WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.421 --> 00:00:09.671 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:00:09.671 --> 00:00:13.641 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast. 00:00:13.651 --> 00:00:17.011 Joining me today from DC, Rachel Thrash. 00:00:17.011 --> 00:00:17.031 Thank you. 00:00:17.031 --> 00:00:17.081 It's lovely to be here. 00:00:17.081 --> 00:00:17.631 Rachel, welcome. 00:00:18.169 --> 00:00:22.949 So I'm excited about today's conversation focusing on student voice and student ownership. 00:00:23.009 --> 00:00:30.629 Before we get into your background and where you're coming from, um, I always like to start with a few rapid-fire questions. 00:00:30.659 --> 00:00:40.399 And for the audience, I gave Rachel the choice of knowing the questions ahead of time or just thinking on her feet, and she was really brave thinking on your feet. 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:45.639 So we'll give, we'll provide, you know, whatever forgiveness needed, but I think you're gonna do just fine. 00:00:45.639 --> 00:00:50.889 But these are just kind of fun out of the, out of, you know, off the, off-the-cuff type questions. 00:00:50.899 --> 00:00:51.799 So here you go. 00:00:51.849 --> 00:00:53.569 I think there's five or six of them. 00:00:54.209 --> 00:00:56.309 Um, a book every school leader 00:00:56.309 --> 00:00:56.449 Rachael Thrash: should read. 00:00:56.459 --> 00:00:57.509 Oh, great question. 00:00:57.529 --> 00:01:10.939 I think 10 to 25 by David Yeager is one of my favorite books because I love how it leans into support for young people needs to be both aspirational and provide all the support and care 00:01:14.339 --> 00:01:15.379 Mike Caldwell: 10 00:01:15.449 --> 00:01:17.043 Rachael Thrash: to 25 Yes … lessons in a book. 00:01:17.043 --> 00:01:17.077 Oh, it's amazing. 00:01:17.077 --> 00:01:17.134 I've never heard of it. 00:01:17.134 --> 00:01:17.157 Highly recommend. 00:01:17.157 --> 00:01:17.209 I'm gonna 00:01:17.209 --> 00:01:17.859 Mike Caldwell: have to look it up. 00:01:17.899 --> 00:01:18.229 See? 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:27.829 See, right there, first five seconds of the podcast, I already have some- s- something I, I just learned and am gonna add to my own leadership repertoire. 00:01:27.869 --> 00:01:28.559 So cool. 00:01:29.119 --> 00:01:29.379 All right. 00:01:29.389 --> 00:01:29.969 Second question. 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:32.939 One misconception adults have about students. 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:37.729 Rachael Thrash: Um, oftentimes that they don't care or they're not trying or they're disaffected. 00:01:38.099 --> 00:01:49.899 Every kid has… They all want to be recognized and appreciated, and oftentimes they're putting up those, those walls because they need to save their pride. 00:01:50.029 --> 00:01:54.949 So how can we make them and help them feel encouraged and bring down that wall? 00:01:58.401 --> 00:01:58.821 Mike Caldwell: Cool. 00:01:59.641 --> 00:02:03.791 What's one word students wish adults used less? 00:02:03.851 --> 00:02:04.471 Rachael Thrash: Should 00:02:08.579 --> 00:02:08.799 Mike Caldwell: Hmm. 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:10.919 Rachael Thrash: Sure. 00:02:11.239 --> 00:02:27.399 I- What a library … I think that- I love that … we run in and either tell kids what they should do or think that they don't have the answers and run in with too much support before they've even given it a try, and give them all the advice that they haven't even sought yet. 00:02:27.809 --> 00:02:36.999 And if we slow down a little bit and eliminate some of-- And my daughter might, uh, my daughter might give you a, a, a side glance and be like, "Oh, Mom, sure, you never use that." 00:02:37.009 --> 00:02:43.049 But always easier to s- Right … do with your students than with your own children. 00:02:43.099 --> 00:02:57.449 But I think when we give kids space and time to figure things out on their own and wait for them to seek our advice, then we can eliminate some of the shoulds and say, "Maybe you could try this or maybe this," and give kids more agency 00:03:00.931 --> 00:03:01.471 Mike Caldwell: I love that. 00:03:01.981 --> 00:03:02.461 I love that. 00:03:02.721 --> 00:03:07.521 Um, one school practice you'd eliminate tomorrow 00:03:07.521 --> 00:03:08.601 Rachael Thrash: High-stakes assessments 00:03:12.761 --> 00:03:13.071 Yeah 00:03:13.131 --> 00:03:14.651 Mike Caldwell: No explanation needed there. 00:03:14.881 --> 00:03:17.241 One school practice you would expand everywhere? 00:03:17.291 --> 00:03:30.741 Rachael Thrash: Giving kids opportunities to redo anything, um, almost infinitely so that it's about learning and not about labels, and it becomes safer for kids to make mistakes. 00:03:31.191 --> 00:03:33.211 Um, so everything is more iterative 00:03:38.079 --> 00:03:38.469 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:03:39.559 --> 00:03:41.299 A leader who has influenced your- 00:03:41.349 --> 00:03:42.369 Rachael Thrash: Hmm … thinking. 00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:43.589 Margaret Wheatley. 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:58.879 Um, she is someone who talks about islands of sanity, and as we're looking at how society has become so, in some respects it feels so complicated, so big, and like it's failing. 00:03:59.359 --> 00:04:12.999 How can we look towards small communities and think about the power and influence and good things that we can spark by working together in smaller, what she refers to as islands of sanity? 00:04:13.029 --> 00:04:28.209 And that's really influenced me in my thinking about how we can be optimists and move forward, and we can share that with other educators or other kids who feel sometimes the world feels discouraging right now 00:04:31.417 --> 00:04:31.717 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:04:32.607 --> 00:04:34.357 All right, last rapid fire question. 00:04:35.357 --> 00:04:41.077 You could have a coffee shop conversation with any educator living or dead. 00:04:41.137 --> 00:04:41.227 Who would it be? 00:04:41.977 --> 00:04:43.507 Rachael Thrash: Oh, that's a good question. 00:04:43.507 --> 00:04:46.297 Maybe Ted Sizer and Nancy Sizer. 00:04:46.347 --> 00:04:47.347 She's always forgotten. 00:04:47.347 --> 00:05:01.047 I don't know why, but, um, how they really… I love how they simplified curriculum in many respects and really focus on constructing student-centered learning. 00:05:01.497 --> 00:05:11.747 And I'd like to see what they think about, you know, the dawn of AI, uh, uh, they- how we work with students to co-construct that. 00:05:12.237 --> 00:05:19.327 Um, they were very influential to me in my early teaching, and so I'd, I'd like to he- hear how their thoughts have progressed. 00:05:22.849 --> 00:05:23.159 Mike Caldwell: Love it. 00:05:23.529 --> 00:05:23.889 Love it. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:29.659 Well, for those of you who are just joining for the five-minute version of this podcast- … there it was, so thank you. 00:05:29.709 --> 00:05:31.569 Uh, but let's jump into the rest of it. 00:05:32.069 --> 00:05:38.189 So we're gonna talk about, um, I think the overall theme is from student voice to student ownership. 00:05:38.249 --> 00:05:40.859 Um, and many schools talk about student voice. 00:05:41.349 --> 00:05:59.719 Um, and you know, I could think of myself at, you know, my, my role as a school leader, but truly invite… You know, few truly invite student, um, to help shape the culture of the school itself, and that's one of, I think, one of your major themes, um, in, in this conversation perhaps. 00:05:59.739 --> 00:06:08.069 Um, but before we go there, why don't you share a little bit of your background for the audience, where you're coming from, a little bit of experience that kind of tees up- Absolutely 00:06:08.889 --> 00:06:09.294 Rachael Thrash: the rest of this conversation. 00:06:09.294 --> 00:06:31.548 So I am-- I've been in education for over 25 years now, and I've had an interesting journey in that I've worked both in the United States and abroad, primarily in Europe, so at the International School of Helsinki, at the American School of Warsaw, and I have somehow done everything from teaching the little ones to even teaching at a community college for a period of time. 00:06:32.019 --> 00:06:44.519 Um, and that's really given me a, an opportunity to see how much students at every age level really wanna feel purposeful and engaged in their work. 00:06:45.019 --> 00:06:51.548 Um, I'm currently the senior director of education and innovation at Big Bad Boo Studios. 00:06:51.739 --> 00:07:18.685 Big Bad Boo Studios started as a cartoon company, um, with the idea that if every young person had a chance to see themselves depicted in a really positive and purposeful way, um, and They get-- kids got to see stories of people interacting across multicultural groups in a way that felt healthy, that it would change society, and certainly that has happened. 00:07:18.695 --> 00:07:20.585 We've been, um, all over the world. 00:07:20.585 --> 00:07:29.645 We're streamed on Hulu and Disney and, uh, but also we've been in international development, um, sector working. 00:07:29.645 --> 00:07:31.225 Currently, we're in Gaza. 00:07:31.235 --> 00:07:33.505 We have-- We're in the Philippines. 00:07:33.505 --> 00:07:49.275 We've been in Lebanon, Iraq, even Afghanistan, um, helping kids see that even when things are tough, it's possible to imagine yourself being a highly participatory part of your community. 00:07:49.715 --> 00:08:05.695 Um, that work I've now brought into schools, um, and where we work on bringing cartoons as almost like a primary source to young people to get them talking and thinking about what we can do in culture, how we participate, these really human-centered skills. 00:08:06.005 --> 00:08:25.524 But then I've also, my-- the other side of my career is that I've just written a book that's come out in May, um, called Let the Learners Lead, and how we co-create s- culture in schools with, uh, more adolescents to say, "Hey, what is not working in your school, and what can you personally do to change it?" 00:08:25.594 --> 00:08:43.875 So, you know, the, the narrative across everything I do is how do we help young people see that they have a role in this community, in our schools, which can be really laboratories of learning, and then that can extend to their sense of agency and a sense that they matter. 00:08:49.369 --> 00:08:55.499 Mike Caldwell: Typically our life's work or, you know, kinda culminates into whether it's a book or whatever else. 00:08:55.559 --> 00:09:12.879 Um, and but there's oftentimes some, some root or experience that inspired that at, at some point, that really got you on this, this track and ultimately led you to, to focus on this body of work, write the book. 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:25.459 Can you pinpoint something in your, in your career or life that really, like, was the catalyst for moving in this direction, that you felt like this was kinda your, your mission as a, as a leader and as an educator? 00:09:25.459 --> 00:09:34.899 Rachael Thrash: You know, I started teaching because I always felt like, how can kids feel a sense of purpose? 00:09:35.099 --> 00:09:38.099 How can what they're learning in the classroom matter? 00:09:38.579 --> 00:09:50.509 Um, so I don't know if you were ever familiar with the Facing History and Ourselves curriculum, but I started working with it a really long time ago to, to say, "How can we teach kids…" I started as a social studies teacher. 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:55.989 "How can what we teach them help them face inequities in society?" 00:09:56.089 --> 00:10:12.359 And sometime- somewhere along the way, I ended up having a child who learns differently, learns with dyslexia, and, um, there was a moment in my, uh, early parenting where I was told that the school couldn't meet her needs. 00:10:13.208 --> 00:10:24.299 And I was like, "Really? This school can't-- This, this group of really highly educated people in a smaller classroom aren't able to meet my child's needs, who…" 00:10:24.719 --> 00:10:27.489 You know, all kids have wonderful capacity. 00:10:27.969 --> 00:10:48.748 And that started me on a journey of, how can we not only help send a message that every kid matters, but create structures in schools to ensure that every kid is able to show their capacity, other kids are respectful of it? 00:10:49.049 --> 00:10:53.429 And that's been at, at the heart of everything I do in education. 00:10:53.439 --> 00:10:56.299 It's always, um, universal design for learning. 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:11.679 Um, it's about building a strong community, and it's about making sure we're hearing from every kid about how school can treat them better, and they can be part of a collective environment that is supportive of everyone 00:11:17.305 --> 00:11:33.805 Mike Caldwell: So give me an example of s- of your current work that, um, if I'm a school leader, regardless of, of size of school, that would really resonate, like connect with them to, to maybe inspire them to think about something differently. 00:11:33.825 --> 00:11:44.085 Like, can you, can you kind of pinpoint some, some of the work that you're currently doing and, uh, how it's translating to whether it's improved culture or the way we work with, with, with students, with youth? 00:11:44.095 --> 00:11:44.365 Rachael Thrash: Yeah. 00:11:44.365 --> 00:11:56.125 So I'm gonna give you a, an example of working with adolescents, and I'm gonna give you an example of working with elementary kids, 'cause I think we… Developmentally they have different needs, and how we do this can be different. 00:11:56.475 --> 00:12:00.205 Um, I was working in a school in Portland, Maine. 00:12:00.675 --> 00:12:05.405 It is a charter school, uh, for math and science, and it's very project-based. 00:12:05.455 --> 00:12:21.065 It's called, um, Baxter, uh, School for Math and Technology And they had a small cohort of kids in that school that didn't speak English as their primary language, and they were struggling with some of the group work. 00:12:21.105 --> 00:12:23.885 Everything was really project-based and very group work. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:12:29.175 So they were streamlined in all of their classes except their English class and their advisory. 00:12:29.595 --> 00:12:36.545 And their advisor really felt like they were different kids in the class where it was just them. 00:12:36.965 --> 00:12:38.525 They were a little bit more open. 00:12:38.535 --> 00:12:39.725 They were participating. 00:12:39.735 --> 00:12:45.215 And when she would go to their other classes, they just weren't really talking, and they were being excluded from the group work. 00:12:45.645 --> 00:12:55.865 And so she called me in to work with them, and I went through a process with them that I lay out in my book of encouraging them to talk about what is hard at this school. 00:12:55.935 --> 00:12:59.395 When you look around and you say, "What's not working?" what do you notice? 00:12:59.935 --> 00:13:16.675 And these kids who had-- even though they were friends with each other, it turned out that they had never been open about the ways that they were frustrated with the way group work was made, the way that they were respected by the teachers. 00:13:16.685 --> 00:13:22.735 The teachers were trying to help, but they were-- they started to become a little bit more open about what that felt like. 00:13:22.774 --> 00:13:34.964 And they even said, "We don't feel like there's any opportunity to get to know the other kids outside of class. So only in this one place where I'm the least comfortable, the least confident, is where I have an opportunity to talk to other kids." 00:13:35.445 --> 00:13:46.684 And so once they started to talk about that, and then we began a process of thinking really visionarily, what would it look like if you could all feel like you had a sense of belonging? 00:13:46.695 --> 00:13:55.465 And they would say, "Oh, I'd be my real self. I would get to show what I know." And we went through a process of designing for inclusion. 00:13:56.064 --> 00:14:00.444 And what they ultimately decided was, in fact, it wasn't just them. 00:14:00.454 --> 00:14:04.234 Even though they were extreme, other kids were also feeling a little isolated. 00:14:04.585 --> 00:14:14.565 And they noticed that because it was a charter school, there weren't sports, and that it would be really powerful if they were able to bring in some kind of a, a soccer league. 00:14:15.115 --> 00:14:24.294 And through the guidance of working with this advisor and me, they went to the administration and proposed a soccer tournament that they could organize. 00:14:24.894 --> 00:14:33.315 And they worked with the, the, uh, neighborhood organization that had some soccer running in the neighborhood and, and they provided it for the other kids. 00:14:33.935 --> 00:14:37.424 And a month later, these kids had made friends. 00:14:37.685 --> 00:14:38.995 They felt more comfortable. 00:14:39.034 --> 00:14:43.434 By the end of the school year, I heard from their teacher they were participating more in class. 00:14:43.974 --> 00:15:05.151 And it was Initiating a process of being open that school isn't working for everybody, that there are reasons, that they're not-- it's not mysterious why it isn't working, and there are places that you can't solve for the whole problem, but you can start to find projects that you have the power to jump into. 00:15:05.281 --> 00:15:14.901 And the thing that was-- when I talked to them later, what they were most shocked by was that the administrators cared, and the other kids were happy to have them make a change. 00:15:15.281 --> 00:15:22.391 And then they felt like they were heroes, and they felt this sense of like, "My voice matters." Um, so that's one example. 00:15:22.401 --> 00:15:31.151 My other example is with the little ones and the younger students, um, when we have gone into classrooms, and I just did this very recently. 00:15:31.151 --> 00:15:37.781 I was working with a school in British Columbia, and we brought in some of our, our cartoon curriculum. 00:15:37.811 --> 00:15:42.951 And cartoons are fantastic because nobody isn't interested, right? 00:15:43.011 --> 00:15:52.190 Like all the kids, even the wiggliest kids or the kids who normally when you're like, "Let's talk about classroom culture," they're gonna, they're gonna kind of put up a wall and be like, "I'm not interested in this." 00:15:52.581 --> 00:16:02.091 If they see a cartoon character having some of the same issues that they have as a child, they suddenly wanna jump in and talk about it. 00:16:02.381 --> 00:16:08.040 And once you unleash that interest in talking about it, then you can't get them to stop. 00:16:08.461 --> 00:16:29.181 Um, so for example, I was show-- we were showing them a cartoon about-- One of our cartoons is about a 12-year-old judge named Judge Jodi, and Judge Jodi has set up a courtroom in her backyard that she, you know, litigates with a, a cardboard box, and people from the neighborhood bring in their issues. 00:16:29.181 --> 00:16:35.201 And there was an issue that one kid brought in that he was suspected of being a vampire. 00:16:35.210 --> 00:16:45.811 He was running for class president, and another girl had started a rumor that, you know, "Have you ever seen him out in the daylight? He definitely doesn't like garlic. I'm just saying," right? 00:16:45.831 --> 00:16:48.431 So the kids are giggling because this is silly. 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.230 But by the end of the episode, we're asking them to talk about rumors. 00:16:53.231 --> 00:16:54.500 Have they ever heard a rumor? 00:16:54.561 --> 00:17:09.391 So they're contributing, "Yeah, sometimes people say something that I'm not true-- it's not necessarily true." And then that continues the conversation about some of the norms we wanna set up in our classroom, how we wanna treat each other. 00:17:09.981 --> 00:17:24.411 And I think what connects the two stories, uh, is that kids actually want to discuss the hard stuff that's happening in their lives, but oftentimes we as adults don't know how to tee that up in a way that isn't awkward. 00:17:24.891 --> 00:17:25.540 You know what I mean? 00:17:25.570 --> 00:17:30.611 Like, kids are like, "Ugh, you, you're, you're not quite connecting with us." 00:17:30.641 --> 00:17:40.770 So if we have the tools and the resources to begin the conversation in a purposeful way, kids really do wanna help us br- build a healthy culture. 00:17:44.057 --> 00:17:45.107 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:45.867 --> 00:17:46.957 Why do you think that's so hard? 00:17:46.957 --> 00:17:53.947 It seems so, um, simple at the, on the surface, and also at the same time so important, right? 00:17:54.567 --> 00:18:01.191 But yet I don't think it happens that often or, and certainly and maybe not in the way that you described. 00:18:01.221 --> 00:18:13.301 What's-- what kind of barriers do we need to remove or, or different ways of thinking about it that would, I guess, create more of those environments across our schools? 00:18:13.801 --> 00:18:13.951 What 00:18:13.951 --> 00:18:14.139 Rachael Thrash: suggestions do you have? 00:18:14.139 --> 00:18:27.101 So one of the reasons I think it's so hard is because we have this artificial notion in schools that adults are in charge, and when we… It goes back to that when I, when-- the rapid fire word of should. 00:18:27.801 --> 00:18:33.281 I think that when we come in and we tell kids, "These are the behaviors you should be using. 00:18:33.521 --> 00:18:43.301 This is the rule book of how to behave in school," then we give them this sense that they don't have any autonomy. 00:18:43.541 --> 00:18:58.631 And then we didactically try to teach these really important things like empathy or how to be respectful of someone else or appreciate, um, someone else's perspective. 00:18:59.571 --> 00:19:04.971 But all of it comes into this lecturing at kids, and it doesn't feel authentic to them. 00:19:04.991 --> 00:19:15.281 Oftentimes they feel like, "Well, the adult knows that, but they don't know what I'm going through." And kids need to be part of the creator of whatever's going on. 00:19:15.911 --> 00:19:27.471 Um, they need to be invited into… I always like to start my classes back when I was teaching by disabusing them of the notion that I was in charge of the classroom. 00:19:27.580 --> 00:19:37.051 I was like, "Listen, I hate to tell you this, but if you all decided to stop listening to me, it would be over." Like, "I, I can't control you. 00:19:37.051 --> 00:19:42.541 You can control you, but you also have a responsibility for the person next to you. 00:19:42.860 --> 00:19:59.551 You actually control if it's a healthy learning environment for them." Um, so I think being really transparent with kids about culture, community, the capacity to learn in this classroom is something we all have to agree to. 00:20:00.141 --> 00:20:06.300 And when we break that agreement to each other, that's something we have to investigate. 00:20:06.570 --> 00:20:21.361 And taking the time to investigate that is also something that I've noticed in the past is teachers will set up classroom norms in the beginning of the year but then never reference them again, and it just goes back to this age-old the teacher's in charge. 00:20:21.801 --> 00:20:25.140 Where I think when we flip that narrative and we say, "Hey, you know what? 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:27.930 I'm noticing that learning isn't working here. 00:20:28.201 --> 00:20:28.721 Why? 00:20:29.281 --> 00:20:31.300 What are the elements that aren't working? 00:20:31.370 --> 00:20:33.020 Is it me as the teacher? 00:20:33.100 --> 00:20:34.580 Did I deliver something wrong? 00:20:34.591 --> 00:20:37.110 Is it that we're distracting each other? 00:20:37.341 --> 00:20:55.431 How can we realign?" And putting that back on the kids to be part of that, um, that responsibility, 'cause it is theirs, and don't we want them to acknowledge it and practice it now so that they can build healthier communities their whole lives 00:21:00.473 --> 00:21:09.803 Mike Caldwell: So I would imagine I have some listeners that are hearing what you're saying, and, you know, in a perfect world, yes. 00:21:09.863 --> 00:21:11.303 Yes, yes, yes, and yes. 00:21:11.633 --> 00:21:22.463 But there, but there's listeners are going, "Yeah, but you know what my, some of my students really wanna do is just stare at TikTok videos all day, and they don't wanna do algebra." 00:21:22.923 --> 00:21:33.033 And so… And, but you want me to have them create the, you know, rules of the school and, and design the culture, but that's what they care about. 00:21:33.033 --> 00:21:48.103 So how do you counter, like this, that what you're describing sounds a little Pollyanna, and then there's the reality of what a classroom needs or looks like or what a school looks like and… 00:21:48.833 --> 00:21:50.493 Or is there something in, in the middle? 00:21:50.513 --> 00:21:58.743 How do you, how do you balance kinda that, um, counter, I guess, voice that says, "That's all great in theory, but-" 00:21:58.993 --> 00:22:00.913 Rachael Thrash: That's not how it works in the real world "… that's 00:22:00.913 --> 00:22:01.233 Mike Caldwell: not how, that's not how it 00:22:01.233 --> 00:22:06.342 Rachael Thrash: really works." Um, what I would say is there's always going to be kids who are really struggling, right? 00:22:06.373 --> 00:22:15.282 There are kids who, beyond the TikTok kid, there are kids who really h- their nervous system has it so it's very, very difficult to be in that classroom. 00:22:15.763 --> 00:22:20.533 And, and you, again, I think some transparency around that. 00:22:21.073 --> 00:22:30.263 Um, you, you go to that kid and you say, "I notice how difficult it is for you to manage all of this time sitting here learning. 00:22:30.673 --> 00:22:31.743 How can we break that up? 00:22:31.963 --> 00:22:39.473 What can you do to, to go 10 minutes that you're not watching a TikTok video?" Okay. 00:22:39.473 --> 00:22:41.433 So we made it 10 minutes. 00:22:41.923 --> 00:22:45.382 Everybody in the world likes to be recognized for their achievement. 00:22:46.083 --> 00:22:57.253 How do we find how that kid can feel recognized and begin to build back a sense that they're not an antagonistic presence in the class? 00:22:57.853 --> 00:23:07.482 Um, and there's a wonderful book, um, Connection Over Compliance, that's one of my favorite reads by Lori Desaultais, I think is her last name. 00:23:07.923 --> 00:23:30.262 Um, but she really talks about how we are built for connection, and if you've developed a relationship, I think a lot of this, um, I should back up and say before we build classroom community, you better start with connection, and you better start with getting to know each person as a human so that they feel validated. 00:23:30.482 --> 00:23:32.973 Talking to them to say, "You know, what do you care about? 00:23:32.992 --> 00:23:35.423 Why do you wanna watch that TikTok video so badly? 00:23:35.423 --> 00:23:36.172 What's in there? 00:23:36.643 --> 00:23:38.273 Why are we here as a group? 00:23:38.562 --> 00:23:41.713 Is there anything you wanna get out of this algebra class? 00:23:42.042 --> 00:23:55.662 What are the things that are hard for you?" All of those openings for engagement and feeling recognized make a huge difference in kids wanting to contribute to a healthy community. 00:23:59.329 --> 00:24:00.079 Mike Caldwell: Absolutely. 00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:00.279 Yeah. 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.249 What, what you're saying resonates. 00:24:02.249 --> 00:24:14.899 I recall as a, as a principal, one of the big focuses, uh, for us was that every student was, um, noticed, named, and known, and it has to start there, right? 00:24:14.939 --> 00:24:25.239 And that they feel noticed, and you know their names, and they know that the adults know their name, and they also know them, know who they are beyond, um, the Mrs. 00:24:25.239 --> 00:24:27.309 Jones algebra student or whoever else. 00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:33.949 It's like wh- what, what, what more, you know, what… There's so much more to each, each child that you really need to try to get to know. 00:24:33.969 --> 00:24:41.529 Um, and then that obviously helps in relationships and connectivity and then ultimately building community as well. 00:24:41.569 --> 00:24:43.159 So I love it. 00:24:43.849 --> 00:24:48.121 You recently built, wrote a book, so, and it's launching, or did it launch last summer? 00:24:48.121 --> 00:24:48.325 Last month. 00:24:48.325 --> 00:24:48.589 Last, last month. 00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:48.979 Yes, 00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:51.299 Rachael Thrash: came out May, May 2026. 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:51.529 It's out. 00:24:51.829 --> 00:24:51.879 It's out. 00:24:51.879 --> 00:24:52.699 Very fresh off the press 00:24:55.801 --> 00:24:56.531 It is my first book Nice. 00:24:56.571 --> 00:24:57.451 Mike Caldwell: Is this your first book? 00:24:59.833 --> 00:25:00.173 Okay. 00:25:00.173 --> 00:25:01.923 So what inspired you to write it, and a little bit about it? 00:25:01.923 --> 00:25:12.603 Rachael Thrash: What inspired me to write it is I was working with-- I, I had been at the International School of Helsinki, and I oversaw all of student leadership and, uh, student engagement. 00:25:12.933 --> 00:25:24.673 And I was leaving the school, and we had done a lot of work with the student leadership, and so they were, they were part of so many different initiatives, and it was a wide swath of children. 00:25:25.073 --> 00:25:43.033 Um, so they were helping adults figure out, you know, how to build an annex, but they were also weighing in on what the next field trip was gonna be, and they were also running BIPOC listening circles all through their own… You know, we invited them in, but it was very much based on their own initiative. 00:25:43.383 --> 00:25:47.223 And that had been a real change from a traditional student council model. 00:25:47.783 --> 00:26:02.833 Um, and our kids were really excited about it, and they wanted to make sure that in the transition to new leadership in the school, and as some of them were graduating out, that they captured what they had done in-- They wanted to make it somewhat of a guidebook. 00:26:03.083 --> 00:26:10.253 So these kids start looking through, okay, well, what are constitution, student leadership constitutions that could serve as a model? 00:26:10.562 --> 00:26:15.642 And they're looking through… I mean, it was before, just slightly before AI, so they didn't just look it up. 00:26:15.643 --> 00:26:18.183 And they're looking at, they're googling different models. 00:26:18.492 --> 00:26:32.572 And this one girl, who has been very involved for three years in student leadership, starts to notice this pattern in all of these student council constitutions, where you have to have a grade point average of three point five. 00:26:33.073 --> 00:26:35.663 Oh, you have to have a grade point average of three point five. 00:26:35.702 --> 00:26:37.662 You have to be one of the excellent students. 00:26:38.062 --> 00:26:46.093 She's like, "I wouldn't be able to serve in the vast majority of these student councils." And yet she was highly involved. 00:26:46.803 --> 00:26:53.913 And I think that we have the-- And this was among many aha moments, but we laughed. 00:26:53.943 --> 00:27:05.772 Like, I was able to laugh with those kids and say, "Why should serving your community be a privilege and not an opportunity?" And we have so many barriers. 00:27:05.802 --> 00:27:17.613 We love to think about student leadership as a simulation, whether it's MUN or it's speech and debate or it's student council elections. 00:27:18.033 --> 00:27:29.369 It's all simulation of things that are happening in the real world, but it's not actually changing anything in the school for the k- Need it most. 00:27:29.749 --> 00:27:37.079 And oftentimes it sets up a system in which we're only hearing for the kids from whom school is really working. 00:27:37.709 --> 00:27:42.689 Those kids who are already popular, those kids who already are good at sports or good at academics. 00:27:43.009 --> 00:27:45.619 And so what makes us ever change anything? 00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:48.859 What makes us ever say, "You know what, kids? 00:27:48.959 --> 00:27:52.709 Help tell me as an educator what's not working for you. 00:27:53.029 --> 00:28:16.779 Be courageous to stand up for the person next to you." And so that's why I wrote the book, because I think that we have really antiquated systems of student leadership that are primarily about writing it on a college resume so that you can say, "I was picked instead of someone else," instead of, "I changed the community for the better." 00:28:20.697 --> 00:28:21.437 Mike Caldwell: I love that. 00:28:21.937 --> 00:28:34.089 So is this book, um, targeted towards kind of the student body, ASB kind of, um, program leader? 00:28:34.209 --> 00:28:36.889 Is it a s- book for principals? 00:28:36.909 --> 00:28:37.789 Is it parents? 00:28:37.949 --> 00:28:41.939 What, who's, who's the audience, and what are they gonna walk away from this book 00:28:41.939 --> 00:28:41.949 Rachael Thrash: with? 00:28:42.009 --> 00:28:42.249 Yeah. 00:28:42.309 --> 00:28:46.509 So the book, the audience is, uh, parents are a very secondary audience. 00:28:46.569 --> 00:29:09.999 I would love for them to read it, but the real audience is, um, student or leaders, principals, um, educators who are leaders in the community, student council advisors, advisors and teachers, and those people who are looking to help kids find their voice now so that they can make a change in their community. 00:29:10.309 --> 00:29:26.169 Um, and so the book includes ways to help kids feel a sense of responsibility for the community at large, not just for their own resume or for service projects that are gonna make them look good. 00:29:26.209 --> 00:29:35.649 But how can I actually change the school so it's better not only for me, but maybe for a kid who really doesn't feel a sense of purpose here? 00:29:36.149 --> 00:29:38.849 And I can see that take place. 00:29:39.009 --> 00:29:43.709 Um, the book includes a lot of tools for engaging, first connecting, right? 00:29:43.809 --> 00:29:51.549 Because we just talked about unless you're connecting with your students and kids are connecting with each other and feeling safe, they're not gonna try to make a change. 00:29:51.589 --> 00:29:53.089 They're not gonna speak up for anyone. 00:29:53.129 --> 00:29:59.659 And that's also the work we do at Big Bad Boo, that creating a safe space to talk about how school is working. 00:30:00.209 --> 00:30:06.029 And then it goes into how do we then start to problem solve through design thinking? 00:30:06.109 --> 00:30:07.949 How do we say what could be better? 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:10.049 And let's envision. 00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:15.599 I think sometimes our learners tend to be more traditional than our teachers about what's possible. 00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:27.429 'Cause they've seen school depicted in TV, they've heard from their parents, and they're like, "No, you know, there's one student council president, and we should all vote." And when you say to them, "Why? 00:30:27.989 --> 00:30:46.449 Why can't everyone have a voice?" And you push them to think about what could happen if every kid felt responsible for this community, then they begin to design for, "Oh, well, then everyone would feel like they had a place to eat at lunch, and lunch wouldn't be a really awkward place." 00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:57.529 Um, kids who were new to the community could feel like someone was actually there to help them out, and they'll help you think about the little details that would improve the culture. 00:30:57.569 --> 00:30:58.789 Um, and so that's part of the book. 00:30:58.889 --> 00:31:05.509 It, it helps go through the design process and provides tools for teachers to begin those discussions purposefully. 00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:15.929 And then I think oftentimes what happens with, um, any kind of student initiative is it's very difficult to get it from the idea to actually happening. 00:31:16.309 --> 00:31:17.929 Kids aren't project managers. 00:31:18.709 --> 00:31:23.709 Oftentimes teachers aren't, or you're a principal, and you have 40 kids who wanna do something. 00:31:23.789 --> 00:31:25.129 How are you supposed to help them? 00:31:25.625 --> 00:31:33.995 So I've broken down, um, the steps of building change so that kids are looking to what do I actually want to accomplish? 00:31:34.065 --> 00:31:36.585 Who are the people I need to talk to? 00:31:36.985 --> 00:31:39.495 Um, is there a room I need to reserve? 00:31:39.535 --> 00:31:48.745 You know, some of those really detail-oriented things that they need to partner with an adult in the community and think through all the steps. 00:31:48.745 --> 00:31:57.065 And that allows the educators to serve more as mentors than just either step back or step in too much. 00:31:57.095 --> 00:31:59.845 It, it helps think through a project. 00:32:00.245 --> 00:32:04.595 Um, and then ultimately, there's even tools for presenting the project in the community. 00:32:04.615 --> 00:32:14.705 So if you're gonna give kids… If you're gonna tell kids that they have a chance to change something, you need to give them a little bit of a scaffold for what is it, who's your audience? 00:32:14.885 --> 00:32:16.685 Who are you… Are you going to the board? 00:32:16.995 --> 00:32:19.605 Are you going to the middle school assembly? 00:32:19.945 --> 00:32:23.715 How are you gonna sculpt your message in a way that resonates with them? 00:32:24.155 --> 00:32:33.265 And of course, all of these are just really good practice in how to organize purposeful change and how to engage with community. 00:32:37.017 --> 00:32:37.437 Mike Caldwell: I love it. 00:32:37.457 --> 00:33:01.237 So you have, um, within the book, tools, um, templates if you will, that the maybe adult leader within, within the school can work with the students to guide them to actually move from, I guess, nothing to idea to actual action, um, that'll hopefully make an impact within the school. 00:33:01.247 --> 00:33:01.527 That's- 00:33:01.597 --> 00:33:02.027 Rachael Thrash: Absolutely 00:33:02.027 --> 00:33:02.367 built within the book. 00:33:02.377 --> 00:33:02.707 Yes. 00:33:02.957 --> 00:33:11.867 And it starts from the very beginning of- Yeah … if you only have six kids who are willing to do anything in the school, i- there's a tool called Expand the Circle. 00:33:12.297 --> 00:33:18.087 And so it encourages the educators and the kids who are already involved to say, "Hey, let's look around. 00:33:18.297 --> 00:33:20.877 Who's part of student leadership and who isn't? 00:33:21.307 --> 00:33:29.047 And what are maybe some of the barriers that are keeping some kids out?" And that's a great question to be asking kids. 00:33:29.387 --> 00:33:38.827 Um, they'll bring up things like, "Well, you know, a lot of kids don't wanna give up their recess." Well, is that the only time we can give an opportunity for student leadership? 00:33:38.857 --> 00:33:42.607 If you really have all the energy in the world, you can't be a student leader? 00:33:43.007 --> 00:33:45.916 So is there a way we could include their voice? 00:33:46.337 --> 00:33:49.186 Um, is it because this friend group isn't represented? 00:33:49.297 --> 00:33:51.126 Could we invite them in? 00:33:51.587 --> 00:34:01.146 Um, and really helping kids recognize that sometimes it's an invitation that's done with intention that expands a circle. 00:34:01.447 --> 00:34:04.147 And that's also to help educators recognize that. 00:34:04.147 --> 00:34:27.826 I have so many examples of going to a child who didn't show any proclivity towards student leadership, and I tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Hey, you know, Philip, I know you're not the kid who always gets his work in, and I know that perhaps you're, you're not feeling as included by your, your peers, but I also know you have a lot of really cool opinions. 00:34:27.886 --> 00:34:36.426 Would you just come and give me, like, be a little bit open?" And that invitation to come in is so rewarding to kids. 00:34:36.666 --> 00:34:40.657 And they might tell you no 20 times, but then there's an initiative they're interested in. 00:34:41.136 --> 00:34:52.206 And if the door is open, and if we're not so structured that it has to begin at the beginning of the year, end at the end with an election, we can start to bring in a lot of other voices 00:34:56.395 --> 00:35:05.795 Mike Caldwell: I'm curious, have you thought about writing a companion book that's ver- that's specific to the student audience? 00:35:05.875 --> 00:35:06.185 Hmm. 00:35:06.215 --> 00:35:07.255 So something that 00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:23.509 Whether it's an independent student that just wants to make change in their school and doesn't know how to start or doesn't even know, like, how do I, how do I influence the adults, uh, the adults that have the keys to the school? 00:35:23.969 --> 00:35:47.829 Um, or a book that an advisory group of students could read as a book study, um, to help guide their thinking and in- inspire them because sometimes they wanna make the change, but they just don't know how, and if they don't have the adult that's leading it and a companion book to help that adult, sometimes it's difficult. 00:35:48.479 --> 00:35:54.499 I would love to s- maybe it, it exists, but given your work, I would love for you to go write another book. 00:35:54.499 --> 00:35:54.869 It's okay. 00:35:54.969 --> 00:35:55.499 Rachael Thrash: It's okay. 00:35:55.509 --> 00:36:01.079 You know, I mean, you've wrote one, but- I, I love, I love that idea … that was, that was, that was so last month You know, I'll tell you one thing about the book. 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:13.739 Um, the, the designer who brought my tools to life was a former student, and she actually is a student at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and she worked with me in student leadership. 00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:23.169 So to your point a little bit about- So cool … the tools, they are intended to be written for both a student and adult audience. 00:36:23.448 --> 00:36:26.479 So a lot of the tools kids can initiate on th- their own. 00:36:26.488 --> 00:36:29.969 Like one of them is how do you run a meeting with purpose? 00:36:30.279 --> 00:36:31.708 'Cause kids don't know how to do that, right? 00:36:31.709 --> 00:36:34.509 We, we throw them in, and we say, "Have a meeting." 00:36:34.539 --> 00:36:37.569 A lot of adults don't even know how to run a meeting with purpose. 00:36:37.939 --> 00:36:46.908 So it helps them break down like, "Okay, everybody share your idea now. Let's do a little brainstorm." There's even a tool for what do we do when we have disagreement? 00:36:47.109 --> 00:36:51.069 Like, how do we come to some collective decisions? 00:36:51.448 --> 00:37:02.648 Um, and working with this young person who had just been in student leadership and continued in university, she was able to say, "No, no, no, that's not how students think. 00:37:02.948 --> 00:37:06.738 You need to do it this way." Or she would say, "Oh, this is great. 00:37:06.799 --> 00:37:08.319 I wish we had had this. 00:37:08.369 --> 00:37:27.389 I, I see the kernels of where you were doing this with us, but we didn't…" Because a lot of this stuff is practical, and a lot of teachers could create it, but when do you have time to do that, right? So having a template to work with and even to work with your kids, "Is this gonna help us? 00:37:27.389 --> 00:37:38.689 How do we improve it?" I think goes a far way toward engaging discussion, having people feel like they have some say, uh, know where to get started. 00:37:38.899 --> 00:37:40.879 But I also love the idea of a student companion. 00:37:40.908 --> 00:37:56.418 My next book actually I'm really considering writing it on siblings 'cause I think that that's kind of the co-creation in a family of how does everyone have a voice regardless of who you are in the family and how you wanna show up. 00:37:59.649 --> 00:38:00.159 Mike Caldwell: I like that. 00:38:00.529 --> 00:38:00.869 All right. 00:38:00.879 --> 00:38:00.899 Yeah. 00:38:00.909 --> 00:38:02.029 Now you have two books to write. 00:38:02.209 --> 00:38:02.269 I'll get 50. 00:38:02.269 --> 00:38:02.489 All right. 00:38:03.069 --> 00:38:03.959 That's, that's great. 00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:16.089 Well, as we- we're kinda rounding out, um, I wanna make sure that we leave, which y- we already have, but you know, real concrete, practical application for our leaders that are listening. 00:38:16.089 --> 00:38:26.983 So for tho- that principal that's listening today, and they wanna begin co-creating culture with students tomorrow, um You know, where should they start? 00:38:27.003 --> 00:38:51.703 What do you think is kind of the first big step that, or even small step, that they should take to really do that and go beyond, yeah, we hear their voice, we take surveys, we ask questions in the hall, but really move to students having, um, yeah, that, that ownership and, and impact in what, how our schools operate, culture, everything else that you talked about? 00:38:51.703 --> 00:38:51.713 I 00:38:51.713 --> 00:38:59.143 Rachael Thrash: think it starts with proving to students that what they are suggesting is going to make an impact. 00:38:59.173 --> 00:39:04.813 Because to your point about we survey them, kids are surveyed over and over again. 00:39:05.273 --> 00:39:18.573 But when… I don't know if I've ever felt like I answered a question on a survey and then came into the space where maybe that opinion was represented or not, that it made me feel proud. 00:39:18.933 --> 00:39:41.362 It doesn't make me feel like a, a valued member of the community to certainly, to just be one of many who said, "I would prefer more chicken at lunch." Um, so I think that as a, a leader or a teacher, and a teacher is a leader, of course, think about something that you actually could use student opinion to improve. 00:39:41.883 --> 00:39:43.142 And start small. 00:39:43.663 --> 00:40:00.423 Bring in, invite in a body of students and say, "I want your help in designing this better." And then make sure that it's really evident how their opinion made a difference so that they feel like it was valuable. 00:40:00.703 --> 00:40:04.433 And I would also say don't make it a whole year initiative, right? 00:40:04.473 --> 00:40:11.402 Make it short, make it clear, announce it to people, make them feel proud, and be radical. 00:40:11.563 --> 00:40:13.692 Choose a, a different group of kids. 00:40:13.773 --> 00:40:19.393 We have a tendency to go back to the same four kids over and over again 'cause that's who we trust. 00:40:19.843 --> 00:40:22.172 I had a, a student say the most heartbreaking thing. 00:40:22.172 --> 00:40:28.502 I was working in a school, and he was designing a committee of people to change something, I think it was tech policy. 00:40:28.943 --> 00:40:33.362 And he told me that we were going to only choose kids who got all A's or more. 00:40:33.462 --> 00:40:34.593 And I was like, "Why? 00:40:34.662 --> 00:40:44.242 Why those kids?" And he said, "Those are the only people the teachers will trust." I was like, "That isn't true," but that's what the kids believe, so we have to break that perception. 00:40:44.242 --> 00:40:46.363 So what is your l- small initiative? 00:40:46.363 --> 00:40:48.362 Is it the way that the bikes are set up? 00:40:48.363 --> 00:41:04.592 I mean, it doesn't have to be the most major thing, but invite those kids in and then show that it happened and start that process of integrating student voice purposefully in the way that school shows up and people know that they made a change. 00:41:04.843 --> 00:41:06.893 And then they feel like it matters that they're there 00:41:10.433 --> 00:41:11.083 Mike Caldwell: Absolutely. 00:41:11.693 --> 00:41:21.793 Yeah, you reminded me, like, one of my last three or so years as, as a school principal, we had this open space, and I was at, at a Catholic high school at the time. 00:41:22.353 --> 00:41:29.823 We had this open space that was just dirt, and, um, I had this vision of creating this outdoor garden space. 00:41:31.233 --> 00:41:36.033 And, you know, I can mow my lawn, but I'm not a professional gardener by any m- means. 00:41:36.073 --> 00:41:44.291 Um, and so we went to the, I guess it was the Um, I'm tr- trying to think. 00:41:44.301 --> 00:41:57.611 It was one of our classes that, um, I'm, I'm blanking out on whi- which class it was, and we did like a three-week design challenge, and they put it-- we put them in teams of four in this one particular class. 00:41:57.651 --> 00:42:03.161 Like, each took a stab a- as a team to design the space and what it, what it could look like. 00:42:03.881 --> 00:42:20.311 And, uh, we ended up… I mean, all, all the designs were, were unique and amazing, but we, we ended up taking aspects of each one of them, building it into the plan, putting out for, you know, proposal to get, you know, to get the work done and, and all the things. 00:42:20.311 --> 00:42:23.821 And it was such a fun process, and the kids loved it. 00:42:23.821 --> 00:42:27.781 And, and they were also part of-- they wanted to be part of actually building it as well. 00:42:27.781 --> 00:42:32.661 So they went beyond designing it and really wanted to be part, part of it beyond that. 00:42:32.721 --> 00:42:50.201 And then it e- it ended up kind of cascading from there, where we got some of our religious classes involved, even our engineering classes involved, you know, on the tech-- uh, not on the software tech side, but on the, you know, on the more of the structure, kind of building some different things for the, for the space. 00:42:50.550 --> 00:42:55.641 And it ended up being a really cool, collaborative kind of experience. 00:42:55.641 --> 00:43:08.701 And it's one of my… You know, when-- as you're talking about, that's what, what resonates with me and how rewarding it was for me as a leader just to help kind of bring them to the table and then just let them see where w- see where it went. 00:43:08.751 --> 00:43:15.351 You know, let-- l- leverage their ac- their, their, their brains and, and their passions and, and it was, it was so fun. 00:43:15.401 --> 00:43:15.930 I loved it. 00:43:16.131 --> 00:43:19.541 So thank you for, uh, inspiring that and also 00:43:20.091 --> 00:43:20.465 Rachael Thrash: bringing that memory to life for me. 00:43:20.465 --> 00:43:20.520 Oh, absolutely. 00:43:20.520 --> 00:43:27.171 And I love to think about those kids, like all the learning they would pursue once they're like, "Oh, what I'm doing matters. 00:43:27.471 --> 00:43:32.451 What I'm doing is gonna have a long-term impact here." So now I'm really curious, right? 00:43:32.811 --> 00:43:40.071 Like, and, and even, I mean, uh, you know- Yeah … we've gone a long time without mentioning AI, and this is the field of education, so how can we? 00:43:40.071 --> 00:43:43.651 But wouldn't-- isn't that a great use of it purposefully? 00:43:43.901 --> 00:43:44.221 You know? 00:43:44.221 --> 00:43:50.420 And then they're using it because they're pursuing something, not because they're trying to copy or replace. 00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:53.790 And, and then they can check the knowledge of it. 00:43:53.790 --> 00:43:55.370 Did it actually work or not? 00:43:55.391 --> 00:43:57.941 So like, how are we engaging? 00:43:58.521 --> 00:44:08.730 That's why I think culture and community is so inspirational for kids, because it what, it's what impacts their sense of, do I wanna be at school tomorrow? 00:44:09.111 --> 00:44:15.531 And if they don't wanna be at school, all the research shows that they're not gonna do well academically. 00:44:15.641 --> 00:44:17.661 It's gonna-- it's the most important thing. 00:44:17.661 --> 00:44:24.751 I, in fact, read a study the other day that even humor is so significant in kids' academic achievement. 00:44:24.941 --> 00:44:35.360 Because if you feel light and engaged and connected, but how do we connect with other people unless we're doing something purposefully together and we're supporting each other? 00:44:38.425 --> 00:44:39.435 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, 100%. 00:44:40.555 --> 00:44:42.095 Well, maybe last couple questions. 00:44:42.165 --> 00:44:45.045 Um, you've been in education for a long time. 00:44:45.045 --> 00:44:46.795 What gives you hope right now for 00:44:46.795 --> 00:44:47.170 Rachael Thrash: the future of education? 00:44:47.170 --> 00:44:48.085 Oh, so much gives me hope. 00:44:48.085 --> 00:45:08.045 My, my young-- my two children give me hope because they are so curious about how we can harness what's happening in technology, how young people are getting so sick of these top-down structures, and they're coming together in ways that are more purposeful. 00:45:08.075 --> 00:45:42.705 Um, so what gives me hope is if there was ever a time… For a very long time, progressives in education have been saying, "Let's move away from high-stakes testing, from ranking kids." Well, a lot of the technology is making that feel pretty silly right now, and so we-- if we're going to give kids vigorous learning opportunities, and I'm shifting away from rigorous into vigorous, w- it needs to be personalized, and it needs to adjust to kids and help them feel like it matters. 00:45:42.775 --> 00:45:54.864 And so I think we're waking up finally as an industry to build those things, and it's gonna be hard, but it's the good, exciting work that bonds you with the kids you're working with, bonds you with your colleagues. 00:45:55.184 --> 00:46:03.754 And you called me a Pollyanna earlier in the podcast, I am one, but for quite good reason, and I think there's some good research backing when kids… 00:46:05.815 --> 00:46:06.105 No, I'm just teasing. 00:46:06.105 --> 00:46:08.165 To clarify- I'm teasing … I didn't call you a 00:46:08.165 --> 00:46:08.465 Mike Caldwell: Pollyanna. 00:46:09.025 --> 00:46:11.644 I said there's a hypothetical listener 00:46:11.645 --> 00:46:14.974 Rachael Thrash: that might think this idea is- It's true … Pollyanna-ish, but, uh- I call myself a Pollyanna because I've seen- No, I got you. 00:46:14.985 --> 00:46:21.995 … extraordinary things happen with kids when they feel like they have a say in what they're, they're learning to do matters. 00:46:22.014 --> 00:46:25.024 And it isn't just an artifice, but it's real work 00:46:27.865 --> 00:46:28.935 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. 00:46:29.675 --> 00:46:38.505 Well, we're on the Transformative Principal podcast, and I can't let a, a guest go without answering the final question, um, that my predecessor Jethro Jones always asked. 00:46:38.545 --> 00:46:41.715 Um, what does it mean to you to be a transformative principal or transformative leader? 00:46:41.715 --> 00:46:41.725 A 00:46:41.725 --> 00:47:03.725 Rachael Thrash: transformative leader is somebody who turns to the community to say, "We're in it together, and all of us need to be part of moving forward. So how-- what's your role? How can I empower you to be part of this?" Um, because I think that's being honest about who has capacity to make change, not one person. 00:47:04.275 --> 00:47:13.125 Um, and a transformative leader is vulnerable about the things they need help with so that there's space for other people to move in and shine as well. 00:47:17.335 --> 00:47:17.955 Mike Caldwell: Well said. 00:47:18.755 --> 00:47:19.995 So your book is out. 00:47:20.025 --> 00:47:22.635 Um, why don't you tell the audience one more time the title 00:47:23.505 --> 00:47:24.565 Rachael Thrash: of your book and where they can find it? 00:47:24.565 --> 00:47:28.415 It's Let the Learners Lead: Empowering Student Voice to Co-Create School Culture. 00:47:28.845 --> 00:47:37.175 Uh, they can find it on Routledge, where it was published, on Amazon, um, Books-A-Million, Walmart, you know, all those websites 00:47:40.751 --> 00:47:42.321 They can find me- And where can they find you? 00:47:42.331 --> 00:47:44.081 … I am at Big Bad Boo Studios. 00:47:44.111 --> 00:47:53.191 I am the director of education and innovation, but I also have my own website, cocreateschools.com, and I'm on LinkedIn, Rachel Thrash. 00:47:53.471 --> 00:47:57.631 Though my, my name is spelled R-A-C-H-A-E-L, which is always confusing 00:48:01.625 --> 00:48:01.955 Mike Caldwell: Yep. 00:48:02.005 --> 00:48:05.655 Well, we'll put all that information- … not yet until it's confusing. 00:48:05.655 --> 00:48:16.615 But yes, thank you for sharing that information, and we will include that, all of those things in the show notes so they can find your book, and they can reach out to you if they'd like, uh, further dialogue on this topic. 00:48:16.615 --> 00:48:22.735 So Rachel, thank you so much for being part of this Transformative Principal podcast episode today. 00:48:22.735 --> 00:48:25.615 It's been a joy getting to know you and learning about your work. 00:48:25.735 --> 00:48:25.795 Rachael Thrash: Thank you, Mike. 00:48:25.795 --> 00:48:25.825 So thank you. 00:48:25.825 --> 00:48:27.375 Been all my ple- pleasure 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:28.190 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:48:28.220 --> 00:48:29.640 For our listeners, join us next time. 00:48:29.930 --> 00:48:30.720 Appreciate you listening