Show Notes
Intro: It's a loooooooooong con. Boz rocks it on #coverfly
Let Me Run This By You: Are #stans just modern day gladiator fans? Also, Bhutan.
Interview: We talk to Sean Gunn about
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I mean, nothing ever feel, I, sometimes I have the spotlight. I'm wonder if anybody ever
1
Feels just really chill. I think there are some people who they wake up and they're just like, yeah, I'm going to do this and this and this. And I'm going to, I just always feel like there's so much clamoring in the back of my brain for attention, you know, I guess it's really just anxiety. I guess that's what it is. I just have a lot of anxiety and I grew up having no idea about that. And I remember saying, you know, kind of early on in my relationship with Aaron like that, I didn't relate to anger and he just laughed and laughed.
1
He goes, are you kidding me? You were so anxious. I, it was news to me. I had no idea. And then it's like, oh yeah, that makes that's. That's why I do that. That makes sense. I don't know. Bottom line is I never feel chill, but sometimes I feel less anxious. I feel the same way. Like I don't ever feel, I think I, I think I'd have to be heavily drugged to feel really chill. And then it doesn't last. And also there's something to be said for like, you know, anxiety is a motivator too. So like yeah, all those things are motivators.
1
So I feel like my anxiety, it's so interesting when I've been like profoundly depressed. I would say twice, two episodes in my life. I've also been anxious and I'm sort of grateful for the anxiety because it course gets to going. I'm not a depressed person that stays in the bed. I may pay surround and look crazy, but I'm not someone who sleeps for 12 hours a day. And look, I'm not saying I'm, I just feel like my anxiety was a motivator it's course, me too. Like, it was so uncomfortable that I was like, okay, well I have to get help or get out of this house or get, do something different because this is intolerable, you know?
1
Yeah. You got to switch it up, but anyway, I'm so eager to hear about you. You made a brave, bold move and you set your amazing Nicholas stage. I don't think I said on this podcast, how much I love your pilot is so good. It's truly, it's so good. And, and what was especially fun for me considering that we are working on writing other things together is that I, I read it for the first time when the, that draft was already done. So I really got to experience it like an audience member the whole time. It was, it was such a page Turner anyway, so you sent it to Nicholas cage.
1
So, so, okay. So the, alright, I entered it. Okay. A long time ago, I entered it into this log line contest before it was written spoiler alert. And, and then they've said, we want to see a full script so that if you listen to the podcast, you know, like we may have put on here. Right. That I, anyway, I wrote the thing really short. And then I, I I've been working on subsequent drafts, like over and over with my mentor, Don. All right. So then that same company had a D a, a diversity initiative for women and people of color and all kinds of things to, to enter a script into you get like a free log line, class pitch class.
1
And if you win and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I love this company, roadmap, writers love them. I just find everyone I've met with has been amazing. And they're literally, their job is helping writers. And of course they have classes and stuff like that, but they actually seem to really give a shit, which is fantastic. So I entered hold my calls is my pilot into their contest. And by the time this airs it'll be common knowledge. So I got, I got second place. So they, I know, I know I so awesome out of a lot of scripts. And part of that is then I didn't realize any of this. So this is such a news. They start. And then I submitted through cover, fly to them, and then they rank your script.
1
I didn't know that. And so my script was in the top 9% out of 50,000 scripts on, on cover fly. Yeah. And I have to say it it's, it's, it's especially amazing because every contest does have, you know, there's so many writers out there who are just dying to, to be noticed. And, and there are so many opportunities for it, but a lot of them don't lead anywhere, but this was like a prestigious thing. And to be in the top 10, 9% is an unbelievable accomplishment.
1
Thank you. Thank you. And I feel like, what do I feel like? I feel like all it's a long con that's just what I keep saying. Like, people are like, people ask me too, and I've heard this before of other writers and people in the industry talking about this. People keep asking me that aren't in the industry, what's happening with your writing. And I'm like nothing. And a lot of things. And I, something like, I think in, we've said it on this podcast that I have to stop equating success with a paycheck because you need a paycheck to live. That is, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're not gonna, they don't go hand in hand. Like, it's not like I won prize money for this, but you win a further, like you said, noticing and further exposure and, and like, so that we can move forward in this industry.
1
And it, it doesn't always, it doesn't look like a paycheck. I just, yeah. And, and R I'll, I'll just put the caveat that I'm sure that there are lots of professions that this is true about, but I only know about this one. So in, in the artistic field, it's kind of, I mean, what's the norm for us would not be the norm for other fields that we could spend thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars in many years, investing in ourselves. And that's the whole concept of like the overnight success, because nobody's an overnight success. Everybody has already invested a lot of time, energy, money, et cetera into it.
1
And it's just that. And you know, and frankly, when people say actors get paid too much, I mean, sometimes I agree with it. And other times I'm like, yeah, but you don't know, you only see their successes. You don't see the 99% of the time that they're failing. I think it comes. That is exactly, exactly right on it. And I think even like influencer culture, look, those people have invested in. I'm not saying it's, if aliens come down and say, see, they're going to, it's going to make sense. What I'm saying is they have invested these, anytime you see someone who is in the public eye, or like doing something, someone who is being noticed for something, unless it's totally random has invested in what they're doing.
1
You may not agree with it. And you may not think it's art, but they look, I've never met someone who has found notoriety or gotten notice that hasn't put some amount of work into their cultivating, their even cultivating their brand, the Kardashians, a real Housewives, that's a whole cultivation situation. You know what I mean? It really is. It really is. And it takes as much work as anything else. And yeah, we have all these weird ideas about like what constitutes work. And I get caught in that sometimes too. Like, technically this is technically the thing that I spend all of my time that I'm not taking care of my family doing is my hobby, but it doesn't feel like a hobby.
1
It feels like I'm, you know, running as fast as I can to get a career online and that, and, and when I'm eventually paid for it, it'll be like, yeah, that's what I was doing this whole time. Right. And, and I feel like it there's the other thing of like, it, it could happen. It feels like you can go from, I was talking to a friend who's not in the industry last night. Like you can go from $0 to $600,000 in a night, but that's really back pay for all the work you've been doing and forward pay. Cause you may not get that $600,000 again.
1
Absolutely. So managing money,
0
Let me run this by you to run by you is
1
So I'm really interested in and fascinated by, in this, in a similar way as how I'm fascinated by influencer culture. I'm really fascinated by fandom or Stan culture. And, and I spend a lot of time hearing about it in my various cultural things that I consume. I kind of, I feel like I kind of know a lot about fandom, but what I'm wondering about is what is the basic human need that fandom fills? Because I know it's a basic Mead, I'm not sick.
1
I'm not sick. It's not that everybody's a hardcore fan of something. Although lots of people are, but the way in which people are fans of something and the meaning that it carries for them. And like nine times out of 10, it has actually very little to do with the thing that they're a fan of. Right. It's it's about them. And what did we do before there was mega stars? Like, what was the fandom? How did this need get met before that? Well, I, that's a great, that's a great topic. And I, I think what comes, what first comes to mind is like, I think you said it really well when you said it's about something else.
1
And I think it's about feeling a part of something. So like I'm thinking of the beehive or whatever they call the lambs that Miranda, Carrie calls her little lambs, there's like a sense of belonging to something like, and maybe gladiator culture had gladiators had huge fans back in the day. Wait, are you saying maybe they did or they did. They did, but I'm saying, yeah. So I'm, I'm thinking that it is, I think he is the, the innate universal desire to belong to a group that is, that can do things that are bigger than the one person or that are to not feel alone, but also to rally around an idea or a, I don't know.
1
It's a great question. It's a great question. Yeah. I think you're right. I think it has to do with wanting to feel part of it's it's a community, it's a tribe. And what I think are funny are stories of when, like, people you'll hear famous, people talk about encounters that they have with fat with fans. And I don't know if anybody's said it exactly this way, but in all the stories, I've heard that there is somewhat of a thread, which is like, I get the impression that, and I've never fanned out on somebody I've never like asked somebody for their autograph or, I mean, I've certainly been standing next to Kirstie alley in the grocery store of who I'm not really a big fan, but like being like, oh, wow, there she is.
1
It does, it does do something to you when you're in front of a famous person. It does do something. Yeah. We recently saw Jay Leno and I'm walking down the street and in where the hell were we Burbank and, and, and I don't care. I mean, I like Jayla. I know I have no opinion about Jay Leno as a comedian. Like I know he was he's famous and he has a lot of cars. Okay. And I F we all freaked out. It was miles myself and two other and another couple. And, and his mother, the mother of the Jay Leno was walking down the street. And we all simultaneously went as if we knew Jay Leno, Leno was lovely and said, hi guys.
1
And it was the weirdest thing. I don't care about Jay Leno as a, as a celebrity, but I got freaked out. Oh my gosh. And maybe it's because I feel like I've had a ton of celebrities living in New York. I saw Faye. I saw bill hater. I saw Samantha B, how many people? Maybe it's because I've never, actually, it's never been somebody that I'm the only person I can think of is, you know, like Meryl Streep. Like if I saw Meryl Streep, I think I might do that fan thing.
1
But regardless of whether or not, I'm a huge fan. It is something about like, I was sitting in an airport once with 50 cent and oh, like, he smelled so good. I felt like he was vibrating something special. It's so true. There is a it's its own thing. And, and I don't know if the fans create that thing or these people innately have that thing, and then it's cultivated more it's so chicken or egg, but I have the same thing I'm trying to think of like, yeah. I mean, I I've had that, you know, and working for Nick cage, I ran, I had celebrities running all the time and, and, and Lisa Marie, she was horrible to me.
1
She was horrible. So Nick married, Lisa Marie Presley for four months or something, but they were dating and she came to the office and she was the rudest. She, we weren't supposed to look her in the eye or something. I can't remember the rules, but I worked at the front desk. I was basically the secretary, you know, so I worked at the front desk and she, her, she had a potty mouth on her, but like, I don't give a shit about that, but it was like a directed and mean potty mouth, which I don't appreciate. So I, I think she said, where's the motherfucking bathroom in this or something. Well, that's what you told me. Where's the motherfucking bathroom in this place. And I was like, okay, okay, what is happening?
1
Unnecessary. I also just go to the bathroom. What do you care? I, I was so weird. It was unnecessarily rude. I couldn't understand why, but then I had, my favorite celebrity encounter was with Benjamin Bratt, who was the most, he was stunning. And he came in for, for a meeting and he was at the time dating Julia Roberts. And it was, it was around the time. I dunno, she had did an Oscar. She was at the Oscars and had hair under an armpits and everyone lost their mind. I don't know. Anyway, I was around that time. I don't know why I'm remembering that, but he was the nicest, most Hansen, most genuine.
1
I wanted to date him immediately. I was like, okay. I, how can I, this is this, I have the cute. And, and, and so our offices on sunset Boulevard overlook the Hills were on the ninth floor and, and there were houses and we went and we were waiting and waiting. And Nick was doing something with, I don't know what was on the phone or something. So we were waiting and I, we got to talking and then we got to going into the conference room, which was all glass. And it overlooked the Hills. And he said, which house do you want? And I said, oh, I want that one. And he said, I want that one. And then we can, we can attach a telephone wire, like a can on a wire. I was like, absolutely.
1
It was the most. We really, he said, you know, you really, that shirt, I had like a peasant blouse on. And he was like, it looks like my ex-girlfriend. She used to wear things like that. And his ex-girlfriend I knew was like Jennifer Esposito, who I really liked. And I was like, oh my, he was so kind. And so, and we talked about he's Peruvian. And I talked about being Colombian. And so, and his mom was a political activist. So anyway, I had some lovely, but he had that thing where I was just like, I want to be near him. I want to put a spell on you. They put a spell on you. I felt the first time I ever saw a real life celebrity was when I was a little kid.
1
We did one of those. Do they still have where you get a map and you drive and look at the stars. This is in LA. Okay. Well, we did that and we drove Lucille ball and Jimmy Stewart lived on the same street. And when we drove by, in retrospect, I think that they know what time the bus comes. And that's when they come outside because Jimmy Stewart was mowing his own grass. I mean like the most adorable thing and gave away, I mean, honestly, like, so in character and Lucille ball was going out to check her mail and, and gave a wave. And I remember seeing them and feeling really sort of starstruck. So, but the other thing that's sort of interesting about the whole fandom thing is this funny little dance between the adored and the adoring, where different times, they both don't want to own up to the fact that one loves to be adored and one loves to do the adoring, but they also, there's an exchange there.
1
Even people who acts, who really complain about fans, even that even Sean Penn, who famously, you know, was shooting guns at the helicopter that was taking pictures of his wedding to Madonna. Like he got something out of that he want, he wanted that in a way that was almost more showing how much he needed it than somebody who doesn't pay the paparazzi any mind. Right? Yeah. It has to be, they have the celebrities, especially ones who act out like that against the proper Etsy.
1
Granted it's probably so infuriating and maddening to have them, but also they ha they, the celebrity themselves must have an unmet need that is getting fulfilled through this, these inner, these crazy ass interactions with the press and their fans. Like they just must, or else they would, like you say, ignore it and be like, oh, whatever, let's go about our business. And we've had, you know, a couple of encounters with people who have some degree of fame who, what they're doing, the dance that they're doing with us is they want to be wanted. And then we go, okay, we want you, and then they don't respond.
1
You know? And it's like the thing, the thing that they're chasing is the being wanted. They want to be in the position of saying, no, I feel like there's a right. There's a thing they're like, I, I just want to be in the position where I can feel you wanting me so that I can. Yeah. And I think it's like, it's like I'm dating or anything else. The same thing. It's like, I guess it comes down to, we all really, really want to be wanted. And it reminds me of, of Bhutan the country where they don't, they ever, they have a rule where no one can be more famous than anybody else. I'm probably totally screwing that up.
1
There is, there is some kind of law, or I don't know, there's a cultural norm where they don't, they don't recognize fame. They don't, they don't, that's not a thing there. And it's interesting. I wonder how that culture is, but, but I hear, we love that. So I think you're right. It's a dance. And also people can't have celebrity without fans. Yeah. You can't have be a celebrity without the other people. You're not in a vacuum. And people are highly aware of that. Whether they, it manifests, it manifests in all kinds of ways, but like, you don't have the Kardashians without the people watching the Kardashians you don't have, you know, and also regarding the, the upset that people feel.
1
And I, I feel, I feel compassion for the people who, you know, the Brittany Spears of the world, who've just been so really targeted and stocked. And I have compassion for it, but this, and I don't like this phrase, oh, well, you signed up for it. Cause that makes it sound like you signed up to have stalkers or abused. Right. It's not quite that, but I'll say it to you like this bill Murray and other, I mean, actually he is maybe probably one of the, if I saw him, I think I would probably get really excited, but famously he doesn't have this problem.
1
Do you know what I mean? Like he doesn't, he encounters fans he's always has time for them. He'd never seems put out by it. It's also not a mob and he's also not being. So I feel like he creates a environment for himself and give, admits the vibe of like, yeah. You know, me, and I'm cool with that. And sometimes I feel like talking to you and sometimes they don't, but it's not a big deal. I feel like the people who get all exercised about it are professed to get all exercised about it. Aren't acknowledging the thing that they, they're just not acknowledging the thing that they need out of the situation. And that kind of bothers me.
1
Yeah. I mean, I think that's what it is. It's the transparency of like saying, yeah, this is a business. This is part of this business of being in the public eye is a, is a back and forth with, with fans who, who support me and sometimes are a little bonkers and sometimes mean, and, and yeah, like, lets it be transparent about the whole thing. What about when you're on set and there's somebody and there's this feeling where you can tell, they want you to make something out of them. You know? And when I first started going on sets with my son, I mean, not, not for myself, I just adopted the approach of like, don't look at anybody, don't talk to anybody, just kind of, but I find that people don't necessarily like that either like the times where I've truly ignored the celebrity in the room, they come, they, they, and they engage and encounter with me.
1
It's certainly, it's really, it's so true. We were vacationing and we happened to go to this fancy, fancy place that I adore called a Sensia in Mexico. And it's, it's amazing. And there was a fashion designer there named Jason. Woo. Yeah. Jason woo. And he kept staring at me. I, you know, I was very dressed up. I had a huge tattoo on my back and I could tell, he wanted me to talk to, I, I just, I got this vibe. I'm like, why does this guy? So I finally, and he had designed recently a plus size line for, for Eloquii, I think, which is a brand. And I had bought a piece. And so I went, I finally was like, you know what, I'm going to do it.
1
I'm going to, I fell into the thing. And I went over and he was lovely, but I just said, Hey, I love your stuff. And he's like, oh, I love your tattoos. So we got into a whole thing, but you could tell he, and I think because you and I are, we're our former therapists. And we're really into like in tune with people's. I did what he wanted me to do. And it was a lovely exchange. Yeah. Sometimes it's just a lovely exchange
0
Today on the podcast. We're talking with Sean Gunn, Sean Gunn went to the theater school at DePaul university with us and then graduated and went on to do amazing things and is still doing amazing things to this day. He is an actor and a writer and a producer, you know him from the Gilmore Girls and more recently from the Marvel movies. And he's a present authentic, hilarious human. So please enjoy our conversation with Sean
1
Up here in the Northeast. I also got to say, Sean, you look so good. How do you look amazing this glow?
2
I th I think first personal, the lighting is great. I'm in the garage where I am right now. And the lighting is great. So that helps. And, and I'm tan. I've been out in the sun like almost every day.
1
No, you have a great glow. Yeah. So everybody's Sean already apologize for the audio quality in his air, bud air, air pods. And I told him, it's fine because he is so amazing that anything he says will, will reverberate, no matter what, congratulations, Sean Gunn, you survived theater school. I made it us with us. And I, I was just revisiting the, the website. I, of course everybody and their mother who has been sisterly feelings who's been on this podcast has, has talked about like the phenomenon that was sisterly feelings. But you were also in which I had totally forgotten about hasn't come up yet on the podcast, the usual version loom by John Jenkins directed.
1
Did
3
You forget about it until just the second was I was a crew on that show.
1
Oh, you're on the website as cast.
3
Yes,
2
No, that was, we did, they did that in our first year. They did that in, oh, you know what? Right. I was even, you know how sometimes they would do that with the, like the crew members. Like I was up like a waiter. I came out in like how to cut a towel over my arm at one point and like serve somebody a drink. Do you remember the show itself? Yeah, I remember it was funny because I, I bumped into one of the leads in a dinner, like last, like a year and a half ago or pre COVID pre COVID a year ago.
2
And, and I didn't know who he was, like, I forget the actor's name, but he was one of the elite actors in that show. And I was like, holy Christmas. I was, I, that was my first crew was Bush squat gentlemen. And I remember doing, I didn't remember until just now that I walked on and was in the show. Oh yeah,
1
They do. They put everybody who, you know, and they're actually, you're not the first person that we've surprised with reminding us that they were in the show. I'm not in that show. And then they're like, yes, I was, I was guard number seven that like carried so-and-so off stage. Yeah.
2
Trying to remember. So I've been listening to your, to this podcast by the way, like a maniac. So I've, I've listened to a whole bunch of episodes. It's a little harrowing, sometimes cathartic. It's a little like having therapy at times, but, but it's, it's really cool, but I've been trying to remember, and I can only remember five of the six shows that I did, but so which ones
1
Do you remember besides a gentleman and
2
Well, yeah, well, I remember okay. In my third year I did print some, the popper on the mid stage with, with, with Eric w w no, he was a year ahead of us and he was Eric Conlan. And he was, and, you know, he's a full six inches shorter than I am. So in order to make us look the same, we had to either slouch during the whole performance, which was pretty funny. But that one was really, that was really fun because it was a show when we all got punchy after a while.
2
And we started just doing things to amuse ourselves a few weeks into the run. But I remember Jen Alison and Lorenzo Medrano, and they were all on that show and Joe Harrison. But so I did that. I did dangerous liaisons or directed by Nick bowling. And then I did something else in my third year that I don't remember that I'm sure was a workshop and was not, but that's, that's what I don't remember. And then my, my fourth year I did freedom of the city was Shauna Flanagan. Right. A really small part. And I was super bitter about it because I had a really small like, ensemble role.
2
Like that was when you got ensemble, your, that was the kiss of death is you remember? And then I did sister,
1
It's just many times by that death,
3
But
2
Then it was great feelings, which was awesome. And then up cast me and raised in captivity, which was the last show.
1
Yeah. We talk about it, but I always have the wrong information about it. I, I, you are, you are the person. I definitely remember because that bit about how you're teaching the baby and he's almost walking, I would literally peed my pants. I, I, it was so embarrassing to leave that room because I, I, and I don't know if you heard the episode where I said, I kept looking around everybody else who was laughing and being like, you're not, you don't get it. It's much funnier than you. It's so funny. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. It's so funny. And the other thing, the thing that I remember about you is that the things you said in the, in the in-between times, or in auditions or in like, I, the type of way, do you remember tap away, tap away.
1
Do you remember the Tupperware? Okay. No. This is when you had to audition for sisterly feelings, that the, the thing was make the director laugh. You had like 90 seconds to make him laugh. And we all did a terrible job and we didn't get any laughs. And your thing, I don't, I'm not sure if you've got any laughs or not, but you did get cast. So then it was in the middle of the stage has somebody's stage, right. Throwing Tupperware at you. And you said, tap away, tap away. It was the funniest. But the thing is like, I don't know how I heard about it because we weren't aiming for me. I remember it just, I didn't get to see it, but I remember what you told us what you were okay to do that to me was the funniest bit.
1
And I think the reason it's so funny is because it just is sort of like, it, it, you made it make sense. I don't know why, but I just think whenever I have a Tupperware, I say, tap away, it's up away. And I crack myself up. The other thing I remember about you that was really stunning to me was that you and your friends did the dumbwaiter right. As a side thing.
2
Yeah. We just did it on her own what we want to do a ceiling tile. And there was
1
A lever pulley system. And I remember thinking, I so remember thinking these people are going to do once they graduate, something is going to happen with these folks that is not going to happen with the rest of, because it was so I couldn't believe people were taking the time outside of the school to do this. And it was a great show. Do you remember that show? Sure. Yeah,
2
I directed it. So, yeah. And I kind of, oddly enough, I had sort of like started to drift into wanting to be a director more than an actor by my, by the time I was end of it. But I looked back at that as a deviation. And it was it's partly because the school kind of mess with your mind so much that I was like, oh, maybe I should be doing this other thing. And then I took Jim hostel hops, directing class. I hit, I liked just went to him and asked them if I could take his MFA directing class and cause search Harper and I were, were good, are good friends.
2
And she, and she was taking it as a, as an acting student that I was like, oh, you can do that. And I just went to Jim and asked him if he would, if he would take me in it, you know, I didn't get a grader. I was, you know, essentially auditing it, but, but took that class and I loved it. And I was really, really into that. And I was into directing. I started to really enjoy directing, but I do think that a part of that is what you guys have talked about. A lot of, part of that was like really lacking a lot of positive reinforcement about my acting and not feeling good about what was going on with my acting career, which I look back now. And I was like, I'm just like, what in the hell was that school doing?
2
And what
1
Are your big takeaways about what they were doing besides lack of positive reinforcement? I mean, were you getting messages that you're now revisiting and saying you don't agree? Yeah.
2
I mean, it's not just lack of positive reinforcement because the school's purpose it's function. I don't think it's the coddle, the people who are, who are in the classes, that's not the important thing, but what would I do really take a lot of issue with was this idea that, that we were all supposed to be setting ourselves up for this life. As, as I remember, Jim also helped put a life on the fringe. Life is like outsiders who were working our way in. And they were like setting us up to not, not make a living in this profession. That was that w w w you know, we're in a school that's supposed to be teaching us how to be professionals in, in this business.
2
And then by the time we graduate, they're kind of like, just so you know, you're probably not going to be a professional in this business.
3
They'll like, you know, or like
2
Just how much disdain they had for, for film and television acting where, like, it was like an add on at the end of four years. It's like, oh, and here's one quarter of acting on camera, even though that's where all of the jobs are in the industry that we're about to enter and, and how they would, you know, always, it was like, oh, you know, the theater is so great. And it's like, you're slumming it if you're doing TV jobs, but then you go into the offices of the, of the teachers and who do they have on their walls? You know, they have all of the film and television. So it's like, this is great. This is what, like, we kiss the asses of all of these people.
2
However, you're not probably going to be any one of them.
1
I think that's absolutely right. It's, crazy-making, that's a crazy-making way to teach something, because it's saying, it's saying, don't do this, but do this.
2
And they put all the, I mean, I could, I could just refer a while, but it's like, they, you know, they, they put all of this, all this import into the, the, what do you call it? The end of the year? The, the, the showcase, like, it's like, they set it up. So it's like, oh, by the way. Okay. So you've been working day in and day out for hours and hours and hours and hours a week for four years. But now these, these hundred and 20 seconds are going to determine whether or not you have a viable way of making it in this career, which was so messed up. It's like, I wish I could go back and I wish I could go back and speak to myself and my classmates before we did those showcases and give us some, some pieces of advice.
2
But you
1
Got, did you, you got an agent from that, didn't you? I
2
Did. I got an agent in, I got some agents agents in Chicago from that. And, and then in, you know, I had some, I had some pretty cool meetings in LA, but nothing came of it. I mean, it wasn't, you know, even though I had meetings and other people didn't, it wasn't any better for me than it didn't to him any more for me than the people who didn't have meetings, you know, like went on an audition. I met, I met the head of comedy casting, I think for CBS. And she was like, oh, are you moving to LA? And I very foolishly because nobody had prepared me.
2
I was like, well, if I have reason to move to LA, I'll move to LA. And so she was going to offer me a job. If I had known it would have been like, oh, you're moving to LA, let me, let me set you up with a couple of agents that I'm friends with. And I could have started right away. But instead I'm like, oh no, I'm going to start a theater company with my friends,
1
Sean, everybody we talked to that had meetings LA, I didn't have any, but people that did the number one question, they didn't tell us how to answer. Is, are you moving to LA? It's just told us to lie and say that I'm moving to LA doesn't make any sense. It could have changed. I mean, look, happy things happen for a reason, but it could have changed the course of like 10 people we've talked to his labs.
2
I would actually adjust that to say they should have pulled us to tell the truth and say, yes, I'm moving to LA. I don't know. It's like, I, I love, I love living in Chicago and I love the Chicago theater scene is great. But you know, like I said earlier, if you want a job, there's a lot, lot, lot more jobs in LA than there are in Chicago. And that was what we are. We're all kind of there for. Right.
1
How did you, how did you end up at the theater school? I'm really curious. Cause I know you're from St. Louis right here and I'm making that up.
2
No, I'm from St. Louis, but I was like, I was one of those weird kids who I knew I wanted to be a professional actor when I was five. You know, when I was old enough to know what a PR profession was, I'm like, I'm going to be an actor. And, and so I was always kind of on the path. I did plays in high school and I did some did my research of where the, the best sort of acting conservatories were. And I auditioned for Julliard and I auditioned for DePaul and I wanted to really get into one of those. And I got an DePaul. So that, that's where I went.
2
My backup schools were schools with really strong theater programs at the time, but I kind of knew what was in store for me. And I wanted to be, and I still feel in a lot of ways, like I was a very kind of angry and I, I was not the most pleasant person in college, like in those years of my life, which is funny. I, I have to, I have to make a joke about this, Jen, that I was listening to Lee Kirk's episode. And you said, the Lee, you go, you said, I remember you as being like the nice one out of your group of friends.
2
And I heard that. I was like, Hmm, I wonder then who she's implying that the main ones I always thought you guys were so cool. And like, so he always got credit for being that he was
3
A nice one, really the biggest
1
He would, if he was like the biggest asshole ever. And you were really the best you've ever been really wanting to be friends.
3
But I
2
Was also kind of, I was like so driven and I was very like, if I, if I'm, if I could go back, I know I would be a much nicer person, but I also cut myself a little slack because I was like, I was like very intense and very much like, I'm, I'm doing this. So every thing is everything we're doing is so incredibly important to me, at least at the time I thought, and I was in anybody that wasn't as serious about it, or wasn't as sure which of course they had every right to be, not as sure, but anyone who wasn't as sure I felt like I, like they were in the way or something or that they were taking time away from, from, from which is lame.
2
But, you know, whatever I was, you did
1
Seem to, you did seem like you seemed like a professional actor already. And I think that that's, there are some people that just are driven like that, that know what they're doing. And I think there is something to be said for that, because I do think it, it behooves you sometimes in a conservatory to have that attitude because you, you, it is a professional training program. The rest of us, I don't know what the hell we were doing there. I don't know. But, but the, the professional actors, they had a good attitude. They were like, we're professionals. This is what we do. And I was like, I drank Mickey's big mouth forties. That's what I do
2
So well, I drank plenty of Jamieson, but you know, I almost got cut though, even with that. And which now, yeah, yeah. I was on warning and then my second year, and it's funny, I did for our, for scenes, you know, you do those incredibly intense scenes at the end of your second year in front of the whole faculty and, and Jen and, and I did a scene from, from the Harold Pinter play. Yeah.
2
And, and, and it was, it went really, really well. Right. It was a really good scene. And I, I was on warning at the time, but for some reason I wasn't that nervous. I thought that they were like, warning me to just kinda like give me a little kick in the pants. And that I wasn't, I think, I just thought they're not really going to come in though, because I was, so I was such a, I felt like I was such a good student in terms of like, at least putting in giving all my effort all the time. And then a couple of years later I was having, I had a beer with Rick Murphy after some show that we, that we saw and, and it came up and he'd mentioned that he's like, yeah, I remember you did that, that scene with, with Jen.
2
And it was, it was so, and it was so good. It was like the first work that you had done that made the faculty really feel like, oh, this guy's really got something. And I said to them, I was like, they were, I said, oh yeah, I know. I w I was on warning. He said, I know. And I said, but they weren't really going to cut me. Were they? And his Rick Murphy's eyes got really wide and he went, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. You were going to be cut if you didn't perform well on that, in that scene. And it's weird how we think back on that now, you know, cause that's whatever, I mean, that would have been, gosh, you know, 20, almost 30 years ago, I guess.
2
And just of like how, how would that have changed my life? Like what if I wasn't on that day? Or what if I went up in my lines and that, and that the thing. And would it have, how would it have changed things? It does not give me a good feeling to think about that. I dunno.
1
I think you would have just moved to LA and been fine like you are, but I mean, I understand why you have that. I
2
Don't know. I might've quit. I was a pretty fried, a pretty fragile psyche at the time. I don't know. But I would like to think that I would have just moved to LA. Yeah.
1
Well, I mean, so we're talking about you, you took it very seriously from the beginning. I felt like you were an adult from, from the very beginning that, that, that, that's how it came across to me was like, and maybe that was just your defenses and Lord,
2
Like an adult. I had an older sibling, I'm the youngest. So I learned that I'm pretend
1
I see it. That makes sense. But your anger when you were talking about being angry, I mean, how, I mean, we weren't close or anything, but how I interpreted your anger was a F like what you already said, a frustration about people who didn't treat it. Like it was, you know, the most important thing that they were doing at the time, people who were treating it like college, instead of like, yeah. I didn't even know about DePaul and Julliard. Like, did you have teachers at your high school that were really like helpful? Or did you just learn all that stuff?
2
I learned it on my own. I went and got, you know, like again, I had older siblings, so they had like, they, they had college books about how to study for different types of programs and things like that. And, and, and I would, you know, I did research and looked up lists of, of what were the best acting training programs in the country. And then I did research, you know, and, and tried to find them.
1
You mentioned starting a theater company with your friends St. Ed. So you left when, so you directed the dumbwaiter that, that was sort of the beta test for that theater company.
2
Audio, is this audio killing you guys or is it okay? Oh, that's good. That's good. It's through my thing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1
No problem. So you start this theater company at the time. I mean, I'm assuming you felt like this was going to be your thing. You were going to be in charge of this theater company and it was going to go on and be one of these long lasting theater companies. But my impression is that what started to happen is that you all just started to get work as actors. And that's why it disbanded is that right?
2
Yeah, kind of it was, it was twofold. It was like, first of all, we started this theater company at the same time, opened the coffee shop theater, which is still there at the, at the triangle at Ashlyn Milwaukee division. And we thought it would be very smart to, to have a full running coffee shop that was open every morning, rather than just opening during shows. You're doing like sort of a soft opening, which actually would have been wise. We're like, no, we're just gonna run this coffee shop. And it turned out that we were pretty good.
2
We were okay at running a theater company and very, very bad at running a coffee shop. And that was the coffee shop. We had other people who were helping us out, but that was me and Lee Kirk and Anaconda makos, and Nick and Anne was still in school, but, and she still had a year left, but, but me and Lee and Nate were running a coffee shop and, and Val was always around. Valentine was always around him. And Cabrera was always around because there were parts in the fear company, but they weren't, they weren't owners in the cop shop. Anyway, after a year the coffee shop, we ran it into the ground and we had to light it up and shut it down, which already put a damper on everything that we were doing.
2
And then I, I started getting a lot of, I started doing a bunch of commercials. I did like, I, I did something like I did like 10 commercials in four months or something crazy, like out of like whole bunch. And then I did this independent movie that Judy and and Tate Smith were in. I heard Ted talk about it. And, and I did this movie and became friends with, with Jamie Kennedy, who was one of the actors from LA, who was in the movie. And I remember it was a pivotal moment in my life.
2
We were out one night, we'd gone out to like shoot pool and get some drinks or something after work one day, which was like, we felt like such big shots. You know, like, like we had per diem, you know, staying in this hotel and to Nosha Wisconsin. And, and one night we came back after, after work, we came back to the hotel and on the way up to our rooms, the receptionist stopped Jamie and had an envelope that had a script in it for them and was like, was like, oh, this is, you know, this came for you. And it was, he was like, oh, it's a script that I, that I'm supposed to read that I might, you know, but they're interested in me for that.
2
I'm going to audition for, or whatever. And I saw that and I'm like, I want that. That's what I want, that I want to come home. And I want to have a script waiting for me that I'm going to look at and that's, and that was pretty much it. And then I went back to, I went back after that movie was done and, and Lee and I, who had lived together for a long time. And, and I told him, we had, we're trying to figure out what we were going to do next with the theater company and blah, blah, blah. And I went back and I'm like, I'm moving to LA, you know? And, and I had a brother there at the time whose couch I could crash on for a few months.
2
And, and yeah, yeah, it was, it was the right decision.
1
All of your siblings in the industry,
2
Five of the six are, I have four brothers and they're all in the entertainment industry. And my sister is, is, is an employment attorney. She, she fights the man for on behalf of, for gender equality issues. She's tougher than all of us combined, but she lives in LA too. Actually, I've got a brother in Brooklyn and then all of my other brothers have since moved out to California. And then of course, like, I don't know. I feel like my career is punctuated by a few, you know, like some of my career has some really smart decisions or are times when I, I capitalized on the opportunities and some have just some elements of incredible luck and involve involvement.
1
Give us an example. Yeah. Tell us, tell us the luck and versus the, I mean, you're not the first person, like people who have have, are working constantly and that are talk about luck, but I'd like to know some examples of luck.
2
Here's one example of luck that people don't think of a lot is that, and I was thinking about this earlier, when we were talking about the showcase is that when I, when I graduated in, in 1996, I was the very, very castable type. Like I was the, I would play this dorky sort of like it, like guys like me were getting all these roles of, you know, either like the goofy convenience store clerk or, you know, goofball best friend or whatever. And I just had a look. I mean, I don't think I was, I don't think I was any more extraordinarily talented than, than so many other people, but I looked perfect for that time.
2
Like, and it was like right in that pocket, which is one of the things, by the way, I wish we had been told when we did showcases, is that like, like this is not, this is, this is not a referendum on it. Your castability for the rest of your career, this is going to show you who's castable right this second, you know, but your career is going to be long anyway. So that was something very lucky, but it's something much more lucky than that is that then like later in my career, my brother James is one of the most gifted writer directors and in the world and you know, he's my brother. So we work together. Like, you know, he'd take me along on certain, you know, I, I don't, I, I already had a good television career before, before going to do Marvel movies with him.
2
But I don't, I think that I'm, I'm doing a lot of these big movies, you know, part, it, it helps to have, have these people as part of your sphere who are, who can help bring you along.
1
I have a question about that in terms of what do you think makes a family like that? Because let me just tell you something, my family is not that way. So my sister got God, lover is not making Marvel movies and I'm not many movies. No, not, not any movies. So what, what, what, what is it about the gun family I'm serious? Like, I'm curious what the hell, what happens there?
2
W we've all been attempting to answer that question for, for decades. And I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's some combination of, you know, my, my mother was very much, she, she read all the modern baby rearing stuff in the, in the sixties. Like she, she, she read Dr. Spock early and she, she like was very much about, she knew that fostering the imagination for young children was super important. So that's like a little piece of it. My dad's from a big Irish Catholic family and was very outgoing.
2
They're all lawyers, but they have this element of, of, of showmanship or show person ship, I guess the word would be now. And, and, and them, and a very brick area's personality. I also think that in my, in another life, my dad could have, would have been a magnificent performer, you know, and, and his parents actually, even though his dad was like a judge and stuff, his parents met doing, doing like summer stock theater on the Chautauqua circuit. And, and so I, I don't know, but there's also something about us being there's six of us, but less than eight years separates the six of us.
2
So we're relatively tight in age. And we were like a unit growing up and we w we entertained ourselves and we were all incredibly into pop culture. And we like listen to music and watch movies and watch TV shows and like created characters and stories and like influences. So
1
It's like you, your own troop of, yeah. Like you would have been involved Ville if it was a hundred years ago, you would say middle circuit. I have to say for the record. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
2
It's interesting. You bring that up because that's another thing you say that you're involved bill something that, that I feel like I, I naturally had an affection for that. They did not teach us enough of at the theater school. Was that, that yes, I loved, I loved theater and I loved art. I wanted to be an artist, but I also love show business, you know? And like, and that is such an element of it. You can't make art unless somebody buys it, you know, otherwise it's a hobby, but if you want to do it as a profession, somebody needs to buy it. So there, there has to be an element of, of, of show business to what, what it is that you're doing.
2
It took me a while to sort of sort through that as a creative entity. I think I was very low on it when I left the theater school, but it came back to me after a little bit, once I started, like, you know, I'm working on, on camera more than any way. Good, good. Go ahead.
1
Oh, I was just going to say for the record I've as a parent of three children, your mother deserves a metal for reading any books whatsoever, but especially reading a bunch of pioneering child development books. That it's a, it's a word to the wise do read the books because there is, there is parenting is not necessarily innate. I mean, maybe for a lucky few, but what I'm thinking about is having that many siblings has to be a big part of your sense of humor. All of my memories about you from the theater school, all relate to hilarious things that you said or did. Are you the funny one in your sibling group? No,
2
No, nothing. Like I am in, we're all the funny ones in my and my family. I mean, I don't, I, I don't think, you know, I try, but w w w we all jockey to be the funny one in one way or another, maybe a couple, maybe two or three of us more than the others. A little bit, but like, we're, we're constantly, th th the thing about being a big family that really helps and really helped my acting a lot is timing. You, like, you learn that, like, you've got one narrow window to six people or eight people when my parents were there and you're all trying to like, crack each other up, particularly world teenagers and stuff.
2
And we're trying to crack each other up. You've got about a quarter of a second to get your joke in, to maximize. If you're going to get laugh, to be able to say it before somebody else says it, if you miss it, it's gone. And so you, you learn timing that way. And that helped me immensely when I started doing, doing work on camera and like auditioning for sitcoms and, and, and a lot of commercial work and stuff like that, where, where comic timing was, was incredibly important. And it's one of it's, it's a, it's a massive strengths of mine. And yet another strength that the theater school more or less didn't give a shit about.
2
I mean, they didn't, nobody was, nobody was like patting you on the back saying you've got great comic timing. You know, like if anything, it was, it was the opposite. It was like, stop trying to go from the last stop trying to get. Yeah, God forbid, we get laughs. Right. What, how did that work out in improv though? Did you, did you slay? No, I'm not. I I'm, I I'm. I was able to kind of tread water and improv and, but I, I don't, even to this day, my improv skills pretty much extended to being available for my other actors that I'm doing a scene with so that when things go off script, I can stay with them, but I don't like, I like scripts.
2
I like lines. And like, and that that's an old kind of show business thing too. It's like, it's like, I, I like sticking more or less sticking to what to what's on the page. I was not because, because when we did improv, as you guys know in school was not, it had nothing to do with comedy. So it's all like, you know, the, the, the Spolin games and things like that, where it's all. And that was, that stuff was hard for me to wrap my brain around because I'm, that's another thing that's still now. It's like, I'm, I'm pretty cerebral in terms of how I analyze analyze work.
2
And so I like to be able to take a minute with it and think about it. And that's, you know, when you're playing Spolin games, the whole purpose is to take you out of that, which, which was good for me to learn, but was never my strength.
1
Well, I was just going to say, you know, something about the theater school that just it's, it's coming forward for me is that like date and, and look, we've been doing this podcast long time, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around. There are these huge gaps, right? And it's sort of like, Spolan stop thinking. Don't be funny. And then when we graduate, it's the exact opposite of how to make money. So there is this, I'm just, it's just shocking to me. It's like, it's like, there's a whole year missing of how to connect the showbiz part because people who liked showbiz did really well after they, not everybody, but after they graduated. So like you liked showbiz inherent in the theater, conservatory was a hatred of showbiz.
1
And yet those are the people that get paid their bills. It's. So it's just makes me think about conservatories and how to, how we can change them. Because like, if we came back and you had, you know, Sean Gunn teaching a class on why showbiz is important, it might work like it just, there was a gap, there was a huge gap. And most of us fell into the gap into the moat. We all fell into the mode, but there are people who did not fall into the mode or stay in the mode. And I think those people bridge the gap when they graduated, they bridged the gap. You were able to bridge the gap. Judy was able to bridge the gap to small shin bridge the gap. It's interesting. It's really interesting.
2
I think that there's, that, that the, the, the people who, who are really aware of what their strengths are, have such a leg up and the school could have done a heck of a lot more to help people find that stuff out on their own. And to like, to really kind of help people understand what their own w what their strengths are. And, and also just in general, this whole notion that like, that, that Hollywood, like only cares about people who are like pretty or beautiful. And that, that's the only way if you're like, whatever, it's, it's just nonsense.
2
And, and it's something that, that really should be fought against. It's like, like it's just not true. There's all kinds of different roles for all kinds of different people. It's like, I don't know. Yeah.
1
Yeah. And I'm wondering if growing up in the family that you did, you were, you were able to, and, and, and, or maybe had to identify, oh, these are my strengths. Like, my brother might be this and my, or this brother might be bad, but I, I can do this. Like, I don't know, like maybe it helped you somehow to individually, you know, become an individual amongst, amongst a crowd, you know, because you had to, right. I mean, like, I dunno, I'm just, I just, I'm always trying. I'm always trying to think, okay. Like, what is the secret sauce that makes people make it? And I think it's, and what I'm learning from talking to people like you is that it's a secret sauce is a combo platter of things.
1
It's not just one thing. Right. It's not just one thing that makes a yeah.
2
And I mean, first of all, I don't know. I mean, have I made it, I don't know. I, I still, no, I, I, that's not fair. I'm I'm I make my living doing it. And I think that that's a benchmark. That was always important to me. I remember when I was a kid and I told my parents, I wanted to be an actor. And they were like, well, you know, we'll support you if you want to do it. But you know, only 10% of actors make their, like, make their living doing it. I think the number is probably much lower than that actually. But that's what they told me. They were like doing it. I'm like, okay, well then that'll be my goal to be in that 10% of people who, who make their living.
2
And so I try to remind myself that now, whenever I get really down on like roles I don't get or things, things that aren't happening in my career that I want to be happening. I'm always like, well, look, I'm doing it. I'm paying, I'm making my living doing this thing. And I haven't been for a long time. So,
1
Well, let me say this. I w I wasn't gonna say this to you, but I I'm, but I will, I, before this interview, I was thinking about you. And I was thinking, I bet, okay. I am, my kids love all the Marvel stuff. I, I don't, I've never seen any of it. And it's not a slam on Marvel. It's just it's. So, when I told my kids, for example, that I knew you, they still don't believe me. So when this podcast comes out, I'll finally have proof. But what occurs to me is, okay, Sean Gunn, intellectual, very rarefied sense of humor, like smart as all get out.
1
Is it a prison to be doing one type of thing? Or maybe it's not, maybe it's maybe doing that gives you the opportunity to do the other things that you like when you have free time, but does it ever feel limiting the marvels? Oh
2
Gosh, no. I mean, not, not at all for, for, for a few reasons. Not the least of which is that like, like, I, I don't I'm, first of all, it's like, you know, it's not, not your thing. Like, nothing's no thing is for everyone. So like, there's nothing it's like, even though Marvel has a large net, it's like, if you're like, oh, that's not my thing. I'm not into it. There's no part of me. That's like, Ooh, how dare you? You know? No, it's like, okay, cool. It's not your thing that said, I think that, I think by and large, the quality of the work that we create, I can say we, but that they create the marble is very good.
2
I mean, I think that the movies in general, particularly compared against against what their competition is. So when you look in the realm of like, there's going to be a void where a large tent pole action films, that appeal to a wide audience, and those movies are getting made one way or the other. It's not like we're either going to do that, or we're going to do, like, those films are getting made. Right? So once you accept the fact that those films are getting made, I think the quality of the Marvel films is quite good. Like they're not all, they're not all great, but they're awesome.
1
Don't get me wrong. That's not what I meant. I w what I meant to say is you're, it's so all consuming, you've done like a hundred of these movies. It doesn't take up every single bit of your time.
2
No, I know. I do. I do other stuff, I guess. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am able to do other stuff too, also, but even if I weren't, it wouldn't be a bad, it wouldn't be a bad way to live, you know? It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, first of all, it's pretty cool to do something that so many people love and make so many people happy. Like that's, that's gratifying. Also. I still get, I mean, I get recognized for Gilmore girls, way more than Marvel movies. Yeah. About, about Gilmore girls.
2
And <inaudible> had this weird, like comeback after 10 years after it was gone, which was mind blowing to me. But, but no, you know, I'm, I'm able to, I'm not able to do anything I want, like I do have, I do have like big chunks of my schedule that are, that are blacked out because I'm going to do some of these big movies, but I love it. I love making those movies, particularly the guardians movies. I mean, the guardian of the galaxy movies are really good. You should watch them. Do you know? They're really good.
3
Okay. I'm going to, <inaudible> also my own brother.
1
Oh, I'm sorry. I hope that wasn't insulting. I didn't mean it to be insulting.
2
No, no, not at all. Oh, not at all. I mean, really not at all. I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't, I'm not invested in like every person ever, you know, seeing whatever w whatever work it is. Like, I don't that's, I I'm just saying that, that, like, it's, it's mostly pretty cool, you know, and I've been able to do some, like recently I've done some cool smaller indie movies, and I'm also like, you know, I was telling you guys before we got on, I'm trying, I'm trying to, my wife and I are trying to get this movie made. And, and, and you were, I mean, something I've, I've known for a long time that you've learned that if you have actors that have a certain profile, you can raise money.
2
People won't give you money if you have an actor that's. And so, like, I don't, I don't want to be famous because I want to get a nice table on restaurants, or because, because it's fun for me to get, to get recognized when I'm in home Depot, but I do want to be famous. So that investors will say, yes, we'll give you money to make the movie that you want to make, because you're in it. You know, like that would be awesome for my, for, for what I wanted to do. I mean, I, I feel like there's still so much, so much like awesome work.
2
I
1
Don't know. Yeah. You're into the power. I mean, I, it seems, I I've always said I don't care. I wouldn't, I don't think I'd ever want to be famous, but I'd love to be powerful, which is to say, you know, to have influence, to be able to, to make a, you know, to be able to be a part of the conversation about what's influencing the culture is a huge gift. And I mean, it's a responsibility too, but it's a huge, huge gift. And, and I guess I'm pretty glad that it's, you know, F for, for all the people maybe who have that position, who aren't doing something that great with it, I'm grateful for people like you, who are, you know, who are, who are finding, you know, the smart
2
And I want to, you know, I want to make cool little movies and stuff too. Like, I want to, you know, the, in the, in the film that, you know, you, when you do theater and you want to do that, like little black box show that everybody loves and has this crazy long run, you know, there's, there's a parallel to that in films, you make a movie for a million dollars or $2 million or whatever, and people love it. And it's, it's really cool. And it does a bunch of awesome festivals and makes it make, makes it it's money back. So you can make another movie, you know, and like, that's, I chased that as much as, as much as anything else, you know, but you also, you got to work.
2
And the thing about the, about doing the bigger movies, isn't that, it's, it's great to have that, to know that you're employed is incredibly, you know, I, that was, I was talking about being lucky earlier. Like I was lucky that I got Gilmore girls. I was, I, I was, you know, they liked me and kept having me back. So part of that was, was good stuff that I did was part of that was skill. But also I understood that I understood the tone really well. I understood what type of television show that was. And so the creator to the show, when she saw me, I think she knew that I got and wanted me to keep coming back.
2
And then I ended up on that, on that show for seven years. And I didn't, and I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have, you know, like I was into it, but I was also like, oh, I'm really I'm killing it right now. I got cast. And, you know, I was like, like, I, I just thought, like, if I laughed, I thought I'd just go do another TV show. Like, it would be that easy, you know, and it wasn't. And then I left and I was like, oh, I, I miss that. I miss having a, having a, a regular job and having a knowing, knowing where my next employment is coming from.
1
So you said that there were, so, I mean, we've all identified so many things that we didn't get from the theater school, but what do you bring into a job? You know, you're, if you're going on set tomorrow, what's one thing, you know, that you are bringing from your education at
3
DePaul? Well,
2
That's an, that's an interesting question just because I have so many hours on set now that it's hard to, it's hard to parse through what's, what's what I know that I know that first of all, just the reverence for the profession itself, you know, I look at acting as a vocation and a job, you know, but the, the whole idea that it is that what we're doing isn't stupid or frivolous like that, that was really important. And I know, I know that I was a much better actor when I grew up graduated from the theater school than I was when I went in.
2
I know that all of the pieces help helped make me better. John Jenkins technique class really stands out as something that it made me sort of, sort of helped me realize when, when I was in it, w like when you're in the pocket, like you can feel it. And that class helped me sort of isolate that. And all of just the nuts and bolts of things like breaking down a script and understanding, you know, the boring stuff, like, like knowing where beat changes are and knowing what to be changes and knowing that your intention shifts or changes, it changes like just real nuts and bolts stuff was certainly all incredibly important.
2
But I will say that having that, just getting reps being in front of the camera a lot of times helped me more than being in school dead, you know? And that th that, that the idea that the being that when we graduated, I don't know if anybody felt this way, but, but I think sometimes there's this idea that like, we're supposed to be these fully baked, you know, artists that were, that were like complete beings when we graduated. And just knowing that that's not it at all. Like, if, like you always have to be getting sad, or like, I would like, to me, it's, it's, it's, it's as important now, you know, the, the jobs that I'm doing now, it's like, it's super important to me that my work is better this year than it was last year.
2
You know? Like, if you want to keep getting better all the time, it's, it's not, you know, it's not, I love what
1
You said about reps in front of the, in front of the camera. Like, I think there is no substitute for me for practicing the real deal. And that was something that we didn't even touch on at school. Really. We have that little class, but like, I, there, I really feel like my education in, in the entertainment industry started the first job I booked. And it's still, and it's hard because you, you, if you don't get booked, you can't practice. So that's why people say classes and stuff like that. But I love what you're saying about like, the reps in front of the camera are so important and to do that, oh, I just, I it's.
1
So doing the thing is what makes the thing
2
Do, I mean, the school should be teaching more of that. I think, I don't know. I have a little bit of a bone to pick with them. Cause they never, they never contact me about anything. And I'm like, I have, like, I have the same chip on my shoulder. Yeah. I'm the same chip on my shoulder now, as I have, when I was there and I was like, I was like, I feel like I'm busting my ass and nobody cares. And now I'm like, now I'm like, Hey guys, I have a pretty good career. How come nobody's like calling me and ask me to do anything or whatever. I was really
1
Surprised about that. I can tell you why it is. It is because they don't and I'm just going to speak. Honestly, they don't have their shit together. They don't have their shit together. I teach there, I teach there
3
And I love them. I love
1
Them. And I teach, who knows. I mean, I teach, I teach, I teach acting. No, I teach acting. But I also, it was weird in a pandemic, but they don't have, I want to run that school. I'm like, wait a minute, let's get these people like Sean, got it. Let's get these people. Like these people know what they're doing. And they can also teach like different things. It's, it's a conservatory situation. It's a real, it's a real clusterfuck sometimes. So anyway, I have a bone to pick with them too, and they have a bone to pick with themselves and they don't know what they're doing. So yeah, by
2
The way, I've had long talks about whether the cut system is, is good or not. And because I was kind of on the fence about it, but, you know, I dunno some of them, well, what's your point of view? Well, no. I mean, I I'll tell you that, like, I don't know if you know Michael Rucker, but he actually went to the theater school in the eighties and I've worked with him now. I haven't done a bunch of movies together playing sidekick and the guardians movies. And he always said that when I told them that they quit doing the cuts system, he's like, oh, that's, that's it that's downhill from here on, out for that school.
2
He's like the cuts are the only thing that, that accurately represent what it's like out there in the cutthroat entertainment industry, acting industry is like the cuts are the only thing that give you some sense of what that is actually like, I don't know. I'm less sure. I, I don't feel sure one way or the other, because I think of my, my 20 year old self. And I think that I was almost caught, as I said for like, maybe if I blown that scene, I would've gotten cut and I'd be pretty pissed if I had, I don't know.
1
Yeah. Well, there's, there's a corollary to the damage that the cut system can do. Like people like Joseph Quora who take it as their personal mission after getting cut to, to spite the theater school and then wow. And end up having a great,
2
Oh, I think, yeah. It's definitely true that the people who get cuts and then are like, like really press on like it's it's of course a great example because he, he, but he's a guy who was probably cut because people thought he was, you know, because of who, because of, for whatever reason, the person that he was at 20 years old rubbed people the wrong way. And so they decided that they were going to like, yeah, something like that. I dunno. Just a heck of a good idea.
1
He was sort of defiant though. He's a very good actor. Yeah. Well, we're going to have to wrap up, but any little last anecdotes or stories you want to make sure to include, like anything you would say, anything you would say to someone who's like, Hey Sean Gunn, I'm going to go to DePaul. No, just get in front of the camera.
2
Yeah. Now they're never gonna invite me to do anything now that I said that, I mean, anything I would say to any, any person who was, who is about to embark on that journey of trying to do it is that like, is essentially that what other people think of you is always going to seem incredibly important in one way or another and you'll make it important, but it isn't, you know, it isn't, it's about the work that you're doing and getting better. And I do think that there's something, you know, I'm, I'm an old softie that I do still think there's something kind of beautiful and magical about not just pretending to be another person, but to try to share their lived experience.
2
That's what actors do. We're trying to like share with other humans. What the idea of being a human is, you know, when you cut it to its core and that that's not, that that's, that that's not stupid and it's not, and it's not the most important work in the world, but it's also not, it's not stupid. You know, it's real
1
Work. I love that because I feel like when I hear actors interviewed, even still, people are always still apologizing for, I know I'm not curing cancer. I know. And I think, I think it contributes to, because we don't have much in the way of arts education in this country, it contributes to a general feeling of like, yeah, of course everybody relies on culture and media every single day of their lives, but they have this way of compartmentalizing. It like it's frivolous. No, it's completely necessary. As we learn during the pandemic, when the first thing everybody started to do was binge television shows and watch movies. Yeah. I mean it, yeah, it's actually quite essential.
2
Yeah. It's essential and it's hard. It's like, it's like, it's not, it's not, it's not hard in the way that maybe, you know, the certain other jobs are hard, but it's like, like creating stories and presenting them and delivering them in a compelling way for people to get wrapped up in and enjoy or be moved by or whatever. It's not, it's not easy work, you know,
3
Anyway.
1
All right, Sean, where can people find you? I think you're on Instagram, right? I'm on Instagram.
2
I'm the judge gone on Instagram, Sean Gunn on Twitter. I do as much social media as I kind of need to, to keep my career relevant. Just like everything. It's sort of like a, you kinda just have to do it. How's that for plug for my own social media, I have a, I did this really cool indie movie called Agnes that just premiered at the Tribeca film festival. And I don't know when that'll be available, but it's coming out before long.
2
And I did I'm in the suicide squad, which is out August six, theaters everywhere. I did a show for Amazon called the terminal list that I did a really cool role on that. And I don't know when that's coming probably later this year, early next year. And then I saw thunder coming out spring. I'm going to shoot guardians three guardians of the galaxy. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.
1
Thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate
2
It. Thanks for having me and thanks for doing this podcast. It's really cool to hear people's stories and you know, whatever. Maybe we'll circle back and do it again. If you guys do a second round,
0
That would be fantastic. Actually, I I'm a for many people, I feel like if you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Piluchi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
0
Thank you.