want to build those relationships with their peers, but very often they're very geographically dispersed. They rarely get together in person. And when they do get together, Um, in sales calls and so on, there's not really a lot of opportunity always built in to really get to know each other and really collaborate.

[00:04:49] So I think you're right here, precisely they are set up to work very individually. And of course the knock-on effect then for the leader is that they're not really managing a team. They're managing a bunch of individuals, all who have their own way of doing things, their own style, but particularly their own language, their own. Often evolved and intuitive way of doing things. And the leader then is having to adapt, not just to individual style. You know, we know that's important, but actually they're trying to manage everybody differently and you know, who are the people that have happier years? And so they need to adjust their sales forecasts kind of down a bit, who are the people that like to sandbag and think, keep things to themselves.

[00:05:31] And then they need to kind of boost them up a bit, you know? So, so, you know, as a sales leader is constantly having to kind of calibrate the team as a bunch of individuals, rather than having either a way of managing them as a team and operating as a team.

[00:05:45] Dan: and I'm sure there are people listening in who would say. Well, it's worked for a long time. You know, I've been in sales for a long time, let's say. And, and that's the way sales is. It's it's about these, um, in, you know, these individuals that it's not call them lone wolves, but these, the sort of people with that individual talent who can work autonomously away from an office and, and deliver results. And why should, why what's the need for change? Do you think what's the, what's the real drive to do something to do it differently?

[00:06:13] Anna: Well, I think you'll, you know, you'll write and, and a lot of things about that do work. But what's changed is really over the last few years, the pace, the complexity, particularly if you're in a complex B2B selling environment, that pace of change, the need to scale, the level of complexity, you know, we know from a lot of research that more and more stakeholders are piling into decisions. so some of the research suggest 6.8 people. But in my anecdotal experience, I would say it's often more than that in a large complex deal. And those deals can take months if not years. So there's a huge amount of complexity. There's lots of moving parts. There's lots of variables and, and that pace and speed of change is picking up all the time.

[00:06:58] So I think you want me to talk about what's changed. Those are the things that have been evolving really over time, which means that companies need to be increasingly adaptable. They need to be able to pivot. COVID shove a spotlight on that need to pivot even more, but I don't think COVID is part of that. But I think, that's brought a lot of those things to attention to think, how do we actually adapt quickly and how do we learn quickly?

[00:07:22] So I think, you know, a lot of companies have brought in a bit of a mantra in their sales teams over a number of years around. Don't lose alone with the idea of you to make sure you bring in the subject experts and the resources and the right people at the right time in the deal.

[00:07:37] So, you know, don't, don't lose a deal on your own because you didn't bring in the right people. So that's kind of a step in the right direction to think about what's the right team around the customer. But I think we can go a step further and actually get sales teams thinking about don't learn alone because that's really what we do as salespeople. We go out, we learn from our experiences. We win a deal. We lose a deal. If we're thoughtful about it, we try and learn from those experiences and replicate what works and don't do the things that don't work. But actually there's not really a, a means for a business.

[00:08:10] Extend that across the whole team. So I don't know for instance, why you want a particular deal or lost a particular deal.

[00:08:18] Um, other than maybe a few snippets that might come up in a sales meeting and certainly, probably not why we lost the deal because nobody really likes talking about that. So I think, you know, what's changing is that need to really understand those things to really get good data around, why are we winning? Why are we losing? Why are we getting started? What do our customers really value in us and our solutions? What do they really want this year, next year? Do we have a common language to take the customer through that buying journey so that we have some consistent data and information that we can then start to draw some insights and some conclusions and some actions from, and if you have everybody working in quite an individual way, you can't learn collectively in a very efficient or effective way, and then you can't implement what you have learnt in a particularly efficient or effective way.

[00:09:06] So in a roundabout way, Dan coming back to your question about what's changed or that, that pace and speed and complexity, I think all then leads to a need to be able to learn and evolve and adapt much quicker. And, you know, we all know that multiple heads can be better than one. So I think, you know, that idea of don't learn alone needs to sit alongside the don't lose alone so that we really build that sort of culture what would be great to see as a real sales team.

[00:09:36] Pia: that learning alone. Is there a little bit of suspicion about sharing your winning strategies with your team? Is, is there a little bit of a, you know, a bit bit concerned about giving the game away or creating internal competition, or losing ground. Like how did team members see each other, within a sales team? 

[00:09:57] Anna: I don't think there's a one size fits all there, to be honest, I think the can be a little bit of that. I think on the flip side, actually, you know, if you've got a win, a lot of salespeople do really like to be able to talk about that. So I think, you know, if you give people the right structure, then you know, they're very open to talking about why they've won and, and what that deal was and, and so it. So my experience actually, most sales people are very happy to talk about their wins with their colleagues. And I think having a structure to talk about it is, can be a bit of a challenge. 

[00:10:29] And I also think sometimes if, if people are working quite intuitive, They actually find it quite hard to be able to express how they want something, because it's not to say they haven't had a sales strategy, although sometimes it might be kind of quite a bit of luck or whatever, but yeah, they can't always work out what actually was the process, what were the key things that made a difference and they might know those instinctively, but actually being able to articulate them to other people can be quite challenging. So I think you'd have given people that again comes back to having some common language and structure and process that you can pinpoint these were the key things that happened along the way that really made the, made the difference for the customer in making their decision to come to us.

[00:11:17] The can sometimes be a bit of that competitive nature of, I don't want to get. Give you the crown jewels or get the game away and, you know, and so on. But I think there's actually a bit less of that these days. Um, in most teams, I think it's more about having the opportunity and the, and the structure, the way of being able to describe it, that allows people to get out the important aspects. I think there's a different matter when you talk about why we lose, because nobody likes to fail and then, you know, to talk about your failure in front of your colleagues harder harder thing. And I think, you know, but I think that's where most people recognizing that that's where the really rich learning comes from because let's stop doing or let's change what we're doing to make sure that we have less of those situations.

[00:12:02] But again, you know, having some common language and having that sort of safe space really to say, we can talk about where we went wrong. Um, I think is really important and that definitely is something a lot of people are kind of reluctant to do. And you know, if you ask most sales leaders, what do people put in the CRM to say, why did we lose the business, a lot of it will say we lost on price and actually very little businesses really lost on price, but it's a lot easier to say, well, we lost it on price then we were outsold by our competitors or we didn't have the right relationships or, you know, we kind of fundamentally missed the customer's primary need or something like that, you know, but actually that's what you want to know.

[00:12:42] Pia: I actually felt quite exhausted when you, when you were giving the outline of, of what a sales manager has to do to manage their team. Sunday's died. Thought it might have to have a bit of a lie down, you know, that all that, that it's almost like a hub and spoke model that one-to-one with each individual, that must be exhausting. for sales managers. And then, But then that brilliant process of keeping in touch with your team, stops them from doing it. Is that. that could get in the way, couldn't it really of sharing because you're sharing with your manager not necessarily sharing with each other. 

[00:13:16] Anna: Yeah. And I think a lot of sales managers do find that quite exhausting and a lot of them tend to have quite big teams and if a company is growing and that team gets bigger and that model doesn't really scale. If you are operating one to one with your team and you're having to adapt and understand each individual, um, you know, those one to ones are, you know, uh, really important you know, we all know that that's critical. But without a structure and a framework and a common language you're right, you know, it's pretty, it is pretty exhausting and it doesn't, it doesn't scale. And they spend a lot of time as you know, as well, looking at the numbers. Uh, some of them are yeah. Player managers as well so in some cases they may still hold onto a few accounts, which I think is, um, it's part of a transition for a lot of businesses, but it's not, definitely not an ideal model for my experience, but they do also get quite heavily involved in quite a lot of the bigger deals, so they can be pretty sleeves rolled up hands-on in deals as well. And so I think for a lot of sales leader, sales manager, No, they do. They either kind of get stuck in the trenches or, you know, they are trying to juggle a lot of different things.

[00:14:27] So I think it is. And I think, you know, again, having consistent common language, having common frameworks and structures, having a structure for the way in which they coach, all of those things help the sales leader. But I think getting away from that hub and spoke is, you know, is a key part of it and, and getting more dialogue going between team members 

[00:14:47] Dan: I've certainly seen this. And one of them, one of the, someone I worked with called these, um, the, the meetings that people have with their managers and their, and their team, the, the sort of public one-on-one and you have that sort of the very hub and spoke thing where someone's talking, but actually they're talking about task aren't they, the sort of very detailed things of what's going on in the accountant actually is not shareable.

[00:15:06] So can you dive a bit deeper and into this idea of. of the common language, what areas of common language can people sort of establish to avoid those? details that we think are important, but aren't worth sharing to, to build that common language out. What w what sort of areas could people look at?

[00:15:24] Anna: So I think there's two things. One is to have a common framework, which is all about what's the, if you take the customer journey. So I'm very heavily into understanding the customer buying journey and following that. So if you take that customer journey, What are the stages that the customer goes through and that should filter then into the CRM, into the pipeline, the stages in there, having a common language around what does each stage actually mean, and what are the exit criteria through which we move a customer for one step. To the next, and that's a critical part for me. It doesn't necessarily have to be the first part because it's quite it's. It can be quite difficult depending on the starting point. But that's really key is to start to get that because once you understand that and you understand it from the customer perspective, because just because you've done a demo or a proposal, or you had a discovery meeting does not move the customer forward in their buying journey only means you've ticked something off in your Salesforce. So, you know, what's the customer done internally to move their decision forward in some way. So, so having some definitions around that is, is one really key thing, because then when you, when you've got a sales person that says my opportunity is in stage three, whatever you call stage three of your pipeline, you have a common understanding of what stage three should look and therefore, as a leader, you've got probably a set of questions that you can ask around. So if we're in stage three, what's happening about this? Have we done that? Has the customer done X, um, what's the next step? And we should know broadly what, at least the customer's next step should be and how we can support that customer to move through those.

[00:17:06] The second part of it then is having some methodology and some language around. around some of that. So how do you define different decision-making roles is a good example and something that I find once companies have that that becomes quite revelationary really, because then you can start to build out stakeholder maps, you kind of understand it when somebody says they're the decision maker. Well, first of all, there's never one, one decision-maker in it in a large complex deal. But does everybody have a common understanding of what it does, how we define what a decision-maker is? And it might sound like a trick question, but actually there's lots of different roles involved and do we have a way of defining them? So I know that if I'm talking to Dan or I'm talking to pier, I know what your roles are in the decision process. So, you know, that's just one example of where that fits, but once you've got that, not only does it make the leader's life a bit easier, but also then you can start to generate better conversations across the team, and you can start to then get some insights because then you can start to say, well, how long do we expect things to stay in our forecast? And, and you could start to look at when we win business, what's the speed at which things move through on average, and therefore you'll always have some outliers, but on average then if things are dwelling in a stage for longer than that amount of time, it doesn't mean it's not going to happen necessarily because you know, different customers are different, but at least we can put a bit of a spotlight on it and ask them questions and figure out, do we really understand where we are, does the customer and just, you know, what what's the customer doing and, and be able to adapt accordingly. So, but without that, It's all a bit sporadic and it's a bit intuitive and so on. 

[00:18:46] I think just coming back to your point about the public one-on-one I love that expression, but you know, that's what a lot of sales meetings are about. 

[00:18:54] Pia: If you had a few of those, Dan? 

[00:18:55] Dan: Yeah, I have actually. Yeah. And I've um, yes, I've even flown around the world to attend them in back in the day. Yeah. It was great. Just sitting there watching other people being reviewed by your boss. Um, yes. So I D definitely related to that when you talked about that hub and spoke idea,

[00:19:11] Anna: Yeah. And I think, you know, that that is typically what, what happens in a lot of sales meetings, you know, the Monday sales call between the team, everybody runs through their forecast and everybody else is probably trying to figure out if they can get away with doing their emails or something else while that's, while the other part, you know, and everybody's just waiting for their turn be holed up to speak. And actually I think, you know, we'll come around. I think some of the things that sales leaders can do, but I think, you know, one of those is really rethinking. How do you turn the sales meeting into something that is much more collaborative, more of a learning and sharing experience, where the sales leader is not the one that's having to drive the whole meeting where people are primed to come in and talk about their wins, their losses. maybe look at a theme, maybe look at a particular competitor, maybe look at a particular value proposition, but actually, you know, rather than talking about what are our forecasts, do that offline, do that separately. Even if you share it around with the team, but actually focusing on, you know, let's talk about a topic that is going to help us all to sell more. And let's delve into that in our sales meeting rather than go round. Virtual table and ask everybody what numbers they're going to close this

[00:20:20] week. 

[00:20:21] Dan: Sort of focusing on. I know it sounds obvious, but focusing on the shared 

[00:20:26] Anna: Exactly. 

[00:20:26] Dan: individual. 

[00:20:27] Anna: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:20:28] exactly. Exactly. 

[00:20:30] Pia: And there's also a bit, I think From you know, what Dr. Jess was talking about last week, you know, if we're scanning for threat, I'm not sure how, you know, how a, how people are feeling in that scenario and B you know, what's the angle they're coming in. Yeah. Is it to share, is it to collaboratively win, or is it to ensure that you get out as unscathed as possible? So, that's a very different proposition, isn't it? You know, and that's uh, if you're looking to get the team to collaborate, you've probably got a you've got to create some shared goals and I've always been surprised working with sales teams, how little there is around shared goals. Uh, much more about how their amalgamation of, of individual goals, which in itself sort of sets the system up to be slightly skewed to individual versus team. 

[00:21:22] Anna: Yeah, I agree and I think one of the things that I've been working with a few companies on recently is that idea of actually as a sales team, you either all succeed or you all fail and, and, and just starting to bring in some sense of shared responsibility so that yes, you're responsible for your own individual target, but actually you are also collectively responsible for the team target.

[00:21:52] Now that there's some sort of challenges because actually what the sales managers targeted on is not probably a hundred percent of the individual, the individuals teams, and you know, so there's a bit of massaging that goes right the way through, because if you set a hundred percent of your sales target, so a hundred percent of the company target, you're relying on everybody making their numbers. So there's a bit of tweaking of numbers in there. But I think if you have as a sales team, a collective responsibility that says, you know, if somebody in our team is not making their numbers, it's on all of us to help them to do it. Then that creates a very different dynamic to where you just worry about your numbers and let everybody else worry about that.

[00:22:33] And that's where that, you know, learning together, sharing, supporting, helping is really critical because. No, everybody's going to make it. Not every salesperson is going to succeed and make their numbers, but you know, more often than not, they're kind of left to their own devices. So I think, you know, creating that environment where actually, if I'm not making my numbers, it's not just on me, I've got help and support from my sales team and it's on them to help me to do that, and vice versa, I think is really critical. And that, you know, that comes back to that hub and spoke and helping sales leaders then to not have it, not all come back on the sales leader to have all of the answers, because they're not the ones that are in the field day in, day out, you know, they, they, they probably know quite a lot, but they definitely don't know at all.

[00:23:16] Dan: It's so interesting. And I think that point about the difference between a shared goal and a goal. That's divided up into individual goals is, is really essential. Actually. I think that that goes beyond sales teams. Doesn't it. You see that in top teams where you've got the, you're the marketing lead, the sales lead, maybe the financially they've all got little bits of their, um, their own goal, but I, and that comes up, they all add up to an organizational goal. Actually there's no, there's not, it's not the same as a shared God, it drives individualism down into the organization, as it does in a sales team. I think it's really, it's a really powerful point for, for all leaders and all teams. I think

[00:23:51] Anna: Yeah. And I think, I think you're right. It's the same, um, maybe driven in a slightly different way, but it's the same. You, you get the same symptoms

[00:23:58] of that siloed individual thinking. Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to join up what I'm doing with what somebody else is doing. Cause that's not my priority. So I think, you know, it's a similar challenge you're right in, in leadership teams, um, and also important to get more of a shared goal there

[00:24:16] too.

[00:24:17] Pia: Yep. 

[00:24:18] Dan: absolutely. 

[00:24:19] Pia: And have you seen it done well, though? Anna, have you gone, have you actually been like, whoa, see, seeing the gold standard and gone, okay. This is What, it could look like. And then have you seen when it's, it's not the gold standard it's it's, uh, you know, when you've got individuals in your experience, what does it look like?

[00:24:40] Anna: I'm not sure that I've seen the gold standard yet, but I have seen companies that work to some shared goals to some shared revenue numbers, and that can work in a couple of different ways. So sometimes you may have a regional team. So this is quite a common model where you have either a regional or a vertically defined team of people, so you may have field sales, internal SDRs BDRs who are all working together and who have a shared goal and different roles in that. And you know, that that's kind of the easy win in a way, because. They do have a shared goal around that particular territory. And in those instances, you do see much more communication, you see much more sharing, they're more attentive to how they record information in the CRM. If they're doing this well, they do have that common, common goal. So I think, you know, that's, that's an easy place for companies to start to really think about what are they doing there.

[00:25:34] and BDRs generally.

[00:25:37] Pia: What's an SBR,

[00:25:39] DBB 

[00:25:39] is that, 

[00:25:39] is rep. 

[00:25:42] not, that's not like a DVD. Just, just to 

[00:25:44] double check there. That's not, 

[00:25:46] Anna: So, so these are the guys that are typically tasked with, um, setting up the appointments, uh, okay. those, early calls, whether they're inbound or outbound, but they're, they're the ones that are generating the early opportunities, the early leads, and then bringing in

[00:26:00] The more experienced the field sales or the account, the account reps. And so those tend to be quite young, quite dynamic teams. Um, and the does tend to be quite good camaraderie amongst those because although they have their own individual targets in terms of how many, how many appointments they're expected to set or how many opportunities are expected to find in whatever form, um, those, those teams tend to also work in a more collaborative way because they're listening into each other, they want to learn. Um, they struggled probably a bit more in the virtual world than maybe some of the other, um, you know, some of those, some of the field reps, but I think, you know, in those instances it works well. 

[00:26:36] I have also seen teams that don't pay a standard commission, and are not set up in that same way, and that again, tends to lead it when it works well to. To more of a focus on the customer and customer needs and doing the right thing for the customer, rather than thinking about a flog them something. Cause I've got to make my numbers, you've got to balance that out with enough hunger and drive to do it, but done well that then also creates more of a sense of, I want to share with other people and learn with other people. But I think it's, you've got to give people the structure. I don't think it happens organically just because. Of the human desire to do it. I think you have to give people a format and a way of doing it in a way of learning from each other., but I think, you know, when that happens, There is much more of a sense of collaboration and I've learned something and I'm going to share it with you, or I'm going to ask you how you get known and if I can help you with something, and I'm much more of a sense in team meetings of what have we learned this week, what can we share? What's working, what's not working and therefore that more openness to say, I'm stuck of, I've got this opportunity and it's not going anywhere, you know, I don't quite know what I should do about it. Can you help me to do it to do something? But again, I think, you know, that requires a bit of coaching and learning to understand how to ask for the right help as well.

[00:27:53] Um, but you know, teams that have done well, that, that happens in, in th in the opposite. You know, we talked about the lone wolf, they just don't happen. People come to those public, one to ones. They are trying to look good. Trying to come out unscathed. Don't want to show any vulnerability, don't want to show any weakness, don't want to take any responsibility for things that haven't gone right because that might all come back and make them look bad.

[00:28:19] I have come across those sorts of teams, but they're pretty few and far between on the whole, because most people are sort of sitting somewhere in the middle of that, I would say.

[00:28:26] Dan: Um, and like all teams, it sounds like it's the, the, the environment that people are put in, in these teams, it's easy to sort of say ourselves, people like this, but actually that if you put them in the right environment, they are going to perform in the right way. And they're currently, they're all doing, what's been asked of them, as you say, they're being given individual targets, they've been hired to do these things.

[00:28:43] So I guess the question of making sure the conditions around them are, uh, right. So, um, yeah, really interesting. Um, just quick. sort of comment if he could on how has all this been impacted by, um, suppose COVID but more broadly the move to more remote working across the world. I suppose sales teams are a bit different in this respect.

[00:29:05] Anna: Yeah, I think so. I mentioned SDRs and BDRs who are more desk-based than traditionally more office based. And their experience of remote working has probably been similar to most other office workers. I suspect that adaptation, but I think for, for most. Reps, they will probably remotely based at any way, and for them, it's the issue about not being able to go into the office is not really the issue it's about not being able to go into the customer's office that's the issue and not being able to meet their customers face to face. That's the challenge.

[00:29:36] Again, it's. One size fits all, some particularly global account managers or those, you know, with large territories are probably much more used to working remotely and having virtual meetings with their, with their customers pre COVID. Um, certainly that's been my experience working internationally for a number of years. I think the majority of my clients, I haven't actually met in person before we start working together pre COVID.

[00:29:59] But I think it has shown up quite a number of gaps. So I think one of the things that it's highlighted is in some cases, an over-reliance on rapport building and the personal relationships, and those are that's really important. But to me, you know, those relationships grease and oil, the wheels, they're not the engine that's going to drive a company's buying decision. They're going to buy something. That's going to do something for their business. And, you know, if you think that there are multiple stakeholders, Just because a couple of those really like the sales rep is not going to be compelling enough to do the business.

[00:30:37] So when we talk about why what's changed and I talked about that complexity question, I've quite often asked reps over the last few years is how often have you had a conversation with them? You know, one of your customers that you've got a good relationship with. And they said, well, you know, if it was just down to me, I'd buy from you, but it's not just down to me, we're not going to buy it from you. And you've lost business, and pretty much everybody will put up their hand even if a bit sheepishly, but that's the reality. So I think. What the remote working has highlighted is in some cases, an over dependency on that and not enough understanding of what's the customer what's, what are the customer's real needs? What do they really value in us? What are they going to want from us? And so in a lot of conversations I've had have been, how do we get better at that discovery process? How do we get better to really understand the needs of the customer? And so that we can then articulate better our value to them and the rapport and the relationships, yes, there'll be some personal relationships, but actually the real rapport and the real relationship comes out of the value that you're bringing to them personally and collectively as a company that builds over time, rather than thinking I've got to go in and build rapport first, and then we can talk business, actually, I think in the virtual working world, And that fast pace means most companies want to know what can you, what can you do for us? And if you can do something for us, then let's talk and let's get to know each other better rather than let's get to know each other and then figure out if there's some business to do. 

[00:32:08] But I think that's a, it's an important adaptation because actually understanding what your value is and understanding your customer and their needs deeply is to me critically important. So, you know, it highlights something that I think we, we need to be doing more.

[00:32:23] Pia: And it's Interesting. because some of the organizations that I come across, people have different sales roles and then they get paid in different ways and that then causes the behavior to become even more competitive even though they're part of the same, same company. And the poor customer feels like they're in a Parata tank because everyone was actually trying to. a bit of them. And I would imagine that in a virtual working world, that would, that would feel quite painful. You could almost lose the customer because you haven't coordinated that end to end experience for them, you know, in everyone's sort of overenthusiasm to serve them, they can feel stripped back uh, by the process you know, it would be, that would be pretty tough.

[00:33:06] Anna: It's a really interesting point because I think specialization is something that a lot of companies are looking for, particularly as companies that are scaling. So you're right. You know, if you take the customer journey, it starts with, from a selling perspective, it starts with marketing and it moves through potentially those SDR BDR kind of role setting things up, it moves into an account exec pass. There is some overlap. Product or technology specialists that the company has quite a complex portfolio. So they didn't call a lot of people there. And then at the point of sale it hands over maybe to some customer success or implementation teams or adoption teams. there were support teams in there as well, and maybe some account managers, maybe some service delivery managers, you know, you've got this, you have got a lot of people potentially serving that customer and it can be it it's confusing on both sides, I think sometimes. So I think we're talking here about sales teams, but actually there was a much bigger picture around that cross function working and joining up all those steps through the customer buying journey. And I think key to it is having some really clear processes, having some really clear handover points that are not a chocolate over the fence, 

[00:34:22] Pia: hot potato. That's yours.

[00:34:24] Anna: Yeah, right. I'm the sales rep. I've got the deal right now. I'm handing it over to the implementation team, the adoption team, customer success team, whatever, whatever my process is. So here's the deal off you go. And then that sec, that next team has to kind of basically go back and reinvent the wheel because I'm thinking who are the people and who's involved here. They're probably dealing with a slightly different set of people as well, or different. The roles have shifted once the customers into an implementation phase, but you're right. So often it is like the hot potato. It just gets chucked over the fence or sales reps onto the next thing, customer success, or trying to pick it up and run with it. And then, you know, at some point it goes into a renewal process or, or whatever, and the same thing happens. So having those really clear handover points that are, that are to my mind, a good practice practices to overlap those.

[00:35:10] So, you know, bringing in the next team before they're actually needed. So at whatever stage that is, but, you know, particularly at the point of the customer, But the prospect becoming a customer, making sure that maybe you're introducing those, those sort of in life teams earlier, and that, you know, that could be a part of how you win the business because. Put forward is really great team. That's going to look after the customer, but they're really clear about those different roles and, and building up the right relationships. And the right processes is really important. And I think it's as companies scale, it's definitely something that starts to hurt and they, they put more attention into what does that really need to look like and what are the right processes to take the customer through that entire life cycle and maintain, you know, maintain, retain, and grow them, which is, which is key.

[00:35:57] Pia: So you, you really got to think about the business, not just the product that you are, that you, that you're selling. I mean, it's really important that you planned for that, if that broader experience, the, all those interaction points, how you're going to coordinate that as a team, you've got to be that's teamwork. That's not individuals just selling their where they're where's that that's a different approach. 

[00:36:23] Anna: Absolutely. And, and that comes back to what we were talking about in terms of that complexity in the world. That's the only way that you can look after a customer these days is by being very joined up about it, right. The way through their experience.

[00:36:35] Dan: And you've shared so much with us. There's a lot of richness there for people to digest a kid. You slightly unfair question, but can you leave us with a takeaway? I'm not talking about a pizza or a Chinese, don't worry. Um, but, uh, but some sort of takeaways that we, you would just, what could people sort of, how would you extract the goodness out of this and just leave us with a few key points?

[00:36:56] Anna: So I think I break it down really briefly into things that are sales. And ad sales teams can do within broadly within their own control. And then a couple of things that they can influence that might take a little bit longer. So I think three things that they could start doing right now is first of all, changing those team meeting formats from the public one-to-one to being about, team topics, as I talked about. So not just about the figures, but let's pick a team, let's pick an opportunity, let's pick a, win a loss and dive into together.

[00:37:31] Second thing is just on that is actually doing win-loss analysis, getting a structure for win-loss analysis, doing that, particularly the losses, and maybe even just budding people up so it becomes a shared approach. So, you know, rather than. Fill out this form and stick it on the system, but actually maybe buddy people up to go through it and then share that at the sales meeting.

[00:37:51] And then I think the third thing is having this shared sense of shared responsibility of if somebody in our team is not succeeding is on us to help them collectively.

[00:38:01] The next steps to that are I think reflecting that in team bonuses or commission rates and in the compensation plans in some way, so that you're rewarding team behaviors, right? Individual targets, um, and building out that common language and that common framework I think is really critical. Um, you know, it doesn't have to be a kind of big bang thing.

[00:38:24] You know, you can do it step by step to break it down, to make it easier. But I think really putting some focus on what's the framework, what's the language that then gives you the mechanism. As I talk about it, to give consistency a common language without cramping, individual personality and style.

[00:38:42] Dan: Well, you've left us on a high that you've almost summarized what it is to work in a team. And the sales teams are clearly a sort of high pressure version of that. So and you've shared so many great things today. I'm thrilled to be really practical for our listener. So thank you so much for joining us on we, not me.

[00:38:58] Anna: Oh, you're very welcome. It's been a, it's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed it as always talking with the two of you.

[00:39:03] Dan: Great, lovely to see you. Uh,

[00:39:05] European. I love the way Anna really nailed those takeaways there. They were so succinct and useful. What, what did you, uh, what did you take away from the takeaways, 

[00:39:15] Pia: Oh, yummy. Yum. Um, they were, they were incredible because she just nailed it right at the very end. But, and when I was listening to her five or six points at the end, actually this isn't just about sales teams. This is about all teams. It's about the, the nature. She talks about change the format from one-to-one. So I think this hub and spoke model is, is more endemic than we might like to think. And when I think about managers and team leaders, there must be a high level of exhaust. And, and time spent having these one-to-one, which I'm not saying they're not fallible, but they're, they're just one mode of communication. It's really being thoughtful about how do I want to set this up so that I am not the central point of either success or failure. But the, the team rallies round. So I've, I've got to think a little bit about how to do that differently as a team leader. So I thought her point around that, and you, you know, you're, you've still got some scar tissues about some 

[00:40:26] public one-to-one obviously 

[00:40:27] Dan: Yeah, but I mean, joking aside, when you get people together and they are talking about, you know, the detail of what's exactly going on in their business with their customers, And it's stuff that's genuinely not real. It's very hard to sort of, it's like gold panning trying to find so something that you can, there's a relevance to you that you can learn from that and you zone out and you have sort of 10 people sit around the table and two people talking. And so, yeah, that, that probably one-on-one is a, is, is, is not great. Not great.

[00:40:57] I think P this is sort of, to me slightly stems, a lot of this stems from actually the goals that, that. You know that we'd do it. That was a really good part of the conversation for me is how the difference in a shared goal and sort of divvying up a goal if you like.

[00:41:13] Pia: Well, we talk about it, but is it, is it easy to put into practice? Does it ever 

[00:41:17] work? look, I, I think, I think it can actually, and I was, um, uh, one of my roles, um, the CEO arrived and the, all the salespeople had a hundred percent commissions were individual. So each person did you hit your goal? Yes. That's your, what he did was he played with that sort of move the slider. If you like and said an added a team goal you know, you'll get a percentage of your bonus based on whether the team succeeds, he upped and upped and up the number. And it was only when he got to 60% group goal team goal and 40% individual that the collaboration really started. So I thought I was really insightful and actually ourselves sales performance did improve after that. When they started to take a more a more group, more TIMI, um, approach to it.

[00:42:03] And did that take a long time?

[00:42:05] Dan: It did take a long time. And to be honest, there was some resistance because of course, people have been raised to sort of focus on their individual performance would be rewarded for that. And I think, zooming out, thinking about teams in general, I realized listening to Anna as well, that we talk about the conditions for team success, being clarity, climates, and competence, and, it's easy to blame the sales people for their competence in being individualistic. But in reality, they've been set up to do that as, as Anna said, that we hired. For that F it was individuals. We, we have one-on-ones with them. We set them individual goals, whereas actually clarity And climate, as in clarity, having an actual shared goal, is essential. And then the climate, we talked a lot about that, the common language and the sort of shared processes and so on, and the safety in that team, it's really something that sales leaders can focus on. But yeah. All leaders can focus on to say, actually, how do I move away from that individual focus on individual competence actually create the conditions in which people can work as a team better. 

[00:43:08] Pia: And I think that is so true that we set challenges for, for teams and team leaders. And then we sometimes become myopic. We're grasping at it and it's what we totally focus on. And we forget that there's broader conditions and then it can make us feel stressed. We've got all this workplace loneliness, it can make us feel unsatisfied. Whereas now it is that zooming out. And that is a leadership moment. That is a leadership moment for, for all leaders to go, how do I set these right conditions up from, for my team that is going to achieve that outcome. And it is a better together. It is better together than prosecuting individuals for potential failures, that's not going to end up very well at 

[00:43:54] all. 

[00:43:54] Dan: indeed. Indeed. And yeah, as you say, the fragmentation that's 

[00:43:58] Pia: Um, 

[00:43:58] Dan: the potential and the loneliness that that can lead to can, can lead to longer term issues as well. So yeah, really great stuff. And, um, and I think as you say her takeaways were, Um, I think people can, any team leader can learn from those.

[00:44:11] Pia: So where does that lead us then for next week? We're scooting along these episodes. Aren't we? So actually there's a good little segue there because next week we're going to be talking about clarity at speed. And we're going to be meeting Todd Schroeder from Google, where they're in massive growth. How, what is, what does clarity mean when you are changing all the time and growing at such pace? It'll be a really interesting conversation to say how you can do that, what that condition means in this complex and fast moving world.

[00:44:40] Todd's got a wealth of knowledge, I can't wait to ask lots of interesting questions about, about that, and really get to get under the hood of that

[00:44:48] topic. 

[00:44:49] Dan: having talked to him a little bit about this already. He is, he's got some quite some views, little challenge convention, I think. So. I hope our listener really enjoys that. 

[00:44:57] Well, that's it. For this episode, pier, you can find show notes and resources@spotify.net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share. And recommend it to your friends.

[00:45:10] We, not me. It's produced by Mark Steadman of origin.fm. Uh, thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me. 

[00:45:18] Pia: And goodbye from me.