1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,550 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,550 --> 00:00:04,380 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my 3 00:00:04,380 --> 00:00:06,810 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:11,280 Will, Schroeder will, I think there's this dream scenario 5 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,370 where we build a startup and we get it cranking. 6 00:00:14,370 --> 00:00:16,980 You know, it, it achieves some level of escape velocity. 7 00:00:17,615 --> 00:00:21,575 And then we can just bring in somebody else, hire a 8 00:00:21,575 --> 00:00:24,245 killer operator and, and, and sit margaritas while 9 00:00:24,245 --> 00:00:25,025 the money multiplies. 10 00:00:25,025 --> 00:00:25,235 Right? 11 00:00:25,595 --> 00:00:29,585 So from what I hear, handing off a startup is pretty 12 00:00:29,585 --> 00:00:31,564 easy for about 48 hours. 13 00:00:31,564 --> 00:00:34,985 And then after that, entropy starts filing status reports. 14 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,025 You've, you've done this before though, man. 15 00:00:37,205 --> 00:00:42,095 So like, walk me through how well or not well did this go? 16 00:00:42,245 --> 00:00:44,165 It always breaks, like kind of for the same 17 00:00:44,165 --> 00:00:45,305 reason, but the problem is. 18 00:00:45,835 --> 00:00:48,235 It doesn't break right away, so it looks something like this. 19 00:00:48,235 --> 00:00:48,535 Uhhuh. 20 00:00:48,535 --> 00:00:49,795 Okay, I'll rewind back. 21 00:00:49,795 --> 00:00:52,195 Let's, let's go back like this is, I, I, I've tried this 22 00:00:52,195 --> 00:00:54,625 a few times, but I'm gonna cite one specific example. 23 00:00:54,955 --> 00:00:58,165 In the early, early days of startups.com, long before it was 24 00:00:58,165 --> 00:01:01,075 startups.com, this is like 2000. 25 00:01:01,434 --> 00:01:02,580 Two, 2004. 26 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:03,220 Mm-hmm. 27 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:04,899 We're going way back in the way back machine. 28 00:01:05,035 --> 00:01:05,245 Yep. 29 00:01:05,575 --> 00:01:08,755 I had started building all of these companies that were 30 00:01:08,755 --> 00:01:10,495 all like doing pretty well. 31 00:01:10,795 --> 00:01:12,775 Like, you know, one of 'em was swap lease.com and it 32 00:01:12,775 --> 00:01:14,965 was making you millions of dollars and you know, whatever. 33 00:01:14,965 --> 00:01:16,075 And so I'm building all these companies like biz 34 00:01:16,075 --> 00:01:17,875 plan.com, which is, you know, what we have today. 35 00:01:17,965 --> 00:01:18,145 Yep. 36 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:23,160 And my idea was, and it wasn't a bad idea in theory, and I 37 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,300 want everybody to hear that. 38 00:01:25,530 --> 00:01:26,610 'cause the theory is the problem. 39 00:01:27,270 --> 00:01:30,450 The idea was I'm gonna build these businesses, I'm gonna 40 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:33,420 invest my own cash and I'm gonna get 'em told they're 41 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:36,660 EBIT positive and have a substantive way to keep growing. 42 00:01:36,750 --> 00:01:37,080 Okay? 43 00:01:37,350 --> 00:01:37,500 Sure. 44 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:38,435 So swap a lease. 45 00:01:38,670 --> 00:01:40,380 And for those of you that aren't familiar, I think the 46 00:01:40,380 --> 00:01:41,160 company's still around them. 47 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,350 Nothing to do with it anymore, but a lot of you to get in 48 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:45,420 and out of car lease, it's basically, uh uh, transfer 49 00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:47,880 your lease to someone else, not literally swap cars. 50 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,990 So that got to, I'm trying to remember, this is a long time 51 00:01:50,990 --> 00:01:55,520 ago, but that got to like $3 million in revenue, let's say in 52 00:01:55,580 --> 00:01:57,320 Ryan, maybe 1,000,005 in ebit. 53 00:01:57,950 --> 00:01:58,220 Yep. 54 00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:58,760 Makes sense. 55 00:01:58,760 --> 00:01:58,940 In like 56 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:00,260 pretty short order. 57 00:02:00,890 --> 00:02:01,040 Yep. 58 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,890 And then the next business I did right thereafter, like 59 00:02:03,890 --> 00:02:07,460 a year later, had the same trajectory and I was like, 60 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:09,620 okay, well this is, this is at the beginning, right? 61 00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:09,680 Yeah. 62 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,030 You know, so taking that much now I just need 63 00:02:11,030 --> 00:02:12,725 to keep starting as many of these things as I can. 64 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:14,730 And that's where it started to fall apart. 65 00:02:14,730 --> 00:02:17,940 But the, the other part of it was, all I need to do, 66 00:02:17,940 --> 00:02:20,250 my value is I'm idea guy. 67 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:21,690 This is like the, the dumbest thing, right? 68 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:24,390 I'm Idea Guy and I just go in, I get it started, I bring the 69 00:02:24,390 --> 00:02:26,160 idea together and I let it run. 70 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,040 I go start the next one and everyone will just keep. 71 00:02:29,790 --> 00:02:30,930 Piling cash on me. 72 00:02:31,050 --> 00:02:33,600 Everybody's idea of the startup dream right there. 73 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:33,990 Right. 74 00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:35,340 You, you just nailed it, right? 75 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:35,430 Yeah. 76 00:02:35,430 --> 00:02:37,595 Would just, would the idea guy just why would 77 00:02:37,595 --> 00:02:39,720 work cocktail napkins hand 'em off and then somebody 78 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:40,650 else turns 'em into cash. 79 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:41,250 Perfect. 80 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:43,830 And, and, and I thought it was an awesome situation for 81 00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:46,410 someone else too, because someone else has already 82 00:02:46,410 --> 00:02:47,370 figured this thing out. 83 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:49,470 All they have to do is not fuck it up. 84 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:50,340 Yep. 85 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:51,420 Like that is your mandate. 86 00:02:51,630 --> 00:02:52,635 Just don't screw this up. 87 00:02:52,635 --> 00:02:52,755 Right. 88 00:02:52,755 --> 00:02:53,595 Everything's going fine. 89 00:02:53,595 --> 00:02:53,675 Right. 90 00:02:53,675 --> 00:02:55,680 Don't screw this up, but, but easier said than done. 91 00:02:56,010 --> 00:02:59,490 As countless startups have proven, the second part was, 92 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:01,290 okay, this here, here's my plan. 93 00:03:01,650 --> 00:03:03,870 I'm gonna keep starting another one of these companies 94 00:03:03,870 --> 00:03:05,220 like every 18 months. 95 00:03:05,829 --> 00:03:08,109 And the reason it's gonna work so well is I'm gonna 96 00:03:08,109 --> 00:03:12,459 put really ambitious founder style managers, CEOs in 97 00:03:12,459 --> 00:03:13,299 place of each of them. 98 00:03:13,540 --> 00:03:17,049 So each of them will have their own like quarterback superstar. 99 00:03:17,350 --> 00:03:17,620 Right. 100 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:17,920 Right. 101 00:03:18,489 --> 00:03:20,799 I mean, this sounded like a really good plan. 102 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:24,345 When I talk to business founders, you know, like startup 103 00:03:24,345 --> 00:03:26,535 founders and whatever, um, business owners, I was gonna 104 00:03:26,535 --> 00:03:29,145 say, a lot of them were like, look, I wanna get to the point 105 00:03:29,145 --> 00:03:31,275 where the business is working for me and I can go, you know, 106 00:03:31,455 --> 00:03:33,645 be the equivalent of sit on the beach and sit margaritas and 107 00:03:33,645 --> 00:03:34,365 have it just send you money. 108 00:03:34,365 --> 00:03:34,425 Yeah. 109 00:03:34,755 --> 00:03:38,145 The chief margarita officer, I never heard that. 110 00:03:38,145 --> 00:03:38,625 I love that. 111 00:03:39,045 --> 00:03:41,655 And I tell 'em every time I said, it's an awesome dream. 112 00:03:41,925 --> 00:03:44,000 And like every dream you wake up at some point. 113 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:47,580 Yeah, it's what a nightmare you have on your hands. 114 00:03:47,970 --> 00:03:49,920 So what I thought we could talk about in this, this 115 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,430 episode is like really, really dig into why it doesn't 116 00:03:53,430 --> 00:03:55,440 work, why it sounds awesome. 117 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,000 'cause everybody has the same idea. 118 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,740 I'm just gonna hire the super capable person and they're 119 00:03:58,740 --> 00:04:00,970 gonna run things even better than I did and blah, blah blah. 120 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:01,140 Right? 121 00:04:01,140 --> 00:04:03,360 Like, and it like kind of never works. 122 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,100 I'm sure there's some situations, there's 123 00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:07,560 someone that's gonna email us, make Oh, not true. 124 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:08,460 I made it work. 125 00:04:08,460 --> 00:04:08,520 Yeah. 126 00:04:08,550 --> 00:04:09,275 And, and I always say like. 127 00:04:09,620 --> 00:04:12,080 I get that someone did something differently. 128 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,730 Like when we say you can't raise capital in 129 00:04:13,850 --> 00:04:16,160 30 days, so is not true. 130 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:16,940 I made it work. 131 00:04:16,970 --> 00:04:17,600 Yeah, someone did. 132 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,260 Yeah, dude, I get it. 133 00:04:18,380 --> 00:04:19,910 Like you made it work, but 134 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,130 we're talking to the 99.9995% of people, not you, sir. 135 00:04:25,190 --> 00:04:26,720 That, that's like Brad Pitt emailing me. 136 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,490 Like, what do you mean you can't just go to LA and become 137 00:04:28,490 --> 00:04:30,170 a, a international uh, actor? 138 00:04:30,260 --> 00:04:30,590 I did. 139 00:04:30,590 --> 00:04:31,430 It worked for me. 140 00:04:31,430 --> 00:04:32,360 Yeah, red Pitt, you did it. 141 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,290 That's the point nobody else did anyway, so I thought 142 00:04:36,290 --> 00:04:37,370 today would be kind of fun. 143 00:04:37,430 --> 00:04:40,250 To talk about, like, like really kinda lay out why we 144 00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:42,470 all think this dream can exist. 145 00:04:42,470 --> 00:04:43,850 Like kind of what it looks like. 146 00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:46,190 Probably talk about why it won't work, right? 147 00:04:46,190 --> 00:04:47,960 Like, you know, kinda where it breaks, but, but more 148 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,450 specific because I, I like to be tactical in how we 149 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:51,470 give, you know, this advice. 150 00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:53,600 I would say let's, let's finish it off with 151 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:55,340 what we can hand off. 152 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:57,410 Like, you know, what, what you actually can hand off and feel 153 00:04:57,410 --> 00:05:01,070 pretty good about it and what you can't, like, you could try 154 00:05:01,550 --> 00:05:02,840 guarantee, it's gonna blow up. 155 00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:03,620 Ryan. 156 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:05,120 If, if we were to think about. 157 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,140 Why this doesn't work? 158 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:08,970 Like why wouldn't this work? 159 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:09,270 Right. 160 00:05:09,630 --> 00:05:12,630 I would say the first thing I would say is we 161 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:15,690 fail to estimate entropy. 162 00:05:16,950 --> 00:05:17,220 Yeah. 163 00:05:17,225 --> 00:05:20,430 This, this, this concept that that's, everything's okay now. 164 00:05:21,585 --> 00:05:22,665 But chaos ensues. 165 00:05:22,665 --> 00:05:23,115 You know what I mean? 166 00:05:23,355 --> 00:05:24,675 I, I think that's a big part of it. 167 00:05:24,675 --> 00:05:27,645 I think that there are so many little things that we're 168 00:05:27,645 --> 00:05:31,455 doing as a founder that don't really like, they're, they're 169 00:05:31,455 --> 00:05:32,595 not in the job description. 170 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:32,880 Right? 171 00:05:32,885 --> 00:05:33,225 Right. 172 00:05:33,435 --> 00:05:33,855 They're, they're not. 173 00:05:33,855 --> 00:05:35,295 Even if somebody asks you, what did you do today? 174 00:05:35,295 --> 00:05:36,855 You wouldn't even remember having done them. 175 00:05:37,275 --> 00:05:38,205 That's a great way to put it. 176 00:05:38,205 --> 00:05:39,495 I didn't even think about that. 177 00:05:39,915 --> 00:05:41,805 There are hundreds of these things, right? 178 00:05:41,805 --> 00:05:43,935 There are just hundreds of these things that we just 179 00:05:43,935 --> 00:05:46,365 do nearly out of instinct. 180 00:05:46,365 --> 00:05:48,195 Having run that particular business, they just 181 00:05:48,195 --> 00:05:49,185 become muscle men, right? 182 00:05:49,185 --> 00:05:50,715 It's just, it just, right. 183 00:05:50,805 --> 00:05:51,735 It just happens. 184 00:05:52,395 --> 00:05:55,575 And so I think that the, the laundry list or laundry 185 00:05:55,575 --> 00:05:57,795 list of laundry lists that are those things. 186 00:05:58,565 --> 00:06:01,715 A big part of where the, the, the handoff 187 00:06:02,164 --> 00:06:03,395 starts to break down. 188 00:06:03,784 --> 00:06:03,935 Right. 189 00:06:03,935 --> 00:06:05,135 It starts to fail again. 190 00:06:05,135 --> 00:06:06,784 Not for like one big reason. 191 00:06:06,784 --> 00:06:11,494 It's like, oh, we hired someone and they only speak Mandarin. 192 00:06:11,494 --> 00:06:12,484 Gosh, silly us. 193 00:06:12,484 --> 00:06:13,895 The team only speaks English. 194 00:06:14,104 --> 00:06:16,114 This isn't working for one big reason. 195 00:06:16,114 --> 00:06:16,265 Right. 196 00:06:16,265 --> 00:06:17,284 No, it's not that it's like. 197 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:20,280 Thousands and thousands of little things that just go 198 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:23,130 off the rails, one after another and not even off 199 00:06:23,130 --> 00:06:25,620 the rails to the point where like, you can even notice it. 200 00:06:25,679 --> 00:06:25,859 Right. 201 00:06:25,859 --> 00:06:27,419 It's, it's against a death by a thousand cuts. 202 00:06:27,419 --> 00:06:27,945 That's the interesting part, 203 00:06:27,945 --> 00:06:28,104 right? 204 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:28,380 Yep. 205 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,200 Um, and it happens over such a long period of time. 206 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:31,530 Yep. 207 00:06:31,530 --> 00:06:34,500 And so imperceptibly, but it happens at a moment where 208 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:36,900 you're also not paying attention to what's happening anymore. 209 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:37,560 Correct. 210 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,479 Which, which is in, you said it a moment ago, I thought 211 00:06:39,479 --> 00:06:40,739 that was really interesting. 212 00:06:41,159 --> 00:06:43,200 A lot of things you don't even realize you're doing. 213 00:06:43,965 --> 00:06:44,145 Right. 214 00:06:44,445 --> 00:06:47,325 Like there's probably 20 things you and I will, will do this 215 00:06:47,325 --> 00:06:51,344 week@startups.com that we don't even realize that we're doing. 216 00:06:51,645 --> 00:06:53,804 We just had a, a customer issue bubble up a few minutes 217 00:06:53,804 --> 00:06:54,914 ago before we got a yes. 218 00:06:55,094 --> 00:06:55,664 Got this recording. 219 00:06:55,905 --> 00:06:57,854 And you and I both know instinctively 220 00:06:57,854 --> 00:06:58,664 what to do about it. 221 00:06:59,145 --> 00:06:59,294 Yep. 222 00:06:59,294 --> 00:06:59,385 Right. 223 00:06:59,385 --> 00:07:00,585 Like we didn't even realize to discuss it. 224 00:07:00,585 --> 00:07:03,914 We both, we, we know exactly, but new person coming in that 225 00:07:03,914 --> 00:07:06,614 would otherwise do what we do has no history like we do. 226 00:07:07,155 --> 00:07:07,485 Right. 227 00:07:07,515 --> 00:07:10,035 We have the benefit of over a decade of dealing with this. 228 00:07:10,035 --> 00:07:10,125 Yes. 229 00:07:10,455 --> 00:07:12,435 Like we know all the outcomes. 230 00:07:12,435 --> 00:07:14,535 Like there, there's nothing new to be discovered here. 231 00:07:14,865 --> 00:07:17,085 New person, even if they're experienced, doesn't 232 00:07:17,085 --> 00:07:17,865 have our experience. 233 00:07:18,285 --> 00:07:19,315 Doesn't have our experience. 234 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:22,005 And, and I think part of it's like, it doesn't even get 235 00:07:22,005 --> 00:07:23,835 documented or handed off. 236 00:07:24,495 --> 00:07:27,285 The first time they see that is the first time they see that. 237 00:07:27,345 --> 00:07:27,645 Right. 238 00:07:27,645 --> 00:07:29,445 So it just, it just pops outta nowhere, 239 00:07:29,745 --> 00:07:30,795 catches 'em by surprise. 240 00:07:30,795 --> 00:07:32,625 And they go like, well, this wasn't in the job description. 241 00:07:32,625 --> 00:07:34,395 This wasn't when, like the, the, the stuff that you. 242 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,799 Talk me through, this isn't what you, you told me I was 243 00:07:36,799 --> 00:07:37,460 gonna need to have to do. 244 00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:40,099 And I think that's just because again, we are so 245 00:07:40,099 --> 00:07:41,840 used to doing this stuff, we just forget about it. 246 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:42,049 Right. 247 00:07:42,049 --> 00:07:43,789 It doesn't go in the brochure, so to speak. 248 00:07:43,940 --> 00:07:46,039 So let me, let me set up my situation. 249 00:07:46,070 --> 00:07:47,810 'cause I said I, I've been through this a couple of times. 250 00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:47,960 Yep. 251 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:50,390 The first time was with the agency, and I've talked about 252 00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:51,950 this in previous episodes where I tried to like. 253 00:07:52,335 --> 00:07:55,245 Fire myself at least three times and it never took, yep. 254 00:07:55,245 --> 00:07:56,355 I kept getting dragged back. 255 00:07:56,745 --> 00:07:58,005 But I wanna talk about time after that. 256 00:07:58,005 --> 00:08:00,075 And it's kind of what I set up a moment ago where I was 257 00:08:00,075 --> 00:08:02,565 talking a little bit more about, uh, having, wanting to run 258 00:08:02,565 --> 00:08:03,615 all these different companies. 259 00:08:04,065 --> 00:08:06,615 And so we get a company that essentially became bizplan, 260 00:08:06,615 --> 00:08:09,855 et cetera, and we, we get that up and running and that's, 261 00:08:10,155 --> 00:08:12,165 that's doing, again, I'm trying to remember, this is like 262 00:08:12,165 --> 00:08:15,045 20 years ago, but let's say it's doing somewhere between. 263 00:08:15,585 --> 00:08:18,825 Two and a half to $3 million on about a million to 264 00:08:18,825 --> 00:08:20,175 1,000,005 in net income. 265 00:08:20,445 --> 00:08:20,625 Okay? 266 00:08:20,625 --> 00:08:20,715 Yep. 267 00:08:21,195 --> 00:08:23,895 So, so again, let's, let's just round it and say 3 million 268 00:08:24,075 --> 00:08:26,205 in gross, 1,000,005 in net. 269 00:08:26,415 --> 00:08:26,775 Okay. 270 00:08:27,105 --> 00:08:29,745 And we got to that point, I wanna say in less than 271 00:08:29,745 --> 00:08:34,815 24 months, which for a self-funded startup is awesome. 272 00:08:35,475 --> 00:08:36,165 Is awesome. 273 00:08:36,435 --> 00:08:36,495 Yeah. 274 00:08:36,495 --> 00:08:37,275 And that's real money. 275 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:38,865 I, I don't care who you are and how big time 276 00:08:38,865 --> 00:08:39,645 you want to get with it. 277 00:08:39,885 --> 00:08:42,405 Million five net to the founder is a lot of frigging money. 278 00:08:42,405 --> 00:08:42,915 Yeah, right. 279 00:08:42,915 --> 00:08:43,155 It's good 280 00:08:43,155 --> 00:08:43,365 money. 281 00:08:43,515 --> 00:08:45,945 So my thought is, you know, what's cooler than 1,000,005, 282 00:08:46,305 --> 00:08:48,555 five businesses that are throwing off 1,000,005? 283 00:08:48,615 --> 00:08:48,765 Yeah. 284 00:08:49,035 --> 00:08:49,365 Right? 285 00:08:49,365 --> 00:08:51,585 And, and so my journey to the bottom of the ocean began, 286 00:08:51,975 --> 00:08:54,315 it's, so here's what happened. 287 00:08:54,585 --> 00:08:56,715 I, I just wanna lay this out because I, I want folks 288 00:08:56,715 --> 00:08:58,665 to hear this isn't theory. 289 00:08:58,665 --> 00:09:00,015 This is me saying, here's what happened. 290 00:09:00,015 --> 00:09:02,205 And I've watched this happen so many other times. 291 00:09:02,385 --> 00:09:03,110 Here's my thought process. 292 00:09:04,215 --> 00:09:06,555 My thought process was this isn't that hard. 293 00:09:06,915 --> 00:09:07,334 Okay. 294 00:09:07,425 --> 00:09:09,314 We have a business that is very straightforward. 295 00:09:09,314 --> 00:09:11,235 It's basically a SaaS model, uh, company. 296 00:09:11,595 --> 00:09:13,245 There's no service layer whatsoever. 297 00:09:13,365 --> 00:09:14,834 We don't even know who our customers are. 298 00:09:14,895 --> 00:09:16,665 I mean, like, other than going into analytics or 299 00:09:16,665 --> 00:09:18,465 looking at their account, we'll never meet them. 300 00:09:18,584 --> 00:09:18,765 Okay? 301 00:09:18,765 --> 00:09:19,515 Like totally blinded. 302 00:09:19,875 --> 00:09:22,095 All you have to do this is back in the day, you can appreciate 303 00:09:22,125 --> 00:09:23,655 this as the c uh, CMO. 304 00:09:24,135 --> 00:09:25,665 All you had to do is feed the AdWords engine. 305 00:09:25,995 --> 00:09:29,145 And if you fed the AdWords engine in 2004, uh, it 306 00:09:29,145 --> 00:09:30,015 would spit back money. 307 00:09:30,195 --> 00:09:30,465 Right? 308 00:09:30,465 --> 00:09:30,940 It would, I mean, like 309 00:09:30,940 --> 00:09:32,355 it would just puke money all over you. 310 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:33,045 It, it 311 00:09:33,045 --> 00:09:34,095 was, it was a beautiful thing. 312 00:09:34,395 --> 00:09:36,285 I was also new like what is Yes. 313 00:09:36,285 --> 00:09:37,875 The dawn of pay per click, right? 314 00:09:37,875 --> 00:09:38,355 The dawn 315 00:09:38,355 --> 00:09:39,045 of pay per click. 316 00:09:39,045 --> 00:09:39,345 Yeah. 317 00:09:39,555 --> 00:09:40,095 I forget about that. 318 00:09:40,095 --> 00:09:40,425 Incredible. 319 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,140 So, so I go out. 320 00:09:43,905 --> 00:09:47,505 I hire a very good CEO, okay? 321 00:09:47,625 --> 00:09:47,715 Mm-hmm. 322 00:09:47,715 --> 00:09:49,485 It's a guy, uh, both of you know, we played hockey 323 00:09:49,635 --> 00:09:51,885 at his house and, uh, he's just a great guy. 324 00:09:51,885 --> 00:09:54,465 He's a CEO of, he's been CEO of multiple, uh, internet 325 00:09:54,465 --> 00:09:57,465 companies, and he's, he's a dear old friend and he is awesome. 326 00:09:57,495 --> 00:09:59,925 So I, I wanna start by saying he'll probably 327 00:09:59,925 --> 00:10:01,665 hear this episode, or I'm gonna mention it to him. 328 00:10:02,265 --> 00:10:05,325 The point of this isn't that he did something wrong. 329 00:10:05,625 --> 00:10:07,665 The point is he was really good. 330 00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:09,760 And it didn't work, right? 331 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:10,175 Yeah, it didn't work. 332 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,790 And so I'm saying this wasn't, this isn't a, I made a bad hire, 333 00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:14,140 it wasn't a selection issue. 334 00:10:14,145 --> 00:10:14,530 Yeah, yeah. 335 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:15,430 No, that's my point. 336 00:10:15,430 --> 00:10:16,510 That's what makes it worse, right? 337 00:10:16,510 --> 00:10:16,630 Yep. 338 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,160 So here's what happens. 339 00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:21,040 This is when I was leaving Columbus Ryan and, and I'm 340 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,560 gonna go to Los Angeles, started another company. 341 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:24,640 It was afford it, right? 342 00:10:25,090 --> 00:10:27,490 And, uh, I'm like, listen, and I just started a company 343 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:30,535 before that got cast, which is what brought me to, um, LA. 344 00:10:31,025 --> 00:10:33,905 So I get there and I'm like, and I, and I, I tell the c, the new 345 00:10:33,905 --> 00:10:36,905 CEOI said, Hey man, you know, just keep doing your thing. 346 00:10:36,905 --> 00:10:39,605 You've got, you know, full, uh, control of this thing. 347 00:10:39,605 --> 00:10:41,555 I'm gonna be as hands off as possible. 348 00:10:41,675 --> 00:10:43,385 And Ryan, I was beyond hands off. 349 00:10:43,415 --> 00:10:46,145 Like I, I was like, didn't even know what was going on. 350 00:10:46,415 --> 00:10:46,685 Right. 351 00:10:46,775 --> 00:10:47,135 Yeah. 352 00:10:47,195 --> 00:10:48,785 I think that's the, that's a challenge, man. 353 00:10:48,785 --> 00:10:51,005 It's a handoff, not a hands off. 354 00:10:51,185 --> 00:10:51,455 Right. 355 00:10:51,515 --> 00:10:54,725 I think there's a very important put distinction there, man. 356 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:55,295 Yeah, yeah. 357 00:10:55,295 --> 00:10:57,485 Because like, you can hand it off. 358 00:10:57,745 --> 00:11:00,775 Um, but I think the minute you go truly hands off, 359 00:11:01,165 --> 00:11:02,185 you're gonna run into trouble. 360 00:11:02,185 --> 00:11:02,485 Right. 361 00:11:02,485 --> 00:11:05,695 Because it's, look, and it's, it's the difference 362 00:11:05,695 --> 00:11:08,995 between founder supervision and supervision, as you said. 363 00:11:09,719 --> 00:11:10,800 This guy's talented. 364 00:11:10,829 --> 00:11:12,750 He's done this multiple times. 365 00:11:12,750 --> 00:11:13,229 He's done it. 366 00:11:13,229 --> 00:11:14,189 He, he had done it before. 367 00:11:14,189 --> 00:11:15,180 He's done it since. 368 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:16,469 He just didn't do it this time. 369 00:11:16,469 --> 00:11:16,979 Why? 370 00:11:17,310 --> 00:11:18,569 Because it's not the same thing. 371 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:18,930 Right? 372 00:11:18,930 --> 00:11:21,930 Founder supervision is different than just supervision. 373 00:11:21,959 --> 00:11:25,349 And I think that, and to your point before it happens over 374 00:11:25,349 --> 00:11:29,310 that period of time, and it's not like this massive implosion. 375 00:11:30,089 --> 00:11:31,890 It's an erosion, right? 376 00:11:31,890 --> 00:11:35,370 And, and little misses start to compound when 377 00:11:35,370 --> 00:11:37,140 you're truly hands off. 378 00:11:37,469 --> 00:11:37,740 Right? 379 00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:39,990 And I think a, a big part of that is, it's funny 'cause when 380 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:42,180 we go back and look at it, and I'm sure you can do this now. 381 00:11:42,719 --> 00:11:43,980 You see those things. 382 00:11:43,980 --> 00:11:44,670 You can see those things. 383 00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:46,920 You go, oh well yeah, all the warning signs were there. 384 00:11:47,954 --> 00:11:48,735 But I wasn't. 385 00:11:49,694 --> 00:11:52,035 And, and the person that took the helm didn't 386 00:11:52,035 --> 00:11:52,935 know the warning signs. 387 00:11:52,935 --> 00:11:53,355 Right. 388 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:54,975 They, they hadn't seen the canary die in the 389 00:11:54,975 --> 00:11:55,845 coal mine, so, right. 390 00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:57,105 They had no idea what this stuff meant. 391 00:11:57,615 --> 00:12:00,975 And I think that's really where this, this begins to go wrong 392 00:12:01,545 --> 00:12:04,755 and why it's so funnily and, uh, kind of obviously avoidable. 393 00:12:05,074 --> 00:12:07,055 Win the founders in the seat like these, the, the 394 00:12:07,055 --> 00:12:10,474 same erosion that happens to someone else does not 395 00:12:10,474 --> 00:12:11,104 happen to the founder. 396 00:12:11,104 --> 00:12:13,385 Now, this isn't to say that founders can't fuck up startups. 397 00:12:13,385 --> 00:12:14,285 We do it all the time. 398 00:12:14,285 --> 00:12:14,765 We're good at it. 399 00:12:15,064 --> 00:12:15,275 Right? 400 00:12:15,545 --> 00:12:17,074 But we do it differently. 401 00:12:17,224 --> 00:12:18,635 Let me walk through kind of what happens. 402 00:12:18,635 --> 00:12:18,724 Sure. 403 00:12:18,935 --> 00:12:20,314 So, lots of fanfare. 404 00:12:20,314 --> 00:12:22,175 We bring in new person, which always happens. 405 00:12:22,175 --> 00:12:22,354 Yep. 406 00:12:22,354 --> 00:12:23,765 You know, you want, you know, hype that person up. 407 00:12:23,765 --> 00:12:25,444 Talk about what, what a great handoff is. 408 00:12:25,685 --> 00:12:27,935 They wanna say, you know, how you've done this amazing 409 00:12:27,935 --> 00:12:29,045 job of leading the company. 410 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:31,535 It's, it's almost like this carbon copy, uh, template 411 00:12:31,535 --> 00:12:31,930 that everybody uses. 412 00:12:33,075 --> 00:12:35,625 So I'm like, oh man, I'm free to go do other stuff. 413 00:12:35,655 --> 00:12:36,885 And I, I was already committed to all these 414 00:12:36,885 --> 00:12:37,845 other companies anyway. 415 00:12:38,205 --> 00:12:39,885 And so here's what happens. 416 00:12:40,215 --> 00:12:42,285 I move, so I'm across the country, whereas before 417 00:12:42,285 --> 00:12:42,830 I was there every day. 418 00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:43,920 Okay. 419 00:12:44,339 --> 00:12:47,010 But now I move from, from Columbus, Ohio to Los Angeles. 420 00:12:47,310 --> 00:12:48,270 Now I'm not around anymore. 421 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:50,069 I'm, I'm like physically just not around. 422 00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:51,900 Whereas before we were all in the same office 423 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:54,990 and little things happen. 424 00:12:55,349 --> 00:12:55,770 Okay? 425 00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:59,010 Now I'm not being specific to, to this company. 426 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:00,900 I just want to, uh, generalize a little bit. 427 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:02,219 Little things happen. 428 00:13:02,670 --> 00:13:05,250 Example, customer has a blowup and it's just not handled 429 00:13:05,250 --> 00:13:06,510 in quite the same way, okay? 430 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:07,560 Right by itself. 431 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:09,390 Not, not the end of the world. 432 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:09,720 Okay. 433 00:13:10,079 --> 00:13:11,670 A not great hire. 434 00:13:11,939 --> 00:13:12,360 Okay. 435 00:13:12,810 --> 00:13:14,910 So it's, it's, you know, you know, um, you know, what's 436 00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:15,780 the issue with hiring? 437 00:13:16,079 --> 00:13:18,810 It's a's hire A's, but B's hire C's and C's, higher 438 00:13:18,810 --> 00:13:19,770 D's kind of thing, right? 439 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:22,079 Like, if, if, if you don't get good people, well. 440 00:13:22,694 --> 00:13:26,115 A person gets hired, that's like a C. Okay. 441 00:13:26,715 --> 00:13:29,715 And then all of a sudden that sets the bar for other people 442 00:13:29,715 --> 00:13:33,615 hiring that are C because they don't have that same intensity. 443 00:13:33,765 --> 00:13:36,255 Or maybe in some cases you, I'm not saying it here, but like 444 00:13:36,345 --> 00:13:39,704 charisma to be able to pull in the, that A level talent and 445 00:13:39,704 --> 00:13:43,064 all of a sudden talent starts to degrade, but it happens 446 00:13:43,064 --> 00:13:44,685 over a slow period of time. 447 00:13:45,345 --> 00:13:45,675 Right. 448 00:13:46,095 --> 00:13:46,935 The other is. 449 00:13:47,310 --> 00:13:50,340 Just, you know, um, that urgency or freakishness, and 450 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:52,170 we'll talk more about this as, as we get into this, 451 00:13:52,350 --> 00:13:53,430 just isn't quite there. 452 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:53,520 Sure. 453 00:13:53,850 --> 00:13:58,320 And, and overall, I think the best analogy I can use is 454 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,230 Ryan, given that we're both parents, it's the equivalent 455 00:14:01,230 --> 00:14:05,040 of if we left our kids alone, fend for themselves. 456 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:05,520 Right. 457 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:07,320 Fridge is stocked with food. 458 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:07,560 Right. 459 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,850 Lately everything is fine. 460 00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:09,120 Okay. 461 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:13,350 For some period of time, nothing would go wrong. 462 00:14:13,710 --> 00:14:13,890 Right? 463 00:14:13,890 --> 00:14:14,700 Nothing would go wrong. 464 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:15,210 Absolutely fine. 465 00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:16,770 And we were like, what have we been stressing 466 00:14:16,770 --> 00:14:17,850 about this entire time? 467 00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:22,200 But then someone's gonna spill a can of soda, someone's gonna 468 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,810 back up a toilet, someone's gonna not mow the lawn. 469 00:14:24,810 --> 00:14:24,960 Right? 470 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,730 Just stuff we would've paid attention to. 471 00:14:27,090 --> 00:14:27,540 Okay? 472 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:34,230 And as every moment of entropy expands as problems, beget 473 00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:39,240 problems, we come back to a house that is trashed, trashed. 474 00:14:40,035 --> 00:14:42,045 We're like, it was going fine. 475 00:14:42,045 --> 00:14:43,035 What the hell happened? 476 00:14:43,365 --> 00:14:46,305 Were there any signs, like were there any specific 477 00:14:46,305 --> 00:14:51,585 spilled soda moments that you saw at the time but ignored? 478 00:14:51,585 --> 00:14:52,815 Because I wanted, I wanted like more of an 479 00:14:52,815 --> 00:14:53,535 emotional reaction here. 480 00:14:53,535 --> 00:14:57,105 It was like, yeah, I saw this thing happen, but I was so 481 00:14:57,105 --> 00:15:00,135 happy to not have to deal with it, or I was so glad 482 00:15:00,135 --> 00:15:02,505 that it was something else, or like, or I just felt like 483 00:15:02,505 --> 00:15:03,525 it wasn't that big of a deal. 484 00:15:03,525 --> 00:15:06,015 Were there any of those moments that, like you saw 485 00:15:06,015 --> 00:15:08,655 that then, like in hindsight was like, yeah, that was. 486 00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:10,920 Probably cost me a fortune 487 00:15:11,250 --> 00:15:12,750 while I was hands off. 488 00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:16,380 Uh, in most regards, I was still the financial person. 489 00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:19,860 I was still the CFO Uhhuh, so I'm watching our numbers 490 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,710 and they in shorter, they stopped growing, but they 491 00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:23,850 start dropping a little bit. 492 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:24,540 Okay. 493 00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:26,460 Then I'm watching our customer complaints. 494 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:27,600 That that was it. 495 00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:30,270 I'm watching our customer com Customer complaints 496 00:15:30,270 --> 00:15:33,810 grow because our product was starting to suck, right? 497 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,390 But our team was just milking what it was. 498 00:15:36,990 --> 00:15:39,090 Instead of improving the product, they just like. 499 00:15:40,110 --> 00:15:42,240 How we dealt with complaints, right? 500 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:42,360 Yep. 501 00:15:42,420 --> 00:15:43,890 Which is not the same thing. 502 00:15:44,730 --> 00:15:46,740 And I was like, ah, damn dude. 503 00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:48,390 Well if you just deal with the complaints, I'm sure 504 00:15:48,390 --> 00:15:49,800 like it'll fix itself. 505 00:15:50,250 --> 00:15:53,939 But here's the thing, Ryan, no one was, was sitting down 506 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:57,630 saying, we need to restart this whole thing and, you know, 507 00:15:57,630 --> 00:16:00,270 prevent improve the products so that problems are happening. 508 00:16:00,270 --> 00:16:00,360 Mm-hmm. 509 00:16:00,605 --> 00:16:00,735 Yeah. 510 00:16:00,740 --> 00:16:00,870 Yeah. 511 00:16:00,870 --> 00:16:02,280 Everyone was like, oh, the problem is 512 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,120 that there's problems. 513 00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:03,735 Do you see what I'm saying? 514 00:16:03,735 --> 00:16:04,015 We'll 515 00:16:04,015 --> 00:16:06,089 just get, we'll just get really good at tackling 516 00:16:06,089 --> 00:16:08,910 people who have problems instead of tackling problems. 517 00:16:09,089 --> 00:16:09,600 We need more. 518 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:11,490 Customer support, not more product innovation. 519 00:16:11,495 --> 00:16:11,625 Yeah. 520 00:16:11,625 --> 00:16:11,944 Right. 521 00:16:11,944 --> 00:16:12,584 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 522 00:16:12,589 --> 00:16:16,470 And, and that's the kind of thing where little by 523 00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:18,449 little, with every day that goes by, that you 524 00:16:18,449 --> 00:16:19,650 don't improve the product. 525 00:16:20,339 --> 00:16:22,500 You double down on the problems, right? 526 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:23,579 Yep, a hundred percent. 527 00:16:23,579 --> 00:16:26,550 And if your mandate, let's say, as the CE, who's been 528 00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:29,850 handed the keys to this thing is just keeps sending checks. 529 00:16:30,089 --> 00:16:30,930 Think about this, man. 530 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:34,829 You can keep sending checks for quite a long time for 531 00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:37,050 something that's fundamentally falling the fuck apart. 532 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,270 That's where I'm so distracted. 533 00:16:39,270 --> 00:16:40,470 I'm like, are the checks coming? 534 00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:41,460 Yes, I'm good. 535 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:42,300 Move forward. 536 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:43,110 Okay. 537 00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:45,660 But I'm not around anymore to really pay attention 538 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:47,010 to what's happening. 539 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:49,530 So, so was it the case, like when you saw the numbers start 540 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:52,410 to drop and the complaints rise, uh, did you ever consider 541 00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:54,060 stepping back in at that point? 542 00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:57,570 Or did you just hope the team would course correct? 543 00:16:57,570 --> 00:17:00,000 Or was it even more like, just sort of head in sand? 544 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:00,870 Here's the problem. 545 00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:02,130 It happens so slowly. 546 00:17:03,224 --> 00:17:05,175 That I, there was nothing to react to. 547 00:17:05,835 --> 00:17:06,075 Right. 548 00:17:06,105 --> 00:17:06,135 Uhhuh. 549 00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:08,565 Imagine this, imagine this, uh, imagine you're doing say 550 00:17:08,565 --> 00:17:12,464 $200,000 a month in revenue and that 200,000 goes to 198. 551 00:17:12,825 --> 00:17:12,974 Yeah. 552 00:17:13,004 --> 00:17:16,034 Not really like, you know, burn the house down. 553 00:17:16,034 --> 00:17:16,095 No. 554 00:17:16,095 --> 00:17:16,335 Yeah. 555 00:17:16,335 --> 00:17:17,895 We not, I'm not, nobody's ringing a bell 556 00:17:17,895 --> 00:17:18,704 and screaming about it. 557 00:17:18,704 --> 00:17:18,855 Yeah. 558 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:19,560 Exactly. 559 00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:21,840 And, but the next month it goes down to 1 97. 560 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,730 And again, it's still a big number and your net 561 00:17:23,730 --> 00:17:25,140 income number is still huge. 562 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:27,990 And like, so like overall you're like, huh, you know, 563 00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:29,730 like good month, bad month, you know, maybe it was a bad 564 00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:31,020 quarter, you know, whatever. 565 00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:32,790 You will change our Google marketing, you know, whatever. 566 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:34,170 But here's what happens. 567 00:17:34,260 --> 00:17:38,040 And as A-C-A-C-F-O for a long time, I can appreciate this. 568 00:17:38,790 --> 00:17:41,970 You lose the memory of what your baseline was. 569 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,030 So for example, let's say you started at 200 KA month 570 00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:47,400 in MRRA year from now. 571 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:51,990 You're now at 168, but the problem is you dropped 572 00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:55,230 by like a thousand, 2000, 5,000, whatever throughout 573 00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:55,890 the course of the year. 574 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:56,070 Yep. 575 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,280 By the start of the next year, you sort of forgot 576 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,145 that you used to be at 200 K. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 577 00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:03,270 Now I can say it's the boiled frog challenge. 578 00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:03,570 Yep. 579 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:04,740 It's exactly it. 580 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:05,580 That's exactly it. 581 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:11,100 And so it never gives you this holy shit moment to jump out 582 00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,440 of your seat and fire alarm, you know, into this thing, 583 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:15,515 and that's how it breaks. 584 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:18,270 Doesn't break because one major thing happened. 585 00:18:18,270 --> 00:18:19,200 I might, right? 586 00:18:19,770 --> 00:18:19,950 Yeah. 587 00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:22,170 It breaks because all these little things happen. 588 00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:26,670 It spilled cans of soda, the un unloaded lawn, and you weren't 589 00:18:26,670 --> 00:18:27,990 around to correct for it. 590 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:28,710 Yeah. 591 00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:29,130 And because 592 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:29,940 you were so, next thing you 593 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:32,610 know, you got a business up on blocks in your front yard, 594 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,215 which just happened. 595 00:18:35,775 --> 00:18:36,915 Well, that's kind of what happened. 596 00:18:36,945 --> 00:18:37,125 Okay. 597 00:18:37,125 --> 00:18:37,185 Yeah. 598 00:18:37,215 --> 00:18:40,005 So, so, you know, uh, let me, let me fast forward to that. 599 00:18:40,395 --> 00:18:42,825 So years go by, this isn't like a couple months 600 00:18:42,825 --> 00:18:43,305 or whatever this is. 601 00:18:43,305 --> 00:18:46,275 Years go by and I fly back to Columbus and I'm meeting with 602 00:18:46,275 --> 00:18:49,155 the team, and the team is fully checked out at this point. 603 00:18:49,155 --> 00:18:51,345 I I, I bet if they were all on the podcast right now, 604 00:18:51,345 --> 00:18:53,805 again, a great group people, they'd be like, yeah, we 605 00:18:53,805 --> 00:18:54,465 were pretty checked out. 606 00:18:54,465 --> 00:18:55,050 But yeah. 607 00:18:55,055 --> 00:18:55,395 Yeah. 608 00:18:55,395 --> 00:18:55,605 At that 609 00:18:55,605 --> 00:18:56,985 point we're like, Will's gone. 610 00:18:56,985 --> 00:18:58,095 We just send him checks. 611 00:18:58,095 --> 00:19:01,185 That doesn't feel that great and fuck this, I'm not gonna do 612 00:19:01,185 --> 00:19:02,175 any more work than I have to. 613 00:19:02,235 --> 00:19:02,535 Right. 614 00:19:02,535 --> 00:19:03,465 And frankly. 615 00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:04,420 I get it. 616 00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:05,170 I get it. 617 00:19:05,175 --> 00:19:05,254 Yeah. 618 00:19:05,290 --> 00:19:06,129 I didn't get it at the time. 619 00:19:06,129 --> 00:19:06,640 I get it now. 620 00:19:07,330 --> 00:19:10,600 So I come back and we're doing like a little strategy session 621 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,300 for how things are going, which I rarely did at this point. 622 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,360 I'm like three years removed by this point, Ryan, and I 623 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,180 remember sit down with him and I said, Hey, let's go over 624 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:20,530 the strategy for next year. 625 00:19:21,375 --> 00:19:22,275 And they're like, what do you mean? 626 00:19:22,635 --> 00:19:24,225 And I was like, what do you mean? 627 00:19:24,225 --> 00:19:24,825 What do I mean? 628 00:19:25,815 --> 00:19:26,265 It's like we 629 00:19:26,325 --> 00:19:28,755 just keep doing the same thing and you just keep 630 00:19:28,755 --> 00:19:30,945 ignoring us and that's it. 631 00:19:30,945 --> 00:19:31,275 Right? 632 00:19:31,275 --> 00:19:31,335 Yeah. 633 00:19:31,365 --> 00:19:31,935 Pretty much. 634 00:19:31,935 --> 00:19:32,355 Right. 635 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,555 And I was like, and by the way, it's all my fault, all my fault. 636 00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:39,825 I, I, I, I take full responsibility, but never 637 00:19:39,825 --> 00:19:41,715 saw it coming and Yeah. 638 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:41,740 Yeah. 639 00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:44,865 Uh, remember toward the end of this is when you showed up. 640 00:19:45,645 --> 00:19:47,025 This is, you know, before we had started what, what 641 00:19:47,025 --> 00:19:51,435 is now startups.com and so you saw some of the ghoulish 642 00:19:51,915 --> 00:19:53,265 stuff we had going on. 643 00:19:53,655 --> 00:19:56,325 You know, something that's really funny about everything 644 00:19:56,325 --> 00:19:59,805 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 645 00:20:00,075 --> 00:20:02,655 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 646 00:20:02,655 --> 00:20:06,465 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 647 00:20:06,465 --> 00:20:07,365 You may just not know it. 648 00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:08,350 But that's okay. 649 00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:10,540 That's kind of what we're here to do. 650 00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:13,210 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 651 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:17,200 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 652 00:20:17,379 --> 00:20:20,679 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 653 00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:23,710 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 654 00:20:23,710 --> 00:20:25,090 test and be done with it. 655 00:20:25,659 --> 00:20:27,760 I remember thinking at some point, what was it? 656 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,500 The, let me encapsulate the thought. 657 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:34,480 It was like, uh, when the room smiles, but the numbers frown. 658 00:20:35,639 --> 00:20:36,720 Believe the numbers. 659 00:20:36,929 --> 00:20:38,370 Believe the numbers, right? 660 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:39,030 Like, yeah. 661 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:40,830 Because there, there was this sense that everything 662 00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:41,790 was fine and right. 663 00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:42,870 And like, and it was like, yeah. 664 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:44,129 Oh, you know, we're just, we're just doing what 665 00:20:44,129 --> 00:20:44,639 we need to be doing. 666 00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:45,510 Yeah. 667 00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:47,940 It was, uh, yeah, it was a sense that there was this sort of a 668 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:51,389 disconnect between like the, the attitudes and the actions 669 00:20:51,389 --> 00:20:53,550 and, and like the, the outcomes that were actually happening. 670 00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:56,040 And I think it's one of those things that you, you do realize 671 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,460 at some point, which is that founder mode has become a meme. 672 00:20:59,460 --> 00:21:01,470 And, and look, I think it's a little overblown. 673 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:01,919 Yeah. 674 00:21:02,735 --> 00:21:05,315 Founder mode isn't a meme, it's also doesn't have to be 675 00:21:05,315 --> 00:21:06,065 like a full-time lifestyle. 676 00:21:06,065 --> 00:21:07,745 I, I think it's become too overblown, but it 677 00:21:07,745 --> 00:21:08,945 is a metabolic rate. 678 00:21:09,425 --> 00:21:10,895 It's how we process things, right? 679 00:21:10,895 --> 00:21:15,245 Like a, a founder is going to digest information and energy 680 00:21:15,245 --> 00:21:18,845 and do something with it at a different rate than someone 681 00:21:18,845 --> 00:21:20,044 else who comes in, right? 682 00:21:20,044 --> 00:21:22,024 And again, we both have a lot of respect for this individual. 683 00:21:22,024 --> 00:21:22,534 We both know him. 684 00:21:22,925 --> 00:21:26,315 So this isn't about the, the, that person's capability, but 685 00:21:26,375 --> 00:21:29,764 the way they think, feel, and operate within that business 686 00:21:30,125 --> 00:21:31,745 is entirely different. 687 00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:32,580 All right. 688 00:21:32,909 --> 00:21:34,830 And look, on one end of the spectrum, you could 689 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:36,540 hire somebody, not, not this individual, like 690 00:21:36,990 --> 00:21:38,939 hire somebody that's just like, they go full apathy. 691 00:21:39,659 --> 00:21:42,780 But let's just say that whoever you hire, I don't care who they 692 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:46,199 are, whoever you hire, they're gonna be closer to apathy 693 00:21:46,199 --> 00:21:47,550 than you as the founder were. 694 00:21:47,939 --> 00:21:49,409 They may be really close to where you are, but they're 695 00:21:49,409 --> 00:21:51,754 gonna be at least some degrees closer to that than, than, 696 00:21:51,754 --> 00:21:55,199 than you are because the costs are totally different, right? 697 00:21:55,199 --> 00:21:57,689 The stakes are completely different for that individual, 698 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:58,679 and you can't ignore that 699 00:21:59,040 --> 00:21:59,939 babysitter and a parent. 700 00:22:00,314 --> 00:22:01,245 Yeah, right, exactly. 701 00:22:01,245 --> 00:22:04,155 A babysitter's concerned, a parent's entire life 702 00:22:04,155 --> 00:22:05,790 is wrapped, you know, wrapped into the outcome. 703 00:22:06,389 --> 00:22:09,360 I, I remember, like, I'm, I'm fast forwarding to 704 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:11,879 around that time, this is like circa maybe 2011. 705 00:22:11,879 --> 00:22:14,370 I'm not always great with my dates, but 2011, 706 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:15,899 uh, we're wrapping up. 707 00:22:15,899 --> 00:22:17,820 One of the companies that I had, I had started called 708 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:20,730 unsubscribe.com and we were selling it off to, uh, to 709 00:22:20,730 --> 00:22:24,810 trusted id and, uh, Jamie Siminoff, who is my co-founder, 710 00:22:25,139 --> 00:22:27,330 who, you know, started Ring the doorbell company after that, 711 00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:28,800 and Jamie sat down with me. 712 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,700 I'll never forget what he said to me. 713 00:22:29,730 --> 00:22:31,230 He said, I'll never do this again. 714 00:22:32,145 --> 00:22:32,925 I was like, what do you mean? 715 00:22:33,165 --> 00:22:35,445 He said, this was your idea, the unsubscribed idea. 716 00:22:35,805 --> 00:22:39,645 He said, and I basically went all in on someone else's idea. 717 00:22:39,915 --> 00:22:40,004 Yeah. 718 00:22:40,004 --> 00:22:41,294 And it never felt like mine. 719 00:22:41,565 --> 00:22:44,024 I never, um, I, I never felt like the, the 720 00:22:44,024 --> 00:22:45,075 ownership, et cetera. 721 00:22:45,495 --> 00:22:46,695 And it, and it felt like I was taking care 722 00:22:46,695 --> 00:22:47,504 of somebody else's kid. 723 00:22:48,254 --> 00:22:49,665 And I mean, to, to Jamie's credit, he is 724 00:22:49,665 --> 00:22:50,355 very honest about it. 725 00:22:50,475 --> 00:22:50,745 Right. 726 00:22:51,014 --> 00:22:52,395 And, and self-aware. 727 00:22:52,784 --> 00:22:53,294 Um, yeah. 728 00:22:53,504 --> 00:22:54,075 Great lesson for him. 729 00:22:54,645 --> 00:22:57,255 Great lesson for him and, and I thought that's 730 00:22:57,255 --> 00:22:58,455 really interesting. 731 00:22:58,485 --> 00:23:00,285 I mean, we co-founded the company together. 732 00:23:00,285 --> 00:23:01,965 Our names are on the incorporation documents. 733 00:23:01,965 --> 00:23:02,265 Right. 734 00:23:02,655 --> 00:23:04,695 But he felt it wasn't his. 735 00:23:04,965 --> 00:23:05,145 Right. 736 00:23:05,150 --> 00:23:05,160 Sure. 737 00:23:05,235 --> 00:23:07,275 He felt it was a cool idea that Will had, so let's go, 738 00:23:07,335 --> 00:23:08,175 let's go do it together. 739 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:08,685 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 740 00:23:08,685 --> 00:23:10,425 But it wasn't like we. 741 00:23:11,055 --> 00:23:13,065 Both were at a bar one night and it just, like, 742 00:23:13,245 --> 00:23:14,625 the conversation sparked. 743 00:23:15,015 --> 00:23:17,145 So, so stick with that for a second because, because I 744 00:23:17,145 --> 00:23:19,965 think a lot of folks are, are gonna need to hear this twice. 745 00:23:20,055 --> 00:23:24,465 So that was somebody who started as a co-founder? 746 00:23:25,425 --> 00:23:26,685 Yeah, a co-founder. 747 00:23:26,745 --> 00:23:27,165 Great point. 748 00:23:27,165 --> 00:23:27,495 Right? 749 00:23:27,735 --> 00:23:30,135 And they didn't feel like they had the ownership. 750 00:23:30,315 --> 00:23:30,435 Right. 751 00:23:30,435 --> 00:23:32,600 Now they clearly like the, you know, financial ownership. 752 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:32,880 Yes. 753 00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:35,505 But idea and passion, ownership. 754 00:23:35,625 --> 00:23:36,255 No. 755 00:23:36,795 --> 00:23:40,155 And so if you can't create it at that level. 756 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,990 We have to recognize that anybody we bring in to 757 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:45,690 transfer to a new leader, if they didn't originate that 758 00:23:45,690 --> 00:23:49,980 idea, it's gonna be some even lower version of, of that 759 00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:52,920 level of feeling of ownership for that individual, right? 760 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:53,910 We have to act 761 00:23:53,910 --> 00:23:54,240 accordingly. 762 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,145 Most people work for a company who, who wasn't their idea. 763 00:23:56,895 --> 00:23:57,255 Right. 764 00:23:57,255 --> 00:23:58,725 I mean, like 99% of people, right. 765 00:23:58,815 --> 00:24:02,715 So I say that to say, but founders feel a lot 766 00:24:02,715 --> 00:24:03,675 differently about this. 767 00:24:03,675 --> 00:24:04,005 Right? 768 00:24:04,245 --> 00:24:07,545 And, and Jamie, who I, uh, he had started like six companies 769 00:24:07,545 --> 00:24:10,695 before that definitely, you know, knew what that feeling 770 00:24:10,695 --> 00:24:13,125 was like of being able to kinda like, you know, sell your 771 00:24:13,125 --> 00:24:15,735 own thing and notably felt. 772 00:24:16,755 --> 00:24:18,345 Not being able to sell something Right. 773 00:24:18,345 --> 00:24:20,775 That that was, that was truly, that he felt passionate about. 774 00:24:20,775 --> 00:24:21,465 And I, I get that. 775 00:24:21,465 --> 00:24:21,885 I get that. 776 00:24:22,215 --> 00:24:24,675 And so, so what I would say there though is, um, there's 777 00:24:24,675 --> 00:24:27,375 this really interesting thing where we have to 778 00:24:27,375 --> 00:24:31,155 recognize when we're handing something off that who we're 779 00:24:31,155 --> 00:24:33,435 handing it to ain't us. 780 00:24:34,005 --> 00:24:35,025 And I, I tell you what. 781 00:24:35,955 --> 00:24:38,265 I think there's a, there's an opposite argument 782 00:24:38,265 --> 00:24:39,015 that people try to make. 783 00:24:39,075 --> 00:24:42,285 Like, that's the point, man, I'm not a great CEO, 784 00:24:42,285 --> 00:24:43,245 I wasn't cut out for this. 785 00:24:43,245 --> 00:24:45,825 I wanna find somebody who was built for this, that is a 786 00:24:45,825 --> 00:24:48,435 career, CEO, you know, you, you name it, has the credentials. 787 00:24:48,435 --> 00:24:50,355 I don't have and, and could put the energy I 788 00:24:50,355 --> 00:24:51,255 don't have into this. 789 00:24:51,675 --> 00:24:52,815 And I get that argument. 790 00:24:53,085 --> 00:24:53,235 Yep. 791 00:24:53,295 --> 00:24:54,585 And they're still not you. 792 00:24:55,305 --> 00:24:56,565 Right, exactly. 793 00:24:56,565 --> 00:24:56,835 That. 794 00:24:57,045 --> 00:24:57,285 Yeah. 795 00:24:57,285 --> 00:24:58,935 That, that, that makes them different. 796 00:24:58,935 --> 00:25:00,165 But that doesn't make them you right. 797 00:25:00,585 --> 00:25:01,215 Correct. 798 00:25:01,215 --> 00:25:01,635 Correct. 799 00:25:01,725 --> 00:25:03,975 So let's talk about what you can hand off. 800 00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:04,335 Okay. 801 00:25:04,335 --> 00:25:06,705 Like, I, I don't wanna do this, like nothing can be done 802 00:25:06,705 --> 00:25:10,845 because you absolutely can and should hand off tons of stuff. 803 00:25:11,145 --> 00:25:13,695 So if you're okay with it, let's, let's start with 804 00:25:13,695 --> 00:25:16,455 the, what you can hand off and then let's get into 805 00:25:16,455 --> 00:25:17,505 what you can hand off. 806 00:25:17,505 --> 00:25:20,415 Like, just like danger will Robinson signals all over. 807 00:25:20,415 --> 00:25:21,285 Right, right, right, right, right. 808 00:25:21,705 --> 00:25:25,575 I think, I think you can very much hand off operational 809 00:25:25,575 --> 00:25:28,005 tasks like COO level tasks. 810 00:25:28,005 --> 00:25:28,335 What do you think? 811 00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:29,580 I think so 812 00:25:29,610 --> 00:25:31,620 I, I think that that's, I mean, like I'm, I'm going 813 00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:33,810 through and like, I'm trying to think of why, why I said 814 00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:37,050 yes to that so easily and like where it might break. 815 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,020 But I think that because by and large those things are, 816 00:25:40,020 --> 00:25:41,280 are, are highly documented. 817 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,270 They're highly regimented. 818 00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:43,410 They're, they're operational, right? 819 00:25:43,410 --> 00:25:45,180 So they're, they're repetitive by nature. 820 00:25:45,570 --> 00:25:48,600 And so yeah, I think that the, the operational stuff 821 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,940 can be to, to a degree. 822 00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:53,220 I think it does still come down to some things like. 823 00:25:53,675 --> 00:25:54,365 This is what I'm wondering. 824 00:25:54,365 --> 00:25:56,195 I'm wondering if there's a paradox and a bit of a, of 825 00:25:56,195 --> 00:26:00,425 a trap here in that those feel easy to hand off from 826 00:26:00,425 --> 00:26:01,835 a structural standpoint. 827 00:26:01,835 --> 00:26:03,485 Again, like documentation, all that. 828 00:26:04,055 --> 00:26:07,205 I'm wondering though if, if that, if that puts us 829 00:26:07,205 --> 00:26:09,515 in that dangerous position there when something does go 830 00:26:09,515 --> 00:26:12,870 wrong, um, that the reactions are different, right? 831 00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:14,855 That yes, you can, you can put somebody into 832 00:26:14,855 --> 00:26:16,655 that rule to execute it. 833 00:26:17,105 --> 00:26:19,265 Um, but I still feel like there's, there's always 834 00:26:19,265 --> 00:26:22,835 the risk that the, the reactions don't marry up. 835 00:26:23,385 --> 00:26:26,145 I remember early in my career I had hired a very competent 836 00:26:26,145 --> 00:26:28,965 COO, uh, and, and she went on to do amazing things. 837 00:26:29,295 --> 00:26:32,385 And I remember watching her in the room with, 838 00:26:32,385 --> 00:26:33,645 with the team, okay. 839 00:26:34,095 --> 00:26:35,955 And she's basically talking about, you know, what strategy 840 00:26:35,955 --> 00:26:37,095 is and what we're gonna do next. 841 00:26:37,095 --> 00:26:37,875 And, you know, all these things. 842 00:26:37,875 --> 00:26:40,455 Just like, you know, being a C-level person. 843 00:26:41,055 --> 00:26:43,875 And I remember thinking she has great authority, she 844 00:26:43,875 --> 00:26:47,024 has great credibility, and she's got great communication 845 00:26:47,745 --> 00:26:48,975 and she's inspiring. 846 00:26:48,975 --> 00:26:49,125 No one. 847 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,870 I, I just think about that for a second. 848 00:26:51,875 --> 00:26:52,075 Yeah. 849 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:52,260 Yeah. 850 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:54,000 She's a hundred percent competent. 851 00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:58,740 Competent, no issues there, but 0% as, you know, inspirational, 852 00:26:58,740 --> 00:26:59,370 aspirational, I dunno. 853 00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:02,400 Um, inspirational, let's say, and I thought to myself, huh? 854 00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:04,110 I didn't really see that coming. 855 00:27:04,260 --> 00:27:05,490 And lemme give you one more parallel. 856 00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:09,510 Around the same time I hired, um, a, a director of sales 857 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:11,460 who also went on, actually both these people went on 858 00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:14,520 to become very prominent CEOs and the director of 859 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,110 sales, um, that I'd hired. 860 00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:17,730 I was watching him give the pitch. 861 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:20,550 He's wildly professional, like very good, like 862 00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:21,480 pitch man, right? 863 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:22,535 But I was like. 864 00:27:23,235 --> 00:27:24,555 But there's no soul in his pitch. 865 00:27:24,825 --> 00:27:25,155 Mm-hmm. 866 00:27:25,365 --> 00:27:26,595 His pitch is accurate. 867 00:27:26,595 --> 00:27:28,545 What he's saying is true, right. 868 00:27:28,605 --> 00:27:31,275 He's reading the room properly, he's getting emotional signals. 869 00:27:31,275 --> 00:27:32,865 All the things you should do to work a room. 870 00:27:32,895 --> 00:27:33,045 Yep. 871 00:27:33,435 --> 00:27:34,065 Uh, when 872 00:27:34,755 --> 00:27:34,975 you son, good, good sales person. 873 00:27:35,264 --> 00:27:35,745 Correct. 874 00:27:36,165 --> 00:27:39,074 But it, it's like the difference between Tim Cook pitching 875 00:27:39,314 --> 00:27:40,485 and Steve Jobs pitching. 876 00:27:40,489 --> 00:27:40,669 Yeah. 877 00:27:40,675 --> 00:27:40,784 Yeah. 878 00:27:40,784 --> 00:27:41,834 There's just no magic. 879 00:27:42,044 --> 00:27:42,344 Yeah. 880 00:27:42,344 --> 00:27:42,584 Right. 881 00:27:42,794 --> 00:27:43,034 Yep. 882 00:27:43,215 --> 00:27:46,334 And, and I realized when I got up there, the reason I had 883 00:27:46,334 --> 00:27:50,264 a certain level of charisma is because I had a belief in 884 00:27:50,264 --> 00:27:53,774 something, a religious level, belief in what we were doing. 885 00:27:53,834 --> 00:27:54,044 Yep. 886 00:27:54,419 --> 00:27:56,280 That it wasn't a job for me. 887 00:27:56,340 --> 00:27:57,120 It was a mission. 888 00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:59,459 And I think like when, when Tim Cook gets up there, 889 00:27:59,459 --> 00:28:01,379 I'm not knocking Tim Cook, I'm, he's phenomenal. 890 00:28:01,379 --> 00:28:03,689 This is kind of the point when Tim Cook gets up there, 891 00:28:03,719 --> 00:28:06,510 he explains what the new gadget's going to do, right? 892 00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:07,800 But it doesn't make you dream. 893 00:28:08,159 --> 00:28:10,679 When Steve Jobs gets up there, by the time he's done, you 894 00:28:10,679 --> 00:28:11,729 don't even care if it works. 895 00:28:13,020 --> 00:28:14,790 Just like, like, damn seriously. 896 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:15,840 Sign me up. 897 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:16,290 What? 898 00:28:16,290 --> 00:28:19,290 You invented the MP three player that was made five years ago. 899 00:28:19,290 --> 00:28:19,830 Amazing. 900 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:20,310 I want one. 901 00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:21,449 I can't believe I've never had one. 902 00:28:21,449 --> 00:28:21,459 Right? 903 00:28:21,459 --> 00:28:21,625 One. 904 00:28:21,625 --> 00:28:21,990 I can't wait. 905 00:28:21,995 --> 00:28:22,225 Yeah, 906 00:28:22,225 --> 00:28:22,709 yeah, yeah. 907 00:28:22,709 --> 00:28:27,149 And so, uh, so he, he had this, this charisma, but it, 908 00:28:27,155 --> 00:28:30,659 it, it really came from almost a religious level, fervor. 909 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,930 Sure that he could deliver, that he can't hand off. 910 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:34,680 That's my, he can't. 911 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:35,160 Yeah. 912 00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:35,850 Yeah. 913 00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:37,320 And like, and they've tried, right? 914 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,760 They hire for IT companies this where they'll like 915 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,740 try to bring in the pitch person and all that stuff. 916 00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:43,050 And it's just, and again, like they'll give a great 917 00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:45,600 pitch, but it is not the same thing because it comes 918 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,140 from, it's the difference between seeing a beautiful 919 00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:53,460 sculpture, a piece of artwork versus seeing a masterclass 920 00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:54,510 done around building a home. 921 00:28:54,990 --> 00:28:55,200 Right? 922 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,520 This is something you can appreciate right now, right? 923 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,830 So like what an architect does. 924 00:28:59,220 --> 00:29:02,130 Where it's very deliberate and very purposeful and very like 925 00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:04,890 specific, and it accomplishes everything that it needs to. 926 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,570 Not that that's not beautiful, not that isn't 927 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:08,580 amazing, but it gives you a different feeling, right? 928 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:11,430 So when something is constructed in that way, sort of like as 929 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:15,600 it should be, as opposed to how it could be or, or why it 930 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,230 is, I think that's where that really just, it's irreplaceable. 931 00:29:19,265 --> 00:29:21,420 I I you, you don't see this after once 932 00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:22,560 founder led sales stop. 933 00:29:23,129 --> 00:29:24,899 That pitch does sort of die. 934 00:29:25,169 --> 00:29:25,439 Yeah. 935 00:29:25,439 --> 00:29:26,340 That, that's what I'm saying. 936 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:29,280 And, and, and I think there's, there's a, everybody here can 937 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,260 appreciate this that's listening 'cause they're all founders. 938 00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:34,470 There's a difference between buying from the owner, so 939 00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:36,720 to speak, or buying from the founder or buying for the 940 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,659 person, like who it's their baby, than buying from a 941 00:29:39,659 --> 00:29:40,745 person that that person hired. 942 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:42,700 It's just not the same thing. 943 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:45,790 It's the same way I feel when I'm in a restaurant, right? 944 00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:47,890 And the Mater D comes over and asks me how I'm doing. 945 00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:48,610 I'm like, oh, I'm doing great. 946 00:29:48,610 --> 00:29:49,690 You know, thanks, thanks for asking. 947 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,570 But then the owner comes over and it just feels special. 948 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,310 And I know for a fact that guy doesn't give 949 00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:55,030 a shit how I'm doing. 950 00:29:57,695 --> 00:29:57,965 Right. 951 00:29:58,595 --> 00:30:01,325 But it's, but I just, I, I feel this like sense 952 00:30:01,325 --> 00:30:03,274 of like importance 'cause like, you know Sure. 953 00:30:03,605 --> 00:30:05,705 This idea of it, and like I said, he, he's not gonna 954 00:30:05,794 --> 00:30:07,264 like get me a nicer drink. 955 00:30:07,264 --> 00:30:09,065 He's not gonna make sure my bill's taken care of. 956 00:30:09,065 --> 00:30:09,245 Right. 957 00:30:09,245 --> 00:30:11,945 Like the mader d might, um, he's not gonna do anything for me, 958 00:30:11,945 --> 00:30:15,215 but there's just something about his presence and his delivery 959 00:30:15,215 --> 00:30:16,685 that just feels special. 960 00:30:16,685 --> 00:30:16,715 Yeah. 961 00:30:17,254 --> 00:30:22,445 And I say that to say if that is a meaningful part of your job. 962 00:30:22,860 --> 00:30:25,200 Or what, what your company has to offer, you know, where you 963 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,360 work with your clients, where you, your outward face of your 964 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,230 company, et cetera, and you separate that and just say, oh, 965 00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:33,060 now this person is that person. 966 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,610 I'm not saying it can't work. 967 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,130 I'm saying you have to recognize you've taken something away. 968 00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:40,500 And, and we're gonna get into this in a moment when we talk 969 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:41,820 about stuff you can't hand off. 970 00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:44,400 But I think when, when I look at, I mentioned at the 971 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,730 beginning like COO level stuff, there's stuff where I'm like, 972 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:51,420 you just need to be competent. 973 00:30:52,034 --> 00:30:54,855 To do it well, you don't need to be special. 974 00:30:55,185 --> 00:30:55,544 Okay. 975 00:30:55,544 --> 00:30:55,605 Yeah. 976 00:30:55,995 --> 00:30:57,915 This is a bad example to start with 'cause it's, 977 00:30:57,915 --> 00:30:58,875 it's almost not true. 978 00:30:59,145 --> 00:30:59,475 But hiring. 979 00:31:00,419 --> 00:31:02,129 There's a certain, like there's certain roles. 980 00:31:02,189 --> 00:31:02,520 Yeah. 981 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:03,659 You seem to be competent, right? 982 00:31:03,659 --> 00:31:05,159 You seem like not screw it up. 983 00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:05,699 Yeah. 984 00:31:05,699 --> 00:31:06,629 And there's certain, basically you're hiring 985 00:31:06,629 --> 00:31:09,389 like the third, fourth, or fifth version of that same person 986 00:31:09,389 --> 00:31:10,169 then that's what I'm saying. 987 00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:10,469 Yeah. 988 00:31:10,469 --> 00:31:10,770 Right. 989 00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:14,669 If you're hiring engineer 23, you just 990 00:31:14,669 --> 00:31:15,810 need to not screw it up. 991 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:18,810 But when you're hiring engineer one, you gotta be special. 992 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,500 So, you know, depending on the maturity of the company, 993 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:23,360 and obviously if you're thinking about kinda like 994 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,280 hiring somebody to replace you, you've got a slightly 995 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,710 more mature company and that could mean for any, any level. 996 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,020 I also think that, you know, things that, that you can 997 00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:32,720 and should hand off are anything where if you could 998 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,640 be gone long enough and it can still get done, you 999 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,810 probably shouldn't be doing it. 1000 00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:37,040 Right. 1001 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:37,340 Yeah, that's 1002 00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:37,520 fair. 1003 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,480 You and I play test this once a year, uh, in December when 1004 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,780 I leave for my little hiatus, uh, once a year and kind 1005 00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:47,870 of do go do whatever it is that I do and I get to see. 1006 00:31:48,629 --> 00:31:52,740 One of my responsibilities got done really just fine 1007 00:31:52,745 --> 00:31:53,430 without me, without me. 1008 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,129 And my first thought is those are all things I can hand off. 1009 00:31:56,370 --> 00:31:59,250 But I also see, and this is not just specific to that 1010 00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:02,040 one month just in life, that there are certain things 1011 00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:03,750 that, um, if I do hand off. 1012 00:32:04,155 --> 00:32:04,815 There's a problem. 1013 00:32:04,935 --> 00:32:05,685 I'll give you an example. 1014 00:32:05,835 --> 00:32:08,774 In the last 25 years, I've been the CFO of every 1015 00:32:08,774 --> 00:32:10,065 company I I've worked at. 1016 00:32:10,274 --> 00:32:10,545 Okay? 1017 00:32:10,545 --> 00:32:10,635 Yep. 1018 00:32:10,665 --> 00:32:12,555 It's like my job I never talk about. 1019 00:32:12,764 --> 00:32:12,975 Okay? 1020 00:32:12,975 --> 00:32:13,095 Yep. 1021 00:32:13,125 --> 00:32:14,805 But you and I have worked together for a long 1022 00:32:14,805 --> 00:32:15,645 time in this capacity. 1023 00:32:16,365 --> 00:32:18,225 I will never hire for that position. 1024 00:32:18,284 --> 00:32:21,135 I will never, ever, ever hire for that position. 1025 00:32:21,405 --> 00:32:23,475 However, we've had plenty of finance people. 1026 00:32:24,105 --> 00:32:25,635 People, people running payroll, people doing 1027 00:32:25,635 --> 00:32:27,345 bookkeeping, people, whatever, people handling 1028 00:32:27,345 --> 00:32:29,295 the ops side of finance. 1029 00:32:29,655 --> 00:32:31,575 Not the same thing as it would happen, right? 1030 00:32:31,575 --> 00:32:33,885 Not the same thing, because I wanna know at the end of the 1031 00:32:33,885 --> 00:32:36,675 day when that number goes a little bit off, when it goes 1032 00:32:36,675 --> 00:32:40,875 from 200 to 1 98, I wanna be the first person that sees it. 1033 00:32:40,875 --> 00:32:41,085 Yes. 1034 00:32:41,115 --> 00:32:42,525 Because I wanna be able to jump into it. 1035 00:32:42,855 --> 00:32:44,265 Now, not everybody else, you know, thinks about 1036 00:32:44,265 --> 00:32:45,795 the numbers like that, but I sure as hell do. 1037 00:32:45,795 --> 00:32:46,485 Let's shift gears. 1038 00:32:46,485 --> 00:32:48,345 Let's talk about what we cannot hand off. 1039 00:32:48,345 --> 00:32:48,355 Sure. 1040 00:32:48,355 --> 00:32:50,685 Because I think this is probably the more substantive part. 1041 00:32:51,075 --> 00:32:54,315 Um, for you, if you think categorically, if you were to 1042 00:32:54,315 --> 00:32:56,445 hand hand off the business, what is the one thing you would 1043 00:32:56,445 --> 00:32:57,765 just absolutely not hand off? 1044 00:32:58,425 --> 00:33:02,145 I think one of the places that you do start to see degradation 1045 00:33:02,415 --> 00:33:04,035 is, is within company culture. 1046 00:33:04,425 --> 00:33:06,375 And that's an interesting one because it's, it's the 1047 00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:06,930 kind of thing where like. 1048 00:33:07,695 --> 00:33:09,254 It isn't necessarily somebody's stated 1049 00:33:09,254 --> 00:33:11,114 responsibility either, right? 1050 00:33:11,114 --> 00:33:11,235 Yeah. 1051 00:33:11,385 --> 00:33:13,334 Depending on how big the company is, how many co-founders 1052 00:33:13,334 --> 00:33:16,064 there are, how, how, how broad or, or, or or narrow 1053 00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:17,925 the, the management team is. 1054 00:33:18,074 --> 00:33:22,875 But I feel like culture is one of those and I, I 1055 00:33:22,875 --> 00:33:25,245 think, look there, there's probably three or four for 1056 00:33:25,245 --> 00:33:27,014 me, strategy and vision. 1057 00:33:27,344 --> 00:33:29,280 You know, I think that kind of to your point 1058 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,080 before, right, like. 1059 00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:33,240 Tim Cook doing a good job running the thing. 1060 00:33:33,689 --> 00:33:35,879 There is nothing visionary about the guy. 1061 00:33:36,030 --> 00:33:36,330 Right. 1062 00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:38,490 Uh, he'd probably say the same thing if he was 1063 00:33:38,490 --> 00:33:39,330 listening to this podcast. 1064 00:33:39,389 --> 00:33:39,720 Right. 1065 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,470 Not his thing. 1066 00:33:40,649 --> 00:33:40,889 Yeah. 1067 00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:42,929 And by, by comparison at least. 1068 00:33:42,929 --> 00:33:43,139 Right. 1069 00:33:43,139 --> 00:33:44,520 He's not that level of visionary. 1070 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,330 Um, so I think strategy, vision, culture is, is a big 1071 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:49,800 one for me to some degree. 1072 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,540 I think you use the example of hiring, but I think like, 1073 00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:53,669 again, there's a point in time, so I think it also depends 1074 00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:54,689 on the stage a little bit. 1075 00:33:54,990 --> 00:33:57,270 But I'd say that like those, those two or three. 1076 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,210 I think that they're super important in that they 1077 00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:02,220 also link together, right? 1078 00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:04,860 Because if you've got, you know, you may have the right 1079 00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:07,530 strategy, you may have the right vision, but if company 1080 00:34:07,530 --> 00:34:10,200 culture has degraded to a point where they're not working 1081 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,220 together, they don't care. 1082 00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:14,460 You've lost, you know, passion, you've lost drive, you're 1083 00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:15,420 not gonna achieve it anyways. 1084 00:34:15,420 --> 00:34:18,600 And so I think there's, there are pieces of a system 1085 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,840 that all tend to degrade either one at a time or 1086 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,450 together, but the impact's kind of the same, right? 1087 00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:25,230 It's links in a chain. 1088 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:26,670 I had this 1089 00:34:27,509 --> 00:34:30,389 one of the most fascinating exit interviews ever with a 1090 00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:31,650 developer back in the day. 1091 00:34:31,710 --> 00:34:32,130 Okay? 1092 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,420 And I've never seen someone be so incredibly honest in 1093 00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:37,469 their exit interview, right? 1094 00:34:37,739 --> 00:34:40,440 Developer comes to me and he said, listen, you know, 1095 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,130 it's, it's my last day. 1096 00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:42,179 I'm going off to another company. 1097 00:34:42,179 --> 00:34:45,750 He's like, but I need you to hear me out when I say 1098 00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:48,310 there are two reasons or two things you don't know about. 1099 00:34:49,065 --> 00:34:51,465 Now that I'm leaving, I, I can tell you, I was like, oh, okay. 1100 00:34:51,885 --> 00:34:52,395 Interesting. 1101 00:34:52,395 --> 00:34:54,525 That's a, that's a big lead up, right? 1102 00:34:54,525 --> 00:34:54,855 Yeah. 1103 00:34:54,975 --> 00:34:57,345 Um, he's like, I've been embezzling from the company. 1104 00:34:58,425 --> 00:34:59,715 Right, right, right, right. 1105 00:34:59,775 --> 00:35:02,835 Uh, so he says first thing, and this is like way back 1106 00:35:02,835 --> 00:35:05,235 in the nineties, he's like, work from home is bullshit. 1107 00:35:05,595 --> 00:35:05,685 Right. 1108 00:35:05,685 --> 00:35:07,635 And we didn't work from home like long before people could 1109 00:35:07,635 --> 00:35:08,685 like spell work from home. 1110 00:35:09,045 --> 00:35:09,195 Yeah. 1111 00:35:09,255 --> 00:35:10,065 And I was like, what? 1112 00:35:10,065 --> 00:35:10,425 What do you mean? 1113 00:35:10,425 --> 00:35:11,055 He's like, dude. 1114 00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:15,000 All I do all day is sit home and do bong hits and sometimes work. 1115 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:15,540 Right? 1116 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,940 He's like, it's just an excuse to just fuck around. 1117 00:35:18,299 --> 00:35:19,380 I was like, wow. 1118 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:19,890 Wow. 1119 00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:20,009 Okay. 1120 00:35:20,009 --> 00:35:20,790 Too bad you're leaving. 1121 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:21,839 Yeah. 1122 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:24,660 And so, no, but he was actually very talented. 1123 00:35:24,690 --> 00:35:28,890 Uh, and so the second thing he said, he said, the reason I'm 1124 00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:32,040 leaving is because I didn't come here to work for the guy that, 1125 00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:33,360 that you replaced yourself with. 1126 00:35:34,140 --> 00:35:34,589 Mm, yeah. 1127 00:35:34,799 --> 00:35:35,490 I was like, huh? 1128 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,680 I was like, go on. 1129 00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:38,460 He said. 1130 00:35:38,819 --> 00:35:42,089 Listen, I know we're not super close, but you recruited 1131 00:35:42,089 --> 00:35:43,109 me like you found me. 1132 00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:43,950 You sought me out. 1133 00:35:43,950 --> 00:35:47,189 Like, like you, you, you got me a across the table 1134 00:35:47,189 --> 00:35:49,200 in a restaurant and you convinced me to leave my job. 1135 00:35:49,649 --> 00:35:49,709 Yeah. 1136 00:35:49,709 --> 00:35:52,589 And I believed in you and you're not here anymore. 1137 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:53,399 Right. 1138 00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:54,870 And, and I'm not the only one. 1139 00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:55,379 That was the thing. 1140 00:35:55,379 --> 00:35:56,040 He, he really said. 1141 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,100 He's like, you need to pay attention here because you're, 1142 00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,830 you're losing your team because they feel you abandoned them. 1143 00:36:02,670 --> 00:36:04,170 I was like, damn, that's a, yeah. 1144 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,150 Thanks for the heavy stuff on your way out, bro. 1145 00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:06,690 Right. 1146 00:36:06,839 --> 00:36:08,310 Um, but, but he wasn't wrong. 1147 00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:09,150 He was a hundred percent 1148 00:36:09,765 --> 00:36:10,620 No, no, for sure. 1149 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,279 On hearing that, did, did it change anything about just even 1150 00:36:14,279 --> 00:36:18,000 how you, how you approached handoffs or, or even like, 1151 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,400 did it change your, your feelings about them overall? 1152 00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:22,350 Like, like maybe this, this is really isn't worth 1153 00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:23,050 trying to hand stuff off. 1154 00:36:23,835 --> 00:36:25,815 It was the first time I, I, I didn't even 1155 00:36:25,815 --> 00:36:26,535 know it was a thing yet. 1156 00:36:26,565 --> 00:36:28,125 I mean, I was like 25 years old, right? 1157 00:36:28,125 --> 00:36:29,925 So I, I was learning on the job, like everything was new 1158 00:36:29,925 --> 00:36:33,135 to me and I was like, huh, do other people feel this way? 1159 00:36:33,645 --> 00:36:36,315 And so I just started to dig in and I started asking a lot 1160 00:36:36,315 --> 00:36:38,295 of other people, Hey, like, you know, since we brought new 1161 00:36:38,295 --> 00:36:39,885 guy in, are you still good? 1162 00:36:40,635 --> 00:36:45,045 They're like, no, it wasn't even, it wasn't even like, 1163 00:36:45,045 --> 00:36:46,125 oh no, I'm, I'm cool, man. 1164 00:36:46,125 --> 00:36:46,605 It's fine. 1165 00:36:46,965 --> 00:36:49,035 Every person I talked to was like, no, this culture 1166 00:36:49,035 --> 00:36:50,025 sucks now that you're gone. 1167 00:36:50,235 --> 00:36:52,575 And, and it's funny, they weren't trying to 1168 00:36:52,575 --> 00:36:54,855 hype me up, like, you know, you were so great. 1169 00:36:55,155 --> 00:36:57,975 They were more like trying to like, not attack, but 1170 00:36:57,975 --> 00:36:59,415 like, like put it on me. 1171 00:36:59,865 --> 00:37:01,755 They were like, dude, you left us right. 1172 00:37:01,785 --> 00:37:02,505 Not cool, bro. 1173 00:37:02,865 --> 00:37:03,135 Yeah. 1174 00:37:03,225 --> 00:37:04,245 And I was like, wow. 1175 00:37:04,245 --> 00:37:05,805 I didn't even see it coming. 1176 00:37:06,375 --> 00:37:09,825 And so to your point, I was the culture. 1177 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:10,620 Right. 1178 00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:13,740 I drove kind of our irreverent culture and kind of like 1179 00:37:13,740 --> 00:37:15,690 our fast and loose and our, everything else like that. 1180 00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:18,210 Ironically, we brought the other guy in to make that go 1181 00:37:18,210 --> 00:37:21,270 away 'cause we thought it was gonna be a liability, right? 1182 00:37:21,390 --> 00:37:22,859 Like every internet company of the era. 1183 00:37:23,370 --> 00:37:26,370 And it turned out it was the reason people that were there. 1184 00:37:26,910 --> 00:37:28,440 Founders admit culture, right? 1185 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,870 Like we are correct the culture, uh, to begin with. 1186 00:37:31,049 --> 00:37:33,990 I think in best case scenario, you know, like the, the, the 1187 00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:38,130 hired gun, the replacement maybe can maintain the culture. 1188 00:37:38,895 --> 00:37:40,125 But probably not. 1189 00:37:40,665 --> 00:37:42,165 Yeah, probably not even. 1190 00:37:42,465 --> 00:37:46,185 There's a difference between culture being, it's, it's uh, 1191 00:37:46,245 --> 00:37:47,955 like wacky Wednesdays, right? 1192 00:37:48,015 --> 00:37:49,725 Or, or Hawaii T-shirt Fridays. 1193 00:37:49,725 --> 00:37:49,875 Right. 1194 00:37:49,965 --> 00:37:50,535 Like, just don't worry. 1195 00:37:50,535 --> 00:37:52,965 Even though Will's gone, we're still doing Hawaiian 1196 00:37:52,965 --> 00:37:55,605 t-shirt, Fridays gang, nothing will change. 1197 00:37:55,845 --> 00:37:57,975 There's just like, there's company party, there's whatever. 1198 00:37:57,975 --> 00:37:58,305 Right? 1199 00:37:58,365 --> 00:37:58,695 Yeah. 1200 00:37:58,755 --> 00:38:01,634 And there's a dramatic difference between some kind 1201 00:38:01,634 --> 00:38:03,315 of crazy fun just broke out. 1202 00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:06,029 Because everyone had permission to just have 1203 00:38:06,029 --> 00:38:07,140 fun, you know what I mean? 1204 00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:08,985 Like, because the founder was having fun or the manager 1205 00:38:09,125 --> 00:38:10,020 was having fun or whatever. 1206 00:38:10,170 --> 00:38:12,240 It's, it's, it's how we fell into playing hockey. 1207 00:38:12,585 --> 00:38:12,855 Right? 1208 00:38:12,855 --> 00:38:12,945 Yep. 1209 00:38:13,215 --> 00:38:14,715 Like, you know, for those that aren't familiar, 1210 00:38:14,715 --> 00:38:17,535 that@onepointstartups.com was very serious about playing 1211 00:38:17,535 --> 00:38:21,105 hockey and on Friday at three o'clock, the entire company 1212 00:38:21,375 --> 00:38:23,295 would pack their stuff, go out in the parking lot and 1213 00:38:23,295 --> 00:38:24,255 play street hockey together. 1214 00:38:24,585 --> 00:38:26,295 It was incredible 'cause it was a great team building 1215 00:38:26,295 --> 00:38:28,455 thing that like wasn't intended for team building, it was 1216 00:38:28,455 --> 00:38:29,535 just, hey, it's nice outside. 1217 00:38:29,535 --> 00:38:30,615 We get to play hockey in the street. 1218 00:38:31,049 --> 00:38:33,839 It was one of those things where had we hired quote management in 1219 00:38:33,839 --> 00:38:36,089 like if private equity came and bought us and put like actual 1220 00:38:36,089 --> 00:38:38,430 professional management, no one was gonna be playing hockey. 1221 00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:39,660 Like this is just never gonna happen. 1222 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:40,620 Well, 1223 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,160 probably not, but they probably would've at least insisted 1224 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,310 that we start with the, the appropriate safety equipment, 1225 00:38:47,310 --> 00:38:48,419 which we eventually got to. 1226 00:38:48,810 --> 00:38:51,270 But if you recall, will, the way we got to proper safety 1227 00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:53,730 equipment was somebody's finger got slashed. 1228 00:38:53,759 --> 00:38:54,839 Okay, we'll get gloves. 1229 00:38:55,049 --> 00:38:56,910 Somebody got a cut above the eye. 1230 00:38:56,910 --> 00:38:57,149 Okay. 1231 00:38:57,149 --> 00:38:57,839 We'll get helmets. 1232 00:38:57,845 --> 00:38:58,265 Right. 1233 00:38:58,745 --> 00:38:59,825 The goalies are complaining. 1234 00:38:59,825 --> 00:39:00,964 They don't wanna be goal anymore 'cause they go 1235 00:39:00,964 --> 00:39:02,134 home covered in bruises. 1236 00:39:02,134 --> 00:39:02,314 Okay. 1237 00:39:02,314 --> 00:39:03,125 We'll get some pads. 1238 00:39:03,395 --> 00:39:03,634 Yeah. 1239 00:39:04,265 --> 00:39:05,855 That, that would've been handled very differently. 1240 00:39:06,214 --> 00:39:06,305 Yes. 1241 00:39:06,305 --> 00:39:06,484 I would 1242 00:39:06,484 --> 00:39:08,705 say the other thing that you can't hand off and 1243 00:39:08,734 --> 00:39:11,404 maybe the most important thing to me is urgency. 1244 00:39:11,765 --> 00:39:12,095 Yeah. 1245 00:39:12,095 --> 00:39:14,915 Man, you can't rent 3:00 AM panic. 1246 00:39:14,975 --> 00:39:15,964 You cannot Exactly. 1247 00:39:15,964 --> 00:39:16,564 That stuff. 1248 00:39:16,595 --> 00:39:17,404 It just doesn't. 1249 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:17,980 Doesn't work. 1250 00:39:17,980 --> 00:39:18,125 Hire the three 1251 00:39:18,370 --> 00:39:18,665 and panic. 1252 00:39:18,904 --> 00:39:19,205 Right. 1253 00:39:19,205 --> 00:39:23,044 And Ryan, you and I get really anxious about stuff 1254 00:39:23,314 --> 00:39:26,464 that most people would not either see or care about. 1255 00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:27,209 Okay. 1256 00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:29,009 Wouldn't, wouldn't even even register 1257 00:39:29,015 --> 00:39:29,345 sometimes. 1258 00:39:29,375 --> 00:39:29,665 Yeah. 1259 00:39:29,665 --> 00:39:31,439 And sometimes it, it leads to nothing. 1260 00:39:31,770 --> 00:39:34,979 But more often than not, that little bit of intuition 1261 00:39:34,979 --> 00:39:37,680 that we have, that something feels off and we start 1262 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:38,729 peeling back the onion. 1263 00:39:39,299 --> 00:39:41,189 More often than not, it leads to something. 1264 00:39:41,549 --> 00:39:45,330 Yeah, and I remember like in a, in a previous company, one 1265 00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:48,990 of my co-founders said to me, they said, every time you get 1266 00:39:48,990 --> 00:39:50,459 that itch, there's a problem. 1267 00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:53,430 He, he said, I don't know how, like, how you do that, 1268 00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:55,919 or like, you know what you're tuning fork is, but as soon 1269 00:39:55,919 --> 00:39:58,500 as I hear you say, Hey, this might be a problem. 1270 00:39:58,799 --> 00:39:58,890 Yeah. 1271 00:39:58,919 --> 00:40:00,899 I now look at it as it's absolutely a problem. 1272 00:40:00,899 --> 00:40:01,645 We just don't know where it is yet. 1273 00:40:02,660 --> 00:40:05,330 We, we, you and I even refer to it as like the Spidey sense. 1274 00:40:05,330 --> 00:40:05,540 Right? 1275 00:40:05,540 --> 00:40:05,550 Exactly. 1276 00:40:05,550 --> 00:40:06,560 It's a thing where it's like, yeah, exactly. 1277 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:06,920 Yep. 1278 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,530 I don't know exactly what I'm reacting to. 1279 00:40:09,860 --> 00:40:12,680 It's something you feel, it's the way that, right. 1280 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,950 We are consuming the information and energy around us. 1281 00:40:16,310 --> 00:40:16,490 Yeah. 1282 00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:19,160 At Lisa, this is part of what I was trying to get at before 1283 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,540 with the metabolic rate. 1284 00:40:20,955 --> 00:40:25,605 It just, we consume and, and digest things differently than 1285 00:40:25,605 --> 00:40:28,785 anyone else does, and especially where urgency is concerned. 1286 00:40:29,115 --> 00:40:34,455 You know it, no one sprints after a problem, they don't 1287 00:40:34,455 --> 00:40:35,535 even know that they own. 1288 00:40:35,924 --> 00:40:36,225 Right? 1289 00:40:37,305 --> 00:40:38,924 And, and, and yet with a founder, we 1290 00:40:38,955 --> 00:40:39,915 own all of it, right? 1291 00:40:39,915 --> 00:40:42,375 Every single one of those problems is ours fully. 1292 00:40:42,495 --> 00:40:43,480 And so we sprint after. 1293 00:40:44,130 --> 00:40:44,610 All of them 1294 00:40:44,940 --> 00:40:45,210 now. 1295 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,100 So the question becomes obviously like, does 1296 00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:48,870 it mean we're chained to this thing forever? 1297 00:40:49,230 --> 00:40:52,680 No, it, it doesn't mean we're chained to it forever, but 1298 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,090 we can't unlink entirely. 1299 00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:55,650 We cannot that that is, yeah. 1300 00:40:55,650 --> 00:40:58,290 If you wanna guarantee this thing goes to the bottom 1301 00:40:58,290 --> 00:41:01,050 of the ocean, disconnect entirely and see how that goes. 1302 00:41:01,590 --> 00:41:05,160 The key here is to disconnect from as many things. 1303 00:41:05,759 --> 00:41:08,520 That you don't wanna do, can't do, et cetera. 1304 00:41:08,879 --> 00:41:12,540 But while keeping tied to the things that matter, maybe 1305 00:41:12,540 --> 00:41:14,580 it's the numbers, maybe it's the culture, maybe it's just 1306 00:41:14,580 --> 00:41:15,839 that, that sense of urgency. 1307 00:41:16,319 --> 00:41:18,720 You wanna be tied in enough, right? 1308 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:21,960 You want, you wanna let the kids alone, and I'm not equating, uh. 1309 00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:24,300 Fully grown people to kids, but just people that, that 1310 00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:26,910 are acting on, on their own agency enough so that they 1311 00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:29,370 can kind of do their own thing and you're out of the way, but 1312 00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:30,930 you're never that far away. 1313 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,540 You're never that far away from what's happening from 1314 00:41:33,540 --> 00:41:34,440 your ear to the ground. 1315 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,610 What's happening with the culture? 1316 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,280 Like I was saying a moment ago, the developers say like, Hey, 1317 00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:39,750 you're gone and it's a problem. 1318 00:41:40,050 --> 00:41:41,910 You always wanna have your ear to the ground, no 1319 00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:43,950 matter how much you feel you need to disconnect. 1320 00:41:44,345 --> 00:41:46,924 You probably do feel like you need to disconnect 1321 00:41:47,194 --> 00:41:48,245 quite a bit by this point. 1322 00:41:48,245 --> 00:41:50,045 You know, you, you, you want to just recharge. 1323 00:41:50,315 --> 00:41:50,495 Yep. 1324 00:41:50,495 --> 00:41:51,275 And you deserve that. 1325 00:41:51,634 --> 00:41:53,464 By all means, get the break. 1326 00:41:53,615 --> 00:41:57,634 Do not get the break at the expense of being connected to 1327 00:41:57,634 --> 00:42:00,694 your company because as soon as you sever that tie, you're 1328 00:42:00,694 --> 00:42:02,105 screwed for the entire time. 1329 00:42:03,335 --> 00:42:05,195 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1330 00:42:05,585 --> 00:42:08,465 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1331 00:42:08,495 --> 00:42:11,585 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1332 00:42:11,675 --> 00:42:14,015 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1333 00:42:14,015 --> 00:42:16,445 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1334 00:42:16,595 --> 00:42:21,215 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1335 00:42:21,335 --> 00:42:22,235 to see if it's for you. 1336 00:42:22,475 --> 00:42:23,555 Could be just the thing you need. 1337 00:42:23,735 --> 00:42:24,725 I hope to see you inside.