Thank you so much for joining. It's wonderful to see everyone. Thank you for joining. We are so glad, to have you here. We are, live on Facebook.

We are also recorded for podcast and video if anyone wants the recording after. Also, you to Larissa for the ASL interpreter here for, for that work. And we're thrilled to have Rabbi Dina Nyman, from Riverdale, Kahila, who's gonna introduce our speaker in a moment, and also Rabbi Barry Gellman from Denver, Kahila, and their congregants as partners, as synagogue partners in expanding Jewish learning as it relates to Halacha and to theology and ethics and coming closer to a Kadish Baruch Hu and fulfilling, Dabr Hashem. So I want to thank my colleagues, Jasmine and Emma, for being here as well, and for their general partnership. And, Rav Chaim Ovadia is going be giving three sessions over the coming months.

Great to learn from him, a great Sephardi POSIK and thinker. And I'm going to hand it over to my wonderful colleague, Rabadina Naiman, to introduce him.

Hi. Thank you, Erev Tov, everyone. For your shoot, Rav Shmuli, Rav Veri, and everyone who works at Riala Sethek, and of course, Rav Chaim. It's really an honor to be a part. I know Maishwal feels so, so privileged to have the opportunity to share Shireen with my community through via Uri L'Tzedek.

And just we're so, we've already heard some wonderful shiurim, and tonight is no different. We have with us Rabbi Chaim Ovaadhya. I'm going to say a brief bio, but then I just would like to share why it is me who was giving this intro. So just first, Rabbi Chaim O'Vadhyayab was born and raised in Usherayim. He was shaped by strong Zionist ideals and a rich Sephardic rabbinic tradition that values Tanakh, Hebrew poetry, and the sciences alongside the study of Talmud and Allah and promotes a humane inclusive approach to Judaism.

He was ordained by chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, studied Talmud at Barilan University, and earned an MA in Hebrew literature from UCLA. Over more than thirty years, for more than thirty years, he has served as a community rabbi in diverse communities across Israel, South America, and both coasts of The United States, and he's been a faculty member at the Academy for Jewish Religion of California since 2002. Alongside his rabbinic leadership, he's been an active he's been very active in social advocacy, promoting inclusion and practical, empowering halachic solutions, and has reached thousands worldwide through teaching, podcasts, YouTube, and distance learning. He's currently teaching at Ramaz High School in Manhattan, and that's actually where I was Zohad to meet Rav Chaim because this past summer we were involved in a cohort called by Reb Haim. I didn't know him from before, but immediately I was struck not only by his brilliance and his breadth of knowledge of Tanakh Baal Peh and Gamarabaal Peh and just how much is in his his mind, how much information he has, how much Torah he has.

But he is a genuine Tamil Haqqam because he doesn't only merge his Torah learning but his Menschelach Kite, and as we spoke about before, his inclusivity. And he actually became a dear friend to me for that one week and a half. I don't remember how long it was, but just to learn with him, to talk with him, to learn from him. And the way in which he engages everyone and sees everyone with infinite value and covered a brios, there's so much not only to learn from the written Torah or the Torah Shvaalpa that he has, but his life living Torah. And so for me, it I, I just wanted to express everyone who we're, we're learning from a person who's not only a tremendous Talmud scholar, Torah scholar, but someone who is a genuine, Talim Elohim, everyone is a Talim Elohim, but he's someone who you see it, you see it on his face, you see it through his actions, and you see it through his kindness and chesed and inclusivity.

So it's really it's a real privilege for me, and thank you, Rav Shmoli, for giving me this privilege to be able to introduce Harav Chaim O'Vadia, who will undoubtedly just give us so much Torah and his sweetness and his his thoughtfulness will come through as well. So there you

Wow. Thank you so much. Now I don't know what to say. It was an introduction. I do really appreciate Ravdina.

It really was a pleasure meeting you and having those sessions together in Israel. It was really, really beautiful. Hopefully, we'll we'll meet again in person, to do some learning. I will start before sharing the, want to bring, to present the the, issue, And I'm very glad that, you know, we have Jill here as an interpreter. She introduced me to the hard of hearing community.

I wanna make also make sure that whatever I say, I don't want it to sound as patronizing to anyone with disabilities or shortcoming. And, also, the definition is we don't use the word deaf or hard of hearing. I'm I'll explain how I came to discuss this this issue, this matter. When I was the rabbi of the community in in Rockville, Maryland, the which is in proximity to the University of Gallaudet. There's a which is in the University of the Hard of Hearing.

I was blessed with having a a community of so this is okay. I think if I use the term deaf just just for ease, you know, it's okay. It's acceptable.

It's deaf and hard of hearing. Yes. That's correct.

And hard of hearing. Right. So that will be the okay. So first of all, he told me to speak slower, you know, when I give it, if I give it rush, it told me also, reminded me to always translate everything that I say in Hebrew to English for the sake of the interpreter, But also exposed me to problems that I would not have been aware of otherwise. Even though I had friends who were hard of hearing and I dealt I think indirectly with the with the community when I discussed the issue of microphone on Shabbat.

I wrote an article on that saying that you know if you think of it we all use microphones on Shabbat. We because we talk to people who have hearing devices. And when you when you have a hearing device, it's basically a microphone. So, all people were arguing back and forth. No, they need the microphone.

It's I said, yeah, but it's not it's not a life threatening situation for you to talk to them. Why are you talking to people with with hearing devices? So, I sort of got into this discussion and I had this very nice community of the deaf and hard of hearing in my in my synagogue. We became good friends. We even had one we we did several for the deaf and hard of hearing when when we switched over the role of interpreter.

Sometimes I would lead and Jill would interpret and sometimes they would lead and they would interpret for me what is being said. Because I want to feel like on both sides of the of that equation. The one moment where I sort of understood what it means to be to be excluded was at the Bat Mitzvah of Larissa's daughter. Relations with us here. And I think it was their daughter Daniela or Alexandra who had a bat mitzvah.

And she invited the people from the show. And I came and naturally you know I I didn't I didn't look at the at the at the cards at the seating cards. I just went to the to the to the table where all the people from my shoulder, and I sat with them, and they were all the the community of the the deaf and hard of hearing. And I sat there, and then and and there was music. People were dancing.

The hearing for the music and those who are hard of hearing would beat and together was a beautiful, beautiful sight. And then at one point, the music was over, people sat down to eat, and the conversation started. And in my table, on, at my table, the conversation was only at, in sign language. And I couldn't get a word of it. People were talking so fast with their hands and and and body motions and everything included.

And I'm sitting there speechless. There's nothing like and I also noticed how people could call each other from across the hall which we can't do. You know, you're at a wedding, you sit at the table and someone is at the buffet and you wanted to bring you whatever it is, you're you're not going to scream, you know, top of your of your lungs, hey, bring me some brisket, right? But with ASL, you could know across the room. Send the message.

That was very interesting and intriguing. That was a positive side of me understanding like the the a little bit the community. But then at one point I got an email from a dear friend who's a congregate in the synagogue. And he told me that he participated at a Shabbat for the blind and deaf. And he was at that Shabbat as an interpreter.

And he explained to me that interpretation in a for the deaf and blind is very very difficult. It has to be tactile. It's it it is transmitted through motion, through through touch. But a hearing person cannot convey through touch to someone who is deaf and blind. The barriers are too great.

So the way this is done, the speaker, let's say the speaker or the leader of the is a is a someone who is a hearing person. That person is interpreted by someone who is hearing and knows ASL by an interpreter. Then a someone who's deaf or hard of hearing transmits the message from ASL to touch to the person who is deaf and blind. So there's a lot of participant in this complex process and it's beautiful that people really took the time and and and energy to do to create the Shabbaton. But there was a there was a problem.

What was the problem? Here, I'm sharing my screen. This is the article that I wrote following that his question. I'm going to read just part of the of his of his question. He wanted to get an aliyah.

That's what he writes to me. He says, into our reading, during Shabbat services, the Gabai first chose a hearing person. For first Aliyah, second one, another hearing person. Third, hearing person. I went to him to ask if he can give deaf blind people some opportunities.

It was a bit evasive and went to main rabbi for discussion. He then chose a deaf person for fourth and another one for fifth. And finally he went ahead with a deaf mind for six and seven. After the service he explained that when you read for Torah reading you need to speak clearly for 10 men to hear respond. So the three first are considered core requirement and the others are additional.

So, you can understand that my my congregant, my friend was really really hurt by that. Right? He he wrote to me this in the doc, all caps are his. I hope to make change some changes with an emphasis that we need to be flexible only for one Shabbat. Only for one Shabbat.

That's and he asked me to to help him with it. So, when I heard that question, First of all, really explained me greatly to to hear that he felt that way. Excluded with good intentions, right? By people who are strict with Halacha. They're they organize the Shabaton to accommodate people hard of hearing.

But there are certain barriers that they cannot pass. And so I said okay I have to I have to delve into it. I have to do some research on it. And I always start with with the I think everyone anyone of us who does some research, We start with precedence, but we also I I I'd like to to hope we also start with analogies. I like to look at cases that have similar and different components and and and figure out the difference between them.

And the thing that came to mind right away when I thought about the restrictions regarding the deaf and hard of hearing from getting an Aliyah to the Torah. Was the way we treat the blind. Because in in the Talmud and then later on in Halakah, there are restrictions both on the deaf and hard of hearing and on the blind. Both of them are not supposed to get an Aliyah. For different reasons.

The heart of hearing, the deaf, mostly the deaf. The hard of hearing was less of a problem at the time of the Talmud. But at the time of the Talmud people believed that deaf, the deaf people have are are not intelligent. They put them in the same category. Unfortunately, with the the with the minor and with someone who is who suffers insanity, different levels of insanity.

They thought that people are the the deaf deaf people cannot commit and this bias by the way exists until today. For a lot of people are informed. One one of my dear friends who worked as a scientist at NIH, a brilliant woman, a genius. Lost her hearing maybe at the age of a year and a half or two and as you know, people who lose their hearing at the very young age can can communicate but with like some broken words or broken syllables and so when she would meet hearing people, she would convey, you know, her name and some messages and sort of for them was like a broken language. And so when I was with her, I immediately introduced her.

This is my friend so and so. And she works at NIH in molecular biology research. And people are, oh my god. She must be genius. Yeah.

But you would not have thought that because you judge her only based on that what what you hear, right? So, I had to do that. So, my question was this, why is it that the deaf and the hard of hearing remain within the same category. Since the time of the Talmud, whereas blind people are getting a discount. We do call blind people to the Torah.

We give them an aliyah. Let's So let's define this. Maybe not in every shul, someone who lost their sight completely will get an aliyah. But in most shuls, someone who is unable to see without glasses will get an Aliyah. So that person in ancient times would be considered blind.

Undeserving of an an Aliyah. So we could say we could have argued that through the seeing device that person now becomes a seeing person, right? So, I wanted to study the history of Halakah in treating the blind and in treating the deaf and also see if that discount is only like or this allowance that we give the the heart of seeing the blind is only with or with something else. So now here you could answer by text or someone who, you know, who would think that maybe we can answer this question off the bat before I go into the research. I start with the hypothesis.

I had an hypothesis. Asking myself, why did the rabbis, this is how I phrase the question before I started the research, right? Why did the rabbis show show great, I would call it greater empathy. To the people who are hard of seeing than to the people who are hard of hearing. Ravdina?

Perhaps because there are models in Tanakh and in the Gemara of people who couldn't see and were valued like Rav Shey Seder or Yosef or, of course, Yitzhak. And perhaps seeing those as models and people who are post skim, they clearly were alive. And the Gemara, actually, it's Pesach now. Right? We say if someone is Chav Sipoyetze at Mitzrayim and against Ravacha Bar Yaakov, we saw that, you know, they are Chav because they are everyone left Mitzrayim.

You know? People who could see or couldn't didn't see. You know? They did that whole teaching with Bavur Zerubbenin Uzeh. So and that didn't work.

That Gaza Roshava didn't work. So perhaps it's really more of having models. We have more models of people who couldn't see rather than those who who

Couldn't hear.

Couldn't hear.

Right. So just to to again to say what Ravtina said. The the rabbis, the authors of Halacha were familiar with or other authors of Halakha, rabbis or who themselves could not see. So, they have a certain empathy for them. They understand their case.

Yes. I see Stephanie has her hand up and Ravshmulli. Yes.

Rabbi Abadia, thank you so much for this webinar so far. I'm actually a current congregant of Magendavide, and I've heard a lot about you. So it's really nice to hear your insights so far. What I would propose as the answer to your question is perhaps because so much of Judaism revolves around audio and responsiveness to audio. That could be why someone who is blind might have been given more of a precedence because without the sight, they still would be able to hear and respond even with some signaling or something like that, but someone who has hearing loss in whatever capacity wouldn't be able to partake in a mitzvah in that way.

Right. Thank thank you so much. I agree. That's a different definitely a a valid argument. Rav Shmueli?

Yes. I wanna think about it more around legal responsibility, but I'm not prepared to speak about that yet. But just to raise the the question even further, that based on the Torah's anthropomorphism anthropomorphism, you know, unless you're my Manodian, God hears and God sees. God Hakodesh Baruch who hears the cry of Hagar and responds. Hakodesh Baruch who sees the suffering of the Israelites in Mitsrayim, and hears their cries, we see in Shemot.

God sees and hears. And so it almost feels like it's godly to have these capacities, and that's part of the problem we have to get over as well is to understand the nonliteral nature of that.

Right. And I will add to this also, now that we're saying that and what Stephanie mentioned, that things that we take for granted like Shema Israel. How do you translate Shema Israel? It's not here oh Israel. It's understand oh Israel.

Right? We have to get to this understanding. So I'll show you some of the that I looked at. And if I don't have time to show all the all the sources, I'll share them later but I'll I'll try to get to the conclusion before we finish this our discussion. So, I looked, here it's all in English.

I'm not going to bother you with the Hebrew and translating back and forth. So, this is what the two lived in the 13 in the fourteenth century and is considered the one of the the three main pillars of Jewish law says the following. Only one reads the Torah. The and the canter does not read with him. According to the law.

Today, our custom is that the cantor reads because most people cannot read from the scroll and therefore cannot represent others. This is the Ashkenazi custom until today. That when you get an Aliyah, you don't read. The representative, the the the layener reads for you. In the Yemenite custom, everybody reads for themselves like it was in Talmudic times and the Sephardim, we are in between.

There is a lay in her. There is a who reads the Parasha. For those who cannot read on their own. But if the the Ole, if the person who gets Aliyah wants to read their own part, they're allowed to do so.

ideally, the tool says Rabbi Nwakov says, if you cannot read the Aliyah, you should not go up. Because you're supposed to read your own Aliyah. How did it work that we appoint a representative to read your your Aliyah? He says, they think they they do know how to read and if they will not receive an aliyah, they will quarrel with the canter. I'm sure you've never seen, I hope you have never experienced people quarreling with the canter or with the rabbi in your synagogue.

It was therefore instituted that a knowledgeable canter will read yet the still needs to read quietly alongside the canter. So his blessing will not be in vain. If one cannot read alongside the the canter, he should not be given the aliyah. And it does not make sense for him to say a blessing for the reading of the canter. However, if you can repeat that which is being read to him, it is fine.

So, the the the laws of Aliyah are pretty strict. I think that if you we consider many synagogues who are not part of the maybe modern Orthodox or Orthodox community and are more maybe cure of synagogues. A lot of the people who get in Aliyah cannot really do what the tour requires people to do. So, Rabbi Yosef Karol explains, he says, that this is based on a ruling by Rabbi who says that if the Ole is able to join the Hebrew letters into words and read with the canter, it is considered reading. But if it is a but it is impossible for the Ole to say a blessing on the canter's reading without reading at all by himself.

So, again, you have to the the has to be able to read what is being read to him. So, Now, following that statement that Ola must be able to read with the with the cantor discusses a case of a blind person. He says, I disagree with whoever all this thing that what that a blind person does not read from the Torah. He demand that he cannot read by heart. But if someone else stands by him and reads and the blind person recites the blessing, it is fine.

Right? I have also found that the author of Aguda, another book wrote that a blind go ahead can get an Aliyah but one cannot rely on their rulings against all the luminaries I've mentioned earlier. So, Rabbi Yosef Ka'ul says that a blind person who cannot read, that cannot see the Torah, even though he knows it by hearts, cannot read alongside the Cantor. Because there were those who argued, since the Cantor is a representative for the Ole, right? Let the canter read and the blind person can read by heart.

So, is very adamant. This cannot be done. However, despite all this, other Rabbi's ruled against him. Rabbi Modi Hayafed, the author of the Levush writes, when there is a need to appease the blind man and prevent disputes, we can rely on the which holds that one cannot read with the reader because when the Torah was given, Moshe alone spoke and the people kept silent. And to this, If you are following what the, you know, the the hierarchy of Halakha, What word should we say when we see this ruling by the we should say, wow.

Wow. You're you're now turning the Halakha on its head. The original Halaka is that you, the must read the Torah yourself. Then, we said, because you cannot read, we will appoint a representative for you. And that representative, the would read the Torah for you.

But you must be able to read. You must be able to follow or you must at least be able to say the blessing. And if you cannot see, you cannot read. You cannot get the aliyah. Says no, the Zohar which we really should not consider to be a authority.

The says that when you get an Aliyah and you stand next to the later, you should not be reading out loud because it was only one person who received the Torah. Rule of thumb is that when the Zohar contradicts Halacha, we go with the with the established rulings and not with the Zohar. But note what Rabbi Yaffe writes. I if you noticed he says why do we have to why do we have to do that? Because we need to appease the blind man and prevent disputes.

So here is an emotional consideration. It's I know that in the Hebrew it sounds different. It's not It doesn't mean to appease him so he wouldn't fight with people. It means to make him feel good. We want we want that person to feel good in the synagogue.

So we are going to find a way within within to allow allow people to get an aliyah. Then we have of Greece is like seventeenth century and this would be the law that a blind man cannot read by heart only refers to one who reads for others. Such as the cantor and the reader. So, again, they were were attacking the Halakah about the blind person not getting from different angles. Saying no, it only refers to to people you can give the if you reach for for others, but for himself, of course, he could have it.

Then there there are cases where they said that people gotten Aliyah is buying people. I'm I'm moving ahead because we we're short of time. Okay. Then, I I wanna skip this and Where is this? I have one source on that.

No, okay. I I skipped that source. All all of these are I have so many sources like I'm I need to get this. Okay, so this is the, this is the, the testimony of Rabbi Tak Lamponti, also seventeenth century, Italy quoted by Rabbi Elazab, Waldenberg, The in 1678 was the exact date. The blind scholar of Prague who lost his eyesight at the age of two was called up to the Torah in all of Germany and Italy.

In Modena, Rabbi Ashalevi was given an aliyah even though he was not a scholar and in Ferrara, even an unearned blind man gets an Aliyah. This is a proof that the practice spread among the Sephardim. The rabbi who prevented the blind scholar from getting Aliyah aired by shaming that person publicly. May Hashem atone for his sin. So, again, again, we see those that allow blind men to to get an Aliyah and I have a source somewhere here that not only for an Aliyah and that is the that is really the I think the crucial point.

One could argue that Aliyah La Torah is a rabbinical thing. So as long as you say the blessing that's fine. But there's a that even the which is done in the case of the elaborate law of if God forbid a a a man dies without children according to Torah law. His widow should marry should get married to the the level of law with the with one of his brothers. But we don't do that today.

We do with that removal of the shoe in front of Badin. It's a complicated ritual. But all agree that in order for that ritual to be valid the members of the must see the woman removing the shoe from the foot of the brother-in-law. And they say, what if they are hard of seeing, they could barely see And they only see it with glasses. They said they're basically blind.

And the answer is there are many great scholars who lost their eyesight. And we cannot condemn them all. We cannot put them all in this category of blind. And that is the clue to understanding the the different approach like you suggested before. The difference between treating the blind and the deaf.

So I'll go briefly through several more sources and then I'll open for questions. Again, the Hayadam writes, who cannot be said with less than 10 people. And even at a time of need, a minor cannot be counted. The same applies to Torah reading. A deaf person who can read but cannot who can hear but cannot speak or who can speak but not hear is considered and be meaning intelligent and can be counted for a minion but one who can neither hear nor speak has the same status of a minor or a of a mindless person.

That's that's the ruling the of and you see that I kept the word means ones with open ears. And which is one who cannot hear or speak literally means a fool. But it is used in other literature like mentioned before. One who cannot be held responsible for his actions because of lesser intelligence. Then, we find rulings such as this, a deaf person can be a cantor and read the Torah for others.

And this obviously applies to one who uses a hearing aid. A non speaking deaf person cannot be counted for minyan. This is even this is Rabbi Yosef. Even if he studied in the special school for the non speaking deaf where the students acquire dot intelligence. This is the twentieth century Posek.

In his mind, people acquire intelligence in a in a special school for the non speaking for the deaf. And here's what Rabbi Yosef says in the whenever the rabbis included the deaf with minors and the mentally ill, the meant one who does not hear at all. But if one hears when people speak loudly or with a device, he is not considered deaf, only hard of hearing. One who hears with hearing aid, he writes trumpets because that used to be like the old hearing aid will look like a like a trumpet. It's considered pikka.

An elderly scholar who is hard of hearing and cannot hear one who stands four feet away unless he yells and uses a trumpet to let the sound into his ears can serve as a judge. This teaches us that hearings or a device is considered hearing. So I'll stop here with all the and I I want to wrap this up. There are more sources but here's here's here's what the conclusion that I drew from this and other these and other sources. It seems that the rabbis were able to show empathy to the blind because there were many scholars who were blind.

Either a people who were who were who were able to see in their youth and then lost their eyesight at a later age. Or even people who were blind from birth or from a young age. But were able to learn the Torah by heart. Even before there was broil. They were able to learn the Torah by heart.

So Rabbi's empathize with them. One, they are scholars and second, it could happen to me. Many rabbis saw themselves in that place. This could be me. And the moment you empathize with the subject of halakha it it sounds a bit selfish but it happens across many many different themes of Halakha.

And I think that I can in this form I can definitely mention the Aguna. Right? The reason that Aguna is such a problem. And it has not been solved for so long. Because the rabbis who write the none of them can imagine or experience the status of an Agun.

Imagine, I think if we would put the through the ordeal of an Aguna, if we had a Diane who writes a live as an for a while. Maybe the the willingness to write would would have changed but this unfortunately is not the case. But with the with the hard of hearing, with the deaf, especially before the I would say the invention of sign language, each in its the in its country and Jill, correct me if I'm wrong, I think, if I'm not wrong, that ASL, American Sign Language, was introduced to America by Sephardic Jew. That's what I saw in the Jewish Museum in Philadelphia. So, I'm following the tradition of of that respect and obviously, it has to do with numbers.

When greater numbers of people live together, they were able to develop a language. And already in the Talmud, they speak about that they speak about kind of signs. But the rabbis could not empathize with someone who was deaf from birth or lost his hearing at a young age. Because those people either could not master the Torah the way other people do or even if they did, they didn't have the means to convey to others. So, the for the scholars, there's no scholar at their level who they can empathize with but then there's another element that is a bit tricky but I think I think it's true but I would like love to hear from you.

I think this bias towards the deaf community by people who are either hearing or seeing and do not understand the ordeals of someone who cannot hear. And that is again, it's it's it's a bit problematic but I ask people and you could ask around you. I ask people, who do you think has it has greater difficulties in life? Someone who cannot hear or someone who cannot see. And almost everyone will tell you that losing your eyesight or not not being able to see is a much greater hurdle than losing your hearing.

However, the our input, the way we we process information, the auditory input that we have is about 90% of the data that we process is auditory and not through eyesight. You close your eyes, you will be able to process a lot of information. But if you close your ears, to be in complete silence, you are cut off from the world. But people do not understand that. I doing some research on that and on that specific topic, I I learned more through the book by a book by Charles Deutsch about neuroplasticity.

There's a there's a chapter dedicated to to hearing and he speaks about an amazing man by the name of Doctor Tomatis. It's a worth looking up. Who who discovered a lot of interesting about the way we hear, the way we process audio from from the from the womb. And I think that this because most people think that it is much harder for a blind person to to progress through life. Then when they compare a blind person who masters certain things and and can communicate easily with people versus a deaf person who they think is sort of being bogged down by a handicap that's not really a handicap.

They say, look what that person did. Despite their handicap and look where you stand. So, so we have those two problems throughout the generations above all, the greater problems of the unwillingness to reconsider values. The unwillingness to to say if in the time of the Mishna, there was a category called the hard of hearing, the the non intelligent person that's put it this way and the minor is because they did not understand what deafness means. What we don't have the willingness to do it unfortunately.

So just to conclude on a sort of a happy note. The ruling that I issued at the end was after reading all that I said I wrote that many of the people who go up to the Torah cannot understand Hebrew and they read the in in phonetics, right? So, they're really not saying the they don't even know a lot of don't know what what they're saying. They don't understand the reading. Yet, we give them the Aliyah.

So, we accept the fact that you don't have to be on the same language. We already at least in this ceremonial Aliyah we accept that it's enough that you know that you read the Torah. That you understand the context of of the Torah reading. It's the recognition of the importance of the Torah that counts and the and the and the canter became the one who reads for everyone. And based on that when my my friend who wrote the initial letter he would get an Aliyah once in a while in the shul.

But whenever he would get an Aliyah, he would try to say the he would try to to say the the blessing out loud. But it was not his first language. So to speak, right? So the next time that he got an aliyah and Jill, you were at the synagogue at the time. You recall that?

So he got the aliyah and I told everyone in advance that he's going to sign the and not say it. Or or in other words he would say it in ASL. And the weird answer amen in ASL. Jill how do you say amen? I forgot.

I'm sorry. Amen. Amen. Amen. So, he signed the and the whole shoe went, amen, like, amen.

And and then and then we hugged each other, and we cried because it was really, really a very emotional moment. And and I I it really helped him, you know, feel more more included. We still have a long way to go. We're still trying to do, you know, here and there, but that is and that's why the article that I wrote, I called it God Speaks ASL. So, to go with the anthropomorphic theme of Ravshmuli And that another anthropomorphism.

We should say and God designed to Moshe saying let the deaf and the hard of hearing get an aliyah. So I'll conclude here and open for questions. I see that Joel and Rabbi Barry. Yes, Joel?

Hi. Thank you so much. I know I was

a

late joiner to this, but I wanted to ask a couple of questions. First of all, it's amazing to hear about your work with Gallaudet, and my sister, I think, did like a Hillel dinner for the Deaf folks, the hard of hearing in DC, and it was really impressive to learn about. But then I was wondering in the Torah we talk about white ulcers and how those are something that we're supposed to very much be considering. And white ulcers in the ears will often lead to the deafness. And what do we talk about in Halakha about how to address the different things that that make us maybe considered impure like, we

For a Gohan? Is it Gohan?

Or or anyone in in more modern times to be even going and and leading you. Some Rabbiim talk about if you have various ailments you shouldn't go before the Torah, like leprosy. Leprosy, really think there are modern illnesses that are akin to it, like Crohn's disease where there is a white ulcer in the skin and it falls into that impediment.

Yes. I'll answer briefly, this question. I I don't think that it should be any restrictions when it comes to leading services in in the at the in the community. I think that in many cases there unfortunately we see hypocritical reaction depends on the shul where people feel that certain things are fine for them, other things are you know, scary. It's the other but I'll say this, the I think the issue that really bothers me and I think that Joel, the way you're afraid also is why why are Kohanim with the blemishes removed from the the commentator say because you have to you have to be holy, you have to be whole, and then it's hard to think about it today.

I wrote an article on that and I could share with people if you're interested. I'll say like in a nutshell that what I think is this, in ancient times, this is my theory. In ancient times and even today, people believed that people with certain physical blemishes are holier or even mental illnesses or or epilepsy or other things. And I think that the Torah wanted to preempt the risk of parents maiming their children in order to make them holier. And there's a practice in the pre Columbine South America that in order to create a shaman, a kid would be kept in a in a in a dark house for eighteen years.

No light. Never see the outside world. Only getting food like under the door. Not being spoken to. And then at the age of 18 that child is being brought out and exposed at once to all the sites, all the smells, all the and that would create an overload of the senses and would give them a different spiritual level.

Right? But that child has been tortured. So I think this is my theory. Maybe it's apologetic. But otherwise I cannot understand the Torah here.

That the Torah wanted to protect children from being turned into holy people by maiming them. So, if the coin is a blemish, he cannot be at the temple. So, that that's that's my theory. I hope and we could talk about it later. Rabbi Gelman, please, sorry for holding you.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Rabbi Ovadia. That was a really wonderful presentation and thank you for sharing the end story about the Aliyah and everyone answering in sign language. I have a question and I apologize in advance if this comes across as insensitive. What about when the signs the brachot, someone interpreting it into sound, speaking it out loud, so the rest of the could hear it.

I'm wondering, is that something which is viewed as insensitive towards the deaf and hard of hearing community? How does that fit the Halakhic parameters? And yeah, if you could just talk to that.

No, I think that will be fine. I don't think it's a problem. I think that it's important also, like within each synagogue to talk to the to the people involved. Just to to ask them you know what is what is your level of comfort? What would you like to see?

And oh another sort of like you know along these lines sort of precedent because we're obsessed with precedents in in Halacha right? Even when it even when we deal with organ donations like we're trying to find when in Talmudic time someone donated an organ. So, probably someone donated a piano but not an organ back then. But you know the story of the great synagogue in Alexandria where the synagogue was so big that someone had to stand by the Hazaan and wave a flag to say amen. So nobody heard the they only know now we say amen.

Now we say so it's sort of another argument in favor of answering even though you don't understand but I think that's I think that's everybody would be happy. I think in most synagogues if if I mean the the the deaf and hard of hearing community I think would be happy that people will get Aliyah could sign the even if it's later on translated to to audio for the for the Sibu.

And the was signed in in in Hebrew sign language?

It it could be signed in English sign language. But but the interpreter should know I I hope both languages. Because the Mishna says that every any element of the right could be translated to English. We don't do it today. We we some synagogues do.

Most Orthodox synagogues don't do it because this is God forbid. You know look for them. Looks like non orthodox. So it's better for me not to understand than than to use English, but I think it'd be that would be fine. Stephanie?

Yes. I just wanted to ask a question that ties back to your reference to hearing aids as a microphone from earlier in the class.

Yes.

This if do you have sources where we could go to read up more on different Orthodox opinions regarding the use of microphones and speakers on Shabbat and Hagim to enable those who have hearing loss and are deaf to better be able to follow along with the service?

I have some sources. I wrote about this. There's a very simple Shabbat by Rabbi Meshach where he says, there's not even a question. It's not even a question. It's obvious that you could use a microphone on Shabbat because there's no physical action involved.

Obviously, you should be turned on beforehand or with the timer. The thing is that is the same most hearing devices has the same the same mechanism or or system as a microphone. It translates audio sound waves to electric electric pulses and then back to sound. And there are some hearing devices that are different, but no one made this distinction. And it's sort of like it's a I would like to say hush-hush.

Let's not talk about that, right? Let's not talk about hearing devices. And the the main reason for rejecting the microphone is that it is associated like the Bat Mitzvah to, you know, a certain point with reform and and and the conservative movement. I do think, however, that if people use like the the use of microphone should be limited to situations where, you know, we have large congregations that I know as a fact leading as sometimes as a candor and a rabbi you know, with eight eight hundred to a thousand people on Yom Kippur and only using my voice. I don't know if I could do it now even when I was younger.

I think like the battery is is is dying. So that that's an interesting thing to pursue. But I think there's also beyond the reform conservative or you know that some theological dispute or dispute. Also the idea of spirit of Shabbat. Because sometimes when hearing something directly versus through amplifiers, there's a different quality like in term of the spiritual experience.

Definitely, when you have like this kind of reverb or you know, screech, you know, through the amps or Shabbat, they would feel very, very strange. So, it's it's something to be to be studied, I would say. Okay? So I I give the microphone back to Rav Shmuli and and Ravdina because I think we're almost we have to wrap on time. And I believe that you have

to be accurate. So. Thank you. Yeah. Wonderful.

Ravdina, you wanna make any closing comments or?

I just feel that when we look at Halakha the way Rav Chaim was able to do, to be able to see and think and really move the Halikha of Allah, right, to see the Kavod Habrios piece, which I had mentioned earlier that you have, we make room. You know, we say that people who can't see, you know, like they're people say they're they're not living. But when you see that people do live and they breathe and they wanna have a connection to Yiddishkite and to be able to find room for that, it can be transformative, not just for the person you think you're doing it for, but for the community. And the amen, as an example, what Ribery said was very powerful, that you see that it transforms a community, and it it makes us all better. And think about how people are not on the outs, but people are all cherished.

And so thank you for really thinking through that and seeing possibilities within Halaka.

Thank you. Thank you. And actually, I can send you the article. You can send it to the participant if they want to see the the text, the full text.

Great. We look forward to our next two sessions with you. And, friends, if you're not getting the newsletters, please let us know. We have many other learning opportunities coming up. Wishing everyone a good.