[00:00:00] Antony Whitaker: The end of the year is always a good time to recap and reflect on the previous 12 months. You might choose to do that on a personal or a salon level, but you can also look at what's happening on an industry wide basis and ask yourself questions like, what's worked during the last 12 months? What are the business trends at the moment?
[00:00:27] Antony Whitaker: And where are the opportunities for the year ahead? On today's episode, I'm going to be talking with a good friend and returning guest, Gordon Miller, who amongst many other things is a fellow podcast creator, AI enthusiast, and someone who not only cares deeply about the industry, but he is also someone who has worked across many areas of the industry.
[00:00:47] Antony Whitaker: And as a result, he's developed a very well informed and somewhat unique overview. So in today's podcast, amongst other things, we will discuss the fake news in the hairdressing industry, the integration of AI into everything we do and the evolving relationship between salons and manufacturers and lots more.
[00:01:09] Antony Whitaker: So without further ado, welcome to the show, Gordon.
[00:01:13] Gordon Miller: Antony, it's so good to be here. So good to be here always.
[00:01:17] Antony Whitaker: I'm looking forward to it and thank you because I know that on the day of recording this is Thanksgiving Day in America. And here you are yet again, uh, working. So I will try not to make it, um, you know, too, too
[00:01:32] Gordon Miller: it's, it's, it's, it's our National Day of Gratitude is how a lot of people think of it. And, and I, I'm always grateful to be with you even on Thanksgiving.
[00:01:41] Antony Whitaker: Okay. Well, the feeling's mutual. Okay. So listen, we've got a lot of ground to cover here. A lot of sort of, you know, topical things. I thought would be really good to cover them as we are, you know, into the end of the year, 
[00:01:55] Antony Whitaker: So it's very much a bit of a wrap up of the year. And it's always good to to get your insights because you have a fantastic overview of the industry and a lot of insights into what's happening at every level. And I always, value your opinions 
[00:02:10] Antony Whitaker: And I mean, obviously you're American based, but so much of what happens in the U S uh, impacts everywhere else as well in terms of, you know, business trends, et cetera, not always, but there's definitely a certain amount of it does. And, uh, um, yeah, so I'm looking forward to
[00:02:25] Gordon Miller: On behalf of America, sorry about that.
[00:02:31] Antony Whitaker: Okay. Well, let's, I'm going to start off with, you know, the big thing that's, I mean, it's everywhere in the world, of course, is the, self-employed thing that's been on, on the rise, uh, everywhere now, pretty much.
[00:02:43] Antony Whitaker: And I keep wondering, and I know a lot of people keep wondering is at what point. Will the pendulum start to swing back? And so for you being, you know, on the ground and being in contact with a lot of people, are you seeing any trends as far as that goes in terms of, has it plateaued or is this still a lot of growth than that, or is it gone in reverse?
[00:03:05] Antony Whitaker: What are you seeing happening?
[00:03:07] Gordon Miller: It hasn't plateaued yet. I think it's slowed down. Um, we, um, we believe there's about 120, 000 independents in suites. Let's talk about suites specifically, because that's really where the growth category is, you know, in rental, we've got suites, we've got chair rental, and they're both moving, but suites is what's really exploded.
[00:03:28] Gordon Miller: And so, um, Um, a lot of private equity money in that space, you know, so they're continuing to build buildings and as long as they continue to build, they're going to, you know, pull some people out of commission as long as I personally think we're not going to plateau until we hit around 200, 000.
[00:03:43] Gordon Miller: So we have a ways to go yet. Um, and I think that 200, 000. It was probably two, three plus years to get there. Um, but, but again, I think the growth curve has slowed down. Um, a lot of churn, you know, we hear a lot of people, you know, who are going into it or not succeeding or leaving for one reason or another.
[00:04:02] Gordon Miller: And a lot of those, what we don't know about those people is, are they staying in the industry? We hear, you know, buzz about people going back to commission, but I haven't seen anything that, makes me believe that statistically it's a trend yet. Um, my fear is that we have more people leaving the industry directly out of suites, um, than we do people who are swinging back towards commission.
[00:04:23] Antony Whitaker: Right. But it's just anecdotal. There's no data at the moment to sort of.
[00:04:27] Gordon Miller: Yeah, no, no, no.
[00:04:31] Antony Whitaker: yeah, there was
[00:04:31] Gordon Miller: too soon, I think.
[00:04:32] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah, there was an interesting thing that I heard you speak about. Um, I can't remember how long ago it was, but perhaps it was a year ago, maybe two years ago. And it was one of those sorts of blindingly flash of the obvious things when you did, when you did say it.
[00:04:47] Antony Whitaker: You were talking about the percentage of hairdressers that are self-employed. And you said something like 70 percent of the industry is self-employed. But of course, that doesn't mean that 70 percent of salons are self-employed.
[00:05:04] Gordon Miller: So first off, the perception that that's where we're at is there's been, you know, a lot of work done, um, that has to do with tax filings by the industry. You know, PBA in particular has done a lot of work and that number that you, you use are the percentage of everybody who are self-employed and self-employed People in the industry include suite owners, quote unquote, owners, um, chair renters, and anybody who owns a rental or commission salon, who is the owner, who's self-employed.
[00:05:37] Gordon Miller: And so that's a kind of a hodgepodge of folks, right? And then when we look at like how they. Not file their taxes because that's what that is. I am self-employed and that gets us to that, you know, 70 percent or so and perhaps even a little bit higher. And so you've got about probably 60 plus percent, you know, of people. Okay. Of of everybody who is actually an owner. I think 70s may be a push, but you know, hard to say. And so the average salon that is commissioned has 3 or 4 people in it. The average rental salon has a little bit more than that. So again, when you start to put people in the boxes of where they work, that changes everything.
[00:06:17] Gordon Miller: And so owners and commission stylists together. Are about 50, 55%, maybe a little bit more than that. And then everybody left is an independent. And we're talking about the same thing, but the math is different, right?
[00:06:30] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah,
[00:06:31] Gordon Miller: they work, you know? So I don't know how clear that was, but that's
[00:06:35] Antony Whitaker: It, it, it, no, it's one of those things that I've heard you say it clearer than that
[00:06:40] Gordon Miller: okay.
[00:06:42] Antony Whitaker: I've heard you say it with more clarity than that, that, that, 'cause I remember at the time it was just like, aha. Of course. Because, because of course what we're saying is that in the average commission salon, employee-based salon, there might be. Well, I don't know what that figure is. Is it five people that work in the average salon in the U S
[00:07:02] Gordon Miller: It's, it's thought to be four, you know,
[00:07:04] Antony Whitaker: four?
[00:07:05] Antony Whitaker: Okay. So, so if you've got four people working in one salon that are employees, then 
[00:07:15] Gordon Miller: times 107, 000 salons. So if you take everybody who works in a, in a salon and in a small building, not in a suite building or, or, or not being truly independent, you know, we believe we today, all the numbers point to around 110, 120, 000 salons and that number is always moving and you know, who knows how true that is, but if you multiply that times four, you know, that gets you close to half a million people and we have 850, 000 people.
[00:07:41] Gordon Miller: Everybody, you know, everybody, you know, so right there that carves it out in a different way, but again, it's not about text files. It's where people work.
[00:07:50] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's not a case of saying that, you know, 70 percent of hairdressers are self-employed does not equal 70 percent of salons are self-employed. That's the, uh, That's the message, isn't it? Yeah. I, I hope that, uh, I hope that makes sense to our audience because it is an important
[00:08:12] Gordon Miller: I hope so too.
[00:08:13] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. Um, well, listen, I'm going to jump about a lot here and just touch on some, some topical things that are, very relevant in the industry. Uh, there's been this ongoing theme for the last four or five years, really.
[00:08:26] Antony Whitaker: I mean, COVID obviously lit a, lit a match under it, but it was happening anyway. And that was this whole reassessing of, of work life balance, um, of, you know, really putting mental health on the card, uh, really understanding that there's been a lot more part time work in this industry, people working three days a week, whatever.
[00:08:47] Antony Whitaker: And a lot of pushback against the hustle culture. Now I know I've bundled lots of things in together there, you know, work life balance, mental health, part time work, hustle culture, et cetera. But what are the trends that you've sort of seen, uh, as to how that's all settled down this year?
[00:09:04] Antony Whitaker: Because that's, that's one of the things that I've noticed is we're in this sort of settling phase, aren't we? You know, COVID was like, it, it, it turned everything upside down and gave it a damn good shake. Yeah. And then ever since then, it's trying to find, we're all in every industry, the world is trying to find a, where does this settle?
[00:09:23] Antony Whitaker: What's the, what's the balance with all that? So, uh, can you talk to that for a minute?
[00:09:28] Gordon Miller: Yeah, something that we don't talk about very much relative to COVID is, you know, you and I've talked and I've talked about a lot of my podcasts about misinformation. And I think one of the things that COVID did was kind of set that on fire, like, you know, I think the amount of misinformation in the world first related to COVID itself, but then it just seemed to get into so many parts of our lives.
[00:09:49] Gordon Miller: And I think we have more misinformation, including in our industry than ever before. And then I'll do a dotted line from that to, to this work life balance idea. Because, you know, there's in the coaching space, a lot of people, I think, have really used the anti hustle idea. You know, life can be easier. Life can be simpler.
[00:10:08] Gordon Miller: Life can be more joyful. And we all want those things, right? And you can be more successful. And, you know, um, As you and I've been in the industry a long time, and you know, I think back and I've got, I've always known people who wanted to work less, I've always, we're an industry that embraces, the idea that you can come into this industry and make a decision to bring a family, you know, into the world and, and pull yourself back and work part time.
[00:10:31] Gordon Miller: And we see, we've always seen that. Um, but we've also always recognized, that the less you work, probably the less money you're going to make. And that idea has been turned on its head. Um, and I think a lot of people are buying into that, not only do I want to have these boundaries in a variety of ways around a variety of issues, but I want to do it and make more money.
[00:10:52] Gordon Miller: And I've yet to see any proof point. That's happening. In fact, I see kind of the opposite. Now, I was just at the PBA executive summit and they present a lot of information. I was also at two to 10 Tom Kuhn's conference. And we see a movement into more and more part time. The industry now today, according to research that Tom Kuhn has done, 24 hours a week is the average workload of a person in our industry.
[00:11:19] Gordon Miller: That's aggregating everybody. And so it, you know, we were at 31 or 32 pre Covid. It slid all the way down to 24, um, which is interesting and I can't find any proof points that people are making more money at 24 hours. Um, we have as much turnover as we've always had, but we don't have current statistics. I think turnover is probably worse, but that's just a gut.
[00:11:42] Gordon Miller: Um, but what I really think we all can wrap our heads around mathematically is that if you don't embrace the hustle culture as you move into more part time, there's no way you can make more money. You want to work part time, my best advice to people is in the hours that you work, hustle. That doesn't mean you're a workaholic.
[00:12:03] Gordon Miller: That doesn't mean you work 24 seven. That doesn't mean you triple, quadruple book. It just means take the time that you've chosen to, put into your career and hustle. And the fewer hours you work in a week, the more you need to hustle, in my opinion, if you, if you want to be financially successful, financially viable,
[00:12:22] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. I did a podcast recently. I know you heard it. 
[00:12:26] Gordon Miller: Maxwell Snow, Maxwell
[00:12:28] Antony Whitaker: Yes, sorry, Maxwell Snow. Sorry, I was having a mental block
[00:12:31] Gordon Miller: Yes. Great. It's a great, great episode. Great. It's a great episode.
[00:12:36] Antony Whitaker: thank you. Thank you. And I, I really, um, I loved featuring her because here she is, she's a young woman. She is generating almost half a million dollars a year behind the chair.
[00:12:48] Antony Whitaker: She, she was on track to, to, to beat the half a million dollars this year. So I'll be curious as to whether or not she has, and she works a four day week. She admittedly she works 11-hour days during those four days, but it's sort of like she had this great balance. She said, look, I love football and so I don't want to work Saturdays.
[00:13:07] Antony Whitaker: So I'm going to work really hard Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday before 11 hour days. And, um, you know, she's generating half a million dollars a year. And obviously, you know, you don't have to be a mathematician to work out that she's being paid a lot of money. Um, so, and I love featuring people that do that. Sorry, Gordon, what
[00:13:28] Gordon Miller: and I think you know, you brought up something with her, which was so critical, I think, and I love that you spoke about this with her, which she's not active on social media. Because we have this impression today that that that's a must do. Everybody must be doing social media. And that's where the majority of clients come from.
[00:13:45] Gordon Miller: And again, there's really no proof of that. I've talked to so many people this year who just have doubled down on old school word of mouth because it took less time than social media. I love social media. I'm a proponent. I think people should be active there, but old school word of mouth is really effective and, and Maxwell Snow proves it.
[00:14:03] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Um, you were talking a minute ago and you, you dropped in about fake news. Um, and there's a lot of fake news period. And as you said, you know, across the world, why do you think that there is so much fake news in the beauty industry? Is it any more so than other in any other industry?
[00:14:24] Antony Whitaker: Is it because we, we're maybe a very emotional driven industry, you know, like we've just had, for example, in the UK, we've just had a budget that was brought down. And it's changed the minimum wage laws and, you know, our equivalent of social security, all of that's changed. And a lot of hairdressers are up in arms and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be, but when you dig into the conversation with them, a lot of it is just based on hysteria, not all of it, but very few of them have actually sat down with a calculator and worked out the numbers.
[00:14:57] Antony Whitaker: And when they do, some of them go, Oh, actually it's not as bad as I thought. I'm not pretending that it isn't bad for some people because for other people, it is really bad. So I'll get back to the question, which I asked you, which is, why do you think there is so much fake news in our industry in particular at the moment?
[00:15:15] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:15:19] Gordon Miller: first, first off, we have less traditional media than we've ever had. I grew up in an industry, the old school magazines, the publications, you know, and then the websites that they were kind of institutional. They were, they were resources for people. You knew every month there'd be articles on how to build your career as well as how to do hair and different magazines, different things.
[00:15:41] Gordon Miller: Did different things salon today was known in this country for the great publication for the commission salon owner and how to run your business. And they're still here, but they're probably 1 3rd of the size they used to be because publications, I'm a former publisher, um, dependent advertising dollars.
[00:15:57] Gordon Miller: So just like the larger world, we see less media and I think that other voices that fill that void, you know that there's people who want to have a loud voice and a lot of them have integrity. A lot of them. Are doing marketing speak, you know, and using that void to, you know, kind of fill their own business coffers for good reasons, sometimes for bad.
[00:16:19] Gordon Miller: Um, and it's without the counterbalance of kind of institutional knowledge, brands have cut back on education. I mean, there's not a lot of places for young people to look, you know? And so they look. The social media and they hear what they hear based on the choices they make every day and algorithmically stuff comes their way.
[00:16:37] Gordon Miller: And so if you start listening to messages on social as an example that say, well, retail is not good, and there are those voices that say that you'll get more of that because that's how algorithms work, you know, but if I look at cats, I start to see a lot of cats. If I start to listen to certain people and certain ideas, then it'll feed me more.
[00:16:58] Gordon Miller: And it begins to feel true. It begins to feel validated, whether it's true or not, you know? So I think that is number one. And then I completely agree with the emotional idea. And I think, you know, people are emotionally generally. I think, you know, we can see that in the larger world, how people are reacting to misinformation.
[00:17:16] Gordon Miller: Um, and because it comes for all kinds of reasons, but yeah, the emotions kick in. And that I think also gets us into like this groupthink idea. You know, there's a lot of people, because not only are we getting more information because the algorithms, we're bumping into people. In those posts that we're reading who think the same way we do.
[00:17:35] Gordon Miller: So we see a post that says something may be controversial or, or maybe that's not even true, but it feels like maybe it could be true or should be true. But then we see the comments, the voices, the other hairdressers jumping in. I'm including sometimes well known hairdressers who say it's true. You know, the earth is flat.
[00:17:52] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay. That makes sense. 
[00:17:54] Antony Whitaker: okay. Another thing. So while we're talking about social media, um, and, and I don't know if it comes under the heading of fake news, but I forwarded you a clip that I saw.
[00:18:05] Antony Whitaker: Uh, I think it was on Instagram. Uh, and it sort of made me laugh because it was a young lady in a restaurant. Uh, she was a waitress and, uh, she, she basically had posted something saying that if you can't afford to tip, then stay at home. And it was interesting. And then I looked at the comments underneath it.
[00:18:30] Antony Whitaker: And it was an unbelievable pushback, uh, from the public, from Joe public, like, and I know that there's been a lot of, uh, media attention in the U S around hairdressing and how the hairdressing industry have, uh, as a generalization, there's been a lot of inflationary pricing and, uh, a lot of. Demand for excessive tips, et cetera.
[00:18:57] Antony Whitaker: Um, how, how have we arrived at that point? What, what, and where have we, where have we gone at that point? Has it settled down and found some sort of happy medium?
[00:19:09] Gordon Miller: but two different issues, you know, so I think inflation against prices, you know, I think Everybody I talk to who tracks these kinds of numbers, this is usually in the brand silos and a lot of it's not really public information. Um, but it, the sense is that we over corrected on inflation. That coming through COVID, there was a lot of conversation about, you know, that we're not charging our worth.
[00:19:31] Gordon Miller: And there's been a lot of truth to that. I think we know, we know generally, we struggle to raise our prices. And so coming out of COVID, there was this thought of, it's time to catch up. And a lot of people kind of overshot in how they dealt with price increases. You know, I saw some, some salons going 20, 30, 40, 50 percent was the largest I'd seen.
[00:19:49] Gordon Miller: And some do it successfully and some don't, but generally speaking, you know, it's hard to justify that level. And then in the larger country, we had a lot of like what's happening with inflation and it was easy, I think, for people. To just see. So it's one thing to go to the grocery store, you know, and try to figure out, you know, eggs versus this versus that.
[00:20:07] Gordon Miller: When you go in the salon, you're there for one thing, you know, for a service. And you've been going there for the last five years. And you know what the prices were. And you feel this big jump. And often the explanation online from hairdressers was. Well, we never raised our prices, you know, and the public doesn't care about that.
[00:20:22] Gordon Miller: You know, it's, it's like, so, so the reaction to a big bump did not go well. Then, um, and this year, I think we've seen a lot of people bringing their prices down a little bit or not doing any further increases. Um, we've seen or heard a lot of, a lot of folks losing clients in a lot of salons and those are hard to get back.
[00:20:41] Gordon Miller: So there's definitely been some reaction inside the industry, but it's kind of hard to know how much. Um, but it feels like we've kind of settled down or learned some lessons from that. Time will tell tips is completely different tips. There's a bigger conversation in America about tipping generally, no matter where you go.
[00:20:58] Gordon Miller: I mean, you used to go into a Starbucks and there was a little jar and you put your dollar in, you know, there was no way to tip someone on your credit card. There was no way to push a button pre COVID. Um, and then whether it was Starbucks or my farmer's market, I go to a little farmer's market, you know, part of the year and I.
[00:21:13] Gordon Miller: Buy vegetables and baked goods at the little tables that you can sit outside. They have tipping now. I've been going to farmers markets for 30, 40 years. There was never a tip jar, let alone when I buy with a credit card that thousands and expectation that the lowest tip on any of in my farmer's market was 20%.
[00:21:31] Gordon Miller: And even I struggled with that. I'm like, why am I tipping my farmer's market person now? And, and. Psychologically, a lot of us feel like we have no choice but to tip because they spin the little iPad around and you feel pressure to tip. So I think, you know, that there's just this visceral reaction to this change in kind of the business models that relate as it relates to tips.
[00:21:53] Gordon Miller: Then similarly, you know, as you said, you know, a lot of hairdressers are, um, there's an expectation, let me say, in the service industries across the board that we're in a new world and that people need to be tipping at a higher level. Yeah. Restaurants, for people to understand, do not have to comply with the minimum wage laws in America.
[00:22:12] Gordon Miller: So they have a different minimum wage for restaurant workers. I think it's about three bucks an hour. And so, tips has always been thought of, and most people understand, that you're tipping in part to help pay the compensation of restaurant workers. We, we understand that as Americans. Hairdressing is not that.
[00:22:29] Gordon Miller: Hairdressing is I'm, I'm grateful for the service you provided me. I feel good about my experience and therefore I'm going to give you a tip. Some people think of it as a gift. I don't think of it that way, but I think as Americans, we feel it is optional. And now, now when people are like, Hey, where's my tip?
[00:22:49] Gordon Miller: I think as culturally we're like, well, we never thought we had the tip. You know, we always thought it was optional. We always thought, you know, it's a form of gratitude. And now that you're. Increasing the expectations on us. And so is everybody else we're getting pissed off at everybody who wants tips and that's having a ripple effect.
[00:23:07] Gordon Miller: Across industries, not just ours,
[00:23:09] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. I
[00:23:10] Gordon Miller: but I think it's I think it's settling. I think it's I think it's settling down.
[00:23:15] Antony Whitaker: So, so, so price, so salon service prices went up and the expectation of a 20%, you know, we turn the, We turn the iPad around or whatever the payment device is.
[00:23:30] Antony Whitaker: And how much would you like to tip? And it starts at 20 and goes up to 30, 40, whatever it
[00:23:36] Gordon Miller: Typically. Typically, sometimes you see 15, but it's very rare these days. It seems like everybody starts at 20, you know, the taxis start at 20, you know, I mean, it's, and then the other thing that's fascinating is, you know, there's this like human interaction part of it. It's not like you're doing e commerce or something online and you know, you're in the privacy of your, your, whatever, your moment to make a decision.
[00:23:56] Gordon Miller: Literally, what happens here typically is they're handing you a device. Often, they turn around, the service provider literally turns around so as to give you space to make a decision. But as humans, we know that as soon as we turn around, they can see what the tip was.
[00:24:12] Antony Whitaker: Hmm.
[00:24:13] Gordon Miller: it makes an awkward, it makes for an awkward engagement.
[00:24:17] Gordon Miller: And we, we, we tend to not want to embarrass ourselves. So we, but you know, you bring up something interesting because. on service prices, if we go pre COVID, and let's assume the average, the industry average was 15%, so we had a 100 service and a 15 tip. Now that service goes to 110. And that 110 at 15 percent is more.
[00:24:41] Gordon Miller: So the tip goes up already. So, so now you've got inflation impact because inflation did impact tips, period, if they hadn't changed. But now you take it to 20 and it's like a double hit. So yeah, we're, we're not happy about this as, as culturally.
[00:24:57] Antony Whitaker: yeah, no, I, I get it. I understand. I mean, obviously a lot of, I don't know, for our American audience that are listening to this, maybe don't recognize that there are a lot of countries where you don't tip, you know, at all. I mean, I know you were in Japan a couple of years ago. It's, it's literally viewed as an insult if you try and tip them, you know, um, and there, there are some, some trades, you know, industries in the UK, for example, you tip in restaurants, you tip taxi drivers.
[00:25:20] Antony Whitaker: Uh, you, you will usually tip. At the hairdressers, but there's never any set percentage that you need to take into consideration. Okay.
[00:25:30] Gordon Miller: And there's a big cover. And before you leave that, Antony, there's a, there's a big conversation about encouragement to stop accepting tips. And the only thing I would say there is a warning to folks that if you want, if you are a salon or a professional who has been accepting tips. Versus a new person or a new salon.
[00:25:48] Gordon Miller: If you've been accepting tips to change your business model around. So there is no tips. The math is difficult. The math is very difficult just because of the way all the percentages work and prices have to go up significantly about 30, 30, 30, 35 percent to keep you whole, much longer conversation
[00:26:06] Antony Whitaker: yeah. And I've heard of people that have done that and then gone back the other way pretty quick. Yeah, it was hitting them in the pocket big time. Okay. Um, now I've, I've heard a rumor that you've had an election, um, over there. We had an election here too. Uh, so, so we both, we've already experienced the new government.
[00:26:28] Antony Whitaker: Uh, your, your. You know, in the throes of getting a new government here, they're pretty brutal about it. You lose, you're out the next lot going the next day. Literally, um, what, what sort of changes do you think that a new government, uh, in the U. S. is going to have? Because, uh, obviously a Trump government, you know, have talked about reducing red tape.
[00:26:50] Antony Whitaker: They've talked about tariffs. They've talked about immigration, uh, and they've talked about tipping. They've actually talked about taking tips. Uh, making tips nontaxable, which will be interesting. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, the Trump government has talked about what they're going to do with the inflation.
[00:27:05] Antony Whitaker: So, you know, there's lots of things that they've put on the agenda there. Now, no one's got a crystal ball to know exactly what will happen, but what's the anticipation as to what sort of impact a new government's going to have, uh, on the hairdressing industry?
[00:27:20] Gordon Miller: Well, first off, I'd say the one that seems to excite people the most positively is the potential for no tax on tips. Um, who knows? You know, I personally don't project that's going to happen. Understanding kind of the legal system in America, restaurant workers, you know, as I mentioned, you know, they're under a different set of wage laws.
[00:27:40] Gordon Miller: And so if anybody was to get no tax on tips, I believe. Negotiation, but they probably settled on restaurant work. would be shocked if all tipped workers got no taxes on their tips. Um, and I don't think politically it matters that much. Now that the election is over. So that one I don't believe is going to happen for our industry.
[00:28:01] Gordon Miller: Time will tell. Um, I think it's also important to say that in America, the majority of tips are not claimed. On IRS. I mean, we know that from the IRS. Um, we think tipping is 15, 20 percent on average, but the IRS will tell you that only about not even 5 percent of what's coming in on the, on the paperwork, you know, to the government.
[00:28:22] Gordon Miller: Um, is tips of all revenue. So, so there's a lot of tax evasion on tips. So, you know, that's interesting. The tax evasion would stop that, that part's good, but, um, yeah, so I'm not sure where that's going. I think the other, the big, big, you know, question and the thing that, you know, folks might want to be concerned about, um, will be the impact on tariffs.
[00:28:39] Gordon Miller: That was on the news again today. You know, the incoming president has said, absolutely. There'll be significant tariffs, uh, Mexico, Canada, and China. Okay. And what people don't always understand about tariffs is that tariffs are paid by those who are importing the goods, you know, so if I was a manufacturer and I had to get some of my ingredients from, from Mexico, then when those goods came into the state, that 20, 25 percent tariff would be on me.
[00:29:08] Gordon Miller: I would pay for that and I would pass those costs on to my customers and my products. So a lot of the materials that are used by our manufacturers, our colors, a lot of our. A lot of our products are, are manufactured overseas. You know, it was one very big color line. All of their color is produced in, in, in Mexico.
[00:29:27] Gordon Miller: And so they would, you know, potentially, you know, have a significant, you know, impact on their, on their prices to the salon, to the hairdresser. So I think that's the one that I would be most concerned about and how it will impact us directly, you know, hard to know. And then the last thing I would say is inflationary pressures.
[00:29:46] Gordon Miller: You know, um, we've come out of it. Time, a lot of people still believe, you know, or believe that we're still in a time of high inflation. You know, I could argue that point, um, but tariffs and some of the other things that are being discussed, all the economics or economists, including conservative ones are like, yeah, these are going to push inflationary pressures up and inflationary pressures are never good when you serve the public because they're feeling those pressures and that could impact how they decide to spend their money for services or products or other things.
[00:30:15] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Um, now I mentioned we were going to talk about AI and, uh, if, if you were in the U S and you said, who, who's Mr. AI, they'd probably say Gordon. Um, because I know you've rarely embraced AI, you've talked about it. You've been on stages all across the United States, uh, talking about AI and, uh, you know, the importance of it, how it's changing the world and indeed how it's changing this industry.
[00:30:42] Antony Whitaker: Um, I think a lot of people, definitely me included, it's this avalanche of AI. I mean, the uptake, and you know, I get these newsletters every day, you know, that are AI specific. And just reading them make, make, without taking any action, just reading them about, about these new advancements, this new tech, this new, new piece of technology, this new AI tool that you're meant to use in your business, you know, without even looking, clicking on the links and exploring them and watching the videos and stuff, it's just this absolute overwhelm.
[00:31:21] Antony Whitaker: So. What's your sort of perspective? Because I know you're more in touch with it in our industry than anybody else's that I've come across. What's your perspective on, on how that sort of settling into the industry and how the industry is, you know, responding to AI?
[00:31:39] Gordon Miller: well, a couple of things. So big picture, what we're all experiencing. You know, globally, not just our industry, but this avalanche, as you say, you know, stuff, you know, it's interesting because it's, it's being driven by money, you know, so it's important, I think, to recognize that all this innovation has become because there's so much investment being made, which gives people the opportunity to come up with new things or different versions, and then you have these big, big companies, you know, Apple, you know, is a great example.
[00:32:04] Gordon Miller: They kind of stayed out of AI for a long time, and now they have. You know, Apple intelligence, you know, um, their version of AI is going to their phones. And so all the big companies are just throwing more and more money into it. And the stock market's lost his mind, you know, in a positive way about all this, that's helps explain the avalanche.
[00:32:23] Gordon Miller: The other thing that helps explain it is that, you know, there's a, there's a mathematical formula about how fast innovation changes and how, what the curve of innovation, and that. Curve has been exploded and all the tech people are just like, it's changing literally every two months. Things are doubling.
[00:32:38] Gordon Miller: So there's that. Um, I think most importantly for most of us, um, we may have talked about this before, you know, we're in an early adopter phase. So people like me are just obsessed with it, you know, but. But the general public, you know, is I think a little fearful of it, a little overwhelmed by it, um, but we'll mostly experience it by way of the apples and the Microsoft's putting it in their products and then in our industry, all the, uh, POS systems, you know, the millennium softwares.
[00:33:09] Gordon Miller: The Zanotti's, I know you were at their conference recently, um, the Boulevard's, the Vigaro's, they're all working really hard on bringing as much AI as they possibly can. I'm aware of five platforms now that are kind of new startups that are coming into the industry. Um, that have not been announced yet.
[00:33:29] Gordon Miller: They're working on, most of them are working on like, uh, 24, 7 AI concierges for salon. I just had a amazing demo last week where I was like, okay, this blew my mind. Um, it's still under wraps, but it's coming. So I believe most of us, you know, are going to experience that. We can sit back, you know, not get too stressed about it because it's just going to show up in everything.
[00:33:51] Gordon Miller: You know, and, and, you know, I've talked about this before that the big global experts are like, it's going to be like electricity. It's going to be everywhere. We're not even going to think about AI It, and AI has been around for a very long time that we were never even talking about it until open AI just brought it into our consciousness.
[00:34:07] Gordon Miller: So my advice to everybody is it's going to be here. You don't have to use ChatGPT. You don't have to be one of those people who decides, Oh, I'm going to use this tool to write because it's going to show up in other writing tools and you're not gonna have to think about it.
[00:34:22] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. So I just want to go back to something you dropped in there. And, um, I thought, Oh, that sounds interesting. Uh, what, what, what are these new, you refer to them as a concierge. Can you talk any more about that? Is it, is it another salon management system, but it's got, it's more built around AI or is it something different again?
[00:34:43] Gordon Miller: It's something different again. Um, and there's been versions of this, but what, what it, what it really is, you know, another bit of somewhat misinformation and, and, and somewhat a trend is, you know, the industry saying, you know, get rid of your front desk. And, and I would say, you know, front desk, we've been getting rid of three years and it really means get rid of receptionists.
[00:35:02] Gordon Miller: And, and, you know, and then we know people, you know, like, you know, the Van Michael salons who probably would cut off their arm rather than get rid of a receptionist, you know, so it's a, it's a question of scale and the value they bring to your business, smaller business has struggled to afford that. So this really is like your AI receptionist, who's always there 24, seven, you'd never miss a phone call.
[00:35:23] Gordon Miller: Um, there's been studies done that show if you miss a phone call that 70 percent of those people make an appointment somewhere else, literally, they can't get you, they move on, you know, and if you had a, an automated reception, it was good enough. And the one I just heard last week, like, it sounded like I was talking to a real person.
[00:35:40] Gordon Miller: And I was participating in the demo. I was asked to ask it anything you want. I threw it crazy things. I asked if I could bring my dog in and get my dog shampooed, you know, with me. I just, and it, it answered everything perfectly. It's like, no, we don't allow dogs in the slot unless it's a service animal.
[00:35:59] Gordon Miller: And I said, my dog is a service animal. Could you shampoo my service animal dog? And it said, you know, I'm going to escalate that to my manager. Who's going to call you after we're complete. And did,
[00:36:12] Antony Whitaker: Good.
[00:36:12] Gordon Miller: and did. And so, so it's really the AI, never sleeping, never away, a receptionist who can book appointments, who can answer.
[00:36:23] Gordon Miller: I asked it, what products do you carry? I asked it, Oh, you carry that line. What about this specific product that I know about in that line? Do you have it? Was able, how much is it? Um, I want to get these things. I asked to get a men's haircut. Um, I asked to get a fade, which I never would. Um, it asked me what kind of fade would I like?
[00:36:45] Gordon Miller: Um, you know, I said a tight fade. Um, it got me all set up and it told me about the hairdresser. That person has a reputation for doing great fades. I said, I want to get a color gloss too. It said, which  is a strange request on a fade, right? And it, and it reported back to me again, a great human tone. It just said, you know, I'm sorry, but John or whatever his name was, um, does not offer that service.
[00:37:14] Gordon Miller: But if you'd like. We can look at someone else who can also do that, or I can have someone contact you, you know, so very impressive. And the other ones have been as well. And I think, I think that will be with us soon. Um, I do believe that these startups are going to be challenged because I think the big software companies, the ones that we've known, they've been around the booking platforms, the POS system, they're going to jump on these same ideas.
[00:37:38] Gordon Miller: You know, it's hard for small startups to, compete in the tech space once it gets moving, because people borrow ideas from one another. And those who have the most money and resources, you know, often win. Yeah.
[00:37:49] Antony Whitaker: Exactly. Interesting. Okay. Um, I sort of used that analogy earlier where I was talking about You know, the last five years have been like a sort of a settling phase of where is the world now? And one of the things that I've noticed, uh, you know, in the industry that have had a big impact, they've had a big impact on me personally, is the event space.
[00:38:11] Antony Whitaker: Um, where are we? 'cause I know a lot of the big, uh, a lot of the biggest brands, the biggest brands in the world in America were, were very, you know, proactive in doing an annual or a biannual big event. And that sort of thing seems to have disappeared. Um, where, where is the event thing settling down there and in the, in the us What sort of trends are you seeing around all that?
[00:38:36] Gordon Miller: So, um, a lot of, you know, somewhat subtle movement, but, but, you know, it's, it's, it's all important. It's all, it's all really, really interesting. So COVID happens, of course, and everything shuts down, right? Including the biggest of the big events, the big trade shows, the big brand events that you're referencing.
[00:38:53] Gordon Miller: They all temporarily went away and then they had to come back and deal with not only, you know, the expectations of the crowds and people and what they wanted to do and not wanted to do. But the expectations of exhibitors and sponsors and, you know, how are they going to spend their money? So a lot of moving parts and pieces that were all kind of evolving.
[00:39:11] Gordon Miller: The big, the big, big trade shows all came back, you know, better than I expected, to be honest. But most of the big brands set out or sat out of them, you know, and have not come back in the same ways. So I, I really. My experience in the big trade shows was more tools than ever. Makes a lot of sense. You know, great place to go try tools, see tools, buy tools, you know, hold them, you know, um, new things, new ideas, a little bit of new products, but not what we used to see.
[00:39:39] Gordon Miller: Big color companies, big stages with performances of hairdressers. And so it seems like it's tightened up. Um, the crowds are smaller, they're still really healthy, you know, but there, there's less people at the trade shows than there used to be. We've seen some tightening of the spaces, but they're not going away.
[00:39:54] Gordon Miller: Um, there was fear they would disappear. They're definitely not going away. They're, they're just a little bit different. Um, and I think they're perfect, especially for younger people. And that's what we see. I believe the age has come down. I've seen no data on this, but I've been at most of them. I've been in the middle of them.
[00:40:08] Gordon Miller: I've been there all three days. Uh, if it was a three day show or two days, if it was a two-day show. And talking to people that I know at the shows that watch stuff, we're all kind of like, yeah, it feels younger. You know, it feels like a lot younger and it's a perfect place. It's a Disney, it's the Disneyland of air dressing, you know, and you're young.
[00:40:23] Gordon Miller: You've never been to Disneyland. Then before it's exciting to go to, so that, you know, the big, big trade shows, um, then the big brand events, um, some of them are coming back, but in a different way. Redkins symposium was arguably the biggest brand event in the industry. 12, 000 or so attendees, you know, um.
[00:40:40] Gordon Miller: Every two years, and now we see they split it up. It's more regional now. I think three or 4000 people at each event. But, you know, two events last year and then one in Europe. And so they've cut it up a little differently. It was a 3 4 day event. You know, it was really, you know, power networking, really deep, lots of classrooms.
[00:41:00] Gordon Miller: Last time I went to Reagan's symposium, there were no breakout rooms. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was just all one. Big event, which has its own energy, which is great, great education. I would actually inspiration on stage. I don't consider that education. So a different kind of event. Well attended, um, Paul Mitchell gathering.
[00:41:17] Gordon Miller: I've been told is coming back, um, next year. I haven't seen any particular, but that could be the case. Um, serious business, which is not a brand event, but well, a distributor brand event, very evaded connected. The Neil, Neil family runs that event. Um, I did the conference last year. It's a conference I'm doing, excuse me again.
[00:41:34] Gordon Miller: This year. And, um, very, very well attended and that's a good kind of bridge into conferences. Um, Masters of Aliaj, Ryan Whedon, he just had his first big conference. I was told like 800 people at it. Um, other influencers, you know, who are kind of well-established or jumping into that conference space as brands and some of the events companies are kind of stepping away from it.
[00:41:56] Gordon Miller: And I think that's fascinating. And I think that's going to continue. I think we're going to start to see some really interesting boutique events coming up. But I think generally speaking, there's less education than ever, you know, people always, even brands will say to me, we're so much independent educators.
[00:42:11] Gordon Miller: I'm like, well, if you really pay attention to it and see how many people are at each event, it's a fraction of what we had at the bigger events. So I do believe that we have less people going to events than ever. And they're different. And, um, but what that math looks like, it's hard to know. And it's important to say that the majority of hairdressers in any given year in America didn't go to an event.
[00:42:33] Gordon Miller: Anyway, there's always been confusion about the number of people who go to events in the industry. I think it's not more than 20 percent in a year. And I think it's a little lower than that perhaps now.
[00:42:44] Antony Whitaker: The old 80 20 rule again applies to so many things. And I would totally agree with that, that, you know, 80 percent of people in the industry never go to an event before or since, you know, so, okay. Um,
[00:42:57] Gordon Miller: and there was this, there was this thought that we'd go into digital events and those failed, you know, so
[00:43:02] Antony Whitaker: yeah, they haven't really taken off. I think, I think we're such a social animal that people want, you know, that social interaction as well as the education format that perhaps isn't always as delivered as well as what it could be digitally. Um, Oh
[00:43:19] Gordon Miller: that I believe is the number one problem. So, sorry.
[00:43:22] Antony Whitaker: On that note, uh, social media, you've always been a great advocate of social media as well.
[00:43:29] Antony Whitaker: you've always had a good Overview of how the social media landscape is evolving. Um, so just a quick sort of wrap up on I mean, who knows what's happening with X, so I don't, I don't expect you to know because I don't think, I don't think anybody does, including the guy who owns it, but X, uh, threads, um, and now BlueSky, um, what, what's your uptake on, on, uh, on the social media scenario? 
[00:44:00] Gordon Miller: I think most importantly is to understand why we use social media, you know, so on a personal level, you know, all kinds of things to talk about, because each of the things you mentioned kind of have a different audience, a different purpose. Um, Twitter. Now, X was really never that relevant to salons. It was a great place to go find news or whatever else you're looking for was not ever considered by the masses in our industry to be a great place to find clients.
[00:44:26] Gordon Miller: It just wasn't,
[00:44:27] Antony Whitaker: yeah, I agree,
[00:44:28] Gordon Miller: TikTok was similar. TikTok has changed. It's become more interesting, and there are certainly lots of examples. I know lots of branding ambassadors and influencer types who are very successful on TikTok. Who get clients because of it, but most people do not, you know, and it's a different, it's an entertainment platform, first and foremost, probably educational number two, but it takes a lot, you know, to be successful there.
[00:44:48] Gordon Miller: It's very different algorithm and functions differently. You know, Facebook and Instagram remain kind of the gold standard. As business people, you know, as entrepreneurs, as salon owners, as [00:45:00] stylists looking to build your business, that's where the energy still is highest. That's where we see the most success.
[00:45:06] Gordon Miller: I think there's a lot of confusion around the rest of them. And, um, blue skies is a alternative for many people to X, but again, X never really did much for salons. I don't, I doubt that blue sky is going to either, but, but interesting spaces. So Instagram and Facebook and those algorithms are changing. So.
[00:45:23] Gordon Miller: My message to everybody this last year is double down on old school word of mouth. Encourage your clients to give you referrals. Don't stop social media. I think social media is important, but I think if you put more effort into old school word of mouth, I think the return on investment is quite significant.
[00:45:41] Gordon Miller: And I think going back to you, we mentioned Maxwell Snow earlier. She just such a great example of a person who's not doing much with social, who's completely booked, you know, is going to book over half a million dollars of services. And I know so many people who aren't at that level of money coming in, but who are just telling me in conversation after  conversation, how beneficial refocusing that effort has been in rebooking and getting more people to come to remember to rebook or just book, you know, um, and, and ask their friends, you know, to, because that's, I think that's part of it too.
[00:46:16] Gordon Miller: When you're encouraging people to tell other people, I think it also Reminds them why they're there, you know, and hopefully locks them in even more solidly.
[00:46:24] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 
[00:46:26] Gordon Miller: Um, and if you're not doing reels, that brings its own challenge. Not everybody's up for reels. So it's gotten complicated. Um, the one thing I know for sure, or I, I truly believe this to be true. Um, I can't necessarily prove every bit of it that if you really do old school word of mouth, well, um, I think you will more than likely be successful with it.
[00:46:49] Gordon Miller: And you will begin to build your business, doing social media. Well, the competition in the social media space for so much information coming to individual human beings, it's harder than ever. And I think it's harder to be successful developing clients on social than it is to do word of mouth.
[00:47:08] Antony Whitaker: yeah,
[00:47:08] Gordon Miller: I would also say generationally that the younger folks coming into the industry, word of mouth is not their thing, old school word of mouth.
[00:47:15] Gordon Miller: It's, it's a, it's culturally, it's not their thing. So I think that's its own challenge. Yeah.
[00:47:21] Antony Whitaker: There's this, you've sort of, you touched on it earlier when you mentioned about retail and, uh, how for a lot of younger hairdressers, there's certain people putting in, uh, it's fake news again, basically that, you know, you don't make any money out of retail, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:47:38] Antony Whitaker: And a lot of people or some salons are, are not. Um, on the, on the retail sort of bandwagon, the way that perhaps they might've been 10 years ago. for a whole, a whole raft of reasons. Now, when you think about that, obviously the relationship between the salon owner. And the supplier was a really, or manufacturer was a really important relationship.
[00:48:06] Antony Whitaker: And at the end of the day, the manufacturer is trying to sell their product. And if their product, i. e. shampoos, conditioners, styling products, are not going to be sold through salons, then of course, they have a financial responsibility to their shareholders, et cetera, to make sure that they're being sold through whatever other mediums So I'm sort of just Curious about if that's what's happening if salons are becoming less Um, you know, less aligned maybe with their product manufacturer.
[00:48:40] Antony Whitaker: What is that doing to the relationships between salons and suppliers? Because obviously suppliers are then, you know, looking for other outlets and arguably that can then even amplify the problem of a parting of the ways. What are your thoughts about that? Am I sort of on to something or is that not a thing?
[00:49:03] Gordon Miller: No, I think, I think you are, I mean, I think the picture we've kind of moved into again, post COVID like a, a more transactional industry and back to something you'll see said earlier, you know, we're an emotional industry. And I think so many of those relationships were based on emotions, you know, um, in a good way.
[00:49:22] Gordon Miller: And, and, and the reason for that often was that one of the best things that came out of having those relationships was education. That the majority of education in the industry was coming from manufacturers and distributors and coming out of COVID, that formula kind of changed, we saw that pulling back of that.
[00:49:39] Gordon Miller: We also saw this kind of negativity about the idea of retailing, which to me, you know, was coming from a lot of coaches and, and it just was, was, um, kind of buying into people's feelings. You know, we've always struggled with retail. We've always as an artistic community struggled with the idea of selling.
[00:49:55] Gordon Miller: And, but yet we have these examples of salons that are very successful at it. And a lot of these businesses, really big, successful salons, you can almost make an argument that their success as retail is what's driven their entire business, you know, because retail often brings culture with it. You know, you have a big relationship with the brand, kind of can magnify the culture you have, or even bring you kind of a core that you can build on top of, it brings nonstop education into it.
[00:50:22] Gordon Miller: If you're doing enough business with, with the brand. Um, it brings the opportunity to send your team members to cool events. And a lot of times a brand will pick up the cost if you're doing enough retail. There's just, there was so many benefits in those relationships. And in a post COVID world, a lot of that has frankly gone away.
[00:50:39] Gordon Miller: And then, and then connected to that going away is this negativity in the air that has been leveraged by some of the coaches that just creates more of it going away. As, as we pull back from retail, the bigger idea that the industry should Has the ability economically to give back, it's just, it's tightening and it's going away. 
[00:51:00] Gordon Miller: Um, free back bar was also, you know, was, was, was a big deal. Having said all that, you know, um, the examples of success in the retail space remain all around us, you know, all around us. And I recently, um, talked about this with somebody, it was, um, if you look at profitability, you understand this way better than I, you know, the average salon in America is not profitable.
[00:51:23] Gordon Miller: It just isn't, you know, and if you take an example of a traditional four- or five-person salon that's doing a quarter of a million dollars a year in service dollars, um, likely the profits are zero. That's just the way it is because when you add up the costs of staffing and commissions and all the rents, profit comes in very, very slim, if anything.
[00:51:42] Gordon Miller: Take that exact same salon and have 20, 000 worth of retail sales. And all of a sudden that unprofitable or barely profitable salon has four or five, you know, maybe 10, as much as 10, 000 in profits. Very simple. Now there had to be effort that gone into it. And there's a, there's more to the story, but the truth of the matter is profits happen and there's long been a conversation that retails the most profitable quote unquote service that we provide and there's a lot of truth to that,
[00:52:11] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Okay. All right. Well, listen, before we wrap up, what, what, what would your predictions be for 2025? If you had to sort of go, these are the things that I'd sort of nail to the mast or predict as going to happen. Sorry to put you on the spot. You've pretty much been predicting things all the way through this conversation, but are there three things you'd like to sort of pick out as being, these are things that are important that you should look out for, because I think this is going to happen.
[00:52:40] Gordon Miller: I think, um, big picture. Um, in the United States, we have something called 10 99. It's a, it's a tax status that was assigned to workers. It's illegal, basically. Um, and a lot of salons do it. Nobody has the math because it's not legal the way that people are doing it and shouldn't be happening. Um, it's a way to shift tax burden from a salon owner to a stylist.
[00:53:02] Gordon Miller: It's the easiest way to say it. Um, and more and more salons, as they're pressured because of the growth of independence, are moving to 10 99. Um, that's bad for the industry. It's bad for individual salons. I know historically many salons have been put out of business by the IRS because they're 10 99, because of fines and all kinds of things.
[00:53:21] Gordon Miller: So that's a bad thing for the industry. And I see it moving in the wrong direction, unfortunately. I think, you know, I recently heard our friend, Robert Cromeans, uh, speaking on this topic and I think he's spot on, um, I'm going to push it farther than he did, but he was questioning, you know, the, the commission model for salons and in California, it's not easy where he's based to have a commission.
[00:53:43] Gordon Miller: They have to do some things differently to get around, to work with the laws that have been put in place in the last, you know, five or so years. And he's like, you know, um, the best thing I ever did was move to hourly. People understand their compensation. Um, I've long struggled with the idea that the industry generally has a hard time understanding commission.
[00:54:01] Gordon Miller: People who are getting commissions have a hard time understanding how the calculations were done, understanding what it really means, you know, moment to moment in their lives. And a lot of times, so long as I can explain it. I, my big prediction, I would say over the next five years is that a movement away from commission nationally.
[00:54:18] Gordon Miller: I really think that. The time is right to move into a more hourly form of compensation that doesn't take away the opportunity to earn. As Robert pointed out, his team is making more money than they've ever made, but they're on hourly compensation, but he's always looking at the commission model. To inform the decisions about what people get paid hourly, you bring in more services.
[00:54:40] Gordon Miller: He wants to raise your hourly rate. So I think that's that would be a big, bold prediction, you know, is that we will begin to see the kind of unraveling nationally, you know, the commission model. Um, I think, lastly, if I pick the 3rd 1. I think there's going to be a reckoning with coaches in 2025. I think, you know, it's an interesting space.
[00:55:03] Gordon Miller: You're a coach. You know, I think we have some brilliant coaches out there. Our friend Nina Kovner is a coach. I think she's again, one of the best. Michael Coles, there's so many great coaches, including young coaches, you know, but there's a lot of not very good coaches, we don't have a way to vet coaches, like you can't even find reviews of them, you know, I wish one of the publications would do just an honest.
[00:55:21] Gordon Miller: You know, take on all the coaches. Here's where we see, here's where we get good feedback from people. Here's maybe not so well. And, you know, whether it's the Michelin star version of, of rating of coaches, but coaches just aren't vetted. Um, there's, there's a lot of coaches with no training. Um, we have some prominent coaches telling people how to open salons, run salons, you know, um, Who've never opened a salon or run a salon, you know, and, and, you know, I think that's a struggle.
[00:55:48] Gordon Miller: Not that you have to have done that to be a good coach. You can be a coach with, you can be a great, um, professional, uh, coach of a professional football team, even though you've never played as a professional football player, you can still be a great coach, you know? So it's not that they, they have to be that way.
[00:56:05] Gordon Miller: But I would think twice about a coach that hasn't had that experience, at least get some referrals or check on them. So I think there's going to be a reckoning. And I think we're going to see a kind of a culling of the herd of coaches.
[00:56:16] Antony Whitaker: um, okay, all right, well, that's a good place to start to wrap up. Um, Gordon, I always finish up with this and we've done it before. I'm going to ask you the same thing again. Where, where can people connect with you on Instagram or other social media channels if they wanted to, to reach out?
[00:56:32] Gordon Miller: And Instagram is the place to connect with me. I don't, you know, I watch the rest of them, but I don't really engage on the other platforms. Um, so Instagram is the place you can direct, you can direct message me. You can follow me, of course. And I go by Gordon M there, but it's spelled G O R D N M. Um, so not the second O-G-O-R-D-N-M.
[00:56:52] Gordon Miller: That's a great place to find me. I answer all my direct messages and I have a website and a free newsletter. Social, uh, social beauty makers.com. Social beauty makers.com. And then I have my podcast, social Beauty Makers. Um, and I have another podcast called Mastering Beauty, and I'm thinking about a third one.
[00:57:07] Gordon Miller: Oh, here's a great prediction. I have to add this, um, all this thing outside the industry that I'm hearing podcasts. Are going to explode this next year. Um, and coming out of the election, a lot more people were exposed to podcasts. I think we have too many podcasts in the industry. So I think some of them will probably go away, but I think we are going to see more interest in podcasts perhaps than ever before, and that should be interesting, I think it's going to make all of us better.
[00:57:32] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, very interesting. Again, on that note, I heard some data about that, and it was something like, I don't know the right numbers off the top of my head, but it was, there's a huge number of podcasts, you know, 4 million plus podcasts now, but only something like 400, 000.
[00:57:52] Gordon Miller: Yeah.
[00:57:53] Antony Whitaker: There's an awful lot of people, very few podcasts get past 10, 10 episodes.
[00:57:57] Antony Whitaker: Uh, a lot of people realize how hard it is. There's so much work that goes into it and money, you know, time and money to, to keep it going. So I think a lot of people get, get tired of them. So although there's a lot in the space, there's not a lot that continue.
[00:58:12] Gordon Miller: And there was another stat you may have heard. We may have heard it from the same source. It was a third step that went with that those numbers because I heard those exact same numbers are pretty darn close. Um, there's only about 600 podcasts globally that make money that are profitable
[00:58:26] Antony Whitaker: Yes. Yeah.
[00:58:27] Gordon Miller: think of media, you know, there, so there was that, you know, so it's a very small, because a lot of people I talked to who were wanting to get in the podcast space, they're, they're looking at as a business opportunity.
[00:58:36] Gordon Miller: I can get some sponsors. And I'm like, good luck with that. You know, it's,
[00:58:39] Antony Whitaker: yeah, exactly.
[00:58:41] Gordon Miller: Most of it do it. Cause we have a passion for the space and we have a passion for sharing.
[00:58:45] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, listen, I'll, I'll put your Instagram links in the, uh, uh, show notes for today's podcast. So if you listened to this podcast with Gordon and have enjoyed it, then do me a favor, share it with people who, you know, would also enjoy it. There's a lot of wisdom in what he says.
[00:59:02] Antony Whitaker: And, So to wrap up, Gordon, Happy Thanksgiving. Um, thank you for giving us your time today. I know by the time people listen to this, it'll be, you know, a couple of weeks historical, but, uh, uh, thank you for giving us your time today and for, as usual, being a real font of good information and wisdom, uh, and, you know, sharing that so openly and honestly for our audience.
[00:59:26] Antony Whitaker: So, uh, to wrap up Gordon, uh, it's been a pleasure once again, and, uh, speak to you soon.
[00:59:34] Gordon Miller: And thank you for having me back on what I have said publicly is my favorite podcast, your podcast, Antony. So thank you again. Um, happy holiday season, perhaps most importantly, happy 2025 to everybody.
[00:59:48] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. Okay. Thanks again.