Colin Casey (00:00:08):
Hi, welcome to Sober Banter.

Colin Casey (00:00:09):
I am Colin.

Rachel Casey (00:00:10):
And I am Rachel.

Rachel Casey (00:00:11):
Today we are joined by Kristen Cocker.

Rachel Casey (00:00:14):
She is a mother,

Rachel Casey (00:00:15):
stepmother,

Rachel Casey (00:00:17):
writer,

Rachel Casey (00:00:18):
and she is a big advocate for breaking the silence around alcoholism or

Rachel Casey (00:00:23):
sobriety and different terms that we use.

Rachel Casey (00:00:26):
Kristen holds an MFA in creative writing and is currently on Substack, which is how we met.

Rachel Casey (00:00:32):
She shares just really raw,

Rachel Casey (00:00:34):
real,

Rachel Casey (00:00:35):
insightful things about sobriety,

Rachel Casey (00:00:38):
parenting,

Rachel Casey (00:00:39):
and living without alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:00:41):
You also run an entire tree work business, which I am curious to hear.

Rachel Casey (00:00:45):
I think it says chainsaws to motherhood.

Rachel Casey (00:00:48):
Oh, wow.

Rachel Casey (00:00:49):
So welcome, Kristen.

Rachel Casey (00:00:50):
Thank you.

Rachel Casey (00:00:52):
yeah we have tried so hard to schedule this because of both of us having well you

Rachel Casey (00:00:57):
have more kids than i do i have one single kid hey they all get sick the same

Kristen Crocker (00:01:01):
amount i mean they like kid kids are little germ factories that's for sure for you

Colin Casey (00:01:06):
that's got to be almost two month process when one gets it by the time yeah yeah we

Kristen Crocker (00:01:11):
had a pretty brutal we had a pretty brutal winter

Kristen Crocker (00:01:15):
Oh, wow.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:16):
So we have eight kids together combined.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:18):
So my husband and I, we're a blended family.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:20):
So my four stepkids are 14, 10, 8, and 6.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:25):
My boys are, I have a 7-year-old set of twins and then a 6-year-old.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:30):
So the two littlest boys are just one month apart.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:33):
And then we have a 15-month-old.

Colin Casey (00:01:35):
If ever there was a time to do the Brady Bunch boxes in the intro.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:40):
Yeah, it's funny because people always say, oh, the Brady Bunch.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:42):
And I'm always like, and some.

Colin Casey (00:01:44):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:45):
It's not just that.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:46):
So it is six boys and two girls.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:49):
So I always joke.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:52):
So our baby was a planned baby.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:54):
We wanted to have a baby together.

Kristen Crocker (00:01:56):
And definitely everybody thought we were like huge idiots because we already had seven kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:00):
And we have all of them primary custody, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:03):
So we have all of them almost all the time.

Rachel Casey (00:02:06):
Yeah, go ahead.

Rachel Casey (00:02:07):
We want to hear about a little bit of where you are in your life.

Rachel Casey (00:02:11):
Who are you?

Rachel Casey (00:02:12):
Who is Krista?

Kristen Crocker (00:02:13):
Yep, that's an excellent question.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:16):
Still learning.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:18):
Yeah, so when I met my husband, I was actually sober already.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:21):
It was taking me a minute to remember what it was.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:23):
So my sobriety date is December 19, 2022.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:27):
And the reason why I get confused on it is because the whole entire year prior... So I...

Kristen Crocker (00:02:34):
I spent most of that year sober, but I had like a couple of like mini relapses in between.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:38):
And so I always get confused because it was 12-12-21 when I really started getting

Kristen Crocker (00:02:44):
some time,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:45):
like consecutive time,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:46):
because I'd been attempting to get time for a long time.

Kristen Crocker (00:02:50):
So I had like a couple of three-month spurts,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:53):
but it wasn't until December 19th of 2022 that I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:02:58):
I can't do this anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:00):
And I was actually in AA for that, I would say, that entire year prior.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:04):
So I had been reading a lot of sober, like a lot of the top sobriety books.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:10):
I had joined the luckiest club.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:12):
So I did that book.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:14):
We Are the Luckiest by Laura McCowan was a big deal in my sobriety journey.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:18):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:19):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:20):
And I think that what was so impactful for me in that book was,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:23):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:23):
here was a strong,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:25):
smart woman who just like alcohol was ruining her life,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:29):
you know.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:30):
And so it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:32):
for me,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:32):
in coming to terms with the fact that I couldn't drink,

Kristen Crocker (00:03:35):
like I didn't have a low bottom.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:36):
I just wasn't showing up in life the way that I wanted to show up anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:40):
And since I had had my kids, I didn't really, I didn't have any legal trouble.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:44):
I held a job, you know, I owned my house.

Kristen Crocker (00:03:46):
I was married.

Rachel Casey (00:03:47):
That was the same with us.

Rachel Casey (00:03:48):
It was very internal.

Rachel Casey (00:03:49):
Yeah, we didn't, we didn't lose the house.

Rachel Casey (00:03:51):
We weren't losing our son.

Colin Casey (00:03:52):
We could have gone lower.

Colin Casey (00:03:53):
We could have.

Rachel Casey (00:03:54):
Right, right, right.

Colin Casey (00:03:55):
And thankfully we didn't, because I mean, I'm still reminded of, I was, I feel like,

Colin Casey (00:04:01):
this close to losing my job when someone kind of questioned my sobriety at work.

Colin Casey (00:04:08):
And so that was and I work at a place that has a zero alcohol tolerance.

Colin Casey (00:04:12):
So when I came back from a lunch break,

Colin Casey (00:04:14):
Yeah,

Colin Casey (00:04:15):
it was kind of obvious,

Colin Casey (00:04:16):
and I blamed Don a bunch of cold medicines and drugs and stressed at home and

Colin Casey (00:04:21):
played it off that way.

Rachel Casey (00:04:23):
He blamed his wife.

Colin Casey (00:04:24):
Yeah, well, that's the go-to.

Colin Casey (00:04:26):
If I had lost that job,

Colin Casey (00:04:27):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:04:28):
talk about really hitting rock bottom,

Colin Casey (00:04:30):
and that happened maybe three months before we got sober.

Colin Casey (00:04:33):
That was gearing up towards the end.

Colin Casey (00:04:35):
That was around June when that happened, and our sobriety date's November.

Colin Casey (00:04:39):
It was really ramping up those last couple months before we got sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:04:42):
So November, was that...

Kristen Crocker (00:04:44):
just before thanksgiving or yeah giving okay week of yeah oh my gosh and so that's

Rachel Casey (00:04:50):
why i identify so much with what you're saying and i think we're seeing this

Rachel Casey (00:04:55):
cultural shift of you don't have to lose everything before you say it's enough with

Rachel Casey (00:05:01):
alcohol it's okay to just say you can tap out early yeah right i haven't relapsed

Rachel Casey (00:05:06):
since taking my first desire chip but i tried many many times before to quit

Rachel Casey (00:05:12):
drinking

Rachel Casey (00:05:12):
And so I totally relate with you saying,

Rachel Casey (00:05:15):
cause I think had I not had the dry January's and sober October's of like those two

Rachel Casey (00:05:19):
years prior and trying to do a whole 30,

Rachel Casey (00:05:22):
those were my proof that like,

Rachel Casey (00:05:24):
I can't stay sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:25):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:26):
And a couple of times that I relapsed,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:27):
it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:28):
I was out of town or like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:29):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:29):
I'm not hurting my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:31):
So, um, so I was on a trip, you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:33):
And so I'm like, okay, well, this is a freebie.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:36):
And so, so that, I mean, I, I even texted my best friend and I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:05:39):
I was like, well, what if I only drink when I'm out of state?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:43):
What about that?

Kristen Crocker (00:05:44):
And she was like, well, as long as you don't start driving to Virginia to get a drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:48):
And I was just like, of course, I wouldn't do that.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:50):
But then I was like, well, Virginia, you're right.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:51):
I'm on the East Coast.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:52):
The states aren't very big over here.

Rachel Casey (00:05:53):
This is so much easier than the West Coast stuff.

Rachel Casey (00:05:57):
Let's go.

Rachel Casey (00:05:58):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:05:59):
So actually that was the part in the big book in AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:03):
There's a part in the big book where in this chapter,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:05):
more about alcoholism,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:06):
where it says,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:07):
here are some of the methods we have tried,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:08):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:08):
and it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:09):
we tried switching to beer.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:10):
We promised we would never drink on the job, but you know, we would do this.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:13):
We would do that.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:14):
We would do this.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:15):
And it, and you just end up drunk.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:18):
You know, it never worked out.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:20):
So I feel like in that year,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:21):
those were the couple of things that happened to me where it was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:23):
I cannot.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:24):
And it's not even that I can't drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:26):
It's that it's not a risk I'm willing to take any longer.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:29):
Like, I don't know where.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:31):
And this is obviously a very common phrase in AA that kind of like,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:34):
I don't know where the drink will lead me,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:36):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:06:36):
and that I just can't.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:37):
That's not a risk that I can take.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:38):
And so that is one of my original missions with with my Substack and with my

Kristen Crocker (00:06:43):
writing.

Kristen Crocker (00:06:44):
was to work on that word to to see if I could move the needle you know kind of join

Kristen Crocker (00:06:48):
in the conversation about the word alcoholic and alcoholism and does alcoholic have

Kristen Crocker (00:06:52):
to be a bad word and that was really kind of like one of my big missions because I

Kristen Crocker (00:06:56):
was just like alcoholic just means a person whose body doesn't respond well to

Kristen Crocker (00:07:01):
alcohol like do we does it need to have this negative connotation and so I'm

Kristen Crocker (00:07:05):
actually kind of in a funny place with that where I'm just like do I need to change

Kristen Crocker (00:07:08):
the meaning of that word or is it just like too much

Kristen Crocker (00:07:10):
So there might just be too much cultural connotation, negative connotation against that word.

Kristen Crocker (00:07:15):
And like,

Rachel Casey (00:07:15):
well,

Rachel Casey (00:07:16):
no,

Rachel Casey (00:07:16):
I totally understand,

Rachel Casey (00:07:17):
though,

Rachel Casey (00:07:17):
because in like it's different when I think the scenarios I would say when you're

Rachel Casey (00:07:24):
in the rooms and you're around a bunch of other people with alcoholics,

Rachel Casey (00:07:29):
like it doesn't feel like a negative word.

Rachel Casey (00:07:32):
It feels like literally just a word or.

Kristen Crocker (00:07:34):
thrown around like that's how you you introduce yourself you know some people say i

Kristen Crocker (00:07:38):
have a desire to be sober some people say i'm in recovery or whatever but a lot of

Kristen Crocker (00:07:41):
different obviously like the everybody is seen in a movie you know it's not just an

Rachel Casey (00:07:46):
alcoholic i know right and the stigma really comes when it's outside of the rooms

Rachel Casey (00:07:52):
or

Rachel Casey (00:07:53):
alcoholic to me is not a negative label until you talk to someone who does not deal

Rachel Casey (00:08:00):
with alcoholism in their family or around.

Rachel Casey (00:08:04):
Like I'm talking about a true normie normie.

Rachel Casey (00:08:07):
They're just like, oh my gosh, are you in the gutters?

Rachel Casey (00:08:09):
No.

Rachel Casey (00:08:10):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (00:08:11):
No, seriously.

Rachel Casey (00:08:12):
Like, are you going to get contagious?

Rachel Casey (00:08:14):
Do I need to watch you?

Rachel Casey (00:08:15):
Do I need to worry?

Colin Casey (00:08:16):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:08:17):
Like you can't handle any sort of life situations.

Colin Casey (00:08:20):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:20):
I go back and forth because I'm like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:22):
okay,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:23):
but the grittiness of the word alcoholic and the ugliness of that word,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:27):
maybe that's okay.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:29):
You know what I mean?

Kristen Crocker (00:08:29):
Because like for me, it was an ugly situation.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:32):
It was not a good thing that I did to myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:34):
But at the same time,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:35):
like you're saying,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:36):
it's like people are just trying to take this like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:39):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:39):
like an alcoholic.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:41):
Or it's whispered in families like, oh, they're an alcoholic.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:44):
Oh, they couldn't hold a drop alcoholic.

(00:08:46):
But they didn't.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:47):
It's like on the other side of all that negativity for women and moms,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:52):
it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:53):
oh,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:53):
here's your mommy juice.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:54):
Oh, of course you're drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:55):
You have to get through the day.

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
Or,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:08:56):
you mentioned the piece I just had on the sober up Substack about drinking at the

Kristen Crocker (00:09:01):
pool,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:01):
you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:09:02):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:09:02):
So it's like we get there and,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:03):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:04):
everybody's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:05):
oh my God,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:05):
you have all those kids,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:06):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:06):
take a white claw,

Kristen Crocker (00:09:07):
you know?

Kristen Crocker (00:09:07):
And why is that the norm?

Rachel Casey (00:09:09):
Like who says that?

Rachel Casey (00:09:10):
Here, be unpresent.

Rachel Casey (00:09:12):
And like when you're around water, which can be super dangerous with kids.

Rachel Casey (00:09:17):
who said that but that is how people that don't probably have a drinking problem

Rachel Casey (00:09:23):
they think it just like maybe takes the edge off but that's not what it does for me

Rachel Casey (00:09:28):
it ruins my life it takes and then all i can think about is the next drink and now

Rachel Casey (00:09:31):
i'm not thinking about kids in the water i'm thinking about how do i get more

Rachel Casey (00:09:35):
liquor to this pool and still be able to compose myself i feel like that's just

Colin Casey (00:09:39):
been etched in the culture for so even our parents generation but it shouldn't be

Colin Casey (00:09:45):
like no it shouldn't be but

Rachel Casey (00:09:46):
That's that fueled my alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:09:48):
That it was normal that as a mom or as a. It's like you're right.

Rachel Casey (00:09:53):
It's you deserve it.

Rachel Casey (00:09:55):
You.

Rachel Casey (00:09:55):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:09:56):
Even to someone who does not have alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:09:58):
Why are we encouraging?

Rachel Casey (00:10:00):
Because alcohol in the DSM, it's in the same category as drug use.

Rachel Casey (00:10:05):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:10:06):
We don't say, hey, why don't you go do a bump in a line to stay awake at the pool?

Rachel Casey (00:10:10):
Go to some cocaine like you deserve it.

Rachel Casey (00:10:13):
right no one says that because that would be crazy well no normie says that but

Rachel Casey (00:10:19):
yeah no normie or anyone like you know it's the same like hey alcohol it's a

Rachel Casey (00:10:24):
depressant number one yeah or if you replace that hey go take a a prozac a klonopin

Rachel Casey (00:10:30):
a xanax you deserve right you deserve the edge off no one says that right

Rachel Casey (00:10:35):
It's very similar to alcohol and it's super dangerous for people that have an

Rachel Casey (00:10:41):
allergy that makes them like want more.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:43):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:44):
My husband is actually a normie like through and through.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:47):
He doesn't drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:48):
I've seen him drink like twice because we like went to dinner.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:50):
It was like when we first got together.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:52):
I was like, you don't have to not drink because I am not drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:56):
I'm like, you can do whatever you want.

Kristen Crocker (00:10:57):
He orders the Corona and drinks half of it.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:01):
That's always my joke.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:02):
He said his tummy hurts.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:03):
You don't have a 4% beer and you have a tummy ache?

Colin Casey (00:11:07):
Lovely.

Colin Casey (00:11:08):
The way the Lyme interacted with everything.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:11):
And then he had me drive.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:12):
Because he's wasted.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:16):
Are you serious?

Kristen Crocker (00:11:17):
He's just like, I mean, I don't know.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:18):
Anyway, it is funny because he, so he obviously is super, super supportive.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:23):
Going back to what you were saying about,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:25):
he has learned a lot about the program of AA and he does some...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:30):
We'll get into Al-Anon later.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:32):
So Al-Anon is a little bit of a...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:35):
Since he met me in sobriety,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:37):
sometimes he feels like he doesn't quite belong in Al-Anon because...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:40):
Do you remember the movie Half-Baked with Dave Chappelle where he goes to that,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:44):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:45):
drug...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:45):
Or maybe,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
yeah,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:47):
the thing,

Kristen Crocker (00:11:48):
and he's saying...

Kristen Crocker (00:11:49):
Bob Saget.

(00:11:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:11:52):
And then Dave Chappelle, yeah.

Colin Casey (00:11:55):
Yeah, but weed is like, no.

Rachel Casey (00:11:57):
And they're throwing tomatoes at himself.

Colin Casey (00:11:59):
Do this, man.

Rachel Casey (00:12:00):
And that downplays alcoholism, which isn't fair.

Rachel Casey (00:12:04):
I'm like, NA really isn't like that.

Rachel Casey (00:12:06):
They are very inclusive of alcohol, but yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:08):
And also weed is...

Rachel Casey (00:12:10):
Another one that people think it's not addictive.

Rachel Casey (00:12:14):
It 1000% is.

Colin Casey (00:12:15):
I like your story when you talk to your sponsor about weed.

Rachel Casey (00:12:19):
I did the same thing, by the way.

Rachel Casey (00:12:20):
Just so you feel like you're not alone.

Rachel Casey (00:12:22):
You talk about Virginia trying to drive over there.

Rachel Casey (00:12:25):
The negotiation.

Rachel Casey (00:12:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:26):
I thought it would be okay.

Rachel Casey (00:12:28):
It was my first month or two sober and I was just like to my sponsor.

Rachel Casey (00:12:32):
What do they do in Colorado where weed's legal?

Rachel Casey (00:12:35):
How do you...

Rachel Casey (00:12:37):
What are they like there?

Rachel Casey (00:12:38):
And she's like, what do you mean?

Rachel Casey (00:12:40):
And I was like, well, because weed's legal, you can go smoke over there.

Rachel Casey (00:12:44):
If I go to Colorado, I can smoke.

Rachel Casey (00:12:47):
And she's like, Rachel, alcohol is legal.

Rachel Casey (00:12:50):
And you can drink it here.

Rachel Casey (00:12:51):
Just because something is legal does not mean you are not an addict.

Rachel Casey (00:12:56):
He was like, oh, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:12:59):
Okay, because I was like, maybe we could move to Colorado.

Rachel Casey (00:13:01):
And this is something we do not, I don't know that we've talked about because it's been so long.

Rachel Casey (00:13:09):
And this brings back this memory of in the beginning...

Rachel Casey (00:13:13):
And your Virginia story, like when you were newer in sobriety, your brain does try to escape.

Rachel Casey (00:13:18):
I mean, it is a full-time job because my brain was thinking, okay, I can't drink, right?

Rachel Casey (00:13:23):
I've accepted.

Rachel Casey (00:13:24):
I have alcoholism.

Rachel Casey (00:13:26):
I have step one, two, and three.

Rachel Casey (00:13:28):
I have the allergy.

Rachel Casey (00:13:29):
Now my brain goes, what else can we, like, where can we move to?

Rachel Casey (00:13:33):
Almost like the alien predator or the last of us.

Rachel Casey (00:13:36):
Like it's got to go somewhere.

Rachel Casey (00:13:37):
I wasn't even a big weed smoker.

Rachel Casey (00:13:39):
I would do edibles every now and then.

Rachel Casey (00:13:41):
Usually it was after drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:13:43):
But my brain played that trick,

Rachel Casey (00:13:46):
and had I not had a sponsor,

Rachel Casey (00:13:47):
I could have maybe gone to Colorado and tried to sub weed.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:51):
Yeah, I definitely did have, honestly, some maladaptive coping mechanisms.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:56):
It's so normal, though.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:57):
Yeah, for sure.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:57):
For sure.

Kristen Crocker (00:13:59):
I had prescription anxiety medication, lorazepam, which is, like, not recommended.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:05):
Yeah, perfect.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:06):
People who have an alcohol issue or are prone to addiction.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:10):
I wouldn't say that I was addicted to it.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:12):
So if I felt it was too much, I would take that in that first year of sobriety.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:16):
So I don't count that as relapsing because it was like a prescription drug that I was taking.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:20):
But it wasn't useful.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:21):
I don't take it anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:22):
It kind of got to, and that actually reminds me of Laura McCowan.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:25):
I think she said in her book that she took like

Kristen Crocker (00:14:28):
Oh, that night.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:28):
Or, you know, like something like that.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:30):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:31):
And that was powerful.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:33):
It was similar to that feeling where I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:14:35):
what the lorazepam started doing to me was I would just like pass out.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:40):
And so I was like, this is too familiar to the passing out of.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:44):
So anyway, so I did obviously stop taking that.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:47):
And I didn't have any kind of like withdrawal or any real issue with stopping it.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:51):
I was just kind of like, this is a pain in the ass.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:53):
I have to feel my feelings.

Kristen Crocker (00:14:54):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:14:55):
But in your reference to Laura McCowan, it was a really powerful move.

Rachel Casey (00:15:00):
And I don't think she wasn't not sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:03):
I don't think you were not sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:05):
I think that there is another thing that is not stressed about enough when we talk

Rachel Casey (00:15:10):
about getting sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:11):
There are levels.

Rachel Casey (00:15:12):
And obviously, I'm not saying... It's just like...

Rachel Casey (00:15:16):
quitting all your vices at once i think it's okay especially if you're with a

Rachel Casey (00:15:21):
doctor you're prescribed this stuff it's it's okay to ease into it if you will like

Rachel Casey (00:15:27):
obviously doing the best you can but at the same time i was on naltrexone before i

Rachel Casey (00:15:32):
got sober and that is a pill that will block

Rachel Casey (00:15:35):
the dopamine release of when you drink.

Rachel Casey (00:15:37):
And I struggled because my psychiatrist is like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:40):
well,

Rachel Casey (00:15:40):
if you're really only drinking a few,

Rachel Casey (00:15:42):
then you shouldn't have any problem taking this.

Rachel Casey (00:15:44):
And I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:15:45):
that raised my alertness to like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:48):
I remember trying to throw up that pill because I like wanted to drink and I'm

Rachel Casey (00:15:51):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:15:51):
I'm trying to throw up a pill.

Rachel Casey (00:15:53):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:15:54):
And I think I might have a problem.

Rachel Casey (00:15:56):
If you're trying to throw up a medicine that blocks that and you realize you want

Rachel Casey (00:16:00):
to drink so badly,

Rachel Casey (00:16:01):
you're like,

Rachel Casey (00:16:01):
how do I get this medication?

Rachel Casey (00:16:02):
Now my sister would ask, is it already going to block the drink?

Rachel Casey (00:16:05):
And it's like, Rachel, come on.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:08):
One thing I really have heard that I like is to quit the things in the order that

Kristen Crocker (00:16:12):
they're killing you.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:14):
You know, so that alcohol was definitely killing me the fastest.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:18):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:16:19):
When you're sober and you're not adding it with alcohol, because I used to drink on lorazepam.

Rachel Casey (00:16:24):
And I know that that's like something you're definitely not supposed to do.

Rachel Casey (00:16:27):
I would be super drunk and I'd be like, I'm stressed.

Rachel Casey (00:16:29):
I'm going to take this.

Rachel Casey (00:16:30):
And I mean, again, the amount of medications.

Rachel Casey (00:16:33):
Who did we talk about that?

Rachel Casey (00:16:34):
I was like, that doesn't apply to me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:35):
Those medications that say don't drink on them.

Rachel Casey (00:16:37):
Those are for losers.

Rachel Casey (00:16:39):
Those are for people that aren't pros like me.

Colin Casey (00:16:42):
Yeah, I remember seeing that.

Colin Casey (00:16:42):
It says not to consume more than two or three drinks.

Rachel Casey (00:16:45):
I was like, all my medications say that.

Rachel Casey (00:16:47):
They don't know me.

Colin Casey (00:16:48):
They don't know me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:49):
They don't know me.

Rachel Casey (00:16:50):
That's for the other people picking up.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:52):
So I smoked cigarettes while I was drinking.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:54):
And then obviously I quit smoking while I was pregnant.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:56):
I pointed upstairs because she's actually upstairs napping.

Kristen Crocker (00:16:59):
When I got pregnant with her, I quit smoking.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:01):
The thing that has always been funny to me is when I got pregnant,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:04):
no problem quitting drinking,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:06):
like no problem or smoking or anything that could potentially harm the baby.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:09):
I was eating leafy greens.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:11):
I was like living, I was doing everything humanly, at least with my twins.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:15):
With my first pregnancy,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:16):
I was all about everything that I could possibly do to give these babies the best

Kristen Crocker (00:17:20):
start.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:20):
It was so easy.

Kristen Crocker (00:17:22):
And so that was another thing that when I started trying to get sober that I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:17:26):
why was that so easy my love for them like that was such a no-brainer you know and

Kristen Crocker (00:17:31):
it was i didn't even miss it i didn't even think about it although sometimes i do

Kristen Crocker (00:17:34):
think that in my pregnancy with the twins i'm pretty sure i was just on a pink

Rachel Casey (00:17:38):
cloud but i didn't have a problem either like we weren't trying to get pregnant i

Rachel Casey (00:17:42):
didn't even think i could get pregnant to be honest i was like eight weeks when i

Rachel Casey (00:17:46):
found out not super but not like having the baby because i did not know i was

Rachel Casey (00:17:52):
pregnant right before

Rachel Casey (00:17:53):
I felt so guilty.

Rachel Casey (00:17:55):
I was so scared.

Rachel Casey (00:17:57):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:17:58):
I was in a rush to get a sonogram because I was... Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:18:01):
And I didn't tell anyone.

Rachel Casey (00:18:02):
I didn't tell doctors.

Rachel Casey (00:18:03):
I don't think I've said it till now.

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
and I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:18:05):
I don't know that we...

Colin Casey (00:18:07):
I think everyone told us the first couple weeks doesn't really affect.

Rachel Casey (00:18:11):
But I like would not touch a drop of alcohol because I was already worried.

Rachel Casey (00:18:15):
I think that was the most stressful seven months of like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:19):
I just wanted him to be born and I just wanted to see him.

Colin Casey (00:18:22):
Well,

Colin Casey (00:18:22):
I remember in the middle of your pregnancy,

Colin Casey (00:18:24):
because just like you,

Colin Casey (00:18:25):
Kristen,

Colin Casey (00:18:26):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:18:26):
she was feeling really good on her cloud nine.

Colin Casey (00:18:30):
At one point, she looked at me and said, I don't know if I'll ever drink again.

Colin Casey (00:18:33):
I did that too.

Rachel Casey (00:18:33):
I don't remember saying that.

Colin Casey (00:18:36):
she said that i remember thinking well i definitely don't want to live with someone

Colin Casey (00:18:41):
that doesn't want to drink anymore because i like drinking and i remember i was

Colin Casey (00:18:46):
telling people i was drinking for three because of her being pregnant my first

Kristen Crocker (00:18:51):
husband had a child so i had a stepson from my first marriage he was

Kristen Crocker (00:18:57):
13 or 14 years apart.

Kristen Crocker (00:18:58):
So he was 14 when I got, you know, 13, 14 when I got pregnant.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:03):
And he said to me, do you think you'll start drinking again?

Kristen Crocker (00:19:05):
And I remember I said, I don't know.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:08):
I am really enjoying this.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:09):
And I really, I mean, I really was.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:12):
And I was at that time, it's kind of interesting, I guess, thinking back.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:16):
So that would have been, they were born in 2017, almost eight years ago.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:20):
I knew

Kristen Crocker (00:19:22):
for a long, long, long, long time that I had an alcohol issue.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:26):
And I just kept thinking I would get it under control.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:28):
Or that, just again, kind of like, well, I'm still young.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:32):
But that was one of the first times I thought, well, this isn't so bad, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:37):
It wasn't like, because I was really, truly pink cloud.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:41):
Then they were born.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:43):
My twins were born, actually.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:46):
And then they were born and it was all off.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:50):
Well, well, so the crazy part about that.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:52):
So, so they were born eight weeks early.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:54):
So they were in the NICU for 40 days.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:56):
That was really, really, really rough.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:58):
They're all good now.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:58):
Everything's fine.

Kristen Crocker (00:19:59):
I was fortunate.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:00):
They were born at 32 weeks,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:01):
which is like not quite a cutoff,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:02):
but like,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:03):
that's kind of like when things were probably 36 for twins.

Rachel Casey (00:20:06):
Like that's very common.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:08):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:08):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:09):
So at 32, everything's probably going to be okay.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:12):
It was super, it was horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:13):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:14):
Horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:15):
No idea.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:15):
It was really bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:16):
But anyway, but so, so I was told that I was having a really hard time with milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:22):
I was trying to pump that.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:23):
So they weren't,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:24):
they couldn't nurse,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:25):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:25):
cause they were in their little incubator or whatever.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:28):
And so I was trying to pump and that was not going very well.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:31):
Somebody said that a beer would encourage milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:34):
And so that, that was, I was off to the races after that.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:37):
It was like, I was like, Oh, if I drink a stout.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:39):
So I found these 15% stouts.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:41):
I was like, well, just, this is good for the,

Kristen Crocker (00:20:43):
This is good for the milk.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:45):
Sleep great tonight.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:47):
For milk production.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:48):
So I did drink while I was breastfeeding.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:50):
And I have to like, my OB said that it was like, that was fine.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:55):
You know, she said not a whole lot gets passed to them.

Kristen Crocker (00:20:58):
I probably interpreted that as I wanted to hear it.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:01):
Being sober now.

Rachel Casey (00:21:01):
I drank with breastfeeding and had to like time interval.

Rachel Casey (00:21:05):
And I can't tell you how many milk test strips we bought, but it was way, way too many.

Rachel Casey (00:21:11):
and like I would label some for like a bath milk because I was like oops too much

Kristen Crocker (00:21:17):
too much margarita not for feeding yeah exactly exactly I would put the number of

Rachel Casey (00:21:28):
drinks I have and like what the milk tested as and

Rachel Casey (00:21:32):
Looking back, red flag.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:35):
And then I breastfed my third son from my second pregnancy.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:38):
I spent a lot of time Googling and texting my friends like, you think it's okay, right?

Kristen Crocker (00:21:42):
I think I'm really hungover.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:43):
You know, been just being scared.

Kristen Crocker (00:21:44):
So having this baby and not having to worry about any of those things with nursing

Kristen Crocker (00:21:48):
her has been such a...

Rachel Casey (00:21:51):
Oh, my God.

Rachel Casey (00:21:52):
It has to be the biggest mental because half of my brain was dedicated to how I

Rachel Casey (00:21:59):
could drink and breastfeed and pump and dump.

Rachel Casey (00:22:02):
And I'm like, this is just mortifying.

Rachel Casey (00:22:07):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:22:08):
i'm like god i need so then i would drink while feeding because it wouldn't hit my

Rachel Casey (00:22:13):
system and so then i remember that i remember doing that yeah yeah all these

Rachel Casey (00:22:18):
sentences are like most people who don't have a drinking problem don't ever wonder

Rachel Casey (00:22:23):
if they have a drinking problem i'm sure your husband has never thought do i have a

Rachel Casey (00:22:27):
drinking problem where i thought that after the third time i drink alcohol i'm like

Rachel Casey (00:22:30):
yeah

Rachel Casey (00:22:31):
do i have a drinking problem i thought that every single day my google search

Rachel Casey (00:22:35):
history how fast is the milk i was like a scientist man yeah yeah me too me too i

Kristen Crocker (00:22:42):
mean seriously well and again like it's like what like i just when i think about

Kristen Crocker (00:22:45):
like an aa word the insanity of that it's just like oh my god seriously but it was

Rachel Casey (00:22:51):
just totally normal oh it was worth it i'm like i won't forget

Rachel Casey (00:22:56):
pumping and dumping, sitting in a dive bar bathroom for fancy football.

Rachel Casey (00:23:02):
I'm in this closed stall,

Rachel Casey (00:23:04):
super drunk,

Rachel Casey (00:23:05):
looking at all this milk I'm going to throw in the toilet.

Rachel Casey (00:23:08):
And I was just like, this has to, like, it didn't feel good.

Rachel Casey (00:23:11):
Like, I remember that moment so clearly of being like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:14):
this doesn't even feel fun.

Rachel Casey (00:23:17):
This feels, it was sad.

Rachel Casey (00:23:18):
But what did I do?

Rachel Casey (00:23:19):
I continued drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:23:21):
And then I probably cried.

Rachel Casey (00:23:22):
And it was like, really, it was not fun.

Rachel Casey (00:23:26):
It became unfun more than it was fun,

Rachel Casey (00:23:30):
which is why I think at the point that it came where I was just like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:36):
I can't do this anymore.

Rachel Casey (00:23:37):
And before AA, I didn't know how many people out there

Rachel Casey (00:23:41):
were like me.

Rachel Casey (00:23:42):
So AA,

Rachel Casey (00:23:43):
my first meeting,

Rachel Casey (00:23:44):
was really an introduction to be like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:47):
there's a lot more like me than I think.

Rachel Casey (00:23:49):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:23:50):
Yeah, I think you just said it too, Kristen.

Colin Casey (00:23:53):
Like when you hear some of the things in AA, people doing the same thing you're doing.

Colin Casey (00:23:58):
Because when you're doing it, you don't think it's crazy.

Colin Casey (00:24:00):
But when you hear someone else say it, you're kind of like, that guy's fucking insane.

(00:24:06):
Right, right, right.

Colin Casey (00:24:08):
Why is he doing that?

Colin Casey (00:24:09):
And then it clicks, I'm doing that too.

Colin Casey (00:24:11):
And then you're like, I'm insane.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:15):
Or just that endless negotiation of, can I drive to Virginia?

Kristen Crocker (00:24:20):
What am I trying to... Again, when you talk about things, my husband has never thought that.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:26):
That, yeah.

Colin Casey (00:24:27):
You're doing historical sites in Virginia.

Colin Casey (00:24:29):
Exactly.

Colin Casey (00:24:30):
And I am grateful that the...

Kristen Crocker (00:24:35):
I'm just always,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:35):
I'm grateful every day that I've accepted that I'm a better person when I don't

Kristen Crocker (00:24:41):
drink alcohol.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:41):
I was not having the fun I thought I was having.

Kristen Crocker (00:24:44):
I think that was the other realization was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:46):
this is not making me like a cool mom or,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:50):
and so again,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:51):
back to my,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:52):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:24:52):
my

Kristen Crocker (00:24:53):
it's always awkward i'm always like my ex step kid my former well i'm still in

Kristen Crocker (00:24:58):
touch with we're still close so that's why it's just always awkward i'm like this

Kristen Crocker (00:25:01):
sounds so rude i'm but how do i describe this relationship anyway so my ex-stepson

Kristen Crocker (00:25:07):
did there were times he said like i thought i was really fun because i would stay

Kristen Crocker (00:25:12):
up late getting wasted and play monopoly

Kristen Crocker (00:25:15):
You know, I could play so much Monopoly.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:18):
I had so much patience for Monopoly.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:22):
You're like drunk counting the dollars.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:23):
How much money is it?

Kristen Crocker (00:25:25):
Yeah, yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:25):
It's money anyway.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:26):
Seriously.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:26):
And so there were a couple times that he said he didn't like that I drank that were

Kristen Crocker (00:25:30):
really painful.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:31):
But that, and I remember my thought being, my thought legitimately was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:25:37):
when are you going back to your mom's?

Kristen Crocker (00:25:40):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:41):
Like, you know, and when, like, like, God, that hurts so deep.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:46):
I'm not ready to, you know, like, and we actually had primary custody of him as well.

Kristen Crocker (00:25:50):
So it was not very often that he was gone.

Rachel Casey (00:25:52):
But I relate to that too,

Rachel Casey (00:25:53):
because my mom to help got me sober is before helping me get sober,

Rachel Casey (00:25:59):
suggested AA.

Rachel Casey (00:26:00):
I knew she was in AA.

Rachel Casey (00:26:01):
Oh, I didn't know that your mom.

Rachel Casey (00:26:02):
No, I didn't know that your mom.

Rachel Casey (00:26:03):
But a lot of the times when I would call and complain about something that happened

Rachel Casey (00:26:07):
a hundred percent of the time due to drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:26:09):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:26:10):
Her first question would be, were you drinking?

Rachel Casey (00:26:13):
and i would get mad i would be like you're not even understanding by i would

Rachel Casey (00:26:17):
totally shut off and be like how or if she was over in person i'm like if she asked

Rachel Casey (00:26:21):
me were you drinking i'm like when can she leave get her out she doesn't understand

Rachel Casey (00:26:27):
it's not about the drinking like she's just like she always points there so i mean

Kristen Crocker (00:26:31):
i totally understand but i also like i mean there was definitely something inside

Kristen Crocker (00:26:35):
me like

Kristen Crocker (00:26:37):
This isn't how you want to show up.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:39):
I don't want the thought to be, when are you leaving so that I can do what I really want to do.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:44):
There were a couple of times like that.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:46):
And so he actually stayed in the Pacific Northwest when we moved to North Carolina.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:50):
So then I did have free for all.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:51):
But that was another big thing about my kids, about my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:55):
So they were three and four-ish when I got sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:26:58):
I just remember them looking at me like they trust me so much.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:05):
They trust me implicitly.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:06):
They love me and I love them looking in their eyes.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:09):
I have to show up for them.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:10):
In AA, you can't get sober for anyone else.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:12):
There's a twist with how I got sober because I got sober so I could be the mom that

Kristen Crocker (00:27:16):
I want to be.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:17):
So it really was for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:18):
But it was because I was so moved by the amount of love I had for my kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:27:22):
And I thought, why am I okay treating myself like shit?

Kristen Crocker (00:27:25):
Why am I okay just like abusing myself?

Rachel Casey (00:27:28):
my body and i haven't drank the way i used to drink oh my god i would be like what

Rachel Casey (00:27:32):
are you doing yeah oh my gosh i know i would freak out yeah yeah and be like give

Rachel Casey (00:27:39):
it over here i 100 understand what you're saying i don't know if he's ever

Rachel Casey (00:27:44):
experienced it but like when i first was sober with evan who was also two and i

Rachel Casey (00:27:50):
just sat there and i was like

Rachel Casey (00:27:52):
i'm in charge are they sure they want to leave me here i'm a stay-at-home mom i'm

Rachel Casey (00:27:57):
like i'm are you sure yeah because i feel like this is probably like yeah you do or

Rachel Casey (00:28:04):
you're like oh my god like i have i am the parrot what is happening right now i get

Rachel Casey (00:28:11):
it i totally have felt that i'm so responsible

Kristen Crocker (00:28:14):
And the other thing that happened for me is that my ex-husband and I were starting to separate.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:20):
Like a year and a half after they were born, he was home.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:23):
So I didn't feel as bad about getting drunk.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:26):
It was like, okay, there's a house fire.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:28):
I guess he'll figure it out.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:29):
Hopefully he can wake me up.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:34):
That was a big turning point.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:35):
And I'm still really processing this and trying to...

Kristen Crocker (00:28:42):
My alcoholism, I would say, did not lead to the demise of my marriage.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:47):
We had a lot of fun together when we didn't have kids.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:51):
So once that real world, like, and, you know, now I live in a house in the suburbs.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:56):
We met in grad school.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:57):
We were writers.

Kristen Crocker (00:28:58):
Like,

Kristen Crocker (00:28:59):
this many children,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:02):
elementary school life was not necessarily like what was,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:05):
what we set out to do.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:06):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:07):
our circumstances changed in a way that,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:09):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:10):
obviously our fault,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:11):
we weren't necessarily together.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:13):
If that makes, you know what I mean?

Kristen Crocker (00:29:14):
So,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:14):
so that kind of like is,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:16):
is where we began to separate,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:18):
but it really did take a separating for me to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:21):
so he is,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:22):
I would say he is in a much healthier place now and I'm in a much healthier place

Kristen Crocker (00:29:26):
now.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:27):
Um, you know, we're, we're,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:30):
We're both showing up for our kids in a way that I don't think we were when we were

Kristen Crocker (00:29:36):
together,

Kristen Crocker (00:29:36):
if that makes sense.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:37):
I was not going to get sober not being single.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:39):
One thing I have to say about being single when I was getting sober was really nice

Kristen Crocker (00:29:43):
because I only had to worry about myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:29:45):
I know you guys were married when you got sober.

Rachel Casey (00:29:46):
In my head, I was single the first year.

Colin Casey (00:29:48):
Yeah, that's true.

Colin Casey (00:29:50):
on whether it's easier or harder because I've had my sponsor thinks it was harder

Colin Casey (00:29:55):
than like our method of just being married and I'm looking at other people in the

Colin Casey (00:30:01):
rooms who are single and have so much downtime I'm like how do you guys stay sober

Colin Casey (00:30:06):
I'm trying to raise a toddler and keep a job like I was so busy like my time my day

Rachel Casey (00:30:13):
was so he was busy on apartments.com don't let him fool you well yeah

Colin Casey (00:30:17):
Where are they going to find themselves?

Rachel Casey (00:30:19):
And then he was like, that's so much money.

Rachel Casey (00:30:21):
He's like, hmm.

Colin Casey (00:30:23):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:30:25):
Come back to reality.

Rachel Casey (00:30:26):
But really, the first year, I felt kind of guilty not being home.

Rachel Casey (00:30:30):
But at that point, my recovery...

Rachel Casey (00:30:35):
My recovery still does come first, but my recovery is more stable now.

Rachel Casey (00:30:39):
In the beginning, I don't even think I really thought about it.

Rachel Casey (00:30:42):
My sponsor was like, table the marriage.

Kristen Crocker (00:30:45):
Right, right, right.

Kristen Crocker (00:30:46):
No big decisions for a year, right?

Rachel Casey (00:30:48):
Since I wasn't fueled by alcohol, it's not like we were really getting in fights.

Rachel Casey (00:30:52):
I was doing...

Rachel Casey (00:30:54):
personal inventories and i was really seeing my side of the marriage which i was

Rachel Casey (00:30:59):
not upholding he was working full-time so i mean there really was uh in our first

Rachel Casey (00:31:05):
year of sobriety this i had i just kind of focused on me so like i was married but

Rachel Casey (00:31:12):
i don't think that we really worked on our marriage till like year two

Kristen Crocker (00:31:19):
Which makes a whole lot of sense.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:20):
You don't even really know what you're working with.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:22):
Like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:22):
I feel like when I first got sober,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:24):
like I didn't,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:24):
I was not really sure who I was walking through the world,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:27):
which was funny,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
because I'm like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:28):
here I am in my 30s and I'm just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:31):
that was another thing with parenting my kids where I'm trying to teach them Mr.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:34):
Rogers stuff about how to deal with their feelings.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:36):
What does mommy do when she's mad?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:38):
You know what I'm like?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:38):
What does mommy do when she's sad?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:40):
Oh, I drink.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:40):
Shit.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:41):
What does mommy do when she's bored?

Kristen Crocker (00:31:42):
Oh, fuck.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:46):
Any emotion that mommy feels.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:48):
Obviously, I'm not saying this out loud.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:50):
And then the other thing that was really helpful for me,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:53):
and I've written about this,

Kristen Crocker (00:31:54):
just the idea of the Zoom meetings is what really saved me.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:57):
So I could always just have a Zoom meeting in my ear.

Kristen Crocker (00:31:59):
And so I was just always listening to meetings.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:01):
I have a super, super strong foundation today.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:04):
In AA, like in what people say in the rooms.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:08):
I really, really, really, really fixated on the literature.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:11):
That's one thing that I do feel is not stressed enough in the rooms is to talk

Kristen Crocker (00:32:15):
about the literature.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:16):
But it is hard to read the big book, though.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:18):
And that was one of the things.

Kristen Crocker (00:32:19):
Thank you.

Rachel Casey (00:32:20):
Yes.

Rachel Casey (00:32:20):
Okay,

Rachel Casey (00:32:21):
so we have to get into this because we've talked about this through messaging on

Rachel Casey (00:32:24):
Substack.

Rachel Casey (00:32:25):
First, I will disclose we do not represent AA.

Rachel Casey (00:32:30):
Of course.

Rachel Casey (00:32:30):
We are in no way like every AA group is autonomous within themselves.

Rachel Casey (00:32:35):
It's self ran.

Rachel Casey (00:32:37):
We are just people that got sober.

Rachel Casey (00:32:41):
that have no power, position, representation.

Rachel Casey (00:32:44):
Like we are not any way affiliated.

Rachel Casey (00:32:47):
We are just people that got sober and have been in the rooms of AA.

Rachel Casey (00:32:51):
And this is like our observations or takes.

(00:32:54):
And I've read the book.

Rachel Casey (00:32:55):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:32:56):
So with saying that.

Rachel Casey (00:32:58):
Which is public.

Rachel Casey (00:32:58):
Like, I mean, come on.

Rachel Casey (00:33:00):
It's seriously.

Rachel Casey (00:33:01):
So when I posted at one month sober, I posted on social.

Rachel Casey (00:33:06):
And I do remember getting...

Rachel Casey (00:33:10):
a talk from other people in the group.

Rachel Casey (00:33:13):
I did not like even tag the group, mention the group.

Rachel Casey (00:33:16):
I think I did say something.

Rachel Casey (00:33:19):
Maybe I'll have to go look.

Rachel Casey (00:33:20):
But I was told, hey, we got to talk about tradition 11.

Rachel Casey (00:33:25):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:33:27):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:33:28):
So I've gotten a lot of shit about that.

Rachel Casey (00:33:32):
It didn't really make sense to me because I'm a millennial.

Rachel Casey (00:33:36):
I put a lot of my life on Facebook and it felt weird to not share because it was

Rachel Casey (00:33:44):
like my entire life.

Rachel Casey (00:33:47):
And the other,

Rachel Casey (00:33:49):
I guess I was also just feeling so good that I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:33:53):
I want other people to know how good I feel because we talk about this and it's

Rachel Casey (00:33:58):
gotten even more progressive to 2025.

Rachel Casey (00:34:01):
But in 2020,

Rachel Casey (00:34:03):
2021,

Rachel Casey (00:34:03):
right before I got sober,

Rachel Casey (00:34:04):
I don't think my Instagram reels were full of this positive change that you could

Rachel Casey (00:34:12):
feel this good without alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:34:14):
I kind of felt like,

Rachel Casey (00:34:16):
Like I found the life hack to life.

Rachel Casey (00:34:20):
And I felt almost wrong.

Rachel Casey (00:34:22):
I waited to share it.

Rachel Casey (00:34:23):
People said, oh, what if you relapse?

Rachel Casey (00:34:25):
Like that was the biggest fear thing that they put in front of me.

Rachel Casey (00:34:30):
Aren't you going to be so embarrassed?

Rachel Casey (00:34:31):
Like if you go put that you're sober and then someone sees you drinking in a bar.

Rachel Casey (00:34:35):
And I'm like, if I'm drinking in a bar, we got a lot bigger problems.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:39):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:40):
I'm always like, you know, it's the whole like you don't want.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:44):
So that's what I've heard a lot too.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:45):
Like, what if you relapse?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:46):
That'll make the program look bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:48):
That'll show that the program doesn't work.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:50):
And it's like, is it not part of the program to go back?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:54):
Aren't they supposed to welcome you with open arms?

Kristen Crocker (00:34:57):
That doesn't indicate a failure of the program.

Kristen Crocker (00:34:59):
You're just a human being.

Rachel Casey (00:35:02):
I heard the best quote on Jenny and I watched the Jenny and Georgia season three.

Rachel Casey (00:35:06):
I like to have it in the background binge watch.

Rachel Casey (00:35:08):
And the girl said the most profound thing.

Rachel Casey (00:35:11):
And I wrote it down.

Rachel Casey (00:35:12):
Relapse is a part of recovery.

Rachel Casey (00:35:14):
That's why we talk about it.

Rachel Casey (00:35:16):
And I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
Boom.

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
There you go.

Rachel Casey (00:35:19):
Relapse is a part of recovery.

Rachel Casey (00:35:23):
That does not mean you have to go relapse.

Kristen Crocker (00:35:25):
I always hear people say relapse is a part of my story,

Kristen Crocker (00:35:29):
but it doesn't have to be that kind of thing.

Kristen Crocker (00:35:32):
But I'm also always like, I don't recommend it.

Rachel Casey (00:35:35):
but relapse is a part of recovery not talking about it is how it happens yeah yeah

Rachel Casey (00:35:41):
and yeah or it also strengthens your own personal sobriety because relapse is a

Rachel Casey (00:35:47):
part of sobriety if you don't find it for yourself alcoholics are stubborn people

Rachel Casey (00:35:51):
with drinking problems from what i've seen from me personally very personally i'm

Rachel Casey (00:35:55):
very stubborn and had it not been for those

Rachel Casey (00:36:00):
sober October's dry January's the pregnancy the milk all of these things I did on

Rachel Casey (00:36:04):
my fourth step there probably would have been like let me go double check yeah in

Kristen Crocker (00:36:09):
the big book it says

Kristen Crocker (00:36:10):
go back you can easily diagnose yourself try to quit go to a bar and see if you can

Kristen Crocker (00:36:15):
stop drinking quickly you know you know how many times bill relapsed right right

Rachel Casey (00:36:19):
right yeah literally his last trip in the asylum like the dr silkworth he's like

Rachel Casey (00:36:25):
i've found the solution and he's at the loony bin yeah that's right so because he's

Rachel Casey (00:36:31):
like after he talked to ebby he's like i have this profound knowledge and he goes

Rachel Casey (00:36:36):
what did i do

Rachel Casey (00:36:38):
Well, I went and drank.

Rachel Casey (00:36:41):
He's like any normal person with alcoholism would.

Rachel Casey (00:36:44):
This is all in a story.

Rachel Casey (00:36:46):
There's a stigma of sharing because there is this tradition.

Rachel Casey (00:36:51):
11 is not rather than promotion.

Rachel Casey (00:36:54):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:36:55):
You're not supposed to promote yourself because why?

Rachel Casey (00:36:57):
It's ego.

Rachel Casey (00:36:59):
You're not supposed to represent the program.

Rachel Casey (00:37:02):
Yep.

Rachel Casey (00:37:02):
The relapse.

Rachel Casey (00:37:03):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:04):
But I'm always like,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:05):
do you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:05):
one of my big issues with even coming to AA was I thought I had that whole like,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:10):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:37:10):
it's a cult mentality.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:12):
And so I'm just like, if you're telling me not to talk about it, do you know how culty that is?

Kristen Crocker (00:37:17):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:19):
You're making yourself seem so much like that's making this program seem so much

Kristen Crocker (00:37:23):
more creepy than it is.

Kristen Crocker (00:37:24):
It's not.

Rachel Casey (00:37:28):
If you see anyone struggling,

Rachel Casey (00:37:29):
it is your job to carry the message and to help that person know you recovered and

Rachel Casey (00:37:35):
so that you pass on.

Rachel Casey (00:37:38):
the message so that's your step 12 which they say is the most important carrying

Rachel Casey (00:37:42):
the message right whenever and i am responsible and literally they tell me i'm

Rachel Casey (00:37:46):
responsible for carrying the message but also don't tell anyone right right well so

Kristen Crocker (00:37:51):
that that's where i get confused on on the contradiction between carrying the

Kristen Crocker (00:37:55):
message and keeping it a secret or whatever but so one of the one of the things i

Kristen Crocker (00:37:59):
do like that

Kristen Crocker (00:38:00):
So I guess to me that all kind of goes back to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:03):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:03):
you can be too much of a purist of anything kind of,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:05):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:05):
like with,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:06):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:06):
so I do think that people who get hung up on the 11th tradition,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:09):
I don't know what to tell you.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:10):
Like, I don't think that, I don't think that we have time.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:13):
Like women are dying.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:15):
Our livers are corroding.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:18):
I'm into,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:19):
I'm sorry,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:19):
Colin,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:20):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:20):
but,

Rachel Casey (00:38:20):
but,

Rachel Casey (00:38:21):
but I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:38:21):
when you're right,

Rachel Casey (00:38:22):
I mean,

Colin Casey (00:38:22):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:38:23):
his,

Rachel Casey (00:38:23):
his liver is such a woman's liver now.

Colin Casey (00:38:26):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:38:28):
I was raised by women.

Rachel Casey (00:38:29):
Just two lesbian moms.

Rachel Casey (00:38:30):
Don't let him fool you.

Colin Casey (00:38:31):
I somehow got their liver.

Colin Casey (00:38:32):
I was raised that way.

Colin Casey (00:38:33):
The nature.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:35):
The gentle soul.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:37):
So yeah, so I get really confused on how to uphold the 11th tradition while still leading.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:43):
But I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:43):
I will say,

Kristen Crocker (00:38:44):
I do think that you might be the only copy of the big book someone ever sees.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:48):
I like that phrasing a lot.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:49):
I like the idea that to lead with my behavior.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:52):
And I think that also goes back to like

Kristen Crocker (00:38:55):
okay, well, it's my job to help somebody if they reach out to me.

Kristen Crocker (00:38:58):
That doesn't mean I need to be going up to every single person.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:01):
Like, so you can do it.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:01):
You can do it wrong.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:05):
You can be,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:06):
it's not your job to,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:07):
it's not my job to pass judgment or diagnose someone else or,

Kristen Crocker (00:39:11):
you know.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:12):
And so that is where I've seen people struggling.

Kristen Crocker (00:39:15):
A lot of the things we've said, no normal person asks

Kristen Crocker (00:39:18):
do i have a drinking problem they just don't worry about it you know and and again

Kristen Crocker (00:39:22):
to to pivot the question to less am i an alcoholic and more like would i be better

Kristen Crocker (00:39:27):
served is this causing problems in my life you know would i be better served by not

Rachel Casey (00:39:31):
drinking and again that's your husband he would be like what uh i don't think so

Rachel Casey (00:39:36):
like i've never really thought about it and then you're like

Kristen Crocker (00:39:40):
you're excused please leave the class right it's like you're not selected it's just

Kristen Crocker (00:39:45):
not a big deal to him he drank he had a beer at one dinner and then his parents

Kristen Crocker (00:39:50):
came one time and i really wanted you know these are like my new in-laws and i

Kristen Crocker (00:39:54):
wanted to have wine for them so we had wine at the house and he was really freaked

Kristen Crocker (00:39:57):
out about it there's a boundary or crossing and you know i'm just like no my

Kristen Crocker (00:40:01):
spiritual condition is fine

Kristen Crocker (00:40:03):
It's all good.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:05):
You're just,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:06):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:06):
on the nanny cam,

Rachel Casey (00:40:07):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:07):
you're just constantly looking at the bottle,

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
and you're just,

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:10):
everywhere,

Rachel Casey (00:40:10):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:11):
all eyes,

Rachel Casey (00:40:12):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:12):
sneaking around the corner and,

Rachel Casey (00:40:13):
like,

Kristen Crocker (00:40:13):
looking at it.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:15):
I will say I did not want to keep it in my house overnight.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:18):
Or, you know, I just didn't want to.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:19):
Like, I just didn't want to.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:20):
So it did not bother me to have it serving.

Kristen Crocker (00:40:23):
It actually made me feel kind of...

Kristen Crocker (00:40:25):
empowered you know that i could have it at my house but i wouldn't want to keep it

Kristen Crocker (00:40:29):
here that's the only other time he's had like a glass of wine and that was actually

Kristen Crocker (00:40:33):
super funny because i got rid of all my wine all my like drinking pair stuff so i

Rachel Casey (00:40:39):
was like you didn't almost say drinking paraphernalia i was gonna say paraphernalia

Rachel Casey (00:40:46):
i was like please say that that's hilarious

Kristen Crocker (00:40:50):
It was really funny because,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
they're like,

Rachel Casey (00:40:52):
there's drinking paraphernalia in this place.

Rachel Casey (00:40:56):
They have a whole shrine to it.

Rachel Casey (00:40:58):
It's a whole cabinet.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:01):
It was pretty funny because I was trying to, again, be a nice hostess to my new in-laws.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:08):
And I'm just like, here's your wine.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:10):
I have coffee cups.

Rachel Casey (00:41:12):
It was great.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:16):
Here's the mismatched coffee cups.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:19):
Enjoy.

Kristen Crocker (00:41:21):
That's how I used to drink mine.

Rachel Casey (00:41:23):
So I don't know about you.

Rachel Casey (00:41:24):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:25):
I drink my wine out of a pint glass.

Rachel Casey (00:41:26):
It was not good.

Rachel Casey (00:41:28):
Oh yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:28):
No, same.

Rachel Casey (00:41:29):
I did not care.

Rachel Casey (00:41:30):
It was whatever glass was clean.

Rachel Casey (00:41:32):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:41:33):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:41:34):
Our rule.

Rachel Casey (00:41:35):
But to, to also go back on,

Rachel Casey (00:41:39):
The literature is hard to read.

Rachel Casey (00:41:42):
I got really upset and hurt at the rejection of the fifth grade reading level book.

Rachel Casey (00:41:48):
Like, that was suggested for AA to make it at... And people were so...

Rachel Casey (00:41:56):
rude about it i completely agree there are people that did not grow up in good

Rachel Casey (00:42:01):
homes and don't have good schools and were very poor because their parents spent

Rachel Casey (00:42:05):
all the money on alcohol and i'm not blaming the parents because i get it like i

Rachel Casey (00:42:10):
they were living in a disease and i've been in that disease and it's scary right

Rachel Casey (00:42:15):
but to say that you won't let a breakdown because it doesn't translate

Rachel Casey (00:42:20):
It's still scary.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:22):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:22):
That's exactly what I was just going to say.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:24):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:24):
So why are you putting more barriers for people to access Design for Living, this program?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:30):
Why make it hard?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:31):
And that's the same kind of thing going back to kind of like the curious,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:33):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:34):
where it's like,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:35):
well,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:35):
I had to sit there.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:36):
I had my sponsor told me to get a thesaurus and to sit down and look up or not a

Kristen Crocker (00:42:40):
dictionary and look up every word I didn't know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:43):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:43):
and it's just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:42:44):
Well, that sounds like a pain, like really difficult.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:47):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:42:49):
They had cell phones back then.

Rachel Casey (00:42:50):
It was easier.

Rachel Casey (00:42:52):
And for someone who is already struggling, isn't the goal to make it simple for them?

Kristen Crocker (00:42:58):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:42:58):
The whole chapter to the wives.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:02):
The first time I saw that, I was like, I can't do this.

Rachel Casey (00:43:05):
I didn't like that one.

Rachel Casey (00:43:07):
I didn't.

Rachel Casey (00:43:08):
I really don't like the to the wives.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:11):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:11):
That it presumes both that you have a wife or that there is a wife.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:15):
Again, back to that kind of like, what about husband, husband?

Kristen Crocker (00:43:18):
Or, you know, like whatever, non-binary, you know, all those kinds of things.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:21):
And that the woman is the one supporting the man who has the drinking problems.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:25):
That's another thing that I think in the big book makes it.

Kristen Crocker (00:43:28):
Well, women couldn't vote when the big book was made.

Rachel Casey (00:43:30):
I want that to sink in.

(00:43:32):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:43:33):
Women made 60 cents to every dollar a man made.

Rachel Casey (00:43:36):
That was 20 years after the big book was written.

Rachel Casey (00:43:40):
It was married men were, you know, married women.

Rachel Casey (00:43:43):
They were...

Rachel Casey (00:43:45):
not working they were childbearing which is why there's this chapter to the wives

Rachel Casey (00:43:49):
yes your husband's going to have to leave the home and help an alcoholic who's

Rachel Casey (00:43:54):
dying and you're going to have to say he's a better man for it didn't they also say

Colin Casey (00:43:59):
you have to bring home a drunk to sleep on the couch every now and then

Rachel Casey (00:44:03):
They say, I think so.

Colin Casey (00:44:04):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:44:05):
And that's in the beginning of, I think working with others, but yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:09):
So I liked the voice that you read it in though,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:10):
because like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:11):
I'm being serious because that is the language that like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:16):
that is the way that it reads.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:17):
Is that like, it's like this old timey.

Colin Casey (00:44:21):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:22):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:23):
I have a,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:23):
I have a post about on reading the big book and how,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:26):
how I like let go of my,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:28):
like how I could read it for the message as opposed to like being just,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:31):
because if you,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:33):
if I critique it with a 21st century feminist lens,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:36):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:36):
it is horrible.

Rachel Casey (00:44:38):
It's horrible.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:39):
Don't put a feminist lens on it.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:41):
And so that is really bad.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:43):
So that old tiny radio announcer voice kind of thing that is like,

Kristen Crocker (00:44:47):
how I had to read it.

Kristen Crocker (00:44:48):
So I actually like that you did that because that's...

Rachel Casey (00:44:52):
that's how I hear it well it's hard to not do it in that way and I think we all

Rachel Casey (00:44:58):
agree that it's like I'm not saying that this book did not save my life my I am

Rachel Casey (00:45:03):
deeply grateful I am indebted to the program that and he stumbled upon something

Rachel Casey (00:45:12):
that has helped just I mean beyond millions because there is the ripple effect that

Rachel Casey (00:45:16):
oh yeah

Rachel Casey (00:45:18):
us being sober also affects heaven there's that ripple so you think of how many and

Rachel Casey (00:45:22):
how many but the literature is very much stigmatized to the point where i think

Rachel Casey (00:45:31):
they're the ones carrying the stigma and that's a problem right right because now

Rachel Casey (00:45:38):
it's like you you've protected it now

Rachel Casey (00:45:42):
But we have to go if you're not evolving with the times.

Rachel Casey (00:45:48):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:45:48):
You're actually probably hurting the message and making it less inclusive.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:55):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:56):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:56):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:57):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:45:57):
And I just don't see the issue with having this is the it's not like we have to

Kristen Crocker (00:46:01):
that one has to go away forever.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:03):
You know, that's the one that was written then.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:05):
So now it's a piece of history to be read as as it's.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:09):
was written,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:10):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:10):
to like examine,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:12):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:13):
to,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:13):
you could do whatever you want with it,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:14):
but to,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:15):
to distill that message into a more,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:17):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:17):
just a,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:18):
yeah,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:19):
less offensive,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:19):
honestly,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
less.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:21):
But some people in AA would like lose their minds talking about revising,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:26):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:26):
changing,

Kristen Crocker (00:46:27):
um,

Rachel Casey (00:46:28):
anything you saw that happened because exactly you're right right the people and so

Rachel Casey (00:46:33):
because it says this is how men and women and there was there is a big and guess

Rachel Casey (00:46:40):
what people that identify in the lbg tq they also have alcoholism not all of them

Rachel Casey (00:46:46):
right sorry i was like not generally but

Kristen Crocker (00:46:49):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:46:49):
They did change it to people, though, right?

Kristen Crocker (00:46:51):
In the preamble.

Rachel Casey (00:46:51):
They changed it back.

Rachel Casey (00:46:52):
It got revoked.

Rachel Casey (00:46:54):
Well, I didn't know that.

Rachel Casey (00:46:55):
It got revoked.

Rachel Casey (00:46:56):
And that's what I'm saying because people threw such a hissy fit that it needs to be preserved.

Rachel Casey (00:47:02):
And you want to know where that really derives from if you're going in the history?

Rachel Casey (00:47:05):
Al-Anon.

Rachel Casey (00:47:07):
It was Bill's wife who started Al-Anon after he passed and was like, don't touch Al-Anon.

Rachel Casey (00:47:14):
anything leave it as is like the bible that was not what he wanted he said let it

Rachel Casey (00:47:21):
evolve when dr bob passed his last speech and his last talk with bill was don't

Rachel Casey (00:47:28):
this up don't ruin this don't become almighty and that's where like i think almost

Rachel Casey (00:47:35):
those some traditions were to keep bill in his head because they did want to put

Rachel Casey (00:47:39):
him on the cover of time magazine

Rachel Casey (00:47:42):
That's where his ego started growing.

Rachel Casey (00:47:45):
And that's where some of the traditions was made,

Rachel Casey (00:47:48):
where he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:47:50):
we don't want to have like one public because Bill even to himself said he didn't

Rachel Casey (00:47:55):
want to be the end all be all because he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:47:58):
God gave me this gift.

Rachel Casey (00:47:59):
My higher power gave me this gift.

Rachel Casey (00:48:01):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:48:02):
And I think we're like, yeah, attraction, not promotion.

Rachel Casey (00:48:07):
A better phrase would be attraction, not preaching, not name calling, not pointing.

Rachel Casey (00:48:13):
I would never point the finger at someone and say, you should go to AA.

Rachel Casey (00:48:20):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:20):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:21):
the other thing is,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:22):
so when I told some of my friends from grad school that I was in AA,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:25):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:26):
they were shocked.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:27):
You know, I mean, they were just not, not that I had a drinking problem.

Kristen Crocker (00:48:32):
but that I was attending what they thought,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:35):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:35):
was like a religious cult,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:37):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:37):
and I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:38):
it's not a religious cult,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:39):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:39):
like it's,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:40):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:41):
the people,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:42):
but again,

Kristen Crocker (00:48:44):
some groups operate more religious culty you know so so the the the group that i

Kristen Crocker (00:48:51):
found um you know that i really really like is a more progressive open-minded

Kristen Crocker (00:48:56):
well-educated group of women you know who are who are not that you have to be well

Kristen Crocker (00:48:59):
educated but what my point there is that like

Kristen Crocker (00:49:02):
It was not in the gutter.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:06):
You know, it was not those people.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:08):
And that like that, like blew my mind.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:09):
And so that's why I also want to be vocal about the fact that I am in that AA was

Kristen Crocker (00:49:15):
was a huge component of what got me sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:17):
It was not the only thing.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:19):
It was not, you know, the like taking the first step and doing all that.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:23):
But like, you know, that was not the only thing that did it for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:27):
I had to like I had like a bunch of other shit going on,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:29):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:30):
like like therapy and learning the neuroscience of it.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
And,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:34):
I was doing a lot of like energy work and energy healing and all those kinds of

Kristen Crocker (00:49:39):
things.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:40):
But it was it was a huge component.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:43):
And I just,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:44):
again,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:45):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:45):
when,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:46):
so I had a friend that I met at a writer's conference who was in AA and that,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:50):
again,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:51):
shocked me because I was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:49:53):
but you're so cool.

Kristen Crocker (00:49:53):
I was like, you're young and fun and like, you're not a psycho.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:00):
Not anymore.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:00):
Right.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:01):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:02):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:03):
And so,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:04):
so I just think that it's so unfortunate for AA itself to,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:09):
to put itself kind of in that category,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
to,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:11):
to kind of like,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:14):
not allow people to pick up the true message,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:17):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:17):
which is just that they're like,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:19):
there's freedom out there,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:21):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:21):
and so,

Kristen Crocker (00:50:22):
and taking accountability for your actions.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:24):
I mean, they're pretty basic principles.

Rachel Casey (00:50:27):
They are super basic, but honesty.

Rachel Casey (00:50:30):
What a concept.

Rachel Casey (00:50:32):
I think it's about also the variety of stories that,

Rachel Casey (00:50:37):
so when I think what the connection is to,

Rachel Casey (00:50:41):
and I know that this is how it is for Colin and he can speak to it on his own

Rachel Casey (00:50:45):
behalf.

Rachel Casey (00:50:46):
I know I don't have to speak for him, but finding a group.

Rachel Casey (00:50:49):
Finally.

Rachel Casey (00:50:51):
It's finding a group.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:53):
Sorry, we didn't want to hear your breastfeeding stories.

Kristen Crocker (00:50:54):
Sorry.

Rachel Casey (00:50:55):
You're like, I connect with these women.

Rachel Casey (00:50:58):
You're not like saying it's not because they're necessarily well educated.

Rachel Casey (00:51:01):
It's just that you have more commonalities beyond the alcoholism, too.

Rachel Casey (00:51:05):
And like Colin's favorite group,

Rachel Casey (00:51:08):
it's not even necessarily that it's like AA or rule strict base.

Rachel Casey (00:51:12):
It's like he just likes the people that are regulars there.

Rachel Casey (00:51:15):
And he goes in more for like a check in.

Rachel Casey (00:51:18):
And again,

Rachel Casey (00:51:19):
we also respect the fact that AA helped guide us,

Rachel Casey (00:51:22):
but it's really finding the,

Rachel Casey (00:51:25):
a good group is like people that have problems with alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:51:30):
but also are like kind of similar to what you're going through in that part of your

Rachel Casey (00:51:33):
life.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:34):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:34):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
I mean,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:35):
and the thing that I come back to honestly is that I tried every other,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:40):
I truly was like,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:43):
I will not AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:44):
I mean, that really was like my biggest fear.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:46):
My biggest fear in life was that like,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:49):
that I would have to go to,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:50):
that I would have to go to AA.

Kristen Crocker (00:51:52):
And,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:52):
and what I found,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:54):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:54):
when I,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:55):
and then again,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:56):
when I started going to meetings and,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:58):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:51:58):
people are there who are like 40 years sober,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:00):
I was just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:02):
Oh my God,

Kristen Crocker (00:52:02):
you're 40 years sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:03):
And you're just like barely hanging on by your fingernails coming to this meeting.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:06):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:07):
And it's just like, no, that was not the case.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:10):
They're there to help other people.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:11):
And like you said, or at least I enjoy the meetings now.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:16):
It's like I get to see my friends.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:17):
I get to hear how other people are dealing with life on life's terms.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:21):
I get to hear how other people are getting through dark shit sober.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:24):
And just how they...

Kristen Crocker (00:52:27):
they're getting through it sober and and so it's kind of interesting a couple weeks

Kristen Crocker (00:52:30):
ago well it must have been longer ago than that but a while ago i was at a meeting

Kristen Crocker (00:52:35):
um and everyone was probably at least a year sober um and so it was like the whole

Kristen Crocker (00:52:42):
meeting nobody even talked about a drink that was not the the conversation was not

Kristen Crocker (00:52:47):
about putting a drink down it was about maintaining emotional sobriety it was about

Kristen Crocker (00:52:53):
how are we staying sober through like

Kristen Crocker (00:52:55):
Life is still happening.

Kristen Crocker (00:52:57):
How are we staying through?

Kristen Crocker (00:52:58):
How are we staying sober through these things?

Kristen Crocker (00:53:00):
You know,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:00):
and so that was really,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:01):
really cool when we got to the end of the meeting and I texted my sponsor and I was

Kristen Crocker (00:53:04):
just like,

Kristen Crocker (00:53:05):
I don't think anyone has mentioned alcohol at this Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:53:10):
And those are such and I mean, we we realize that.

Rachel Casey (00:53:16):
It goes so much first deeper and beyond the alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:53:20):
So now my question to you is, or both of you even, is how do we go forward?

Rachel Casey (00:53:26):
How do we respect tradition 11,

Rachel Casey (00:53:29):
carry step 12,

Rachel Casey (00:53:31):
and balance it between being people that speak publicly or write publicly in an

Rachel Casey (00:53:38):
open space?

Rachel Casey (00:53:39):
How do we do this respectfully?

Kristen Crocker (00:53:40):
Do you want to go ahead?

Rachel Casey (00:53:41):
Yes.

Colin Casey (00:53:43):
Let me jump in and take this one.

Colin Casey (00:53:47):
Well,

Colin Casey (00:53:47):
I think the second part is,

Colin Casey (00:53:49):
is we live in such a culture now that we're in a kind of influencer base world now.

Colin Casey (00:53:58):
And it's so easier to spread message.

Colin Casey (00:54:00):
I mean, our son now has a YouTube channel of him playing Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:04):
And yeah, but it's like things like that.

Colin Casey (00:54:07):
We couldn't have done that when I was kids.

Colin Casey (00:54:10):
I mean, I made Lego movies just for me.

Colin Casey (00:54:13):
And it was stop motion.

Colin Casey (00:54:14):
But now Evan can actually like put it on the world and he's just playing with his Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:18):
It's so easier to share that information.

Rachel Casey (00:54:21):
I think a lot of this is- And I'm cool with other kids watching him play with Legos.

Colin Casey (00:54:25):
Yeah, well, and like you said, it's not preaching.

Colin Casey (00:54:27):
When you put it out here like this,

Colin Casey (00:54:29):
Right.

Colin Casey (00:54:30):
Someone's coming on to whatever podcast they use searching for it,

Colin Casey (00:54:35):
obviously,

Colin Casey (00:54:36):
if they're curious or have a problem with alcohol.

Colin Casey (00:54:39):
So that's why I don't think this is an issue because it's not like we're going to

Colin Casey (00:54:44):
Target selling CDs of our podcast,

Colin Casey (00:54:47):
like listen to this sober pot,

Colin Casey (00:54:49):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:54:49):
trying to find whoever looks like they need it,

Colin Casey (00:54:52):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:54:53):
giving them the message or going up to a homeless guy and say,

Colin Casey (00:54:55):
hey,

Colin Casey (00:54:55):
you have a phone.

Colin Casey (00:54:56):
Download my podcast.

Colin Casey (00:54:58):
Right.

Colin Casey (00:54:59):
You need to hear this.

Colin Casey (00:55:00):
And it's also the thing we've talked about.

Colin Casey (00:55:03):
If this was around, Bill definitely would have been on a podcast.

Colin Casey (00:55:08):
There's recordings of him speaking.

Colin Casey (00:55:10):
So if there's recordings of him speaking about alcohol,

Colin Casey (00:55:14):
then there would be...

Rachel Casey (00:55:16):
He left his money to funding,

Rachel Casey (00:55:17):
like finding...

Rachel Casey (00:55:19):
yeah there'd be a not a cure but something for alcohol like people that have a hard

Rachel Casey (00:55:24):
time getting to the meeting because they're so saturated in alcohol and i think the

Colin Casey (00:55:28):
other thing is you because a in their rule i mean you're seeing a lot of other

Colin Casey (00:55:33):
recovery programs start up and i'm sure they have some sort of a route to them but

Colin Casey (00:55:39):
like recovery elevator smart recovery

Rachel Casey (00:55:42):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:55:42):
you have to understand that AA was built off of stealing it from the,

Rachel Casey (00:55:47):
what should I call it?

Rachel Casey (00:55:48):
Because they're refusing.

Rachel Casey (00:55:50):
Yeah, so they stole from someone else.

Colin Casey (00:55:52):
But they're refusing to change or evolve with the times,

Colin Casey (00:55:56):
but you're having these other recovery programs,

Colin Casey (00:55:58):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:55:59):
be that change.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:00):
I guess in terms of like the 12th step and squaring the 11th tradition.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:06):
So the other thing I want to say about the sobriety groups that you're talking,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:09):
or some of the sobriety groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:11):
AA is the only group that is free.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:15):
I guess there are some other free groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:16):
but some of those other groups that are out there,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:19):
they are for profit.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:20):
And that is a big deal.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:22):
So that was another big deal to me in terms of what makes AA accessible is that

Kristen Crocker (00:56:27):
you don't have to contribute anything or whatever, you know, it's self-sustaining.

Kristen Crocker (00:56:31):
And so,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:32):
so that,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:32):
that really is a big,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:34):
a big difference to me,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:35):
as opposed to like,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:36):
kind of like you're saying,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:37):
like the programs that have taken the basis of AA and then again,

Kristen Crocker (00:56:41):
made it like a for-profit organization.

Rachel Casey (00:56:44):
deal like laura mccowan's the luckiest club 26 a month is that's a but i did spend

Rachel Casey (00:56:49):
more than a dollar a day drinking so that's kind of how you rationalize it right

Kristen Crocker (00:56:53):
right right right yeah but so actually that is one of the reasons that i actually

Kristen Crocker (00:56:56):
like that was that book was a huge um he's a huge a huge influence in my early

Kristen Crocker (00:57:01):
sobriety but but yeah i kind of like

Kristen Crocker (00:57:04):
the the amount similar to aa that her that the group is um and then the cost of it

Kristen Crocker (00:57:11):
but i like have a little bit of a hard time and hundreds of thousands of members

Rachel Casey (00:57:15):
and i'm like and yeah like holy they raised the price it was 13 a month and now

Kristen Crocker (00:57:21):
i've seen that over time that's so funny that is so funny that you say that because

Kristen Crocker (00:57:25):
when i joined it it was 14 a month exactly

Rachel Casey (00:57:29):
um and and yeah now it's now more people are joining and the price is going up well

Rachel Casey (00:57:33):
wouldn't you think that it's like it should go down yeah to be more inclusive and

Kristen Crocker (00:57:38):
yeah and you know what it's actually funny there is the other thing that that kind

Kristen Crocker (00:57:42):
of started to gross me out a little bit about that group was the level of hero

Kristen Crocker (00:57:46):
worship towards her and all the other hosts and it's actually on that note

Kristen Crocker (00:57:53):
So one of the things that I thought was really,

Kristen Crocker (00:57:55):
so what I've learned from AA meetings,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:00):
the no crosstalk rule.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:02):
So I feel like I have learned how to speak more from myself.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:05):
So kind of like back to that 12th step, 11th tradition.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:09):
I'm just sharing my story.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:10):
I'm just sharing what worked for me.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:12):
I'm not telling you what, I'm not shitting you.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:14):
I'm not telling you anything about yourself.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:19):
I'm talking about what happened to me.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:21):
you know, how what worked for me, and what I'm doing.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:26):
And so I think that that was the other thing that that happened within that group

Kristen Crocker (00:58:29):
is that in other groups,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:31):
it's not even right.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:33):
I'm sorry.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:33):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:34):
Exactly.

Kristen Crocker (00:58:35):
Just that it was a little bit like everybody was waiting for the host to say,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:40):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:41):
to give them accolades or,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
and so that,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:43):
that is one thing that I think is pretty,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:46):
pretty funny in AA meetings where somebody will say something like extremely

Kristen Crocker (00:58:51):
profound or extremely impactful,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:55):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:55):
and then the,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:56):
if the chair is like,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:58):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:58):
pretty,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:59):
uh,

Kristen Crocker (00:58:59):
um,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:01):
a purist,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:01):
you know,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:02):
they're just kind of like next,

Kristen Crocker (00:59:04):
sorry to hear about your next.

Rachel Casey (00:59:10):
The sweet spot is in the world of creating in a new digital age,

Rachel Casey (00:59:17):
we're respecting the traditions and carrying the message by not

Rachel Casey (00:59:24):
being like not cross-talking, like making sure that we're speaking from the eye perspective.

Rachel Casey (00:59:30):
I don't know if we all need a disclaimer,

Rachel Casey (00:59:33):
but I think that that's a really good start is saying like,

Rachel Casey (00:59:36):
if you start going past the point of like what cross-talk would be,

Rachel Casey (00:59:41):
maybe that's when we start saying like,

Rachel Casey (00:59:42):
we don't want to have a...

Rachel Casey (00:59:45):
When someone even tells me they listen to the podcast, I get so cringe.

Rachel Casey (00:59:48):
Like, I'm like, oh, my God, please don't.

Rachel Casey (00:59:50):
Like, I'm just trying to talk about what my story is or talk.

Rachel Casey (00:59:52):
I hope they enjoyed the person we're interviewing.

Colin Casey (00:59:54):
What's about what worked for us?

Colin Casey (00:59:56):
And that's really.

Rachel Casey (00:59:57):
And just laughing about the stupid stuff like me testing my breast milk like a maniac.

Rachel Casey (01:00:03):
Like,

Rachel Casey (01:00:04):
and I can I don't talk about that unless I have someone where I'm like,

Rachel Casey (01:00:09):
they shared something pretty similar to something I've done.

Rachel Casey (01:00:11):
And

Rachel Casey (01:00:13):
There's going to be a mom that hears it, and she's going to be like, I'm not alone.

Rachel Casey (01:00:18):
And that's, like, the only goal of the podcast.

Rachel Casey (01:00:20):
That is the goal of someone hears something out of the 60 minutes of banter,

Rachel Casey (01:00:26):
and they say,

Rachel Casey (01:00:27):
I'm not alone,

Rachel Casey (01:00:28):
and maybe seeds planted.

Rachel Casey (01:00:29):
Maybe not.

Rachel Casey (01:00:30):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (01:00:30):
I don't care.

Rachel Casey (01:00:32):
I'm not preaching.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:32):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:34):
And the other thing, I mean, having...

Kristen Crocker (01:00:36):
drank while breastfeeding two, well, three babies, you know, two, the twins and the baby.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:42):
And then having been sober this time, I mean, my self-esteem, so much better.

Kristen Crocker (01:00:48):
So I did not, the Kristen who was,

Kristen Crocker (01:00:52):
drinking a 15% stout to like boost her breast milk did not love herself the way

Kristen Crocker (01:00:58):
that I like,

Kristen Crocker (01:00:59):
that I do actually like the person who I am most of the time.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:03):
And that's a beautiful,

Rachel Casey (01:01:04):
and I know for time constraint,

Rachel Casey (01:01:06):
like,

Kristen Crocker (01:01:06):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (01:01:07):
it's like,

Rachel Casey (01:01:08):
we,

Rachel Casey (01:01:08):
we just learned that we like who we are without the alcohol.

Rachel Casey (01:01:12):
So it even becomes like life really isn't much about the alcohol,

Rachel Casey (01:01:15):
but we laugh at how much alcohol ran our lives and,

Rachel Casey (01:01:20):
before we like realize the hack of not drinking it yeah so and if you relate to

Rachel Casey (01:01:25):
that awesome if you don't that's there's there's probably another podcast that's

Rachel Casey (01:01:29):
more relatable for you or another news right exactly exactly and so and so that's

Kristen Crocker (01:01:33):
what i just think you know like aa was a huge component of what got me sober and so

Kristen Crocker (01:01:38):
i just want like and the concept of like that whole normalizing alcoholism and um

Kristen Crocker (01:01:45):
all that kind of stuff

Rachel Casey (01:01:46):
So  right  now  is Substack  your  main  point  of  contact  or  do  you  have  a  website?

Rachel Casey (01:01:52):
I see you have a road mic.

Rachel Casey (01:01:53):
Like, I mean, you have, you have the same mic as us.

Rachel Casey (01:01:55):
So are you about to start a podcast maybe?

Kristen Crocker (01:01:57):
So my husband has a podcast.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:58):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:59):
So yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:01:59):
So he has, um, he has like kind of all the, that's why he was here to my tech support.

Rachel Casey (01:02:04):
yeah well this was i was like you should maybe you could think about it i don't

Kristen Crocker (01:02:09):
know i know so i do i do want to start a podcast so yeah so so currently i have um

Kristen Crocker (01:02:13):
my Substack i'm again so you know my formal education my back my formal background

Kristen Crocker (01:02:18):
is is in creative writing so that i am working on a memoir so i have i'm kind of

Kristen Crocker (01:02:23):
it's shifting between a lot so much of it has to do with with motherhood and with

Kristen Crocker (01:02:27):
parenting and um

Kristen Crocker (01:02:29):
Again, I'm kind of back and forth on that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:32):
How much do I want to normalize alcoholism?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:34):
Do I like the word alcoholism?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:35):
But anyway, just just kind of like that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:38):
Yeah, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:39):
I relate to that.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:40):
Yeah, I relate to it.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:41):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:42):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:42):
So so, you know, just kind of.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:43):
And so that is my goal is to help help other people.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:47):
I mean, people, but specifically moms who are just like, oh, that can't be me.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:51):
Cause like I have a husband and I have a house and there's like, sure.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:55):
I drink a bottle of wine every day, but who wouldn't, you know?

Kristen Crocker (01:02:57):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:58):
Well, okay.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:58):
You're, you're only mortal.

Kristen Crocker (01:02:59):
Okay.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:00):
So like your body's going to shut down.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:01):
No.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:03):
And, and again, the way that showing up for my kids is,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:07):
completely is the most beautiful thing that I've ever done for myself.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:11):
It is the greatest gift I've ever given myself in the world,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:14):
even when I'm reading them a bedtime story and I'm just like not wanting to finish

Kristen Crocker (01:03:19):
the story.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:21):
At least I know that it's because it's because I'm sick of them and not because I'm

Kristen Crocker (01:03:25):
trying to go downstairs and get a glass of wine.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:27):
hundred percent when i used to be when i used to read a bedtime story um and i

Kristen Crocker (01:03:32):
would be you know trying to sneak away to drink more and i'd be skipping pages i'm

Kristen Crocker (01:03:36):
like do they notice do they notice

Kristen Crocker (01:03:40):
Now when I skip pages, it's because I just don't, I'm just done for the day.

Rachel Casey (01:03:44):
There's a new, or there's a new episode out.

Rachel Casey (01:03:46):
Like I gotta go.

Rachel Casey (01:03:47):
Come on guys.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:49):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:50):
So the substack.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:51):
Yeah.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:51):
So my, my husband, so he has a podcast called, we're not supposed to talk about this.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:55):
And so he, it's about.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:57):
About things we're not supposed to talk about.

Kristen Crocker (01:03:58):
Um,

Kristen Crocker (01:03:59):
Politics, religion, sex, money, you know, all those kinds of things.

Rachel Casey (01:04:01):
I was like, the things on my dad said, do not talk about sex, religion, money at a bar.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:05):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:07):
And so he and I are moving towards hosting that together as well.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:11):
But I probably do want to do a podcast at some point as well.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:16):
But  yeah, Substack  is  the  main  place  to  find  me  right  now.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:18):
I have a Facebook group, but it's not very big right now.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:23):
So I mostly just share my Substack.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:24):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:04:27):
But it's been a pleasure to talk with you.

Colin Casey (01:04:29):
And thank you.

Rachel Casey (01:04:30):
Thank you so much.

Rachel Casey (01:04:32):
I really appreciate it.

Colin Casey (01:04:33):
And hanging in with us, too.

Rachel Casey (01:04:35):
I appreciate it.

Rachel Casey (01:04:36):
Talk back.

Rachel Casey (01:04:37):
And we'll talk about all the things we're not supposed to talk about.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:41):
Well, that would be awesome.

Rachel Casey (01:04:43):
So thank you again.

Rachel Casey (01:04:45):
Thank you so much.

Kristen Crocker (01:04:46):
I really, really enjoyed this.

Rachel Casey (01:04:47):
Thank you for listening to Sober Banter.