1 00:00:11,943 --> 00:00:17,073 Anja: Joining me today is Katie Ananina, more famously known as Katie the Russian. 2 00:00:17,493 --> 00:00:22,083 Katie was the founder of Plan B and has recently acquired Citizen 3 00:00:22,083 --> 00:00:24,063 X. Katie, welcome to the show. 4 00:00:25,023 --> 00:00:25,503 Katie: Thank you. 5 00:00:25,503 --> 00:00:25,983 Thank you. 6 00:00:25,983 --> 00:00:26,973 Happy to be here. 7 00:00:27,363 --> 00:00:30,333 We finally found the time with our non-overlapping, 8 00:00:30,363 --> 00:00:32,103 non-overlapping time zones. 9 00:00:32,688 --> 00:00:33,918 Anja: Yes, exactly. 10 00:00:33,918 --> 00:00:37,878 I really appreciate it and yeah, especially knowing that you have a family 11 00:00:37,878 --> 00:00:39,528 and you're trying to squeeze me in. 12 00:00:39,528 --> 00:00:40,878 Thank you so much for that. 13 00:00:41,238 --> 00:00:46,158 Um, but I wanted to start with maybe let's kick off with, you know, uh, an overview 14 00:00:46,158 --> 00:00:47,928 of what it is that Citizen X does. 15 00:00:48,798 --> 00:00:49,098 Katie: Yeah. 16 00:00:49,578 --> 00:00:50,058 So. 17 00:00:50,613 --> 00:00:56,163 Very quickly, six years ago, uh, out of my own passion and out of me just 18 00:00:56,343 --> 00:01:00,213 constantly shit posting to Bitcoiners on Twitter, telling that everybody 19 00:01:00,213 --> 00:01:04,593 needs a second passport, I basically realized that over time I gained 20 00:01:04,953 --> 00:01:07,653 expertise and I gained following. 21 00:01:07,653 --> 00:01:10,863 And, uh, people wanted to come to me and ask for a product, 22 00:01:10,863 --> 00:01:12,153 which I didn't have at the time. 23 00:01:12,363 --> 00:01:14,793 So, out of this passion, um. 24 00:01:15,048 --> 00:01:16,848 Was born Plan B, passport. 25 00:01:17,208 --> 00:01:21,948 And then I was running this business for a while and just this year, early this year, 26 00:01:21,948 --> 00:01:26,838 I was acquired by Citizen X, which was my probably closest competitor at the time, 27 00:01:27,138 --> 00:01:32,988 at least in terms of the, our beliefs and our principles, um, in this, in industry. 28 00:01:33,498 --> 00:01:37,278 So now I'm a CMO of Citizen X, where we help people all over the 29 00:01:37,278 --> 00:01:39,978 world to obtain second citizenship. 30 00:01:40,428 --> 00:01:45,108 We basically see citizenship as an asset class, a new asset class. 31 00:01:45,648 --> 00:01:51,618 Um, and of course as a hedge against government overreach, uh, your emergency 32 00:01:51,618 --> 00:01:56,838 plan in terms of like in case of a civil unrest or any, any sort of crisis. 33 00:01:57,198 --> 00:01:58,638 So that's what we help people do. 34 00:01:58,638 --> 00:02:03,018 We help them to obtain second citizenship or residency for their benefit. 35 00:02:03,048 --> 00:02:03,558 Anja: Awesome. 36 00:02:03,558 --> 00:02:08,268 And I'd love to, before we get into, you know, the, the work that 37 00:02:08,268 --> 00:02:11,898 you do, I'd love to know more about your history and your early life. 38 00:02:11,898 --> 00:02:12,348 So. 39 00:02:13,158 --> 00:02:14,238 Born and bred in Russia. 40 00:02:15,228 --> 00:02:15,738 Katie: Yeah. 41 00:02:15,798 --> 00:02:16,158 Yeah. 42 00:02:16,158 --> 00:02:17,388 Born and raised there. 43 00:02:18,858 --> 00:02:24,228 All the experiences that I had in my, I would say even childhood, 44 00:02:24,228 --> 00:02:29,808 kinda led me to be AER since I was, so when I was nine I started sailing 45 00:02:29,898 --> 00:02:32,058 and this hobby got out of hands. 46 00:02:32,058 --> 00:02:36,288 By the age of 11 I got into Russian national team, so I started 47 00:02:36,288 --> 00:02:38,268 traveling the world with the team. 48 00:02:38,883 --> 00:02:40,593 All paid by Russian government. 49 00:02:40,593 --> 00:02:45,933 You know, like I'm on a national team, I'm being invited to Europe for European 50 00:02:45,933 --> 00:02:48,603 cap, and my Visa is getting denied. 51 00:02:48,783 --> 00:02:51,663 And because I'm Russian, I have a very weak passport in 52 00:02:51,663 --> 00:02:52,953 terms of visa free travel. 53 00:02:53,253 --> 00:02:55,533 I need to constantly obtain visas. 54 00:02:55,743 --> 00:02:58,383 I'm constantly getting denied in this Visas, which. 55 00:02:59,448 --> 00:03:03,648 Really weird because I'm like a teenager traveling with a coach and an entire 56 00:03:03,648 --> 00:03:08,478 national team, and somehow I'm the one getting rejected in Visas constantly. 57 00:03:08,748 --> 00:03:09,678 So I don't know. 58 00:03:09,738 --> 00:03:12,888 Um, I was chosen to do this work early on. 59 00:03:13,503 --> 00:03:18,633 And then the same experiences in the world of finance, um, of 60 00:03:18,633 --> 00:03:23,463 like seeing the currency in my national currency devalue over time. 61 00:03:23,463 --> 00:03:27,393 So significantly, like two hyperinflations in my lifetime by 62 00:03:27,393 --> 00:03:31,023 the age of 25, like something is off. 63 00:03:31,803 --> 00:03:35,793 And all this experiences basically led me to become a Bitcoin 64 00:03:35,853 --> 00:03:38,103 and to become a passport lady. 65 00:03:38,493 --> 00:03:41,163 Um, so yeah, I was, it was, it was meant to be. 66 00:03:41,958 --> 00:03:46,128 I just needed to learn enough about both of those concepts in order for 67 00:03:46,128 --> 00:03:51,318 it to click and it clicked pretty quickly because again, I was, I was 68 00:03:51,318 --> 00:03:54,468 prepared for all that I was, I was. 69 00:03:54,963 --> 00:03:57,813 Black pilled on the financial system early on. 70 00:03:57,903 --> 00:03:58,413 Anja: Yeah. 71 00:03:58,413 --> 00:04:02,253 And, and that's kind of also been my experience as well throughout life. 72 00:04:02,313 --> 00:04:06,333 Um, you know, people who come from countries with, you know, political 73 00:04:06,333 --> 00:04:10,983 unrest and have experienced things like hyperinflation, it's kind of instills, 74 00:04:11,073 --> 00:04:13,083 um, a sense of fragility in the. 75 00:04:13,333 --> 00:04:18,223 Him from a very young age and yeah, even though I was, you know, not responsible 76 00:04:18,223 --> 00:04:23,743 for the family money at the time, I do vividly remember, um, going to the 77 00:04:23,743 --> 00:04:28,903 shop with like million dollar notes to buy bread and then the next month. 78 00:04:29,358 --> 00:04:34,038 You know, it wasn't enough and we had to use, I think, the German 79 00:04:34,038 --> 00:04:35,688 currency as a store of value. 80 00:04:35,688 --> 00:04:37,308 So people would sort of exchange that. 81 00:04:37,308 --> 00:04:40,128 That was the, the closest currency to us. 82 00:04:40,158 --> 00:04:44,088 Um, you know, regionally was, did Russia use like a different currency 83 00:04:44,088 --> 00:04:45,678 as well as a store of value? 84 00:04:45,858 --> 00:04:45,918 I 85 00:04:46,458 --> 00:04:50,388 Katie: mean, we were under, under the iron curtain, so it's not that 86 00:04:50,388 --> 00:04:54,678 we could have easy access to, let's say dollars or anything like that. 87 00:04:55,128 --> 00:05:00,138 Um, yeah, so in, in a sense, like in the time of hyperinflation, people always 88 00:05:00,138 --> 00:05:02,418 tried to buy metal and real estate. 89 00:05:03,118 --> 00:05:07,168 We were in a communism, so it's not that you could just go on a free 90 00:05:07,168 --> 00:05:09,358 market and randomly buy real estate. 91 00:05:09,358 --> 00:05:10,468 That's not how it worked. 92 00:05:10,468 --> 00:05:15,958 So people would just hold their fiat under the mattress and uh, this 93 00:05:15,958 --> 00:05:18,058 fiat would just literally disappear. 94 00:05:18,958 --> 00:05:19,918 You know what's funny? 95 00:05:19,978 --> 00:05:23,218 People like us, like even if you didn't experience it 96 00:05:23,218 --> 00:05:26,068 firsthand, you have this DNA. 97 00:05:27,618 --> 00:05:30,648 Like it's in your DNA because your parents, your grandparents 98 00:05:30,648 --> 00:05:33,798 experienced it and then they passed down those experiences. 99 00:05:34,308 --> 00:05:38,268 And if you look at the Bitcoin community, especially girls in the Bitcoin 100 00:05:38,268 --> 00:05:43,548 community, it's like you, me, Carla from Romania, Natalie from Poland, like. 101 00:05:44,103 --> 00:05:47,673 So many girls who have Eastern European roots. 102 00:05:48,033 --> 00:05:53,013 Um, and part of it is probably because again, we have those stories that will 103 00:05:53,013 --> 00:05:59,073 stick with us from few more generations until, until we forget like generational 104 00:05:59,073 --> 00:06:00,993 trauma that made us Bitcoiners. 105 00:06:01,383 --> 00:06:03,513 So yeah, that I can definitely see that. 106 00:06:04,593 --> 00:06:05,733 Anja: Yeah, absolutely. 107 00:06:05,733 --> 00:06:07,443 That is so relatable. 108 00:06:07,773 --> 00:06:11,493 Um, but yeah, more about on, on your business side of things. 109 00:06:11,493 --> 00:06:17,823 So just to give you a bit of an overview, Australia is very divided at the moment. 110 00:06:17,943 --> 00:06:22,953 Um, we've got a lot of the population thinking that we are headed towards 111 00:06:23,373 --> 00:06:27,333 being like right wing extremists and some people are referencing 112 00:06:27,333 --> 00:06:29,763 the us, other people are thinking. 113 00:06:30,213 --> 00:06:35,163 Uh, that, you know, we're turning towards left stream le le left-wing extremism 114 00:06:35,163 --> 00:06:38,883 and are following, you know, UK's path and are losing our national identity. 115 00:06:38,883 --> 00:06:40,923 And there's a lot of, lot of division. 116 00:06:40,923 --> 00:06:45,843 And I know Australia similar to like, America is a very patriotic country. 117 00:06:45,843 --> 00:06:51,123 So, um, seeing opinions online about this sort of thing, you know, if 118 00:06:51,123 --> 00:06:55,563 someone's looking to leave Australia for another country, it can trigger 119 00:06:55,563 --> 00:06:57,663 some very strong emotions from people. 120 00:06:58,608 --> 00:07:00,948 There's a guy that I follow, he's Australian. 121 00:07:00,978 --> 00:07:04,218 Um, I follow him on Instagram, I think his name is Matt Cameron. 122 00:07:04,608 --> 00:07:08,448 And he talks about this like how he left, um, Australia with his 123 00:07:08,448 --> 00:07:13,968 family to build a life in Indonesia because it had a lot less red tape. 124 00:07:14,028 --> 00:07:17,298 The taxation was much better, better quality life. 125 00:07:17,298 --> 00:07:20,358 You get Australian beef, which is very important for Australians. 126 00:07:20,808 --> 00:07:22,128 Um, there. 127 00:07:22,128 --> 00:07:24,978 And it was just, you know, a, a good healthcare system if 128 00:07:24,978 --> 00:07:26,448 you can afford it privately. 129 00:07:26,508 --> 00:07:27,078 Um. 130 00:07:27,993 --> 00:07:32,253 And, you know, I love following his post because he will say deliberately 131 00:07:32,253 --> 00:07:35,883 provocative and controversial things, and I'll go to the comment section and 132 00:07:36,123 --> 00:07:37,833 some people are like, you are a hero. 133 00:07:37,833 --> 00:07:38,553 Love what you're doing. 134 00:07:38,553 --> 00:07:41,643 We are thinking of doing the same and other people are good. 135 00:07:41,643 --> 00:07:42,363 We don't need you. 136 00:07:42,363 --> 00:07:47,373 If you don't take, you know, Australia as you know, a country, you are lucky to 137 00:07:47,373 --> 00:07:49,593 be here, then, then we don't need you. 138 00:07:49,593 --> 00:07:53,493 So what is the main motivation of your clients? 139 00:07:53,493 --> 00:07:54,483 For, for moving? 140 00:07:55,563 --> 00:07:55,923 Katie: Yeah. 141 00:07:56,448 --> 00:08:02,718 I'd say about 80% of my clients are not actually relocating mo. 142 00:08:02,748 --> 00:08:08,448 The majority of my clients are preparing their plan B in case things get worse. 143 00:08:08,778 --> 00:08:12,438 Some of them are already extremely unhappy with their home country and 144 00:08:12,438 --> 00:08:17,448 they want to relocate, but there are things like parents are still alive and 145 00:08:17,448 --> 00:08:21,288 need support, or kids are currently in school and you don't wanna switch it. 146 00:08:21,558 --> 00:08:24,528 Like there are certain factors that keeping them where they're at. 147 00:08:25,083 --> 00:08:28,023 But majority of clients are still. 148 00:08:28,833 --> 00:08:33,213 Thinking that it's, it's, it makes sense for them to stay where they at, 149 00:08:33,243 --> 00:08:37,803 either for opportunities, friends, lifestyle, whatever it is, but 150 00:08:37,803 --> 00:08:40,233 hedging against things getting worse. 151 00:08:40,503 --> 00:08:43,803 And that's where the name Plan B Passport originally came from. 152 00:08:43,803 --> 00:08:47,613 Because I didn't necessarily want to be a relocation service. 153 00:08:47,613 --> 00:08:51,723 I truly wanted for people to realize that you can't have 154 00:08:51,723 --> 00:08:53,223 all your eggs in one basket. 155 00:08:53,733 --> 00:08:54,933 You can't. 156 00:08:55,623 --> 00:09:00,753 Like, I don't want the government to have monopoly over anybody because 157 00:09:00,753 --> 00:09:05,883 that's what makes them capable of doing things like government overreach. 158 00:09:06,123 --> 00:09:08,793 Because you have no optionality, you have no choices. 159 00:09:09,063 --> 00:09:13,503 So only 3% of people leave outside of the country they were born in. 160 00:09:13,953 --> 00:09:17,523 Um, right now, probably a little more, but that basically means your 161 00:09:17,523 --> 00:09:20,073 government a 97% monopoly over you. 162 00:09:21,753 --> 00:09:26,673 If you lack optionality, of course you will stick with your only 163 00:09:26,673 --> 00:09:31,143 option and you'll withstand whatever government overreach is happening. 164 00:09:31,893 --> 00:09:36,303 So my original, my original message was, get yourself a second 165 00:09:36,303 --> 00:09:40,923 passport, a plan B passport, hedge against geopolitical, unres. 166 00:09:42,603 --> 00:09:44,823 Civil unrest in your country, et cetera. 167 00:09:45,273 --> 00:09:47,583 But then also COVID hit, right? 168 00:09:47,973 --> 00:09:52,023 And that's when people were like, okay, let's see how our country's 169 00:09:52,023 --> 00:09:55,863 gonna go through COVID, which Australia didn't do that well. 170 00:09:55,893 --> 00:09:57,153 'cause that's great of a job. 171 00:09:57,453 --> 00:10:00,908 And I've seen a huge wave of Australians being unhappy with 172 00:10:00,993 --> 00:10:02,253 how the country handled it. 173 00:10:02,793 --> 00:10:05,073 And that also made people realize that. 174 00:10:06,093 --> 00:10:10,173 A lot more of their life is actually remote than they thought. 175 00:10:11,043 --> 00:10:16,143 And that's when relocation became, became a bigger thing in the world. 176 00:10:17,103 --> 00:10:22,563 And people started to consider places like Latin America as their first 177 00:10:22,803 --> 00:10:26,043 choice, or Indonesia became huge, right? 178 00:10:26,463 --> 00:10:27,213 Because. 179 00:10:27,858 --> 00:10:32,298 You can afford a very solid lifestyle for much less. 180 00:10:32,928 --> 00:10:37,998 Um, yes, sometimes it takes effort and it takes time to build out this 181 00:10:37,998 --> 00:10:40,218 lifestyle, but it's very doable. 182 00:10:40,428 --> 00:10:43,758 And then on top of it, you, you kind of. 183 00:10:45,783 --> 00:10:50,238 You, you, you can optimize based on the jurisdiction you, you choose. 184 00:10:50,598 --> 00:10:54,138 You can optimize your taxes, you can optimize the healthcare you receive, 185 00:10:54,408 --> 00:10:58,878 you can optimize for the community you are a part of, and then the lifestyle. 186 00:10:59,328 --> 00:11:03,363 So people started executing on their relocation as well, but the majority 187 00:11:03,363 --> 00:11:08,718 is still just getting a Plan B passport in case the western world or whatever 188 00:11:08,718 --> 00:11:13,908 first world countries are moving in a direction that you are uncomfortable with. 189 00:11:14,808 --> 00:11:15,198 Anja: Yeah. 190 00:11:15,528 --> 00:11:19,908 And I remember you saying in different podcasts that you believe that, you know, 191 00:11:19,908 --> 00:11:24,828 in time long term that countries will start competing for their citizens and 192 00:11:24,828 --> 00:11:29,568 they will try to actively make things more favorable for, you know, people 193 00:11:29,568 --> 00:11:33,978 to relocate to, to their, their country because of their policies and their 194 00:11:33,978 --> 00:11:36,048 laws and their taxation or whatnot. 195 00:11:36,498 --> 00:11:41,718 Um, but do you see the transition there being, uh, potentially. 196 00:11:42,408 --> 00:11:44,568 Things getting worse before they get better. 197 00:11:44,568 --> 00:11:48,858 Like, I keep hearing news of different countries trying to implement like 198 00:11:48,858 --> 00:11:54,978 citizenship based tax and it's like, just really like locking down the border. 199 00:11:55,008 --> 00:11:58,818 Um, what, what do you think is gonna happen kind of over the next 10 years? 200 00:11:59,508 --> 00:12:02,958 Katie: So, yeah, the, the immigration policies of the world 201 00:12:02,958 --> 00:12:05,028 will kind of get weird for a while. 202 00:12:05,083 --> 00:12:06,888 I, I could, I could see that happening. 203 00:12:07,008 --> 00:12:10,158 So, just to give you an example that is relatable to you, Australia 204 00:12:10,158 --> 00:12:13,068 has always been a very desirable place for immigration, right? 205 00:12:13,668 --> 00:12:19,128 I think it's like in the, in the top four of professional immigration, meaning that 206 00:12:19,158 --> 00:12:23,898 highly skilled professionals are seeking opportunities through legal immigration 207 00:12:23,898 --> 00:12:26,058 in Australia and um, Australia. 208 00:12:26,823 --> 00:12:31,773 Importing lots of talent, which talent is, uh, is a, it's a 209 00:12:31,773 --> 00:12:33,183 big reason for immigration. 210 00:12:33,183 --> 00:12:37,413 That's, that's why the cool countries wanna stay cool to attract the talent. 211 00:12:38,043 --> 00:12:42,273 Well then we can see, an example was the uk, which was also a very 212 00:12:42,273 --> 00:12:47,823 desirable immigration place to the extent that everybody was flooding 213 00:12:47,823 --> 00:12:50,163 there and then they kind of. 214 00:12:51,483 --> 00:12:55,953 Weakened down their immigration policies, and now the rich are living. 215 00:12:56,373 --> 00:13:04,143 So at some point, if you open up the borders too much, the the local citizens 216 00:13:04,173 --> 00:13:11,133 who actually do contribute the giant tax and who are bringing jobs and who are, 217 00:13:11,493 --> 00:13:17,223 um, bringing lots of value, at least in a monetary sense, uh, they start leaving. 218 00:13:17,613 --> 00:13:18,273 So. 219 00:13:19,473 --> 00:13:24,963 Before we get to the point where it's truly a free market pay to play, pay, 220 00:13:24,963 --> 00:13:28,743 and by pay to play, I don't only mean financially, but with your talent too, 221 00:13:28,743 --> 00:13:33,603 like merit-based immigration, it, it will have to get weird at some jurisdictions 222 00:13:33,603 --> 00:13:38,038 because we are still experimenting in what it's like because what only. 223 00:13:38,973 --> 00:13:43,533 The last 40 years, immigration was actually that possible before that. 224 00:13:43,533 --> 00:13:46,983 Like we still, we do a lot of citizenship by descent, so we see 225 00:13:46,983 --> 00:13:51,873 like ship manifests and I'm realizing this, people spend 35 days on a ship 226 00:13:51,873 --> 00:13:53,523 to immigrate to the United States. 227 00:13:53,883 --> 00:13:59,313 So like, it wasn't as easy as getting on a plane and, and go on places and, uh, 228 00:13:59,313 --> 00:14:02,073 getting a remote job or finding it online. 229 00:14:02,643 --> 00:14:03,003 So. 230 00:14:03,648 --> 00:14:07,638 The historically things are changing very quickly right now 231 00:14:07,638 --> 00:14:09,288 compared to what it was before. 232 00:14:09,618 --> 00:14:15,108 And uh, it definitely gets weird and gets interesting to me, um, just because 233 00:14:15,108 --> 00:14:16,608 that's, that's what I live and breathe. 234 00:14:17,208 --> 00:14:22,728 So I'm a huge fan of investment based migration because it's truly. 235 00:14:23,163 --> 00:14:28,353 A free market competition, free market, capitalism of nation states where 236 00:14:28,353 --> 00:14:32,583 people are willing to bring their capital or donate to the country in 237 00:14:32,583 --> 00:14:34,443 order to become a citizen or resident. 238 00:14:34,713 --> 00:14:35,098 That's just. 239 00:14:36,168 --> 00:14:40,668 Monetary exchange is always the easiest, um, transaction, right. 240 00:14:40,998 --> 00:14:45,618 I pay, I get, um, that's, that's the simplest exchange there is. 241 00:14:45,948 --> 00:14:49,668 And then there is a merit-based immigration, which is, that's how 242 00:14:49,668 --> 00:14:51,438 I immigrated to the United States. 243 00:14:51,438 --> 00:14:52,818 I was a professional athlete. 244 00:14:53,118 --> 00:14:55,908 The United States thought that I was good enough to compete for 245 00:14:55,908 --> 00:14:57,678 America, and they gave me green card. 246 00:14:57,678 --> 00:15:02,358 So then we have a skill-based immigration, merit-based immigration, and then we 247 00:15:02,358 --> 00:15:04,608 have lots of other things such as. 248 00:15:05,238 --> 00:15:10,338 Um, let's say political asylums and then that gets weird 249 00:15:10,338 --> 00:15:11,808 because who are the judges? 250 00:15:12,378 --> 00:15:16,008 What geopolitical opinion is your currently country currently in? 251 00:15:16,488 --> 00:15:19,248 And the good example of that would be El Salvador. 252 00:15:19,938 --> 00:15:23,898 El Salvador has 6 million people living in the country and 3 million 253 00:15:23,898 --> 00:15:29,358 Salvador living in the United States because over the last 40 years. 254 00:15:29,928 --> 00:15:34,698 There was a civil war in in the country, and they all fled the 255 00:15:34,698 --> 00:15:36,258 country because it was dangerous. 256 00:15:36,258 --> 00:15:38,358 And the United States said, okay, come on in. 257 00:15:38,928 --> 00:15:40,248 Political asylum case. 258 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,370 Well now the country has become one of the safest countries 259 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,140 in the Western hemisphere. 260 00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:50,790 And how are these cases gonna be judged Now the things have 261 00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:54,510 changed so significantly, but those people lived here for 20 years. 262 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:57,720 This is their home country now, although not on paper. 263 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,790 So like the geopolitics changes the whole game of political asylum. 264 00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:07,920 And then the countries misaligned on their, on their. 265 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:12,240 Directions or they align back on their directions. 266 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,950 And like a lot of, lots of Russians could get political asylum in the us. 267 00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:18,750 Well, kind of not anymore. 268 00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:20,880 That just depends on what's happening. 269 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,150 So that's always a dangerous play. 270 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,230 Um, and like not the ideal scenario, basically. 271 00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:29,460 Never an ideal scenario. 272 00:16:29,790 --> 00:16:31,260 And it also being. 273 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,120 Overly used because like, were you actually in danger there or 274 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,860 did you just want a better life? 275 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,460 And, uh, that's who are the judges again. 276 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,040 Anja: Yeah, absolutely. 277 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,220 Seems like you're having to play geopolitical chess. 278 00:16:48,090 --> 00:16:48,210 Katie: Yeah. 279 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,860 Anja: Um, yeah. 280 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:52,920 But do, do you do citizenships and residencies? 281 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:59,790 Katie: Yeah, so we, our core business is definitely citizenship by investment, 282 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,220 and I truly believe that in the next 10 years, more and more countries 283 00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:08,850 will keep offering citizenship through investment programs because again, 284 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,915 that's the simplest transaction, simplest value exchange money for, uh, 285 00:17:15,030 --> 00:17:16,675 being able to call yourself a citizen. 286 00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:21,630 And the United States, uh, just launched their Trump card, which. 287 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:28,350 You know, the United States is still one of the, the great leaders of, of 288 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,600 showing the world what's acceptable. 289 00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:35,205 So once they launched the Trump card, it's kind of like a green light for 290 00:17:35,205 --> 00:17:39,255 many small nations to say, that's fine, you can sell your citizenship. 291 00:17:39,465 --> 00:17:43,335 'cause we do, and Trump card is a residency program like ci, 292 00:17:43,365 --> 00:17:46,665 um, residency through investment with a pass to citizenship. 293 00:17:46,665 --> 00:17:50,265 So that's also a product on the market. 294 00:17:50,265 --> 00:17:55,005 Some nations, um, offer a golden visa, which is usually investment 295 00:17:55,005 --> 00:17:59,865 based path to residency and then path to naturalization to become citizen. 296 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,760 And then on top of it, there are lots of cheaper immigration options, right? 297 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,710 So the reason citizenship by investment and residency by investments are so 298 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:15,900 valuable because again, you don't wanna deal with years of bureaucracy, with 299 00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:20,880 years of being required to live in the country full time with months of not 300 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,760 being able to leave the country because you're going through immigration process. 301 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,180 You truly just want to simplify it to a transaction and get it done. 302 00:18:28,335 --> 00:18:32,835 If you are just looking for relocation and you are moving with your family 303 00:18:32,985 --> 00:18:38,235 to leave full-time, there are nearly free programs, especially when you're 304 00:18:38,235 --> 00:18:39,825 coming from a first world country. 305 00:18:40,395 --> 00:18:46,695 If you can show a solid salary coming from Australia, you'll be most likely welcome 306 00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:52,185 on a Financial Solvency residency, uh, program, almost anywhere in Latin America. 307 00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:56,760 A lot of European countries will give you digital nomad visa because 308 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,390 you have this external income coming from your home country. 309 00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:02,520 So that's pretty easy. 310 00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:06,360 The problem is, will it ever lead you to citizenship? 311 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Not everywhere. 312 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:09,510 It's a lot of paperwork. 313 00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:11,075 You are in a constant bureaucratic, 314 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,360 bureaucratic process, but it like, it's a good tool for many. 315 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,360 So yeah, we, we offer all of these. 316 00:19:21,975 --> 00:19:25,845 We just don't offer all the countries because our audience is 317 00:19:25,845 --> 00:19:27,375 not interested in all the countries. 318 00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:31,785 And I see some other firms, they will be offering completely like 319 00:19:31,785 --> 00:19:34,095 180 degrees from what we offer. 320 00:19:34,785 --> 00:19:37,545 Um, for example, Australia has a startup. 321 00:19:37,545 --> 00:19:42,525 We like startup Immigration Path New Zealand does to investor path. 322 00:19:43,095 --> 00:19:49,065 And in six years of running the business, I remember maybe one client coming to 323 00:19:49,065 --> 00:19:52,605 me and saying, I would be interested in moving to Australia, maybe two. 324 00:19:53,175 --> 00:19:56,115 So for me it's a different type of audience. 325 00:19:56,145 --> 00:19:59,475 Lots of Australians seeking a Plan B passport right now. 326 00:20:00,225 --> 00:20:01,515 Anja: Yeah, that's interesting. 327 00:20:01,515 --> 00:20:06,135 So yeah, if just to recap what you said, there's more Australians wanting 328 00:20:06,135 --> 00:20:08,115 to leave Australia than come here 329 00:20:09,165 --> 00:20:10,785 Katie: in my audience, definitely. 330 00:20:10,785 --> 00:20:11,325 Yes. 331 00:20:11,355 --> 00:20:12,315 Anja: Yeah, interesting. 332 00:20:12,315 --> 00:20:15,465 Katie: And I understand that Australia is still very desirable 333 00:20:15,945 --> 00:20:22,035 place for immigration, but within my audience, I see lots and lots of 334 00:20:22,035 --> 00:20:27,345 Australians moving elsewhere, and I just spent six weeks in El Salvador. 335 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:28,140 Anja: Yeah, 336 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,760 Katie: and I feel like I've met the most, the amount of experts that I've 337 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,770 met in El Salvador were Australians. 338 00:20:36,475 --> 00:20:36,765 Anja: Yeah. 339 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,700 Yeah, I, yeah, I can completely understand why that would be the case. 340 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,330 While you were there, did you try the beef from beef bag better? 341 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:46,890 Katie: I bought. 342 00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:52,890 So like I reached out to them two weeks ahead of my time landing in El Salvador. 343 00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:55,830 'cause I was like, I need a grass fed beef for my family. 344 00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:58,440 That's like the core of our diet for the family. 345 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,960 So I landed on Saturday morning. 346 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,840 Sunday morning, I came to the farmer's market and picked up like 347 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,390 40 pounds of beef from the guys. 348 00:21:06,690 --> 00:21:08,520 So yeah, I really appreciated that. 349 00:21:09,060 --> 00:21:09,510 Anja: Nice. 350 00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:12,780 Yeah, that was founded by an Australian and I believe it's now sold. 351 00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:14,430 I don't know to whom, but yeah. 352 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,510 Um, that was one of the questions that we had from the, um, community. 353 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,930 Um, but yeah, going back to your service. 354 00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:27,060 Um, so in terms of your clientele, is the majority, I assume, high net worth 355 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:31,500 individuals or do you have some like lower to middle class income families 356 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:32,585 as well that are looking to move? 357 00:21:34,155 --> 00:21:37,695 Katie: So if you looked at our industry overall, it used to be for 358 00:21:37,755 --> 00:21:39,975 ultra high net worth individuals only. 359 00:21:40,575 --> 00:21:44,565 Now we have citizenship programs at a hundred thousand dollars 360 00:21:44,565 --> 00:21:49,785 check for a family of four, which is a price of a car, right? 361 00:21:49,785 --> 00:21:53,265 Like a price of a higher like yeah. 362 00:21:53,715 --> 00:21:56,175 Middle class, sometimes family even. 363 00:21:56,565 --> 00:22:01,095 So a lot more people can, can afford that now. 364 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,450 Bitcoiners who are by no mean, like the wealthy of the 365 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:09,840 wealthy, but they stacked hard. 366 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,880 They stack sad, uh, and they huddled strong and they're capable of spending 367 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,950 one Bitcoin on a passport like that. 368 00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:22,410 So I would say it's becoming democratized, but it is also like. 369 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,230 It is a tool not for everybody. 370 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:28,800 Like it doesn't make sense to spend your first a hundred thousand dollars 371 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:35,280 of savings on a passport because there are higher priorities in life sometimes, 372 00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:38,160 and uh, you should consider that. 373 00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:44,220 But once you cross, probably like $5 million net worth, I would say 374 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:50,790 definitely makes sense to, uh, to hedge and to find yourself a plan B passport. 375 00:22:51,174 --> 00:22:55,794 Speaker 3: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's 376 00:22:55,794 --> 00:22:57,384 one-stop shop for Bitcoiners. 377 00:22:57,534 --> 00:23:01,974 Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions? 378 00:23:02,274 --> 00:23:07,299 To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au. 379 00:23:11,565 --> 00:23:12,075 Anja: Yeah. 380 00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:13,935 So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 381 00:23:13,935 --> 00:23:19,485 So how long, like, should a person plan in advance in terms of like the application 382 00:23:19,485 --> 00:23:21,855 process and the whole thing to get set up? 383 00:23:23,055 --> 00:23:26,715 Katie: Usually it takes about seven to 15 months to actually 384 00:23:26,715 --> 00:23:28,305 get a passport in your hands. 385 00:23:28,875 --> 00:23:33,735 And I would say it takes a lot of prior thinking and that's what where 386 00:23:33,735 --> 00:23:38,475 I step in and try to help, try to brainstorm together with them of like, 387 00:23:38,535 --> 00:23:40,485 what are the actual attack vectors? 388 00:23:40,665 --> 00:23:46,995 Because I always say that the flag theory, right, the, this concept of limiting your 389 00:23:46,995 --> 00:23:49,395 dependency on any one particular state. 390 00:23:49,965 --> 00:23:54,345 It is a security model and just like in every security model you have to analyze 391 00:23:54,345 --> 00:23:59,655 your attack vectors, your threats in order to optimize your security structure 392 00:23:59,895 --> 00:24:03,225 to your customized needs and goals. 393 00:24:03,615 --> 00:24:05,145 And that's the first thing we do. 394 00:24:05,145 --> 00:24:06,975 Like why exactly are you doing it? 395 00:24:07,125 --> 00:24:08,625 What are you trying to achieve? 396 00:24:08,985 --> 00:24:10,815 What's your family composition? 397 00:24:11,235 --> 00:24:11,955 And then. 398 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:15,710 We know the market, so we know what the market has to offer, and 399 00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:18,920 they will tell you, okay, for your scenario, I would consider this 400 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,990 option, this option, and that option. 401 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:25,760 They're in different, you know, wallet size or timelines. 402 00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:27,470 Are you in a rush, et cetera. 403 00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:30,440 We analyze all that and we come up with the best jurisdiction for 404 00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:35,510 you, and then we execute, which again, usually takes between six 405 00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:37,280 to 15 months is a good estimate. 406 00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:42,870 Anja: Yeah, if I was gonna put my typical Australian hat on, I would say 407 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:47,760 probably the attack vector or the biggest concern would be a big government. 408 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,250 We have one of the biggest governments in the world, and we 409 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:54,840 know that can lead to all sorts of weird and wonderful, uh, problems. 410 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:55,320 So. 411 00:24:55,995 --> 00:24:58,035 That would definitely be a major concern. 412 00:24:58,095 --> 00:25:02,805 Um, a major requirement for Australians would be good healthcare, good 413 00:25:02,805 --> 00:25:09,375 beef and small government, low regulation, reasonable taxation. 414 00:25:09,735 --> 00:25:13,785 So what are some of the options, um, that kind of fit that criteria? 415 00:25:15,045 --> 00:25:18,585 Katie: Well, in today's world, I'd say El Salvador definitely matches that. 416 00:25:19,155 --> 00:25:20,895 Uh, you guys get your surfing. 417 00:25:21,495 --> 00:25:23,775 There too, which is a big one. 418 00:25:24,075 --> 00:25:28,965 You already had the Australian guys running the beef farm right there. 419 00:25:30,105 --> 00:25:37,455 And then in terms of like, in terms of medical system, let's say they have a 420 00:25:37,455 --> 00:25:42,345 private and a public sector, which I actually really like this, this mix. 421 00:25:42,435 --> 00:25:48,975 Uh, I grew up in Russia where we had this mix too, and I hate the fully socialistic. 422 00:25:49,155 --> 00:25:49,815 Um. 423 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,210 Structure of medical system because then I know there's no efficiency and 424 00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:56,190 there's no optionality and no choices. 425 00:25:56,580 --> 00:26:02,400 But I also hate the medical system of the US that is run by insurance companies, um, 426 00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:09,090 because then the, the check is just rising by like four x absolutely unnecessary. 427 00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:15,090 If you go to Latin America, there's almost always a mixture of public 428 00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:19,530 and private health, and private being a very high quality and. 429 00:26:20,130 --> 00:26:24,150 High quality service also, which means that you can get an appointment 430 00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:29,160 tomorrow and get whatever you need done, uh, based on how you want it done. 431 00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:36,870 And then your pay out of pocket will be like 10% of my copay in the United States. 432 00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:38,460 Even so insurance covers it. 433 00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:42,840 So, um, it's, it's a very good mixture. 434 00:26:43,695 --> 00:26:49,335 And then, um, there are some certain medical tourism countries like Costa Rica, 435 00:26:49,335 --> 00:26:55,755 Panama, Mexico, they become the centers for medical tourism, which means a very 436 00:26:55,755 --> 00:27:01,335 solid, good clinics coming with investment and building very solid services. 437 00:27:01,665 --> 00:27:03,945 And the same we're seeing in El Salvador right now. 438 00:27:03,945 --> 00:27:07,725 There are great dental clinics that popped up in the last five years. 439 00:27:08,865 --> 00:27:12,375 And, uh, there is demand, so the supply is coming too. 440 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,760 Um, so that's a good option. 441 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:18,750 But almost anywhere in Latin America, the medical system would be good 442 00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:21,540 because the private is so affordable. 443 00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:25,800 Um, especially if you have Australian celery, let's say. 444 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,170 Now, what else did you mention? 445 00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:28,620 Beef? 446 00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:30,540 Well, Argentina, 447 00:27:31,365 --> 00:27:31,585 Anja: yes. 448 00:27:31,925 --> 00:27:34,410 Katie: Parkay and Beef Bag. 449 00:27:34,410 --> 00:27:35,370 Better in El Salvador. 450 00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:38,520 That will be the three options, but I also spend lots of time in 451 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,410 Mexico and I found a really good. 452 00:27:41,295 --> 00:27:45,585 Local meat shop and I was extremely happy with my beef there. 453 00:27:45,585 --> 00:27:50,985 And I was eating raw beef for four months in a row, like fully raw, never got sick. 454 00:27:51,285 --> 00:27:53,925 So, uh, pretty high quality. 455 00:27:53,985 --> 00:27:55,695 You if you search, you can find. 456 00:27:56,535 --> 00:27:58,965 Um, what else did you mention? 457 00:28:00,465 --> 00:28:01,335 Small governments. 458 00:28:01,635 --> 00:28:02,445 Anja: Yeah. 459 00:28:02,715 --> 00:28:08,175 I just wanted to ask you quickly on the Mexico, because that is never like 460 00:28:08,205 --> 00:28:10,065 one of the countries that is discussed. 461 00:28:10,065 --> 00:28:12,225 We usually discuss Paraguay Panama. 462 00:28:12,225 --> 00:28:15,405 Those two countries seem to really pop up and El Salvador, 463 00:28:15,405 --> 00:28:16,995 but I feel like that wave. 464 00:28:17,775 --> 00:28:21,795 Of El Salvador was probably more popular going back four years ago. 465 00:28:21,795 --> 00:28:24,495 Now it's more Panama and Para where they keep popping up. 466 00:28:24,885 --> 00:28:28,515 But Mexico is an interesting one because, um, I think the first 467 00:28:28,515 --> 00:28:33,405 association most people will have in Australia with Mexico is the crime rate. 468 00:28:33,795 --> 00:28:37,965 There were two, two Australians recently, I think a year or two ago, 469 00:28:37,965 --> 00:28:40,065 murdered there on, on a holiday. 470 00:28:40,065 --> 00:28:42,795 So I think that kind of might, yeah, put a lot of people off. 471 00:28:43,485 --> 00:28:44,025 Katie: Yeah. 472 00:28:44,025 --> 00:28:47,505 And uh, in the United States, that's what people think about the moment. 473 00:28:47,505 --> 00:28:48,615 You say Mexico too. 474 00:28:49,485 --> 00:28:54,585 I spent almost a year there, was constantly traveling to Mexico 475 00:28:55,005 --> 00:28:56,985 and it was in the COVID times. 476 00:28:57,015 --> 00:29:00,255 Um, I felt safe, but I wasn't being stupid. 477 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,410 So you have to, you have to watch yourself there for sure. 478 00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:06,930 Um, and you don't play stupid games. 479 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,820 Um, but also you're not at risk if you're not trying, trying to run local business. 480 00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:15,060 You know, your for foreigner was an online income. 481 00:29:15,330 --> 00:29:16,800 You're probably safe forever. 482 00:29:17,670 --> 00:29:24,930 Um, but yeah, Mexico has been, I feel like while many countries in Latin America are 483 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:28,080 on a rise, I can't say that about Mexico. 484 00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:29,940 So, um. 485 00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:30,915 Maybe. 486 00:29:30,915 --> 00:29:34,035 Maybe worth, worth noticing that. 487 00:29:35,055 --> 00:29:35,475 Anja: Yeah. 488 00:29:35,715 --> 00:29:36,585 But it's beautiful. 489 00:29:37,695 --> 00:29:37,935 Yeah. 490 00:29:37,935 --> 00:29:38,955 Um, yep. 491 00:29:38,955 --> 00:29:42,975 But yeah, just going back to the small government, low regulation, 492 00:29:43,005 --> 00:29:47,505 reasonable taxation, would you also say that a lot of the South American 493 00:29:47,505 --> 00:29:49,725 countries kind of fit that bill? 494 00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:55,350 Katie: Not too many, but yeah, so Panama, I was not a fan of Panama. 495 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,980 I always thought Panama was, uh, in bed, was the us. 496 00:29:59,490 --> 00:30:03,930 Um, it like, I, it just didn't get me excited for a very long time. 497 00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:08,940 But just lately, very lately, like in the last six months, I'm starting 498 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:12,855 to become more curious about that. 499 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,980 So I'll definitely be watching what's happening in Panama. 500 00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:19,440 Um, but yet again, um. 501 00:30:20,175 --> 00:30:21,975 I haven't been bullish this whole time. 502 00:30:22,815 --> 00:30:28,545 Um, El Salvador, I'm very bullish just because I did my research very deeply. 503 00:30:28,545 --> 00:30:33,465 I spent so much time there and I was feet on the ground. 504 00:30:33,765 --> 00:30:37,905 I saw how the regulation changes towards the free market. 505 00:30:38,505 --> 00:30:42,195 They basically said, look, for 40 years, we had nothing. 506 00:30:42,225 --> 00:30:42,855 Nothing is built. 507 00:30:43,905 --> 00:30:46,335 We need people to come and get that done. 508 00:30:46,755 --> 00:30:50,685 And like as a, as a government, we can't move that quickly. 509 00:30:51,015 --> 00:30:53,865 So let's open up the free market, let's let people do what they 510 00:30:53,865 --> 00:30:56,355 want to do, and guess what? 511 00:30:56,715 --> 00:30:57,705 It works. 512 00:30:58,095 --> 00:31:00,585 People actually come and build beautiful things. 513 00:31:00,855 --> 00:31:06,525 So I firsthand experienced that, um, that like if you wanna do something 514 00:31:06,525 --> 00:31:11,175 else Salvador, and you find the regulation that is on your way. 515 00:31:11,655 --> 00:31:16,665 There is a way to change it very quickly, like you can make it happen. 516 00:31:16,665 --> 00:31:22,095 Like for example, home birth used to be prohibited in El Salvador and 517 00:31:22,335 --> 00:31:25,665 that like changes very quickly and people can do it now, and the midwife 518 00:31:25,725 --> 00:31:29,535 midwifery is, uh, you can be a licensed midwife there and all those things. 519 00:31:30,075 --> 00:31:31,815 Um, it used to be much harder. 520 00:31:31,815 --> 00:31:35,100 The whole medical freedom is becoming a big movement in El 521 00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,815 Salvador and because there's demand. 522 00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:39,990 They are changing rapidly. 523 00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:44,010 Their policies, obviously same happening with Bitcoin banks right now. 524 00:31:44,610 --> 00:31:47,940 They made Bitcoin legal tender and the financial institution said, 525 00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:53,460 look, we know that you say it's money, but the regulatory environment 526 00:31:53,460 --> 00:31:56,790 for banking to actually exchange dollars to Bitcoin is not friendly. 527 00:31:56,790 --> 00:31:57,510 So they changed. 528 00:31:57,540 --> 00:31:59,130 They made the Bitcoin bank law. 529 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:00,990 Same going for ai. 530 00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:03,990 They're trying to be the most AI friendly jurisdiction. 531 00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:08,460 So like, you know, Tesla, there are very few jurisdiction where you can use 532 00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:11,280 full self-driving, um, in the world. 533 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,280 And I'm a huge fan of this full self-driving. 534 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,900 As a mom with two kids needing snacks on the back, I can just turn it at at 535 00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:20,445 the pilot and I know that I'm safe. 536 00:32:21,585 --> 00:32:24,435 Like me thinking that other Juris jurisdictions are 537 00:32:24,435 --> 00:32:26,085 against, it blows my mind. 538 00:32:26,415 --> 00:32:33,345 So El Salvador did an AI policy, which is very open to, uh, new technology. 539 00:32:33,765 --> 00:32:36,315 So they're basic like that. 540 00:32:36,645 --> 00:32:38,775 I know firsthand that I experienced that. 541 00:32:38,805 --> 00:32:43,455 Yeah, if you wanna build something and a regulation is on your way, find 542 00:32:43,455 --> 00:32:47,985 your way to reach the right people and you can help to change it quickly. 543 00:32:49,455 --> 00:32:49,965 Um. 544 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,920 Argentina, I'm super curious for many reasons. 545 00:32:56,670 --> 00:33:03,600 Um, and yet I feel like there's so much internal drama going on that 546 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,640 they can't change things rapidly. 547 00:33:06,330 --> 00:33:08,775 So I'm watching very closely. 548 00:33:08,775 --> 00:33:09,780 I'm very curious. 549 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,820 Uh, part y seem to be on a, on an interesting path too, so, um, I'm 550 00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:16,260 definitely paying attention there. 551 00:33:17,130 --> 00:33:17,370 Yeah. 552 00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:18,970 Let's, let's see how that plays out. 553 00:33:19,890 --> 00:33:20,190 Anja: Yeah. 554 00:33:20,190 --> 00:33:20,970 Interesting. 555 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,440 And the other thing as well, I'm curious, like with El Salvador, like, I don't 556 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,910 expect you to know this, but I am not really fully across as to how many, 557 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:36,360 how long B B's been in in office for and for how long that would continue. 558 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,240 And if his approval rating is still as high as it was, you 559 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,250 know, when he first hit the scene. 560 00:33:41,670 --> 00:33:44,280 Um, do, do you know much about that? 561 00:33:44,285 --> 00:33:44,345 Like. 562 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,130 Katie: Yeah, so he was just reelected for his second term, uh, last year, I believe. 563 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:58,080 And, um, in 2007, 27, I believe there will be a vote to be able to 564 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,960 approve him running for a third term. 565 00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:07,260 So currently it is not, it is not acceptable, but there will be, uh, a 566 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:12,270 vote to allow him to do that, uh, and they will see if that's possible or not. 567 00:34:13,095 --> 00:34:14,775 Anja: Yeah, that, that's great to know. 568 00:34:15,135 --> 00:34:18,825 Um, and now I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about motherhood. 569 00:34:18,825 --> 00:34:22,125 So as you can imagine, Bitcoin is in Australia. 570 00:34:22,125 --> 00:34:23,655 We're going through a baby boom. 571 00:34:23,655 --> 00:34:27,825 People are having their second, their first, a lot of people are pregnant. 572 00:34:28,575 --> 00:34:32,745 Um, I'd love to know more from you in terms of what your experience 573 00:34:32,745 --> 00:34:35,245 as a mother in a Bitcoin has been and what's kind of the. 574 00:34:36,435 --> 00:34:38,655 Katie: Yeah, I feel like I'm, well. 575 00:34:38,685 --> 00:34:40,455 I'm definitely in the Bitcoin bubble. 576 00:34:40,725 --> 00:34:43,935 I moved to the United States as a 21-year-old who didn't speak 577 00:34:43,935 --> 00:34:46,665 the language, didn't have any connections or family here. 578 00:34:46,995 --> 00:34:51,195 Got into Bitcoin very early on in my immigration journey, so all the 579 00:34:51,195 --> 00:34:53,205 friends I acquired are Bitcoiners. 580 00:34:53,235 --> 00:34:57,705 I have no friends that are outside of this bubble, and now 581 00:34:57,705 --> 00:34:59,715 we're all having kids together. 582 00:34:59,715 --> 00:35:03,195 Like yesterday, I went out with four of my girlfriends. 583 00:35:03,285 --> 00:35:04,965 We're literally all pregnant. 584 00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:09,240 I'm pregnant with my third, some of them with their seconds. 585 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:13,230 And yeah, our families are grow like we, we procreate very quickly. 586 00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:20,460 Um, so it's really nice to have this community, like once you. 587 00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:24,870 Once you go through motherhood, you truly need other moms around. 588 00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:27,240 And Bitcoin community definitely provides that. 589 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:30,210 We have Bitcoin Moms Group chat on Telegram that is 590 00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:31,530 pretty awesome and active. 591 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,360 Um, I have a local community of Bitcoin moms here in Austin, Texas. 592 00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:38,910 And um, it's wonderful. 593 00:35:38,910 --> 00:35:44,100 It's definitely the support system many moms need, but not always get. 594 00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:50,220 Um, and uh, I definitely, I definitely have that support system and truly. 595 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,200 Truly appreciate that. 596 00:35:53,310 --> 00:36:00,060 We also have very similar parenting style, mothering style, like many of us 597 00:36:00,060 --> 00:36:07,740 are opting out of, uh, let's say hospital birth even, or like painkillers during, 598 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:09,630 during the childbirth and all of the. 599 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,590 Is fed by the low time preference. 600 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,270 Like if we talk about labor, I truly believe that unmedicated 601 00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:20,220 birth is easier on the mother. 602 00:36:20,850 --> 00:36:25,020 And in the moment you don't believe that you want every painkiller 603 00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:28,470 there is, but then I believe the recovery is gonna be harder. 604 00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:30,360 The actual labor is harder on the body. 605 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:30,630 Yes. 606 00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:31,410 You don't feel it. 607 00:36:32,325 --> 00:36:34,155 You'll pay that bill later. 608 00:36:34,905 --> 00:36:40,815 Um, so we all choose unmedicated home birth because again, we believe that 609 00:36:40,875 --> 00:36:46,365 low time preference, this is what's better for, for me and for the baby. 610 00:36:46,845 --> 00:36:52,485 So the similar choices come from similar principles that are also fed by Bitcoin. 611 00:36:53,115 --> 00:36:58,125 Um, and, um, that's been convenient and comfortable to be able to talk 612 00:36:58,125 --> 00:36:59,865 about these things with other mothers. 613 00:37:00,705 --> 00:37:04,875 Um, and then we all noticed that our diets are literally the same. 614 00:37:04,875 --> 00:37:07,335 Like in the group chat we just discussed. 615 00:37:07,755 --> 00:37:13,425 I say, well, my kids really love rice, and in order to like feel better about giving 616 00:37:13,425 --> 00:37:17,145 them rice, I just boil it in a bone broth. 617 00:37:18,045 --> 00:37:21,620 I said it in a group chat and like every mother was like, me too, me too. 618 00:37:22,755 --> 00:37:26,805 We never discussed it, but because we are on a similar diet, we do 619 00:37:26,805 --> 00:37:28,035 the same things for our kids. 620 00:37:28,035 --> 00:37:31,995 So, um, it's almost funny how similarly we think. 621 00:37:32,865 --> 00:37:34,725 Anja: Yeah, that, that, that's a great tip. 622 00:37:34,755 --> 00:37:38,175 Um, but the group that you mentioned on Telegram, is that 623 00:37:38,175 --> 00:37:42,195 like an open global group for moms, or is it more localized and 624 00:37:43,545 --> 00:37:45,075 Katie: that one is definitely open. 625 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:50,580 I created a, because I like, there was a big baby boom on Twitter and I was 626 00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:52,110 like, man, everybody's having babies. 627 00:37:52,110 --> 00:37:56,220 And I was, at the time, I think pregnant was my second and I just invited all 628 00:37:56,220 --> 00:37:58,110 the moms into the telegram group chat. 629 00:37:58,110 --> 00:38:02,250 So if anybody wants an invite, you guys are welcome. 630 00:38:02,250 --> 00:38:04,260 Just reach out to my dms on Twitter. 631 00:38:06,210 --> 00:38:08,340 Anja: I'm sure you're gonna get a few requests there. 632 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,330 Um, before we wrap up, Katie, is there anything else you wanna say? 633 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,260 Katie: Well, um. 634 00:38:14,265 --> 00:38:19,065 One thing that I feel is very important in the flag theory world that has 635 00:38:19,065 --> 00:38:21,855 not been discussed is the tribe. 636 00:38:22,395 --> 00:38:27,045 And again, just like I discussed how important it was, um, for me to find other 637 00:38:27,045 --> 00:38:31,515 Bitcoin moms with similar principles, this is the thing that shouldn't be 638 00:38:31,515 --> 00:38:36,465 overlooked when you're locating right, you are moving to a different jurisdiction. 639 00:38:36,495 --> 00:38:38,205 There are reasons you're moving there. 640 00:38:38,775 --> 00:38:42,135 And if you have a community of people who think the same. 641 00:38:43,095 --> 00:38:48,495 It'll be very easy for you to find your new lifestyle and build your 642 00:38:48,495 --> 00:38:52,665 new style lifestyle with the tips of those that think similarly. 643 00:38:52,965 --> 00:38:57,375 So that's why, um, I believe El Salvador is so easy for Bitcoiners to 644 00:38:57,375 --> 00:39:02,895 move to because we think similarly, similarly, like it's only been what, 645 00:39:02,895 --> 00:39:07,605 four months since El Salvador got on, got on our Raiders, yet I get 646 00:39:07,605 --> 00:39:09,615 there and I need my sourdough and my. 647 00:39:10,050 --> 00:39:14,250 Grass fed beef and Bitcoiners already built it because again, they knew 648 00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:15,720 that there will be demand for that. 649 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,950 And they built it ahead of time for all of us to come and appreciate it. 650 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:26,940 So, um, this like, this is an important thing to have the tribe, 651 00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:32,160 and tribe is another flag, uh, in your citizenship residency, bank account, 652 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:38,580 offshore trust, and the tribe, um, to be, to have something to rely on. 653 00:39:39,165 --> 00:39:43,485 So that's something for your Australian fellows to consider. 654 00:39:44,145 --> 00:39:50,445 Um, find the people that you're vibing with, um, and ask where they're going 655 00:39:50,445 --> 00:39:52,095 and maybe that's a good place for you. 656 00:39:53,355 --> 00:39:53,715 Anja: Yeah. 657 00:39:53,715 --> 00:39:56,655 And just the last question on, on El Salvador, 'cause you're 658 00:39:56,655 --> 00:39:58,065 really selling it to me now. 659 00:39:58,275 --> 00:40:02,355 Um, in terms of like a lot of Australians being there, are they mostly 660 00:40:02,355 --> 00:40:04,635 based in the capitol or the beach? 661 00:40:05,715 --> 00:40:06,285 Katie: Bitch. 662 00:40:06,375 --> 00:40:08,355 Well, beach mostly, I'd say. 663 00:40:08,355 --> 00:40:08,835 Yeah, course 664 00:40:08,835 --> 00:40:09,210 Anja: we are. 665 00:40:09,795 --> 00:40:13,545 Katie: Yeah, I mean, it seems like you guys the most comfortable 666 00:40:13,545 --> 00:40:15,315 with this, uh, with this climate. 667 00:40:15,885 --> 00:40:19,635 I, as a Russian born and raised in Siberia. 668 00:40:20,070 --> 00:40:26,340 I, I feel somehow very comfortable in a humid, beachy environment that is hot. 669 00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:30,270 I don't have a problem with that, but I know many, many Europeans do. 670 00:40:30,270 --> 00:40:33,870 So that's why they choose, go into the mountains or go into the city 'cause it's 671 00:40:33,870 --> 00:40:36,150 less humid and kind of a little cooler. 672 00:40:37,020 --> 00:40:41,340 But yeah, fellow Australians don't mind the humidity and, uh, they 673 00:40:41,340 --> 00:40:42,630 hang out at the Bitcoin beach. 674 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,920 And Bitcoin beach is the mind blowing place truly. 675 00:40:48,705 --> 00:40:53,385 I'm on the beach buying a c coconut from a 60-year-old lady 676 00:40:53,385 --> 00:40:57,885 for a dollar 50, and I have like, I'm on a, I'm in a bathing suit. 677 00:40:57,885 --> 00:41:02,025 I have no cash on me, but I have my phone and I'm like, will you accept lightning? 678 00:41:02,205 --> 00:41:03,105 She's like, sure. 679 00:41:03,795 --> 00:41:08,685 And she pulls up her wallet like she's an elderly lady who. 680 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:14,250 Probably lives in a very low income who's just selling coconuts that she acquired 681 00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:18,720 for free in the forest on the beach, and she pulls up a wallet and like, here's the 682 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:21,030 invoice and I pay lightning and that's it. 683 00:41:21,690 --> 00:41:22,800 Mind blowing place. 684 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,760 Everybody accepts Bitcoin there and uh, yeah, it's hard to 685 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,250 believe and it's quite pure. 686 00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:32,670 In terms of Bitcoin maximalism, I haven't seen a single sign 687 00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:34,620 accepting any other currency. 688 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:36,555 It's all accepting Bitcoin so. 689 00:41:37,545 --> 00:41:41,805 Bitcoin beach as a circular economy truly worth visiting. 690 00:41:41,985 --> 00:41:47,265 Just, just to recognize like, man, we are way further than I thought we 691 00:41:47,265 --> 00:41:49,575 are in this Bitcoin adoption journey. 692 00:41:50,505 --> 00:41:54,015 Anja: I am getting goosebumps because, yeah, Bitcoin being a medium of exchange, 693 00:41:54,015 --> 00:41:57,015 like hearing that that's already happening somewhere in the world, you 694 00:41:57,015 --> 00:42:00,405 know, just because it's not accepted widely doesn't mean that it's not there. 695 00:42:00,405 --> 00:42:03,135 So that's, yeah, very inspirational story to end with. 696 00:42:03,615 --> 00:42:04,845 Thanks for your time, Katie. 697 00:42:05,685 --> 00:42:06,585 Katie: Absolutely. 698 00:42:06,585 --> 00:42:07,575 Well, anytime. 699 00:42:07,905 --> 00:42:12,525 I really, I really love to brainstorm with people on what jurisdiction would 700 00:42:14,145 --> 00:42:16,575 fill up their needs, suit, their needs. 701 00:42:16,965 --> 00:42:20,325 Um, so we have free consultations on our website. 702 00:42:20,325 --> 00:42:24,525 Just create an account, schedule a call, and we'll spend 30 minutes brainstorming 703 00:42:24,615 --> 00:42:29,715 on what are your goals and needs and what jurisdiction fits your, fits your vibe. 704 00:42:30,525 --> 00:42:31,785 Uh, so thank you. 705 00:42:32,595 --> 00:42:32,895 Anja: Yep. 706 00:42:32,955 --> 00:42:33,675 That's awesome. 707 00:42:33,675 --> 00:42:37,935 I can already see a few people potentially reaching out to take that up. 708 00:42:37,995 --> 00:42:38,655 Um, yeah. 709 00:42:38,685 --> 00:42:39,315 Thanks again. 710 00:42:40,035 --> 00:42:41,055 Katie: Yeah, anytime. 711 00:42:41,565 --> 00:42:42,254 Well, thank you. 712 00:42:42,573 --> 00:42:45,813 Speaker 2: That's it for this week on The Honest Money Show, a big 713 00:42:45,813 --> 00:42:50,673 shout out again to shop bitcoin.com au for making this episode possible. 714 00:42:51,123 --> 00:42:55,293 Until next week, stay smart with your money and stay decentralized.