WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:12.346 --> 00:00:18.406 Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.916 --> 00:00:20.416 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.416 --> 00:00:23.116 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:23.116 --> 00:00:23.176 Okay. 00:00:35.481 --> 00:00:37.611 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.611 --> 00:00:43.821 I am so excited to have on the program Michael Toth, who's the founder and CEO of instructional empowerment. 00:00:44.331 --> 00:00:49.041 And we're gonna talk about some awesome things about how to improve school for everybody. 00:00:49.041 --> 00:00:55.551 We're gonna talk about how we'd lied to everybody during the pandemic and, uh, told them school is optional. 00:00:56.001 --> 00:00:59.241 Um, or rather, lemme rephrase that. 00:01:00.441 --> 00:01:02.031 We're gonna talk about how. 00:01:03.351 --> 00:01:04.851 The pandemic changed things. 00:01:05.781 --> 00:01:10.671 We had been lying to students and they suddenly learned during the pandemic that school is optional. 00:01:10.671 --> 00:01:11.331 And guess what? 00:01:11.331 --> 00:01:13.161 They have not forgotten that lesson. 00:01:14.091 --> 00:01:20.391 There are a lot of other things that we have done and there's a way to fix it and to make things better. 00:01:20.661 --> 00:01:27.471 So I hope you enjoy this conversation about how to do that, and I look forward to you learning from Michael Toth. 00:01:27.531 --> 00:01:28.221 Here we go. 00:01:32.631 --> 00:01:38.871 Also, this is one of those things where Michael and I just started talking, so I just hit record. 00:01:39.021 --> 00:01:40.191 That's how it goes sometimes. 00:01:40.191 --> 00:01:41.151 This was a good episode. 00:01:41.211 --> 00:01:41.511 Enjoy. 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:56.200 let's set the stage just a little bit, um, because as, as I mentioned, the, the real challenge that we face is that technology can do things better than humans. 00:01:56.260 --> 00:02:02.290 And if it's just about teaching the very basic academic stuff. 00:02:03.235 --> 00:02:05.155 That's all the education is about then? 00:02:05.155 --> 00:02:05.815 Yes. 00:02:06.025 --> 00:02:15.175 Uh, I think that technology, we should turn it over to technology to teach our students, but teaching is about so much more than that. 00:02:15.535 --> 00:02:16.870 So what would you say to that, Michael? 00:02:18.805 --> 00:02:22.105 I, I would first of all agree teaching so much more than that. 00:02:22.105 --> 00:02:29.370 So I, first thing I, I, a question I like to ask educators is, is this about, is education about. 00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:34.060 Educating or developing students, which, 00:02:34.180 --> 00:02:34.540 Mm. 00:02:36.010 --> 00:02:40.005 and you can't, I have never been in a situation where somebody hasn't said both. 00:02:41.245 --> 00:02:44.905 And as soon as you say development, what are we developing? 00:02:44.935 --> 00:02:47.995 We're developing character self-control. 00:02:47.995 --> 00:02:52.405 We're developing communication, problem solving skills. 00:02:52.435 --> 00:02:55.885 These, it is not just content acquisition and retrieval. 00:02:56.755 --> 00:03:00.020 And as soon as we get into the development conversation, computers are. 00:03:01.540 --> 00:03:26.860 They, they're, they're the opposite of, of the human experience and the real concern when you study neuroscience, and my co-author of my last book, the Power Student Teams, was David Sousa and David's very famed neuroscience, uh, expert, is we really went down the path of what's scaring us is that. 00:03:27.880 --> 00:03:37.240 Where kids are on screen so much, they're becoming moving from being human-centric development to computer centric or device centric development. 00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:39.340 And so we have empathy loss. 00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:42.400 We also have brain matter loss, which is 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:43.660 On just a 00:03:43.870 --> 00:03:44.200 Sure. 00:03:44.200 --> 00:03:48.760 come back to the brain matter loss, but talk about that device centric development. 00:03:48.790 --> 00:03:51.400 What is, what does that mean and how is that different? 00:03:52.030 --> 00:03:54.405 Device centric development is similar to addiction. 00:03:56.485 --> 00:03:59.785 That it's triggering the dopamine pathways. 00:03:59.815 --> 00:04:06.595 I mean, this is exactly what social media and gaming actually programs for. 00:04:07.105 --> 00:04:14.850 And what you find is Silicon Valley pushed, uh, private equity, pushed venture capital, pushed technology to kids. 00:04:15.925 --> 00:04:25.165 Is bringing what the game-based learning and, and it's the same process here, is that it's high stimulation, but it's not. 00:04:25.495 --> 00:04:27.445 Learning is not its own reward. 00:04:27.745 --> 00:04:28.465 It's the game. 00:04:29.485 --> 00:04:35.095 And so what you're doing is actually developing some negative, uh, consequences to that. 00:04:35.455 --> 00:04:38.215 We're having eroded communication skills. 00:04:38.335 --> 00:04:38.965 We are having. 00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:46.090 Epidemic of anxiety with today's students, and that's because of the amount of screen time. 00:04:47.110 --> 00:05:03.190 Uh, we are finding that brain loss in around the areas of the brain necessary in the hippocampus and cerebral cortex around, uh, reading comprehension, particularly deep learning. 00:05:03.640 --> 00:05:04.510 Deep reading. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.990 Well, these are really important skills. 00:05:08.575 --> 00:05:21.835 And so the more we outsource our tier one, the computer based learning, the more we descale teachers and not invest in, in really powerful pedagogy for deeper learning. 00:05:21.835 --> 00:05:24.625 And that's, that's my argument. 00:05:26.155 --> 00:05:30.895 And we, that's what our research center studies is a model of instruction for deep learning. 00:05:30.895 --> 00:05:35.615 Because our legacy system is, uh, was PR. 00:05:38.905 --> 00:05:41.995 I know I'm being a little random here, but let me go back and talk about this. 00:05:42.025 --> 00:05:43.585 'cause I, I think it's really interesting. 00:05:43.585 --> 00:05:47.935 Where, where did our legacy model of teacher centric instruction come from? 00:05:48.565 --> 00:05:51.505 When was it popular rise? 00:05:52.645 --> 00:05:54.865 I mean, you could argue it was always there, but. 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:00.330 Yeah, but you know, I think about the way that, um. 00:06:01.150 --> 00:06:05.320 were taught in the ancient times, like Plato, Aristotle, that area. 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.190 It was through, uh, discussion, through talking 00:06:09.335 --> 00:06:09.825 Exactly. 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:15.520 with a, with a tutor, um, a, a mentor if you will. 00:06:15.850 --> 00:06:28.450 There's been a lot of talk about, um, it, the geniuses of the 16th, 17th, and 18th century all had tutors that were working with them one-on-one. 00:06:29.455 --> 00:06:42.265 It wasn't until, I would say, probably late 18 hundreds when we really got to this current system of one teacher as a source of all authority with 30 kids in front of her. 00:06:42.535 --> 00:06:48.835 Sometimes in a one room schoolhouse, sometimes broken up into grade levels, but that's, that's, that's where I it. 00:06:48.900 --> 00:06:50.155 Our, our modern. 00:06:51.565 --> 00:06:54.955 System actually is, is really formed. 00:06:54.955 --> 00:07:06.595 When we went from that one room schoolhouse, which served an agricultural economy and agricultural workers, most people worked on farms to the industrial age. 00:07:06.595 --> 00:07:14.780 So it was pre right in the early industrial age when we started getting schools as we know them today, and the pedagogy that we know today, and it was around control. 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:17.530 Same as it is today. 00:07:17.530 --> 00:07:23.680 Teachers, the dominant provider of knowledge, students are in a dependent directed state most of the time. 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:29.050 And there, you know, there's a range of that that's, that's more severe, less severe. 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:35.740 Uh, but that's the predominant way pedagogy is taught today that, that we. 00:07:36.130 --> 00:07:53.290 That fountain of knowledge ends up being the teacher and the students are developing skills to sit in the chair, have enough self-regulation to be able to listen, and then something happened at the pandemic and we keep waiting for kids to go back. 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:54.310 They're never going back. 00:07:55.090 --> 00:07:57.790 They changed and what it, they didn't change. 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:00.850 It's an acceleration of the change that was happening anyway. 00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:11.050 Right, because when you talk to teachers about how this negative behavior misbehavior has been been happening, it really accelerated after the pandemic. 00:08:11.050 --> 00:08:12.310 But it was there before. 00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:18.190 And if you looked at the teacher satisfaction surveys, you see that trend line that just accelerated dramatically. 00:08:19.510 --> 00:08:22.810 We put kids on computers constantly. 00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:27.325 We remove them from human interaction during the pandemic. 00:08:28.555 --> 00:08:33.745 And they have absolutely changed and the the new ones coming up are also changed. 00:08:33.745 --> 00:08:34.465 So go back. 00:08:34.465 --> 00:08:37.885 When was the first smartphone released? 00:08:38.725 --> 00:08:42.310 The iPhone in 2007, but it was expensive. 00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:42.760 was born. 00:08:43.555 --> 00:08:46.855 It was expensive, so a lot of kids didn't get it. 00:08:47.305 --> 00:08:48.505 But it's ubiquitous now. 00:08:48.505 --> 00:08:58.915 So we, our teachers today have the first generation that was raised on the super addictive devices and social media. 00:09:00.085 --> 00:09:08.245 They have all the male development in the brain that has come with that. 00:09:08.695 --> 00:09:11.395 And there's something called, uh, device parenting. 00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:14.380 And again, we're, we're not making a judgment on it. 00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:15.220 I get it. 00:09:15.310 --> 00:09:26.110 I mean, if you're in a restaurant and there's a couple toddlers really outta control what the parents used to do, they used to correct them. 00:09:26.170 --> 00:09:32.500 They used to, to have them exercise self-control, speak respectfully, teach them boundaries. 00:09:32.500 --> 00:09:35.710 Instead they give 'em an iPad and that, you know, it's like magic. 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:37.870 It works like the whole restaurant's like, yay. 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:39.370 Uh. 00:09:40.375 --> 00:09:43.915 But they didn't learn those skills. 00:09:43.915 --> 00:09:45.805 Those skills were not exercised. 00:09:45.865 --> 00:09:50.755 So what we have today is that rolls into the classroom. 00:09:50.755 --> 00:09:53.365 So the misbehavior is simply a lack of development. 00:09:53.875 --> 00:09:54.745 That's what it is. 00:09:55.435 --> 00:09:57.115 So teachers go. 00:09:57.145 --> 00:10:05.845 I can, if I can go back a second there, there's another thing that that happened during the pandemic that we, we have to confront also. 00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:19.450 And this speaks to the issue of control, and you're talking about behavior and behavior is not an issue unless the kids are not doing what you want them to, which is what the issue is really here, and especially in our schools. 00:10:19.450 --> 00:10:28.870 But the other thing that happened during the pandemic is that we, our, our students learned that we've been lying about everything for so long. 00:10:29.260 --> 00:10:35.800 We said, tests are super important, school is super important, and then we just canceled everything all across the world. 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:38.020 For, for what? 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:50.950 To them was not going to harm them because it wasn't, it, it harmed older people and those people work in our schools, and I'm not saying that that was like to, to do that. 00:10:50.950 --> 00:10:53.830 What I'm saying is our kids experienced something. 00:10:54.760 --> 00:10:57.640 Everything they told were told was important. 00:10:57.910 --> 00:10:59.680 We could cancel in a heartbeat. 00:10:59.770 --> 00:11:06.340 And this thing that was not going to hurt them most likely, uh, was the cause of it. 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:15.250 And just like that we told them that we lied about it all and every kid who was alive at that time understood that. 00:11:15.550 --> 00:11:20.230 And they are teaching that to their peers, whether or not they can articulate it, that is exactly what happened. 00:11:21.150 --> 00:11:23.190 So I'm gonna frame it just slightly differently. 00:11:23.190 --> 00:11:27.570 I think what it taught parents and students is schools optional. 00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:31.770 And that's why we have chronic atten attendance issues. 00:11:31.770 --> 00:11:32.610 Schools optional. 00:11:33.090 --> 00:11:35.280 I grew up, did you get a personal day? 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:37.650 Was there a mental health day when you were growing up? 00:11:37.650 --> 00:11:39.660 You could say, parent, I wanna stay home today. 00:11:40.810 --> 00:11:41.090 absolutely 00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:42.360 is common now. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:44.190 It is common now. 00:11:44.910 --> 00:11:45.690 Uh. 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:46.840 It. 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:58.180 So my, my point of this is that what teachers are facing in the classroom is literally a different student and we can see it in, in the brain scans. 00:11:58.180 --> 00:12:01.270 It's fascinating to study it that change over time. 00:12:01.810 --> 00:12:08.920 The narrow science on male development due to excessive screen time, which includes ed tech by the way. 00:12:10.030 --> 00:12:11.290 It's all screen time. 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:12.940 It is not. 00:12:13.750 --> 00:12:23.890 As bad, obviously as, um, excessive screen time with short, short videos, TikTok, whatnot, that, that super addictive form. 00:12:24.700 --> 00:12:30.730 But when you're on a screen, I don't care what you're doing, let's say a tech, you know what's not developing 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:40.750 all the human skills, all the human side, and that is going to produce a graduate. 00:12:41.020 --> 00:12:45.910 That is going to go out with male development of that human side. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:53.200 And we have a massive problem of lack of empathy in society today in part because of this. 00:12:53.830 --> 00:12:57.730 So, you know, to build that back in is we have to have relationships. 00:12:57.730 --> 00:13:00.460 We have to have, uh, like I talked about this. 00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:07.150 Students today growing up with massive anxiety when, so this is, this is this dichotomy. 00:13:07.150 --> 00:13:13.600 We're the most connected society ever in history and the most lonely society in history. 00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:19.030 We don't eat together, we don't talk together, we don't make eye contact together. 00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:27.220 And it's awkward for young people to do so, particularly when they're outside of a a small peer group. 00:13:28.030 --> 00:13:28.840 But these are life skills. 00:13:31.105 --> 00:13:50.845 The other thing that's happened is that the media's become so addictive and so hyper, um, bringing you in and you have such a choice on what you, you do that kids talk about having to power down in the classroom 'cause it's so disengaging. 00:13:50.845 --> 00:13:56.845 It's almost painful for them to sit in a chair and listen to a teacher because they're different. 00:13:58.345 --> 00:13:59.305 I didn't have that problem. 00:13:59.305 --> 00:14:02.455 I got bored, but I sat there and behaved because you had to. 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:03.270 Mm-hmm. 00:14:03.415 --> 00:14:04.495 was the expectation. 00:14:04.525 --> 00:14:06.415 That is not the expectation today. 00:14:06.415 --> 00:14:07.705 It's a different society. 00:14:08.095 --> 00:14:09.745 It's more permissive parenting. 00:14:10.045 --> 00:14:13.165 I'm not judging it, but that spills into the classroom. 00:14:13.165 --> 00:14:24.055 My whole point of this is that teachers have been underinvested in and ill-equipped with a legacy pedagogy to engage today's students. 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:29.230 We have found today's students incredibly smart and capable. 00:14:29.890 --> 00:14:38.230 They do have, uh, developmental deficits that we didn't have before, and school has to recognize that and we have to change. 00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:49.345 So when we work with teachers with this pedagogy for deeper learning, and it is a very specific research-based pedagogy that gets just crazy learning gains. 00:14:50.710 --> 00:15:00.040 So we started this as a research center, like how do we get kids to engage in high level critical thinking, independent of the teacher leading their own learning? 00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:02.380 How do we get students so engaged? 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:09.250 They engage in a high level discourse and argumentation, and they stay in emotional control. 00:15:09.255 --> 00:15:12.190 Why they do it and they develop empathy and care for each other. 00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:17.170 That goal is absolutely achievable, but not today's pedagogy. 00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:24.280 We have found that we had to create structures and norms and different classroom management. 00:15:24.280 --> 00:15:25.690 You plan your lesson different. 00:15:26.020 --> 00:15:33.880 The teacher has to move from director to facilitator to coach if they're during an extended task time. 00:15:34.210 --> 00:15:38.830 And what we found is that misbehavior went down dramatically. 00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:46.840 Teacher satisfaction went up, achievement gaps closed for all reporting categories, all reporting categories. 00:15:47.695 --> 00:15:58.075 Uh, and the students had a better experience, but what the students were reporting is they have meaningful relationships with the students in their teams. 00:15:58.075 --> 00:15:59.605 They have new friend groups. 00:16:00.025 --> 00:16:03.625 The attendance went up, enrollment went up. 00:16:03.625 --> 00:16:08.875 We weren't even factoring those things in, but you know, why they started coming to school more? 00:16:08.875 --> 00:16:10.285 'cause they didn't wanna let their team know. 00:16:13.285 --> 00:16:15.055 It's just, um. 00:16:15.760 --> 00:16:19.120 It changed the life of the teachers that went through this. 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:23.770 We have such great videos of teachers talking about how this is reinvigorating them. 00:16:23.770 --> 00:16:25.810 Teaching became a joy again. 00:16:26.170 --> 00:16:31.570 The students are leaving tired, more tired than they are, and that hasn't happened in a long time. 00:16:31.780 --> 00:16:32.070 Yeah. 00:16:32.845 --> 00:16:41.725 Well, you know, it's, it's so fascinating because I did this at my, at the last middle school that I was principal of, and we, we forced them. 00:16:42.355 --> 00:16:57.395 To change by, by doing things a little bit different and what we had to do, the thing that that made it click for our teachers was we took students out of the general class time and we put them in a different time period and said. 00:16:58.090 --> 00:17:01.450 This time, which we called Synergy is how we did it. 00:17:01.510 --> 00:17:07.720 And we, we helped teachers go from being a sage on the stage, which is what the legacy system was, to 00:17:07.735 --> 00:17:08.035 right. 00:17:08.350 --> 00:17:10.390 on the side, which they could do. 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:14.950 And we helped coach them through that during, during the time to a compass. 00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:25.000 And that was the, that's the phrasing that I use, that you be a compass among the students so that you're not the one who's saying this is what has to be accomplished. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:26.560 You're saying here's the North Star. 00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:27.070 And when kids. 00:17:28.060 --> 00:17:36.700 where the North Star is, then they can determine their own path about where to get, what to do, to get to where they need to be with support of the teacher. 00:17:37.030 --> 00:17:40.280 And the other thing that I imagine your teachers probably say also is that. 00:17:41.095 --> 00:17:45.895 Not was teaching more fun, but it was actually significantly easier 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:46.630 Hmm. 00:17:46.855 --> 00:17:52.165 you weren't spending all your time making these things that the kids were gonna hate, that you were gonna have to fight with them about you. 00:17:52.165 --> 00:18:03.235 Instead, were spending your time answering specific questions, supporting students in the things they were interested in, so that when you came back as a teacher with a solution, the kids were like, oh, that's great. 00:18:03.235 --> 00:18:04.105 Why didn't I think of that? 00:18:04.105 --> 00:18:05.370 I'm gonna go do that right now. 00:18:06.055 --> 00:18:09.895 And figure out how to do it myself, which is so much more fun as a teacher. 00:18:09.895 --> 00:18:28.735 We all go into education for those light bulb moments, but our current system does not allow us to ever have those because no kid's gonna have a light bulb moment from on a, uh, on a tool that, you know, just quizzes them constantly or on an ed tech tool or, uh, just sitting there doing a worksheet. 00:18:28.795 --> 00:18:33.835 And, and that's, that's the beauty of, of what this thing developed for our teachers. 00:18:33.835 --> 00:18:35.390 And I'm sure something similar with your teachers. 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:37.460 A hundred percent. 00:18:37.580 --> 00:18:44.120 Um, what, what we're studying is how to do this at scale and how to do it. 00:18:44.360 --> 00:18:48.020 Uh, so there's always been outlier teachers that have done this. 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:51.440 So we, we need to acknowledge, there's always been great teaching. 00:18:51.985 --> 00:19:02.965 But it tends to be in more pockets of more wealthy students, middle class, upper middle class students that have access to AP courses and so forth. 00:19:02.995 --> 00:19:04.795 That's where you tend to see it. 00:19:05.335 --> 00:19:13.285 Then you get into, uh, you know, your general track and you're like, okay, why don't we see all classrooms like that? 00:19:13.825 --> 00:19:15.325 Why don't we see classrooms like. 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:22.900 That predominantly in schools that serve black and brown students, low socioeconomic status, students Title one schools. 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.390 But that's what we study. 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:27.310 How do you scale that? 00:19:27.370 --> 00:19:31.570 And we have done this with Title one school after Title one school after Title one school. 00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:44.860 'cause our, our social mission at instructional empowerment, and it comes from my experiences of being raised in poverty, is that to end generational poverty through strengthening tier one instruction. 00:19:45.865 --> 00:19:47.665 And we believe that's the key. 00:19:47.725 --> 00:19:48.205 The key. 00:19:48.205 --> 00:19:51.835 It's not, you cannot intervention your way to proficiency. 00:19:51.835 --> 00:19:53.935 You must strengthen tier one. 00:19:53.935 --> 00:19:55.255 And it has to be rigorous. 00:19:55.675 --> 00:20:04.195 It has to be student led, and it has to develop students while we're educating students by giving them the agency skills that they need. 00:20:04.195 --> 00:20:05.905 A traditional classroom. 00:20:05.965 --> 00:20:10.525 A teacher-centered classroom actually suppresses the development of agency. 00:20:10.525 --> 00:20:20.155 When you look at the research, the research is creating an autonomy supported learning environment and, um, self-determination theory. 00:20:20.245 --> 00:20:25.105 There's all kinds of, of really interesting theories behind this work that are very deep. 00:20:25.105 --> 00:20:27.145 It's how humans are, are wired. 00:20:27.145 --> 00:20:28.705 They have to have voice and choice. 00:20:29.125 --> 00:20:34.410 They have to learning rote memorization is boring. 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:36.580 There's some you have to do. 00:20:36.580 --> 00:20:40.660 You have to know your times tables, you have to have certain things, facts that you're fluent with. 00:20:42.070 --> 00:20:46.360 But what is fascinating to kids is debating how to apply it. 00:20:47.530 --> 00:20:55.330 Transferring what knowledge from one discipline to the next, and seeing the inner relationships to understand how the world works. 00:20:56.290 --> 00:20:59.650 And what we find is they will debate and argue that for. 00:21:00.310 --> 00:21:02.620 And they are just enthralled by it. 00:21:02.620 --> 00:21:06.070 The teachers are just like setting back and orchestrating that. 00:21:06.070 --> 00:21:07.120 They're like, wow. 00:21:08.290 --> 00:21:08.920 Wow. 00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:15.070 And it, it, it is relatively easy to get this going once you know the structures. 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.560 Uh, but what, go ahead. 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:18.790 about those structures 00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:19.060 Mm-hmm. 00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:22.240 what do we need to be implementing to make this happen. 00:21:23.380 --> 00:21:28.990 So our research shows that that unstructured groups creates uneven learning. 00:21:30.310 --> 00:21:36.190 The worst type of group that you can form is a, um, ability group. 00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:40.450 Uh, we, our research is incredibly clear. 00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:43.390 You have to have mixed ability teams, not groups. 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:45.730 Teams require in their dependent tasks. 00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:47.230 So they have to work together. 00:21:47.770 --> 00:21:47.830 Um. 00:21:49.105 --> 00:21:51.235 They have to have discussion protocols. 00:21:51.235 --> 00:21:54.745 They have to have norms, team norms, and they have to have roles. 00:21:54.745 --> 00:22:06.415 So we have team member facilitator learning monitors, our basic role package to get started, but then you have to feed curricular resources and rigor to that. 00:22:06.505 --> 00:22:10.015 And what we're looking for is something called productive struggle. 00:22:10.780 --> 00:22:13.840 So productive struggles when kids, it's not boring. 00:22:13.840 --> 00:22:15.610 It's not actually struggle at all. 00:22:15.610 --> 00:22:21.610 It means they have to work with each other to get to the solution because they're not on easy task anywhere. 00:22:21.610 --> 00:22:23.920 There no worksheet in this learning environment. 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:36.075 No worksheets and unproductive struggle happens when you give a rigorous test to a bunch of kids that do not have the strategies on how to form little peer learning support. 00:22:37.495 --> 00:22:52.915 So what we do is we give a toolbox of strategies to students so they can work together to move from unproductive to productive struggle, which means the learning's moving forward, unproductive struggle, the learning's not moving forward, and they don't know how to get unstuck. 00:22:53.815 --> 00:22:59.455 We coach teachers on whenever that happens, how to get them unstuck quickly without giving the answer. 00:22:59.725 --> 00:23:05.095 Keep the students in an inquiry mode through that process and. 00:23:06.130 --> 00:23:07.810 Yeah, and here's the magic with it. 00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:09.520 Why mixed ability groups? 00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:20.560 We want students with IEPs, with students without, we want English language learners with, uh, native speakers gifted and talented with everybody else. 00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:21.100 Why? 00:23:21.550 --> 00:23:24.670 Because they share background knowledge. 00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:30.820 And so the big thing that our flawed accountability system. 00:23:31.705 --> 00:23:36.745 Shows you can predict test results by the wealth of zip codes. 00:23:39.205 --> 00:23:42.145 Well, what, what makes a wealth of a zip code different? 00:23:42.205 --> 00:23:46.705 Yes, there's enhanced structures typically to support schooling. 00:23:46.795 --> 00:23:50.065 Wealthier parents, higher tutors do tutoring. 00:23:50.455 --> 00:23:55.675 They provide structures, but they speak with different vocabularies. 00:23:55.885 --> 00:23:59.155 They have different exposures, background knowledge. 00:23:59.695 --> 00:24:03.775 So what tests pick up is a lot of background knowledge and support from home. 00:24:04.255 --> 00:24:12.775 We think it's tier one, but often what we find is the tier one's pretty much very similar between a lower performing, a higher performing school. 00:24:13.045 --> 00:24:21.835 The students are different, the background knowledge is different, the support's different, uh, and the discipline, et cetera is different. 00:24:21.835 --> 00:24:25.010 So they're, they're figuring out, you know what our. 00:24:25.840 --> 00:24:32.590 Goal when we're working with students that don't come with a lot of well-developed agency yet. 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:34.000 So I wanna be very clear. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:45.370 All students of all races, backgrounds, religions, cultures, genders, identities have equal potential to develop high agency skills. 00:24:45.370 --> 00:24:49.060 Not all have equal opportunity to develop those skills. 00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:49.690 Skills. 00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:50.980 I mean, I came from poverty. 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:51.190 I get it. 00:24:52.810 --> 00:24:59.320 What a lot of that growing up in a trailer park, you know, it's, it's different, right? 00:24:59.560 --> 00:25:05.500 Uh, you're learning agency, but you're learning very different agency than what we call student agency. 00:25:05.530 --> 00:25:08.950 So we have to develop those skills. 00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:11.710 So we provide the structures for students to be able to work together. 00:25:11.740 --> 00:25:16.180 'cause they may not know how to do that, how to de deescalate conflict. 00:25:16.180 --> 00:25:19.510 'cause they will have conflict when you get into content discourse. 00:25:19.975 --> 00:25:22.435 And you can't take it personal to depersonalizes. 00:25:22.435 --> 00:25:29.335 We teach these our code agency skills and students develop really rapidly. 00:25:29.875 --> 00:25:36.985 Now, they may not get these at home where you could have, if you're in a blessed situation where you have an AP classroom and. 00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:43.060 Kids already coming from Advantage households, you can just start going into some of these methods. 00:25:43.060 --> 00:25:46.480 But everywhere else, we have to actually build that foundation. 00:25:47.230 --> 00:25:56.380 And once we get that foundation where they learn how to self-regulate with each other, how to peer regulate something called collective efficacy starts taking, manifesting. 00:25:57.190 --> 00:26:02.740 Wow, do we see that sense of belonging and they just start taking off? 00:26:03.220 --> 00:26:04.720 So we're doing two things. 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:18.610 We are developing students, we're very intent on developing these agency skills while we're using that and leveraging it to develop the cognitive or the, the, uh, academic skills. 00:26:19.825 --> 00:26:23.575 And you can't separate those two and school separates them all the time. 00:26:23.575 --> 00:26:36.325 We take these kids that, that come from lower socioeconomic status and uh, we put 'em in high control environments and think PBIS is going to be enough and it isn't. 00:26:36.415 --> 00:26:43.075 I can tell you story after story where we go into schools and they, I always am like, what's your number one issue? 00:26:43.075 --> 00:26:46.765 So these are historically lower performing schools. 00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:48.790 What is the issue? 00:26:49.870 --> 00:26:50.860 And they say, behavior. 00:26:51.070 --> 00:26:52.990 Alright, let's go walk classrooms. 00:26:53.020 --> 00:26:53.500 Guess what? 00:26:53.590 --> 00:26:54.520 It's not behavior. 00:26:54.820 --> 00:26:56.020 It's boring instruction. 00:26:57.910 --> 00:26:58.360 Amen. 00:26:58.420 --> 00:26:58.840 And that 00:26:58.870 --> 00:27:00.550 And so they're, they're misbehaving. 00:27:00.550 --> 00:27:02.230 But because of that, I'm sorry, go ahead. 00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:02.260 I. 00:27:02.950 --> 00:27:12.430 Well, that's the key is that we think that the, the symptoms we see are the cause of the, of the symptoms and they're not. 00:27:12.850 --> 00:27:17.290 We see kids misbehaving and we think behavior is a problem, but really. 00:27:18.040 --> 00:27:21.190 Your kids are bored outta their minds and they don't want to be there, and 00:27:21.310 --> 00:27:25.570 And these, today's kids get bored easily. 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:27.040 They are different. 00:27:27.130 --> 00:27:32.500 We, I was bored, by the way, but I sat there and took it because you had to. 00:27:33.385 --> 00:27:36.565 And if you got a note home to your teacher Yeah, it wasn't fun at home. 00:27:36.805 --> 00:27:39.265 That's, it's a different situation today. 00:27:39.775 --> 00:27:41.815 You, you correct a child. 00:27:41.815 --> 00:27:44.725 The parent might be coming back after you as a teacher, right. 00:27:45.385 --> 00:27:46.675 Different world today. 00:27:49.067 --> 00:27:50.177 So one of the things 00:27:50.357 --> 00:28:08.507 that I want to go back to what you were saying is, is this idea of the, the power of shared background knowledge and how that, is really powerful and that is, that is something that we have tried to through tier one instruction tried to solve by just giving everybody that information. 00:28:09.722 --> 00:28:22.682 is, is that if you just, if you just put the information out there and say, here it is, kids, just because a kid is present in your class doesn't mean that they're actually going to learn what you're teaching. 00:28:22.682 --> 00:28:28.232 And, and the reason why I bring this up is that we think that we are doing a good job. 00:28:28.682 --> 00:28:36.212 And, and, and the way that I have, have put this together in my mind is that if you are not taking action. 00:28:36.602 --> 00:28:38.582 Then you're not going to learn. 00:28:38.642 --> 00:28:49.952 So if you are not taking action in the learning process, which as you're talking about would be having this discussion with your peers, with your team, and having a role in doing something. 00:28:50.297 --> 00:28:52.127 Then you're not you. 00:28:52.217 --> 00:29:03.557 We can't be sure that you're going to learn it, but if you have to discuss the issue and give your perspective or give your background knowledge, then that is a thing that helps you know that somebody is learning. 00:29:03.887 --> 00:29:15.977 If they're passively receiving everything, a teacher lecture or just filling out a worksheet that's not action on their part, student has to take action in order for that learning to actually sink in and be part of it. 00:29:16.277 --> 00:29:17.297 What would you say to that? 00:29:17.817 --> 00:29:19.512 Uh, what a hundred percent. 00:29:19.512 --> 00:29:29.502 So what we find is that teachers often, uh, conflate teaching with learning, but they're two separate processes. 00:29:29.982 --> 00:29:32.322 One, the teacher does one, the student does one. 00:29:32.322 --> 00:29:36.582 And if the, if you set up the classroom correctly, and again, this is a flaw of our his. 00:29:37.157 --> 00:29:38.297 Historical way. 00:29:38.297 --> 00:29:41.717 We have taught pedagogy to teachers, not teachers' fault. 00:29:42.437 --> 00:29:43.937 To me, teachers are heroes. 00:29:43.937 --> 00:29:49.757 They're working far too hard with an antiquated pedagogy that's not equipped for today's students. 00:29:50.387 --> 00:29:53.602 But what you have to do is start right sizing the lecture. 00:29:55.082 --> 00:30:01.712 And giving extended learning time to students where they are engaged with each other around a rigorous task. 00:30:01.712 --> 00:30:12.092 And you have to get curricular high quality curricular resources, uh, complex text into their hand and getting them digging into it with really good inquiry questions. 00:30:13.232 --> 00:30:14.882 Unless you do that. 00:30:15.662 --> 00:30:17.942 And, and then you, you have the mixed ability. 00:30:17.942 --> 00:30:22.232 So let me talk about the mixed ability and background knowledge and give you a couple examples. 00:30:22.232 --> 00:30:32.852 So in the average math class, uh, and this is a, a fact, uh, shared with me with the famous Dylan William, who's just brilliant. 00:30:32.852 --> 00:30:34.322 I enjoy working with Dylan. 00:30:35.012 --> 00:30:41.672 Um, the average math classroom has five to six different grade levels of ability. 00:30:42.242 --> 00:30:43.472 That's just normal today. 00:30:44.282 --> 00:30:47.582 So that's a lot to ask for a teacher to try to personalize. 00:30:47.582 --> 00:30:56.702 This is another reason why they falsely, in my opinion, wanna put kids on computers to personalize that when the reality is a team can do that so much better. 00:30:57.032 --> 00:31:03.542 So when you do a mixed ability team there, there's students stronger and not as strong in math on the same one. 00:31:03.542 --> 00:31:05.342 But so math is procedural. 00:31:05.612 --> 00:31:09.722 You may not be able to do the equation simply because you don't have some of the previous. 00:31:10.097 --> 00:31:21.797 Uh, procedures down, but somebody does and they start tutoring each other and working through it, sharing that, and they socialize that background knowledge much better than the teacher does at the small group table. 00:31:22.997 --> 00:31:27.407 Much better 'cause they're able to personalize and, and break it down for each other. 00:31:27.617 --> 00:31:30.347 They're quite amazing at at, at peer tutoring. 00:31:30.407 --> 00:31:31.307 Honest to goodness. 00:31:32.402 --> 00:31:40.247 And the teachers still can pull during the lesson, kids that, that are still struggling into a small table and, and remediate it up quickly. 00:31:40.247 --> 00:31:41.567 But they just get a little frustrated. 00:31:41.567 --> 00:31:48.737 You pull 'em out of the team, they wanna be back with their team, then take, uh, reading comprehension. 00:31:48.737 --> 00:31:57.737 So once we have, you know, they can decode and are fluent and emmic awareness of phonics, we got to get them into. 00:31:58.622 --> 00:32:03.812 To first of all where they need to be in nonfiction texts that build background knowledge. 00:32:03.812 --> 00:32:05.492 Like this is essential. 00:32:06.572 --> 00:32:18.272 You know, when I went to school is all fiction, holy K 12 fiction, uh, where you've learned out of the reading sciences that we have to build background knowledge through text. 00:32:18.782 --> 00:32:19.442 And so there's. 00:32:20.117 --> 00:32:23.507 Pretty famed research study called the Baseball Story. 00:32:23.507 --> 00:32:35.147 And so they had students that were really good at reading comprehension and those that struggled in reading comprehension and they gave 'em a pretty technical piece on baseball. 00:32:36.317 --> 00:32:38.777 Uh, so it was not gonna be easy to read. 00:32:38.837 --> 00:32:42.647 The kids that had good reading comprehension skills, they did fine with it. 00:32:42.647 --> 00:32:45.807 The kids that struggled, there were two groups, those who. 00:32:46.892 --> 00:32:54.122 Played baseball and those who didn't, those who played baseball but struggled, did extraordinary under reading comprehension. 00:32:54.542 --> 00:32:57.632 Well, they didn't come masterful readers overnight. 00:32:57.632 --> 00:32:58.202 What was it? 00:32:58.622 --> 00:33:05.402 They got the vocabulary, they had the background knowledge, they could make sense of the piece and they could read it more deeply. 00:33:06.212 --> 00:33:09.062 Now, when you go, that's all, all done individually. 00:33:09.062 --> 00:33:13.892 So when you put that into a team, somebody's gonna have more background knowledge on that piece. 00:33:14.507 --> 00:33:18.557 And they get to share that and, and socialize that experience. 00:33:18.797 --> 00:33:21.497 That's the discourse you have to have around text. 00:33:21.707 --> 00:33:31.757 I get so frustrated when I am in, uh, see these really small clicked pieces of text, so they're not very deep anyway. 00:33:31.757 --> 00:33:32.267 They might be. 00:33:33.182 --> 00:33:41.492 Technically complex or grade level, but they're just not deep enough to build background knowledge and kids surface learning, diagramming and whatnot like they're that. 00:33:41.552 --> 00:33:45.962 You just took it to a retrieval level, something that's a rich content building. 00:33:46.412 --> 00:33:51.842 We want kids to practice precise vocabulary in their argumentation and discourse. 00:33:51.842 --> 00:33:53.012 This is essential. 00:33:53.162 --> 00:33:59.087 It's one of building background knowledge, and building vocabulary is essential to closing gaps. 00:33:59.677 --> 00:34:02.797 Academic gaps, and particularly reading comprehension. 00:34:02.797 --> 00:34:11.947 I think after the NATE data, you saw it, 70% of the United States children are not proficient in reading comprehension. 00:34:12.757 --> 00:34:18.967 70%. We went backwards since the pandemic because again, kids have changed. 00:34:18.967 --> 00:34:28.807 Their brains are rewired because of this constant exposure to high engagement, high dopamine level. 00:34:29.612 --> 00:34:31.502 So you short video. 00:34:31.502 --> 00:34:38.522 So when we were kids, I'm older than you, so I'll say, when I was a kid, we actually watched full length movies. 00:34:41.462 --> 00:34:47.672 Kids get little TikTok sections of movies with no real plot. 00:34:48.032 --> 00:34:52.172 They're just the action sequences or, or the interesting sequences. 00:34:52.802 --> 00:35:07.022 Or they get a hyper condensed plot because there are a lot of great storytellers who are telling stories in six to 60 seconds, which, which is a valuable skill as well. 00:35:07.022 --> 00:35:08.987 But it goes back to that piece of it is not. 00:35:09.887 --> 00:35:22.037 Deep enough, and it's not forcing you to connect things from an hour ago that you saw as, as this foreshadowing point to say, oh, that's why that was in the movie. 00:35:22.037 --> 00:35:28.727 And, and that is a, a very true, uh, different perspective that, that we're not responding to either. 00:35:29.237 --> 00:35:30.047 Exactly. 00:35:30.047 --> 00:35:34.517 So this is where, where the research in neuroscience is going is. 00:35:35.312 --> 00:35:43.922 Short duration sequence of videos is eroding the deeper reading comprehension. 00:35:44.192 --> 00:35:46.142 Uh, and so you can build it back. 00:35:46.142 --> 00:35:50.792 So here's the great thing about, about children that's different than adults. 00:35:50.792 --> 00:35:59.042 By age 25, our brain's mature, uh, which is roughly when the insurance rates are dropping, particularly for males. 00:35:59.492 --> 00:36:04.502 Um, when a child is first born. 00:36:05.117 --> 00:36:09.107 And neurosciences have studied the brain worldwide. 00:36:09.287 --> 00:36:19.247 When a child's first born, they have about a hundred million, uh, brain cells, uh, sounds like a lot. 00:36:19.337 --> 00:36:20.567 It's actually very small. 00:36:20.927 --> 00:36:26.297 Every 60 seconds of new life, it's 60 seconds every one minute. 00:36:26.417 --> 00:36:27.437 Just fathom this. 00:36:27.977 --> 00:36:32.807 They're generating 250 to 500 million new brain cells. 00:36:32.867 --> 00:36:39.467 That's why the head grows faster and, and, and babies, and that's why they're probably hungry and cranky all night long. 00:36:39.677 --> 00:36:42.347 Um, but they don't have many narrow connections. 00:36:42.347 --> 00:36:44.147 So the, again, this has all been studied. 00:36:44.147 --> 00:36:55.397 They scan children's brains, but by the age three, right, they're speaking, they're walking, they have 1000 trillion connections because they've looked. 00:36:55.772 --> 00:36:59.402 Uh, the brain's a neuroplasticity learning machine. 00:37:00.752 --> 00:37:07.112 You didn't have to, they just, they will learn and get smarter by aging and experience. 00:37:07.892 --> 00:37:16.232 So they have something that the human brain doesn't have the ability to form their brain, so their environment will form their brain. 00:37:16.352 --> 00:37:18.422 Teachers can shape. 00:37:18.887 --> 00:37:22.277 The development of the children's brain in our classroom. 00:37:22.277 --> 00:37:28.847 So this has been studied, this was studied around, um, phonemic awareness. 00:37:28.877 --> 00:37:37.667 Those who taught it developed the explicitly, and those who dentist goes back to the reading wars of, of yesteryear still going on. 00:37:38.692 --> 00:37:38.912 Uh. 00:37:39.797 --> 00:37:48.977 And those that taught the phonemic awareness developed and he scanned the brain before and after of these children, and this was at National Institutes of Health. 00:37:49.427 --> 00:37:52.067 Reliant did a lot of directed this research. 00:37:52.067 --> 00:37:53.927 I had an opportunity to work with him, 00:37:56.447 --> 00:38:02.207 and what was fascinating is that the teachers that taught those strategies, the phonological centers of the brain, developed. 00:38:02.837 --> 00:38:08.657 Teachers that did not teach those strategies, pH like phonological centers, the brain did not develop. 00:38:08.867 --> 00:38:12.377 What gets exercised in a growing brain gets developed. 00:38:14.327 --> 00:38:20.747 This is essential to understand because this is how you level up. 00:38:20.747 --> 00:38:27.317 So we see it on a test, but in a neuroscience scan, we're seeing it in the brain. 00:38:28.202 --> 00:38:28.562 Right. 00:38:28.562 --> 00:38:30.722 So it's, it's about brain development. 00:38:30.722 --> 00:38:33.842 So lemme go back to these babies that are, are, are born. 00:38:34.772 --> 00:38:38.342 One of the things that neuroscience likes to study is the cerebral cortex. 00:38:38.342 --> 00:38:42.692 That's the wrinkly outer layer of what we typically visualize is the brain. 00:38:43.112 --> 00:38:55.442 That's where the heavy reasoning is done, and that's the part that takes the tests, you know, so it's really, really important, particularly for the independent critical thinking questions. 00:38:57.562 --> 00:38:59.297 It is the exact same size. 00:38:59.297 --> 00:38:59.867 Scan. 00:38:59.867 --> 00:39:06.047 Children all around the world, there is no difference by race, gender, religion, culture, no difference. 00:39:07.067 --> 00:39:09.617 This is really profound 'cause it's not genetic. 00:39:09.857 --> 00:39:20.597 This is, but by school age, they scan the brains and now there's a gap in cerebral cortex development. 00:39:20.597 --> 00:39:22.187 So the neuroscientists studied it. 00:39:23.237 --> 00:39:24.587 And they studied intensely. 00:39:24.587 --> 00:39:27.857 They got it down to one factor and one factor only. 00:39:28.817 --> 00:39:29.867 Wealth of the family. 00:39:30.767 --> 00:39:31.277 That's it. 00:39:33.647 --> 00:39:36.047 So you know what, it comes back down. 00:39:36.467 --> 00:39:44.207 Background knowledge that we've been talking about, the environment that works, that brain or our nutrition and other aspects to this. 00:39:44.537 --> 00:39:45.407 But that's the big one. 00:39:45.407 --> 00:39:51.322 So when I come back to the example, I showed you teachers that require the brain to work more. 00:39:52.232 --> 00:39:57.122 Develop that brain, like productive struggle is really important. 00:39:57.122 --> 00:40:05.012 So think about this, when you go to a gym, if you lift the same weight all the time, do you get stronger? 00:40:06.062 --> 00:40:06.362 No. 00:40:07.142 --> 00:40:09.722 You know, there's these annoying people go personal trainers. 00:40:09.752 --> 00:40:13.622 They're like, okay, you, you got there now let me add five more pounds. 00:40:13.622 --> 00:40:15.122 They're like, oh, now it's hard again. 00:40:15.542 --> 00:40:18.302 But you know, in a week or two it's not hard anymore. 00:40:18.932 --> 00:40:20.162 Then they add a little bit more. 00:40:20.867 --> 00:40:25.817 Or they make you run a little bit, few more minutes, and then they teach you some technique. 00:40:26.957 --> 00:40:28.877 The brain is very similar. 00:40:28.937 --> 00:40:33.047 It needs productive struggle to develop worksheets. 00:40:33.047 --> 00:40:34.307 Do not do that. 00:40:35.807 --> 00:40:37.217 Do not do that. 00:40:38.087 --> 00:40:39.917 They have to gauge in debate. 00:40:39.917 --> 00:40:42.407 They have to be able to have complex. 00:40:42.977 --> 00:40:45.677 And deeper thinking around the text. 00:40:46.127 --> 00:40:47.597 We have to create that. 00:40:47.597 --> 00:40:58.187 So we find the students that need this development the most are often denied rigor the most, and I think it comes from a couple places. 00:40:58.187 --> 00:41:00.317 One of it is a misguided con. 00:41:00.767 --> 00:41:01.067 Go ahead. 00:41:01.112 --> 00:41:17.552 they, the, I think is close to what you're gonna go into, but it's not that they are denied rigor, it's that they are given a false sense of what rigor is and, and told that rigor is something that it's not. 00:41:17.552 --> 00:41:25.232 So if you would what you were saying, but define what that rigor really looks like because rigor is not harder. 00:41:25.232 --> 00:41:26.312 Questions more work. 00:41:27.092 --> 00:41:28.592 Rigor is something different. 00:41:28.592 --> 00:41:29.462 How would you answer that? 00:41:30.707 --> 00:41:32.567 Well, I'm gonna bring it back to productive struggle. 00:41:32.567 --> 00:41:33.707 So you, but you're correct. 00:41:33.707 --> 00:41:36.437 It's not more memorization, that's not rigor. 00:41:36.467 --> 00:41:39.647 That's just makes kids more bored and not like school. 00:41:40.517 --> 00:41:42.467 It's definitely not Stacks homework. 00:41:43.367 --> 00:41:45.347 It is the complexity of the task. 00:41:45.347 --> 00:41:49.697 It's the complexity of the thinking that the task re requires us to engage in. 00:41:49.697 --> 00:41:59.537 So that, to make that really simple, they can use Web's taxonomy, Bloom's taxonomy, Marzano's Taxonomy of Learning objectives. 00:42:00.197 --> 00:42:17.837 Uh, I, I'm a research partner with Marzano, so we, I use his taxonomy, uh, and, and what we do when first thing we walk into classrooms when we're doing a rigor walk and a rigor walk is, is really, really powerful. 00:42:17.837 --> 00:42:25.002 It's the nation's most researched based, uh, walk for measuring rigor in the classroom. 00:42:25.902 --> 00:42:26.122 Um. 00:42:27.512 --> 00:42:32.102 And you can find that if they wanna learn more about it on instructional empowerment.com. 00:42:32.462 --> 00:42:44.312 But what what's powerful about this is the first thing we do is we walk in, we wanna see what's the level of the standard, what's the level of the thinking in the standard? 00:42:44.312 --> 00:42:45.932 Do we see it in the task? 00:42:46.487 --> 00:42:49.397 Then what's most important and what's most predictive? 00:42:49.397 --> 00:42:51.527 Because we do item analysis all the time. 00:42:51.527 --> 00:42:57.317 So does this predict test scores is what's the level of thinking the students are engaged in? 00:42:59.057 --> 00:43:02.357 So what we'll find is the curriculums at a higher level. 00:43:02.357 --> 00:43:08.477 Teachers tend to lower the task below the standard, and then the students lower. 00:43:08.537 --> 00:43:10.577 It's even lower in the student work. 00:43:10.577 --> 00:43:13.967 So the curriculums are actually pretty good today. 00:43:14.582 --> 00:43:20.432 But we have this massive drop off and, and we have the drop off for a number of reasons. 00:43:20.432 --> 00:43:22.622 One of them is ruinous empathy. 00:43:22.622 --> 00:43:30.782 Ruinous empathy is misguided concept that these kids struggle so much and they're so deprived. 00:43:30.872 --> 00:43:33.817 I don't want them to engage in struggle in my classroom. 00:43:33.902 --> 00:43:35.462 So I make a happy comforting. 00:43:35.552 --> 00:43:37.622 So, you know, aspects of that are fine, but. 00:43:38.597 --> 00:43:42.857 You're not developing the brain, you're not leveling them up. 00:43:42.977 --> 00:43:45.317 They have to engage in productive struggle. 00:43:45.317 --> 00:43:59.057 Productive struggle requires you just like a personal trainer to set the task slightly above your current level of your kids, not at the level you need them to engage and reach and work harder. 00:43:59.807 --> 00:44:04.937 We're not asking 20 pounds, we're asking that five pound personal trainer that we're adding it incrementally. 00:44:05.567 --> 00:44:11.447 So rigor is somewhat relative to where your kids are, but you're moving it forward. 00:44:11.507 --> 00:44:17.897 Our goal is to get 'em into productive struggle and then give 'em a structure where they can share the background knowledge and debate. 00:44:18.797 --> 00:44:24.977 And when we do that, we're developing their agency because they have to exercise their emotions as they're doing this. 00:44:25.397 --> 00:44:29.177 And they are exercising their brain as they're doing this. 00:44:29.177 --> 00:44:34.397 So we're developing academics with, uh, agency skills. 00:44:34.397 --> 00:44:40.337 It's, it's amazing at how fast students develop it. 00:44:40.607 --> 00:44:50.147 I mean, it is blazingly fast because again, it's, if you can see it in the brain, the brain's literally developing, they're adding all these brain cells. 00:44:51.077 --> 00:44:53.057 Remember I talked about what a newborn. 00:44:53.582 --> 00:45:00.482 It's like crazy, like the amount of brain cells, but when they're our age, it's 700 or less brain cells a day. 00:45:00.482 --> 00:45:02.852 Not a minute a day, it's just replacement. 00:45:03.332 --> 00:45:06.062 But these kids are actually growing their centers of their brain. 00:45:06.062 --> 00:45:13.862 So if we give 'em the right learning environment, so let me put it this way, the brain will develop to the demand of the learning environment. 00:45:14.627 --> 00:45:15.017 Yeah. 00:45:15.452 --> 00:45:22.472 Low rigor learning environments do not benefit children, particularly children that don't get those exposures at home. 00:45:23.477 --> 00:45:34.907 yeah, so one of the things that, um, that teachers, uh, complain about when asked to do things like this is that I, I only have so much time in the day. 00:45:35.032 --> 00:45:35.452 Mm-hmm. 00:45:35.477 --> 00:45:36.852 have so much content to get through. 00:45:37.952 --> 00:45:44.312 And this takes longer because it does take longer than just saying, here's the question, here's the answer. 00:45:44.702 --> 00:45:45.662 Fill out the worksheet. 00:45:45.992 --> 00:45:47.762 It definitely takes longer so. 00:45:49.022 --> 00:46:00.152 I know like my first response is the kids learn way more than you could ever capture because they love to do it and they love to learn and everybody does, and they just hate school. 00:46:00.512 --> 00:46:05.072 But number one, uh, they learn way more than you could imagine. 00:46:05.372 --> 00:46:12.722 But why else is this worthwhile to do when, when the time investment is significantly greater? 00:46:13.757 --> 00:46:16.607 So what we, we have to step back and think about. 00:46:16.607 --> 00:46:24.377 If you look at state by state, by their standards, and this has been approximated, it takes 25 years to cover today's standards. 00:46:24.797 --> 00:46:25.547 It's not possible. 00:46:26.837 --> 00:46:32.447 So first of all, this idea we have to cover all the standards is a physically flawed. 00:46:33.602 --> 00:46:34.322 Concept. 00:46:35.402 --> 00:46:47.582 Uh, so when I work with curriculum offices, identify the focus or priority standards and the supporting standards, minimize your time on the supporting standards and really focus on where it brings it all together. 00:46:47.822 --> 00:46:49.922 That's where your deeper learning is. 00:46:50.552 --> 00:46:52.802 Uh, and you don't spend equal time. 00:46:52.892 --> 00:46:54.062 That's pacing. 00:46:54.062 --> 00:46:56.492 Guys are typically antiquated. 00:46:56.492 --> 00:46:56.552 It. 00:46:56.882 --> 00:47:05.282 Uh, and for teachers, we should empower teachers by making curricular decisions for them, not relying on the teachers to make those decisions. 00:47:05.672 --> 00:47:10.292 But if we're working with PLCs and teacher planning, that's exactly what we do. 00:47:10.862 --> 00:47:18.452 And what we will find is the test better, they will test better if they can independently think about the content. 00:47:19.532 --> 00:47:23.097 And so it's about, the neuroscience is a little wonky, but what you're. 00:47:23.702 --> 00:47:28.982 It is very hard to get memorization from short term to long term memory. 00:47:28.982 --> 00:47:35.192 You have to practice it over and over and over, and that's our, our, our, our crazy test prep right now. 00:47:35.852 --> 00:47:38.792 They just, it's all retrieval level. 00:47:38.797 --> 00:47:50.192 It, it, it, it's just grinding kids through and, and it is boring and is really boring to today's kids, particularly when they can pick up a smartphone and ask Siri. 00:47:50.927 --> 00:47:54.527 Or chat GPT and it can bring up recall so fast. 00:47:54.587 --> 00:47:57.497 You don't even need it in your brain as much as you used to it. 00:47:57.677 --> 00:48:00.347 It's an antiquated, the whole thing's antiquated. 00:48:00.737 --> 00:48:02.477 What we need is complex learning. 00:48:02.477 --> 00:48:05.717 You do need a certain amount of foundational knowledge to do that. 00:48:05.717 --> 00:48:07.037 We, we would agree with that. 00:48:07.757 --> 00:48:10.277 And you get that through reading complex text. 00:48:10.277 --> 00:48:11.927 You get that through the discussion. 00:48:11.927 --> 00:48:13.277 You get that through the inquiry. 00:48:13.277 --> 00:48:14.927 So kids wanna dig in more. 00:48:14.927 --> 00:48:17.627 If we're gonna use ai, AI should be a research tool. 00:48:17.687 --> 00:48:21.347 I'm not producing summaries of text so they don't have to read. 00:48:22.007 --> 00:48:31.187 That's the wrong and interesting research on AI with college students is the more they use it, the more it shrinks their hippocampus. 00:48:31.937 --> 00:48:42.467 Like it's actually pretty fast because if you don't use a muscle, you put a muscle in a cast for a year, you have to do physical therapy to get it back. 00:48:42.707 --> 00:48:43.667 It atrophies. 00:48:44.297 --> 00:48:45.027 It doesn't stay the same. 00:48:46.547 --> 00:48:50.717 If you outsource your critical thinking to AI all the time, 00:48:52.787 --> 00:48:56.837 you're gonna, that part will begin the atrophy of the brain. 00:48:56.837 --> 00:48:57.557 That's what we know. 00:48:57.557 --> 00:49:00.827 It'll actually trim those, those areas that aren't being used. 00:49:01.187 --> 00:49:10.787 So we want the critical thinking part, staying with the student, but you know, some of the main mundane lit reviews and all that kind of stuff. 00:49:12.182 --> 00:49:14.462 AI can absolutely help make that better. 00:49:14.462 --> 00:49:15.512 You still have to check it. 00:49:16.352 --> 00:49:18.842 Uh, but AI should not be writing the papers. 00:49:18.842 --> 00:49:20.372 We should not allow that to happen. 00:49:20.882 --> 00:49:23.822 We should make sure students are doing it. 00:49:23.882 --> 00:49:32.432 The only time I think that is beneficial is when they're critiquing and evaluating different AI engines and what they're producing, just to see the errors. 00:49:32.432 --> 00:49:35.802 I think that, but again, the human is doing the thinking here. 00:49:36.527 --> 00:49:36.857 Yep. 00:49:37.067 --> 00:49:38.987 do not wanna outsource the thinking. 00:49:38.987 --> 00:49:40.187 You outsource the thinking. 00:49:40.187 --> 00:49:44.417 You're outsourcing the brain development, and that's the anti-education. 00:49:45.017 --> 00:49:45.347 Yep. 00:49:45.467 --> 00:49:47.507 It's like outsourcing the uh. 00:49:47.942 --> 00:49:50.942 Exercise and the sports playing 00:49:51.107 --> 00:49:51.377 Yeah. 00:49:51.377 --> 00:49:56.087 If you hire somebody to go to the gym for you, what benefit did you get? 00:49:56.642 --> 00:50:00.152 yeah, you certainly didn't, but that person got double benefit. 00:50:01.067 --> 00:50:03.567 Well, AI will keep getting smarter if you know. 00:50:03.782 --> 00:50:04.112 right. 00:50:05.282 --> 00:50:08.282 If anybody wants to hire me to go to the gym for them, I'm happy to do it. 00:50:08.342 --> 00:50:15.842 Um, so, uh, the last thing I want to ask you is, uh, we've talked about a lot of stuff and had a great conversation. 00:50:15.842 --> 00:50:16.742 I've really enjoyed it. 00:50:18.047 --> 00:50:19.157 does a principal start? 00:50:19.247 --> 00:50:23.357 What should a principal do this week to be a Transformative Principal? 00:50:24.357 --> 00:50:28.737 To be a Transformative Principal, we should start looking at a couple things. 00:50:28.737 --> 00:50:31.917 And again, they can come to our, our website, we have a lot of free tools. 00:50:31.917 --> 00:50:34.047 They, they can start looking at a lot of videos. 00:50:34.767 --> 00:50:36.267 First of all, who's doing the work? 00:50:36.267 --> 00:50:39.687 When you walk in the classrooms just stop at the door. 00:50:39.747 --> 00:50:40.857 Who's working harder? 00:50:40.857 --> 00:50:44.007 The teacher or the student whose voice is dominant. 00:50:44.127 --> 00:50:48.687 The teacher of the student who's using the resources. 00:50:49.067 --> 00:50:50.327 The teacher or the student, 00:50:52.457 --> 00:50:53.387 how do you flip that? 00:50:54.947 --> 00:51:03.977 And, and, and really my encouragement is we've gotta stop teacher proofing and we gotta start investing in our teachers. 00:51:04.277 --> 00:51:06.497 Our teachers need planning skills. 00:51:06.527 --> 00:51:09.902 I find this as a, a very significant issue. 00:51:10.082 --> 00:51:14.657 We, you know, teachers pay teachers and like, I get the shortcut. 00:51:15.137 --> 00:51:17.837 It's incredibly, uh, easy. 00:51:18.662 --> 00:51:21.002 It is not rigorous and it's not helping kids. 00:51:21.932 --> 00:51:23.822 Uh, I'm making a generalization. 00:51:23.822 --> 00:51:25.352 Obviously, there'll be some stuff there. 00:51:26.102 --> 00:51:29.642 Our curriculums are, are, are, are much better than they used to. 00:51:29.822 --> 00:51:41.162 But all today's high quality instructional materials require high level discourse in the classroom to activate the learning if you don't have that discourse going on. 00:51:41.972 --> 00:51:47.492 And so the next thing you do if you have the discourse, is it just kids talking? 00:51:48.857 --> 00:51:49.907 Are they on topic? 00:51:49.907 --> 00:51:51.857 Are they taking equal terms? 00:51:51.857 --> 00:51:54.527 If they're not doing equal effort, equal terms. 00:51:54.527 --> 00:51:58.697 And we have protocols for this and that's why I don't like unstructured groups. 00:52:00.077 --> 00:52:01.127 The rich get richer. 00:52:01.187 --> 00:52:02.177 That's what's gonna happen. 00:52:02.177 --> 00:52:14.897 The more confident learners will dominate the conversation and great, they get, you know, you know, they'll, they'll get some learning game, but you'll have these, uh, real time learning gaps and you can see it by who's participating, who's not. 00:52:14.897 --> 00:52:17.477 So I wasn't a confident learner 'cause I was behind. 00:52:18.167 --> 00:52:29.297 Because of the way, way, the experience that I had in poverty had a just lack of schooling, lack of access to literature, all kinds of stuff. 00:52:29.297 --> 00:52:38.657 So I get it like you have to build that up and you have to get that by getting that equal participation, or you don't get the background knowledge share. 00:52:39.497 --> 00:52:43.037 Are they using precise vocabulary and are they. 00:52:43.427 --> 00:52:49.577 Functioning and, and if they're not constructing new learning in the discourse, they're just low level processing. 00:52:50.142 --> 00:52:50.562 Mm-hmm. 00:52:50.747 --> 00:52:55.697 teachers get so excited that the kids talk and there will be a learning gain out of that, by the way. 00:52:56.447 --> 00:53:04.037 Uh, 'cause at least they're processing content, but it's not the critical thinking that develops the brain to the high levels that breaks generational poverty. 00:53:04.127 --> 00:53:05.537 That's what we're after. 00:53:06.212 --> 00:53:14.647 And it also helps the more kids coming from greater advantage households to be able to perform better as well, helps everyone. 00:53:15.272 --> 00:53:17.907 Yeah, and it's one of those things that that lifts everybody. 00:53:18.662 --> 00:53:23.072 No matter where you start, you can improve and be better. 00:53:23.462 --> 00:53:25.622 Um, thank you for this conversation, Michael. 00:53:25.622 --> 00:53:26.432 This was awesome. 00:53:26.492 --> 00:53:29.462 Uh, once again, instructional empowerment.com. 00:53:29.642 --> 00:53:30.152 People should 00:53:30.197 --> 00:53:33.917 and, and look at our library for deeper learning articles. 00:53:33.917 --> 00:53:36.737 There's a whole series on everything I'm talking about. 00:53:36.737 --> 00:53:41.537 We're adding more on the neuroscience and everything else, but it's great resource. 00:53:41.537 --> 00:53:42.582 All articles there are. 00:53:44.282 --> 00:53:48.362 Excellent, and I'll put a link to that library in the show notes so people can go check it out. 00:53:48.422 --> 00:53:50.702 Uh, the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org. 00:53:51.062 --> 00:53:54.152 Michael, thanks so much for being part of Transformative Principal today. 00:53:54.917 --> 00:53:55.367 Thank you. 00:53:55.727 --> 00:53:57.167 I hope that you asked me back someday. 00:53:57.722 --> 00:53:58.292 Yes.