Chris: Welcome to another episode of ordinary discipleship
podcast. My name is Chris. There's Jacob, and, of course,
Jesse. And today we are talking about something in discipleship.
You know, a lot of times Jacob brought this up before this
podcast. You go to a new member class, right? And you're sitting
there and they give you the quiz where you figure out, this is
where I'm gifted, and then they figure out where they can plug
you into the church. And I'm wondering if that's the right
way. Well, you know, a lot of times we figure out, okay, if
I'm good at this, if I'm good at some kind of talent, let me be
the best in this church at that talent. But maybe, just maybe,
it's in community where we really discover, I our identity.
Jesse has spoken about this. Jacob spoken about this. I've
listened about this, and I'm excited because there are 5c
that you're going to want to walk away with. We're going to
define them. We're going to hear a story about jellyfish today. I
mean, we've got it all packed in in 20 minutes. Jesse go, Oh,
Jessie Cruickshank: I love it. So when I do training with
churches, one of the tools that I use that that is reflected
back to me to be one of the most useful ones, is this five Cs.
Now, I didn't, I didn't write this, and there's like 1,000,005
C's out there. So I'll tell you what this is. But this comes
from Malcolm Weber, and it's this idea that the discipleship
journey, or if we're going to look at like scale, from the
inside out, goes Christ community, character, calling
competency, and that this is an order. It's an order in which
you build right? We start on Christ, we center on Christ. And
that is, that is our core Christ. Likeness is the goal.
And then around Christ, we form community. So we have a
community of faith, and it's in the community that our character
is developed, right? Character isn't developed outside of
community. Character is developed in community. We've
we've talked about that on a different podcast. And then out
of that, as your character is formed, we begin as a community
to start to discern calling, and then we can be equipped, or
become more competent towards that calling. So that's kind of
like the big overview. But we're gonna, we're gonna unpack a
couple of these.
Chris: Okay, well, let's unpack. I mean, here's the suitcase. Do
you wanna unpack it? Right? Who wants to unpack this? Well,
Jacob: I think so those words that Jesse used could all mean
different things in different contexts. So we'll like, walk
back through them for one more second. Christ, we kind of know
is Jesus, right? So what we're saying is like the formation of
your identity begins in Christ, and as we find our place in
Christ. We discover that we're a part of a community. We are one
together with all those who are in Christ. And as we've talked
about in other episodes, being in community with one another
can be uncomfortable. And so it's actually in bouncing off of
other people, reflecting off of other people, that we begin to
form our character, who we are. We are shaped and we're refined,
and it's then, through that refinement, discovering the way
that we serve and are served by others, that that's how we
discover calling. Once we've settled into who we're called to
be and what we're called to do, then we can get better at it.
That's developing competency. And what why Jesse is saying
this is most helpful is because, and what Chris was saying at the
opening with like a gifts assessment is that tends to say,
Hey, what are you good at? Let's just help you major on what
you're good at. Let's just double down on your skills, and
that'll be your calling. But it neglects this identity formation
that starts in Christ, continues in community and is refined as
you develop your character.
Jessie Cruickshank: And at worst, we end up with like this
pathway that we can see sometimes, where we take a gifts
assessment, go to seminary, and we gain greater competencies,
but then we're like, oh, out of what I'm good at, I'll discern
my calling. And we never actually get to character. So we
end up with well trained people who may be in the right like
calling, gifting, vocation, but they they have no character.
Their character is not Christ likeness. And because we didn't
take the formation pathway in the right order, we came from
the back end thinking, Oh, well, if being if knowing what I'm
supposed to do and being good at it is the measure of success, we
just want to jump straight there, and we miss and neglect
that formational journey that actually has an order and a
pattern to it.
Chris: So yeah, maybe we talk a little bit more about the order
and the pattern of that. I mean, obviously you have to start off
with Christ in the middle, but then speak a little bit about
community. What's that look like? What's that mean? This is
different than what I've been through. For sure, it makes
sense that our identity. Is formed in community. But are you
talking about this from, like, the perspective of a church,
like this is how we should do discipleship, or as from the
perspective of an individual? I'm kind of confused on that. I
Jacob: think it's true of all people, that we find out who we
are by by reflecting off of others. So I actually like, I
don't really know completely like, if I'm only looking at
myself, I only have one perspective, but when I know how
you perceive me, that reveals different things about myself
and about finding my place in community. I mean, think about
like your family of origin, right? So it's kind of like most
people know birth order makes a difference, yeah, and that's
because the role you play in your family can be determined by
the birth order, and we all kind of find different places to
occupy in that family system growing up, and that's how our
identity is formed. So like that family of origin conversation is
a conversation about a community that forms in a household that
helps you to shape who you are, for better or for worse. Now,
what we're saying for a church is that church being centered on
Christ allows us to form our identity in Christ as we all are
centered on him together.
Jessie Cruickshank: So some of the neuroscience there is that
we know each other by the way that we interact with other
people like because of the way the brain forms, the way the
because of the way that identity is is crafted and formed in our
souls and our personhood. We have to have other people to do
that. At the beginning, we have to have other people to feed us
and to change our nappy and to like, clean us up and all of
those things. Then we have other people, and they name us, then
they model for us, like what to do and how to get along in this
world. I mean, as a species, we have an extraordinarily,
ridiculously long development, and that's because there's
supposed to be this community around us that has helped
growing, shaping and forming us, and that's how the brain is is
molded into, like, where we're going. And that journey actually
doesn't end. There's not like one thing you're supposed to be
and do in this world. There's many things that you're supposed
to be and do. And so that that journey, it's a journey of
identity, and there are these different markers, right?
Because, you know, I'm a kid, then I'm a teenager, I'm a
college graduate, and then I'm a, you know, I mean, I'm a
bride, and then I'm married, right? All of these things are
just different markers on that journey, but it they're always
not about us necessarily individually, but all always
about us in relationship. And that makes me think about
jellyfish. So I have two favorite creatures in this
world. One is slime mold. Slime molds, my favorite creature and
my second favorite creature is jellyfish. When jellyfish are
bonded, okay? And I'm gonna, I'm using air quotes, each cell
comes out individually, and those cells then come together,
like, like this, like one of those cells sends out a signal,
and all the other cells come around it. And what organ they
develop, what part of the jellyfish they come they become,
has to do with where they are in relationship to the other cells.
So they can be a lot of things, but what they become actually
has to do with what what the other cells are around them. And
they they form a jellyfish, y'all is super cool and like
sometimes I think about the body of Christ like that, right? We
we are things but and we have different capacities and
different things we could be. But it actually what helps us
know what we're becoming and the trajectory that's supposed to
take is the community around us. The community around us helps
craft us, helps determine what part we are in the body of
Christ. So we need that aspect. So in community, we discern
calling, and I just love that God created that way. We don't
actually have to go on this journey all by ourselves to find
it on. You know, some guru on a mountain top or in a cave
somewhere, right? It's, it's not a solo journey. He binds us to
each other because we can't actually, because here's why, we
can't actually live out that purpose by ourself, either. So
the community is both the place that that is discerned out of,
and then the community gets to receive that calling and receive
that gift and receive that capacity. If it's just by
ourself, then what even is the purpose of it? Right? We're
alone and figuring it out, and we're alone and executing it.
And so God knits us together from the very beginning, because
it's both the source of the discernment and the recipient of
our gift.
Chris: So talk a little bit about character. We're talking
about community. We're forming our identity in community. And
then all of a sudden, the third C is character. And I can't
remember if Jake, you define that or not.
Jacob: Yeah. I mean, I think, like what we're talking about
there is your character is your collect, a collection of values
and behavior. That you've developed that kind of are an
anchor or a center. For you, what Jesse is talking about is
like, when all we do is help people develop a sense of
calling out of their skills, none of that is anchored in a in
a in a compass. And so we're releasing people into leadership
positions who haven't developed character, they don't have, like
a an anchor point that's formed out of community that can be
problematic. And so I so for us, character is that beginning to
to be shaped and honed around a set of values and behaviors that
that you've developed in in in that relational discernment
process. So
Jessie Cruickshank: like when I first went in a minute doing
things in the name of God, which is a terrifying idea, I had
heard that most people fail out of that because they they don't
have character, right? They get promoted to a place. They say,
quote, you get promoted to a place, your character can't keep
you. And I was like, Well, that sounds awful. And then I just
hurt everybody, right? I don't, I don't want to be responsible
for things I'm just gonna screw up. And so I made like, a
determination for myself that I would always let my character
through, like I would always let my character be out loud, and I
would let my character lead the way. Because if everybody saw me
and saw who I really, really was. Then we would all eat, we
would all be on the same page on whether or not I could do the
thing or not, like, whether or not I was gonna be successful,
whether or not I was ready. Like, there was no fake it till
you make it. I don't want the job if I'm just gonna screw it
up, right? I don't want the responsibility if I can't do it.
So I I was like, I'm gonna talk out loud, I'm going to show
people my heart, the gross, the good, the bad, the ugly, and
will when I'm ready. We'll all know it, or when you know and if
there's a thing in me that needs to be shaped, we'll all know it.
So I really leaned into that process of my character being
formed and assessed by the community as a safety mechanism,
both for my soul and for the lives of others. So that was,
like, one of, that's, like, one of my convictions about how to
live in this
Chris: world. No, that's good, as opposed to, I think a lot of
churches like a needs assessment or a skill assessment, and then,
okay, wow, you're really good with kids. We're gonna throw you
in the nursery for five years, as opposed to something like
that, and never have a break, right, right? There's no end
time. You're here in purgatory of kids church for the rest of
your life. Then finally, we get to the fourth step, the fourth
C, which is calling. So we've already got Christ as our
center. We've got our identity, kind of developed by the
community that we have around us. We have our character.
We've, you know, kind of the the flagpoles that we base our life
and our decisions on. And then finally, step four is like, Oh,
let's see what God has called you to do.
Jessie Cruickshank: So people define that differently, right?
I mean, just, just, just to acknowledge that, like there's
purpose, there's anointing, there's calling, there's
assignment. These are all different. These are all words
in this area that that people will have their own definition
of and understand how they use them. I think about calling as
as assignment, and that it is seasonal. So just just for me, I
don't think about the one thing put on earth to do like I think
that's that's too high stakes. It's too narrow. So what,
however you want to define this, if we can just acknowledge that,
that there's a journey to it, that there's change to it, that
there's what's right for this year in this moment of my life,
and then there's what's right for you know me 10 years from
now. So however you want to define that, that's kind of how
I think about this. Because we need to understand, what is God
wanting us to do right now? What is what is God? How does our
identity make a difference in this world right now? And the
community support that the community help us think about
that our character be refined so we can do that less harmfully
and more life giving for others, and that that's not just, that's
just not everything, right? I like to think that, like, right
now, none of us are going to be astronauts. Like, that's not an
option for our future. Okay? So none of us are going to have
that as a calling, so we don't actually have to train for that.
And yet, in church world or faith communities or
discipleship stuff, we're like, oh, I don't know. I don't know
what to do. So we're gonna, we're gonna try to help you do
everything, or we're gonna train you to do nothing. Like, like,
instead of saying, hey, what do you feel like God is asking of
you, how can we partner then in helping you gain some competency
that get equipped? Let's, let's pull money and send you to
seminary. Let's pull money and help you start that nonprofit.
Let's, let's use our resources as a community to support the.
Whatever being it looks like for you to be competent in the thing
God is asking you to do. So I just, I just think, we can make
it. We can either make it so mystical that it becomes lame
and like, I don't know, uninspiring. Oh, man, I heard
the other thing. What's my purpose in this world? Well, I
don't know. Like, we make it we make it too much. And so then
our reaction is to make it nothing. Instead of going, what
is God asking me to do right now in this season of my life? And
how do I, how has my community come alongside me to help me do
that? Well?
Chris: Well, I guess we have some breaking news. I had
initially spent a significant amount of money on Space Camp
2025, on the to be an astronaut, but Jesse, Dream Crusher, I
guess I'll cancel that ticket. Just cancel right now. No, I was
thinking about get a refund. Buddy, get a refund. I have
until January to make a final decision. I thought about what
you were just saying, like, for a long time. I worked at a
church with Jake and Jacob. Sorry, he's older now. They put
me in kids church, and I didn't really or they put me in, yeah,
kids church, like, middle school, high school, I didn't
really know what I was doing. Probably wasn't very well
educated in it, kind of just skating through and one of the
district presidents said, You know what, you should go to
seminary? And I was like, Yeah, I don't want to do that. And I
don't really want to be a pastor. And then a year later,
Jake and I went through the same seminary program. But it was
interesting, like, after I decided, You know what, I'm I'm
actually enjoying working with these youth. I'm actually
enjoying what I'm doing. I should be better equipped than I
saw. The need for more competency in the field so I
could, like, not that I have all the answers, but I needed a
couple. And so talk about that, Jacob. Like the competency is
the final part of this. What do you what? What are we saying
there? Like, is it competency? Is that education? What? What is
that? I
Jacob: think it's just getting better at stuff. That's really
what we mean there. So, like you said, it's honing the craft,
it's developing skills, it's and so it it's different depending
on who you are and what you're doing, but it is about continual
improvement and developing your gifts and talents to fit the
calling that God has given.
Chris: So I guess that could look different in a lot of
different people like you know, right?
Jacob: Yeah, and so sometimes it's education, sometimes it's
interpersonal skills, sometimes it's organizational skills, but
it's about being able to to to develop its personal
development, for the sake of calling, right and and I think,
like this conversation, it doesn't only apply to church
settings. I think it's actually even easier to imagine in a in,
like a professional setting, there's an intuition that it's
like, if you've got a supervisor at work who says, How can I help
you do what you want to do, rather than just, how do I make
you do the things I need you to do? The first one's better,
right? So, like, if, if it's just, oh, look, you're, you're
really good at sales, let me make you a sales manager. Well,
I don't really like managing people. I just like sales.
Chris: That's classic. That's a classic. I worked at T Mobile,
and every time when I was in business to business, sales,
they would always take the number one salesperson and make
them a manager, and they would always fail. Like, that's not
the same skill set. Just because you're a good salesperson
doesn't mean you can manage people. And I was like, right?
Yeah, totally different.
Jacob: And then again, is like, if you talk to the leading
salesperson and say, Do you want to be a manager, they'd probably
say, No, I want to be a person or like your to your point, if
they do say no, I do want to be a manager. Well, okay, how are
you relating to your coworkers? Have you developed the requisite
character to be a good Exactly. So in that case, manager is the
calling we're talking about, right? And so, so it's about
discovering whether you're actually shaped to be a manager
before we put you in the
Chris: position. No. And it's, it's so funny, like the things
that make a good salesperson. You're a lone wolf. You're out
there chasing your own leads. You're doing all that like you
don't care if your fellow salespeople are doing well or
not, and then all of a sudden they're like, You should be the
coach of this team when your number one motivator is your own
commission. Like, Okay, never mind. I'm done with that. I'm
just saying, I spent a lot of years in that field, and I saw
Jacob: it, yeah, but so then notice how we do that in church,
though, right? It's like, oh, you feel called to ministry.
Let's send you to seminary, which is a competency writer,
rather than saying, Oh, well, who have you discipled? How have
you? How have you been, how have you been engaged in ministry in
your existing community? So like we jump to competency rather
than anchoring in community. In character, and so I think, and
that's kind of, I mean, I think that's bringing all of these
topics together, is that's the disparity we're trying to
identify here. Because
Jessie Cruickshank: at the end of the day, the goal isn't that
we don't the goal of the kingdom work here isn't that we have a
bunch of pastors right the end of the day, the goal is actually
that every person who calls himself as a follower of Jesus
and has made that commitment, is living as a missionary. And we
don't actually need pastors, because, look, I'm just hurt
somebody's heart, right there I have. I'm an ordained minister,
right? I'm part of, I'm part of the problem, but that we all are
actually doing it, and I can pastor you, and you can pastor
me, and we can support each other. We can have our faith
community that is so healthy, it's like a bunch of adult
children when when mom and dad aren't there, and we can figure
it out, and we could get it done. So the goal is not
everyone's a pastor. The goal is that everyone's a missionary in
the world, in their everyday life, and we can do that well
enough as peers, as brothers and sisters, that we don't have to
have someone come in and be the boss of all of us. Wow, that's
actually, you know what?
Chris: I think we cut it right there. You cannot. You can't end
it any better than that. That's great. Jesse, you've, you've won
today's podcast. Okay, uh, everybody. Thank you so much.
Wait, what's
Unknown: my price? 20.
Chris: You just won 10% off your next Chick fil A purchase, Jake
will send you that coupon off of his app anyway. Thank you so
much for joining us in the ordinary discipleship podcast.
It has been a blast. Make sure that you review this. Give us
five stars and write a review. Help other people find this
podcast. Thank you guys. And if you want to learn more about
what is going on over at whoology Jesse, tell
Jessie Cruickshank: them you can always go to hoology.co. Our
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Chris: with that, you get Jesse's cell phone and home
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okay, guys, thank you so much for joining us. God bless. We'll
talk to you soon. Bye, bye. You.