Anja: Joining me today is Katie Ananina, more famously known as Katie the Russian.
Katie was the founder of Plan B and has recently acquired Citizen
X. Katie, welcome to the show.
Katie: Thank you.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
We finally found the time with our non-overlapping,
non-overlapping time zones.
Anja: Yes, exactly.
I really appreciate it and yeah, especially knowing that you have a family
and you're trying to squeeze me in.
Thank you so much for that.
Um, but I wanted to start with maybe let's kick off with, you know, uh, an overview
of what it is that Citizen X does.
Katie: Yeah.
So.
Very quickly, six years ago, uh, out of my own passion and out of me just
constantly shit posting to Bitcoiners on Twitter, telling that everybody
needs a second passport, I basically realized that over time I gained
expertise and I gained following.
And, uh, people wanted to come to me and ask for a product,
which I didn't have at the time.
So, out of this passion, um.
Was born Plan B, passport.
And then I was running this business for a while and just this year, early this year,
I was acquired by Citizen X, which was my probably closest competitor at the time,
at least in terms of the, our beliefs and our principles, um, in this, in industry.
So now I'm a CMO of Citizen X, where we help people all over the
world to obtain second citizenship.
We basically see citizenship as an asset class, a new asset class.
Um, and of course as a hedge against government overreach, uh, your emergency
plan in terms of like in case of a civil unrest or any, any sort of crisis.
So that's what we help people do.
We help them to obtain second citizenship or residency for their benefit.
Anja: Awesome.
And I'd love to, before we get into, you know, the, the work that
you do, I'd love to know more about your history and your early life.
So.
Born and bred in Russia.
Katie: Yeah.
Yeah.
Born and raised there.
All the experiences that I had in my, I would say even childhood,
kinda led me to be AER since I was, so when I was nine I started sailing
and this hobby got out of hands.
By the age of 11 I got into Russian national team, so I started
traveling the world with the team.
All paid by Russian government.
You know, like I'm on a national team, I'm being invited to Europe for European
cap, and my Visa is getting denied.
And because I'm Russian, I have a very weak passport in
terms of visa free travel.
I need to constantly obtain visas.
I'm constantly getting denied in this Visas, which.
Really weird because I'm like a teenager traveling with a coach and an entire
national team, and somehow I'm the one getting rejected in Visas constantly.
So I don't know.
Um, I was chosen to do this work early on.
And then the same experiences in the world of finance, um, of
like seeing the currency in my national currency devalue over time.
So significantly, like two hyperinflations in my lifetime by
the age of 25, like something is off.
And all this experiences basically led me to become a Bitcoin
and to become a passport lady.
Um, so yeah, I was, it was, it was meant to be.
I just needed to learn enough about both of those concepts in order for
it to click and it clicked pretty quickly because again, I was, I was
prepared for all that I was, I was.
Black pilled on the financial system early on.
Anja: Yeah.
And, and that's kind of also been my experience as well throughout life.
Um, you know, people who come from countries with, you know, political
unrest and have experienced things like hyperinflation, it's kind of instills,
um, a sense of fragility in the.
Him from a very young age and yeah, even though I was, you know, not responsible
for the family money at the time, I do vividly remember, um, going to the
shop with like million dollar notes to buy bread and then the next month.
You know, it wasn't enough and we had to use, I think, the German
currency as a store of value.
So people would sort of exchange that.
That was the, the closest currency to us.
Um, you know, regionally was, did Russia use like a different currency
as well as a store of value?
I
Katie: mean, we were under, under the iron curtain, so it's not that
we could have easy access to, let's say dollars or anything like that.
Um, yeah, so in, in a sense, like in the time of hyperinflation, people always
tried to buy metal and real estate.
We were in a communism, so it's not that you could just go on a free
market and randomly buy real estate.
That's not how it worked.
So people would just hold their fiat under the mattress and uh, this
fiat would just literally disappear.
You know what's funny?
People like us, like even if you didn't experience it
firsthand, you have this DNA.
Like it's in your DNA because your parents, your grandparents
experienced it and then they passed down those experiences.
And if you look at the Bitcoin community, especially girls in the Bitcoin
community, it's like you, me, Carla from Romania, Natalie from Poland, like.
So many girls who have Eastern European roots.
Um, and part of it is probably because again, we have those stories that will
stick with us from few more generations until, until we forget like generational
trauma that made us Bitcoiners.
So yeah, that I can definitely see that.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
That is so relatable.
Um, but yeah, more about on, on your business side of things.
So just to give you a bit of an overview, Australia is very divided at the moment.
Um, we've got a lot of the population thinking that we are headed towards
being like right wing extremists and some people are referencing
the us, other people are thinking.
Uh, that, you know, we're turning towards left stream le le left-wing extremism
and are following, you know, UK's path and are losing our national identity.
And there's a lot of, lot of division.
And I know Australia similar to like, America is a very patriotic country.
So, um, seeing opinions online about this sort of thing, you know, if
someone's looking to leave Australia for another country, it can trigger
some very strong emotions from people.
There's a guy that I follow, he's Australian.
Um, I follow him on Instagram, I think his name is Matt Cameron.
And he talks about this like how he left, um, Australia with his
family to build a life in Indonesia because it had a lot less red tape.
The taxation was much better, better quality life.
You get Australian beef, which is very important for Australians.
Um, there.
And it was just, you know, a, a good healthcare system if
you can afford it privately.
Um.
And, you know, I love following his post because he will say deliberately
provocative and controversial things, and I'll go to the comment section and
some people are like, you are a hero.
Love what you're doing.
We are thinking of doing the same and other people are good.
We don't need you.
If you don't take, you know, Australia as you know, a country, you are lucky to
be here, then, then we don't need you.
So what is the main motivation of your clients?
For, for moving?
Katie: Yeah.
I'd say about 80% of my clients are not actually relocating mo.
The majority of my clients are preparing their plan B in case things get worse.
Some of them are already extremely unhappy with their home country and
they want to relocate, but there are things like parents are still alive and
need support, or kids are currently in school and you don't wanna switch it.
Like there are certain factors that keeping them where they're at.
But majority of clients are still.
Thinking that it's, it's, it makes sense for them to stay where they at,
either for opportunities, friends, lifestyle, whatever it is, but
hedging against things getting worse.
And that's where the name Plan B Passport originally came from.
Because I didn't necessarily want to be a relocation service.
I truly wanted for people to realize that you can't have
all your eggs in one basket.
You can't.
Like, I don't want the government to have monopoly over anybody because
that's what makes them capable of doing things like government overreach.
Because you have no optionality, you have no choices.
So only 3% of people leave outside of the country they were born in.
Um, right now, probably a little more, but that basically means your
government a 97% monopoly over you.
If you lack optionality, of course you will stick with your only
option and you'll withstand whatever government overreach is happening.
So my original, my original message was, get yourself a second
passport, a plan B passport, hedge against geopolitical, unres.
Civil unrest in your country, et cetera.
But then also COVID hit, right?
And that's when people were like, okay, let's see how our country's
gonna go through COVID, which Australia didn't do that well.
'cause that's great of a job.
And I've seen a huge wave of Australians being unhappy with
how the country handled it.
And that also made people realize that.
A lot more of their life is actually remote than they thought.
And that's when relocation became, became a bigger thing in the world.
And people started to consider places like Latin America as their first
choice, or Indonesia became huge, right?
Because.
You can afford a very solid lifestyle for much less.
Um, yes, sometimes it takes effort and it takes time to build out this
lifestyle, but it's very doable.
And then on top of it, you, you kind of.
You, you, you can optimize based on the jurisdiction you, you choose.
You can optimize your taxes, you can optimize the healthcare you receive,
you can optimize for the community you are a part of, and then the lifestyle.
So people started executing on their relocation as well, but the majority
is still just getting a Plan B passport in case the western world or whatever
first world countries are moving in a direction that you are uncomfortable with.
Anja: Yeah.
And I remember you saying in different podcasts that you believe that, you know,
in time long term that countries will start competing for their citizens and
they will try to actively make things more favorable for, you know, people
to relocate to, to their, their country because of their policies and their
laws and their taxation or whatnot.
Um, but do you see the transition there being, uh, potentially.
Things getting worse before they get better.
Like, I keep hearing news of different countries trying to implement like
citizenship based tax and it's like, just really like locking down the border.
Um, what, what do you think is gonna happen kind of over the next 10 years?
Katie: So, yeah, the, the immigration policies of the world
will kind of get weird for a while.
I, I could, I could see that happening.
So, just to give you an example that is relatable to you, Australia
has always been a very desirable place for immigration, right?
I think it's like in the, in the top four of professional immigration, meaning that
highly skilled professionals are seeking opportunities through legal immigration
in Australia and um, Australia.
Importing lots of talent, which talent is, uh, is a, it's a
big reason for immigration.
That's, that's why the cool countries wanna stay cool to attract the talent.
Well then we can see, an example was the uk, which was also a very
desirable immigration place to the extent that everybody was flooding
there and then they kind of.
Weakened down their immigration policies, and now the rich are living.
So at some point, if you open up the borders too much, the the local citizens
who actually do contribute the giant tax and who are bringing jobs and who are,
um, bringing lots of value, at least in a monetary sense, uh, they start leaving.
So.
Before we get to the point where it's truly a free market pay to play, pay,
and by pay to play, I don't only mean financially, but with your talent too,
like merit-based immigration, it, it will have to get weird at some jurisdictions
because we are still experimenting in what it's like because what only.
The last 40 years, immigration was actually that possible before that.
Like we still, we do a lot of citizenship by descent, so we see
like ship manifests and I'm realizing this, people spend 35 days on a ship
to immigrate to the United States.
So like, it wasn't as easy as getting on a plane and, and go on places and, uh,
getting a remote job or finding it online.
So.
The historically things are changing very quickly right now
compared to what it was before.
And uh, it definitely gets weird and gets interesting to me, um, just because
that's, that's what I live and breathe.
So I'm a huge fan of investment based migration because it's truly.
A free market competition, free market, capitalism of nation states where
people are willing to bring their capital or donate to the country in
order to become a citizen or resident.
That's just.
Monetary exchange is always the easiest, um, transaction, right.
I pay, I get, um, that's, that's the simplest exchange there is.
And then there is a merit-based immigration, which is, that's how
I immigrated to the United States.
I was a professional athlete.
The United States thought that I was good enough to compete for
America, and they gave me green card.
So then we have a skill-based immigration, merit-based immigration, and then we
have lots of other things such as.
Um, let's say political asylums and then that gets weird
because who are the judges?
What geopolitical opinion is your currently country currently in?
And the good example of that would be El Salvador.
El Salvador has 6 million people living in the country and 3 million
Salvador living in the United States because over the last 40 years.
There was a civil war in in the country, and they all fled the
country because it was dangerous.
And the United States said, okay, come on in.
Political asylum case.
Well now the country has become one of the safest countries
in the Western hemisphere.
And how are these cases gonna be judged Now the things have
changed so significantly, but those people lived here for 20 years.
This is their home country now, although not on paper.
So like the geopolitics changes the whole game of political asylum.
And then the countries misaligned on their, on their.
Directions or they align back on their directions.
And like a lot of, lots of Russians could get political asylum in the us.
Well, kind of not anymore.
That just depends on what's happening.
So that's always a dangerous play.
Um, and like not the ideal scenario, basically.
Never an ideal scenario.
And it also being.
Overly used because like, were you actually in danger there or
did you just want a better life?
And, uh, that's who are the judges again.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
Seems like you're having to play geopolitical chess.
Katie: Yeah.
Anja: Um, yeah.
But do, do you do citizenships and residencies?
Katie: Yeah, so we, our core business is definitely citizenship by investment,
and I truly believe that in the next 10 years, more and more countries
will keep offering citizenship through investment programs because again,
that's the simplest transaction, simplest value exchange money for, uh,
being able to call yourself a citizen.
And the United States, uh, just launched their Trump card, which.
You know, the United States is still one of the, the great leaders of, of
showing the world what's acceptable.
So once they launched the Trump card, it's kind of like a green light for
many small nations to say, that's fine, you can sell your citizenship.
'cause we do, and Trump card is a residency program like ci,
um, residency through investment with a pass to citizenship.
So that's also a product on the market.
Some nations, um, offer a golden visa, which is usually investment
based path to residency and then path to naturalization to become citizen.
And then on top of it, there are lots of cheaper immigration options, right?
So the reason citizenship by investment and residency by investments are so
valuable because again, you don't wanna deal with years of bureaucracy, with
years of being required to live in the country full time with months of not
being able to leave the country because you're going through immigration process.
You truly just want to simplify it to a transaction and get it done.
If you are just looking for relocation and you are moving with your family
to leave full-time, there are nearly free programs, especially when you're
coming from a first world country.
If you can show a solid salary coming from Australia, you'll be most likely welcome
on a Financial Solvency residency, uh, program, almost anywhere in Latin America.
A lot of European countries will give you digital nomad visa because
you have this external income coming from your home country.
So that's pretty easy.
The problem is, will it ever lead you to citizenship?
Not everywhere.
It's a lot of paperwork.
You are in a constant bureaucratic,
bureaucratic process, but it like, it's a good tool for many.
So yeah, we, we offer all of these.
We just don't offer all the countries because our audience is
not interested in all the countries.
And I see some other firms, they will be offering completely like
180 degrees from what we offer.
Um, for example, Australia has a startup.
We like startup Immigration Path New Zealand does to investor path.
And in six years of running the business, I remember maybe one client coming to
me and saying, I would be interested in moving to Australia, maybe two.
So for me it's a different type of audience.
Lots of Australians seeking a Plan B passport right now.
Anja: Yeah, that's interesting.
So yeah, if just to recap what you said, there's more Australians wanting
to leave Australia than come here
Katie: in my audience, definitely.
Yes.
Anja: Yeah, interesting.
Katie: And I understand that Australia is still very desirable
place for immigration, but within my audience, I see lots and lots of
Australians moving elsewhere, and I just spent six weeks in El Salvador.
Anja: Yeah,
Katie: and I feel like I've met the most, the amount of experts that I've
met in El Salvador were Australians.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah, I, yeah, I can completely understand why that would be the case.
While you were there, did you try the beef from beef bag better?
Katie: I bought.
So like I reached out to them two weeks ahead of my time landing in El Salvador.
'cause I was like, I need a grass fed beef for my family.
That's like the core of our diet for the family.
So I landed on Saturday morning.
Sunday morning, I came to the farmer's market and picked up like
40 pounds of beef from the guys.
So yeah, I really appreciated that.
Anja: Nice.
Yeah, that was founded by an Australian and I believe it's now sold.
I don't know to whom, but yeah.
Um, that was one of the questions that we had from the, um, community.
Um, but yeah, going back to your service.
Um, so in terms of your clientele, is the majority, I assume, high net worth
individuals or do you have some like lower to middle class income families
as well that are looking to move?
Katie: So if you looked at our industry overall, it used to be for
ultra high net worth individuals only.
Now we have citizenship programs at a hundred thousand dollars
check for a family of four, which is a price of a car, right?
Like a price of a higher like yeah.
Middle class, sometimes family even.
So a lot more people can, can afford that now.
Bitcoiners who are by no mean, like the wealthy of the
wealthy, but they stacked hard.
They stack sad, uh, and they huddled strong and they're capable of spending
one Bitcoin on a passport like that.
So I would say it's becoming democratized, but it is also like.
It is a tool not for everybody.
Like it doesn't make sense to spend your first a hundred thousand dollars
of savings on a passport because there are higher priorities in life sometimes,
and uh, you should consider that.
But once you cross, probably like $5 million net worth, I would say
definitely makes sense to, uh, to hedge and to find yourself a plan B passport.
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Anja: Yeah.
So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So how long, like, should a person plan in advance in terms of like the application
process and the whole thing to get set up?
Katie: Usually it takes about seven to 15 months to actually
get a passport in your hands.
And I would say it takes a lot of prior thinking and that's what where
I step in and try to help, try to brainstorm together with them of like,
what are the actual attack vectors?
Because I always say that the flag theory, right, the, this concept of limiting your
dependency on any one particular state.
It is a security model and just like in every security model you have to analyze
your attack vectors, your threats in order to optimize your security structure
to your customized needs and goals.
And that's the first thing we do.
Like why exactly are you doing it?
What are you trying to achieve?
What's your family composition?
And then.
We know the market, so we know what the market has to offer, and
they will tell you, okay, for your scenario, I would consider this
option, this option, and that option.
They're in different, you know, wallet size or timelines.
Are you in a rush, et cetera.
We analyze all that and we come up with the best jurisdiction for
you, and then we execute, which again, usually takes between six
to 15 months is a good estimate.
Anja: Yeah, if I was gonna put my typical Australian hat on, I would say
probably the attack vector or the biggest concern would be a big government.
We have one of the biggest governments in the world, and we
know that can lead to all sorts of weird and wonderful, uh, problems.
So.
That would definitely be a major concern.
Um, a major requirement for Australians would be good healthcare, good
beef and small government, low regulation, reasonable taxation.
So what are some of the options, um, that kind of fit that criteria?
Katie: Well, in today's world, I'd say El Salvador definitely matches that.
Uh, you guys get your surfing.
There too, which is a big one.
You already had the Australian guys running the beef farm right there.
And then in terms of like, in terms of medical system, let's say they have a
private and a public sector, which I actually really like this, this mix.
Uh, I grew up in Russia where we had this mix too, and I hate the fully socialistic.
Um.
Structure of medical system because then I know there's no efficiency and
there's no optionality and no choices.
But I also hate the medical system of the US that is run by insurance companies, um,
because then the, the check is just rising by like four x absolutely unnecessary.
If you go to Latin America, there's almost always a mixture of public
and private health, and private being a very high quality and.
High quality service also, which means that you can get an appointment
tomorrow and get whatever you need done, uh, based on how you want it done.
And then your pay out of pocket will be like 10% of my copay in the United States.
Even so insurance covers it.
So, um, it's, it's a very good mixture.
And then, um, there are some certain medical tourism countries like Costa Rica,
Panama, Mexico, they become the centers for medical tourism, which means a very
solid, good clinics coming with investment and building very solid services.
And the same we're seeing in El Salvador right now.
There are great dental clinics that popped up in the last five years.
And, uh, there is demand, so the supply is coming too.
Um, so that's a good option.
But almost anywhere in Latin America, the medical system would be good
because the private is so affordable.
Um, especially if you have Australian celery, let's say.
Now, what else did you mention?
Beef?
Well, Argentina,
Anja: yes.
Katie: Parkay and Beef Bag.
Better in El Salvador.
That will be the three options, but I also spend lots of time in
Mexico and I found a really good.
Local meat shop and I was extremely happy with my beef there.
And I was eating raw beef for four months in a row, like fully raw, never got sick.
So, uh, pretty high quality.
You if you search, you can find.
Um, what else did you mention?
Small governments.
Anja: Yeah.
I just wanted to ask you quickly on the Mexico, because that is never like
one of the countries that is discussed.
We usually discuss Paraguay Panama.
Those two countries seem to really pop up and El Salvador,
but I feel like that wave.
Of El Salvador was probably more popular going back four years ago.
Now it's more Panama and Para where they keep popping up.
But Mexico is an interesting one because, um, I think the first
association most people will have in Australia with Mexico is the crime rate.
There were two, two Australians recently, I think a year or two ago,
murdered there on, on a holiday.
So I think that kind of might, yeah, put a lot of people off.
Katie: Yeah.
And uh, in the United States, that's what people think about the moment.
You say Mexico too.
I spent almost a year there, was constantly traveling to Mexico
and it was in the COVID times.
Um, I felt safe, but I wasn't being stupid.
So you have to, you have to watch yourself there for sure.
Um, and you don't play stupid games.
Um, but also you're not at risk if you're not trying, trying to run local business.
You know, your for foreigner was an online income.
You're probably safe forever.
Um, but yeah, Mexico has been, I feel like while many countries in Latin America are
on a rise, I can't say that about Mexico.
So, um.
Maybe.
Maybe worth, worth noticing that.
Anja: Yeah.
But it's beautiful.
Yeah.
Um, yep.
But yeah, just going back to the small government, low regulation,
reasonable taxation, would you also say that a lot of the South American
countries kind of fit that bill?
Katie: Not too many, but yeah, so Panama, I was not a fan of Panama.
I always thought Panama was, uh, in bed, was the us.
Um, it like, I, it just didn't get me excited for a very long time.
But just lately, very lately, like in the last six months, I'm starting
to become more curious about that.
So I'll definitely be watching what's happening in Panama.
Um, but yet again, um.
I haven't been bullish this whole time.
Um, El Salvador, I'm very bullish just because I did my research very deeply.
I spent so much time there and I was feet on the ground.
I saw how the regulation changes towards the free market.
They basically said, look, for 40 years, we had nothing.
Nothing is built.
We need people to come and get that done.
And like as a, as a government, we can't move that quickly.
So let's open up the free market, let's let people do what they
want to do, and guess what?
It works.
People actually come and build beautiful things.
So I firsthand experienced that, um, that like if you wanna do something
else Salvador, and you find the regulation that is on your way.
There is a way to change it very quickly, like you can make it happen.
Like for example, home birth used to be prohibited in El Salvador and
that like changes very quickly and people can do it now, and the midwife
midwifery is, uh, you can be a licensed midwife there and all those things.
Um, it used to be much harder.
The whole medical freedom is becoming a big movement in El
Salvador and because there's demand.
They are changing rapidly.
Their policies, obviously same happening with Bitcoin banks right now.
They made Bitcoin legal tender and the financial institution said,
look, we know that you say it's money, but the regulatory environment
for banking to actually exchange dollars to Bitcoin is not friendly.
So they changed.
They made the Bitcoin bank law.
Same going for ai.
They're trying to be the most AI friendly jurisdiction.
So like, you know, Tesla, there are very few jurisdiction where you can use
full self-driving, um, in the world.
And I'm a huge fan of this full self-driving.
As a mom with two kids needing snacks on the back, I can just turn it at at
the pilot and I know that I'm safe.
Like me thinking that other Juris jurisdictions are
against, it blows my mind.
So El Salvador did an AI policy, which is very open to, uh, new technology.
So they're basic like that.
I know firsthand that I experienced that.
Yeah, if you wanna build something and a regulation is on your way, find
your way to reach the right people and you can help to change it quickly.
Um.
Argentina, I'm super curious for many reasons.
Um, and yet I feel like there's so much internal drama going on that
they can't change things rapidly.
So I'm watching very closely.
I'm very curious.
Uh, part y seem to be on a, on an interesting path too, so, um, I'm
definitely paying attention there.
Yeah.
Let's, let's see how that plays out.
Anja: Yeah.
Interesting.
And the other thing as well, I'm curious, like with El Salvador, like, I don't
expect you to know this, but I am not really fully across as to how many,
how long B B's been in in office for and for how long that would continue.
And if his approval rating is still as high as it was, you
know, when he first hit the scene.
Um, do, do you know much about that?
Like.
Katie: Yeah, so he was just reelected for his second term, uh, last year, I believe.
And, um, in 2007, 27, I believe there will be a vote to be able to
approve him running for a third term.
So currently it is not, it is not acceptable, but there will be, uh, a
vote to allow him to do that, uh, and they will see if that's possible or not.
Anja: Yeah, that, that's great to know.
Um, and now I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about motherhood.
So as you can imagine, Bitcoin is in Australia.
We're going through a baby boom.
People are having their second, their first, a lot of people are pregnant.
Um, I'd love to know more from you in terms of what your experience
as a mother in a Bitcoin has been and what's kind of the.
Katie: Yeah, I feel like I'm, well.
I'm definitely in the Bitcoin bubble.
I moved to the United States as a 21-year-old who didn't speak
the language, didn't have any connections or family here.
Got into Bitcoin very early on in my immigration journey, so all the
friends I acquired are Bitcoiners.
I have no friends that are outside of this bubble, and now
we're all having kids together.
Like yesterday, I went out with four of my girlfriends.
We're literally all pregnant.
I'm pregnant with my third, some of them with their seconds.
And yeah, our families are grow like we, we procreate very quickly.
Um, so it's really nice to have this community, like once you.
Once you go through motherhood, you truly need other moms around.
And Bitcoin community definitely provides that.
We have Bitcoin Moms Group chat on Telegram that is
pretty awesome and active.
Um, I have a local community of Bitcoin moms here in Austin, Texas.
And um, it's wonderful.
It's definitely the support system many moms need, but not always get.
Um, and uh, I definitely, I definitely have that support system and truly.
Truly appreciate that.
We also have very similar parenting style, mothering style, like many of us
are opting out of, uh, let's say hospital birth even, or like painkillers during,
during the childbirth and all of the.
Is fed by the low time preference.
Like if we talk about labor, I truly believe that unmedicated
birth is easier on the mother.
And in the moment you don't believe that you want every painkiller
there is, but then I believe the recovery is gonna be harder.
The actual labor is harder on the body.
Yes.
You don't feel it.
You'll pay that bill later.
Um, so we all choose unmedicated home birth because again, we believe that
low time preference, this is what's better for, for me and for the baby.
So the similar choices come from similar principles that are also fed by Bitcoin.
Um, and, um, that's been convenient and comfortable to be able to talk
about these things with other mothers.
Um, and then we all noticed that our diets are literally the same.
Like in the group chat we just discussed.
I say, well, my kids really love rice, and in order to like feel better about giving
them rice, I just boil it in a bone broth.
I said it in a group chat and like every mother was like, me too, me too.
We never discussed it, but because we are on a similar diet, we do
the same things for our kids.
So, um, it's almost funny how similarly we think.
Anja: Yeah, that, that, that's a great tip.
Um, but the group that you mentioned on Telegram, is that
like an open global group for moms, or is it more localized and
Katie: that one is definitely open.
I created a, because I like, there was a big baby boom on Twitter and I was
like, man, everybody's having babies.
And I was, at the time, I think pregnant was my second and I just invited all
the moms into the telegram group chat.
So if anybody wants an invite, you guys are welcome.
Just reach out to my dms on Twitter.
Anja: I'm sure you're gonna get a few requests there.
Um, before we wrap up, Katie, is there anything else you wanna say?
Katie: Well, um.
One thing that I feel is very important in the flag theory world that has
not been discussed is the tribe.
And again, just like I discussed how important it was, um, for me to find other
Bitcoin moms with similar principles, this is the thing that shouldn't be
overlooked when you're locating right, you are moving to a different jurisdiction.
There are reasons you're moving there.
And if you have a community of people who think the same.
It'll be very easy for you to find your new lifestyle and build your
new style lifestyle with the tips of those that think similarly.
So that's why, um, I believe El Salvador is so easy for Bitcoiners to
move to because we think similarly, similarly, like it's only been what,
four months since El Salvador got on, got on our Raiders, yet I get
there and I need my sourdough and my.
Grass fed beef and Bitcoiners already built it because again, they knew
that there will be demand for that.
And they built it ahead of time for all of us to come and appreciate it.
So, um, this like, this is an important thing to have the tribe,
and tribe is another flag, uh, in your citizenship residency, bank account,
offshore trust, and the tribe, um, to be, to have something to rely on.
So that's something for your Australian fellows to consider.
Um, find the people that you're vibing with, um, and ask where they're going
and maybe that's a good place for you.
Anja: Yeah.
And just the last question on, on El Salvador, 'cause you're
really selling it to me now.
Um, in terms of like a lot of Australians being there, are they mostly
based in the capitol or the beach?
Katie: Bitch.
Well, beach mostly, I'd say.
Yeah, course
Anja: we are.
Katie: Yeah, I mean, it seems like you guys the most comfortable
with this, uh, with this climate.
I, as a Russian born and raised in Siberia.
I, I feel somehow very comfortable in a humid, beachy environment that is hot.
I don't have a problem with that, but I know many, many Europeans do.
So that's why they choose, go into the mountains or go into the city 'cause it's
less humid and kind of a little cooler.
But yeah, fellow Australians don't mind the humidity and, uh, they
hang out at the Bitcoin beach.
And Bitcoin beach is the mind blowing place truly.
I'm on the beach buying a c coconut from a 60-year-old lady
for a dollar 50, and I have like, I'm on a, I'm in a bathing suit.
I have no cash on me, but I have my phone and I'm like, will you accept lightning?
She's like, sure.
And she pulls up her wallet like she's an elderly lady who.
Probably lives in a very low income who's just selling coconuts that she acquired
for free in the forest on the beach, and she pulls up a wallet and like, here's the
invoice and I pay lightning and that's it.
Mind blowing place.
Everybody accepts Bitcoin there and uh, yeah, it's hard to
believe and it's quite pure.
In terms of Bitcoin maximalism, I haven't seen a single sign
accepting any other currency.
It's all accepting Bitcoin so.
Bitcoin beach as a circular economy truly worth visiting.
Just, just to recognize like, man, we are way further than I thought we
are in this Bitcoin adoption journey.
Anja: I am getting goosebumps because, yeah, Bitcoin being a medium of exchange,
like hearing that that's already happening somewhere in the world, you
know, just because it's not accepted widely doesn't mean that it's not there.
So that's, yeah, very inspirational story to end with.
Thanks for your time, Katie.
Katie: Absolutely.
Well, anytime.
I really, I really love to brainstorm with people on what jurisdiction would
fill up their needs, suit, their needs.
Um, so we have free consultations on our website.
Just create an account, schedule a call, and we'll spend 30 minutes brainstorming
on what are your goals and needs and what jurisdiction fits your, fits your vibe.
Uh, so thank you.
Anja: Yep.
That's awesome.
I can already see a few people potentially reaching out to take that up.
Um, yeah.
Thanks again.
Katie: Yeah, anytime.
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this week on The Honest Money Show, a big
shout out again to shop bitcoin.com au for making this episode possible.
Until next week, stay smart with your money and stay decentralized.