but we have to control what we can control
and what we can control is
how we show up in relationship
can our son see that we're emotional
can our son see that we're vulnerable
can our son see that we're scared
that we're mad that we're happy
us guys aren't very good at expressing happiness
unless our sports team is winning
what about
what about all the other times when we're having happy
but we're too cool to to look out of control and happy
welcome back to raising men
I'm joined today by somebody whose work has shaped
countless fathers and families
and conversations about modern masculinity
Todd Adams
Todd is the executive director of Men Living and co
host of the Zen Parenting Radio podcast
and a long time advocate for what he calls
conscious masculinity Todd
thanks so much for joining
thank you Sean
excited to be here
so let's talk about conscious masculinity
why it is what
what is it and why does it matter
uh how do I start
um so
I heard a Ted talk a while back
by a guy named Tony Porter
he runs an organization on the east coast
actually all over the place
and uh
it's about healthy masculinity
and he presented a framework to me
that I'd never heard before
but he did not come up with it
but um
the first I heard
of it was on his TikTok and he talked about the man box
OK
so there are plenty of examples out there in society of
um
what masculinity means and I think everybody
has their own interpretation of that for me
masculinity means that we are sometimes stoic
and sometimes strong and sometimes determined
and sometimes singularly focused
and there's other times when we are soft
and gentle and nurturing
I think when we showed up as boys
Sean you and I both identify as men
when we showed up we were actually more emotional
than our female counterparts
they've literally done studies scientifically
boys are actually more emotionally expressive
than young women and then
you know as toddlers and young adolescents
but then society grabs a hold of us and says no
this is the one way to be a man
and being being a man means you gotta be tough
you gotta be athletic as you get older
you gotta make a lot of money
you gotta have a lot of sexual partners
um I am based on how big my house is
and I call that like that's a version of the man box
the man box is um
there's one narrow lens of what it means to be a man
and that means to be tough
to be impenetrable think about
you know the movies and pop culture that we see
of what the typical prototypical man is
yeah whether it's superheroes or whatever
it's just a bunch of guys that are just uh
super strong and super determined and show no weakness
and go alone often huh
go it alone boys don't cry
all of the above so
um your question was what's conscious masculinity
it's it's a
a more expansive version of what it means to be a man
and um
what I see on TV and from our leadership
whether it's corporate or political um
there's there's not a whole lot of other
ways to be in this life
other than to be stoic and to be in invulnerable
so that's my two cents yeah
no I think that is
you know the
the the metaphor that I've used to describe
that sort of thing is
you know we've sort of traditionally when I grew up
masculinity was all about
imagine you're a castle and it was
it's all about how thick your walls are yeah
and and
but in reality
I think that masculinity is about how much
they can enclose
how much they can protect and how much they can provide
how much they can how how
how inclusive the walls are
meaning how big of a village can you have in there
yeah and it's funny yeah
go ahead as
as you say that I didn't thought
I didn't think I was gonna jump in the deep end here
but let me go ahead and do that anyway
so there's a framework out there called the 4
male archetypes and
in the four male archetypes there's um
it's a Carl Jung um
concept he had a whole bunch of different archetypes
but there was a book out there called king warrior
magician lover
and the one you're talking about is
the castle and the kingdom
and that is a very
important part of what it means to be a man
which is to provide right
like as men
we want to be able to provide not just money
but provide
with our emotional bandwidth and things like that
so that's one of the four male archetypes
the king then we got the warrior
which is the one I talked about
the impenetrable the
the stoic one the strong
but and then we got the magician
which is the one who thinks
so a king sees and blesses um
a warrior gets stuff done
a magician thinks
but then we forget about that fourth architect
which is the lover and the lover feels
the lover allows himself to be hurt
the lover exposes himself the
the lover will um
express his um gratitude
his emotion
his love for all the different people in his life
and we just don't hear about that one very often
so I'm just trying to bring a little bit more balance
cause there's times when I am in my warrior
but there's this whole other part of who I am
that isn't allowed to be brought up to the surface
because society doesn't think that that
belongs and I'm just trying to change that narrative
yeah I think that's a that's really important work
and and so tell me
you know specifically for fathers raising boys today
what how
what do you think that awareness actually looks like
day to day how do you how do you make that a practice
um it's a great question
and let me just kind of expand it to just like
being a parent
cause I've been doing a podcast with my wife
for 15 years and um
at at
in my journey of talking to a bunch of groups
and what it means to be a good parent
and how do we become a good parent
a lot of questions get asked of my wife and I
and they'll be like well
tell me what to say when my kid is whatever
you know you just found out your
your teenage boy is watching porn or um
what do I say when they get a d on a grade or whatever
and what we say to our kids is a lot less important
than I ever thought it was
when I showed up as a parent
I have three daughters 22
20 and 18
and I thought what I said to them was really important
it's not as important as I thought it was
no what it is for me and this is a very uh
non scientific concept one that I came up with
uh it may or
may not land with your audience
but it's 60 30 10 so it's 100% 60% of his modeling
forget about everything else
if you want your son to be a kind person
be a kind person yeah
if you want your son to read books
read books if you want your son
to not use weed and not to get drunk
then don't use weed and don't get drunk
that is where I spend the majority of my time parenting
cause I I
I'll let out a secret
you're teaching your kid what
whether you know it or not
you're teaching them every single day
you want them to have a good relationship
with their partner then
figure out how to navigate conflict in a healthy way
with your life partner that's the best way to do it
so that's 60% of my energy
thirty percent of my energy is
in what way am I spending time with my kid
how what energy am I setting a boundary
am I setting a boundary to be a jerk
or am I setting a boundary saying hey
I understand why you're interested in
seeing naked girls on your
on your iPad but here's the deal guy
there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff on that
that is just simply not true
and there's a lot of stuff on that that is um
it's actually toxic about
and it's demeaning towards human beings
especially the women in those videos so it's
not what you say it's how you say
and then the last 10% is the words you're actually
giving to them so that's my 60
30 10 model
I think that's absolutely right
I and I uh
the modeling stuff is so important
you just need to be the man you want your son to be
yeah and that
that handles the lion share of it
yeah and I think and
and it's the fountainhead of it all too it
it everything else flows from that
because
as you're being the man you want your son to be
that's going to result
in establishing appropriate boundaries
in the appropriate way
and how to say things in a way that
that is that is fruitful
and it will allow you to select that last 10%
also select the appropriate words and and
and say things the right way as well and
and so it really just starts I
I find you know
we do a lot on on this podcast
I do a lot of talking with people about
you know I
ultimately our goal is to raise excellent men right
and there's the the
the No. 1 rule associated with that
is to be an excellent man
yeah and it's tricky because we
uh if we're lucky
we had a father growing up and their
their dad brought them up in this world
I think that we as human beings
the goal is for us to evolve a little bit
so hopefully
I'm a slightly better dad than my dad was to me
that's right and hopefully
my dad is a slightly better dad than his grand
than his dad was to him yep
and for me it's like just recognizing my own baggage
so like growing up
it's hard being a human being on this planet
and I acquired a bunch of baggage growing up
from my mom from my dad
from society and one thing that I wanna do is
investigate my own reactivity
investigate my own baggage
investigate all these
things that brought me to be who I am
and not to pass the bad stuff down
pass the good stuff down to our kids
but you know
a lot of dads will say to me
well when I was
when I was their age
I wasn't doing this and I turned out just fine
and my question is always like
are we sure we turned out as fine as we think we did
because there's always an opportunity for me to grow
as a husband to grow as a father
and I think too often
there's a lot of moms and dads out there that are just
um taking the
their own things that they haven't quite resolved
and passing it down to their kids
without looking in the mirror
and looking at themselves
and I know that can come out sounding harsh
but if we're not doing our own personal growth work
then how can we possibly ask our kids to do that
moreover I think that in the past
things changed a lot more slowly
and so I think that my father had a different he
he was in a different world than his father was in
but it wasn't that much different
80% was the same but my son is growing up into a world
that is so radically different
from the one that I grew up in
that the lessons are just not the same
my paradigms are absolutely not the same
and it is and I the part of the
my motivation for even having these conversations
is in recognizing that I
I don't know what to do yeah
how old is your son my son is 6 okay yeah
so you're catching him nice and early
but yeah I mean
to your point Sean
I totally agree
like I'm holding up my phone right now to the camera
right that's a game changer in
in probably in in the worst way
now there's some
some good parts about it too
I mean it's a tool and tools can be good and bad
it's good and bad and um
a lot of parents come to me and they're like
oh my kid is addicted to their iPad
and kid is addicted to their phone
now I will say
what did I do this morning
I woke up and I went to work
and I've been in front of my screen all
day that's right
I'm talking to you in front of my screen
I'm about to do a podcast in front of my wife
in front of my screen
so it's really not about the screens
it's how am I engaging with this technology
and you can say well
this is my job and I'm productive
but just own the fact that I I
I can't own the fact for anybody else
I am also addicted to my screen
sometimes it's in my YouTube algorithm
sometimes because I work too much
but I am addicted to my screen
and if we as parents
can look at that first
before we start telling our kids
how to manage their own addiction to the technology
and it's a whole to your point Sean
it's a completely different world
and we cannot experience the world the way our kids do
because
it's completely different than when we were growing up
it goes back to the modeling right
you can't sit there and stare at your phone
telling your child not to get off his iPad
yeah and expect that they're gonna actually do it
in fact every time you say that
you're losing credibility with them
and they know it and they know it
they feel it they know it
they're smarter than we give them credit for
you know I I like to say that they're
they're it's like they're prisoners
you like in a jail and we're the we're the we're the
jailers
and the prisoners have all the time in the world
yeah to figure out how to escape
and how to watch and see the patterns
and all of that stuff and I don't have any time at all
I wake up and I go to work and I
I have to do all that stuff
and my son just sits there and he gets to watch
and he gets to figure out how to
how to do what he's gonna do
no doubt you know I I you know a lot of
moving on that theme many
dads didn't grow up with emotionally available
male role models most of us yeah
and and yet
somehow we have to figure out how to lead emotionally
while still learning that ourselves
and how do we do that
it's a great question actually
that's I know
we're gonna talk a little bit about the organization
that I co founded
and I'm an executive director of um
it's called Men Living and
and I'll take say more about it
but basically it's a
it's a virtual and in person space for guys to connect
authentically and vulnerably
that's in essence what it is that we're trying to do
and it came from a weekend I had with my buddies
so I was in my early 30s
and I went on a golf weekend with my buddies
and we did all the things that guys do
on golf weekends we gambled we drank we golfed
I came home exhausted I get home my wife is like
how was the weekend I said it's great
she said how are the guys
I said they're great she's like
what's going on with them
I'm like they're great
she's like no
no no
what's happening in their lives
and I'm like they're great
she's like Todd
am I speaking a different language
what are they what's and Sean
I shit you not I spent 72 hours with these guys
who I went to college with
I've known over 10 years and I didn't have a single
moment of authentic connection with any of them
I could tell you who they drafted
on their fantasy football team yeah
I could tell you if they're slicing the ball
or if they're hooking the ball
but I couldn't tell you if they're having a hard time
in their relationship with their significant other
I couldn't tell you if they're having a hard time with
their their children as in their parenting journey
and then I just had
I haven't had many light bulb moments in my life
but I'm like holy shit
if I spend the rest of my life
with these types of relationships
with other men where it's just shallow
and sports and work and weather
and don't get me wrong I love sports
I watched the Bears game yesterday
I I love um all these things that I used to love
but I also know that if this is all that it is
then it's not gonna work for me
because my wife will go out for three hours
and connect deeply with her girlfriends
and know everything
and I had 72 hours and I got nothing done
so your question is how do we do it
um first of all
you already know how to do it
we all know how to do it we used to be experts at this
when we were 2 and 3 and 4 years old
when we got mad we banged on the ground
when we got sad we cried our eyes out um
when we got celebratory when we felt joy
we celebrated we did all these things that uh
we did so we know how to do it
we just gotta like get out of our own way
we gotta remove all these barriers
that we have put in front of us
and our feelings and our heart center
so how do you do that you gotta name your feelings
most guys don't even know how to name their feelings
sure are you feeling mad
hey how you feeling Jason
um uh
I'm mad oh
you're mad
is that a thought or is that a feeling
well what do you mean
what's the difference well
thought is just some concept in your brain
but sometimes when we're mad
we feel anger in our hands
yeah or we feel sadness in our throat
or sometimes it comes out through
water of our eyes
and we really want to start tuning into our body
experience um
you know let's jump over to schooling for a second
most parents spend most of their time um
with the uh
with how smart their kids are yeah
and we spend very little time with their emotions
especially our young men um
so there's IQ which I spend very little
if any time with my daughters
regarding how smart they are at their school
that's their journey
I'm not gonna mess with their journey of schooling
but we do invest a lot of our resources
in how they're doing emotionally
and how they can express it in a way
and can they derive the wisdom and the value
of these feelings in their body
and we as guys just shut that shit down way too early
yeah I um
I'm blessed I guess with
with a a very deeply feeling kid in my boy yes he
man he feels things deeply if
if somebody else is upset in the room
he can feel their
yeah there's sadness
yeah and he'll begin to cry yeah
and in a lot of ways
that can come off as maladaptive at his age
and there's a reflex that I have
certainly having grown up the way that I grew up
which by the way my childhood was freaking awesome yeah
um but I wanna shut it down
I I I
I wanna I wanna make him laugh
I wanna distract him and one time I
I was doing that and I'm good at that
I deal with stress and
and anger and all that stuff with humor
and I deflect with humor a lot
and so I'm
I've got I've got 50 years of of skill in that yeah
I call it conditioning and I don't know you
I just met you for the first time
um and first of all
I want to own this I do this too
and and I usually don't deflect with humor
but when I'm feeling something'cause my guess is
when your son is crying in an empathetic way
I'm guessing
there's part of you that gets a little worried
you should probably get a little uncomfortable
so yeah and I
I think I'm empathetic too
I think I feel his pain and I want the pain to go away
right
and the pain is sometimes was some of our best teachers
and my invitation to my clients and other guys
and men living or whatever
it's feel the feelings
because a lot of guys will bypass their emotions
and not feel it
or invite their 6 year old son not to feel it instead
like I'm so impressed
how you're really feeling all your feelings right now
and let that come all the way through
now there's a balance too
because your son can lose himself
to other people's feelings also
that's not healthy either
now he's 6 years old and
he's gonna have to navigate that
of when to put up that boundary
so that he can keep himself safe and not
not be um
conditioned by the other
who happens to be feeling something
but in my judgment most of us guys are so shut off
so shut down that we need to kind of
come more towards where your son is right now
you definitely need to air on the other side of it
that's exactly right yeah
I um
with with respect to the men living thing
it
you know
there used to be institutions in our culture that
kind of took care of this a little bit
we had churches we went to work in person right
we
there was I don't know
clubs and
even a neighborhood bar that you might go to
and hang out with the guys
or you'd have bowling leagues or those sorts of things
and those institutions are getting rooted
yeah and what that means in my view is that it used
you used to kind of by default
have the outlets that you needed to have
and that's not the case anymore
you now have to
you now have to be a lot more intentional
about how you're gonna get those things
now
the positive aspect of that the benefit of that is you
you get to be more intentional
which means you can design
exactly the experience you want
as opposed to just OK
I'm gonna go to
bowling league on Wednesdays and you know
maybe we'll cry over some beers or something like that
you can actually
create the environment that you really want
the downside is you have to do that
otherwise you won't have the environment
and you won't connect emotionally
and I think that's partly what we're seeing
as there's kind of a masculinity crisis in our culture
is that men
we don't
we don't really do anything like that for ourselves
that's actually what women do uniquely well yeah
and I mean I
I have friends whose
whose wives manage their personal calendars
and so that happens well
your wife isn't gonna isn't gonna do that for you
no and and some do and it's kind of sad
that's actually I can't speak for your experience Shawn
but most of my experiences with other guys is
they kind of lose a lot of their friends
and they morph
themselves into the friendships of their wives
and their significant others yeah
you're you're friends with the husbands
of your wife's friends right
yeah and and to your point
you need to be intentional on how to do that and uh
you sometimes you need to be creative
I think it used to be easier
I think you're right
the churches and the bowling leagues
when I started this organization
the only reason I started it
is because I googled men's groups
and all of them came up attached to a church
now I grew up Roman Catholic
I don't practice that religion anymore
but I wanted this to be outside of any type of ideology
so at Men Living we got Democrats
Republicans Jews
Muslims Christians
agnostics atheists like I
the only thing I wanted us to have in common is
we're both we're all men
but I don't care if you're a Christian or an atheist
or agnostic or anything like that
so these institutions used to be put in place
it was kind of more common and anybody who shows up
you know there's 4 billion men on this planet
and there is plenty of men's organizations
that have plenty of capacity
and now that we have this ability
this technology in front of us
to be able to connect on zoom or in person uh
but you need to go look for it a little bit
whereas back in the old days your buddy be like
hey you wanna join a bowling league
and you would just do that
nowadays you don't have a buddy
who's asking you to join a bowling league
you have to Google men's groups and go find one
that's right um
but it doesn't mean we can't do it
but it requires a little bit of effort
and if we're as strong and as tough
and as creative as we think we are as men
then we should be able to do this
and before we press record today
I wanna talk a little bit about the
difference between the
our female counterparts and all that
I judge that our female counterparts
the moms have had to adapt to
what I would consider patriarchal culture
doesn't mean men are bad it just means that
we live in a system where most of the power
resides in people who identify as men
and our
our female counterparts have adapted to that system
and now it's our turn as guys to adapt
because there are certain things
us boys are getting left behind
we are not on girls are more
there's more girls in college now
boys have more behavioral issues in grade school
like there's all this data to show that
it's hard to be a man because it is
because our factory jobs are going away
jobs in the field are going away
and there's all these openings of pink jobs
you know teaching
social worker nursing and all this other stuff right
and it's our turn to adapt
and instead of us adapting collectively
we're just saying oh
isn't it hard being a guy
like yeah
it's hard being a guy and it's also hard being a girl
so let's figure out how to be a guy in this world
and maybe it means that you might be a social worker
instead of a factory worker
but we have the capacity to do it
so going down a rabbit hole here
but just want to throw that out there
yeah I
I think that's exactly right
and
you know
there's nothing wrong with that
and the people who resist change are hardly ever
hardly ever have great lives
right you know
embracing change is the way forward
and that doesn't mean that all change is great
and that doesn't mean that you can't
influence it in a way that
it helps you yeah
but you know
by by sticking your head in the sand
and wishing things were different
you're not gonna get anywhere yeah
and by the way you're not gonna teach your kids that
that how to how to react in the world
unless
what you're hoping to do is provide a counter example
that's exactly where I was gonna go
as far as how do we teach our sons to do this
so if you're in a traditional household
where it's abandoned a woman um
is the is your son and your daughter seeing
you know the husband wash the dishes
is the husband maybe it's a stay at home dad
yeah like
are we teaching our kids that being a man
doesn't mean it's just one track
it could be all these different things
and um
in in a lot of cases out there
um there's this term that we use on the podcast
called the emotional labor
I don't know if you're familiar with it
but it's the labor that it takes
the emotional labor it takes to run a household
yeah and my wife is the CEO of our household
whether it's right or wrong
I have the same deal that's right
and then I used to say stupid stuff like
you know what honey
just tell me what to do and I'll do it
and the problem with that is my wife doesn't want
we already have three children
yeah now she yeah
the monkey's on her back still
I'm like okay
well just treat me like your fourth child
and tell me what to do and she's like no
I want you to meet me where I am
I want you to initiate
the scheduling of the dentist appointments
or the doctor appointments
or hold space for your daughter
who just had a bad day at school
instead of be like oh
I'm not that good at feeling stuff
so I'll just let mom do it
so that's the emotional labor part of it
and there's too many of us guys that are being like oh
I'm just not that's just not my way
I'm just not good at that
but if they want to talk about
you know money and finance and all that
I'll help but if it's about emotions
that's their that's the mom's job
and yeah uh
we need to lean into that
we need to have those conversations
yeah there's a
there's a a kind of a
a deck of cards going around called Fair Play
and it gets a it
it gets a lot of
there there are some very polarized views
about what fair play is but one of the
one of the concepts that I think is really
really really powerful um
in that is of total ownership
so what it does is it is it creates
there are a bunch of cards that are
you know things that you can own in the household
one of the big criticisms is that
there aren't enough cards that for for yeah
men stuff it's mostly geared towards women and I
and that's a criticism I actually kind of agree with
yeah um
but the key thing there is that
if you're going to take ownership of a card
you own the card fully
you're responsible for every aspect of it
from beginning to end
that taking responsibility for the thing
whatever the thing is is a really
really really powerful concept and and
and it's important to be able to say
you know to my wife okay
I have this and so you know
one of the things I own in our family is um
if someone has to get up in the middle of the night
it has
it's gonna be me because I fall asleep really easily
my wife does not and so
she wakes up at 2:00 in the morning to
take a kid to the bathroom then um
it really disturbs her sleep
and she has a real hard time the next day
but if I wake up at 2:00 in the morning to take a kid
to the bathroom I go right back to sleep
and it's not as disruptive to me
still disruptive I don't wanna have to do it
but it's just way easier for me than it is for her
so that's one of the things I own in the family
and so that means I'm really proactive
if I hear something
I'm trying to make sure that she's resting
the whole the whole point is that she gets to rest
through the potential disruption
and I take it on and
and that's that's a really
really useful concept
taking full ownership of the thing
so that the monkey isn't on her back
in spite of the fact that she's the CEO of the house
and ostensibly she's
responsible for making sure that the kids aren't
freaking out in the middle of the night
and don't pee in their beds
but that's still my it's my task
yeah and that goes out to communication
and it's pretty simple and how many of us
including me sometimes I'm just making the Assumption
oh well
that's that's her job and she knows it
or she's assuming that's my job
and I know it and I don't right
so communication is funny
and I think it's interesting that you talk
I've never heard of those cards
but I kind of like them
and it sounds like what you're saying is
there's way too many what I would say can um
conventionally female jobs and not enough
and like what are like the male jobs
cleaning out the garage and mowing the lawn
like is that yeah yeah
going to work or whatever the thing yeah
exactly
and I've had so many conversations
with the guys about this and it's really interesting
and you know what is
there's no such thing as a female job or a male job
we have the capacity for both
so that's interesting so yeah
and I think you know
if I were to steal man
the position of the advocates of the system
what you're trying to do is
raise awareness to all the invisible
things that happen in the household
that nobody gets credit for
and that you know obviously
you know
typically and historically the women have to do and
and so alright
well let's document those things um
I think that you know
it's reasonable to say oh
well there are also things that
that men do around the house that
that aren't recognize either okay fine
let's create cards for all those things it's
it's great the whole point is to recognize
all of the activity that you end up doing
that isn't appreciated
and if you both if the exercise is oh
we're gonna come together
and define all of these things
and name them and then claim ownership of them
and recognize that we can pass them off
and who owns what and all this stuff
that's a healthy thing to do if it becomes
this way
to battle about who's doing more for the family
or whatever
well then it becomes pretty ugly and I think
I think that has happened a lot and it
it really
I think it points a mag a magnifying glass at the um
at the communication capabilities of the
of the of the relationship and
you know that can be bad and that can be good
um it's interesting
it reminds me of a story
so for each of my daughter's birthdays
we'd have a birthday party
we have family over and I do a video
so what I do is I take you know
pictures and videos from the year
I set it to music and then we all watch it
while we're eating cake and ice cream
that's spectacular I love that
I'm I'm gonna steal that idea
please do
and I've been doing it for my oldest daughters
I think I stopped when she went to college
so I did so for the first 18 years of her life wow
I have a video for every single year
what's interesting is one year in particular uh
I did the video
and then everybody claps at the end of the video
it's just kind of like a kind courteous thing
and then like
I think my mother in law who was alive at the time
she's like oh my god
isn't Todd the best
doesn't he do such a great job with those videos
and my wife was supportive of me
but at the same time she's like okay
just so you guys all know I decided on the date
I created the invitations
I went and got the cake I wrapped all the presents
I made sure you're all gonna be there
she did like 12 different things to get this party
I did this one little thing
and I'm the one getting the accolades
and everybody's so absolutely yeah
and and cause all that other stuff is invisible well
I mean of course you did those things that's yeah yeah
and she deserves she deserves recognition for that yeah
I love that you know I I feel like you and Kathy
uh model really strong partnership and you know
how how do you look at that
and how do you how does a healthy parenting
partnership influence the way that our kids
understand their roles how boys understand masculinity
respect emotional safety
what do you think about that
um first thing
you know I have a really really good marriage and um
I have an amazing partner
and I think she would say that she has an amazing
amazing partner
and a lot of people sometimes ask us like
what's the secret
cause it seems like so easy for you to and by the way
it's not always easy as a matter of fact
upstairs we just kind of had
she didn't feel like I was meeting her needs
because something's going on this
week and all that so it's never it's never perfect
but literally in this moment
like we're in a a little bit of a teeny tiny rupture
which happens from time to time
absolutely um
but one thing I think both Kathy and I have in common
is that we do our own work
what does that mean personal growth work therapy
reading books listening to podcast
talking to friends investigating my own reactivity
investigating my childhood
patterns of why I do things that are no longer helpful
so that's the one thing that we both do
and it wasn't always like that
she was always this personal growth freak
where she's reading books
and she's in therapy and she's seeing an energy worker
and she's doing all this stuff
and I was just a guy who worked and brought home money
and I didn't do anything else
and I had this moment like
if I am going to grow with this woman
I need to get on the train
otherwise she's gonna just go right past me
so yeah
the one thing I would say is the the secret to our uh
marriage which is really
really good is we're both working on ourselves
and the other which is a big thing
it's the ability to navigate conflict
we all have these different conflict styles
I you know there's fight there's freeze
there's flee and then there's one called fawning
I happen to be a fanner
so interesting when my wife is upset with me
I get really small and I become like
a little puppy dog
that just wants to be back in the good graces of her
and I want her to love me and I want her to tell
tell me she loves me that way I feel good about myself
that's my conflict style and I'm working on it
and I try to own it and I try not to show up that way
but we all have different conflict styles
and we're not taught this stuff in school
we're taught all this ridiculous stuff of
and I honor science and math
and history and geography and all that
but wouldn't it be great if we each had a class
in how to navigate conflict styles
maybe when we're in second grade
8th grade high school and one in college
because the only reason I know about is
cause I read books on
experts on how to navigate conflict in a healthy way
and by the way conflict is a really healthy thing
I actually grow closer to my wife
when we resolve our conflict in a conscious way
much more than we would have had
the conflict never happened in the beginning
so conflict although it's uncomfortable and scary
it's a wonderful tool to to bring together
um love and connection in a way
because if we just kind of like
tolerate each other
and we stay out of each other's way
and we avoid all that conflict
that is not the type of marriage I wanna be in
I wanna be in a marriage that's alive and dynamic
not one that's kind of hollow and surfacey
so that would be my two answers
do your own work
and understand how to navigate conflict yeah
my own experience my wife and I have kind of a
I don't know that I would call it a manifesto
or anything but it's a
maybe a tagline and our
what our
what our marriage is about is we're trying to create a
lives of excellence and joy
and
and one of the things that comes with that is
there's a lot of struggle
and I remember you know
recently we've had some really
really really severe struggles that
just kind of working through some stuff
and we've got young kids and all of that
and it feels tough it feels really
really really tough
and you know
maybe you're thinking it's not even worth it sometimes
and then we look around
and we see a bunch of other couples that seem
like they're
way happier than us
but they have really severe problems
like how is it that we feel so concerned about
you know this relatively minor thing
where these other people have gaping holes
in their foundations and they go on like they why
how do they have easier lives than we do
and the reason is because we really
we obsess over those things
and we want them to be good
and we want them to be excellent
and we want them to be perfect
and yeah I mean if you don't care what
you know your lives look like
then it's a little easier to be happy go lucky
but that's not gonna
and you up where you wanna go
and but man
it's hard yeah
it's funny I
my wife and I have had the exact same conversations
like are we making this harder on ourselves
than it needs to be but I think that there's an and
and I don't know this to be true
but my guess is that there's an invisible um
withdrawal of energy for the happy go lucky years
I think that there's something hidden
yeah and if you
if I am not dealing with problems
challenges situations
and instead of me drinking a few beers
or me just going out with the guys
and not resolving something with my wife yeah
um in the short term
I think that that's a really smart strategy
but in the long term
that is just a recipe for disconnection yeah
so I I
I first of all
I totally resonate with what you just said
like these people seem happier
and they don't complicate their lives
the way you and I are complicating it with each other
yeah so uh
but I also know that there's this life force in me
that is uh
that grows when I'm dealing
with authenticity vulnerability
yeah um
challenges conflicts
and not escaping so yeah
yeah I
and you know what the other thing is
is maybe those other people are right
um and maybe their lives are great
and maybe it's easier also
and maybe that's the way to be
it's just not the way I'm gonna be yeah
it just doesn't work for me yeah
like keep doing your thing
yeah but I'm not wired that way right
I gotta deal with this the way I deal with it right
and you know
just the idea of the comparison
I have the same comparison in me
yeah and it's
there's not a whole lot of uh
benefits from comparing our story to somebody else's
but we also have to honor the one in us
that's right that does compare yeah yeah
it helps you kind of get a baseline but
but sure but yeah
I mean there's no
you know yeah
you know
where in your work and especially with men living
where do you see dads getting stuck most often
and what helps them move forward
well some of this
what I just said to you
I think the minute that we feel some type of discomfort
we try to escape from it as guys yeah
I think like
the only emotion that we're allowed to feel is anger
when in fact
there's all these other emotions that are cooking
inside of our body if we can name it locate
it express it so for me
like at men Living we have these five suggestions
so I'll go more go over them real quick
men living consciously so what does conscious mean
conscious just means
am I aware what's going on in my body
in my surroundings without judgment
it's a really hard thing to do to live consciously
by the way it's something I aim to do
most of the time I'm not
but I know that's what I'm aiming for
men living consciously No. 2
men living curiously can I let go of the need to be
right in an argument or at work or with my kid
and instead take my hat off
and then try to put their hat on
and see the world through their lens
that's men living curiously
the third one which is the one I like the best
men living emotionally
because we have so much work to do on this
the only emotion we're allowed to feel is anger
yeah um
I the fact that your son
your 6 year old boy 6 year old boy is an empath
my ask for you is just nurture that as best you can
as long as you can
one story I like to tell is I was watching
I was at the movie theater in my neighborhood
and there's these two boys
probably 4 years old maybe 5
and they were holding hands
two boys holding hands and for me
I'm just like my heart just gets filled up like they
they don't know what homophobia is
they don't know any of that stuff
and I honestly started crying a little bit like
and the reason I cried was because
I loved what they were doing
and showing
and I know the minute they get into first grade
some kids gonna be like are you gay or whatever
and it just makes me so sad to think that so um
our sons are emotional until they get to school and
you know
billboards and TV and movies grab a hold of them so
but we have to control what we can control
and what we can control is um
how we show up in relationship
can our son see that we're emotional
can our sons see that we're vulnerable
can our sons see that we're scared
that we're mad that we're happy
us guys aren't very good at expressing happiness
unless our sports team is winning
what about
what about all the other times when we're having happy
but we're too cool to to look out of control and happy
so yeah so men living emotionally um
is the third one men living candidly
which is can I can I speak from a place of truth
with love and compassion
and can I listen compassionately
which is really hard thing to do
and then lastly is men living intentionally
where are you where do you wanna go
and are you taking the steps
to get to where you wanna go
do you have any intention
so man that is
that is a fantastic list I
I
the end of that story with my son
me trying to distract distract him from being sad um
is a great lesson that he taught me
which is that at some point um
I was doing that and he said dad stop
he's starting to laugh and
and I feel I was feeling victorious and he goes dad
stop and I go what
he goes just let me feel what I feel
you never let me feel what I feel
and I was like I was
you know what you're
and I was like you're so right by that
I had another situation where the boy was um
he's about 18 months old and um
I said to him I said
oh his name is lake
I said lake
give me a kiss
and he comes over and he comes to kiss me on the lips
and I move my my uh
my cheek sideways
so that he could kiss me on the cheek instead
and my wife said to me she goes
why don't you let him kiss you on the lips
and I said yeah
men men don't kiss each other on the lips
and she goes
that's all
and I thought about it for like a day
and I realized that this is an artifact of like
something really not healthy
yeah and you
know I resolved that I wasn't gonna let that do that
and now you know
he kisses me on the lips and I kiss him on the lips
when I drop him off at school
and it's it's a beautiful moment
that's so sweet
and I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that
because there is this kind of embedded homophobia
like men don't kiss other men on the lips
unless they're gay or whatever
I think Tom Brady got into trouble
because he's talking about kissing his dad on the lips
and Tom Brady was an adult
and his dad was an even older
and some people get whatever grossed out by it like
well I do kiss my dad
I don't kiss him on the lips
I kiss him on the forehead and on the cheek or whatever
but first of all
I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that story
and my hope is that you can continue to
show your love in a way that seems
appropriate to you I'm glad your wife challenged you
I'm too that's awesome
um and it's funny like
but you even said
so let me challenge you even though I don't know you
you didn't ask me to challenge you
it's like give me a kiss
do you have daughters too or just sons
I have one daughter and one son
my daughter is 3 years old
so um
kisses are not uh
taken they're offered
so when you say give me a kiss
my even better if would be like
would it be OK if I gave you a kiss
yeah because your daughter most
and I'm I'm focusing on your daughter
cause I have three of them
consent is a huge thing you know
when you and I were growing up
we didn't learn anything about consent
like we didn't even know what it was
we had one day of sex education uh
and it was very uncomfortable yeah
for our parents so consent like or
and now I put on grandparents like yeah
I used to say to my kids oh
go go give Grandpa a hug
and the reason I did that
if I'm being honest is I want my
I want to feel good about myself yeah
so that my dad could feel loved from his grandchildren
right when in fact that's
I don't want to tell anybody to go
do anything with their body right
they they get to decide yeah
um
so just kind of start building that into your practice
or investigate that and see what works
because every family is different
that's a great observation Todd
and I appreciate you challenging me on that
I uh
I I'm gonna give that a lot of thought
yeah yeah
and that's such a reflective thing I
I I do it without even thinking about it
and that's yeah
that's exactly right yeah
well I
I love to um
I love to finish off every single
one of these conversations
by asking my guest the same question
and I know it's gonna be putting you on the spot
but if you had to leave every father listening
or every parent listening with one principle
a grounding idea for raising boys into good men
what would that principle be an operating principle
I would say model
the behavior that you wanna see in your son
if you want your son to treat his partner with Equality
treat your partner with Equality
um
and just do your own work
it's so easy for me to project my
unowned stuff onto my kids
our kids are here to teach us
we're not here to teach them
I'm here to learn from my kids
in the same way that your son taught you
he said let me get this feeling out
don't distract me with laughing
like I think that our kids are here to teach us
a lot more than we're here to teach them
and that's some people think that that's radical
but I would say
what is it that your kids are here to teach you
my kids are here to teach me presence
my kids are too old now
but when they used to walk to school
they would stop and look at the ants
and look at the clouds
and just be fascinated with the world
and I'd be like come on
we gotta get to school get to school
this kid was teaching me presence
that's right can my kid teach me
so look for ways on how your kids are here to teach you
yeah um
that would be another thing I would think yeah
I think that's that's a fantastic principle Todd
thank you very much and
and thank you so much for uh
coming on and sharing your wisdom uh
with me and the rest of our listeners
I I really appreciate it
uh Todd Adams is the executive director of Men Living
he's the co host of Zen Parenting Radio
and uh
if you want to learn more about what he's up to
and especially uh
men living groups
check out the links in the show notes
and to every parent listening
thank you for joining me on Raising Men
I'm Shawn Dawson and you are a great parent
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino