The thing that I remember the most is, um, uh, them talking about the difficulty
getting started with things sometimes, you know, and like the, the, the fact
that like these, these things that don't seem like they should be that hard end
up getting built into your brain to be like this giant mountain that you
can't, like possibly climb, you know?
​ Hey, my name is Jesse J.
Anderson, host of the ADHD Nerds podcast.
The show where we talk about living with ADHD, and have some fun along the way.
On today's episode, I talk with my friend, Rich Burroughs.
Rich is a fellow nerd who is the Staff Developer Advocate at Loft
Labs, and also is the creator of Kube Cuddle, a podcast about Kubernetes
and the people who build and use it.
Rich and I both did some ADHD coach training together last year, and we
talk a bit more about that in today's episode, as well as what it's like
working in the tech industry with ADHD.
But first I'd like to thank our sponsor, Llama Life.
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Now let's get to the show.
Hey Rich, I'd love to start the show with kind of hearing how did you
like, kind of find out you had ADHD and what was that story like for you?
Yeah, so I was, uh, pretty old when I got diagnosed.
So, um, it was age 55, um, which is kind of crazy.
I see these people on Reddit sometimes and they're like, I got diagnosed at 25.
Oh, my life is ruined.
And I'm like, wow,
I wish I could have gotten diagnosed back then, but, you know, I've been
working in tech for many years.
I helped organize a local kind of community tech conference, right?
And, um, somebody who was speaking there, I knew they were speaking
about mental health stuff.
Um, it's actually someone I know, a friend of mine, right?
And they were gonna be giving this talk about mental health and I at
the time knew that I had experienced anxiety and depression and, um,
was pretty open about that stuff.
Like I talked about it a lot on Twitter, and so I was excited to see
this talk about mental health and I didn't know it was really gonna
focus a lot on this person's ADHD.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And it was like a gut punch, you know, watching his talk.
I was almost in tears by the end of it.
And, I'm someone who thanks to toxic masculinity, you know, like
it's, I almost never cry, right?
But , I was like, as close to crying as I get and um, it was
like he was talking about my.
. And so afterwards I grabbed my friend and I was like, I
need to talk to you right now.
And, and we had a discussion about it for a little bit.
And then, um, a year and a half goes by and I don't do anything about getting
evaluated and it's kind of funny.
Um, not too long ago I was looking back on my phone and um, I actually found a photo.
Like, I do this thing once in a while where like I'm in a bookstore
and I see a book that I wanna buy.
Right.
But I maybe don't wanna buy it right now, or I wanna see if I can get it
through the library online or something.
And so I'll take a picture of it.
Right.
And, and there's a picture of me holding a copy of Driven to Distraction, like,
like a month after this conference.
Right.
And I didn't get the book and I didn't read it or anything.
And so I'm, I'm at this point where, I'm at a job that started basically at almost
the same exact time as the pandemic.
And um, I was really struggling.
Um, it wasn't a great fit in some ways, you know, but, part of it I think was
like the extra cognitive load of like, just living in that time period where
like nobody knew what was happening.
We didn't understand the virus yet.
I was like, wiping down my groceries, you know, with like, yeah.
So I was struggling really hard and got, you know, got to the point where
I was, you know, almost unable to work.
You know, like I just wasn't getting anything done, and
I knew I was in trouble.
And so I finally was like, all right, I need to go get this checked out.
and I went through this company that has since gone out of business.
It was one of these mental health startups, um, called Ahead.
Where, um, they matched you with a, you know, It was a nurse practitioner in my
case, you know, and I got diagnosed and, then I went through this period where,
and I think this is like not uncommon, where I doubted my diagnosis, , so,
Mm-hmm.
in, I was certain I had it right, and then I get the diagnosis and I
start asking myself questions like, it seems like that was too easy, right?
It was just like a one hour meeting and you know, um,
like, can I really trust this?
And um, but then after a while, um, you know, that didn't last too long.
Like probably not more than like a few weeks.
Right?
Right.
yeah.
Was that, so when you were doubting it, was it because the process went
too quickly or was it kind of like you just having the, I, I know a
lot of people find out about ADHD and they're like, it's just it.
I, I think part of the years of kind of being battered down by having ADHD,
you almost feel like, this feels too easy, this doesn't seem right, like you
kind of have this weight that you've built up, and so it feels like having
an answer that explains all that almost like, I don't deserve this or something.
Is that sort of what you felt, or, yeah.
What was that experience like?
I don't think that was necessarily what I felt.
I think that it was, um, a lot of it was just about the process, right?
Because this place, um, it really was kind of like a bit of
a prescription farm, you know?
Uh, and, and these prescribers like, I think that they were just, In these
meetings, like all day, they had like almost no time to like follow up
with people or do anything like that.
It was just all about like getting these evaluations done, you know?
And so, you know, I didn't trust it partly because of that, I think,
but, um, but also, you know, I mean maybe that was a factor.
I don't know.
Like I hadn't thought about it that way.
The fact that like, I felt like I was, um, maybe it was too
easy to let myself off the hook.
Um, . But, uh, but what I found pretty soon after is that, um, you know,
I still experience some anxiety and depression, um, but that stuff is much
less than, than it was beforehand.
That I feel like that was almost all triggered by the ADHD, you know,
and that I've, as I've started to kind of understand those, those, um,
I guess cycles, you know, of like.
I'm not getting stuff done, and so I get anxious about not getting stuff
done, and then I feel terrible and so I get depressed, you know, um,
that, that, um, that understanding how my brain works better has really
helped me in a lot of different ways.
Right.
Do you, do you remember from your friends talk, like any specific things that
really kind of stood out and kind of maybe took, took you back and made you kind of
reflect on specific parts of your life that like, oh, this is why I couldn't
do this, or this is why I felt that way?
Like what sort of things really stuck out to you?
Um, the thing that I remember the most is, um, uh, them talking about the
difficulty getting started with things sometimes, you know, and like the, the,
the fact that like these, these things that don't seem like they should be that
hard end up getting built into your brain to be like this giant mountain that you
can't, like possibly climb, you know?
I think that's the, that's the thing that stands out the most.
Um, but, um, but in general, you know, it just all.
kind of fit my experiences very well.
And you know, some of these things I knew about myself already, you know, um, some
of these, like, very little of the things that I've learned about ADHD are things
that like, , were super surprising to me once I understood them, you know, but,
um, but it's like I didn't have the big picture, I didn't have the big narrative.
These were all individual aspects of my personality or something, right?
There wasn't like this thing that is the, the explanation for, for why I'm that way.
Yeah.
It, it, it almost feels like you're just sort of like collecting all these things
that you think of as like, I remember I used to think of them as like personality
quirks or almost like, like weird like family traits because like my dad and
my brother, they both have ADHD, well, my dad denies it, but I'm pretty sure
he has ADHD and my brother has ADHD and they have a lot of those similar quirks,
whereas like, it feels like, something's
broken or different about my brain compared to other people, but my dad
and my brother have this thing too.
So it must be just sort of like one of those family things.
And I was building up this giant list in my head of like all these things that were
kind of weird about us and felt kind of wrong, and then eventually found out that,
oh, Hey, these are like basically listed in the DSM five as like symptoms of ADHD.
And there was other things too, like I'd find out.
Um, I remember one of the things that really stood out early on
when I was looking at symptoms.
Was that, uh, sensory issues being common with ADHD and
like specifically t-shirt tags.
And that was like this like light bulb moment for me because I was like, I
have always hated t-shirt tags so much.
I like rip 'em out of every shirt that I have.
Cause it's just like the sent, like, it's not like, oh, that's sort of irritating.
It's like, I can't think or do anything.
All I can think about is that little scratchy itch in the back of my
neck and it's gonna drive me insane.
And so like that, like jumped out to me as even, even though
it's not like, that's not like.
not everyone with ADHD has that experience and that also those sensory issues also
are kind of in common with autism as well.
But it was just like even this weird thing that I thought was just
sort of like a weird thing with me is like listed as a common thing.
Um, yeah, it was just really kind of revelatory for me finding out that all
these things all kind of had a name collectively and that I wasn't the
only one sort of experiencing all of.
I thought I was really eccentric.
Yeah, Cool.
So, uh, I've been following you.
I don't remember when I started following you, but I've been following you on
Twitter for a long time cuz I think we're just sort of in the same tech space.
I know you're really big in like the Kubernetes community,
which I'm not at all.
So I think maybe you spoke at a conference I was at and I
followed you there or something.
But I remember a couple years ago when you started posting more about ADHD and I had
known that I was diagnosed at the time.
So I saw you posting about it and then you mentioned that you were.
About to start your ADHD coaching training and I was like, oh no, I was gonna do
that , I had like, had it on my list to sign up for this, uh, ADHD coach training.
And then I hadn't done it.
And it literally started like you, you tweeted and it was like
going to start the next day,
I remember this.
So I like panicked and tried to do it really quick and thankfully
I was able to get it done.
So I.
Literally the night before.
And, uh, we both ended up doing, uh, yeah, some ADHD coach training, uh, together.
So I'm curious what, what led you from first finding out that, oh,
hey, I have this thing to deciding like, Hey, maybe I want to be a
coach and start that training.
What kind of led to that?
So I, um, I got hooked up with an amazing coach, you know, so, um, some of my
friends, um, had taken some boot camps that, um, Dusty Chipura does, and, uh,
people were just glowing about her.
You know, like they're probably like three different people that I knew who
had done these boot camps, and they all recommended them really highly.
And so I took Dusty's next boot camp that she did, and.
. Um, I started doing one-on-one coaching with her afterwards too.
Um, and you know, I thought that it was something that, um, I
could potentially be good at.
I'm somebody with a lot of empathy, which I think is not uncommon for ADHD folks.
Um, I I really, um, my thought about it was, I can check this out, you know,
it's not cheap, but you know, If I don't wanna become a coach, at least
hopefully I learned some things that I can apply to my own life, right?
And so that was kind of the perspective that I went into it with.
And it turned out that I, um, I don't know at this point, you know, I've
got a pretty good career in tech.
It's really scary.
Thinking about like, changing careers, you know, and going into coaching.
I think it would be really rewarding for me in some ways.
And I think that there's the possibility that I.
Might actually be a happier person if I felt like a bunch of fulfillment
from helping people, you know?
but at the same time, it's like I've got a pretty good paycheck, , and you know,
I've spent years building up this really good network in the tech community.
And so, you know, in the end, I don't.
I don't think I could really pull the trigger, you know, to, to actually make
the switch, um, in becoming a coach.
But, um, I did find the classes pretty valuable.
I, I think that, like the first one, especially, we, we both took, um,
classes at this place called ADDCA, A D D C A, and their first class,
the, uh, oh, I can't even remember.
Simply ADHD.
It's.
Yeah, simply
Yeah.
That was the one that I found like super, super helpful.
And I think that, that, I would recommend that one to people, you know, who didn't
even wanna become a coach, you know, um, um, assuming that it fits their budget.
Right.
Um, I think that, uh, they did a really good job of explaining ADHD.
And the thing that I liked about it the most is that it was
very science-based, you know?
So, um, you know, we'd get these, we had this pdf, you know, that
we would use and like there'd be.
You know, co different columns talking about symptoms and stuff.
But there was this column that was like all these scientific studies, you know,
the, these things that neuro scientists have learned, you know, that, that
explain, um, why this stuff happens.
And I really appreciated that aspect of it.
I'm somebody who's like very science-based myself, and I think
that like some of the, some of the things that I hear sometimes are like
a little too woowoo for me, you know?
And, and so I like the fact that there was you.
that this really was based on actual research, you know?
Yeah, I agree.
I found the Simply ADHD, uh, course at ADDCA to be super
valuable and I, I recommended it.
Uh, I was at the ADHD Chad Conference in Dallas recently, and I was talking with
like some fellow ADHD creators, you know, content creators and kind of suggesting
to them like, even if you don't want to be a coach, I think taking the Simply
ADHD course would be super beneficial because like you said, like there.
It does a really great job of, yeah, kind of scientifically backing stuff,
but it also, I think they do a really great job of kind of threading the
needle between, I think like two of the, two of the really prominent, uh,
leaders kind of in the ADHD space.
Uh, on one side you'd have like Richard Barkley.
Who's like one of the leading researchers doing so much great
stuff, uh, for ADHD research.
but I find some of his content to be like a little bit dry
and a little bit negative.
Uh, actually a lot, a lot, a bit negative.
It's like really well researched and stuff, but it's not very.
It's not super ADHD friendly to consume because it can feel just like you can
read some Barky stuff and you're like, wow, I learned a lot, but I'm depressed
Um, cuz it's just like, it does not hold anything back.
And then you kind of have, um, you know, you mentioned Driven to
Distraction earlier, which was the first book I read and by, uh, Dr.
Hallowell.
Yep.
And he's sort of the o other side.
He's maybe a little bit more woo woo, uh, but he's also, he really gets I think
what, how people with ADHD communicate and what sort of things they need
to hear to be, to be able to excel.
And so he's got that really kind of positive, uh, mindset.
And I think the Simply ADHD course does a really good job of kind of threading
the needle of not going to woo woo, but still being positive, reinforcing and,
and still having that science backing.
Kind of the, the Barclay side of things,
Yeah.
I think that, um, yeah, that, uh, , I definitely know what you're talking
about, like between those two, those two people in the community.
And I, I agree completely.
I, I really appreciate Barkley's point of view and the negativity
that, that bothers people.
It doesn't bother me as much because I feel like, it's important to
understand those things, you know, that this really can have an impact on
life expectancy and things like that.
Right?
And, and, um, but, but I understand, you know, that.
, um, you know, too negative for some people.
I'm very much against the, the ADHD as a superpower kind of thing.
Like that really tends to rub me the wrong way.
and.
It's kind of funny that you mentioned the, you know, Barkleys content
not being, um, that easy to, uh, to kind of pars for someone with ADHD.
Because one of the first things that I watched, like when I started researching
it after, um, after I saw that talk for my friend was, was one of, um,
Barclay's videos that somebody is put online and it's like, it's a talk he
was giving to parents of kids that had ADHD, but somebody put it in a
YouTube playlist and so they split it up into like these five to 10 minute
long videos and it's like 20 different videos or something in this playlist.
And, and I watched that and I was so grateful to whoever did that because
it was like absolutely something where.
Had I had, I like sat down to watch a two hour video, I would've never
made it through the whole thing.
But like having it in little easy consumable bits, you know,
definitely made a difference.
Yeah, that, that, uh, videos or that whole talk is so great and same thing.
That's the sort of thing that I would've like added, you know, add a bookmark.
I'll definitely check that out later and then never ever come back to it.
But because like, well, the first video is five minutes.
I'll go ahead and watch that.
And then you end up watching, you know, half of 'em or all of
them in one sitting and Yeah.
That, that talk is, it does.
I think you have to, I feel like I warn some people, like if.
If you're feeling really negative about yourself, this maybe isn't
the thing to watch right now, because again, his language is just,
I mean, necessary, but it can be harsh if you're not in a good state.
But if you're really like, no, no, I wanna learn about ADHD, and I'm
okay with the harsh realities of it.
It's so educational and so, uh, yeah, he's just really great at
cutting to the truth with stuff.
And yeah, I think that series is, or that whole talk is totally worth watching.
I'll add a link to that in the show notes.
Um,
I think for me, like one of the biggest things that I got out of the, the classes
at ADDCA, like if I could give people one thing to think about, you know,
that, that we learned in those classes.
I think it's really the, the power of interest.
You know, like how much interest in novelty plays a part in, in, um,
ADHD and the fact that, you know, , that's why we hyper focus, right?
Like, if there's something that we're excited about, it's,
it's, you know, potentially too easy for us to do that thing.
Like, we might wanna do it for days, you know, but, um, but the things
that are hard or the things that you know, are boring or you don't wanna
do for some reason, sometimes for me, it's things that I'm afraid of, right?
You know, those are the things that, that I put off and, and can't get started on.
And so, I've really tried to structure.
A lot of my life around that, you know, like I, I, um, think about this constantly
in my day job, I'm in a position where I work for a startup company and I
was like one of the early employees.
And so I have, you know, a little bit of status there and a good relationship
with the ceo and, and so it's a, it's literally for me it's like how.
Do I plan my work around the fact that I know that my brain doesn't
want to do certain things, you know?
And, and it's been super helpful for me to, to, to think about it that way.
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of people with ADHD end up sort of, uh, accidentally
in tech because there's just a lot of things of interest there, and so it's
really easy to kind of keep following one interest to the next, to the next.
And you're kind of learning all this stuff along the way, which.
Most, uh, you know, most of us with ADHD really love learning all these new things.
And then we kind of, uh, naturally maybe after a lot of job hopping, but naturally
kind of end up in a career, uh, in tech.
Like, that's kinda what happened to me.
I've probably had like 30 jobs in my life and I just sort of accidentally
became like I'm, you know, software developer now and the designer.
Basically because my dad got a copy of Photoshop when I was a kid, and
I played around with it a lot then.
And then I discovered chat rooms and that eventually showed me
like, oh, I can add color to the, like I can edit my font color.
And that all just sort of like, eventually we're, now I'm like programming
apps and stuff because it's just like one sort of tech jumping to the next
and learning that next new thing.
Um, so you, you've had a pretty long career in tech, and I know in sort of like
the, in the early emails before we started the, the podcast, you talked about how
things can get maybe a little bit more difficult as you progress in sort of the,
uh, tech state, you know, as you get.
Further up the ladder and what that might be like.
So yeah.
So I'd love for you to maybe unpack that a little bit.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so when I started off, um, I've actually not been a developer.
My experience has been on the operation side, right?
So I started off like back in the mid nineties as like what was called a
cis admin there, which I think is a job that really doesn't exist anymore.
It does at some places, but, um, you know, I was building servers and
configuring them and taking care of them.
And um, and a lot of what I did was very reactive.
You know, like I, I wasn't very often put in situations where I was, working
on yearlong projects or something.
Right.
It was almost always a fire, you know, or something I had to do right then,
you know, and, and so I was on call, you know, for a while in that sort of role.
And then, I ended up shifting a little bit more into a, a role that, again,
doesn't really exist anymore specifically, but, but we would've called it an
application administrator back then where I was like deploying applications
and configuring them and stuff and, and troubleshooting problems with them.
And again, you know, very reactive stuff.
And my time horizon usually.
I was focused on the next big software release we did.
Right.
You know, and that wasn't usually more than like a month or two months out.
Right.
So, so again, a similar thing.
Never really thinking about year long projects or anything like that.
And then as I started to move up in my career, you know, I, I got
a senior role and, and now I'm a, a staff developer advocate.
And, you know, I've been in this position where, , you know, there's
a point where you are expected to just be able to manage projects.
Right.
You know, which is something that is, is kind of like mind boggling to me because
project management is a specialty, right?
There's people who learn how to do project management and they're very good at it.
And I think specifically working more on the operation side in tech, that at
least in the past it was less likely to have dedicated project management people
for operational stuff, you know, for like upgrading things or, or stuff like that.
It was usually a lot more focused around like business projects
coming from the business side.
Right.
And, and so, um, . it became kind of obvious to me, like it was something
that I just knew about myself that I wasn't like, good at dealing with
those long-term things, you know?
And, and so when I got put into a position where, um, I, I had to start worrying
about those kinds of things more, I really noticed that it was difficult for me.
And, and I think that, that it's the time blindness stuff, you know?
And, and it's like, for me, when I'm looking at my list of tasks for the.
It's so easy to focus on the things that are due today or next week and not think
about the thing that is maybe gonna be very pivotal, you know, pivotal for the
company in a year from now, you know?
so that's something that I've, uh, again, tried to keep in mind.
It's something I've learned about myself and I try to do what
I can to, to adjust for that.
But, but I think that that's a, a pretty typical thing, you know, when you hear.
Like on the software engineering side, when you hear people talk about what
it means to be a, a senior or a staff engineer or a principal, a lot of
times it's very much, you know, uh, about that idea of like, you know,
having a big project that you're the one who kind of drives through to
success, you know, and, and, um, and I think that it is, uh, it is probably a
struggle for, you know, a lot of folks.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've, so I've been at the same company now for a little over eight
years, which is wild because I think before that, , before that, I don't
think I had been at any company for more than two years in a row.
Uh, much less, yeah, eight.
So I've been here for a long time and I've kind of run into that similar sort
of thing, you know, when you've been there for a while, there's just sort of this.
Typical sort of expected trajectory.
Um, and I've done some of that.
And then you hit a point where it's like, well, this does,
all my strengths are gone now.
Like, I, like I was really excelling right before I got to this spot,
and now it's like I can't lean on any of the stuff I'm really good at.
And because of the way, like my brain works, it's like I can't
just like adapt to this new role because it, it just doesn't fit.
Who I am, like what, what, where my brain is gonna excel cause
I can't find that interest.
And that that longer term planning and stuff just really doesn't align with me.
And so I think, I think it's really important to kind of, have a good grasp
of that and sort of know yourself.
Um, and I mean that again, that's why I like taking that.
Not that this is like a big ad for like adca, uh, simply ADHD course, but a lot
of learning through that is just like accepting who I am and how my brain works.
And obviously there's ways you can stretch that and, um,
you know, try out new things.
, but knowing that like interest really is important for me to
be able to excel at something.
And there's ways that I can kind of like manipulate that and manufacture interest
in certain ways, but I have to like, I can't just know that, hey, if I think
this is really important, I'm gonna be able to do it because that's just not
the reality of how my migraine works.
And so I think there's so much of when you have ADHD.
You have to just sort of like ignore a lot of common sense
because it's not common for us.
We have kind of this whole other way of understanding things and I think the
more, the better you understand that, the better you're gonna be able to make kind
of future important decisions for yourself and the roles that you sort of take on.
Yeah.
I found myself working at small companies a lot.
So the startup that I'm at now, I joined as, uh, employee number four, you
know, . And we're at like 25 people now.
And, uh, I've been at bigger companies and I definitely felt like I struggled a
lot more when there was more bureaucracy.
And, and I think that those are the kinds of places where you're more
gonna be asked to like drive those projects that are like yearlong
Yeah.
Big initiatives that involve the entire business or something like that.
Um, the other thing that's kind of funny is that, um, I've, I've heard from a lot
of other folks who work in tech who have ADHD that this was the case for them.
I think it was very good at being on call.
, you know, because it's very reactive, you know, it's like, you know, you've
got this one thing in front of you that you have to deal with because it's a
really big deal, you know, and you don't, you, you just can't, you know, allow
yourself to like, get distracted and, and you can't put it off because your
pager went off and everybody's gonna know that you, you know, you're the
person on the hook for fixing this thing.
And
Right, right.
I think that, um, I think that that was something that I was,
that I did pretty well at.
And again, you know, this is a conversation I've had with, you
know, friends on Twitter who are, who've been on call and they've,
they've said the same thing.
And, and so to me it's, it's about like reactive versus proactive.
and it's about those timelines and the time blindness, and then like
you said, the, the level of interest.
I think that like, those are kind of like the three sort of, you know,
areas that I think of when I, when I evaluate like what's gonna be a good
fit for me and how I can make my job fit more with how my brain works.
Yeah.
And kind of along with what you said with like smaller companies, uh, a lot
of times roles at smaller companies, you wear a lot more hats, which is a.
Which is an easy way to generate interest because you're kind of
jumping from this thing to that thing to like, oh, I guess I'm gonna help
out with marketing today, or like, whatever the case is with that company.
And as companies get bigger, like a lot of those roles get more and more
specialized, which means you're not.
Getting to try out kind of all these different things.
You get sort of, maybe other people don't feel this, but with ADHD you
feel kind of pigeonholed like, oh, I only get to do this one thing now.
Like that's not very exciting anymore.
And so it can be difficult when you are at sort of one of those larger companies,
which I think is also why a lot of people with ADHD start their own company because
it's really fun to kind of juggle.
Tackling all the different tasks at the same time.
And it doesn't mean we're gonna excel at all of them, but at least there's
that sort of, that urgency and that interest that really sort of drives
all of that happening at the same time.
Yeah, absolutely.
yeah.
So I think this is a great time to transition to, uh,
what I call shiny objects.
And this is a part of the show where, where we can just sort of, uh, share
something, something that we're nerding about lately or something that's,
uh, really grabbed our interest.
So, uh, what's a shiny object for.
Well, so the big one for me, I've been nerding out pretty seriously about
this, uh, game called Marvel Snap.
which is, uh, I've been playing it on mobile, but I think
there's a PC version of it too.
Um, I've actually played the, the, the iOS game on my Mac.
It's one of those apps that'll like run natively on a Mac that's
using the, the newer Mac Os.
And, um, it is super addictive.
It's by, uh, designed.
, some of the folks who worked on Hearthstone, you know, um, and, um,
just seems to, it's very clever, you know, the way that they've set it up,
the, the, the sort of abilities that the different characters have are,
are really, you know, they fit really well with like the actual characters.
You know, they've done a really good job of like designing like
the individual characters and.
. It's really fun, but I feel like it is kind of more challenging playing
this game with ADHD because, uh, you there are things where like,
I'll, I'll forget stuff, right?
So like right now I am playing a deck that, um, that the, the
sort of meta of it is that I want to discard cards like as I go.
And then there's a card I have that I hopefully get to play
at the end that brings back all the cards that I've discard.
Ah.
so I kind of get to make this big move like for free later on, you know, and
bring on a, a bunch of, um, a bunch of power onto the board and I'll, I'll
forget what cards I've discarded right?
by the time I get to the end.
And I just don't, I don't, it's kind of like, okay, I guess I'm
gonna see what I get this time.
But it's, it's really fun.
And, um, if you like mobile games and if you like those games, like, um, heart
Stone or Magic, the Gathering, you know, things in, in that kind of genre, I
think that it's very worth checking out.
Yeah, that's, it's, that game is like a dopamine engine.
It just, there's so many little unlocks and they'll like, oh, you know, cause
you'll play a game and you'll get the points to be able to, oh, I can
unlock, um, like where my character will jump a little bit out of the
frame and then I'll get another unlock.
Well, where the card will be like 3d.
And all these little things that, or you'll get like alternate
faces and it's just so, uh, yeah.
For people that are Marvel fans, it's, it's a dangerous game.
Um, because you will get sucked in and the, the matches are so quick too, and it,
They're like a couple minutes or.
Yeah.
Which is, which is dangerous because it's always like, well, I can do one more.
You know, it's like, you'll, you'll win a few and you're
like, well, I gotta keep going.
I'm on a good streak.
And then you'll lose one and you're like, well, I can't end with a
loss, so I gotta do it again.
Uh, it's, yeah, it's, it's an awesome game, which is bad news for me.
I have to take it off my phone, I still play it.
I'll play it on my iPad, but then that way I'm not tempted to do it on the
phone cuz like, oh my gosh, I'll just lose hours, uh, playing something like
I definitely had some nights when I first started playing it where I was like, oh,
it's 4:00 AM and I have to be up at seven.
I guess I'd better go to bed.
Yep.
Surprise,
Yep.
Cool.
Well, my shiny objects, uh, my shiny object.
I just recently did the CHADD Conference and I got to meet
Dani Donovan, which was awesome.
And while I was there, I, she gave me an early copy of her anti planner, which,
uh, is such a cool, uh, little book.
So not a little book.
It's like over 300 pages.
So I've been doing like, Um, a review video of it, which will
probably, which is probably out by the time this, uh, podcast airs.
Um, but it is such a great little, uh, it's such a great book.
It.
Chock full of so many different strategies.
It's a sort of thing where you could just like where you're feeling like,
man, I'm just feeling so overwhelmed with all my stuff, and you can open it up and
there's a tab for overwhelmed, and then you can go there and there's just all
these like very gamified strategies and advice and like checklists and games.
There's just so much stuff in there that it's, it's a really great
starting point I think for when.
You when you hit kind of one of those stall moments of ADHD,
like, I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stuck, or I'm unmotivated, or
whatever that the case might be.
I think it's gonna be a really great resource for
people and I'm excited for it.
I think she announced it like a year ago and then like, Printing delays
and all sorts of things like happened.
But then she took advantage of that and poured more into it and she's
like, well if I can't print it now, I'm gonna make it even better.
And I think it's really paid off cuz it's like every page you're
like, this page is gorgeous.
Uh, it's like so well designed and I'm a big design nerd, so I'm a fan of that.
Um, yeah, she's really crushed it with this, uh, the anti planner.
It's
I'm a big fan of Dani's and I'm one of the folks who pre-ordered
it like right away as soon as
she announced it.
And so I've been like waiting and waiting.
uh, but it's been, um, she's handled it really well.
I think she's, you know, sent out these emails with like, PDFs of
some of the stuff that's gonna be in the book, which is nice.
but, uh, But it's been, it's been really funny sometimes to see like her, her
messages, because she'll be like, oh, I have to apologize for this thing
not getting, getting done on time.
And it's like, we're people with ADHD, right?
And so , so it's like, you know what?
You don't really need to
Yeah.
Like, we get it, we get it.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I think a lot of it's not been under her control anyway.
But, um, but no, I'm definitely looking forward to getting my copy.
I, I have one coming.
Awesome.
Cool.
Well, thank you so much for being here, rich.
Uh, it was awesome to hang out and, uh, us to catch up a little bit again.
Uh, where, where can people go if they want to find out
more about what you're doing?
So I would've said Twitter before, like four weeks ago.
Right, right.
I'm still there, but like I'm, I'm a lot less, uh, less excited about being there.
I've tried Mastodon, I'm using it some, but it's, it's, it's not the same.
So the thing that I would do is, um, I actually have a link tree,
so it's like link T, what is it?
t.ee or the url?
we'll put the, we'll put the link in the show notes so it's uh, easy for
yeah.
But that has links to my Twitter and my Mastodon and um, I actually
use some streaming on Twitch.
I've been streaming Marvel Snap lately, some, um, and,
uh, a few other things there.
So that would be the best place to go to, to find out where I'm at.
Awesome.
Well, thanks again so much.
This is great.
Yeah.
Thanks, Jesse.
That's our show, thank you so much for listening.
I especially want to thank our VIP patrons, Alex Magaña, Charise Carlson, Dan
Ott, Luce Carter, and Richard Stephens.
Your support helps make it possible for me to do the work that I do.
If you wanna support the show, you can go to patreon.com/jessej, or you
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Full show notes and transcripts are available at adhdnerds.com.