WEBVTT

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Hé

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Maarten!

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Hoi

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Lisa,

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alles

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goed?

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Ja

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prima!

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Ik

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was

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dit

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weekend

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in

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Rotterdam,

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bij

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mijn

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ouders.

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We

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liepen

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over

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de

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West-Kruiskade,

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en

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echt,

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de

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hoeveelheid

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verschillende

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talen

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die

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je

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daar

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hoort...

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het

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is

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net

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een

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wereldreis

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in

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één

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straat.

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Ja

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precies,

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dat

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is

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een

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goed

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voorbeeld

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van

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hoe

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multicultureel

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Nederland

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is

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geworden.

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We

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hadden

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het

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er

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de

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vorige

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keer

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al

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over,

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over

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de

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verschillende

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kanten

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van

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immigratie.

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Ja,

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en

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het

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zette

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me

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aan

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het

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denken.

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Het

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begon

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natuurlijk

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allemaal

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met

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de

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gastarbeiders

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na

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de

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oorlog,

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toch?

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Voor

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de

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wederopbouw.

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Klopt.

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In

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de

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jaren

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'60

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en

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'70.

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Mensen

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uit

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Italië,

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Spanje,

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Turkije,

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Marokko...

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De

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gedachte

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was

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toen

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dat

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ze

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tijdelijk

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zouden

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blijven

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om

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te

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werken.

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Maar

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velen

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zijn

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gebleven

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en

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hebben

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hier

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een

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leven

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opgebouwd.

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En

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gelukkig

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maar,

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want

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de

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culturele

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invloed

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is

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enorm.

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Denk

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alleen

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al

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aan

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het

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eten!

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Haha,

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ja,

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dat

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is

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waar.

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De

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culinaire

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culturele

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verrijking

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is

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onmiskenbaar.

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Maar

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de

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integratie

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was

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niet

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altijd

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even

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makkelijk,

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hè.

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De

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overheid

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had

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er

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in

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het

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begin

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ook

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niet

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echt

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een

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plan

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voor.

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Nee,

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dat

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klopt.

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Maar

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als

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je

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het

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vergelijkt

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met

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nu...

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De

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discussie

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is

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zo

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anders.

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Nu

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gaat

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het

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vaak

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over

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hoogopgeleide

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expats,

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of

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kenniswerkers

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zoals

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ze

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die

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noemen.

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Ja,

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enerzijds

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heb

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je

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die

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groep,

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die

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vaak

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met

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open

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armen

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wordt

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ontvangen

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omdat

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ze

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een

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specifieke

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vraag

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op

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de

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arbeidsmarkt

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invullen.

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Denk

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aan

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de

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tech-sector

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in

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Amsterdam.

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Oh

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wacht,

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en

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anderzijds

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heb

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je

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de

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discussie

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over

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vluchtelingen

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en

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het

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asielbeleid.

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Dat

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ligt

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politiek

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veel

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gevoeliger.

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Precies.

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Terwijl

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beide

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groepen

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om

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heel

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verschillende

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redenen

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hierheen

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komen.

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De

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ene

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voor

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een

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baan,

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de

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ander

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op

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de

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vlucht

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voor

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oorlog

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of

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gevaar.

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Dat

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wordt

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vaak

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op

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één

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hoop

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gegooid

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in

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het

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debat.

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Dat

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is

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oneerlijk

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eigenlijk.

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Want

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je

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kunt

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die

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twee

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situaties

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niet

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met

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elkaar

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vergelijken.

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Bovendien,

00:02:03.541 --> 00:02:03.830
die

00:02:03.830 --> 00:02:05.020
kenniswerkers,

00:02:05.020 --> 00:02:05.190
dat

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leidt

00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:05.829
toch

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ook

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tot

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een

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soort

00:02:06.669 --> 00:02:07.088
braindrain

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in

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hun

00:02:07.388 --> 00:02:07.688
eigen

00:02:07.688 --> 00:02:08.128
land?

00:02:08.128 --> 00:02:08.377
Dat

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is

00:02:08.547 --> 00:02:08.817
een

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valide

00:02:09.527 --> 00:02:09.926
punt.

00:02:09.926 --> 00:02:10.136
Als

00:02:10.136 --> 00:02:10.726
alle

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hoogopgeleiden

00:02:11.315 --> 00:02:11.735
vertrekken,

00:02:11.735 --> 00:02:12.215
heeft

00:02:12.215 --> 00:02:12.225
dat

00:02:12.225 --> 00:02:12.585
gevolgen

00:02:12.585 --> 00:02:13.074
voor

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de

00:02:13.074 --> 00:02:13.564
economie

00:02:13.564 --> 00:02:14.313
daar.

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Het

00:02:14.333 --> 00:02:14.433
is

00:02:14.433 --> 00:02:14.623
een

00:02:14.623 --> 00:02:15.523
complex

00:02:15.523 --> 00:02:15.932
internationaal

00:02:15.932 --> 00:02:16.722
vraagstuk.

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Absoluut.

00:02:17.721 --> 00:02:17.931
En

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dan

00:02:18.021 --> 00:02:18.261
hoor

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je

00:02:18.411 --> 00:02:18.980
mensen

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zich

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zorgen

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maken

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over

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de

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maatschappelijke

00:02:20.959 --> 00:02:21.379
cohesie

00:02:21.379 --> 00:02:21.609
hier

00:02:21.609 --> 00:02:22.018
in

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Nederland.

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Alsof

00:02:22.628 --> 00:02:23.477
nieuwkomers

00:02:23.477 --> 00:02:23.717
per

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definitie

00:02:24.027 --> 00:02:24.207
een

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bedreiging

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zijn.

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Nou

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ja,

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die

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zorg

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is

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er

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wel

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bij

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een

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deel

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van

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de

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bevolking.

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De

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angst

00:02:28.974 --> 00:02:29.204
dat

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de

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'Nederlandse

00:02:30.023 --> 00:02:30.802
identiteit'

00:02:30.802 --> 00:02:31.172
verdwijnt

00:02:31.172 --> 00:02:31.582
of

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dat

00:02:31.662 --> 00:02:32.032
groepen

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langs

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elkaar

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heen

00:02:32.811 --> 00:02:33.161
leven

00:02:33.161 --> 00:02:33.271
in

00:02:33.271 --> 00:02:33.721
plaats

00:02:33.721 --> 00:02:33.960
van

00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:34.180
met

00:02:34.180 --> 00:02:34.545
elkaar.

00:02:34.545 --> 00:02:34.910
Pff,

00:02:34.910 --> 00:02:35.299
lekker

00:02:35.299 --> 00:02:36.309
belangrijk,

00:02:36.309 --> 00:02:36.319
die

00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:36.579
vage

00:02:36.579 --> 00:02:37.328
'Nederlandse

00:02:37.328 --> 00:02:38.307
identiteit'.

00:02:38.307 --> 00:02:38.517
Die

00:02:38.517 --> 00:02:38.627
is

00:02:38.627 --> 00:02:38.877
toch

00:02:38.877 --> 00:02:39.227
altijd

00:02:39.227 --> 00:02:39.387
al

00:02:39.387 --> 00:02:39.707
in

00:02:39.707 --> 00:02:40.016
beweging

00:02:40.016 --> 00:02:40.826
geweest?

00:02:40.826 --> 00:02:40.916
We

00:02:40.916 --> 00:02:41.076
zijn

00:02:41.076 --> 00:02:41.256
een

00:02:41.256 --> 00:02:41.505
land

00:02:41.505 --> 00:02:41.935
van

00:02:41.935 --> 00:02:42.105
handel

00:02:42.105 --> 00:02:42.175
en

00:02:42.175 --> 00:02:42.994
immigratie,

00:02:42.994 --> 00:02:43.084
dat

00:02:43.084 --> 00:02:43.204
is

00:02:43.204 --> 00:02:43.324
niks

00:02:43.324 --> 00:02:44.104
nieuws.

00:02:44.104 --> 00:02:44.793
Historisch

00:02:44.793 --> 00:02:45.153
gezien

00:02:45.153 --> 00:02:45.483
heb

00:02:45.483 --> 00:02:45.503
je

00:02:45.503 --> 00:02:46.102
gelijk.

00:02:46.102 --> 00:02:46.702
Desondanks

00:02:46.702 --> 00:02:47.032
blijft

00:02:47.032 --> 00:02:47.421
het

00:02:47.421 --> 00:02:47.501
een

00:02:47.501 --> 00:02:47.721
thema

00:02:47.721 --> 00:02:47.901
dat

00:02:47.901 --> 00:02:48.021
de

00:02:48.021 --> 00:02:48.761
gemoederen

00:02:48.761 --> 00:02:49.500
bezighoudt.

00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:49.710
De

00:02:49.710 --> 00:02:49.900
vraag

00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:50.010
is

00:02:50.010 --> 00:02:50.190
hoe

00:02:50.190 --> 00:02:50.289
je

00:02:50.289 --> 00:02:50.579
zorgt

00:02:50.579 --> 00:02:50.899
dat

00:02:50.899 --> 00:02:51.219
iedereen

00:02:51.219 --> 00:02:51.739
zich

00:02:51.739 --> 00:02:51.968
onderdeel

00:02:51.968 --> 00:02:52.118
voelt

00:02:52.118 --> 00:02:52.388
van

00:02:52.388 --> 00:02:52.648
de

00:02:52.648 --> 00:02:53.497
samenleving.

00:02:53.497 --> 00:02:53.757
Door

00:02:53.757 --> 00:02:54.017
niet

00:02:54.017 --> 00:02:54.187
zo

00:02:54.187 --> 00:02:54.896
krampachtig

00:02:54.896 --> 00:02:54.986
te

00:02:54.986 --> 00:02:55.246
doen,

00:02:55.246 --> 00:02:55.696
denk

00:02:55.696 --> 00:02:55.816
ik.

00:02:55.696 --> 00:02:55.906
En

00:02:55.906 --> 00:02:56.066
door

00:02:56.066 --> 00:02:56.186
te

00:02:56.186 --> 00:02:56.795
investeren

00:02:56.795 --> 00:02:57.055
in

00:02:57.055 --> 00:02:57.245
goede

00:02:57.245 --> 00:02:57.914
scholen,

00:02:57.914 --> 00:02:58.314
buurthuizen

00:02:58.314 --> 00:02:58.584
en

00:02:58.584 --> 00:02:59.693
taalonderwijs.

00:02:59.693 --> 00:03:00.073
Gewoon,

00:03:00.073 --> 00:03:01.082
praktische

00:03:01.082 --> 00:03:01.292
dingen.

00:03:01.292 --> 00:03:01.502
Dat

00:03:01.502 --> 00:03:01.622
is

00:03:01.622 --> 00:03:01.752
de

00:03:01.752 --> 00:03:02.022
kern,

00:03:02.022 --> 00:03:02.691
eigenlijk

00:03:02.691 --> 00:03:03.091
wel.

00:03:03.091 --> 00:03:03.301
In

00:03:03.301 --> 00:03:03.571
plaats

00:03:03.571 --> 00:03:03.781
van

00:03:03.781 --> 00:03:03.930
een

00:03:03.930 --> 00:03:04.490
abstract

00:03:04.490 --> 00:03:04.850
debat,

00:03:04.850 --> 00:03:05.379
kijken

00:03:05.379 --> 00:03:05.429
naar

00:03:05.429 --> 00:03:05.599
wat

00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:05.819
er

00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:05.939
in

00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:06.219
de

00:03:06.219 --> 00:03:06.389
praktijk

00:03:06.389 --> 00:03:06.679
nodig

00:03:06.679 --> 00:03:06.789
is

00:03:06.789 --> 00:03:07.098
voor

00:03:07.098 --> 00:03:07.638
succesvolle

00:03:07.638 --> 00:03:08.607
integratie.

00:03:08.607 --> 00:03:08.687
Je

00:03:08.687 --> 00:03:08.967
noemde

00:03:08.967 --> 00:03:09.177
net

00:03:09.177 --> 00:03:09.327
dat

00:03:09.327 --> 00:03:09.607
woord,

00:03:09.607 --> 00:03:10.706
maatschappelijke

00:03:10.706 --> 00:03:11.286
cohesie.

00:03:11.286 --> 00:03:11.495
Dat

00:03:11.495 --> 00:03:11.705
hoor

00:03:11.705 --> 00:03:11.825
je

00:03:11.825 --> 00:03:12.685
inderdaad

00:03:12.685 --> 00:03:13.084
constant.

00:03:13.084 --> 00:03:13.344
Maar

00:03:13.344 --> 00:03:13.534
wat

00:03:13.534 --> 00:03:14.024
betekent

00:03:14.024 --> 00:03:14.423
het

00:03:14.423 --> 00:03:14.483
nou

00:03:14.483 --> 00:03:15.003
eigenlijk

00:03:15.003 --> 00:03:15.453
precies,

00:03:15.453 --> 00:03:15.583
in

00:03:15.583 --> 00:03:16.232
gewone

00:03:16.232 --> 00:03:16.882
mensentaal?

00:03:16.882 --> 00:03:17.262
Goede

00:03:17.262 --> 00:03:17.881
vraag.

00:03:17.881 --> 00:03:18.091
Het

00:03:18.091 --> 00:03:18.211
is

00:03:18.211 --> 00:03:18.781
eigenlijk

00:03:18.781 --> 00:03:19.280
de

00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:19.420
sociale

00:03:19.420 --> 00:03:19.680
lijm

00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:20.080
van

00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:20.170
een

00:03:20.170 --> 00:03:21.079
samenleving.

00:03:21.079 --> 00:03:21.289
De

00:03:21.289 --> 00:03:21.439
mate

00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:21.789
waarin

00:03:21.789 --> 00:03:22.398
mensen

00:03:22.398 --> 00:03:22.478
zich

00:03:22.478 --> 00:03:22.578
met

00:03:22.578 --> 00:03:22.938
elkaar

00:03:22.938 --> 00:03:23.477
verbonden

00:03:23.477 --> 00:03:23.877
voelen,

00:03:23.877 --> 00:03:24.447
vertrouwen

00:03:24.447 --> 00:03:24.777
hebben

00:03:24.777 --> 00:03:25.236
in

00:03:25.236 --> 00:03:25.276
elkaar

00:03:25.276 --> 00:03:25.346
en

00:03:25.346 --> 00:03:25.456
in

00:03:25.456 --> 00:03:25.966
de

00:03:25.966 --> 00:03:26.475
instituties.

00:03:26.475 --> 00:03:26.855
Ah,

00:03:26.855 --> 00:03:27.165
dus

00:03:27.165 --> 00:03:27.325
de

00:03:27.325 --> 00:03:28.474
samenhang.

00:03:28.474 --> 00:03:28.684
En

00:03:28.684 --> 00:03:28.774
een

00:03:28.774 --> 00:03:29.014
term

00:03:29.014 --> 00:03:29.194
als

00:03:29.194 --> 00:03:29.923
kenniswerker

00:03:29.923 --> 00:03:30.043
is

00:03:30.043 --> 00:03:30.223
ook

00:03:30.223 --> 00:03:30.703
vrij

00:03:30.703 --> 00:03:30.882
nieuw,

00:03:30.882 --> 00:03:31.622
vergeleken

00:03:31.622 --> 00:03:31.672
met

00:03:31.672 --> 00:03:32.751
gastarbeider,

00:03:32.751 --> 00:03:33.071
toch?

00:03:33.071 --> 00:03:33.311
Ja,

00:03:33.311 --> 00:03:33.491
dat

00:03:33.491 --> 00:03:33.791
woord

00:03:33.791 --> 00:03:34.470
benadrukt

00:03:34.470 --> 00:03:34.570
echt

00:03:34.570 --> 00:03:34.750
dat

00:03:34.750 --> 00:03:34.930
het

00:03:34.930 --> 00:03:35.574
om

00:03:35.574 --> 00:03:36.219
hoogopgeleide

00:03:36.219 --> 00:03:36.589
specialisten

00:03:36.589 --> 00:03:37.268
gaat,

00:03:37.268 --> 00:03:37.288
niet

00:03:37.288 --> 00:03:37.783
om

00:03:37.783 --> 00:03:38.278
laaggeschoolde

00:03:38.278 --> 00:03:38.467
arbeid

00:03:38.467 --> 00:03:38.667
zoals

00:03:38.667 --> 00:03:38.837
bij

00:03:38.837 --> 00:03:38.947
de

00:03:38.947 --> 00:03:39.357
eerste

00:03:39.357 --> 00:03:40.176
gastarbeiders

00:03:40.176 --> 00:03:40.216
het

00:03:40.216 --> 00:03:40.586
geval

00:03:40.586 --> 00:03:40.866
was.

00:03:40.866 --> 00:03:41.076
Dus,

00:03:41.076 --> 00:03:41.196
we

00:03:41.196 --> 00:03:41.595
hebben

00:03:41.595 --> 00:03:41.795
het

00:03:41.795 --> 00:03:42.265
gehad

00:03:42.265 --> 00:03:42.395
over

00:03:42.395 --> 00:03:42.525
de

00:03:42.525 --> 00:03:42.785
hele

00:03:42.785 --> 00:03:43.664
ontwikkeling.

00:03:43.664 --> 00:03:43.874
Van

00:03:43.874 --> 00:03:43.974
de

00:03:43.974 --> 00:03:44.963
gastarbeiders

00:03:44.963 --> 00:03:45.063
die

00:03:45.063 --> 00:03:45.333
kwamen

00:03:45.333 --> 00:03:45.703
voor

00:03:45.703 --> 00:03:45.892
de

00:03:45.892 --> 00:03:46.662
wederopbouw

00:03:46.662 --> 00:03:46.872
tot

00:03:46.872 --> 00:03:46.962
de

00:03:46.962 --> 00:03:47.371
huidige,

00:03:47.371 --> 00:03:48.061
veel

00:03:48.061 --> 00:03:48.251
complexere

00:03:48.251 --> 00:03:48.950
discussie

00:03:48.950 --> 00:03:49.060
over

00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:50.100
kenniswerkers,

00:03:50.100 --> 00:03:50.629
vluchtelingen

00:03:50.629 --> 00:03:50.899
en

00:03:50.899 --> 00:03:50.959
de

00:03:50.959 --> 00:03:51.309
impact

00:03:51.309 --> 00:03:51.419
op

00:03:51.419 --> 00:03:51.519
de

00:03:51.519 --> 00:03:52.458
samenleving.

00:03:52.458 --> 00:03:52.798
Ja,

00:03:52.798 --> 00:03:53.657
precies.

00:03:53.657 --> 00:03:53.867
En

00:03:53.867 --> 00:03:53.967
hoe

00:03:53.967 --> 00:03:54.087
de

00:03:54.087 --> 00:03:54.767
perceptie

00:03:54.767 --> 00:03:54.956
en

00:03:54.956 --> 00:03:55.056
het

00:03:55.056 --> 00:03:55.876
asielbeleid

00:03:55.876 --> 00:03:55.946
door

00:03:55.946 --> 00:03:55.996
de

00:03:55.996 --> 00:03:56.485
decennia

00:03:56.485 --> 00:03:56.805
heen

00:03:56.805 --> 00:03:56.985
zijn

00:03:56.985 --> 00:03:57.854
veranderd.

00:03:57.854 --> 00:03:58.064
Het

00:03:58.064 --> 00:03:58.124
is

00:03:58.124 --> 00:03:58.344
echt

00:03:58.344 --> 00:03:58.544
een

00:03:58.544 --> 00:03:59.154
onderwerp

00:03:59.154 --> 00:03:59.254
met

00:03:59.254 --> 00:03:59.683
ontzettend

00:03:59.683 --> 00:03:59.903
veel

00:03:59.903 --> 00:04:00.453
lagen.

00:04:00.453 --> 00:04:00.733
Nou,

00:04:00.733 --> 00:04:00.962
hier

00:04:00.962 --> 00:04:01.192
zijn

00:04:01.192 --> 00:04:01.302
we

00:04:01.302 --> 00:04:01.852
voorlopig

00:04:01.852 --> 00:04:01.972
nog

00:04:01.972 --> 00:04:02.202
niet

00:04:02.202 --> 00:04:02.726
over

00:04:02.726 --> 00:04:03.251
uitgepraat.

00:04:03.251 --> 00:04:03.451
Ik

00:04:03.451 --> 00:04:03.461
ga

00:04:03.461 --> 00:04:03.551
er

00:04:03.551 --> 00:04:03.751
weer

00:04:03.751 --> 00:04:04.410
vandoor.

00:04:04.410 --> 00:04:04.570
Tot

00:04:04.570 --> 00:04:04.840
volgende

00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:05.399
week!

00:04:05.399 --> 00:04:05.549
Ja,

00:04:05.549 --> 00:04:05.699
is

00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:06.309
goed.

00:04:06.309 --> 00:04:06.429
We

00:04:06.309 --> 00:04:06.649
spreken

00:04:06.649 --> 00:04:06.849
elkaar.

00:04:06.849 --> 00:04:07.448
Doei!