WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.050 Travis Bader: Today's episode is a powerful conversation, exploring 00:00:16.050 --> 00:00:20.370 profound success alongside significant personal challenges, 00:00:20.940 --> 00:00:24.615 delving deep into mental health and sensitive topics like self-harm. 00:00:24.875 --> 00:00:29.070 You'll hear the journey of a remarkable individual whose experiences offer 00:00:29.130 --> 00:00:33.540 insights and hope highlighting the strength it takes to rebuild 00:00:33.570 --> 00:00:35.670 and reclaim life from adversity. 00:00:36.780 --> 00:00:41.280 If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal ideation or thoughts of 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.900 self harm, we've included links to helpful resources in the episode description. 00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:52.230 Being proactive is far better than the alternative before we dive in. 00:00:52.589 --> 00:00:55.710 With the increasing importance of supporting Canadian businesses, 00:00:55.949 --> 00:00:59.220 I'd like to acknowledge some outstanding Canadian companies who 00:00:59.220 --> 00:01:01.140 partner with Silver Corps outdoors. 00:01:01.800 --> 00:01:05.910 These businesses generously provide exclusive discounts to Silver Corps 00:01:05.910 --> 00:01:10.770 Club members, including Armament Technology from Nova Scotia, ook Cases 00:01:10.770 --> 00:01:15.539 in Quebec, marathon watches in Ontario, Fortnite Optics in British Columbia, 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:20.789 bear Watch Systems, frontiersman Gear, eye Hunter International 00:01:20.789 --> 00:01:24.419 Barrels, marks Stuffer Supply Company. 00:01:24.630 --> 00:01:29.820 This is Coffee Vertex Solutions and Splendid Bastard Beard Supply. 00:01:30.419 --> 00:01:34.860 Your support of these Canadian companies not only benefits you with exclusive 00:01:34.860 --> 00:01:39.150 discounts, but also strengthens local communities across the country. 00:01:39.870 --> 00:01:43.020 Now, without further ado, let's get on with this podcast. 00:01:43.289 --> 00:01:47.220 I'm joined today by someone who's lived a life of resilience and action. 00:01:47.565 --> 00:01:51.045 Raised in Zimbabwe, he's tackled anti-poaching, law enforcement, close 00:01:51.045 --> 00:01:52.965 protection and private investigation. 00:01:53.295 --> 00:01:56.985 But beyond the high stakes world he operates in, his true passion is 00:01:56.985 --> 00:02:01.245 mentoring others through adversity and helping victims of domestic abuse reclaim 00:02:01.245 --> 00:02:02.865 their strength through True haven. 00:02:03.465 --> 00:02:05.985 Welcome to the Silver Court podcast, Heath Jackson. 00:02:06.345 --> 00:02:07.515 Thank you very much, Travis. 00:02:07.575 --> 00:02:08.294 Pleasure to be here. 00:02:08.505 --> 00:02:10.215 I was, uh, intrigued. 00:02:10.215 --> 00:02:11.715 You've done one podcast before. 00:02:11.715 --> 00:02:12.945 You referenced that one to me. 00:02:12.945 --> 00:02:16.005 I did a little bit of background and, and checking on you and 00:02:16.515 --> 00:02:17.895 seeing what you're all about. 00:02:17.985 --> 00:02:19.875 You've led a pretty interesting life. 00:02:19.935 --> 00:02:19.995 Yeah. 00:02:20.595 --> 00:02:23.115 If you leave out all the bad stuff, it's not bad. 00:02:23.445 --> 00:02:25.065 Oh, we don't have any bad stuff on our lives. 00:02:25.065 --> 00:02:25.425 Come on. 00:02:26.175 --> 00:02:30.465 Um, yeah, you know what that was, that's one of the questions I would ask people. 00:02:30.465 --> 00:02:33.975 I would say, uh, knowing what you know now, would you go 00:02:33.975 --> 00:02:35.025 back and change anything? 00:02:35.025 --> 00:02:39.435 Or what would you tell a 20-year-old or 15-year-old you with all 00:02:39.435 --> 00:02:40.785 the experience you have and I. 00:02:41.310 --> 00:02:43.650 Time and again, everyone says I wouldn't change a thing. 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:43.800 Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 00:02:44.040 --> 00:02:46.410 Travis Bader: Because it's all of those bad things that teach us 00:02:46.410 --> 00:02:47.850 those lessons that we need to know. 00:02:47.940 --> 00:02:48.180 Yeah. 00:02:48.210 --> 00:02:49.110 That we need to learn. 00:02:49.110 --> 00:02:53.490 And if we'd shortcut those by any way, we wouldn't be who we are now. 00:02:54.210 --> 00:02:54.810 Yeah, that's true. 00:02:55.500 --> 00:02:58.530 So in my reaching out, I'm just gonna read this little part. 00:02:59.220 --> 00:03:03.630 An individual who's a friend of mine, a friend of yours, getting 00:03:03.630 --> 00:03:04.710 a little bit of background. 00:03:04.710 --> 00:03:09.000 His last party says, uh, he just tells me about you and all the rest. 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:13.560 He says he's a good and solid CP operator, as well as private investigator. 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.490 He loves the outdoors and spends a lot of time in quote secret areas 00:03:17.490 --> 00:03:20.730 of the bush, swimming in pools and having outdoor barbecues. 00:03:21.030 --> 00:03:24.690 He's also a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but nothing too extreme that I know about. 00:03:24.780 --> 00:03:27.690 All in all, a good bugger as we'd say in Zi. 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:28.500 That's right. 00:03:28.590 --> 00:03:28.860 Yeah. 00:03:29.010 --> 00:03:29.640 There you go. 00:03:29.700 --> 00:03:29.910 Yeah. 00:03:29.910 --> 00:03:30.840 That had to be Darren. 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:31.650 You got it. 00:03:31.650 --> 00:03:32.220 That's Darren. 00:03:33.420 --> 00:03:33.690 Yeah. 00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:34.380 Um. 00:03:34.890 --> 00:03:36.810 So you grew up in Zim? 00:03:37.020 --> 00:03:37.410 I did. 00:03:37.410 --> 00:03:40.650 You're born in, uh, in the US I was, okay. 00:03:40.650 --> 00:03:42.570 What, when did you move over to Zimbabwe? 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:46.230 Heath Jackson: So, uh, I dunno how far back you want me to go. 00:03:46.290 --> 00:03:51.510 Um, my grandparents made their way over to what was then Rhodesia, and I was 00:03:51.510 --> 00:03:54.090 Zimbabwe back in the early forties. 00:03:54.180 --> 00:03:54.390 Mm-hmm. 00:03:54.630 --> 00:04:00.330 Uh, as missionaries and, um, set up my, my grandfather, they went to a 00:04:00.330 --> 00:04:01.590 really remote part of the country. 00:04:01.590 --> 00:04:03.810 It was a, a long, tedious journey to get there. 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:08.940 And, um, he built a, a church and then a house. 00:04:09.630 --> 00:04:11.550 Uh, and they, they sort of set up there. 00:04:11.550 --> 00:04:14.760 They were inaccessible, um, six months outta the year. 00:04:15.390 --> 00:04:18.660 And, you know, just there, there was no infrastructure there, no 00:04:18.660 --> 00:04:23.160 roads, no electricity, no, no sort of water supply, anything like that. 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:24.450 So very, very remote. 00:04:25.140 --> 00:04:27.060 Um, my dad was born there. 00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:28.950 I. And raised there. 00:04:29.190 --> 00:04:33.750 He, he spoke Shauna, the, the local language, the indigenous 00:04:33.750 --> 00:04:35.520 language, before he spoke English. 00:04:36.060 --> 00:04:40.799 Mm. And grew up, um, on the backs of the African women in the village there. 00:04:41.340 --> 00:04:45.270 Um, so he was, he was deeply immersed in that culture. 00:04:45.780 --> 00:04:47.310 Travis Bader: And that your father's bud, is it? 00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:47.700 Heath Jackson: Yes. 00:04:47.760 --> 00:04:47.820 Yeah. 00:04:47.820 --> 00:04:48.210 Okay. 00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:51.270 Uh, well, you have done a lot of background investigation. 00:04:52.169 --> 00:04:52.710 A little bit. 00:04:52.710 --> 00:04:54.599 I like to know who I'm talking to and Yeah. 00:04:55.409 --> 00:04:55.830 Yeah. 00:04:55.859 --> 00:04:56.729 Um, yeah. 00:04:56.729 --> 00:04:57.810 Buddy or bud. 00:04:57.900 --> 00:05:03.030 Um, so he, my, my dad, uh, so that's, that's one side of the story. 00:05:03.030 --> 00:05:08.640 My mom's parents, um, for three or four generations we're in South Africa. 00:05:09.179 --> 00:05:15.719 Um, actually one of her, one of her, um, ancestors worked on Robin Island, 00:05:15.719 --> 00:05:18.030 where Nelson Mandela was incarcerated. 00:05:18.840 --> 00:05:19.770 Ah, in the lighthouse. 00:05:20.130 --> 00:05:20.760 Travis Bader: Interesting. 00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:21.960 Heath Jackson: And, um. 00:05:22.350 --> 00:05:25.110 Yeah, so she, she has a deep history there as well. 00:05:25.440 --> 00:05:27.930 And so they, they met and got married. 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:32.520 Um, my dad was involved in the, in the security forces 00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:33.780 during the Rhodesian Bush war. 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:36.300 Mm. Uh, which was a terrorist war. 00:05:36.510 --> 00:05:39.180 Um, went on for 20 odd years. 00:05:39.840 --> 00:05:39.990 Yeah. 00:05:40.140 --> 00:05:44.430 Started in, around, uh, actually I don't think it was as long as 20 00:05:44.430 --> 00:05:48.480 years, but, you know, there were sort of rumblings that started way 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:49.920 back and then it came to a head. 00:05:50.820 --> 00:05:54.930 Um, yeah, he was, he was in the British South Africa Police, which were the 00:05:54.930 --> 00:05:57.030 Rhodesian security forces internally. 00:05:57.840 --> 00:06:00.270 And, uh, my uncles, both of my uncles were as well. 00:06:01.380 --> 00:06:03.630 Uh, I can go into a little more detail on that. 00:06:03.630 --> 00:06:04.500 It's pretty interesting. 00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:10.320 But they, once, once the war had sort of started to, to conclude, 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:14.130 um, my parents went over to the States to attend Bible college. 00:06:14.955 --> 00:06:16.995 And that's when I was born, so, okay. 00:06:17.325 --> 00:06:20.835 I was born in South Carolina and they, they finished their 00:06:20.835 --> 00:06:21.825 studies and moved back to 00:06:21.825 --> 00:06:22.845 Travis Bader: Zimbabwe when I was two. 00:06:23.655 --> 00:06:26.985 What impact did the Rhodesian Bush wars have on your father 00:06:26.985 --> 00:06:28.905 that you noticed growing up? 00:06:29.715 --> 00:06:33.645 Heath Jackson: Uh, in terms of, you know, things like negative impacts, 00:06:33.645 --> 00:06:35.085 like PTSD, that kind of thing. 00:06:35.085 --> 00:06:36.555 I, I never noticed anything. 00:06:36.765 --> 00:06:36.915 Hmm. 00:06:36.975 --> 00:06:41.775 Um, I noticed positive impacts that I, I assume had something to do with 00:06:41.775 --> 00:06:43.365 his experience doing the Bush war. 00:06:44.055 --> 00:06:48.405 Uh, those, you know, things like being capable and competent in the bush, 00:06:48.435 --> 00:06:50.445 capable and competent with firearms. 00:06:51.255 --> 00:06:54.044 Um, handling himself in tough situations. 00:06:54.734 --> 00:06:58.875 I, I assume a lot of that came from, from his experience in the security forces. 00:06:59.145 --> 00:07:00.075 Travis Bader: Isn't that interesting? 00:07:00.164 --> 00:07:02.114 Now I left that question open-ended. 00:07:02.114 --> 00:07:02.205 Mm-hmm. 00:07:02.445 --> 00:07:05.984 So it could be answered either way, but isn't it interesting the perspective that 00:07:05.984 --> 00:07:11.505 we have when we look back on challenging times in our lives and the difference 00:07:11.505 --> 00:07:15.434 that it makes on just how we coped day today, that that little perspective, 00:07:15.434 --> 00:07:18.705 it's either a negative or a positive, or maybe it's not quite so black and 00:07:18.705 --> 00:07:21.195 white, but still look at the positive. 00:07:21.255 --> 00:07:25.905 Heath Jackson: Yeah, I think a lot of people tend to, they tend to sort of 00:07:25.905 --> 00:07:31.064 highlight the negative impacts of being involved in conflict, uh, especially when 00:07:31.064 --> 00:07:35.984 it comes to armed conflict situations in, in a military context or even policing. 00:07:36.914 --> 00:07:40.335 Uh, but there are, I, I believe there are a lot of positives that come 00:07:40.335 --> 00:07:42.104 out of that, that are less obvious. 00:07:42.495 --> 00:07:42.825 Travis Bader: Hmm. 00:07:43.005 --> 00:07:43.215 Yeah. 00:07:43.305 --> 00:07:44.985 Why do you think it is that people highlight it? 00:07:44.985 --> 00:07:46.035 Like, I've got my theories? 00:07:46.125 --> 00:07:46.335 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:07:46.335 --> 00:07:48.525 Because that's what's what impacts you the most. 00:07:48.915 --> 00:07:49.245 Hmm. 00:07:49.365 --> 00:07:54.465 You know, people tend to, they tend to pick up on the negatives in their 00:07:54.465 --> 00:07:59.235 life, uh, and, and tend to overlook the fact that, hey, you know, when 00:07:59.235 --> 00:08:03.945 my vehicle broke down, um, I made a plan and, and got it running 00:08:03.975 --> 00:08:05.835 because I had experience with that. 00:08:05.865 --> 00:08:10.695 Or, um, you know, when I, when I encountered this difficult situation, 00:08:10.725 --> 00:08:15.045 I, I took a plan of action approach and didn't allow it to bog me down 00:08:15.045 --> 00:08:18.705 like it would someone who had no experience in adverse circumstances. 00:08:18.975 --> 00:08:19.485 Travis Bader: Right. 00:08:19.545 --> 00:08:19.815 Uh, 00:08:19.815 --> 00:08:22.485 Heath Jackson: and that's because I was in the military, they, they tend 00:08:22.485 --> 00:08:23.835 not to think about that, I think. 00:08:24.075 --> 00:08:25.035 Travis Bader: Right, right. 00:08:25.545 --> 00:08:29.565 Um, so growing up, you spent a lot of time in the bush yourself. 00:08:30.479 --> 00:08:30.900 I did. 00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:31.260 Yeah. 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:34.025 You're out hunting, fishing all my time in the bush. 00:08:34.265 --> 00:08:34.745 All your time. 00:08:35.069 --> 00:08:35.610 Tell me about it. 00:08:35.939 --> 00:08:36.780 That sounds amazing. 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:37.110 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:40.380 My teacher, my, my mom was my teacher, uh, up until grade seven. 00:08:40.500 --> 00:08:45.060 My dad built a little schoolhouse on our property, so we actually left the 00:08:45.060 --> 00:08:49.260 home and went into the schoolhouse and mom would come in and teach us. 00:08:49.590 --> 00:08:55.350 Uh, for the first half of the day, I, I had a, a pate gun hidden behind 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:56.850 the bookcase in the classroom. 00:08:56.850 --> 00:09:00.060 And when she would leave to go and do things, I'd be shooting things out 00:09:00.060 --> 00:09:02.460 the window, um, crows or whatever. 00:09:02.490 --> 00:09:02.790 Sure. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.250 And, uh, yeah, that. 00:09:06.105 --> 00:09:08.685 As soon as school was over, then it was party time. 00:09:08.895 --> 00:09:14.085 Um, and I had little African friends, especially that lived next door to me. 00:09:14.835 --> 00:09:20.205 Uh, his name was Tendai and his little brother, my peepee, um, believe it or not. 00:09:20.535 --> 00:09:23.895 And they, I'd, I'd go over and link up with them once I was 00:09:23.895 --> 00:09:25.694 done my, my school obligations. 00:09:26.055 --> 00:09:29.415 And we would take off barefoot in a pair of shorts with my 00:09:29.415 --> 00:09:32.595 22 from about age nine or 10. 00:09:33.135 --> 00:09:36.585 Um, and we lived right on the edge of a little town. 00:09:37.005 --> 00:09:41.685 Uh, so our, our yard opened up onto just an expansive bush. 00:09:42.435 --> 00:09:43.724 That was sort of no man's land. 00:09:44.505 --> 00:09:49.484 And we would take off, uh, sometimes overnight and, and go hunting and, 00:09:49.814 --> 00:09:54.194 you know, find our own food, pick our own food, make little shelters 00:09:54.255 --> 00:09:56.474 to, to hang out in or sleep over in. 00:09:57.135 --> 00:10:01.245 And yeah, that was, that was my childhood playing in rivers, you know, 00:10:01.245 --> 00:10:03.734 chasing, catching wild animals to keep. 00:10:04.064 --> 00:10:04.425 Um, 00:10:04.604 --> 00:10:06.405 Travis Bader: so that's why Darren says you still secret, 00:10:06.435 --> 00:10:08.655 secret places to go barbecue 00:10:08.655 --> 00:10:08.895 Heath Jackson: and, 00:10:08.895 --> 00:10:09.525 Travis Bader: and swim. 00:10:09.645 --> 00:10:10.395 Heath Jackson: I believe so. 00:10:10.395 --> 00:10:10.604 Yeah. 00:10:10.604 --> 00:10:14.805 I'm not, I'm not the biggest fan of most people, so I like, 00:10:15.165 --> 00:10:16.844 I like finding the remote areas. 00:10:16.844 --> 00:10:21.854 I have some secret gems, um, locally, you know, kind of behind mission that I go to. 00:10:22.365 --> 00:10:23.115 Like we in a mission. 00:10:24.435 --> 00:10:24.675 Yeah. 00:10:24.675 --> 00:10:24.676 Yeah. 00:10:25.365 --> 00:10:25.814 Nice try. 00:10:26.324 --> 00:10:28.609 Um, I could draw you a map, you know, there you go. 00:10:28.635 --> 00:10:29.895 And swear you to secrecy. 00:10:29.954 --> 00:10:30.135 There 00:10:30.135 --> 00:10:30.464 Travis Bader: you go. 00:10:30.525 --> 00:10:32.234 Heath Jackson: Uh, or just take you and show you myself, 00:10:32.234 --> 00:10:33.290 but yeah, this sounds good. 00:10:33.495 --> 00:10:33.615 Yeah. 00:10:33.615 --> 00:10:36.645 I like the ones that are less, less frequented, less inhabited. 00:10:37.605 --> 00:10:40.905 Travis Bader: And so you say, you know, not a big fan of people. 00:10:40.995 --> 00:10:41.235 Yeah. 00:10:41.235 --> 00:10:45.345 Is that because you're used to not having many people around and 00:10:45.405 --> 00:10:46.665 there's a certain comfort to that? 00:10:46.665 --> 00:10:46.667 I don't 00:10:46.672 --> 00:10:46.770 Heath Jackson: think so. 00:10:46.910 --> 00:10:47.130 Um, 00:10:49.270 --> 00:10:50.895 I don't, I wouldn't say I'm an introvert. 00:10:51.135 --> 00:10:52.335 I'm not an extrovert either. 00:10:52.335 --> 00:10:53.475 I'm somewhere in the middle. 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:53.590 Um, 00:10:55.755 --> 00:10:58.785 I think it's just, I think part of that is culture. 00:10:59.415 --> 00:11:04.035 You know, I'm, there are a lot of things about first world culture that, that 00:11:04.035 --> 00:11:10.515 b me, um, the sense of entitlement and, um, a lack of regard for other 00:11:10.515 --> 00:11:12.915 people, a lack of common decency. 00:11:12.915 --> 00:11:17.805 I. And, uh, you know, of, of course it doesn't apply to everyone in the 00:11:17.805 --> 00:11:22.875 first world, but by and large, a lot of the, the sort of silly, silly, uh, 00:11:22.875 --> 00:11:27.345 city dweller types that, that come out and try to find those, those spots that 00:11:27.345 --> 00:11:32.145 I enjoy so much Mm. Tend to show up with a big boombox and their pit bull 00:11:32.145 --> 00:11:34.245 and their man purse, and I hate that. 00:11:34.245 --> 00:11:35.595 And a bunch of weed and Yeah. 00:11:35.775 --> 00:11:39.795 Um, and they, they like to make their presence very well known and it sort 00:11:39.795 --> 00:11:43.335 of detracts from the whole purpose of getting away from things and out into 00:11:43.335 --> 00:11:46.065 nature when you have that around you. 00:11:46.245 --> 00:11:46.605 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:11:46.725 --> 00:11:48.105 I've never understood that. 00:11:48.105 --> 00:11:51.470 You go on a hike and you see somebody else and they're carrying a boom box. 00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:51.750 Mm-hmm. 00:11:51.830 --> 00:11:52.935 And they're blasting the music. 00:11:52.935 --> 00:11:56.355 I mean, like, if you really wanna listen to something, I mean, you can put on 00:11:56.355 --> 00:12:00.045 a headset and put in your earbuds, whatever, but they want everybody else 00:12:00.045 --> 00:12:01.035 to hear what they're listening to. 00:12:01.035 --> 00:12:01.395 Yeah. 00:12:01.635 --> 00:12:01.875 Yeah. 00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:02.150 It's just. 00:12:02.790 --> 00:12:03.630 I, I don't get it. 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:08.550 No, I don't get it either, but, uh, but I definitely can appreciate the wanting to 00:12:08.550 --> 00:12:11.460 get away and having a sense of freedom. 00:12:11.465 --> 00:12:11.665 Mm-hmm. 00:12:11.745 --> 00:12:11.985 Right. 00:12:12.060 --> 00:12:14.700 The freedom that the ocean brings, the freedom that the hills bring, 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:20.880 the freedom that the more difficult places where the average Jill and 00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:23.190 Joe won't be traveling to will. 00:12:24.150 --> 00:12:27.090 And if you run into somebody else, hopefully they've gone 00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:28.500 through that same difficulty Yeah. 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:32.490 Endeavor to get there and they might share a similar mindset or respect for it. 00:12:32.495 --> 00:12:32.545 Yeah, 00:12:32.745 --> 00:12:33.025 Heath Jackson: absolutely. 00:12:33.055 --> 00:12:33.345 Yeah. 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:34.140 Yeah. 00:12:34.260 --> 00:12:37.830 I think, well, I had a, I had a thought there that was really 00:12:37.830 --> 00:12:38.760 good and it's gone though. 00:12:39.265 --> 00:12:40.320 Travis Bader: I do that all the time. 00:12:41.010 --> 00:12:42.990 This is why I got a pen and paper in my notepad. 00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:44.460 I gotta badly jot this stuff down. 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:44.640 I can't 00:12:44.640 --> 00:12:46.950 Heath Jackson: write and, and listen at the same time though, that's the problem. 00:12:47.370 --> 00:12:49.290 I'm, I'm too male to multitask. 00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:50.400 Travis Bader: I love it. 00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:50.850 Yeah. 00:12:51.390 --> 00:12:55.140 So, uh, you were involved with anti-poaching? 00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:55.650 Yes. 00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:58.260 I, um, recently, um. 00:12:58.995 --> 00:13:01.995 Had a fellow reach out probably reached out to you as well, saying 00:13:01.995 --> 00:13:04.605 that you've got a friend who's looking to getting into anti-poaching look. 00:13:04.605 --> 00:13:04.665 Yeah. 00:13:04.665 --> 00:13:04.755 Said, 00:13:04.785 --> 00:13:05.055 Heath Jackson: yep. 00:13:05.175 --> 00:13:05.805 Travis Bader: You got it. 00:13:05.805 --> 00:13:05.954 Yep. 00:13:06.194 --> 00:13:09.285 Um, what, tell me about anti-poaching. 00:13:10.814 --> 00:13:13.574 Heath Jackson: Um, well, my exposure to that was fairly limited. 00:13:13.574 --> 00:13:15.074 It was right outta high school. 00:13:15.135 --> 00:13:20.175 Um, so when I was in high school, so I mentioned my mom taught me 00:13:20.175 --> 00:13:24.975 till grade seven, grade eight, um, which over in Zimbabwe is form one. 00:13:25.064 --> 00:13:27.074 They followed the British system of education. 00:13:27.675 --> 00:13:31.454 So form one through six, six years of high school, um, they 00:13:31.454 --> 00:13:32.954 sent me off to boarding school. 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:33.240 Okay. 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:39.615 And, um, basically bootcamp, uh, with, with classes. 00:13:40.064 --> 00:13:40.095 Okay. 00:13:40.095 --> 00:13:44.595 So very regimented, very structured, very, very formal. 00:13:45.225 --> 00:13:48.435 Um, Anglican boarding school, uh, very British. 00:13:49.095 --> 00:13:52.905 And um, I. While I was in boarding school, on one of the school 00:13:52.905 --> 00:13:55.485 holidays, I attended a survival camp. 00:13:55.515 --> 00:13:59.474 Mm. Uh, in a, in a spot on the border with Zambia. 00:14:00.464 --> 00:14:05.204 Uh, the, the sort of premise was they would teach you 00:14:05.204 --> 00:14:07.515 bushcraft skills for a week. 00:14:07.515 --> 00:14:12.824 So we, we went, there was, um, co-ed course, they had a big sort of, uh, 00:14:12.855 --> 00:14:14.714 sleeping accommodation, just an A-frame. 00:14:14.714 --> 00:14:14.805 Okay. 00:14:14.925 --> 00:14:18.375 Open at the bottom with a concrete pad and a loft. 00:14:18.405 --> 00:14:20.895 So the, the girls would sleep upstairs. 00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:21.180 Mm-hmm. 00:14:21.265 --> 00:14:23.145 The guys would sleep down on the concrete pad. 00:14:24.075 --> 00:14:29.895 And each morning we'd get up, we'd have PT and so physical training? 00:14:29.925 --> 00:14:30.015 Yep. 00:14:30.585 --> 00:14:34.965 Uh, so we'd wake up at six, do our pt, and then go on a, on a bushcraft walk. 00:14:35.025 --> 00:14:38.325 And they would teach us things like, um, making string from bark 00:14:38.325 --> 00:14:44.145 or cordage as they call it, or trap building or, um, tracking or any, any 00:14:44.145 --> 00:14:46.455 other number of bushcraft exercises. 00:14:47.115 --> 00:14:50.445 And the idea was during that week to teach us the skills we would 00:14:50.445 --> 00:14:52.335 need to use in a survival situation. 00:14:52.395 --> 00:14:52.845 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:14:53.085 --> 00:14:56.925 Heath Jackson: And then you would go back at a separate time for 00:14:56.955 --> 00:15:00.315 10 day survival, um, exercise. 00:15:00.315 --> 00:15:01.485 So cool. 00:15:01.545 --> 00:15:05.145 They would take us and drop us off in a group and, um. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.820 And you'd have to use those skills that you learned while you were in training. 00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:11.490 There was no instructor with you when you were on the survival phase. 00:15:12.180 --> 00:15:15.360 Uh, so yeah, it was really, really interesting. 00:15:15.420 --> 00:15:18.480 Um, you know, you, you learn a lot about yourself, you 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:19.920 learn a lot about your peers. 00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:23.850 Uh, the people that went in there very popular came out not so popular. 00:15:24.185 --> 00:15:24.475 Yeah. 00:15:24.510 --> 00:15:27.840 And, uh, the quieter ones came out really popular. 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.380 Um, it was just really, really interesting once you peel away all 00:15:31.380 --> 00:15:36.000 the, the comforts of life and people are put in a survival situation 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:41.100 mentally, especially to see who has the resilience and composure to be able to 00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:42.870 make it through an exercise like that. 00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:43.260 So, 00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:44.430 Travis Bader: yeah. 00:15:44.430 --> 00:15:47.310 So if I'm gonna go, gonna go out in a bit of a limb here. 00:15:47.370 --> 00:15:47.490 Mm-hmm. 00:15:47.910 --> 00:15:49.740 You're probably one of the quiet ones that went in there. 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:50.340 I was, yeah. 00:15:50.430 --> 00:15:50.715 There you go. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:52.830 Heath Jackson: I was, yeah. 00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:55.050 I was never, I was never one of the popular kids. 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:59.460 Mm. I was a, a scrawny little runt and, uh, bullied heavily for the 00:15:59.610 --> 00:16:01.230 first four years or so of high school. 00:16:01.770 --> 00:16:02.910 What does, what does that look like? 00:16:04.395 --> 00:16:07.665 Uh, mostly, mostly verbal intimidation. 00:16:07.755 --> 00:16:07.995 Hmm. 00:16:08.055 --> 00:16:10.095 Um, yeah. 00:16:10.095 --> 00:16:14.925 People, so for example, I was in a dorm room, uh, for quite a long stretch with, 00:16:15.285 --> 00:16:16.635 there were eight of us in the dorm room. 00:16:16.995 --> 00:16:19.785 Um, I was the only white kid in there. 00:16:20.835 --> 00:16:23.444 Uh, as, as I recall, there may have been one other one. 00:16:23.444 --> 00:16:28.635 And, and every night after lights out, they, they would taunt me, uh, 00:16:28.635 --> 00:16:32.564 relentlessly, you know, and, uh, yeah, without going into too much detail mm-hmm. 00:16:32.595 --> 00:16:35.475 Uh, they'd talk about things that they, that they wanted to do to my 00:16:35.475 --> 00:16:40.814 mom and my sister or Mm. Um, it was this very sort of chest puffing, 00:16:41.085 --> 00:16:43.814 um, a lot of racial tension mm-hmm. 00:16:43.905 --> 00:16:49.574 Um, and resentment that, that sort of sied and, and I would 00:16:49.574 --> 00:16:51.285 just lie there and, and ignore it. 00:16:51.915 --> 00:16:55.395 And after a while it takes a toll. 00:16:55.995 --> 00:16:56.954 Um, sure. 00:16:57.015 --> 00:17:01.245 Until eventually one day I, I stood up for myself and, and the sort of. 00:17:01.875 --> 00:17:07.935 The main antagonist, um, stood up to him and, and that was 00:17:07.935 --> 00:17:09.405 basically the end to the bullying. 00:17:09.944 --> 00:17:15.015 And yeah, moved on from there and became someone that, you know, I found, 00:17:15.015 --> 00:17:18.165 I found myself in a situation where other guys that were struggling with, 00:17:18.165 --> 00:17:23.835 with bullying would come to me and I was able to sort of step in, um, on 00:17:23.835 --> 00:17:27.855 their behalf or talk to the bully or give them advice, that kind of thing. 00:17:27.855 --> 00:17:29.595 And, and that was really rewarding for me. 00:17:30.405 --> 00:17:34.965 So I, I think it also, it kind of coincided with like, I had never 00:17:34.965 --> 00:17:39.585 been involved with group sports, team sports other than playing soccer 00:17:39.585 --> 00:17:42.735 with a, a soccer ball made outta plastic bags all tied together. 00:17:43.665 --> 00:17:43.935 That's awesome. 00:17:43.935 --> 00:17:46.515 Um, in the dirt with running around trees, you know? 00:17:46.515 --> 00:17:46.635 Yeah. 00:17:46.635 --> 00:17:51.165 Like that, that was, that was my team sport exposure until boarding school. 00:17:51.315 --> 00:17:56.955 And that was when I, I. You know, it was mandatory to, to fill up your 00:17:56.955 --> 00:17:59.685 afternoon sort of slots with sports. 00:18:00.105 --> 00:18:01.305 Mm. You had to sign up. 00:18:01.995 --> 00:18:06.195 So I had exposure to everything from soccer, water polo, squash, 00:18:06.255 --> 00:18:11.805 um, to rugby field, hockey, you know, cricket, um, cross country. 00:18:11.835 --> 00:18:15.255 We had a, it was a huge opportunity. 00:18:15.255 --> 00:18:17.235 We had, um, a mountain biking team. 00:18:17.235 --> 00:18:18.675 We had a triathlon team. 00:18:18.735 --> 00:18:20.085 There was a climbing club. 00:18:20.325 --> 00:18:22.575 Uh, there was a snake club, falconry club. 00:18:22.935 --> 00:18:23.445 Sounds amazing. 00:18:23.685 --> 00:18:25.095 Yeah, it was pretty awesome. 00:18:25.095 --> 00:18:27.255 I mean, that's how my parents sold me on it to begin with. 00:18:28.275 --> 00:18:30.165 They told me about all the things I could try. 00:18:30.195 --> 00:18:30.825 Yeah. 00:18:30.825 --> 00:18:34.305 And, and I was really excited, but I, what I didn't know was how hard 00:18:34.305 --> 00:18:38.445 it would be to be away from home three weeks at a time and Yeah. 00:18:38.955 --> 00:18:44.355 And, and stuck in a situation where I wasn't just around other missionary kids 00:18:44.355 --> 00:18:46.815 or African buddies I'd made friends with. 00:18:46.815 --> 00:18:51.225 I was around all kinds of kids from all different walks of life and. 00:18:51.600 --> 00:18:53.250 Who had nothing in common with me. 00:18:53.669 --> 00:18:55.950 Um, and I had to learn how to relate to them. 00:18:56.490 --> 00:18:58.200 That was a challenging exercise. 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.340 I didn't have a safe place to go to fall back on, or, you know, 00:19:02.340 --> 00:19:05.940 I, I just had to figure it out for myself, which was fantastic. 00:19:06.060 --> 00:19:07.980 Um, but at the time was terrible. 00:19:08.159 --> 00:19:09.060 Travis Bader: Yeah, I can imagine. 00:19:09.060 --> 00:19:09.120 Yeah. 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:15.060 Um, yeah, I, I never, it's funny how guys and girls will do it as well. 00:19:15.060 --> 00:19:16.440 They push and they test each other. 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:18.120 But guys, it just seems like a constant. 00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:18.930 Poke, poke, poke. 00:19:18.930 --> 00:19:20.250 Let's see where their limits are. 00:19:20.250 --> 00:19:20.310 Yeah. 00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:21.210 Where their boundaries are. 00:19:21.510 --> 00:19:22.830 And there's a game that's played. 00:19:22.860 --> 00:19:23.040 Mm-hmm. 00:19:23.399 --> 00:19:28.470 And some people can play it very well and other people like myself will just ignore 00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:29.669 it 'cause I don't wanna play that game. 00:19:29.669 --> 00:19:31.980 And then it comes to a point where you gotta do something. 00:19:32.580 --> 00:19:34.530 And the response is way over the top. 00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:39.060 It shuts down and it's like, okay, now that's not the way to properly, 00:19:40.350 --> 00:19:41.970 properly deal with these things. 00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:46.080 Like it solve the issue now, but it didn't solve all the poking and then the hurt 00:19:46.080 --> 00:19:48.450 feelings when the on the other side. 00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:48.870 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:19:48.870 --> 00:19:51.390 I mean, I, you know, I was, I was a tender little guy back then. 00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:52.830 I didn't have a thick skin at all. 00:19:53.340 --> 00:19:54.450 Very sensitive. 00:19:54.540 --> 00:19:56.640 Um, I took everything personally. 00:19:57.270 --> 00:19:58.200 I had a lot to learn. 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.980 I was just a, I was a kid and I think a lot of, a lot of what I 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:09.150 took as, as a tax, um, was just, uh, the, the terms alluding, you know, 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.460 it was, um, it was just comradery. 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:14.850 It was just razzing each other, like, you know, teasing each other 00:20:14.850 --> 00:20:17.580 because they, they, or teasing me because they liked me, you know? 00:20:17.580 --> 00:20:17.790 Right. 00:20:18.225 --> 00:20:18.635 They care 00:20:18.655 --> 00:20:19.530 Travis Bader: or they wanna like you. 00:20:19.530 --> 00:20:20.100 Yeah, they wanted, 00:20:20.430 --> 00:20:20.790 Heath Jackson: yeah. 00:20:20.790 --> 00:20:24.660 And I didn't take it that way, you know, to me it was, it was an attack. 00:20:24.780 --> 00:20:25.170 So, 00:20:25.620 --> 00:20:29.610 Travis Bader: you know, so I've been vocal about the fact I've got a DHD, or, or at 00:20:29.610 --> 00:20:31.620 least I've been diagnosed with A-D-H-D-I. 00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:34.680 Still scratching my head whether I got it or not. 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:35.460 I know, I know. 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:39.960 I was, uh, put on a very large dosage of Ritalin from grade three, and I took 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.580 myself off when I went in grade eight. 00:20:41.610 --> 00:20:42.750 Some experimental run. 00:20:43.170 --> 00:20:48.720 Talked about this before, but one of the things that coincides with A DHD is, 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.740 uh, what, what do they call rejection sensitivity, dysmorphia or dysphoria. 00:20:52.830 --> 00:20:56.640 Um, basically you take everything pretty damn personal and you 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:57.960 think, well, they meant to do that. 00:20:57.960 --> 00:20:58.650 And yeah. 00:20:58.650 --> 00:21:02.790 And, and there's a sort of a disconnect in the head for the intentions behind 00:21:02.790 --> 00:21:04.260 why somebody's doing something. 00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:04.920 Hmm. 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:05.340 Interesting. 00:21:05.430 --> 00:21:10.015 When I look at your background and likes extreme sport sports and Adrenaline junkie 00:21:10.035 --> 00:21:13.110 and all the rest, like, oh, you know, there's, there's a lot of things here 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.850 that kind of tick the boxes for what they, uh, what they end up diagnosing me with. 00:21:17.879 --> 00:21:18.120 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:18.975 Maybe, maybe. 00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:19.560 Who knows? 00:21:19.560 --> 00:21:19.920 I mean. 00:21:20.925 --> 00:21:24.645 Growing up, there was no A DHD there, there, none of the 00:21:24.645 --> 00:21:26.205 kids I knew had any allergies. 00:21:26.205 --> 00:21:29.834 There were no, there was no, um, dyslexia. 00:21:29.834 --> 00:21:31.274 There was no, like, none of that. 00:21:31.334 --> 00:21:36.135 And I don't know if it's just because we all drank food or ate food straight out 00:21:36.135 --> 00:21:39.495 of the ground or off the farm and drank milk to the hose straight out of the cow. 00:21:39.584 --> 00:21:39.794 Yeah. 00:21:40.185 --> 00:21:43.784 Um, and so it wasn't, you know, we didn't have problems with carcinogens 00:21:43.784 --> 00:21:47.879 and stuff, or, or if it's because there was no diagnosis and, and 00:21:48.074 --> 00:21:49.485 people did have those things. 00:21:50.115 --> 00:21:50.804 Travis Bader: That's a good question. 00:21:50.834 --> 00:21:50.955 Yeah. 00:21:50.955 --> 00:21:51.584 I'm not sure. 00:21:51.735 --> 00:21:52.094 I think 00:21:52.185 --> 00:21:53.084 Heath Jackson: maybe a bit of both. 00:21:53.294 --> 00:21:54.254 Travis Bader: I think it's a bit of both. 00:21:54.254 --> 00:21:54.255 Yeah. 00:21:54.261 --> 00:21:57.915 I think, I think people put attention to something and the more they put that 00:21:57.915 --> 00:21:59.594 attention to it, they start wearing it. 00:21:59.895 --> 00:22:00.165 Right. 00:22:00.165 --> 00:22:01.155 I am my anxiety. 00:22:01.155 --> 00:22:01.245 Mm-hmm. 00:22:01.485 --> 00:22:04.544 Or my, my A DHD, well, no, it's not mine. 00:22:04.635 --> 00:22:04.725 Right. 00:22:04.725 --> 00:22:05.625 It's just something that. 00:22:06.315 --> 00:22:09.270 I'll, I'll deal with and I'll work with, and I still question 00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:10.350 whether I have it or not. 00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:14.130 'cause there's plenty of times when I don't exhibit any of those symptoms. 00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.980 When I'm out in the wild, when I'm in an environment that matches 00:22:16.985 --> 00:22:17.205 Heath Jackson: mm-hmm. 00:22:17.425 --> 00:22:18.525 Travis Bader: My personality type. 00:22:18.625 --> 00:22:18.845 And 00:22:19.315 --> 00:22:19.605 Heath Jackson: yeah. 00:22:19.650 --> 00:22:23.010 I think a lot of people make the mistake of taking a diagnosis as 00:22:23.010 --> 00:22:26.370 a life sentence and they sort of surrender to the fact that, well, 00:22:26.370 --> 00:22:29.760 I have this and that excuses that behavior so I don't have to work on it. 00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:32.340 Um, that really bothers me. 00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:37.950 Mm. Um, people that sort of give into things like anxiety, um, or depression. 00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:40.290 Um, I mean, I'm not a psychologist. 00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:42.840 I, you know, I'm just, this is just my opinion. 00:22:43.590 --> 00:22:46.950 Based on what I've been through, which we'll probably get to at some point. 00:22:46.950 --> 00:22:50.310 But, you know, I've been diagnosed with some, some of those things 00:22:50.310 --> 00:22:52.080 and, and I'm not anymore. 00:22:52.290 --> 00:22:55.290 Um, so it's not a life sentence, it is something you can work on. 00:22:55.290 --> 00:22:57.480 You, you are able to change as an individual. 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:02.700 People have the, the ability to take the reins of their mind and, and channel 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.030 their thoughts and control their thoughts instead of being dictated to by them. 00:23:06.389 --> 00:23:07.950 Travis Bader: But that's not the popular opinion. 00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:08.310 No. 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:13.350 The popular opinion is, man, I'm not fitting in with what's going on around me. 00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:15.090 There must be something wrong with me. 00:23:15.090 --> 00:23:15.180 Mm-hmm. 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:19.139 And that's, you know, the old analogy of trying to judge a fish 00:23:19.139 --> 00:23:20.790 by its ability to climb a tree. 00:23:20.790 --> 00:23:21.060 Right? 00:23:21.060 --> 00:23:24.419 It's always gonna look bad compared to the monkey, right? 00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:24.659 Yeah. 00:23:24.665 --> 00:23:27.149 But, but that monkey in the water and the fish excels, right. 00:23:27.629 --> 00:23:31.500 Um, I think the popular opinion is people. 00:23:31.935 --> 00:23:33.435 Desperately want to fit in. 00:23:33.525 --> 00:23:35.175 And we see that time and time again. 00:23:35.175 --> 00:23:38.865 And as much as people say they don't, you look at covid, right? 00:23:39.075 --> 00:23:40.605 People talking in hushed tones. 00:23:40.605 --> 00:23:43.125 If they had a contrary opinion because they didn't want to be 00:23:43.125 --> 00:23:45.015 ostracized by the rest of the group. 00:23:45.015 --> 00:23:52.635 And some people, I, I didn't speak that, that hushed Well, it's, it's, it's funny 00:23:52.665 --> 00:23:56.415 how, uh, social of an animal we are. 00:23:56.775 --> 00:23:57.675 Mm-hmm. 00:23:57.705 --> 00:23:59.475 And they say, well, I want to fit in. 00:23:59.475 --> 00:24:02.865 I want to, I'm, I'm not studying right. 00:24:02.865 --> 00:24:05.475 Or I'm not retaining information, or I seem like I'm hyper 00:24:05.475 --> 00:24:07.185 proactive, or whatever it might be. 00:24:07.215 --> 00:24:08.745 Doc, what can we do? 00:24:08.745 --> 00:24:11.295 And our system says, well, I don't know. 00:24:11.415 --> 00:24:12.555 I think there's a pill for that. 00:24:12.915 --> 00:24:13.215 Right. 00:24:13.305 --> 00:24:15.165 I, I think there's something we can give you, we can 00:24:15.165 --> 00:24:16.845 Heath Jackson: give you a label and a prescription. 00:24:17.175 --> 00:24:17.655 Travis Bader: That's it. 00:24:17.715 --> 00:24:17.985 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:24:18.015 --> 00:24:19.125 Travis Bader: We'll diagnose you. 00:24:19.455 --> 00:24:19.845 Okay. 00:24:19.845 --> 00:24:23.895 Well, I, I, I personally don't think these diagnoses are 00:24:23.895 --> 00:24:25.395 really worth a heck of a lot. 00:24:25.395 --> 00:24:25.485 Mm-hmm. 00:24:25.540 --> 00:24:25.700 Um. 00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:29.250 When you were talking about PTSD earlier, right? 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:33.570 You look at cultures of warrior classes that come back and they're 00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:37.680 lauded as heroes for going to war and protecting the others. 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.510 And, and they can live their life proud and they could have seen the 00:24:42.510 --> 00:24:49.455 same atrocities and hardships that a, uh, another society welcomes them back 00:24:49.475 --> 00:24:51.630 and says, you guys are baby killers. 00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:52.530 How could you do it? 00:24:52.560 --> 00:24:52.650 Mm-hmm. 00:24:52.890 --> 00:24:54.540 We shouldn't have gone to war to begin with. 00:24:54.540 --> 00:25:00.090 And this, the social, the perspective that individuals have of themselves, I think 00:25:00.090 --> 00:25:05.610 greatly influences how their body responds and how their mind responds to it. 00:25:05.790 --> 00:25:05.850 Yeah. 00:25:07.035 --> 00:25:07.215 Yeah, 00:25:07.275 --> 00:25:07.395 Heath Jackson: I 00:25:07.395 --> 00:25:07.755 Travis Bader: agree. 00:25:09.015 --> 00:25:13.785 Heath Jackson: So, I mean, to get back to the anti-poaching piece, um, that, 00:25:13.815 --> 00:25:17.295 that course that I went on, they, they sort of extended an invite for me to 00:25:17.295 --> 00:25:20.625 come back after high school and spend some time there with them if I wanted to. 00:25:20.625 --> 00:25:21.675 So that's what I did. 00:25:21.825 --> 00:25:22.155 Mm-hmm. 00:25:22.275 --> 00:25:25.665 And, um, that's when I had my exposure to, to the anti-poaching. 00:25:25.755 --> 00:25:30.405 Uh, so they basically were given a, a, a huge tract of land by national 00:25:30.405 --> 00:25:32.535 parks to use for education purposes. 00:25:33.075 --> 00:25:37.275 And the, the caveat sort of was that they would be responsible for the 00:25:37.275 --> 00:25:40.875 anti-poaching, um, exercises in that area. 00:25:41.595 --> 00:25:47.865 So the, the group, the course was run by ex SLU scouts, which were, I'm sure you're 00:25:47.865 --> 00:25:50.925 familiar, but very, very specialized unit. 00:25:51.015 --> 00:25:54.345 Um, they actually recruited from the SAS and other branches. 00:25:54.915 --> 00:25:58.905 Um, these guys were, they make the Navy Seals look like. 00:25:59.354 --> 00:26:00.705 Uh, regular infantry. 00:26:01.125 --> 00:26:02.834 They were, they, they were incredible. 00:26:02.864 --> 00:26:05.534 They're good at what they do, very good at what they did, and, 00:26:05.715 --> 00:26:08.864 and a wealth of knowledge to, to, to be able to learn from. 00:26:08.985 --> 00:26:13.155 Mm. And awesome guys to be around good, solid people. 00:26:13.155 --> 00:26:19.395 So that was, you know, I, I went on, uh, patrols with them, responded 00:26:19.395 --> 00:26:22.995 with them to, to calls and, and that kind of thing for, for a 00:26:22.995 --> 00:26:23.715 Travis Bader: period before 00:26:23.715 --> 00:26:23.774 Heath Jackson: I 00:26:23.774 --> 00:26:25.155 Travis Bader: made my way over here. 00:26:25.875 --> 00:26:32.864 So a friend from South Africa sitting having some sushi, he gets a text coming 00:26:32.864 --> 00:26:35.324 in, makes kind of a bit of a face. 00:26:35.864 --> 00:26:36.975 I'm like, what is it? 00:26:37.034 --> 00:26:38.715 He's like, ah, ah, you don't wanna see it. 00:26:39.165 --> 00:26:39.764 Okay. 00:26:40.334 --> 00:26:41.264 Ah, here, I'll show it to you. 00:26:41.715 --> 00:26:44.324 It's, there's some poachers they caught Right. 00:26:44.895 --> 00:26:48.104 And shows me a picture and they got four of 'em on the, on the 00:26:48.104 --> 00:26:49.425 fence and they're lined up dead. 00:26:49.425 --> 00:26:49.514 Yep. 00:26:49.604 --> 00:26:50.264 And they just kill 'em. 00:26:50.445 --> 00:26:50.594 Yep. 00:26:50.774 --> 00:26:52.726 Is that, was that the response that you were Um, 00:26:53.445 --> 00:26:53.955 Heath Jackson: uh, so. 00:26:55.125 --> 00:26:57.795 It may have been, it may have varied from place to place. 00:26:57.825 --> 00:27:02.205 Um, our sort of modus operandi was you give them an, an opportunity to 00:27:02.205 --> 00:27:07.575 surrender and, and if, if they don't, then majority of the time they'd end up dead. 00:27:07.575 --> 00:27:12.675 Not because, um, it was an, an inappropriate use of force, but because 00:27:12.675 --> 00:27:14.835 if they weren't gonna surrender, they would try to fight their way out. 00:27:15.195 --> 00:27:19.995 Mm. Um, the majority of the time it was a case of them running with their AK 00:27:19.995 --> 00:27:21.765 over their shoulder firing as they ran. 00:27:21.765 --> 00:27:26.955 Mm. That was sort of, they weren't, they weren't the most efficient killing teams. 00:27:27.045 --> 00:27:33.225 Um, they were funded by and large by Chinese interests and would come 00:27:33.225 --> 00:27:38.835 across the border to, to hunt for ivory or, or rhino horn or in some cases, 00:27:38.895 --> 00:27:40.755 um, they were subsistence poachers. 00:27:40.755 --> 00:27:42.825 So coming over to get animals 'cause they were none. 00:27:43.199 --> 00:27:44.459 In the area they came from? 00:27:45.060 --> 00:27:46.620 Uh, either way it was poaching. 00:27:46.949 --> 00:27:47.250 Sure. 00:27:47.459 --> 00:27:52.379 And, you know, the odd occasion they would lie in ambush and if, if they knew we 00:27:52.379 --> 00:27:55.949 were, we were approaching or chasing them. 00:27:56.250 --> 00:28:00.060 Um, but yeah, that, that was, that did happen a lot. 00:28:00.629 --> 00:28:00.870 So 00:28:00.870 --> 00:28:02.790 Travis Bader: if they surrendered, what was their consequence? 00:28:03.179 --> 00:28:06.955 Heath Jackson: They'd be turned over to the police and I don't know, honestly, 00:28:07.114 --> 00:28:08.189 I don't know what happened from there. 00:28:08.489 --> 00:28:10.379 Probably not a very pleasant experience. 00:28:10.379 --> 00:28:10.709 No. 00:28:11.040 --> 00:28:11.340 Yeah. 00:28:11.729 --> 00:28:12.149 Travis Bader: Okay. 00:28:12.270 --> 00:28:12.510 Yeah. 00:28:12.719 --> 00:28:13.290 Interesting. 00:28:13.290 --> 00:28:15.030 You did that for, for a little while. 00:28:15.149 --> 00:28:15.419 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:28:15.570 --> 00:28:22.260 And then I had a scholarship, um, available to me for university and, uh. 00:28:22.605 --> 00:28:26.805 The sort of natural landing place for me was, was bc My, my grandparents 00:28:26.805 --> 00:28:32.025 had retired from Zimbabwe to Abbotsford, so came over here, um, 00:28:32.145 --> 00:28:35.295 applied to university first, of course, got accepted, came over here. 00:28:35.445 --> 00:28:38.325 Um, lived in there unfinished basement. 00:28:38.325 --> 00:28:43.155 Sort of made it my little man cave and, and attended university, uh, here in 00:28:43.155 --> 00:28:45.825 BC and then started putting down roots. 00:28:45.825 --> 00:28:49.275 There wasn't a whole lot to go back to in Zimbabwe. 00:28:49.455 --> 00:28:53.445 Uh, not, not the best, most fertile grounds for a young 00:28:53.445 --> 00:28:54.735 guy starting out his life. 00:28:54.825 --> 00:29:01.575 Um, there, there was a lot of, not, not, um, military unrest, but just 00:29:01.575 --> 00:29:07.785 civil unrest than land repossession and a whole mess, um, going on back home. 00:29:07.785 --> 00:29:10.155 So this, this provided more opportunities. 00:29:10.155 --> 00:29:13.245 I was fortunate enough to have Canadian citizenship through my 00:29:13.245 --> 00:29:17.985 dad and US citizenship by birth, so it was a good place for me to be. 00:29:19.005 --> 00:29:20.925 Travis Bader: Right on the border, you can hop back and forth. 00:29:21.075 --> 00:29:21.285 Yeah. 00:29:21.375 --> 00:29:22.545 I guess work either side. 00:29:22.695 --> 00:29:23.325 Heath Jackson: I did, yeah. 00:29:23.325 --> 00:29:26.895 I went down to North Carolina at one point, worked as an animal trainer. 00:29:27.525 --> 00:29:32.325 Um, and then later on down the road after, after all the, the nonsense I 00:29:32.325 --> 00:29:37.155 went through, went down to Texas and, and went to schooling for close protection. 00:29:37.245 --> 00:29:39.405 So that was, you know, four or five month course. 00:29:39.735 --> 00:29:42.645 Travis Bader: So you worked as an animal trainer? 00:29:42.675 --> 00:29:42.795 I did. 00:29:42.795 --> 00:29:45.225 Was this like for the movies or is it for just, 00:29:45.255 --> 00:29:48.315 Heath Jackson: they used the animals in movies and, uh, TV commercials. 00:29:48.435 --> 00:29:48.705 Okay. 00:29:48.765 --> 00:29:51.135 A lot of what they did with them was educational. 00:29:51.135 --> 00:29:55.365 So the, the place I worked was, uh, a natural science center. 00:29:55.365 --> 00:29:59.295 So it was kind of like if you combined Vancouver's Zoo, aquarium 00:29:59.295 --> 00:30:04.125 and Science world into one place, they had, they had everything, uh, 00:30:04.125 --> 00:30:05.655 all kinds of different sections. 00:30:05.715 --> 00:30:06.255 Um. 00:30:06.530 --> 00:30:06.920 That's cool. 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.240 And yeah, so I was, I was, my title was the junior curator supervisor, 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.600 so they had junior curators that were seasonal that would come in and work, 00:30:14.690 --> 00:30:16.850 um, basically looking after the animals. 00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:21.800 Mm. And, and that role extended because of my, my knowledge and 00:30:21.800 --> 00:30:23.690 history with animals in Zimbabwe. 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:29.300 Um, you know, I didn't have any official qualifications, but my boss saw an 00:30:29.300 --> 00:30:35.090 opportunity there and they needed someone to, to handle the animals, um, for people 00:30:35.090 --> 00:30:36.440 that were filming and that kind of thing. 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:38.030 So that was a role I stepped into. 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.960 Travis Bader: What kinda animals? 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.060 Heath Jackson: We had a cougar, uh, we had a couple black bears, a bobcat, um, and 00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:48.560 then a bunch of smaller stuff, like they had raccoons and a sloth and, uh, possum, 00:30:48.710 --> 00:30:50.570 um, some monkeys, that kind of thing. 00:30:51.090 --> 00:30:51.899 Travis Bader: That's pretty neat. 00:30:51.959 --> 00:30:52.260 Yeah. 00:30:52.649 --> 00:30:56.310 So working with these black bears in the cougar, that would be kind of, uh, 00:30:56.520 --> 00:30:56.909 Heath Jackson: yeah. 00:30:57.179 --> 00:30:57.870 It was interesting. 00:30:57.870 --> 00:30:59.159 They were, they were very tame. 00:30:59.399 --> 00:30:59.459 Yeah. 00:30:59.459 --> 00:31:01.979 You know, they, they had been raised by people. 00:31:02.100 --> 00:31:05.729 Um, so it was, it was an easy sort of role to step into. 00:31:06.030 --> 00:31:06.629 Fair enough. 00:31:06.810 --> 00:31:06.929 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:08.070 Do you hunt in bc? 00:31:08.429 --> 00:31:11.639 Heath Jackson: I have, um, I don't hunt very much anymore. 00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:16.229 Mm. It's sort of lost its appeal for me, admittedly, maybe because it's a lot 00:31:16.409 --> 00:31:18.750 more work here than it was back home. 00:31:19.590 --> 00:31:21.030 Travis Bader: It is a lot of work, isn't it? 00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:22.050 Heath Jackson: It is a lot of work. 00:31:22.110 --> 00:31:23.310 Uh, it takes a lot of time. 00:31:23.459 --> 00:31:24.510 It's a large investment. 00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:24.899 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:29.610 Heath Jackson: Um, yeah, I have, I have hunted quite a, quite a bit in the first, 00:31:29.639 --> 00:31:31.500 uh, sort of 17 years that I was here. 00:31:31.590 --> 00:31:35.820 Mm. And, and more, more recently is just, haven't hunted as much. 00:31:35.879 --> 00:31:37.919 I've been, I've been pretty busy, so 00:31:38.370 --> 00:31:39.419 Travis Bader: I've, um. 00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:43.230 Um, almost all of my hunting's been in bc mm-hmm. 00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:48.810 However, I did recently do a hunt in Molokai in Texas and in Sweden. 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:56.940 And the way that they hunt and the, the axis to, to game it was 00:31:57.690 --> 00:31:58.980 completely, completely different Yeah. 00:31:59.040 --> 00:32:00.150 Than over here. 00:32:00.150 --> 00:32:04.950 I was like, I I could be a very good bow hunter in these places over here, man. 00:32:05.010 --> 00:32:07.740 I'm, I'm gonna be sticking to my rifle for a bit more anyways 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.510 because, um, it is, it's harder. 00:32:09.510 --> 00:32:09.780 It's, yeah. 00:32:09.780 --> 00:32:09.870 I 00:32:09.870 --> 00:32:12.360 Heath Jackson: think if, if you're a good hunter in BC you can be a 00:32:12.360 --> 00:32:13.620 good hunter pretty much anywhere. 00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:14.880 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:14.881 Yeah. 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:15.660 Yeah. 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:20.430 That's interesting to know, especially so, um, and you of course hunting back in 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:24.180 Zimbabwe and you what game everywhere or, 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:27.090 Heath Jackson: yeah, I mean, so the hunting, the way the 00:32:27.090 --> 00:32:30.990 hunting works here is kind of different, um, as a, as a resident. 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:31.410 Travis Bader: Hmm. 00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:33.810 Heath Jackson: Uh, it's very different to a foreigner going 00:32:33.810 --> 00:32:36.600 over there and hunting and Yeah. 00:32:36.600 --> 00:32:37.860 We would, you basically. 00:32:39.659 --> 00:32:41.760 Bid on, uh, what they call a bag. 00:32:42.179 --> 00:32:46.440 And a bag will have a number of different animals, of different species in it. 00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:46.919 Mm-hmm. 00:32:47.159 --> 00:32:52.290 That you're, you're allowed to, to take, to harvest, and it'll be for a 00:32:52.290 --> 00:32:54.990 specific sort of geographical area. 00:32:55.679 --> 00:33:00.720 Those, those numbers and species are determined by, um, population 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.899 counts that national parks do, con conservation services do. 00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:10.020 And so they, they identify what the, what the ideal, uh, population is, the 00:33:10.020 --> 00:33:14.700 ideal number of males and females, um, in order to keep that, that particular 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:20.550 species at an optimum level so that they don't, um, eat themselves out of 00:33:20.550 --> 00:33:25.379 their environment or, or, um, in the case of predators so that they don't. 00:33:26.834 --> 00:33:32.084 Decimate the population of their prey or, or not control it enough, right? 00:33:32.084 --> 00:33:33.645 So there's a delicate balance there. 00:33:34.215 --> 00:33:40.185 And the hunter's role is basically the culling of the, the animals that are 00:33:40.185 --> 00:33:45.945 deemed inefficient or, you know, not, not necessary for the optim levels. 00:33:46.544 --> 00:33:51.314 So yeah, we would typically, it would be two or three families. 00:33:51.705 --> 00:33:55.844 Um, my dad and his, his friends, um, and their families that would go 00:33:55.844 --> 00:34:00.764 to these hunting camps and set up, um, you know, we had it easy there. 00:34:00.764 --> 00:34:03.254 There's a lot of sort of manual labor from the farms. 00:34:03.284 --> 00:34:05.415 Most of my, my parents' friends were farmers. 00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:07.440 They had manual labor there. 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.980 Their chance to go on a hunting trip was like their vacation of the year. 00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:11.580 They loved it. 00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:12.179 Yeah. 00:34:12.270 --> 00:34:16.080 Um, and so you, you'd go out on a hunt if you were able to harvest 00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:19.470 an animal, you'd come back to camp and you basically back the truck up 00:34:19.470 --> 00:34:21.810 to, to the sort of slaughter area. 00:34:22.020 --> 00:34:22.139 Mm-hmm. 00:34:22.409 --> 00:34:27.150 And the guys would take over from there and the, and the hunters would retreat 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:32.220 to, you know, the spot around the pool or around a fire and, and have a cold snack. 00:34:32.220 --> 00:34:33.900 And, um. 00:34:34.325 --> 00:34:36.515 And everything else would be sort of taken care of. 00:34:36.635 --> 00:34:37.295 Travis Bader: I love that. 00:34:37.475 --> 00:34:37.715 Yeah. 00:34:37.835 --> 00:34:39.095 That's spot around the pool. 00:34:39.250 --> 00:34:39.290 Yeah. 00:34:39.410 --> 00:34:41.210 You, you, you don't do that in bc? No. 00:34:41.470 --> 00:34:41.690 Heath Jackson: No. 00:34:41.870 --> 00:34:42.650 Travis Bader: How about Ong? 00:34:42.650 --> 00:34:43.690 You, you make Ong? 00:34:43.690 --> 00:34:44.375 Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:44.495 --> 00:34:44.765 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:34:44.825 --> 00:34:46.745 Travis Bader: There's a place in Langley where I get my built on from. 00:34:46.745 --> 00:34:46.835 Yes. 00:34:47.195 --> 00:34:47.405 Yeah. 00:34:47.405 --> 00:34:48.005 Heath Jackson: Serengeti. 00:34:48.010 --> 00:34:48.250 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:34:48.455 --> 00:34:48.725 Yeah. 00:34:48.725 --> 00:34:50.765 How does that compare to what you It's good. 00:34:50.825 --> 00:34:51.185 Yeah, 00:34:51.245 --> 00:34:51.635 Heath Jackson: it's good. 00:34:51.635 --> 00:34:53.495 I mean, it's not game built on right. 00:34:53.525 --> 00:34:58.175 So obviously a bit of a different taste that they only process beef there. 00:34:58.985 --> 00:35:01.775 Um, I've, I've been on them about that, but they need a special 00:35:01.775 --> 00:35:03.305 license to process wildlife. 00:35:03.305 --> 00:35:09.665 I have made some of my own Moose Ong and Elk Ong over the years Love elk. 00:35:09.665 --> 00:35:10.415 Uh, yeah. 00:35:10.915 --> 00:35:13.105 But yeah, the, the, they're, they're good. 00:35:13.105 --> 00:35:13.825 They're authentic. 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:14.190 Travis Bader: Okay. 00:35:14.190 --> 00:35:14.191 Mm-hmm. 00:35:14.485 --> 00:35:16.345 That's good to know 'cause I get that stuff. 00:35:16.765 --> 00:35:17.005 Yeah. 00:35:17.005 --> 00:35:17.425 Heath Jackson: Their chili 00:35:17.425 --> 00:35:18.265 Travis Bader: bites are fantastic. 00:35:18.295 --> 00:35:18.715 Oh my God. 00:35:18.715 --> 00:35:19.705 They're addictive, aren't they? 00:35:19.710 --> 00:35:20.095 I just, I shouldn't 00:35:20.095 --> 00:35:20.995 Heath Jackson: be mentioning it here. 00:35:20.995 --> 00:35:24.295 'cause just like my secret outdoor spots now everyone's gonna be going there and 00:35:24.295 --> 00:35:27.205 looking for these things and they're not gonna have any when I go into the shop. 00:35:27.235 --> 00:35:29.875 Travis Bader: Well, hopefully it keeps 'em in business and, uh, and 00:35:29.875 --> 00:35:31.315 gets, uh, gets to make it more. 00:35:31.315 --> 00:35:33.085 'cause I, I love those chili bites. 00:35:33.115 --> 00:35:33.175 Yeah. 00:35:33.175 --> 00:35:35.275 I'll just sit there and just slowly chew away with 'em. 00:35:35.275 --> 00:35:35.305 Oh, 00:35:35.995 --> 00:35:36.595 Heath Jackson: they're addictive. 00:35:36.685 --> 00:35:37.225 Oh my God. 00:35:37.225 --> 00:35:37.405 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:35:38.035 --> 00:35:41.785 So you got yourself involved with, uh, border services for a bit? 00:35:41.785 --> 00:35:41.995 Yes. 00:35:42.450 --> 00:35:44.310 Heath Jackson: I started off in corrections actually. 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:44.550 Did 00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:44.670 Travis Bader: you? 00:35:44.700 --> 00:35:45.210 Uh, yeah, 00:35:45.210 --> 00:35:46.980 Heath Jackson: I started off in provincial corrections. 00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:48.630 Travis Bader: That's kind of a tough job. 00:35:48.630 --> 00:35:49.050 It was 00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:50.820 Heath Jackson: very negative workspace. 00:35:50.970 --> 00:35:51.270 Yeah. 00:35:51.270 --> 00:35:51.271 Yeah. 00:35:51.276 --> 00:35:51.595 Hugely. 00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:51.960 Yeah. 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:56.010 I was fresh out of university and, and went in there. 00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:59.850 Um, at the time, the way it was structured, it was very difficult. 00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:02.730 They had a, you started off on what they call a call board. 00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:03.330 Okay. 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:07.920 So you were basically a cushion for overtime and you, you weren't 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.150 guaranteed full-time work. 00:36:09.150 --> 00:36:10.650 You didn't go straight into shift work. 00:36:10.710 --> 00:36:15.630 Mm. Um, they would call you in your, your performance when you applied, 00:36:15.630 --> 00:36:17.940 when you went through the in-house training, all that kind of stuff. 00:36:18.330 --> 00:36:20.790 Dictated where you were positioned on that call board. 00:36:21.615 --> 00:36:24.375 And then they would go down in order, uh, on the call board. 00:36:24.375 --> 00:36:29.085 And if people above you miss skip shifts or, or decline shifts, then 00:36:29.085 --> 00:36:30.375 they give you the opportunity. 00:36:30.734 --> 00:36:34.995 Mm. And so to start off with, I started at the beginning of the summer and, 00:36:35.055 --> 00:36:37.064 and worked like crazy all summer. 00:36:37.095 --> 00:36:38.085 I thought this is great. 00:36:38.145 --> 00:36:40.995 You know, I bought myself a new car and I was on my way. 00:36:41.504 --> 00:36:45.044 And then winter came and all the regular staff came back from their vacations 00:36:45.044 --> 00:36:48.915 and suddenly there was no work for five months, you know, six months. 00:36:48.915 --> 00:36:49.605 So, ouch. 00:36:50.174 --> 00:36:50.384 Yeah. 00:36:50.384 --> 00:36:56.384 I got a job in a copper warehouse to help, you know, cover that sort of dead period. 00:36:56.384 --> 00:36:56.386 Mm-hmm. 00:36:57.175 --> 00:37:01.345 Ended up being promoted to warehouse manager there and, and got pretty busy. 00:37:01.345 --> 00:37:05.545 And then corrections started calling me again and, and I couldn't break 00:37:05.545 --> 00:37:08.725 away to take the shifts and I had to sort of make a decision. 00:37:08.725 --> 00:37:13.225 So I opted for the stable income and, and yeah. 00:37:13.225 --> 00:37:19.015 Then a couple years after that, um, applied to CBSA and made it in there. 00:37:19.780 --> 00:37:23.290 Travis Bader: So corrections, everyone that I've known that has worked provincial 00:37:23.290 --> 00:37:28.090 corrections, uh, they talk about how extremely negative the environment is. 00:37:28.095 --> 00:37:28.155 Mm-hmm. 00:37:28.240 --> 00:37:28.360 Yeah. 00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:33.850 Uh, not only just dealing with the cons, but also with your coworkers. 00:37:33.910 --> 00:37:34.960 Heath Jackson: Coworkers were worse. 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:35.290 Just 00:37:35.470 --> 00:37:36.010 Travis Bader: That's right. 00:37:36.010 --> 00:37:36.430 That's what I hear. 00:37:36.435 --> 00:37:36.795 Just, yeah. 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:37.930 Heath Jackson: Just the attitude. 00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:38.500 Yeah. 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:40.930 People are so bitter, especially the people that have 00:37:40.930 --> 00:37:41.980 been there for a long time. 00:37:42.220 --> 00:37:44.800 I think they see a lot of really negative stuff. 00:37:44.860 --> 00:37:48.275 And I mean, it was, where I worked was what they call a, a 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:49.810 quote unquote secure facility. 00:37:50.140 --> 00:37:53.560 Mm. What other people around the world would call maximum security, I guess. 00:37:54.040 --> 00:37:54.070 Okay. 00:37:54.160 --> 00:37:57.460 Uh, as, as maximum as you can get on a provincial level anyway. 00:37:58.510 --> 00:38:02.170 And yeah, you're, you're basically enclosed in a concrete 00:38:02.410 --> 00:38:04.750 box for your 12 hour shift. 00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:08.470 So not a lot of sunlight exposure, not a lot of nature, 00:38:08.470 --> 00:38:10.450 not a lot of anything positive. 00:38:10.630 --> 00:38:13.810 Travis Bader: Um, not a big difference between you and the con in there 00:38:13.810 --> 00:38:15.115 for that 12 hour shift, is there 00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:15.790 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:38:15.790 --> 00:38:16.660 No, no. 00:38:16.930 --> 00:38:19.035 Just different uniform basic, just different uniform. 00:38:19.755 --> 00:38:20.025 Travis Bader: That's right. 00:38:20.025 --> 00:38:21.015 No one calls you a boss. 00:38:21.135 --> 00:38:22.215 Yeah, that's right. 00:38:22.305 --> 00:38:22.845 Or goof. 00:38:22.935 --> 00:38:23.535 Or goof. 00:38:23.535 --> 00:38:23.745 Yeah. 00:38:23.745 --> 00:38:24.525 Don't say goof. 00:38:24.735 --> 00:38:25.035 No. 00:38:25.245 --> 00:38:25.365 Yeah. 00:38:25.365 --> 00:38:28.605 I don't know if that translates over to a, uh, a us prisons, 00:38:28.605 --> 00:38:29.780 but, uh, Canadian, I don't know. 00:38:29.925 --> 00:38:30.675 Canadian prison. 00:38:30.675 --> 00:38:33.375 That's like, that's pretty much the worst he could call. 00:38:33.405 --> 00:38:33.735 Yeah. 00:38:33.735 --> 00:38:34.785 Someone as a goof, eh, mean 00:38:34.935 --> 00:38:37.095 Heath Jackson: as soon as I hear someone on the street using that 00:38:37.095 --> 00:38:39.075 word, I know they've been in prison. 00:38:39.135 --> 00:38:39.585 Right. 00:38:39.615 --> 00:38:41.055 They're a con They were a convict. 00:38:41.055 --> 00:38:41.415 Yeah. 00:38:42.285 --> 00:38:42.975 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:38:43.185 --> 00:38:45.045 Um, or they've worked with cons. 00:38:45.075 --> 00:38:45.345 Heath Jackson: Yeah, 00:38:45.615 --> 00:38:45.975 Travis Bader: yeah. 00:38:46.065 --> 00:38:46.275 Yeah. 00:38:46.275 --> 00:38:47.745 They picked it up somewhere Negative. 00:38:48.465 --> 00:38:50.805 Any interesting experience working there? 00:38:50.865 --> 00:38:51.765 Heath Jackson: Not particularly. 00:38:52.035 --> 00:38:52.305 No. 00:38:52.305 --> 00:38:52.875 Nothing. 00:38:52.965 --> 00:38:54.165 Nothing too striking. 00:38:54.255 --> 00:38:54.435 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:38:54.465 --> 00:38:56.715 Um, yeah, I mean, 00:38:58.275 --> 00:39:01.005 Heath Jackson: so I think that was, that was probably where I first learned that 00:39:01.005 --> 00:39:06.315 you, you can't judge the capacity of an individual to fight by their physique. 00:39:06.945 --> 00:39:10.845 Um, the, the one thing that comes to mind was this little Vietnamese guy. 00:39:10.905 --> 00:39:11.955 I mean, he was tiny. 00:39:11.955 --> 00:39:15.495 I. To maybe, maybe just over five foot if he was over five 00:39:15.495 --> 00:39:17.505 foot and, and pretty scrawny. 00:39:17.505 --> 00:39:19.665 And it took five of us to get him into a SAG unit. 00:39:19.875 --> 00:39:21.225 And yeah. 00:39:21.225 --> 00:39:22.065 That was interesting. 00:39:22.065 --> 00:39:25.995 As a, as a young guy Mm. Sort of my first exposure to that kind of thing. 00:39:26.685 --> 00:39:26.955 Yeah. 00:39:26.955 --> 00:39:29.444 It's, it was surprising how, how strong he was. 00:39:30.194 --> 00:39:30.615 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:39:30.795 --> 00:39:32.444 He was wiry ones, I tell ya. 00:39:32.475 --> 00:39:32.745 Yeah. 00:39:32.805 --> 00:39:35.535 Heath Jackson: And I think the mentality has so much to 00:39:35.535 --> 00:39:37.035 do with the ability to fight. 00:39:37.424 --> 00:39:37.575 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:39:37.575 --> 00:39:41.685 They say it's not about the, uh, size of the dog and the fight, but 00:39:41.685 --> 00:39:43.125 the size of the fight and the dog. 00:39:43.125 --> 00:39:43.455 That's right. 00:39:43.545 --> 00:39:43.725 Yeah. 00:39:43.815 --> 00:39:46.455 And there is something to that, but often it's always the little 00:39:46.455 --> 00:39:47.535 people who say that one too. 00:39:47.535 --> 00:39:47.745 Right. 00:39:47.745 --> 00:39:48.555 Yeah. 00:39:50.580 --> 00:39:53.775 Um, and then, so border services got on with there. 00:39:53.775 --> 00:39:53.865 Mm-hmm. 00:39:53.865 --> 00:39:55.005 And now you've got, thanks. 00:39:55.035 --> 00:39:57.524 A bit more respectable job. 00:39:57.524 --> 00:39:57.585 Yeah. 00:39:57.585 --> 00:39:58.665 You're still in uniform. 00:39:58.754 --> 00:39:59.055 Yeah. 00:39:59.220 --> 00:40:02.535 And you're, um, still had to sort of harass all the poor people at the border. 00:40:02.535 --> 00:40:03.015 That's right. 00:40:03.015 --> 00:40:03.345 Yeah. 00:40:03.435 --> 00:40:06.045 Heath Jackson: Had to put in the, the grunt work hours in the booth, 00:40:06.045 --> 00:40:07.455 you know, processing travelers. 00:40:07.455 --> 00:40:11.504 But later on down the road it sort of branched out a little more and there was 00:40:11.504 --> 00:40:16.305 more opportunity, um, to do things like roving and, you know, to work on a special 00:40:16.305 --> 00:40:18.285 enforcement team and that kind of thing. 00:40:18.285 --> 00:40:18.645 So 00:40:18.705 --> 00:40:18.915 Travis Bader: that's 00:40:18.915 --> 00:40:19.065 Heath Jackson: kind 00:40:19.065 --> 00:40:19.125 Travis Bader: of 00:40:19.125 --> 00:40:19.365 Heath Jackson: cool. 00:40:19.395 --> 00:40:19.725 Yeah. 00:40:20.085 --> 00:40:20.355 Yeah. 00:40:20.415 --> 00:40:23.234 Travis Bader: So what, what is that, that gets you and you, you're confirmed 00:40:23.234 --> 00:40:27.045 you got someone importing things illegally, so you can go to their house or 00:40:27.105 --> 00:40:28.305 Heath Jackson: No, that would be inland. 00:40:28.545 --> 00:40:28.875 Okay. 00:40:28.875 --> 00:40:29.535 For services. 00:40:29.595 --> 00:40:31.365 Um, no, it was more sort of. 00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:35.490 I don't wanna say special operations 'cause that has the wrong connotation, 00:40:35.490 --> 00:40:41.580 but, but unique operations where they would target specific incidences or, you 00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:46.770 know, if we had intelligence that a flight of people smugglers was coming in and um, 00:40:46.770 --> 00:40:49.830 you know, they would have, they would have the people that had paid them to bring 00:40:49.830 --> 00:40:53.010 them into Canada, flush their passports down the toilet, that kind of thing. 00:40:53.010 --> 00:40:57.360 And then become in undocumented and claim refugee status, that kind of thing. 00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:58.080 Or, um, 00:40:58.740 --> 00:40:59.490 Travis Bader: is it pretty common? 00:41:00.060 --> 00:41:01.650 Heath Jackson: Yeah, more common than you think? 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:03.180 Mm, or at least it was back then. 00:41:04.020 --> 00:41:08.130 Um, we also would, would do like airside operations where you're out 00:41:08.130 --> 00:41:12.485 on the apron targeting, um, what quote unquote ramp rats, you know, the, 00:41:12.600 --> 00:41:14.040 the baggage handlers that got it. 00:41:14.640 --> 00:41:16.740 That are involved with the truckers Yeah. 00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:20.970 That are involved with, um, criminal elements and, um, picking up. 00:41:21.540 --> 00:41:24.300 Packages from the cargo holds of the planes, that kind of thing. 00:41:25.050 --> 00:41:25.560 Travis Bader: Got it. 00:41:25.590 --> 00:41:25.680 Mm-hmm. 00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:27.300 That'd be kind of a fun one to do. 00:41:27.390 --> 00:41:27.720 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:41:27.990 --> 00:41:29.100 Travis Bader: Kinda gets you out, you gotta get your 00:41:29.100 --> 00:41:30.630 detective cap on a little bit. 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:31.140 Yeah. 00:41:31.140 --> 00:41:31.142 And yeah, 00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:34.860 Heath Jackson: it's anything that gets you outta that booth stuck 00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:38.520 in a bulletproof vest, processing people all day is, is good. 00:41:38.700 --> 00:41:39.660 Were you guys armed then? 00:41:39.810 --> 00:41:40.110 No. 00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:40.440 No. 00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:41.220 Uh, we were armed. 00:41:41.220 --> 00:41:42.060 Right, right. 00:41:42.060 --> 00:41:45.510 As I was leaving, as I, as I was resigning, we, we 00:41:45.510 --> 00:41:46.560 were starting to get armed. 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:47.220 Travis Bader: Okay. 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:47.640 Yeah. 00:41:48.120 --> 00:41:48.690 Heath Jackson: And 00:41:49.140 --> 00:41:51.455 Travis Bader: you, how long, was it about five years or so, was it? 00:41:51.475 --> 00:41:51.695 No, 00:41:51.695 --> 00:41:53.820 Heath Jackson: it was, uh, let see, 2000. 00:41:56.460 --> 00:41:57.000 Yeah, six 00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:57.390 Travis Bader: years. 00:41:57.420 --> 00:41:57.900 Six years. 00:41:57.900 --> 00:41:58.320 Okay. 00:41:58.410 --> 00:41:58.680 Yeah. 00:41:58.680 --> 00:41:59.910 My research is off a little bit. 00:41:59.910 --> 00:41:59.970 Yeah. 00:42:00.810 --> 00:42:01.230 Close. 00:42:01.350 --> 00:42:01.590 Maybe. 00:42:01.590 --> 00:42:03.300 I was looking at year old research close. 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:03.600 Yeah. 00:42:03.605 --> 00:42:06.540 And, uh, and what made you leave that? 00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:10.560 Heath Jackson: So my, my fiance at the time, um, actually. 00:42:11.475 --> 00:42:15.705 Wife at the time had a, a job opportunity on Vancouver Island. 00:42:15.705 --> 00:42:18.495 She was a, a radiation therapist. 00:42:18.524 --> 00:42:18.734 Hmm. 00:42:18.825 --> 00:42:23.355 Uh, so dealt with cancer patients and was very difficult to get 00:42:23.355 --> 00:42:25.154 full-time work in that field. 00:42:25.455 --> 00:42:29.415 Uh, she had an opportunity and so we decided to, to uproot 00:42:29.415 --> 00:42:30.734 and move over to the island. 00:42:31.605 --> 00:42:36.015 Um, I had always wanted to fly helicopters, so my goal was to go into 00:42:36.015 --> 00:42:41.895 flight school and bit by bit start working my way to rotary wing license. 00:42:42.975 --> 00:42:47.535 And, uh, two weeks after I resigned, um, all of that was derailed 00:42:47.535 --> 00:42:49.125 by, by a motorcycle accident. 00:42:49.305 --> 00:42:51.134 So, yeah. 00:42:51.134 --> 00:42:51.705 Tell me about that. 00:42:52.964 --> 00:42:53.895 Travis Bader: Let's hear that one. 00:42:53.955 --> 00:42:55.634 Heath Jackson: Yeah, I mean, that's basically why I'm here. 00:42:55.634 --> 00:43:00.915 I think, um, it was just, I, I had picked up some part-time work to cover 00:43:00.915 --> 00:43:06.975 the gap while we were moving and, um, I. Uh, after work one day, headed out 00:43:06.975 --> 00:43:11.535 to, we at the time was living in South Surrey, was heading out to Abbotsford. 00:43:11.625 --> 00:43:14.325 Uh, well, went out to Abbotsford, uh, worked on my, 00:43:14.355 --> 00:43:16.095 on my parents' boat with them. 00:43:16.725 --> 00:43:22.935 Um, and then went to the movies and mission with some friends of mine and 00:43:22.965 --> 00:43:25.275 was on my way home from, from the movies. 00:43:25.275 --> 00:43:28.005 This is June, so still light outside. 00:43:28.215 --> 00:43:30.225 Um, sort of later in the day. 00:43:30.945 --> 00:43:32.055 Very hot day. 00:43:32.175 --> 00:43:35.445 All I had on was jeans, flip flops, a t-shirt, and my helmet. 00:43:36.285 --> 00:43:39.465 Um, I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for that probably. 00:43:41.025 --> 00:43:45.225 And was heading home, um, riding down Bradner Road. 00:43:45.375 --> 00:43:45.465 Mm-hmm. 00:43:45.765 --> 00:43:51.345 And a, a young guy in a Passat with his buddies pulled out of a side street. 00:43:51.345 --> 00:43:55.605 So I, I, you can picture I'm heading south on Bradner. 00:43:55.665 --> 00:43:55.785 Mm-hmm. 00:43:56.175 --> 00:43:58.245 They pull out of a side street to make a left turn. 00:43:58.335 --> 00:43:58.425 Mm-hmm. 00:43:58.665 --> 00:43:59.265 In front of me. 00:44:00.015 --> 00:44:01.005 And, um. 00:44:01.620 --> 00:44:04.830 Uh, yeah, he, when he saw me coming, he slammed on the brakes 00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:08.910 and panicked, stopped right across the road and I had nowhere to go. 00:44:09.090 --> 00:44:11.610 Um, you know, it was deep ditches on either side. 00:44:11.640 --> 00:44:11.880 Mm-hmm. 00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:15.870 Um, I was going a little faster than I should have been. 00:44:15.900 --> 00:44:16.380 Mm-hmm. 00:44:16.620 --> 00:44:21.000 And I slammed into the side of that Passat, um, the bike, I, I, when I 00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.900 locked up the brakes, the, the bike sort of slid and laid down the bike. 00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:26.400 The bike went under the back of the car. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.210 I hit the side of the car, so the door jamb hit me sort of 00:44:30.210 --> 00:44:32.160 right behind my, my right arm. 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:32.550 Mm-hmm. 00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:35.100 I broke all my ribs. 00:44:35.160 --> 00:44:41.460 Uh, my, I sort of got wedged under the car a bit, so broke my pelvis in four places. 00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:44.100 They close it, call it a clo closed book fracture. 00:44:44.100 --> 00:44:47.580 So your pelvis, which is kind of like a bowl shape, closes in front. 00:44:47.910 --> 00:44:49.230 Oh, ouch. 00:44:49.230 --> 00:44:56.130 And, yeah, broke my back, um, broke my scapula in half and I. You, I had a co bad 00:44:56.130 --> 00:45:00.930 concussion, had a collapsed lung, one of the ribs punctured and collapsed the lung. 00:45:01.110 --> 00:45:03.690 Mm. Severed spleen, lacerated liver. 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.020 Um, a lot of road rash and No kidding. 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:07.800 Yeah. 00:45:08.010 --> 00:45:10.320 Was conscious throughout the whole ordeal. 00:45:11.370 --> 00:45:17.520 And I, yeah, I, I recall the sort of the coppery taste, the, the blood in my mouth 00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:21.570 and couldn't really breathe very well, I guess because of the collapsed lung. 00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:26.730 Mm. And so I felt like, for whatever reason, I felt like my helmet 00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:27.990 was restricting my breathing. 00:45:28.230 --> 00:45:32.250 Mm. So pulled my, my own helmet off, and which I shouldn't have done. 00:45:32.430 --> 00:45:37.410 Um, fortunately it didn't exacerbate any problems, but yeah, 00:45:37.410 --> 00:45:39.150 it was a, it was an experience. 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:40.590 Travis Bader: No kidding. 00:45:40.620 --> 00:45:44.550 Heath Jackson: I remember lying there and thinking, so going back 00:45:44.550 --> 00:45:48.420 to Zimbabwe and the unrest there, Mugabi was the president at the time. 00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:53.865 I. And I remember lying there and thinking as much as I loath that individual, I 00:45:53.865 --> 00:45:55.484 wouldn't even wish this pain on him. 00:45:55.815 --> 00:45:57.075 Mm. Uh, yeah. 00:45:57.075 --> 00:45:58.845 I remember that thought hitting me. 00:45:59.835 --> 00:46:00.075 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:46:00.075 --> 00:46:00.404 Wow. 00:46:00.464 --> 00:46:03.194 And the pain, you didn't go into shock, you didn't have the 00:46:03.194 --> 00:46:05.895 opportunity for the body to kind of numb that pain a little bit? 00:46:05.895 --> 00:46:06.464 Heath Jackson: No. 00:46:06.555 --> 00:46:08.700 Um, definitely wasn't numbed at all. 00:46:09.265 --> 00:46:10.484 I don't shock. 00:46:10.484 --> 00:46:13.035 I don't know about I, I'm sure I was in some shock. 00:46:13.095 --> 00:46:15.435 Mm. Um, but I, I remember the pain. 00:46:15.585 --> 00:46:15.884 Yeah. 00:46:15.884 --> 00:46:20.055 And, and I remember the paramedics arriving, strapping me to a board. 00:46:20.234 --> 00:46:24.194 And the board they put me on, they had to roll me to the side to get 00:46:24.194 --> 00:46:25.634 the one side of the board under me. 00:46:25.694 --> 00:46:25.935 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:46:26.174 --> 00:46:27.645 Heath Jackson: And then rolled me back onto it. 00:46:28.335 --> 00:46:31.845 And, and then there was, there were three straps that sort of secured 00:46:31.845 --> 00:46:33.134 you to the, to the clamshell. 00:46:33.134 --> 00:46:35.205 It wasn't a clamshell, it was a board at the time. 00:46:35.325 --> 00:46:36.674 Uh, now they have clamshells. 00:46:36.674 --> 00:46:36.765 Right. 00:46:36.765 --> 00:46:37.605 Which would've been better. 00:46:38.415 --> 00:46:43.665 And the strap that they put over my midsection, um, when he sort of put it 00:46:43.665 --> 00:46:47.895 through and cinched it up, it, it closed my pelvis because everything was broken. 00:46:48.495 --> 00:46:51.735 And I wish I could have punched that guy, but I didn't have 00:46:51.735 --> 00:46:53.145 the, the ability at the time. 00:46:53.205 --> 00:46:55.305 Um, but yeah, not, not pleasant. 00:46:55.305 --> 00:46:57.286 And then they, they took me to I Oxford Hospital Hospital. 00:46:57.825 --> 00:47:02.384 And when they realized the extent of the injuries transferred me to Royal Columbia. 00:47:03.675 --> 00:47:05.654 Travis Bader: So how long was the recovery on that one? 00:47:06.915 --> 00:47:08.625 Heath Jackson: The physical recovery is one thing. 00:47:08.805 --> 00:47:08.895 Mm-hmm. 00:47:09.285 --> 00:47:13.275 Um, you know, the emotional, psychological recovery is a different story. 00:47:13.365 --> 00:47:13.634 Travis Bader: Hmm. 00:47:14.415 --> 00:47:18.315 Heath Jackson: Physical recovery, I'd say probably a year and a half, two years. 00:47:19.395 --> 00:47:21.194 To be at the point where I was walking again. 00:47:21.194 --> 00:47:21.254 Hmm. 00:47:22.545 --> 00:47:26.325 Um, yeah, there was a lot that went into that, into physio, 00:47:26.325 --> 00:47:28.065 into, you know, pushing myself. 00:47:28.725 --> 00:47:32.234 I started physio earlier than I was supposed to. 00:47:32.234 --> 00:47:35.025 I just, I just was, I just wanted to get outta the bed. 00:47:35.295 --> 00:47:35.745 Hmm. 00:47:35.745 --> 00:47:41.984 Um, was chomping at the bit and yeah, I had to transfer myself from the bed to the 00:47:41.984 --> 00:47:44.325 wheelchair with my arms across a board. 00:47:44.714 --> 00:47:49.815 And, um, started with the wheelchair, just getting out of the bed and 00:47:49.815 --> 00:47:52.455 then slowly started weightbearing. 00:47:52.605 --> 00:47:53.055 Um. 00:47:54.075 --> 00:48:00.255 Little by little and the, yeah, the body, the body's ability to heal is remarkable. 00:48:00.525 --> 00:48:00.705 Mm-hmm. 00:48:00.945 --> 00:48:04.005 Um, you know, I had to go through several s well, two, I 00:48:04.005 --> 00:48:05.205 think two or three surgeries. 00:48:06.015 --> 00:48:11.895 Uh, I have a bunch of titanium hardware in my pelvis now and, and some other places. 00:48:11.925 --> 00:48:17.265 And yeah, it was, you know, but it was, it was a tangible challenge. 00:48:17.265 --> 00:48:18.525 It was something tangible. 00:48:18.525 --> 00:48:21.495 The, the pain was tangible, you know, I could, I could feel it. 00:48:22.335 --> 00:48:27.765 Um, it was something that I, I could, I could feel, I could 00:48:27.765 --> 00:48:29.025 identify to work through. 00:48:29.175 --> 00:48:29.415 Hmm. 00:48:29.565 --> 00:48:33.405 The psychological and emotional impact was not tangible. 00:48:33.405 --> 00:48:39.525 It wasn't something that I could, you know, quantify and, and, and, um, find the 00:48:39.525 --> 00:48:42.795 parameters of and work toward moving past. 00:48:43.589 --> 00:48:48.690 I didn't understand, um, the full impact that, that the accident had had. 00:48:49.680 --> 00:48:54.960 I did go to a psychologist and was diagnosed with major depressive 00:48:54.960 --> 00:49:00.690 disorder and, uh, PTSD and severe anxiety post-accident. 00:49:01.230 --> 00:49:02.700 Um, so that was interesting. 00:49:03.330 --> 00:49:03.480 Did 00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:04.890 Travis Bader: you feel you had any of that 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:05.730 Heath Jackson: pre-accident? 00:49:05.730 --> 00:49:05.940 No. 00:49:06.359 --> 00:49:06.660 Okay. 00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:07.650 No, definitely not. 00:49:08.040 --> 00:49:10.290 Um, no. 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:14.220 I, I had never had any symptoms of, of any of those things pre-accident. 00:49:14.520 --> 00:49:14.940 So, 00:49:15.089 --> 00:49:17.730 Travis Bader: major depressive disorder, anxiety. 00:49:18.060 --> 00:49:18.810 PTSD. 00:49:18.815 --> 00:49:19.255 PTSD. 00:49:19.290 --> 00:49:19.500 Yeah. 00:49:19.890 --> 00:49:23.370 What is, um, MDD look like? 00:49:24.299 --> 00:49:24.810 Um, 00:49:28.080 --> 00:49:29.970 Heath Jackson: it's hard, it's hard to put a finger on that. 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.350 I mean, it was just the, the best way I can describe it is sort 00:49:34.350 --> 00:49:39.750 of like, um, a heavy gray rain cloud around you all the time. 00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:42.690 Like no matter what you were going through, it just. 00:49:43.305 --> 00:49:48.435 Nothing was pleasant, nothing was, nothing was the same, nothing was fun. 00:49:48.495 --> 00:49:53.654 Like, it was just, um, you know, it a constant state of depression. 00:49:53.654 --> 00:49:56.595 It's like, it's like when you're in the height of winter here in 00:49:56.595 --> 00:49:59.535 January, you know, and you're waiting for summer and it never comes. 00:49:59.535 --> 00:49:59.685 It's 00:49:59.685 --> 00:50:00.105 Travis Bader: great. 00:50:00.165 --> 00:50:02.835 Heath Jackson: It's like a, yeah, just a perennial January, 00:50:02.835 --> 00:50:04.575 you know, just all year long. 00:50:04.575 --> 00:50:05.384 It's just January. 00:50:06.134 --> 00:50:12.525 Um, and you can never, you know, nothing you, nothing you do, um, 00:50:13.215 --> 00:50:14.565 sort of blows the clouds away. 00:50:15.315 --> 00:50:20.145 It's just, you're just stuck in that, in a rut of, of cold 00:50:20.145 --> 00:50:23.025 wetness and an emotional sense. 00:50:23.115 --> 00:50:24.705 Travis Bader: Well, what was your support network like? 00:50:25.785 --> 00:50:28.455 Heath Jackson: Um, I, as I mentioned, I was married at the time. 00:50:28.455 --> 00:50:28.545 Right. 00:50:28.605 --> 00:50:29.415 She was great. 00:50:29.715 --> 00:50:30.225 Um. 00:50:30.795 --> 00:50:31.785 She was a great woman. 00:50:32.174 --> 00:50:37.185 Uh, not, not the right person for me by any means, but a great individual. 00:50:37.785 --> 00:50:41.295 And she was really my only real support. 00:50:41.295 --> 00:50:46.004 I had a handful of friends that were, that stuck by me through that. 00:50:46.725 --> 00:50:50.745 Um, the groups that I had been involved with leading up to that 00:50:50.745 --> 00:50:53.595 point, a lot of them sort of disappeared into the woodwork. 00:50:54.075 --> 00:50:57.015 I don't know if that's because I wasn't as fun to be around. 00:50:57.225 --> 00:51:01.274 I don't know if it's because they, they didn't really know how to offer support. 00:51:02.085 --> 00:51:06.315 Um, I don't know what the reason is, but they, they just sort of vanished. 00:51:06.524 --> 00:51:08.595 Um, and that. 00:51:09.060 --> 00:51:13.620 You know, the, the two years after the accident sort of culminated 00:51:13.620 --> 00:51:18.990 in, in a divorce, ultimately, um, amicable but difficult nonetheless. 00:51:19.620 --> 00:51:23.070 Mm. And, um, I think it just sort of exposed the cracks in the 00:51:23.070 --> 00:51:24.690 relationship that were already there. 00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:32.220 Uh, it just sort of, it was a catalyst made things break down faster and Yeah. 00:51:32.220 --> 00:51:36.360 That, yeah, I ended up, uh, in a little basement suite with 00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:37.620 both vehicles off the road. 00:51:37.620 --> 00:51:41.070 I couldn't afford to insure them, was stuck on disability, which, which paid 00:51:41.070 --> 00:51:42.870 peanuts basically covered my rent. 00:51:43.650 --> 00:51:44.610 And that was about it. 00:51:44.700 --> 00:51:47.970 My, my parents had gone back to Zimbabwe. 00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:55.530 Um, they, they were only here for a short period and then had, had gone back so. 00:51:56.384 --> 00:52:00.435 For the majority of that recovery time, the, the five years or so after 00:52:00.435 --> 00:52:04.484 the, the accident, they, I didn't really have much of a support network. 00:52:04.875 --> 00:52:10.725 Um, but the ones that were supportive, uh, really stepped up and, and stood out. 00:52:12.254 --> 00:52:16.214 Travis Bader: It's interesting how things can happen in our life that act as a 00:52:16.214 --> 00:52:22.125 bit of a, a light that'll shine on and you find these groups and people who you 00:52:22.154 --> 00:52:24.495 thought were friends who just disappear. 00:52:24.555 --> 00:52:24.645 Mm-hmm. 00:52:24.884 --> 00:52:25.245 Okay. 00:52:25.305 --> 00:52:25.815 Fair enough. 00:52:25.815 --> 00:52:26.205 See ya. 00:52:26.654 --> 00:52:26.924 Yeah. 00:52:27.254 --> 00:52:30.495 And sometimes you find that there's people that come out of the woodwork that you'd 00:52:30.495 --> 00:52:35.924 never expect, or people that you would expect to kind of be there, but they, they 00:52:35.924 --> 00:52:37.935 step up in ways that you'd never expect. 00:52:37.940 --> 00:52:38.774 Yeah, yeah. 00:52:38.774 --> 00:52:39.375 Absolutely. 00:52:40.065 --> 00:52:40.274 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:52:42.075 --> 00:52:44.865 Travis Bader: So tell me about what it was like with these 00:52:44.865 --> 00:52:45.884 people that were there for you. 00:52:47.774 --> 00:52:48.075 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:52:48.075 --> 00:52:53.430 I mean, I. Uh, communication, uh, was a big one. 00:52:53.430 --> 00:52:57.810 Just people reaching out and sort of, um, checking in. 00:52:58.560 --> 00:53:03.390 Um, there were some people that stepped up and, and offered help 00:53:03.390 --> 00:53:07.650 financially, uh, or in terms of resources, just food, that kind of thing. 00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:07.710 Hmm. 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:13.799 Um, which was, you know, I never asked for it, but it was more appreciated than 00:53:13.799 --> 00:53:15.480 I think they'll, they'll ever really know. 00:53:15.600 --> 00:53:15.870 Mm-hmm. 00:53:16.110 --> 00:53:19.020 And, um, it was, it was a struggle. 00:53:19.020 --> 00:53:23.910 There were times where I, I, I existed on a bowl of Cheerios with water every day. 00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:28.140 Um, or, or would snack on dry cereal, that kind of thing. 00:53:28.230 --> 00:53:30.450 I just couldn't afford anything else. 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:35.939 And I'm sure in, in hindsight, I'm sure there were probably resources available 00:53:35.939 --> 00:53:40.410 to me, like, um, government funded or, or food banks, that kind of thing. 00:53:40.799 --> 00:53:44.520 But I didn't, I didn't know at the time, and it was, I, I come from a background 00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:46.680 where you, you just take care of it. 00:53:46.830 --> 00:53:48.359 You know, you don't rely on other people. 00:53:48.359 --> 00:53:49.799 You're not entitled to anything. 00:53:49.859 --> 00:53:51.270 You're, you're on your own. 00:53:51.720 --> 00:53:52.649 No one's coming. 00:53:52.680 --> 00:53:54.750 You, you have to figure out a plan. 00:53:55.379 --> 00:53:58.694 So I, I didn't, I didn't look into that or lean into it as, 00:53:59.069 --> 00:54:00.060 as I probably should have. 00:54:00.180 --> 00:54:00.629 Mm-hmm. 00:54:01.589 --> 00:54:07.980 Um, yeah, I mean, it, it ultimately, one of those individuals, um, 00:54:08.819 --> 00:54:10.410 I, I reached my rock bottom. 00:54:10.895 --> 00:54:15.060 I, I felt like those clouds had sort of closed in, like curtains all around me. 00:54:15.060 --> 00:54:21.660 I couldn't see past the immediate and, and was just completely hope hopeless. 00:54:22.020 --> 00:54:22.529 Um. 00:54:22.905 --> 00:54:25.425 And, and, and done fed up with everything. 00:54:26.025 --> 00:54:30.585 And, um, there were, there were a sequence of events that were really 00:54:30.585 --> 00:54:34.575 heavy and, and placed a burden on me that I had no capacity to 00:54:34.575 --> 00:54:35.985 be able to deal with financially. 00:54:36.255 --> 00:54:36.315 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:54:37.155 --> 00:54:41.625 Heath Jackson: And the, I, I only saw one way out and yeah, it was, 00:54:41.625 --> 00:54:43.365 it was in that context, right. 00:54:43.485 --> 00:54:47.505 Literally at the, at the last moment that I heard a knock on my door 00:54:47.895 --> 00:54:52.215 and ignored it and heard a knock on my window and ignored that too. 00:54:53.025 --> 00:54:56.145 And then heard a knock on my sliding door at my patio and thought, who, 00:54:56.205 --> 00:54:58.155 who is making this much of an effort? 00:54:58.245 --> 00:55:01.365 So, put down what I was doing that I shouldn't have been doing. 00:55:02.145 --> 00:55:03.975 And went to you, you'd made a decision. 00:55:03.975 --> 00:55:04.845 You're gonna take your life. 00:55:04.850 --> 00:55:04.930 Yeah. 00:55:04.950 --> 00:55:05.170 Yes. 00:55:05.355 --> 00:55:05.625 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:55:05.955 --> 00:55:08.865 Heath Jackson: Uh, wasn't sure if, if you wanted me to, to No, that's fine. 00:55:09.075 --> 00:55:10.395 Come right out and say that, but 00:55:10.570 --> 00:55:12.735 Travis Bader: I, I think there's a lot of value there. 00:55:13.590 --> 00:55:16.155 The reason why I want to talk about this mm-hmm. 00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:23.940 Is because I don't think, uh, while your situation is unique to you, I don't think 00:55:23.940 --> 00:55:28.290 the feelings that you have or what you go through is gonna be a unique situation. 00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:28.380 Right. 00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:30.360 And I think there's a lot of people out there that could be 00:55:30.600 --> 00:55:33.750 feeling similar things or going through them, some similar things. 00:55:34.350 --> 00:55:39.600 And if we can extract from your experience, um, the raise of light, the, 00:55:39.750 --> 00:55:44.190 the places that help the most, the lessons that we learn, um, I think there's a 00:55:44.190 --> 00:55:47.580 lot of value to your story, to others. 00:55:47.850 --> 00:55:48.300 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:49.410 I, I mean, that's why I'm here. 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:49.530 Mm-hmm. 00:55:49.770 --> 00:55:54.960 Um, really that if, if the only thing I get out of this whole experience is being 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:58.620 able to give someone else out there a bit of a different perspective and, and 00:55:58.620 --> 00:56:03.120 a bit of hope, a hopeful perspective, then it's, it's rewarding for me. 00:56:03.120 --> 00:56:04.920 That's, that's, yeah. 00:56:05.010 --> 00:56:08.640 Travis Bader: So you're in a situation where you felt there was no hope, right? 00:56:08.730 --> 00:56:10.500 You felt there was no other way out. 00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:12.180 Financial burdens were so great. 00:56:14.025 --> 00:56:18.585 The mindset was as such that, okay, well this is my time to check out. 00:56:18.615 --> 00:56:18.825 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 00:56:18.825 --> 00:56:24.645 I mean, my, my identity was wrapped up in my abilities and my 00:56:24.645 --> 00:56:27.975 physique and my Mm. You know, it was, it was very materialistic. 00:56:27.975 --> 00:56:32.775 It was not, not in the terms of, not in terms of belongings, but just aesthetics. 00:56:32.955 --> 00:56:37.635 Mm. Um, my marriage, you know, and, and all of those things 00:56:37.635 --> 00:56:38.835 have been ripped away from me. 00:56:38.925 --> 00:56:40.395 And you were involved with the church as well? 00:56:40.425 --> 00:56:40.785 Yes. 00:56:40.905 --> 00:56:41.655 Are you still involved? 00:56:42.555 --> 00:56:42.975 No. 00:56:43.065 --> 00:56:46.245 Um, I, I have a very strong faith. 00:56:46.365 --> 00:56:51.075 Mm. Um, you know, but I, I've become very disenfranchised 00:56:51.075 --> 00:56:52.215 with the established church. 00:56:52.575 --> 00:56:57.645 Um, you know, there was a point where when I came back from Texas, from the, the 00:56:57.645 --> 00:57:00.405 Close protection course I was on, they. 00:57:01.380 --> 00:57:03.090 I saw my ex there with her mom. 00:57:03.450 --> 00:57:06.030 I gave them both a big hug, you know, we chatted for a bit. 00:57:06.030 --> 00:57:10.680 I sat with them through the service, and when I was leaving, my, my ex-wife was, 00:57:11.040 --> 00:57:14.880 um, in position at the front door to greet people arriving for the next service. 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:18.630 So I saw her, she, she came out, you know, sort of chased me down in the 00:57:18.630 --> 00:57:24.030 parking lot to give me a hug goodbye and got emotional when she walked back up. 00:57:24.030 --> 00:57:29.040 The pastor saw her like that, and I wasn't privy to any of that conversation, 00:57:29.040 --> 00:57:32.490 but essentially from what she told me at the time, he asked her if it made 00:57:32.490 --> 00:57:34.050 it difficult for her to see me there. 00:57:34.890 --> 00:57:37.560 Uh, she said, yeah, you know, it was, it was emotional. 00:57:38.130 --> 00:57:38.370 So. 00:57:39.180 --> 00:57:42.330 That precipitated him reaching out to me, asking to get together. 00:57:42.450 --> 00:57:45.810 I met with him at a restaurant where he showed up with an elder from the 00:57:45.810 --> 00:57:47.520 church and asked me not to come back. 00:57:47.520 --> 00:57:47.580 Hmm. 00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:52.920 And, um, years later, he reached out again and apologized and asked to meet with me. 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:53.730 So I met with him. 00:57:54.450 --> 00:57:59.640 Um, I had a young East Indian guy that was, um, a coworker that 00:57:59.640 --> 00:58:02.370 had, had become a Christian, was interested in going to church. 00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:05.250 I really wanted him to be able to plug in there because the 00:58:05.250 --> 00:58:06.600 doctrine was really sound. 00:58:06.750 --> 00:58:07.080 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:58:07.530 --> 00:58:08.640 Heath Jackson: And the teaching was good. 00:58:08.640 --> 00:58:12.120 He had a way of connecting with people that didn't grow up in the church. 00:58:12.120 --> 00:58:12.390 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.800 Heath Jackson: And so I, I was, I was eager to be able to plug him in, 00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:18.330 but he didn't want to go without me. 00:58:18.750 --> 00:58:19.770 He wanted me to come with him. 00:58:19.770 --> 00:58:19.830 Hmm. 00:58:20.010 --> 00:58:24.450 So that was, you know, I met with, with the pastor at the, at this coffee shop. 00:58:24.450 --> 00:58:25.410 He had a great talk. 00:58:25.410 --> 00:58:28.770 He apologized profusely and, um. 00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:31.950 And then he said, when I was saying goodbye to him, he said, 00:58:31.950 --> 00:58:35.670 I'm just going to, I'll speak to so-and-so, my ex and just check 00:58:35.670 --> 00:58:36.900 with her that she's okay with it. 00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:41.670 And so, yeah, couple weeks, couple weeks later, I got a message from him 00:58:41.670 --> 00:58:43.140 to say, yeah, she's not okay with it. 00:58:43.140 --> 00:58:45.120 So don't, don't come. 00:58:45.180 --> 00:58:46.230 So that, that was it. 00:58:46.290 --> 00:58:47.970 That was the nail in the coffin from me. 00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:50.880 Um, did you have prior 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.570 Travis Bader: to that, was that a, um, a social network for you? 00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:55.350 Heath Jackson: Absolutely. 00:58:55.350 --> 00:58:55.500 Yeah. 00:58:55.500 --> 00:59:00.180 That, I mean, the majority of my close friends were from the church group. 00:59:00.180 --> 00:59:01.140 They were church people. 00:59:01.140 --> 00:59:03.270 We had a, we host survival study in our home. 00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:05.880 Um, you know, I was, I was very connected. 00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.790 I was involved with that church right from when it was a church 00:59:08.790 --> 00:59:10.920 plant, and, and it blew up. 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:11.820 It became huge. 00:59:11.970 --> 00:59:12.300 Mm-hmm. 00:59:12.390 --> 00:59:14.220 Um, and we were very involved. 00:59:14.220 --> 00:59:16.110 We did security, you know, at the church. 00:59:16.110 --> 00:59:19.200 We, and, and my, my buddies, my. 00:59:19.460 --> 00:59:21.590 My group was the church group. 00:59:21.830 --> 00:59:27.440 And, and that's what struck me was they were the ones that sort of vanished. 00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:32.420 The majority of them just vanished because I no longer fit inside that 00:59:32.420 --> 00:59:35.810 cookie cutter Christianese sort of image. 00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:37.640 Um, I had gone through a divorce. 00:59:37.640 --> 00:59:38.930 I was dealing with depression. 00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:39.260 Travis Bader: I, 00:59:39.260 --> 00:59:39.410 Heath Jackson: you 00:59:39.410 --> 00:59:39.590 Travis Bader: know, 00:59:39.650 --> 00:59:41.570 Heath Jackson: things were real, and yeah. 00:59:41.570 --> 00:59:41.990 That's, 00:59:41.990 --> 00:59:43.340 Travis Bader: that's when you need that support the most. 00:59:43.340 --> 00:59:43.880 Exactly. 00:59:44.060 --> 00:59:47.870 Heath Jackson: And, and I know, I know that like what, what Christians is 00:59:47.870 --> 00:59:52.880 supposed to be is inclusive, you know, reaching out to people in positions 00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:56.990 of need, reaching out, like, like Jesus' passion was for the lost sheep. 00:59:57.330 --> 01:00:01.890 Sure it wasn't, it wasn't for the ones in the, you know, in, in the herd. 01:00:01.890 --> 01:00:02.940 It was for the lost sheep. 01:00:03.330 --> 01:00:08.310 He, even when he was walking the planet, it was, it was the sick and dying. 01:00:08.310 --> 01:00:09.780 It was the, the prostitutes. 01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.155 It was the, you know, the people that needed him the most mm-hmm. 01:00:12.270 --> 01:00:13.230 That he reached out to. 01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:20.970 So the fact that, um, the established church, by and large, uh, is known to the 01:00:20.970 --> 01:00:26.460 secular world for judgemental attitudes, self-righteousness, exclusivity, things 01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:30.330 that are not at all what, what the, the church is supposed to be about. 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:33.090 Um, just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. 01:00:33.090 --> 01:00:35.010 And yes, there's a lot of good to it. 01:00:35.130 --> 01:00:36.390 Um, you know, the. 01:00:37.065 --> 01:00:38.235 I don't discredit that. 01:00:38.385 --> 01:00:41.745 Uh, but it's, the church is people, the church is not a building. 01:00:41.865 --> 01:00:42.915 It's a human institution. 01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:44.535 And, and people are flawed right. 01:00:44.655 --> 01:00:45.225 By nature. 01:00:45.225 --> 01:00:49.785 So you can't expect a per a perfect portrayal of 01:00:49.845 --> 01:00:51.435 Christianity through the people. 01:00:51.435 --> 01:00:53.655 Like they're, they're all broken too, in their own ways. 01:00:54.105 --> 01:00:54.465 Yes. 01:00:54.525 --> 01:00:56.265 So yeah, my faith is so strong. 01:00:56.295 --> 01:01:01.305 My, you know, I, I believe in what I believe in, but my church is 01:01:01.305 --> 01:01:05.400 the outdoors, my church, uh, being around people that are authentic and, 01:01:06.135 --> 01:01:10.245 and just having real conversations and, and real in depth discussion. 01:01:10.245 --> 01:01:10.335 Mm-hmm. 01:01:10.575 --> 01:01:11.415 About spirituality. 01:01:11.805 --> 01:01:12.015 Travis Bader: Yeah. 01:01:12.225 --> 01:01:12.735 It's funny. 01:01:12.795 --> 01:01:15.855 Uh, bear grills, so he's open about his faith. 01:01:16.545 --> 01:01:19.485 He, uh, says something very similar to that. 01:01:19.935 --> 01:01:23.835 He says, my church isn't inside a, a chapel with all these other people. 01:01:23.835 --> 01:01:26.400 It's when I sit down around the table with my family and my kids mm-hmm. 01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:29.715 This is when I'm outside and we're engaging with each other. 01:01:29.715 --> 01:01:32.925 And he says, well, maybe I'll read a little bit of scripture and. 01:01:33.705 --> 01:01:35.565 Before dinner or whatever it might be. 01:01:35.565 --> 01:01:35.625 Yeah. 01:01:35.654 --> 01:01:36.855 But that's church. 01:01:36.884 --> 01:01:36.975 Yeah. 01:01:36.975 --> 01:01:42.195 And it doesn't have to be, uh, pious on Sunday, getting dressed up, 01:01:42.195 --> 01:01:44.085 doing the, uh, doing the whole act. 01:01:44.085 --> 01:01:44.145 Yeah. 01:01:44.145 --> 01:01:46.215 And then going back to whatever it is you're doing. 01:01:46.275 --> 01:01:46.485 Yeah. 01:01:46.485 --> 01:01:46.875 There's, 01:01:47.085 --> 01:01:48.645 Heath Jackson: you know, I, I mean, I grew up around that. 01:01:48.765 --> 01:01:48.915 Yeah. 01:01:48.915 --> 01:01:53.175 I grew up, we, we would go to the States, um, for a year at a time. 01:01:53.775 --> 01:01:57.945 We made two trips over during my, my first 20 years of life, I believe. 01:01:59.235 --> 01:02:03.075 And you go to all kinds of churches, uh, churches that supported my parents 01:02:03.075 --> 01:02:05.145 that they went to give feedback to. 01:02:05.145 --> 01:02:08.925 And, you know, they'd put on a slideshow and they'd have a table with Curios 01:02:08.925 --> 01:02:11.475 on it, and they'd, they'd talk to them about the work they were doing 01:02:11.475 --> 01:02:12.495 and the impact they were having. 01:02:12.495 --> 01:02:17.325 And I mean, the people spoke Christianese, like the, you know, the, Hey, how 01:02:17.325 --> 01:02:19.154 are ya, you know, welcome here. 01:02:19.154 --> 01:02:22.634 And I mean, it was just, it just, it just smacked of 01:02:23.265 --> 01:02:24.225 Travis Bader: ugly do neighbor, you know? 01:02:24.404 --> 01:02:24.825 Yeah. 01:02:25.005 --> 01:02:25.305 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:02:25.305 --> 01:02:29.235 And, um, their, even their interests seemed feigned. 01:02:29.535 --> 01:02:30.915 Mm. Um. 01:02:31.169 --> 01:02:33.240 N not all of them again. 01:02:33.390 --> 01:02:33.480 Sure. 01:02:33.509 --> 01:02:36.540 There are always exceptions to the rule and, and the exceptions to the rule 01:02:36.540 --> 01:02:39.660 were people I really appreciated there, there were authentic people there. 01:02:39.870 --> 01:02:44.910 Mm. But I grew up around that sort of false persona. 01:02:45.089 --> 01:02:48.149 Um, people who are acting a certain way one day of the week. 01:02:48.299 --> 01:02:48.870 Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 01:02:49.109 --> 01:02:49.111 Mm-hmm. 01:02:49.830 --> 01:02:54.270 So you're sitting there in your basement, you don't have the social network anymore. 01:02:54.299 --> 01:02:54.359 Yeah. 01:02:56.370 --> 01:02:57.750 Heavy financial burdens. 01:02:57.779 --> 01:02:57.839 Yeah. 01:02:58.740 --> 01:03:00.060 You're not reaching out to anybody. 01:03:00.270 --> 01:03:00.480 No. 01:03:01.859 --> 01:03:03.149 Some people are reaching out to you. 01:03:03.240 --> 01:03:03.569 Heath Jackson: Yes. 01:03:04.020 --> 01:03:04.230 Okay. 01:03:04.980 --> 01:03:05.879 Travis Bader: And you've got a shotgun. 01:03:06.120 --> 01:03:06.359 Yeah. 01:03:07.500 --> 01:03:07.740 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:03:08.669 --> 01:03:10.620 Travis Bader: And then you've got a friend knocking on the door. 01:03:10.799 --> 01:03:11.069 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:03:12.629 --> 01:03:12.810 Yeah. 01:03:12.810 --> 01:03:14.490 So I, I put the shotgun down. 01:03:15.149 --> 01:03:15.779 Um. 01:03:16.125 --> 01:03:19.544 I went to the door and sort of had these wooden louvers on the window 01:03:19.544 --> 01:03:22.665 of the door, and I, I lifted one to peep through and he saw me. 01:03:23.564 --> 01:03:25.964 So, uh, I couldn't, I couldn't walk away from that. 01:03:26.085 --> 01:03:27.105 I knew you'd seen me. 01:03:28.424 --> 01:03:33.225 I had already written a letter to my parents and a letter to my sister, um, 01:03:33.705 --> 01:03:37.725 you know, leading up to pulling, pulling out the shotgun and that kind of thing. 01:03:38.535 --> 01:03:42.464 And as soon as I opened the door and, and he saw, he's a, 01:03:43.035 --> 01:03:46.035 a 6 5, 6 6, big German guy. 01:03:46.665 --> 01:03:53.234 Um, and he, he, he knew somehow, he knew something was up and he gave me this 01:03:53.234 --> 01:03:58.544 big bear hug, um, lifted me right off the ground and, I mean, I'm not small. 01:03:58.710 --> 01:03:59.189 No you're not. 01:04:00.585 --> 01:04:04.064 So, yeah, that he refused to leave my side. 01:04:04.335 --> 01:04:07.004 Um, it just happened at that morning. 01:04:07.004 --> 01:04:10.694 His, his wife was involved with firearms instruction at, at the 01:04:10.694 --> 01:04:12.794 Chillowak Center for the CBSA. 01:04:13.515 --> 01:04:13.995 Um. 01:04:14.475 --> 01:04:15.884 Her car wouldn't start that morning. 01:04:15.884 --> 01:04:18.435 So he had driven her to work and on the way home stopped in 01:04:18.435 --> 01:04:19.875 Abbotsford where I was at the time. 01:04:20.415 --> 01:04:25.815 Um, just to say hi, and knew I was home, knew I should have been home. 01:04:26.265 --> 01:04:29.205 Mm. And just hadn't given up for whatever reason. 01:04:29.205 --> 01:04:33.735 Um, you know, I, I believe personally that that was, there was definitely 01:04:33.735 --> 01:04:35.505 some divine intervention going on there. 01:04:35.685 --> 01:04:35.865 Mm-hmm. 01:04:36.105 --> 01:04:40.455 I mean, the number of coincidences that had to line up for that to happen, I, 01:04:41.175 --> 01:04:45.045 I don't believe one coincidence most of the time, let alone a handful like that. 01:04:45.165 --> 01:04:48.255 So yeah, he, he stayed with me. 01:04:48.405 --> 01:04:49.605 Uh, back in those days. 01:04:49.605 --> 01:04:51.675 It was hanging autumn, playing Call of Duty together. 01:04:51.675 --> 01:04:56.295 We went out to, to a pub and had a couple drinks and went home. 01:04:56.295 --> 01:05:00.195 He crashed on my couch, um, and wouldn't leave until I promised I 01:05:00.195 --> 01:05:01.575 wasn't gonna do anything stupid. 01:05:02.565 --> 01:05:07.185 And, uh, yeah, he's, he's been like, he's one of those friends 01:05:07.305 --> 01:05:12.795 that is loyal to the core that has been by my side since he met me. 01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:17.040 And, uh, one of my good hunting buddies, a lot of the hunting 01:05:17.040 --> 01:05:18.089 I've done has been with him. 01:05:19.080 --> 01:05:20.460 Uh, just an awesome guy. 01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:21.750 He's a pilot now. 01:05:21.750 --> 01:05:25.140 Mm. Um, and yeah, he, he saved my life. 01:05:25.319 --> 01:05:33.180 And the, the journey from there on was, um, it was a slow sort of pulling back on 01:05:33.180 --> 01:05:36.750 the yoke and pulling out of a nose dive. 01:05:37.529 --> 01:05:40.710 It was slow to begin with and got incrementally faster. 01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:41.580 The more, 01:05:42.180 --> 01:05:42.480 Travis Bader: go ahead. 01:05:43.319 --> 01:05:44.430 What did that look like? 01:05:45.210 --> 01:05:49.560 Heath Jackson: Um, I realized I needed to, I needed to make a shift. 01:05:49.799 --> 01:05:49.950 Hmm. 01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:55.799 Um, I think the, the fog cleared enough that I realized how selfish of 01:05:55.799 --> 01:06:01.620 a decision I had been considering and how, how hurtful that would've been to 01:06:01.650 --> 01:06:03.180 people in my life that I cared about. 01:06:04.110 --> 01:06:07.980 Mm. Um, and I, I didn't want to end up there again. 01:06:08.310 --> 01:06:09.630 So I started. 01:06:11.115 --> 01:06:15.165 I guess, I guess I just, I wanted to change things. 01:06:15.195 --> 01:06:17.175 I wanted different circumstances. 01:06:17.565 --> 01:06:17.685 Mm-hmm. 01:06:17.985 --> 01:06:25.725 And I gained a, I gained a bit of a motivation, um, to, to find what 01:06:25.725 --> 01:06:26.895 that was gonna look like for me. 01:06:27.855 --> 01:06:32.415 And again, I believe by divine intervention, those, those 01:06:32.805 --> 01:06:34.575 pieces fell into place for me. 01:06:34.995 --> 01:06:40.605 Um, I started to, I started to receive tools to add to my toolbox that, 01:06:41.235 --> 01:06:42.855 that I could use in that process. 01:06:43.065 --> 01:06:47.955 And one of those resources was an uncle of mine who had also been 01:06:47.955 --> 01:06:49.545 involved in the Rhodesian Bush war. 01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:55.290 Had moved from South Africa to Australia, very successful, uh, 01:06:55.290 --> 01:06:56.790 guy, very successful in business. 01:06:56.790 --> 01:06:59.760 I'd always had a really strong relationship with him. 01:07:00.300 --> 01:07:04.230 Uh, one of my, my mom's brothers, and he reached out to me. 01:07:04.950 --> 01:07:08.550 I don't know if it was because my, my parents asked him to, I don't, I 01:07:08.550 --> 01:07:13.830 don't know, reached out to me and I trusted him enough that I was willing 01:07:13.830 --> 01:07:15.330 to listen to what he had to say. 01:07:16.080 --> 01:07:21.270 Um, one of the most incredible guys I've, I've ever known. 01:07:22.200 --> 01:07:24.300 And, uh, yeah. 01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:26.725 He started mentoring me from Australia via WhatsApp. 01:07:27.450 --> 01:07:32.370 Um, he would send me video clips and challenge me to, to memorize them or 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:34.740 would, would quiz me on them later. 01:07:34.740 --> 01:07:35.070 And 01:07:35.250 --> 01:07:36.060 Travis Bader: video clips of what? 01:07:36.270 --> 01:07:39.690 Heath Jackson: Uh, so one of, one of the most, uh, standoutish ones mm-hmm. 01:07:39.690 --> 01:07:43.320 Was a commencement speech given by Admiral William McCraven 01:07:43.470 --> 01:07:44.010 Travis Bader: mm-hmm. 01:07:44.011 --> 01:07:45.390 Heath Jackson: Who was the commander of JSO Yes. 01:07:45.450 --> 01:07:46.200 In the States. 01:07:46.410 --> 01:07:49.410 And he was giving a commencement speech to. 01:07:49.770 --> 01:07:52.320 To the graduates from the University of Texas. 01:07:53.310 --> 01:07:55.380 And, um, 01:07:58.020 --> 01:08:02.550 I guess the, the, the sort of framework of that speech had to do with his 01:08:03.030 --> 01:08:08.040 experience of Hell Week, uh, and training for the Navy Seals and the challenges 01:08:08.040 --> 01:08:09.150 that he had gone through there. 01:08:09.150 --> 01:08:11.520 And he broke them down into point form basically. 01:08:12.360 --> 01:08:18.779 Uh, and so yeah, it had to do with me, listen, I listened to that. 01:08:18.779 --> 01:08:22.979 It's about half an hour long and I listened to it probably 50 times. 01:08:23.130 --> 01:08:23.430 Mm-hmm. 01:08:23.939 --> 01:08:28.200 And pulled something new out of it every time and just incredibly 01:08:28.200 --> 01:08:33.960 motivational speech and a huge part of that, a huge component, uh, that sort 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:39.390 of was an overlying theme throughout the whole, the whole speech was, uh, 01:08:39.420 --> 01:08:41.069 the importance of having an impact. 01:08:41.880 --> 01:08:44.399 And it struck me that. 01:08:45.855 --> 01:08:47.415 You know how good of a hunter you are. 01:08:47.415 --> 01:08:52.125 You know, I like 1998, I, I was given a trophy for Zimbabwe Hunter of the 01:08:52.125 --> 01:08:53.865 Year, junior Hunter of the Year. 01:08:54.075 --> 01:08:57.345 And, um, there were, there were accolades like that through my life 01:08:57.345 --> 01:09:00.165 that I'd sort of ba um, earned mm-hmm. 01:09:00.885 --> 01:09:01.725 And treasured. 01:09:01.725 --> 01:09:06.075 And they, they formed part of my identity and there were achievements, 01:09:06.075 --> 01:09:08.445 you know, the experiences I had had. 01:09:08.445 --> 01:09:14.175 Um, and it struck me all those things when you leave are gone. 01:09:14.625 --> 01:09:14.775 Mm-hmm. 01:09:15.135 --> 01:09:16.395 And no one cares about them. 01:09:16.665 --> 01:09:16.755 Mm-hmm. 01:09:17.055 --> 01:09:18.555 And no one's gonna remember them. 01:09:19.185 --> 01:09:25.215 So if, if I wanna leave a legacy and I don't have billions of dollars to, 01:09:25.575 --> 01:09:29.565 you know, to leave to family members, like what kind of impact can I have 01:09:30.045 --> 01:09:31.185 on the people that are following? 01:09:31.185 --> 01:09:33.165 What kind of legacy can I start to build? 01:09:33.825 --> 01:09:39.405 Um, 'cause that's something that will give me purpose and, um. 01:09:40.785 --> 01:09:42.765 And so that, I mean, that's why I'm here mm-hmm. 01:09:43.035 --> 01:09:44.415 Is, is to have an impact. 01:09:44.415 --> 01:09:49.425 If I can impact one person and that one person can take that whatever it was 01:09:49.425 --> 01:09:53.685 from this conversation that impacted them and, and carry it on down the road and 01:09:53.715 --> 01:09:58.305 impact another person, that, that, that becomes an exponential positive impact. 01:09:58.965 --> 01:10:01.395 Um, and that affects change over time. 01:10:02.175 --> 01:10:07.455 And the, several of the, the key points throughout that speech have also 01:10:07.455 --> 01:10:10.305 stuck with me through, over the years. 01:10:10.305 --> 01:10:15.105 I mean, it's been, uh, 15 years now since the accident. 01:10:16.005 --> 01:10:20.625 And, and those themes, those points still carry weight. 01:10:20.715 --> 01:10:23.865 They still impact my day-to-day life. 01:10:23.955 --> 01:10:29.115 Um, things like, for example, he talks about doing an infiltration into a 01:10:29.115 --> 01:10:31.425 harbor at night, undercover of darkness. 01:10:31.455 --> 01:10:33.525 They're dropped off about a kilometer offshore. 01:10:34.245 --> 01:10:39.165 They swim into the harbor with rebreathers underwater, even, even at that time, 01:10:39.165 --> 01:10:41.745 underwater at night with rebreathers. 01:10:41.745 --> 01:10:45.375 There, there is ambient light, starlight moonlight as you get 01:10:45.375 --> 01:10:46.875 into the harbor, the harbor lights. 01:10:47.025 --> 01:10:52.050 Um, but then he, he describes how their mission was to place charges 01:10:52.050 --> 01:10:54.165 on the hull of a boat, uh, of a ship. 01:10:54.225 --> 01:10:59.655 And they, they go under, under the keel of this ship and all of a sudden 01:10:59.835 --> 01:11:01.395 all of the ambient light is gone. 01:11:01.905 --> 01:11:03.795 Mm. And it's absolute pitch black. 01:11:04.485 --> 01:11:12.495 And, um, your ability to fall back on the training you've had on your, on 01:11:12.495 --> 01:11:17.655 your confidence, on your competence, um, and not panic when you can't see 01:11:17.655 --> 01:11:19.120 your hand in front of your face mm-hmm. 01:11:19.395 --> 01:11:24.345 And achieve the, the task is, um, is paramount. 01:11:24.350 --> 01:11:24.600 Mm-hmm. 01:11:24.705 --> 01:11:31.965 And who you are as a Navy seal, how you perform in that moment is all that counts. 01:11:32.730 --> 01:11:37.560 And, and so the, the, um, the sort of parallel to that in, in my life 01:11:37.560 --> 01:11:41.220 was, uh, you're, you're only as good as you are in your darkest hour. 01:11:42.269 --> 01:11:46.890 Mm. You're only as good of a person as you are when the proverbial hits the fan. 01:11:47.460 --> 01:11:52.470 When you, when everything is stripped away from you, when you, you know, 01:11:52.470 --> 01:11:56.519 you don't have hope, you don't have sunshine, you don't have positivity, 01:11:56.880 --> 01:11:58.410 that's when it matters who you are. 01:11:59.130 --> 01:12:02.430 That's when you have an opportunity to show the world and the people 01:12:02.430 --> 01:12:04.530 around you, what you're made of. 01:12:04.740 --> 01:12:05.940 Mm-hmm. 01:12:05.941 --> 01:12:08.190 Um, and, and that's what stays with people. 01:12:09.120 --> 01:12:10.019 Uh, who you are. 01:12:10.019 --> 01:12:14.250 When you know you're in a Jeep with the top down, cruising along a river 01:12:14.250 --> 01:12:17.400 and BC's backwoods, and you've got, you know, some drinks you're gonna 01:12:17.400 --> 01:12:22.021 have at the beach and maybe a cult that you're gonna smoke around a fire or, or 01:12:22.170 --> 01:12:25.920 like when things are good, when you're happy, when you've got a brand new 01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:30.600 relationship and you're excited and, uh, that who you are then doesn't matter. 01:12:31.380 --> 01:12:35.610 Um, what, what matters is, can you, can you be consistent? 01:12:35.610 --> 01:12:38.250 Can you be that kind of a positive person? 01:12:38.849 --> 01:12:46.110 Um, that kind of a solid individual when, when your circumstances are, are shit, you 01:12:46.110 --> 01:12:47.790 know, can you, can you pull it together? 01:12:48.360 --> 01:12:51.180 So that, that's something that really stuck with me, that I 01:12:51.180 --> 01:12:52.440 took as a personal challenge. 01:12:52.440 --> 01:12:54.510 And I mean, there's a biblical theme there too. 01:12:54.540 --> 01:12:58.440 Like the Bible talks about being content in any circumstance. 01:12:58.740 --> 01:12:58.830 Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 01:12:59.160 --> 01:13:01.680 Heath Jackson: Uh, so it was a challenge spiritually for me as well. 01:13:02.160 --> 01:13:02.639 Yes. 01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:05.639 Travis Bader: You know, I, a few things there come to mind. 01:13:05.639 --> 01:13:09.120 I'm reminded of the kids' book where the, uh, these animals are lost in 01:13:09.120 --> 01:13:11.730 the forest and one of them's given up. 01:13:11.910 --> 01:13:15.540 I just can't see my way through and says, well, can, can you see 01:13:15.540 --> 01:13:16.710 the edge of the forest over there? 01:13:16.710 --> 01:13:17.070 No. 01:13:17.370 --> 01:13:19.080 Well, can you see your feet? 01:13:19.139 --> 01:13:19.620 Yes. 01:13:19.620 --> 01:13:20.580 Can you see your next step? 01:13:20.580 --> 01:13:20.970 Yes. 01:13:21.120 --> 01:13:22.019 Well, let's just take that. 01:13:22.230 --> 01:13:22.349 Yeah. 01:13:22.349 --> 01:13:22.710 Right. 01:13:22.860 --> 01:13:23.040 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:13:23.250 --> 01:13:25.080 Travis Bader: And you talk about. 01:13:26.219 --> 01:13:32.519 Purpose, how massive purpose is for, for people to be happy. 01:13:32.549 --> 01:13:32.670 Mm-hmm. 01:13:32.910 --> 01:13:36.179 You know, I've, I actually made a list of things for Mental Health 01:13:36.179 --> 01:13:40.769 Month coming up of, uh, and I had AI rank my list that I made of what's 01:13:40.769 --> 01:13:42.599 gonna give people the most impact. 01:13:42.599 --> 01:13:46.290 And so I'll probably record some videos of that when that comes up. 01:13:46.980 --> 01:13:51.240 But, um, purpose is one of the things I have in there and it, and it's huge. 01:13:51.330 --> 01:13:51.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:51.929 --> 01:13:56.880 Um, Harvard did a study, what's the number one predicate of, uh, happiness 01:13:56.880 --> 01:13:59.009 and contentment in people's lives across. 01:13:59.009 --> 01:14:01.679 It was an 80 year study across all different walks of life, 01:14:01.679 --> 01:14:07.469 all different, uh, ethnicities and backgrounds and beliefs, and 01:14:07.469 --> 01:14:09.059 it's strong social connections. 01:14:09.150 --> 01:14:09.929 Mm-hmm. 01:14:10.349 --> 01:14:17.130 Um, you said it how selfish the decision that you were about to make was, you 01:14:17.130 --> 01:14:18.960 look back on that as being selfish. 01:14:19.695 --> 01:14:25.844 And one of the things that, uh, I have talked to other people about and 01:14:25.844 --> 01:14:29.565 I've, uh, I thought, well, you know, that's, that's a really interesting 01:14:29.565 --> 01:14:31.155 thing that can help give purpose. 01:14:31.215 --> 01:14:37.455 They say taking your own life doesn't solve the pain, it just transfers it. 01:14:37.460 --> 01:14:37.759 Mm-hmm. 01:14:38.655 --> 01:14:44.205 Viktor Frankl had a, um, uh, older man come in, father modern local therapy, man, 01:14:44.205 --> 01:14:49.335 search for meaning, talks about purpose and the rest, and man says, my wife died. 01:14:49.455 --> 01:14:50.835 I just can't carry on living. 01:14:50.955 --> 01:14:54.224 I just, I'm so filled with the grief. 01:14:54.705 --> 01:14:57.165 He says, well, how would your wife feel if you died first? 01:14:57.705 --> 01:14:59.505 So she'd be beside herself. 01:14:59.505 --> 01:15:00.255 It'd be terrible. 01:15:00.255 --> 01:15:01.335 I don't know how she'd go on. 01:15:01.905 --> 01:15:08.625 I says, well, would you want her to carry on her life and be miserable and well no. 01:15:08.625 --> 01:15:08.835 Right? 01:15:08.835 --> 01:15:14.144 And I says, well, you spared your wife that grief by outliving her. 01:15:14.865 --> 01:15:19.185 You have purpose, that is your purpose, is to bear that hardship and bear it in a 01:15:19.185 --> 01:15:21.585 way, like you say in your darkest hours. 01:15:21.825 --> 01:15:23.655 That's what matters, man. 01:15:23.655 --> 01:15:24.195 Leaves. 01:15:25.095 --> 01:15:25.425 Okay. 01:15:25.545 --> 01:15:26.175 Makes sense. 01:15:26.205 --> 01:15:26.835 I'm good to go. 01:15:26.835 --> 01:15:30.855 And that little reframe of where that purpose is for people who 01:15:30.855 --> 01:15:33.825 are thinking of giving up because they don't have the money. 01:15:33.855 --> 01:15:36.975 Because it'll be easier on other people because whatever it might 01:15:36.975 --> 01:15:39.975 be, it doesn't work that way. 01:15:40.035 --> 01:15:40.215 Mm-hmm. 01:15:40.305 --> 01:15:41.445 And it's generational. 01:15:41.655 --> 01:15:44.985 You have kids, you have family members. 01:15:45.165 --> 01:15:49.485 It's one of these things that will has been proven. 01:15:51.285 --> 01:15:52.215 It's an option for you. 01:15:52.215 --> 01:15:53.145 It's an option for me. 01:15:53.745 --> 01:15:54.915 Do you want that for other people? 01:15:54.915 --> 01:15:56.595 And if not, there's purpose. 01:15:56.600 --> 01:15:56.840 Yeah. 01:15:58.125 --> 01:15:58.185 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:15:59.595 --> 01:16:01.815 Travis Bader: Um, I like that. 01:16:01.815 --> 01:16:03.465 And the, how will you be met, remembered? 01:16:04.905 --> 01:16:10.155 That, that's something that I've used with people as well in different circumstances. 01:16:10.155 --> 01:16:11.685 It's something I use with myself, right? 01:16:11.805 --> 01:16:14.235 It's holy crap, things are getting really bad. 01:16:14.235 --> 01:16:15.435 How do I want to be remembered? 01:16:15.465 --> 01:16:18.225 Well, not like, not like how I'm feeling right now, that's for sure. 01:16:18.465 --> 01:16:18.555 Yeah. 01:16:18.560 --> 01:16:22.125 Like I used that with my wife when she was giving birth with our first child. 01:16:22.125 --> 01:16:25.425 And I said, well, she'd always talk about, uh, her grandmother, 01:16:25.425 --> 01:16:26.685 what a tough woman she was. 01:16:27.105 --> 01:16:28.275 I said, tomorrow's gonna come. 01:16:29.895 --> 01:16:34.305 All of this pain will have subsided and you're gonna be able to look back on 01:16:34.305 --> 01:16:38.445 how you acted over the next 27 hours or whatever, what she was a labor for. 01:16:38.595 --> 01:16:40.425 Like maybe, maybe this isn't the right thing. 01:16:40.485 --> 01:16:41.565 It was the right thing for her. 01:16:41.565 --> 01:16:44.925 She says, yeah, I'm not suggesting other people say this to their wives, 01:16:45.675 --> 01:16:47.565 but how do you want to be remembered? 01:16:47.565 --> 01:16:50.775 How do you want your kids and grandkids to remember how you, 01:16:51.135 --> 01:16:52.815 uh, dealt with this difficulty? 01:16:52.845 --> 01:16:52.965 Yeah. 01:16:53.265 --> 01:16:55.875 And she says that reframe changed everything. 01:16:56.625 --> 01:16:57.045 Heath Jackson: Uh, yeah. 01:16:57.045 --> 01:17:00.315 I mean, for me too, there's, this just popped into my head, but. 01:17:01.395 --> 01:17:05.625 Yeah, I grew up playing SLU Scout and SAS with my buddies. 01:17:05.625 --> 01:17:09.945 You know, my dad would, would cut us, um, basically like the outline of a, 01:17:09.945 --> 01:17:15.315 of a, a salt rifle, you know, and, and I'd have, he'd, he'd bolt a screw, 01:17:15.315 --> 01:17:17.565 a, um, a door bolt onto the side. 01:17:17.805 --> 01:17:18.645 So it was bolt action. 01:17:18.645 --> 01:17:18.885 Yeah. 01:17:18.885 --> 01:17:21.135 And, um, we grew up with those toys. 01:17:21.135 --> 01:17:23.265 We didn't have toy guns you could buy really. 01:17:24.195 --> 01:17:27.945 Um, but that was, I wanted, I wanted to be part of what my 01:17:27.945 --> 01:17:29.415 uncles and my dad had been part of. 01:17:29.415 --> 01:17:29.505 Mm-hmm. 01:17:29.535 --> 01:17:33.705 But by the time I was of military age, you know, there was nothing happening. 01:17:33.705 --> 01:17:38.565 There was no, the, the armed forces in Zimbabwe were all black at that stage, you 01:17:38.565 --> 01:17:40.185 know, like there, there was no prospect. 01:17:40.755 --> 01:17:44.055 I came over here, I had an obligation to, to the scholarship. 01:17:44.115 --> 01:17:46.395 You know, like I, there was an expectation there that I go to 01:17:46.395 --> 01:17:49.995 university and outta university, I needed to be making a living. 01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:51.165 I, I couldn't take a break. 01:17:51.735 --> 01:17:52.875 I had grandparents here. 01:17:52.875 --> 01:17:54.495 I was the only one here for a while. 01:17:54.585 --> 01:17:57.615 Um, so it's sticking around to sort of be there for them. 01:17:58.335 --> 01:18:00.225 I, I just never, I miss the boat. 01:18:00.445 --> 01:18:05.125 On, on, uh, joining the Armed Forces as a, as a regular member. 01:18:05.125 --> 01:18:11.155 And I often think, you know, I would've loved to have gone, um, JTF two or, 01:18:11.184 --> 01:18:17.545 or Seals or, um, search and rescue, uh, with, with Canadian forces. 01:18:17.545 --> 01:18:23.934 And, um, all of my, my hobbies, you know, align with that, like scuba diving, 01:18:23.934 --> 01:18:27.474 repelling, parachuting, all, all that kind of stuff is stuff I love to do. 01:18:27.625 --> 01:18:27.835 Hmm. 01:18:27.865 --> 01:18:29.724 So the thought of being paid to do it. 01:18:29.815 --> 01:18:35.155 Um, anyway, there's, there's this sort of overlying theme where I've, I've had 01:18:35.155 --> 01:18:39.054 this sort of imposter syndrome a lot of the time, you know, like I, I don't feel 01:18:39.054 --> 01:18:43.615 like I belong upon among the likes of Seb and some of the other guys you've 01:18:43.615 --> 01:18:47.094 had on your podcast, you know, 'cause there's a, there's a pedigree there. 01:18:47.695 --> 01:18:48.355 Um. 01:18:48.915 --> 01:18:50.835 And I, and I haven't really, yeah. 01:18:50.895 --> 01:18:52.335 You know, some anti-poaching. 01:18:52.785 --> 01:18:53.055 Yeah. 01:18:53.055 --> 01:18:54.135 Some law enforcement. 01:18:54.135 --> 01:18:57.525 But I wasn't an actual cop, you know, I wasn't a police officer. 01:18:57.555 --> 01:18:58.575 I was an ERT. 01:18:59.085 --> 01:19:03.315 Um, so there's, there's this, for a long time I felt like I, 01:19:03.555 --> 01:19:04.935 you know, I, I missed the boat. 01:19:05.415 --> 01:19:05.655 Travis Bader: Hmm. 01:19:05.865 --> 01:19:09.585 Heath Jackson: And, and it struck me when I, when I was pulling, pulling 01:19:09.585 --> 01:19:14.175 outta that nose dive, like, this is my, this is my opportunity to show 01:19:14.175 --> 01:19:15.585 that I'm made of the same stuff. 01:19:16.035 --> 01:19:16.665 Travis Bader: A hundred percent. 01:19:16.695 --> 01:19:20.505 Heath Jackson: This is my chance to show that, um, I have the grit mm-hmm. 01:19:20.750 --> 01:19:24.885 To, to make it through no matter what life throws at me, no matter 01:19:24.885 --> 01:19:26.175 what, stripped away from me. 01:19:26.715 --> 01:19:30.045 You know, I'm, I'm in a place now where I'm, I'm very fortunate. 01:19:30.045 --> 01:19:30.645 I'm blessed. 01:19:30.645 --> 01:19:31.995 I've got a beautiful home. 01:19:31.995 --> 01:19:32.565 I don't own it. 01:19:32.565 --> 01:19:33.105 I rent it. 01:19:33.255 --> 01:19:35.625 Um, but I have a beautiful living place. 01:19:36.135 --> 01:19:38.025 Uh, we have a boat, I have a bike. 01:19:38.085 --> 01:19:39.555 I have a car or a truck. 01:19:40.035 --> 01:19:45.165 Um, you know, I, I'm, I have a lot going for me, but. 01:19:45.510 --> 01:19:47.940 I, I am not disillusioned at all. 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:51.840 I'm very well aware that next week all of that could be gone. 01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:52.380 Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 01:19:52.650 --> 01:19:55.860 Heath Jackson: The, the relationships that I hold dear could be gone. 01:19:56.550 --> 01:20:00.480 None of the stuff that I have around me is permanent. 01:20:00.750 --> 01:20:03.000 It, it will all at some point, fade away. 01:20:03.750 --> 01:20:07.890 And, and I'm okay with that, you know, and that the experience that I went through 01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:15.300 is what enabled me to, to reach that stage where my happiness, my contentment, 01:20:15.300 --> 01:20:21.120 my authenticity is not contingent upon any relationship or material belonging. 01:20:21.210 --> 01:20:21.420 Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 01:20:21.750 --> 01:20:24.330 Heath Jackson: That's the most valuable, one of the most valuable 01:20:24.330 --> 01:20:25.860 lessons that I came out of that with. 01:20:26.700 --> 01:20:27.930 Travis Bader: And that's a hard earned lesson. 01:20:27.990 --> 01:20:28.080 Mm-hmm. 01:20:28.860 --> 01:20:31.440 And that's a difficult one to share with other people if they 01:20:31.440 --> 01:20:33.570 haven't earned it in the same way. 01:20:33.570 --> 01:20:34.830 Some people are smart, right. 01:20:34.830 --> 01:20:38.250 Some people can listen, look at what you've done, pick it up, 01:20:38.310 --> 01:20:39.900 and learn and grow from that. 01:20:40.455 --> 01:20:44.055 I've always been one of those ones who has to touch the stove to learn that it's hot. 01:20:44.055 --> 01:20:44.115 Yeah. 01:20:44.145 --> 01:20:45.345 Oh, that's what you meant by hot? 01:20:45.380 --> 01:20:46.185 Yeah, like hot. 01:20:46.785 --> 01:20:47.085 What do you mean? 01:20:47.085 --> 01:20:47.475 Like hot? 01:20:47.475 --> 01:20:47.775 Hot? 01:20:47.775 --> 01:20:48.795 Like how hot, right. 01:20:48.855 --> 01:20:49.065 Yeah. 01:20:49.125 --> 01:20:50.565 Can I do it real quick? 01:20:50.835 --> 01:20:59.085 Um, but there's, you, you know, you talk about, oh, I wasn't ERT or it wasn't like 01:20:59.115 --> 01:21:05.295 if you're a city cop, well, but you're not, um, uh, clue or oka or, or ERT or, 01:21:05.475 --> 01:21:05.655 Heath Jackson: yeah. 01:21:05.805 --> 01:21:10.095 Travis Bader: Um, if you're ert well you're, you're not SEAL or 01:21:10.095 --> 01:21:12.615 Delta Force JTF two or SaaS, right? 01:21:12.675 --> 01:21:12.855 Yeah. 01:21:13.095 --> 01:21:15.435 If you're SaaS, like, there's always levels to these things. 01:21:15.435 --> 01:21:21.915 I'm, I'm reminded like, uh, Dean Nugent, he was out climbing with Jace Bud and Jace 01:21:21.945 --> 01:21:27.675 High level mountaineer, well accredited ex British Army, um, actually did SCS 01:21:27.675 --> 01:21:32.115 selection a couple of times and uh, uh, Dean, he's just kind of getting into it. 01:21:32.115 --> 01:21:33.705 Girl comes up, says, oh, you're a climber. 01:21:33.705 --> 01:21:35.175 He, oh, no, no, I'm not a climber. 01:21:35.175 --> 01:21:36.615 I Jace over here. 01:21:36.615 --> 01:21:37.395 He's the climber. 01:21:37.395 --> 01:21:38.145 And she's like, well. 01:21:38.610 --> 01:21:39.210 I don't know. 01:21:39.300 --> 01:21:41.550 You got a harness and a helmet on, you're attached to a rope. 01:21:42.300 --> 01:21:43.950 I'm not, you look like a climber to me. 01:21:44.160 --> 01:21:44.310 Right. 01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:46.435 It's like, I guess I'm a climber, right? 01:21:47.280 --> 01:21:47.580 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:21:48.360 --> 01:21:51.420 Travis Bader: There's always gonna be, uh, levels to these things 01:21:51.450 --> 01:21:53.310 Heath Jackson: and we're, we're our own toughest critics. 01:21:53.400 --> 01:21:53.910 Yeah. 01:21:54.060 --> 01:21:57.180 You know, no one, no one looks at us with as much criticism as we do. 01:21:57.570 --> 01:21:57.750 Mm-hmm. 01:21:58.530 --> 01:21:59.970 Travis Bader: And no one cares. 01:22:00.090 --> 01:22:00.390 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:22:00.510 --> 01:22:00.930 Travis Bader: Really. 01:22:01.230 --> 01:22:03.810 Uh, and the things that we do bad, we're so embarrassed 01:22:03.810 --> 01:22:05.700 about or whatever it might be. 01:22:05.700 --> 01:22:07.170 Mm-hmm. 01:22:07.176 --> 01:22:09.810 It's not even other, other people's radar for the most part. 01:22:09.810 --> 01:22:11.940 And if it's on their radar, it's shortly on their radar. 01:22:11.940 --> 01:22:15.120 And the important people, they don't care. 01:22:15.180 --> 01:22:15.420 Right. 01:22:15.450 --> 01:22:15.510 Yeah. 01:22:15.510 --> 01:22:19.740 The people who would pick at the in poke holes and point fingers, 01:22:20.250 --> 01:22:26.850 it's like they say, um, nobody ever craps on the people behind them. 01:22:26.850 --> 01:22:27.120 Right. 01:22:27.630 --> 01:22:29.670 Um, sorry. 01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:31.560 Nobody ever craps on the people ahead of them. 01:22:32.220 --> 01:22:34.470 That makes a, a little bit more sense. 01:22:34.980 --> 01:22:35.610 Um. 01:22:36.570 --> 01:22:37.320 Do I have that one right? 01:22:39.210 --> 01:22:40.710 No, it, it essentially, 01:22:40.740 --> 01:22:40.980 Heath Jackson: yeah. 01:22:40.980 --> 01:22:42.870 People are trying to tear it on to people ahead of them. 01:22:42.930 --> 01:22:43.470 Travis Bader: Thank you. 01:22:43.470 --> 01:22:43.740 Yeah. 01:22:44.055 --> 01:22:44.535 Yes. 01:22:44.535 --> 01:22:44.775 Yeah. 01:22:44.835 --> 01:22:47.625 Uh, the people ahead of you, they wanna see you succeed. 01:22:47.625 --> 01:22:48.014 Right. 01:22:48.585 --> 01:22:50.389 And so the people, well, 01:22:50.389 --> 01:22:50.625 Heath Jackson: the, yeah. 01:22:50.625 --> 01:22:50.715 The 01:22:50.715 --> 01:22:50.985 Travis Bader: people 01:22:50.985 --> 01:22:53.894 Heath Jackson: behind them, they wanna see succeed because they're already there. 01:22:54.285 --> 01:22:54.585 Right. 01:22:54.585 --> 01:22:56.655 The people ahead of them, they want to be where they are. 01:22:56.684 --> 01:22:59.505 So they don't, they don't like their, that they're succeeding. 01:22:59.595 --> 01:23:00.105 I think 01:23:00.165 --> 01:23:04.485 Travis Bader: maybe you made that a lot more eloquent than I, but, but, and 01:23:04.485 --> 01:23:05.894 that's something always to keep in mind. 01:23:05.894 --> 01:23:07.905 Why is this person trying to tear me down? 01:23:08.205 --> 01:23:09.495 Well, it's not because they're ahead of me. 01:23:09.555 --> 01:23:11.775 It's not 'cause they're better than me in any single way. 01:23:12.105 --> 01:23:14.955 It's because they're unable to even be where I'm at. 01:23:15.014 --> 01:23:15.255 Yeah. 01:23:15.465 --> 01:23:19.545 And the only way that they can see themselves as being successful is by 01:23:19.545 --> 01:23:21.974 tearing down the others around them. 01:23:22.035 --> 01:23:22.275 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:23:22.394 --> 01:23:24.315 Those who've who've achieved what they want. 01:23:24.615 --> 01:23:24.915 Yeah. 01:23:25.125 --> 01:23:25.394 Travis Bader: Yeah. 01:23:25.635 --> 01:23:29.025 So that judgment that you get from other people, maybe that's another thing that 01:23:29.025 --> 01:23:30.585 people can keep in the back of their head. 01:23:30.644 --> 01:23:30.735 Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 01:23:31.065 --> 01:23:33.915 Travis Bader: Because we are social creatures and judgment means something. 01:23:33.915 --> 01:23:36.045 And you weren't reaching out for help. 01:23:36.390 --> 01:23:40.290 Why, because you're concerned about how you might look or people judging you. 01:23:40.290 --> 01:23:41.640 Why, why wouldn't you reach out? 01:23:42.600 --> 01:23:44.520 Heath Jackson: You know, there wasn't really a, a cognitive 01:23:44.520 --> 01:23:46.380 exercise attached to that. 01:23:46.380 --> 01:23:48.600 So all I can do really is hypothesize. 01:23:49.350 --> 01:23:52.290 There must have been some sort of psych subconscious. 01:23:53.010 --> 01:23:55.800 I, I'm sure it had something to do with the fact that 01:23:57.960 --> 01:24:03.060 I, number one, I didn't have, um, the, the network around me that I 01:24:03.060 --> 01:24:05.280 felt I could confide into that extent. 01:24:05.610 --> 01:24:10.620 Um, like I said, my parents were outta country for the majority of 01:24:10.620 --> 01:24:13.470 that stretch when it was the worst. 01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:18.210 Um, my parent, my, my sister was far away and they all had lives, 01:24:18.210 --> 01:24:19.950 lives and problems of their own. 01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:22.890 I just didn't, I didn't want to be a burden. 01:24:23.100 --> 01:24:23.460 Travis Bader: Right. 01:24:23.460 --> 01:24:24.450 And I think that's it there. 01:24:24.480 --> 01:24:27.390 Heath Jackson: And I, and a lot of the time, you know, a lot of 01:24:27.390 --> 01:24:32.160 the time I see people reaching out on social media for handouts. 01:24:32.850 --> 01:24:33.570 Um. 01:24:33.930 --> 01:24:37.620 I'm in some groups, some community groups, you know, and it, it's, it amazes 01:24:37.620 --> 01:24:42.210 me, uh, the number of times people will reach out with, with no shame at all. 01:24:42.210 --> 01:24:43.170 And it's repeated. 01:24:43.200 --> 01:24:47.040 Mm. And, you know, it, it, it does not feel authentic to me. 01:24:47.295 --> 01:24:47.715 Mm-hmm. 01:24:48.060 --> 01:24:50.910 And I didn't want to be one of those people. 01:24:51.450 --> 01:24:56.280 I didn't want to expect that because I had made bad decisions. 01:24:56.280 --> 01:24:59.070 Someone else was gonna step up and help me. 01:24:59.910 --> 01:25:05.040 Um, there was, there was a lot, you know, and I, yeah, I, I came to the 01:25:05.040 --> 01:25:09.750 point where I realized that where, where I was ultimately when you 01:25:09.750 --> 01:25:15.840 boil it down enough was solely res, um, was solely a consequence of my 01:25:15.840 --> 01:25:19.110 own decisions, uh, my own actions. 01:25:19.680 --> 01:25:20.430 Mm-hmm. 01:25:20.431 --> 01:25:23.220 The, the kid that ran the stop sign, you know, it wasn't his fault. 01:25:23.400 --> 01:25:26.490 Um, my ex-wife, nothing was her fault. 01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:28.980 Like, not nothing was anyone else's fault but my own. 01:25:28.980 --> 01:25:29.670 Mm-hmm. 01:25:30.090 --> 01:25:30.930 But that was. 01:25:31.590 --> 01:25:35.310 It was a, it was a tough pill to swallow, but it was empowering at the same time. 01:25:35.550 --> 01:25:35.970 Travis Bader: You need 01:25:35.970 --> 01:25:39.690 Heath Jackson: that because I, I realized the flip side of that coin 01:25:39.690 --> 01:25:45.000 was if, if I'm gonna end up where I want to be in life with the set of 01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:51.090 circumstances that I desire for myself, that's also only gonna be my fault. 01:25:51.510 --> 01:25:56.070 It's, it's only gonna be a, a result of my decisions, my actions. 01:25:56.070 --> 01:25:58.950 It's not gonna be a result of handouts, it's not gonna be a 01:25:58.950 --> 01:26:00.630 result of other people's decisions. 01:26:01.080 --> 01:26:06.870 I fully have the potential within myself to place myself where I want 01:26:06.870 --> 01:26:12.180 to be, um, because I fully had the potential in my, within myself, 01:26:12.180 --> 01:26:13.770 to place myself at rock bottom. 01:26:14.970 --> 01:26:19.080 Travis Bader: I think, uh, the, when you talk about the flip side, on that 01:26:19.080 --> 01:26:26.040 flip side as well, is if it's not your fault why these things happened, that 01:26:26.040 --> 01:26:28.890 means you don't have any control over why these things are happening to you. 01:26:28.890 --> 01:26:28.980 Mm-hmm. 01:26:29.265 --> 01:26:32.325 And if you don't have any control and everything you're looking at is like, oh, 01:26:32.325 --> 01:26:35.897 now I'm in an accident and I'm with friend groups leaving out, you're a victim. 01:26:35.902 --> 01:26:36.300 You're the victim. 01:26:36.400 --> 01:26:36.820 Mm-hmm. 01:26:37.240 --> 01:26:41.235 And the faster people can get themselves outta this victim mentality, the 01:26:41.235 --> 01:26:44.925 faster they're able to start getting themselves on track to healing. 01:26:44.985 --> 01:26:45.165 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:26:45.165 --> 01:26:45.855 A hundred percent. 01:26:46.515 --> 01:26:51.915 Travis Bader: Um, you know, there's a, um, a doctor and he says, um, patients will 01:26:51.915 --> 01:26:55.695 come in, they'll say that they're, they're at the end, they're gonna take their life. 01:26:56.565 --> 01:27:00.015 And he says, you know, I don't try and tell them, no, here's 01:27:00.015 --> 01:27:01.005 what you gotta live for. 01:27:01.005 --> 01:27:01.785 Here's what he says. 01:27:01.785 --> 01:27:06.675 I say, that might be a good idea, but now's not the time to make that decision. 01:27:06.885 --> 01:27:09.405 You're probably not thinking clearly in this moment. 01:27:10.095 --> 01:27:13.335 How about you write it down and we'll just take a look at this in, in a month or so? 01:27:13.335 --> 01:27:13.395 Yeah. 01:27:13.395 --> 01:27:17.085 And we'll come back and, and you know, if after a few more visits 01:27:17.085 --> 01:27:19.725 we're looking at this, it still seems like a, like the way to go. 01:27:20.355 --> 01:27:24.705 Maybe it is the idea, but may have a sober second thought. 01:27:24.705 --> 01:27:27.525 And you look at this, he said he hasn't lost anybody. 01:27:27.530 --> 01:27:27.780 Mm-hmm. 01:27:27.880 --> 01:27:28.500 By doing that. 01:27:29.250 --> 01:27:32.910 Um, it gives them control and power and it's not, not like 01:27:32.910 --> 01:27:34.170 it's all being taken from them. 01:27:34.290 --> 01:27:34.500 Yeah. 01:27:34.500 --> 01:27:35.400 It gives 'em agency. 01:27:35.460 --> 01:27:36.540 Gives 'em agency. 01:27:36.600 --> 01:27:36.720 Mm-hmm. 01:27:37.200 --> 01:27:39.480 You had some letters that you wrote to your family. 01:27:39.540 --> 01:27:40.410 Did you hold onto them? 01:27:41.070 --> 01:27:42.630 Heath Jackson: I had sent the one to my parents. 01:27:42.690 --> 01:27:44.970 I don't think I had sent the, the one to my sister. 01:27:45.120 --> 01:27:48.510 Mm. Um, but either way they're their history now. 01:27:48.805 --> 01:27:49.620 Oh, you emailed them? 01:27:49.860 --> 01:27:50.160 Yeah. 01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:50.910 Okay. 01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:51.300 Yeah, 01:27:51.720 --> 01:27:53.730 Travis Bader: I think it was Facebook Messenger or something like 01:27:53.730 --> 01:27:55.620 that with a sober second thought. 01:27:55.620 --> 01:27:58.440 Looking back at them, does it look ridiculous? 01:27:59.190 --> 01:27:59.640 Heath Jackson: No. 01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:01.440 Uh, I wouldn't call it ridiculous. 01:28:01.890 --> 01:28:04.500 Um, irrational. 01:28:04.770 --> 01:28:05.130 Travis Bader: Okay. 01:28:05.130 --> 01:28:11.550 Heath Jackson: Maybe, um, you know, it wasn't a cry for help, it was just, 01:28:12.930 --> 01:28:14.640 it was an expression of gratitude. 01:28:15.300 --> 01:28:19.200 Um, an apology in advance, I guess. 01:28:20.550 --> 01:28:25.800 Um, yeah, it wasn't ridiculous because it was, it was relevant at the time. 01:28:26.370 --> 01:28:29.880 Uh, it was heartfelt and, and it wasn't a cry for help. 01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:31.650 It was, it was authentic. 01:28:32.790 --> 01:28:38.610 Um, the decision, again, selfish because it was only me I was thinking 01:28:38.610 --> 01:28:43.380 of, you know, like that that decision would've been to alleviate my own pain. 01:28:43.559 --> 01:28:47.670 Mm. Um, and, and situation. 01:28:47.670 --> 01:28:50.400 But it, like you said, it would've transferred it to someone else. 01:28:50.400 --> 01:28:53.880 So by definition, a selfish decision. 01:28:54.269 --> 01:28:56.429 Um, yeah. 01:28:56.429 --> 01:29:03.630 I, I mean, I think you, you can ask pretty much anyone what they felt when they were 01:29:03.630 --> 01:29:09.089 selfless, like what sort of feelings they had when they did something selfless. 01:29:09.660 --> 01:29:13.200 They can recall a self selfless experience, something they did 01:29:13.349 --> 01:29:16.019 to, to help someone else without any benefit to themselves. 01:29:16.980 --> 01:29:21.945 Um, I. Uh, in my experience, that's always a gratifying feeling. 01:29:22.695 --> 01:29:28.425 It's always gratifying to sacrifice for someone else to, to do something 01:29:28.725 --> 01:29:31.695 for someone else, um, is a, 01:29:31.905 --> 01:29:33.015 Travis Bader: is a rewarding thing. 01:29:33.855 --> 01:29:35.055 So, yeah, I agree. 01:29:35.175 --> 01:29:39.825 I, I think that mentality of, uh, everyone likes to use it, well, I gotta, 01:29:39.825 --> 01:29:41.535 I gotta take care of me first, right? 01:29:41.535 --> 01:29:41.625 Mm-hmm. 01:29:41.865 --> 01:29:47.145 Um, it's just like that airplane, uh, you know, airbags come out, gotta 01:29:47.145 --> 01:29:49.995 get your own airbag on, take care of yourself so you can take care of others. 01:29:49.995 --> 01:29:50.235 Right? 01:29:51.435 --> 01:29:56.625 Well, I think people take that analogy too far and sometimes there's a lot 01:29:56.625 --> 01:30:03.615 of value in helping somebody else, and you'll re this isn't an airbag analogy. 01:30:03.705 --> 01:30:05.235 I'm not just taking care of me first. 01:30:05.235 --> 01:30:09.675 If I can help take care of you, I all of a sudden start feeling, oh, geez, 01:30:09.705 --> 01:30:11.295 we both got something outta that one. 01:30:11.295 --> 01:30:11.475 Right. 01:30:11.475 --> 01:30:11.895 Well, you have 01:30:11.895 --> 01:30:12.375 Heath Jackson: purpose. 01:30:12.645 --> 01:30:13.155 Travis Bader: Right? 01:30:13.185 --> 01:30:13.485 Heath Jackson: Right. 01:30:13.485 --> 01:30:17.115 And you're, I mean, uh, again, I lost, I lost the. 01:30:17.700 --> 01:30:20.790 It was a really, I promise all the viewers, it would've been an epiphany. 01:30:21.120 --> 01:30:25.080 It was a fantastic thought that I just had that just flew outta my head. 01:30:25.200 --> 01:30:25.740 Um, 01:30:28.380 --> 01:30:28.680 yeah. 01:30:28.740 --> 01:30:31.950 Hopefully it'll come back to me, but, um, 01:30:34.560 --> 01:30:36.180 Travis Bader: so I should watch my words. 01:30:36.300 --> 01:30:42.030 Uh, when I say, when you look back on the letter, was it, uh, ridiculous and I guess 01:30:42.030 --> 01:30:45.960 I, I should have, uh, left that open-ended and asked what your thoughts were. 01:30:45.960 --> 01:30:50.280 When you look back on that, I don't, for one second, think it would be ridiculous. 01:30:50.280 --> 01:30:50.281 Mm-hmm. 01:30:50.345 --> 01:30:53.130 But I would think that looking back with a sober second thought this 01:30:53.130 --> 01:30:54.630 time, you'd say, what was I thinking? 01:30:54.990 --> 01:30:55.260 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:30:55.260 --> 01:30:58.110 I, I, I took that to mean you were asking if I regretted it right? 01:30:58.170 --> 01:30:58.470 Yeah. 01:30:59.130 --> 01:30:59.280 Yeah. 01:30:59.280 --> 01:31:00.960 I mean, I don't regret that exercise. 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:02.610 What I regret was the selfishness. 01:31:02.910 --> 01:31:03.360 Um. 01:31:04.260 --> 01:31:07.230 Yeah, you were, there's, sorry. 01:31:07.380 --> 01:31:10.860 Um, you were talking about how people take it too far to be Yes. 01:31:10.860 --> 01:31:12.030 To look after yourself first. 01:31:12.600 --> 01:31:16.170 The thought that I had on that was this, there's this whole movement, like you 01:31:16.170 --> 01:31:21.000 see it all over the place, especially, um, like single women on social media. 01:31:21.030 --> 01:31:21.120 Mm-hmm. 01:31:21.630 --> 01:31:23.100 Talking about self-love. 01:31:23.850 --> 01:31:24.420 I see that a lot. 01:31:24.420 --> 01:31:24.660 Yes. 01:31:24.660 --> 01:31:27.150 It's, it's like this movement, you know, self-love. 01:31:27.150 --> 01:31:30.840 If, if, if something isn't benefiting me, I'm cutting it outta my life. 01:31:30.930 --> 01:31:31.020 Mm-hmm. 01:31:31.260 --> 01:31:33.030 Um, where's your purpose? 01:31:33.690 --> 01:31:33.960 Travis Bader: Yeah. 01:31:34.350 --> 01:31:38.490 Heath Jackson: Like what if, if you're, if your only purpose is looking 01:31:38.490 --> 01:31:40.980 after yourself, that's not purpose. 01:31:41.700 --> 01:31:44.460 Like you're, our, our purpose is in community. 01:31:44.460 --> 01:31:47.250 Our purpose is in supporting people that need it. 01:31:47.790 --> 01:31:48.780 Um, yeah. 01:31:48.780 --> 01:31:52.170 You know, I think, I think a lot of it is just terminology. 01:31:52.230 --> 01:31:53.010 It's verbiage. 01:31:53.400 --> 01:31:55.620 Um, people, self-love is a good thing. 01:31:55.625 --> 01:31:55.795 Sure. 01:31:55.799 --> 01:32:00.840 Self-centeredness is not, and sometimes self-centeredness is labeled as self-love. 01:32:01.410 --> 01:32:02.700 And so people embrace it. 01:32:02.910 --> 01:32:08.070 Just like a lot of other things in, in society these days that people place 01:32:08.070 --> 01:32:11.040 a, you know, rainbows and daisies Sure. 01:32:11.040 --> 01:32:14.790 Sunshine and butterflies label on something, suddenly it becomes acceptable. 01:32:14.790 --> 01:32:19.230 Mm. Um, but it doesn't change the reality of what that thing is. 01:32:19.889 --> 01:32:22.950 And, and it's the same, same with self-centeredness. 01:32:22.980 --> 01:32:24.630 You know, like there's a fine line. 01:32:24.870 --> 01:32:29.219 It's important to, it's important to look after yourself, but it's just as 01:32:29.309 --> 01:32:34.019 important to look after other people and be available and, and step up. 01:32:34.290 --> 01:32:36.690 Um, because it's fulfilling. 01:32:36.870 --> 01:32:39.420 Like, it, it gives you, it's rewarding. 01:32:40.290 --> 01:32:42.660 It, it is self-love to help other people. 01:32:43.559 --> 01:32:46.485 Travis Bader: I think that's a. A very good distinction. 01:32:47.174 --> 01:32:48.974 You were put on medication. 01:32:49.155 --> 01:32:49.245 Heath Jackson: Mm-hmm. 01:32:49.964 --> 01:32:51.525 Travis Bader: And you took yourself off that medication? 01:32:51.554 --> 01:32:51.974 Cold Turkey. 01:32:51.974 --> 01:32:52.035 Yeah. 01:32:52.035 --> 01:32:52.995 How long were you on it for? 01:33:01.155 --> 01:33:03.075 Heath Jackson: About four, four years. 01:33:03.165 --> 01:33:05.294 Travis Bader: That'd be for the major depressive? 01:33:05.594 --> 01:33:08.235 Probably SSRI or SI Anxiety. 01:33:08.355 --> 01:33:08.684 Yeah. 01:33:08.955 --> 01:33:09.375 Heath Jackson: Okay. 01:33:09.585 --> 01:33:12.884 Yeah, there were two, two or three meds on he pretty heavy 01:33:12.884 --> 01:33:16.934 doses and I took everything I had and flushed it on the toilet. 01:33:17.535 --> 01:33:17.924 Travis Bader: When? 01:33:17.924 --> 01:33:18.195 Right. 01:33:18.705 --> 01:33:19.575 Heath Jackson: Immediately following? 01:33:19.580 --> 01:33:20.924 No, no, it was sometime after. 01:33:21.134 --> 01:33:21.405 Okay. 01:33:21.554 --> 01:33:23.565 Yeah, it was part of the process for me. 01:33:24.434 --> 01:33:28.365 Um, yeah, I had moved at that stage, so I know it was a while later. 01:33:28.485 --> 01:33:28.695 Okay. 01:33:28.695 --> 01:33:34.004 And yeah, I just, I just flushed all of it and it was, I would not recommend that. 01:33:34.155 --> 01:33:36.315 I would recommend that you sort of. 01:33:37.035 --> 01:33:40.155 Talk to your doctor, wean yourself off of it, like do it the right way. 01:33:40.575 --> 01:33:43.395 Um, but for me, that was, that was what I did. 01:33:43.515 --> 01:33:47.235 I just flushed it and I was like, no, I'm, I'm dealing with this myself. 01:33:47.325 --> 01:33:51.405 I've got the agency, I've, I've got, I've got the reins in my mind. 01:33:51.615 --> 01:33:52.005 Travis Bader: Hmm. 01:33:52.395 --> 01:33:54.975 Heath Jackson: I'm not gonna allow my thoughts to dictate, to me, I'm not 01:33:54.975 --> 01:34:00.135 gonna allow medication to, to alter my personality and my, my frame of mind. 01:34:01.095 --> 01:34:02.085 Uh, I got this. 01:34:02.235 --> 01:34:07.395 So, and I did, you know, I, for a week or so, I had little electric jolts going up 01:34:07.395 --> 01:34:09.765 my spine and other withdrawal symptoms. 01:34:09.765 --> 01:34:12.135 But, but it was a smart choice for me. 01:34:12.315 --> 01:34:12.525 Okay. 01:34:12.555 --> 01:34:14.805 Um, because it, it was me. 01:34:14.805 --> 01:34:19.425 It was, I'm the one that, that handled the, the struggles I was having. 01:34:19.425 --> 01:34:20.925 Not, not the medication. 01:34:20.985 --> 01:34:22.815 Like I didn't, I didn't want to crutch. 01:34:22.965 --> 01:34:23.265 Mm-hmm. 01:34:23.955 --> 01:34:26.595 Um, I wanted to face it head on. 01:34:27.135 --> 01:34:27.435 Mm-hmm. 01:34:27.675 --> 01:34:31.905 And yeah, I mean, like we talked about before, a lot of people take, um. 01:34:34.485 --> 01:34:37.995 Well, not prognosis, but um, diagnosis as a life sentence. 01:34:38.000 --> 01:34:38.220 Travis Bader: Yeah. 01:34:38.225 --> 01:34:38.355 Yeah. 01:34:38.355 --> 01:34:39.285 And they wear it, 01:34:39.315 --> 01:34:40.785 Heath Jackson: they surrender themselves to that. 01:34:40.785 --> 01:34:41.805 This is my reality. 01:34:41.835 --> 01:34:44.235 I'm, I have anxiety, I have depression. 01:34:44.235 --> 01:34:44.295 Yeah. 01:34:44.325 --> 01:34:46.755 I have PTSD, I have whatever. 01:34:47.055 --> 01:34:48.465 Ah, you, you don't have to keep it. 01:34:48.645 --> 01:34:49.455 You're feeling it. 01:34:49.485 --> 01:34:49.815 Sure. 01:34:49.815 --> 01:34:50.055 Yeah. 01:34:50.055 --> 01:34:50.745 You're feeling it. 01:34:50.745 --> 01:34:52.995 It's to help you identify what it is you're going through. 01:34:53.145 --> 01:34:53.445 Travis Bader: Right. 01:34:53.505 --> 01:34:56.475 Heath Jackson: Um, but you, you don't have to carry that your whole life. 01:34:56.505 --> 01:34:59.265 You, you ev I, I'm a firm believer. 01:34:59.295 --> 01:35:01.425 I'm sure there are experts out there that'll disagree. 01:35:01.875 --> 01:35:07.155 I'm a firm believer that everyone has the ability to take the reins 01:35:07.155 --> 01:35:10.215 of their thoughts, to not allow their thoughts to dictate to them. 01:35:10.559 --> 01:35:15.179 To, to start filtering out the negative and shift their mindset. 01:35:15.629 --> 01:35:15.780 Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 01:35:16.290 --> 01:35:18.870 I said something similar. 01:35:18.870 --> 01:35:23.759 I was asked to give a talk for a university in California by a doctor 01:35:23.759 --> 01:35:29.790 for his class, and I gave a talk and, uh, the doctor pointed at a few 01:35:29.790 --> 01:35:31.860 things that said, okay, yeah, okay. 01:35:31.860 --> 01:35:33.059 Maybe not everybody. 01:35:33.059 --> 01:35:33.299 Right. 01:35:33.299 --> 01:35:38.940 There's always gonna be people who come from, um, or severely disabled 01:35:38.940 --> 01:35:45.540 who, uh, won't be able to, uh, control certain things in the same 01:35:45.540 --> 01:35:47.280 way that perhaps I'm relaying. 01:35:47.490 --> 01:35:48.209 Fair enough. 01:35:48.540 --> 01:35:50.730 The medication thing was another interesting one. 01:35:51.195 --> 01:35:54.675 I think that medication can be an important tool mm-hmm. 01:35:54.975 --> 01:35:59.805 For somebody who's in crisis for a quick stop gap. 01:35:59.835 --> 01:36:04.785 And unfortunately, uh, it isn't, I don't see it always used that way. 01:36:05.115 --> 01:36:09.255 Uh, medication's supposed to be something that's used in conjunction with a 01:36:09.255 --> 01:36:14.085 lifestyle change, finding purpose, uh, uh, exercise, diet, all of these other 01:36:14.085 --> 01:36:15.585 things that kind of go along with it. 01:36:15.585 --> 01:36:18.165 And then you wean off and, and go forward. 01:36:18.975 --> 01:36:21.345 I look at our medical system. 01:36:21.375 --> 01:36:23.265 I was given my doctor hell a while ago. 01:36:23.265 --> 01:36:26.055 I was like, why don't you just like my knee? 01:36:26.115 --> 01:36:26.865 What the hell's wrong? 01:36:27.045 --> 01:36:28.245 Send me in for imaging. 01:36:28.275 --> 01:36:29.655 Let's figure out what's going on here. 01:36:29.655 --> 01:36:31.695 And like, I don't want to take medication. 01:36:31.695 --> 01:36:33.795 I don't want to up these different pills for the pain. 01:36:33.795 --> 01:36:35.985 Let's just figure out what the pain is and let's address that. 01:36:35.985 --> 01:36:36.285 Right? 01:36:36.465 --> 01:36:36.615 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:36:36.615 --> 01:36:36.616 Yeah. 01:36:37.035 --> 01:36:38.445 Travis Bader: He says, well, that's not how we're taught. 01:36:38.475 --> 01:36:39.255 I'm like, what do you mean? 01:36:39.615 --> 01:36:41.835 He says, well, we're, we're taught to address a symptom. 01:36:41.835 --> 01:36:46.155 If there's no more symptom than the problem solved, I says, so 01:36:46.185 --> 01:36:47.655 does that mean like I gotta. 01:36:48.135 --> 01:36:51.705 What to take these antiinflammants for my knee for the rest of my life so that they 01:36:51.705 --> 01:36:54.555 get rid of that symptom and well, yeah. 01:36:54.675 --> 01:36:57.135 I said that's, that's not an approach that makes sense to me. 01:36:57.135 --> 01:36:57.435 Right. 01:36:57.435 --> 01:36:57.495 Yeah. 01:36:57.495 --> 01:37:01.365 And I think that same approach is being used often with mental health problems. 01:37:01.845 --> 01:37:02.145 Oh. 01:37:02.145 --> 01:37:03.585 It's not, it's not showing the symptom. 01:37:04.065 --> 01:37:09.045 And after a while the body adapts to the medication and, and then they're 01:37:09.045 --> 01:37:12.645 prescribing a higher dosage or a different type so that they can look at these 01:37:12.645 --> 01:37:15.855 symptoms and the meds will have their own symptoms that go along with that. 01:37:15.855 --> 01:37:15.915 Yeah. 01:37:15.915 --> 01:37:17.415 And then they sub, they subscribe 01:37:17.415 --> 01:37:18.045 Heath Jackson: things to deal with 01:37:18.045 --> 01:37:18.765 Travis Bader: those symptoms. 01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:19.290 Yeah. 01:37:19.295 --> 01:37:19.755 Yeah. 01:37:19.905 --> 01:37:22.365 And it, and it's a bit of an endless cycle, I think. 01:37:22.365 --> 01:37:27.285 Um, I think people have way more personal agency then they're led to belief. 01:37:27.315 --> 01:37:27.405 Mm-hmm. 01:37:27.645 --> 01:37:32.895 I think there's a reason why there's a learned helplessness within society, and 01:37:33.075 --> 01:37:36.405 I think the more people that can adopt. 01:37:37.754 --> 01:37:41.865 Ownership mindset, like what you're talking about, and realize the level of 01:37:41.865 --> 01:37:45.224 control that they have, even over small things in their life, which will grow 01:37:45.224 --> 01:37:49.724 into bigger, uh, the more they realize maybe they don't really have problems, 01:37:50.355 --> 01:37:52.155 maybe their environment needs to change. 01:37:52.155 --> 01:37:54.195 Maybe what they have is actually a gift. 01:37:54.195 --> 01:37:54.405 Right. 01:37:55.035 --> 01:37:56.594 Just a different way of looking at it. 01:37:56.775 --> 01:37:57.014 Heath Jackson: Yep. 01:37:57.165 --> 01:37:57.764 Absolutely. 01:37:58.875 --> 01:38:00.794 Travis Bader: Is there anything that we haven't talked about 01:38:00.794 --> 01:38:01.815 that we should be talking about? 01:38:02.025 --> 01:38:02.775 Heath Jackson: Probably a lot. 01:38:03.615 --> 01:38:04.335 I think there is. 01:38:04.335 --> 01:38:08.235 I'm sure I'll, I'm sure I'll think back and, you know, like think, oh, 01:38:08.235 --> 01:38:11.235 I wish I'd told this story about the lion or the elephant or whatever. 01:38:11.235 --> 01:38:13.605 And you have a story about a lion in the elephant. 01:38:13.815 --> 01:38:13.934 Oh yeah. 01:38:13.934 --> 01:38:15.105 I've got, I've got tons of stories. 01:38:15.344 --> 01:38:17.955 Um, yeah, I'm sure there are lots of things that'll come 01:38:17.955 --> 01:38:19.905 to mind, but I'm, yeah, you 01:38:19.905 --> 01:38:20.835 Travis Bader: can't cover everything. 01:38:20.924 --> 01:38:25.094 So it is funny, uh, the elephant one, I remember years ago, I think it was in 01:38:25.094 --> 01:38:28.065 my early twenties, and I saw this, um. 01:38:28.640 --> 01:38:31.245 There's a company, a buddy says, oh, you gotta check this one. 01:38:31.245 --> 01:38:33.675 Oh, they'll teach you how to be a businessman without having 01:38:33.675 --> 01:38:34.935 to go through business school. 01:38:34.935 --> 01:38:40.575 And so you're going through these different exercises and, and uh, some 01:38:40.575 --> 01:38:41.625 of 'em are like, what do you wanna do? 01:38:41.625 --> 01:38:43.185 I'm like, I kinda wanna ride an elephant. 01:38:43.185 --> 01:38:43.995 I think that'd be cool. 01:38:44.025 --> 01:38:45.465 So I'm writing this stuff down, right? 01:38:45.465 --> 01:38:47.385 And anyways, I got filed away. 01:38:47.385 --> 01:38:52.515 I don't know where years later someone's asking in a, a more official capacity. 01:38:52.995 --> 01:38:54.195 Well, do you have any business plans? 01:38:54.195 --> 01:38:57.315 I'm like, well, not really like any work event, well, I got this stuff 01:38:57.315 --> 01:38:58.245 and he is looking through this. 01:38:58.305 --> 01:38:59.805 I wanna ride an elephant, Travis. 01:39:00.315 --> 01:39:01.245 This isn't business plan. 01:39:01.970 --> 01:39:03.525 It's like, all right, fine. 01:39:04.395 --> 01:39:04.455 Yeah. 01:39:05.745 --> 01:39:08.145 And, and you do work a lot of work trying to help people 01:39:08.145 --> 01:39:10.995 who are, um, victims of abuse. 01:39:11.535 --> 01:39:11.925 Heath Jackson: Yeah. 01:39:11.925 --> 01:39:15.885 I mean that True haven is still relatively speaking in its infancy. 01:39:16.485 --> 01:39:17.955 Um, but it's a fantastic. 01:39:18.765 --> 01:39:19.725 Cause mm-hmm. 01:39:19.725 --> 01:39:21.495 Uh, it's something that I'm very passionate about. 01:39:21.765 --> 01:39:28.185 I've, I've, I think, I mean, it's a, it's a multiplicity of, of, um, 01:39:28.455 --> 01:39:32.115 contributing factors that have, that sort of made me that way. 01:39:32.805 --> 01:39:40.785 Um, my dad, you know, my dad's like a, he's just a solid man, you know, he, he 01:39:40.785 --> 01:39:45.735 raised me with a respect, um, for women and, and respect for wildlife and animals. 01:39:46.335 --> 01:39:52.665 Mm. Um, and I, my experience in boarding school, being bullied, seeing other 01:39:52.665 --> 01:39:58.575 people sort of victimized, um, growing up in Africa, you know, some of the stuff 01:39:58.575 --> 01:40:03.135 you see there, people, the abuse, some people go through, and the hardship. 01:40:03.135 --> 01:40:10.695 And, um, I guess having a, having had somewhat of a unique, um, 01:40:10.875 --> 01:40:13.995 perspective and view into, um. 01:40:15.035 --> 01:40:21.780 Hu humanity and the, the common themes that carry across different races and 01:40:21.780 --> 01:40:28.230 creeds and cultures and, um, the fact that people hurt no matter what color they are. 01:40:28.440 --> 01:40:28.800 Travis Bader: Sure. 01:40:29.040 --> 01:40:31.200 Heath Jackson: Uh, it just, there's a, there's a level of compassion 01:40:31.200 --> 01:40:35.760 there, and for women, for animals, for other people, for people in, in 01:40:35.760 --> 01:40:37.650 different difficult circumstances. 01:40:37.680 --> 01:40:45.840 And being able to, um, being able to use my skillset, um, that I've, you 01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:49.320 know, partly I was born with part, part natural ability, part training. 01:40:49.350 --> 01:40:51.870 Like there's a lot of training that I've gone through over the years 01:40:51.870 --> 01:40:57.000 for different jobs, different, um, positions I've filled, um, 01:40:57.450 --> 01:40:58.800 that I'm able to bring to bear. 01:40:59.760 --> 01:41:03.930 And, um, the ability to, to remain composed in the face of someone 01:41:03.930 --> 01:41:07.320 that's red and angry and screaming and thinks they're, you know, like 01:41:07.320 --> 01:41:09.960 they're, they're, they can take anyone. 01:41:10.170 --> 01:41:16.455 Um, I, I. Being able to bring that to a cir, a circumstance, a situation 01:41:16.455 --> 01:41:20.265 where someone's in fear for their life or the fear for their kids' lives. 01:41:20.865 --> 01:41:25.425 And, um, and sort of, it's almost like bio osmosis. 01:41:25.425 --> 01:41:31.050 You convey some of that, uh, confidence and, and, um, calmness to people 01:41:31.050 --> 01:41:35.655 that are going through, um, crisis and, and being threatened by someone 01:41:35.655 --> 01:41:37.215 who's really just a big coward. 01:41:37.425 --> 01:41:37.575 Mm-hmm. 01:41:38.115 --> 01:41:40.330 Um, that's really rewarding for me. 01:41:40.430 --> 01:41:40.650 So. 01:41:41.490 --> 01:41:44.580 Yeah, being able to mentor, same thing. 01:41:44.820 --> 01:41:48.540 Um, being able to mentor people that are, that are facing adversity that are 01:41:48.540 --> 01:41:52.050 in their darkest hour, that, that don't know where to turn, don't know who to 01:41:52.050 --> 01:41:56.940 trust, to, to be authentic with and expose their, you know, the things they're not 01:41:56.940 --> 01:41:58.710 the most proud of about their lives. 01:41:59.670 --> 01:42:04.320 Um, you know, I'm, I may not have a lot to, to bring to bear in terms 01:42:04.320 --> 01:42:08.610 of financial resources and that kind of thing, but I do have experiences. 01:42:08.640 --> 01:42:13.530 I do have an idea of what a, um, shifting your paradigm, 01:42:13.980 --> 01:42:15.570 shifting your mindset can do. 01:42:16.530 --> 01:42:19.950 And I love to be able to, to impart that with other people. 01:42:19.950 --> 01:42:22.350 And in the process, it builds a relationship. 01:42:22.680 --> 01:42:26.100 Mm. Uh, builds the kind of relationships that show up at your door and knock on 01:42:26.100 --> 01:42:27.930 your window and when you need it the most. 01:42:28.590 --> 01:42:30.180 So, um, yeah. 01:42:30.180 --> 01:42:31.620 And it gives me purpose. 01:42:31.650 --> 01:42:35.940 So, yeah, I, I, I love being able to be involved with those kinds of causes. 01:42:36.465 --> 01:42:39.525 Travis Bader: Well, Heath, I'm gonna put links in the description to your 01:42:39.525 --> 01:42:44.235 social media so people can find a way to contact you Yeah, if they wanted 01:42:44.235 --> 01:42:48.525 to, and as well as to True Haven, so they can see those resources. 01:42:49.215 --> 01:42:54.165 Thank you very much for sharing your story on the Silver Pole Podcast, and I 01:42:54.434 --> 01:42:56.715 really appreciate coming here to do that. 01:42:57.525 --> 01:42:58.455 I really enjoyed the conversation. 01:42:58.815 --> 01:42:59.325 Heath Jackson: I did too. 01:42:59.325 --> 01:43:00.405 Thank you very much, Travis. 01:43:00.460 --> 01:43:01.030 It's an honor.