WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:05.370 Matt Abrahams: Many of us are searching for the meaning of life, 00:00:05.820 --> 00:00:08.160 but what is the meaning of meaning? 00:00:08.670 --> 00:00:11.700 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:11.700 --> 00:00:13.560 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:17.115 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.595 --> 00:00:20.775 Today, I'm thrilled to be rejoined by Arthur Brooks of 00:00:20.775 --> 00:00:21.884 Harvard's Business School. 00:00:22.275 --> 00:00:26.595 Arthur studies and teaches courses on leadership, wellbeing, and happiness. 00:00:26.805 --> 00:00:30.225 He has authored numerous books, including Building the Life You Want: 00:00:30.225 --> 00:00:34.364 The Art and Science of Getting Happier with Oprah Winfrey, and he has his 00:00:34.364 --> 00:00:38.475 own podcast, which I really enjoy, called Office Hours with Arthur Brooks. 00:00:38.925 --> 00:00:41.595 Arthur's newest book is The Meaning of Your Life. 00:00:42.230 --> 00:00:43.040 Welcome, Arthur. 00:00:43.070 --> 00:00:44.985 I'm really glad to be talking with you once again. 00:00:45.660 --> 00:00:48.420 Congrats on your new book and on your podcast. 00:00:48.660 --> 00:00:51.750 I and our listeners have benefited from our first conversation. 00:00:51.750 --> 00:00:53.010 I look forward to the second one. 00:00:53.250 --> 00:00:53.879 Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt. 00:00:53.879 --> 00:00:55.560 It's wonderful to be back on the show. 00:00:55.739 --> 00:00:56.010 Matt Abrahams: Thanks. 00:00:56.010 --> 00:00:56.790 Shall we get started? 00:00:56.970 --> 00:00:57.839 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, let's do that. 00:00:58.110 --> 00:01:01.050 Matt Abrahams: A lot of your work focuses on helping strivers, of 00:01:01.050 --> 00:01:03.390 which I am an A plus specimen. 00:01:03.629 --> 00:01:07.950 Can you start by defining what you mean by a striver and why folks 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:11.220 like me struggle with things like fulfillment, meaning, happiness? 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:14.370 Arthur Brooks: The, a word that has entered the American lexicon 00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:16.080 over the past 10 years is slacker. 00:01:16.350 --> 00:01:19.050 People hear about slackers, you know, and everybody worries about 00:01:19.050 --> 00:01:23.130 their adult kids slacking and living forever in the basement and all that. 00:01:23.130 --> 00:01:24.480 And I got that. 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:26.340 But that's actually not the biggest problem that I see. 00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:29.250 I mean, I teach at a fancy business school like you, and we don't, there's 00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:32.580 no slackers at the Graduate School of Business at Stanford or the Harvard 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:33.930 Business School, there's no slackers. 00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:38.550 And what I came to understand is that to not be a slacker isn't enough. 00:01:38.970 --> 00:01:42.570 On the contrary, I see a different kind of pathology among my students 00:01:42.570 --> 00:01:47.100 who are just absolutely addicted to success, very, very afraid of failure. 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:49.920 They have a propensity toward workaholism, and that's what 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.539 I call the striver syndrome. 00:01:51.929 --> 00:01:54.690 And so when I say striver, I say with a certain amount of admiration. 00:01:54.690 --> 00:01:58.630 But I also understand that for you and me, as senior striver's, and 00:01:58.630 --> 00:02:01.795 the junior strivers that we teach, it's not always an easy life. 00:02:01.825 --> 00:02:04.225 It's actually not the best way to live necessarily. 00:02:04.225 --> 00:02:07.225 And part of the reason is because happiness, which is, we've talked 00:02:07.225 --> 00:02:10.914 about before, is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. 00:02:11.185 --> 00:02:14.695 For strivers, the enjoyment of life can be really quite low. 00:02:14.905 --> 00:02:18.835 Satisfaction with accomplishments is through the roof, but enjoyment can 00:02:18.835 --> 00:02:22.615 be really quite low and they don't understand how to pursue proper leisure. 00:02:22.825 --> 00:02:24.715 They often marginalize relationships. 00:02:24.715 --> 00:02:28.085 And so I have to talk to strive about how to learn how to be fully 00:02:28.085 --> 00:02:30.085 alive, how to be happier people. 00:02:30.225 --> 00:02:32.165 That's why I specialize, I'm the striver whisperer. 00:02:32.555 --> 00:02:33.095 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:02:33.185 --> 00:02:36.185 And I appreciate being called a senior striver because you're right. 00:02:36.185 --> 00:02:40.115 My students, I see them on the same path that I'm on, and I'm trying to 00:02:40.115 --> 00:02:43.835 encourage them to take time, to smell the roses, to connect with people. 00:02:43.985 --> 00:02:46.265 And yet, for me personally, it's so hard to do. 00:02:46.665 --> 00:02:50.085 Let's take a step back and ground ourselves in the terms that we're using. 00:02:50.085 --> 00:02:53.535 When you were previously on, you defined what you mean by meaning. 00:02:53.835 --> 00:02:56.985 Can you remind us of the three components of meaning, and then you 00:02:56.985 --> 00:03:00.435 added, in this new book, this notion of presence and searching, and I'm 00:03:00.435 --> 00:03:02.990 hoping you can help us understand how those fit into the equation. 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:04.520 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, for sure. 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.910 So psychologists, and philosophers for that matter, they really break 00:03:08.030 --> 00:03:10.220 meaning into three deep questions. 00:03:10.250 --> 00:03:13.640 The what is the meaning of life is really three why questions of life. 00:03:13.640 --> 00:03:18.140 Number one is why do things happen the way they do, which is the idea of coherence. 00:03:18.380 --> 00:03:21.680 You have to have a concept of why things are actually happening around you. 00:03:22.100 --> 00:03:24.690 Some people, their sense of coherence comes from their religious faith. 00:03:25.325 --> 00:03:27.335 Some people it comes from science. 00:03:27.695 --> 00:03:31.775 I personally am a traditionally religious person and I'm a scientist, so great. 00:03:31.775 --> 00:03:32.855 And as was my dad. 00:03:32.855 --> 00:03:34.655 My dad was a PhD biostatistician. 00:03:35.015 --> 00:03:38.375 He thought that God created the distribution of events. 00:03:38.645 --> 00:03:41.105 I asked him one time, I said, dad, what are miracles? 00:03:41.105 --> 00:03:42.995 And he said, long tail events. 00:03:43.235 --> 00:03:45.935 'Cause he thought that God created randomness, which is one of the beautiful 00:03:45.935 --> 00:03:47.050 things about the universe, he thought. 00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:50.989 The second part of meaning is purpose, and purpose and 00:03:50.989 --> 00:03:52.010 meaning are not the same thing. 00:03:52.010 --> 00:03:53.869 We use them interchangeably, but that's not right. 00:03:53.899 --> 00:03:57.500 Purpose is a sub component of meaning, which is goals and direction. 00:03:57.799 --> 00:04:00.255 It's the question, why am I doing what I'm doing? 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.820 Where am I going with my life? 00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:04.530 And you have to have an answer to that. 00:04:04.530 --> 00:04:06.390 If you don't, then you're just going in circles. 00:04:06.420 --> 00:04:08.880 You're wasting your time, you're frittering away your time. 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:12.630 Which is why leisure, properly understood, is so critically important because 00:04:12.630 --> 00:04:16.769 you're just sitting on a beach and chilling or getting drunk or scrolling. 00:04:16.769 --> 00:04:18.000 TikTok reels. 00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:20.010 That means there's no purpose. 00:04:20.334 --> 00:04:23.635 The reason it makes you depressed is because it gives you a sense 00:04:23.635 --> 00:04:26.065 of purposelessness, which takes away your sense of meaning. 00:04:26.425 --> 00:04:29.665 The third part is significance, which is like, why does my life matter? 00:04:29.995 --> 00:04:31.495 To whom does my life matter? 00:04:31.555 --> 00:04:34.915 And if you don't know, or there is nobody for whom your life matters, 00:04:34.915 --> 00:04:38.515 you're gonna feel insignificant, and that's gonna make you feel horrible. 00:04:38.515 --> 00:04:42.835 It's gonna make you feel completely bereft of meaning, which is why people need love. 00:04:43.010 --> 00:04:46.099 People need love so much because they need to answer the significance 00:04:46.099 --> 00:04:48.469 question and significance question is really part of meaning. 00:04:48.980 --> 00:04:52.159 Okay, then the next part that you asked about is how do you measure this? 00:04:52.460 --> 00:04:56.420 In this case, there's really interesting measurements to break the search for 00:04:56.420 --> 00:05:00.880 meaning into two parts, how actively you are at searching for it and how 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:02.975 successful you've been in finding it. 00:05:03.215 --> 00:05:05.555 So the first part is literally called search, and the second 00:05:05.555 --> 00:05:06.605 part is called presence. 00:05:06.605 --> 00:05:10.355 And you know, based on a bunch of very well validated, scientifically constructed 00:05:10.355 --> 00:05:13.895 survey, which is in the book by the way, and on my website, people can find 00:05:13.895 --> 00:05:17.795 out how actively they're searching and whether they've been successful in finding 00:05:17.795 --> 00:05:19.295 the presence of meaning in their lives. 00:05:19.295 --> 00:05:20.945 And they can actually get a score on that. 00:05:20.945 --> 00:05:23.285 And I can tell a lot about a person on the basis of this. 00:05:23.495 --> 00:05:25.625 And so what I find that I've got a pretty good sense of 00:05:25.625 --> 00:05:27.215 presence of meaning in my life. 00:05:27.215 --> 00:05:28.355 I should, I'm 61. 00:05:28.615 --> 00:05:32.635 But I'm super high in search, which is why I'm a behavioral scientist because 00:05:32.635 --> 00:05:35.575 I'm always looking about what could be actually better out there, which 00:05:35.575 --> 00:05:38.935 is not necessarily the most optimal way to live, but everybody who reads 00:05:38.935 --> 00:05:43.215 this book, they'll know what meaning is and where they are in their search. 00:05:43.605 --> 00:05:46.680 And that's really important because if you're looking for anything in life, 00:05:46.830 --> 00:05:51.240 if you're looking for California, you better know what California is and 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.120 you better know where you are right now or you're not gonna get there. 00:05:54.599 --> 00:05:58.680 Matt Abrahams: So the presence and search anchor you where you are 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.070 today, but serve to motivate you for where you can be in the future. 00:06:02.410 --> 00:06:03.130 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:06:03.130 --> 00:06:05.590 So a lot of people that'll find that they're seeking, seeking, 00:06:05.590 --> 00:06:09.070 seeking, seeking, but their presence is really low, which is why they 00:06:09.070 --> 00:06:10.330 feel that they're at loose ends. 00:06:10.540 --> 00:06:14.380 Other people, they find out that the problem is that they've been scrolling and 00:06:14.380 --> 00:06:18.340 drinking and playing video games, and that doesn't count as seeking as it turns out. 00:06:18.340 --> 00:06:21.220 And once they understand that, boy, oh boy, it can be a real game changer 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:22.420 for how they're spending their time. 00:06:22.830 --> 00:06:25.650 Matt Abrahams: I think a lot of the value of the work that social scientists 00:06:25.650 --> 00:06:29.580 do is help people understand where they are so that they can then move 00:06:29.580 --> 00:06:31.260 forward and change as they need it. 00:06:31.950 --> 00:06:35.160 So meaning is coherence, purpose, and significance. 00:06:35.430 --> 00:06:39.210 You distinguish between the me self and I self. 00:06:39.650 --> 00:06:43.940 What is the difference between these two and how do we move from one to the other? 00:06:43.940 --> 00:06:45.740 I found this distinction really fascinating. 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:48.110 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, no, that actually comes from the work of William James, 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:49.520 the father of modern psychology. 00:06:49.670 --> 00:06:52.550 What William James talked about, and this is one of the ways, a little bit 00:06:52.550 --> 00:06:55.130 further down in the book, about actually how to find the meaning of your life, 00:06:55.400 --> 00:06:59.150 is to get out of the concentration on yourself, which is the me self, 00:06:59.450 --> 00:07:02.810 and getting interested in the outside world, which is observation of the 00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:04.790 outside world, also known as the I self. 00:07:04.790 --> 00:07:08.234 And William James correctly pointed out that you're two people. 00:07:08.445 --> 00:07:10.815 You're somebody who's looking out and you're somebody who's 00:07:10.815 --> 00:07:11.865 looking in at the same time. 00:07:12.044 --> 00:07:14.895 We're the only species really able to do this because we're the only 00:07:14.895 --> 00:07:16.815 species that's truly self-conscious. 00:07:16.875 --> 00:07:21.135 That's why homo sapiens, with its enormous prefrontal cortex, 30% of our 00:07:21.135 --> 00:07:25.215 brain by weight actually can achieve consciousness in a meaningful way. 00:07:25.395 --> 00:07:29.414 And that consciousness is the blessing of maybe knowing the divine and the 00:07:29.414 --> 00:07:31.484 curse of deeply knowing yourself. 00:07:31.575 --> 00:07:33.620 Your golden retriever doesn't know it's alive. 00:07:34.150 --> 00:07:35.770 Doesn't know it's going to die. 00:07:35.980 --> 00:07:39.010 Doesn't really know anything about tomorrow because it doesn't have 00:07:39.010 --> 00:07:42.280 anything really except the I self and all the ways that it looks like 00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:46.180 it's self-conscious and behaving neurotically, that's just a simulation. 00:07:46.390 --> 00:07:49.510 It's just figured out that you're gonna be nicer to it if it acts a particular 00:07:49.510 --> 00:07:50.890 way, and maybe you'll give 'em a treat. 00:07:51.140 --> 00:07:52.100 It's what it comes down to. 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:54.890 But the fact is that most other animals, they only have the I self. 00:07:54.890 --> 00:07:57.800 And that's, by the way, the other reason that your golden retriever is happier 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.010 than you is because it doesn't have any me self, it's not self-conscious. 00:08:01.010 --> 00:08:02.330 It's not thinking about itself. 00:08:02.330 --> 00:08:03.560 There's no social comparison. 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:04.490 It's like, yeah, I don't know. 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:07.310 I have a shorter tail to the golden retriever next door. 00:08:07.400 --> 00:08:10.340 It just doesn't care is what it comes down to. 00:08:10.669 --> 00:08:14.929 So we need to be more like the golden retriever and spend more time in the I 00:08:14.929 --> 00:08:17.270 self, but we have to do that on purpose. 00:08:17.270 --> 00:08:22.729 And in so doing, looking out, experiencing the world, getting out of our heads, at 00:08:22.729 --> 00:08:26.810 getting out of this self-consciousness, then we're in the right hemisphere 00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:29.900 of our brain and then we start to think about questions of meaning, 00:08:29.989 --> 00:08:31.489 and life just feels more meaningful. 00:08:31.700 --> 00:08:33.350 Matt Abrahams: So what drives us to the I self? 00:08:33.350 --> 00:08:34.819 Is it curiosity? 00:08:34.970 --> 00:08:36.890 What's the pull away from the me self? 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.490 Arthur Brooks: The pull away from the me self, generally speaking 00:08:39.490 --> 00:08:41.140 is what we call transcendence. 00:08:41.410 --> 00:08:45.370 And transcendence means transcending yourself either upward, toward the 00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:51.760 divine or toward greater knowledge, awe, music, beauty, or transcending 00:08:51.760 --> 00:08:54.730 yourself by serving other people, which is a really important thing. 00:08:54.875 --> 00:08:59.045 And you know, one the best ways to stop being miserable and to find 00:08:59.045 --> 00:09:01.505 more meaning is to go serve somebody. 00:09:01.625 --> 00:09:04.475 Matt Abrahams: So it's really thinking about getting outside of yourself through 00:09:04.475 --> 00:09:07.925 transcendence upward, or, I like how you said, you know, with those around you. 00:09:08.135 --> 00:09:10.475 Arthur Brooks: We'll call it vertical and lateral transcendence, 00:09:10.475 --> 00:09:11.375 there are different ways to do it. 00:09:11.569 --> 00:09:16.490 So transcendence is one of the great and ancient techniques of finding meaning. 00:09:16.520 --> 00:09:20.780 And the reason that we now know is because it intensely places you in the 00:09:20.780 --> 00:09:23.870 right hemisphere of your brain where questions of meaning can be adjudicated. 00:09:24.140 --> 00:09:27.410 Matt Abrahams: So that's why meditation, religion, 00:09:27.470 --> 00:09:29.510 Arthur Brooks: Prayer, worship, totally. 00:09:29.510 --> 00:09:33.080 Philosophy, studying the stoic philosophers with great seriousness. 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:33.800 This does it. 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:37.910 The brahma muhurta, waking up before dawn and walking without devices. 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:40.640 Why studying the works of Johann Sebastian Bach. 00:09:40.895 --> 00:09:42.605 Standing in awe of nature. 00:09:42.695 --> 00:09:44.975 These are different ways for you actually to transcend. 00:09:45.329 --> 00:09:49.260 Matt Abrahams: All of those require a quieting and slowing down as well. 00:09:49.530 --> 00:09:49.890 Arthur Brooks: For sure. 00:09:49.890 --> 00:09:52.050 And the way that you quiet and slow down is stop looking in the mirror. 00:09:52.170 --> 00:09:54.089 And the devices are nothing more than mirrors. 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.010 Mirrors are a reflection of the self. 00:09:56.010 --> 00:09:57.329 They're me self devices. 00:09:57.329 --> 00:10:00.060 And by the way, literally one of the things that I recommend to 00:10:00.060 --> 00:10:04.140 people, don't look at yourself in the mirror at all until noon. 00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:05.880 Not one time until noon. 00:10:06.270 --> 00:10:09.150 And the truth is everybody does this, but there's a lot of research on the 00:10:09.150 --> 00:10:11.340 fact that the more you look in the mirror, the more miserable you get 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:13.080 because you're most aware of your flaws. 00:10:13.319 --> 00:10:16.830 The truth is that almost nobody really needs to look in the mirror before they 00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:19.260 go out, and it's like no one cares. 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:25.439 And the less that you do actually use the physical methods for engaging intensely 00:10:25.439 --> 00:10:28.260 in the me self, the more you'll be in the I self and the happier you'll be, 00:10:28.260 --> 00:10:30.060 especially in the early hours of the day. 00:10:30.325 --> 00:10:33.265 Matt Abrahams: Right, and I think we also all need to turn off that self view and 00:10:33.265 --> 00:10:35.665 all the remote virtual tools that we use. 00:10:35.725 --> 00:10:36.355 Arthur Brooks: Oh, totally. 00:10:36.865 --> 00:10:41.305 Matt Abrahams: You talk about this idea of proxy goals and the value that they serve. 00:10:41.395 --> 00:10:44.605 What are proxy goals and why should we keep them in mind? 00:10:44.635 --> 00:10:48.985 The one that really resonated with me is it's about you and not how others see you. 00:10:49.195 --> 00:10:49.675 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah. 00:10:49.675 --> 00:10:50.215 That's right. 00:10:50.215 --> 00:10:51.685 That's a, and it's about you. 00:10:51.685 --> 00:10:54.145 That's, you need intrinsic goals, not the extrinsic goals 00:10:54.145 --> 00:10:55.105 of how other people see you. 00:10:55.105 --> 00:10:56.575 So proxy goals are funny. 00:10:56.575 --> 00:10:58.975 I mean, we're recording this right before Christmas. 00:10:59.135 --> 00:11:02.705 But I know it's gonna be played later, but it's on my mind 'cause Christmas 00:11:02.705 --> 00:11:06.035 is coming up and you know, the ancient tradition of the three wise men. 00:11:06.245 --> 00:11:09.605 And the three wise men, what they were looking for in the ancient story, whether 00:11:09.605 --> 00:11:12.305 people are religious or not, they all know the story, they were looking for the 00:11:12.305 --> 00:11:14.074 baby Jesus and the state in Bethlehem. 00:11:14.225 --> 00:11:15.185 But they couldn't see him. 00:11:15.215 --> 00:11:18.035 They needed something that would actually indicate that he was there 00:11:18.035 --> 00:11:19.484 and that was the star of Bethlehem. 00:11:19.805 --> 00:11:23.195 Keep going for the star and you'll find the baby underneath the star. 00:11:23.255 --> 00:11:24.665 That's what they had been told, right? 00:11:24.995 --> 00:11:27.005 The star was not what they wanted. 00:11:27.035 --> 00:11:32.045 That was a proxy goal and almost all of the big complex meaning filled 00:11:32.045 --> 00:11:33.755 things in life you can't see 'em. 00:11:33.935 --> 00:11:35.135 You can't see 'em directly. 00:11:35.135 --> 00:11:38.495 You can just perceive them and you believe that they're there, which 00:11:38.525 --> 00:11:40.385 means you gotta get proxy goals. 00:11:40.385 --> 00:11:42.605 If you wanna find meaning, you have to have proxy goals and 00:11:42.605 --> 00:11:44.555 you better choose good proxies. 00:11:44.705 --> 00:11:49.165 A big problem that people have, especially our beloved strivers, is that they have 00:11:49.165 --> 00:11:56.095 horrible proxies, money, power, pleasure, fame, Instagram followers, prestige. 00:11:56.275 --> 00:11:58.855 Those are really bad proxy goals for the meaning of life. 00:11:59.095 --> 00:12:02.064 And so I talk about what are the characteristics of proxy 00:12:02.064 --> 00:12:03.385 goals, and you named one of 'em. 00:12:03.685 --> 00:12:06.985 They have to be things that are inherently satisfying as opposed to 00:12:07.225 --> 00:12:11.485 that which actually brings you some sense of luster from the outside world. 00:12:11.925 --> 00:12:14.325 People really, really, uh, they're, they're gonna envy 00:12:14.325 --> 00:12:15.855 me a lot if I get this car. 00:12:15.885 --> 00:12:18.105 Sorry, that's a terrible proxy goal for meaning. 00:12:18.315 --> 00:12:19.395 You're never gonna find it. 00:12:19.605 --> 00:12:23.075 That's the star of Bethlehem is if it were out over the ocean, whoops, 00:12:23.265 --> 00:12:25.305 bad proxy is what it comes down to. 00:12:25.305 --> 00:12:27.705 And so that's kind of how to think about, you know, are my 00:12:27.705 --> 00:12:30.465 proxy goals really sitting over the stable of Bethlehem or not? 00:12:31.005 --> 00:12:35.834 Matt Abrahams: I really resonated with this idea of trying to figure out what 00:12:35.834 --> 00:12:40.755 the proxy goals are because many of mine are taking me in the wrong direction. 00:12:40.785 --> 00:12:44.355 And I really appreciated you delineating not only what proxy 00:12:44.355 --> 00:12:47.685 goals are, but the criteria by which you should establish them. 00:12:47.685 --> 00:12:48.795 It was very helpful. 00:12:49.035 --> 00:12:50.810 Arthur Brooks: That's great, and that's the chapter on calling. 00:12:51.790 --> 00:12:55.720 Because finding your calling, everybody, they say they want to do it, but one 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.880 of the biggest reasons that people don't find their calling, and by the 00:12:57.880 --> 00:13:01.810 way, finding your calling is one of the greatest ways to find the meaning in life. 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.570 The way that you find your calling is not saying, okay, I'm gonna go 00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:06.370 see my calling suddenly, no, no, no. 00:13:06.550 --> 00:13:09.790 You follow the right proxy goals, your calling is underneath 00:13:09.790 --> 00:13:11.230 them, is how it comes about. 00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:15.370 And that means, for example, intrinsic satisfaction, not extrinsic rewards. 00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:16.330 A classic case. 00:13:16.795 --> 00:13:18.925 Matt Abrahams: So it's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 00:13:18.925 --> 00:13:20.335 You gotta find the right rainbow. 00:13:20.845 --> 00:13:24.175 I asked our members of our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community to submit 00:13:24.175 --> 00:13:25.975 a question they'd like me to ask to you. 00:13:25.975 --> 00:13:27.235 You're beloved by them. 00:13:27.565 --> 00:13:28.735 And here's what I really liked. 00:13:29.275 --> 00:13:33.955 In a world that constantly prioritizes metrics of success, money, status, 00:13:33.955 --> 00:13:38.575 power, how can individuals reconcile the internal quest for meaning with the 00:13:38.575 --> 00:13:41.485 external pressure to constantly achieve? 00:13:41.895 --> 00:13:46.905 How do we stop using purpose as a tool for career advancement and begin using 00:13:46.905 --> 00:13:49.395 our career as a tool for purpose? 00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:52.079 Arthur Brooks: You know, it's, that's actually one of the reasons that you 00:13:52.079 --> 00:13:56.100 find that people who are in not fancy careers, they have a greater sense of 00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.640 meaning than people in fancy careers, than people who don't go to college 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:02.490 have less of a crisis of meaning than people who do go to college. 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:06.390 This is absolutely true because we're, um, again, there's the matrix 00:14:06.449 --> 00:14:09.930 of the screens in front of us, but there's the matrix that is our lives. 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:12.410 The machine-like character of our lives. 00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:16.340 And so one of the things that I strongly recommend to these people is it gets back 00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:20.900 to an early part of our conversation, is to make sure that a really big and healthy 00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:25.700 part of your life is you getting better at things that are not worldly achievement. 00:14:25.900 --> 00:14:30.100 Becoming excellent at things that the world is not gonna clap for you for. 00:14:30.339 --> 00:14:32.650 And excellence, I mean, strivers are gonna strive. 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:34.240 That's just the way it's actually gonna be. 00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:37.780 But are you truly great at meditating in a way where you 00:14:37.780 --> 00:14:39.040 understand yourself much better? 00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:40.300 Nobody's gonna pay you for that. 00:14:40.510 --> 00:14:42.400 Nobody's gonna write you up in the paper about that. 00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:44.050 You're not gonna get a trophy for that. 00:14:44.410 --> 00:14:46.420 Are you better at practicing your religion? 00:14:46.660 --> 00:14:49.449 Are you learning things that you don't need to know for work? 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:51.160 Nobody's gonna pay you for that. 00:14:51.645 --> 00:14:56.805 The whole point is however, that to start to think about excellence out of 00:14:56.805 --> 00:14:59.025 the world of these extrinsic rewards. 00:14:59.385 --> 00:15:02.895 That's really what it comes down to and start spending time doing that, and it 00:15:02.895 --> 00:15:07.245 will be so inherently satisfying and meaningful that you'll never go back. 00:15:07.485 --> 00:15:10.485 Matt Abrahams: It strikes me that doing those things just to do them 00:15:10.485 --> 00:15:13.670 for those intrinsic rewards, many of those things are very humbling as well. 00:15:14.364 --> 00:15:17.604 I've studied martial arts for decades, and the more I do it, 00:15:17.604 --> 00:15:19.375 the more I realize I don't know. 00:15:19.555 --> 00:15:23.935 And it is in that humbling that I do find meaning and groundedness. 00:15:24.025 --> 00:15:25.285 Arthur Brooks: For sure, absolutely. 00:15:25.375 --> 00:15:27.895 And we're not encouraged to be humble about the thing that people are paying 00:15:27.895 --> 00:15:32.215 us for, but the truth is that the stakes, they feel lower for other things. 00:15:32.215 --> 00:15:35.755 It's actually okay for me to, I can say to my wife, honey, I 00:15:35.755 --> 00:15:37.194 wish I were a better husband. 00:15:37.255 --> 00:15:38.905 I wanna be a better husband. 00:15:38.905 --> 00:15:41.275 I'm not the husband that I actually should be. 00:15:41.275 --> 00:15:44.905 And there's just this refreshment that comes from the acknowledgement that 00:15:44.905 --> 00:15:47.005 we're human in these particular ways. 00:15:47.185 --> 00:15:50.965 And when we're very, very fine, very special work machines, we're not 00:15:50.965 --> 00:15:52.255 gonna find occasions to do that. 00:15:52.585 --> 00:15:54.745 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, there's a humility and a vulnerability that 00:15:54.745 --> 00:15:58.015 I think really helps when you find those intrinsic activities. 00:15:59.190 --> 00:16:03.690 As we draw to an end, I typically end by asking everybody three questions. 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:06.600 One I create just for them, and then two that I've asked everyone. 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.720 But since you were on our show previously, and people can learn your 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:14.250 answers by listening to episode 181, I thought I'd ask you one question 00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:18.120 and then follow up with a rapid fire activity that I called this or that. 00:16:18.150 --> 00:16:18.745 Are you up for this? 00:16:19.390 --> 00:16:20.295 Arthur Brooks: I'm so up for this. 00:16:20.325 --> 00:16:22.215 Matt Abrahams: Okay, so let's start with the question first. 00:16:22.425 --> 00:16:27.105 One of the things I appreciate so much about what you do is that you provide 00:16:27.105 --> 00:16:31.395 specific guidance on things we can do, practical, tactical activities, 00:16:31.395 --> 00:16:34.450 questions we can ask, surveys we can take, meditations we can reflect on. 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:38.920 Can you share one or two of these activities that you have personally 00:16:38.920 --> 00:16:43.180 found really helpful that you have deployed or continue to deploy that 00:16:43.180 --> 00:16:46.690 really have benefited you, that, that hopefully can benefit us as well? 00:16:47.020 --> 00:16:47.350 Arthur Brooks: Yeah. 00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:50.050 One of the things that I do when I'm working with people for the first 00:16:50.050 --> 00:16:53.170 time is I'd have them take a test on what's called their affect profile. 00:16:53.530 --> 00:16:57.130 And affect profile is the intensity of positive and negative emotion. 00:16:57.365 --> 00:17:01.714 When people experience a lot of intense negative emotion, and half the population 00:17:01.714 --> 00:17:04.845 is above the median in negative emotionality, it's just the way it is. 00:17:05.014 --> 00:17:08.734 Most strivers are above average on negative emotionality. 00:17:09.004 --> 00:17:12.359 Management of negative emotion requires protocols and discipline. 00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:16.040 It requires actually active management, not elimination. 00:17:16.040 --> 00:17:19.010 Again, one of the things that we've done in the self-care revolution is 00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:22.340 telling people that there's something wrong with their sadness and anxiety. 00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:26.960 So number one is having discipline and protocol in your life that is 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.074 actually all about self-management. 00:17:29.074 --> 00:17:32.405 So for me that's really, really important and I've talked about and 00:17:32.405 --> 00:17:33.665 written about this an awful lot. 00:17:33.665 --> 00:17:36.695 It's gotten some attention, as a matter of fact, and I have a morning 00:17:36.695 --> 00:17:38.764 protocol and an evening protocol. 00:17:38.885 --> 00:17:43.294 The morning protocol is to manage negative affect and to increase productivity. 00:17:43.475 --> 00:17:47.014 And the evening protocol is to manage negative affect and enhance sleep. 00:17:47.225 --> 00:17:49.475 And that's one of the things that our practice very 00:17:49.475 --> 00:17:51.335 assiduously and very seriously. 00:17:51.575 --> 00:17:53.735 Matt Abrahams: And I encourage people to listen to your show, or to read your 00:17:53.735 --> 00:17:55.505 writings, to learn about your protocol. 00:17:55.505 --> 00:17:57.155 I have tried to mirror some of it. 00:17:57.155 --> 00:18:00.545 The 4:00 AM waking up is a little hard, but the exercising in the 00:18:00.545 --> 00:18:02.195 morning, I have certainly adopted. 00:18:02.435 --> 00:18:04.625 Arthur Brooks: Yeah, you don't make the perfect the enemy of the good, 00:18:04.625 --> 00:18:07.295 and I recommend that people actually figure out their own protocols. 00:18:07.295 --> 00:18:10.175 I just give mine as an exemplar of a place maybe to start. 00:18:10.445 --> 00:18:11.074 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:18:11.074 --> 00:18:14.554 And finding something that you can live with and do repeatedly is really helpful. 00:18:14.824 --> 00:18:16.955 Alright, you are the first guest I've ever done this with. 00:18:16.955 --> 00:18:19.264 I've had it done for me and I found it really insightful. 00:18:19.264 --> 00:18:22.925 So I'm gonna provide you pairs of choices, and I'd like you to quickly choose the 00:18:22.925 --> 00:18:25.024 one that you gravitate towards most. 00:18:25.024 --> 00:18:27.935 So if I were to say summer or winter, you would say, 00:18:28.115 --> 00:18:28.655 Arthur Brooks: Winter. 00:18:28.774 --> 00:18:29.225 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:18:29.225 --> 00:18:31.475 And then after I give a few of these, I'm gonna pick one to 00:18:31.475 --> 00:18:32.435 ask you a little bit more of. 00:18:32.435 --> 00:18:34.084 So I've got a couple pairings. 00:18:34.084 --> 00:18:34.455 Ready to go? 00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:35.430 Arthur Brooks: Ready. 00:18:35.580 --> 00:18:36.810 Matt Abrahams: Zoo or aquarium? 00:18:37.050 --> 00:18:37.620 Arthur Brooks: Zoo. 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:39.420 Matt Abrahams: Suitcase or backpack? 00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:40.410 Arthur Brooks: Suitcase. 00:18:40.770 --> 00:18:42.180 Matt Abrahams: Theater or library? 00:18:42.389 --> 00:18:43.020 Arthur Brooks: Theater. 00:18:43.350 --> 00:18:44.370 Matt Abrahams: Time or money? 00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:45.450 Arthur Brooks: Time. 00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:47.250 Matt Abrahams: People or ideas? 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:48.210 Arthur Brooks: People. 00:18:48.629 --> 00:18:50.220 Matt Abrahams: Point it out or let it go? 00:18:50.804 --> 00:18:51.524 Arthur Brooks: Let it go. 00:18:51.764 --> 00:18:52.995 Matt Abrahams: Tell me about that last one. 00:18:53.355 --> 00:18:56.804 Arthur Brooks: So, my natural tendency is to point it out, but 00:18:56.804 --> 00:19:02.115 Matt, I've been married 34 years and I've found that pointing it out does 00:19:02.115 --> 00:19:04.304 not give me the best possible life. 00:19:04.395 --> 00:19:08.850 And so appropriate self-management means that my tendency is to point 00:19:08.850 --> 00:19:12.675 it out, but my choice is to let it go and life is a lot better usually. 00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:15.070 Matt Abrahams: My answer to that is exactly the same. 00:19:15.070 --> 00:19:19.150 I think part of our profession has pointed out, and yet part of our peacefulness 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:20.170 in our life might be let it go. 00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:25.020 Arthur, you have helped us rethink many things, from the meaning of in 00:19:25.020 --> 00:19:28.440 our life to how we can strive for happiness, and just in general how we 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.330 can create protocols to help ourselves. 00:19:30.570 --> 00:19:33.210 Thank you for your time and thank you for revisiting us and 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:34.500 best of luck on your new book. 00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:35.280 Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt. 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:36.120 I appreciate it so much. 00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:38.610 Thank you for your work and all you're bringing to the world outside 00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:41.160 of the classroom and to, to the whole world through this show. 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:41.580 I love it. 00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:46.020 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:19:46.020 --> 00:19:47.970 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:48.314 --> 00:19:50.895 To learn more about communication and meaning, please listen to our 00:19:50.895 --> 00:19:53.115 miniseries on happiness and wellbeing. 00:19:53.294 --> 00:19:56.415 Those are episodes 179 through 182. 00:19:56.705 --> 00:20:01.425 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:01.635 --> 00:20:02.750 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:03.435 --> 00:20:05.504 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:20:05.715 --> 00:20:08.715 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:08.775 --> 00:20:10.725 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:10.995 --> 00:20:13.815 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:20:14.085 --> 00:20:17.985 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:20:17.985 --> 00:20:19.845 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:20:20.295 --> 00:20:23.295 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning community 00:20:23.295 --> 00:20:27.345 for Ask Matt Anythings, AI coach Matt, learning quests, book talks, 00:20:27.345 --> 00:20:29.435 and more at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:20:31.305 --> 00:20:32.355 That's fastersmarter.io/learning.