1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,360 Chris: Welcome to another episode of ordinary discipleship 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,240 podcast. My name is Chris. There's Jacob, and, of course, 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:11,160 Jesse. And today we are talking about something in discipleship. 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,040 You know, a lot of times Jacob brought this up before this 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,820 podcast. You go to a new member class, right? And you're sitting 6 00:00:17,820 --> 00:00:22,700 there and they give you the quiz where you figure out, this is 7 00:00:22,700 --> 00:00:25,400 where I'm gifted, and then they figure out where they can plug 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,400 you into the church. And I'm wondering if that's the right 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,940 way. Well, you know, a lot of times we figure out, okay, if 10 00:00:31,940 --> 00:00:35,180 I'm good at this, if I'm good at some kind of talent, let me be 11 00:00:35,180 --> 00:00:39,860 the best in this church at that talent. But maybe, just maybe, 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,860 it's in community where we really discover, I our identity. 13 00:00:45,340 --> 00:00:50,200 Jesse has spoken about this. Jacob spoken about this. I've 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,060 listened about this, and I'm excited because there are 5c 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,420 that you're going to want to walk away with. We're going to 16 00:00:58,420 --> 00:01:01,500 define them. We're going to hear a story about jellyfish today. I 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,300 mean, we've got it all packed in in 20 minutes. Jesse go, Oh, 18 00:01:06,540 --> 00:01:10,680 Jessie Cruickshank: I love it. So when I do training with 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,580 churches, one of the tools that I use that that is reflected 20 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:18,240 back to me to be one of the most useful ones, is this five Cs. 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,240 Now, I didn't, I didn't write this, and there's like 1,000,005 22 00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:23,360 C's out there. So I'll tell you what this is. But this comes 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,660 from Malcolm Weber, and it's this idea that the discipleship 24 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:29,540 journey, or if we're going to look at like scale, from the 25 00:01:29,540 --> 00:01:34,460 inside out, goes Christ community, character, calling 26 00:01:34,460 --> 00:01:37,640 competency, and that this is an order. It's an order in which 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,780 you build right? We start on Christ, we center on Christ. And 28 00:01:40,780 --> 00:01:43,960 that is, that is our core Christ. Likeness is the goal. 29 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,560 And then around Christ, we form community. So we have a 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,980 community of faith, and it's in the community that our character 31 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:53,560 is developed, right? Character isn't developed outside of 32 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,440 community. Character is developed in community. We've 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,380 we've talked about that on a different podcast. And then out 34 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:02,940 of that, as your character is formed, we begin as a community 35 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:06,840 to start to discern calling, and then we can be equipped, or 36 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,980 become more competent towards that calling. So that's kind of 37 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:13,320 like the big overview. But we're gonna, we're gonna unpack a 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,100 couple of these. 39 00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:18,480 Chris: Okay, well, let's unpack. I mean, here's the suitcase. Do 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,080 you wanna unpack it? Right? Who wants to unpack this? Well, 41 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,500 Jacob: I think so those words that Jesse used could all mean 42 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:27,980 different things in different contexts. So we'll like, walk 43 00:02:27,980 --> 00:02:31,580 back through them for one more second. Christ, we kind of know 44 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:36,920 is Jesus, right? So what we're saying is like the formation of 45 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:41,140 your identity begins in Christ, and as we find our place in 46 00:02:41,140 --> 00:02:45,820 Christ. We discover that we're a part of a community. We are one 47 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:49,600 together with all those who are in Christ. And as we've talked 48 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,360 about in other episodes, being in community with one another 49 00:02:52,420 --> 00:02:56,920 can be uncomfortable. And so it's actually in bouncing off of 50 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:00,520 other people, reflecting off of other people, that we begin to 51 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:08,280 form our character, who we are. We are shaped and we're refined, 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,420 and it's then, through that refinement, discovering the way 53 00:03:12,420 --> 00:03:15,480 that we serve and are served by others, that that's how we 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,620 discover calling. Once we've settled into who we're called to 55 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:22,280 be and what we're called to do, then we can get better at it. 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,940 That's developing competency. And what why Jesse is saying 57 00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:28,820 this is most helpful is because, and what Chris was saying at the 58 00:03:28,820 --> 00:03:31,760 opening with like a gifts assessment is that tends to say, 59 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:35,180 Hey, what are you good at? Let's just help you major on what 60 00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:37,640 you're good at. Let's just double down on your skills, and 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,740 that'll be your calling. But it neglects this identity formation 62 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:45,820 that starts in Christ, continues in community and is refined as 63 00:03:45,820 --> 00:03:47,080 you develop your character. 64 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:49,720 Jessie Cruickshank: And at worst, we end up with like this 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,440 pathway that we can see sometimes, where we take a gifts 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,000 assessment, go to seminary, and we gain greater competencies, 67 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:02,280 but then we're like, oh, out of what I'm good at, I'll discern 68 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,720 my calling. And we never actually get to character. So we 69 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:11,580 end up with well trained people who may be in the right like 70 00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:16,860 calling, gifting, vocation, but they they have no character. 71 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,800 Their character is not Christ likeness. And because we didn't 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,900 take the formation pathway in the right order, we came from 73 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:30,140 the back end thinking, Oh, well, if being if knowing what I'm 74 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:33,380 supposed to do and being good at it is the measure of success, we 75 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:37,400 just want to jump straight there, and we miss and neglect 76 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,680 that formational journey that actually has an order and a 77 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:42,640 pattern to it. 78 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,000 Chris: So yeah, maybe we talk a little bit more about the order 79 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:49,720 and the pattern of that. I mean, obviously you have to start off 80 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,480 with Christ in the middle, but then speak a little bit about 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,360 community. What's that look like? What's that mean? This is 82 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,780 different than what I've been through. For sure, it makes 83 00:04:58,780 --> 00:05:02,220 sense that our identity. Is formed in community. But are you 84 00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:05,700 talking about this from, like, the perspective of a church, 85 00:05:05,940 --> 00:05:10,260 like this is how we should do discipleship, or as from the 86 00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:13,920 perspective of an individual? I'm kind of confused on that. I 87 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,800 Jacob: think it's true of all people, that we find out who we 88 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:21,260 are by by reflecting off of others. So I actually like, I 89 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:24,620 don't really know completely like, if I'm only looking at 90 00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:28,040 myself, I only have one perspective, but when I know how 91 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,880 you perceive me, that reveals different things about myself 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,240 and about finding my place in community. I mean, think about 93 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:39,200 like your family of origin, right? So it's kind of like most 94 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,460 people know birth order makes a difference, yeah, and that's 95 00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:46,900 because the role you play in your family can be determined by 96 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,140 the birth order, and we all kind of find different places to 97 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:53,560 occupy in that family system growing up, and that's how our 98 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,640 identity is formed. So like that family of origin conversation is 99 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,040 a conversation about a community that forms in a household that 100 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,700 helps you to shape who you are, for better or for worse. Now, 101 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,580 what we're saying for a church is that church being centered on 102 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:12,420 Christ allows us to form our identity in Christ as we all are 103 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:13,620 centered on him together. 104 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:15,600 Jessie Cruickshank: So some of the neuroscience there is that 105 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:18,480 we know each other by the way that we interact with other 106 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,100 people like because of the way the brain forms, the way the 107 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:26,240 because of the way that identity is is crafted and formed in our 108 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,780 souls and our personhood. We have to have other people to do 109 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:32,300 that. At the beginning, we have to have other people to feed us 110 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,960 and to change our nappy and to like, clean us up and all of 111 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,320 those things. Then we have other people, and they name us, then 112 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,240 they model for us, like what to do and how to get along in this 113 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,420 world. I mean, as a species, we have an extraordinarily, 114 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:50,620 ridiculously long development, and that's because there's 115 00:06:50,620 --> 00:06:53,260 supposed to be this community around us that has helped 116 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:56,800 growing, shaping and forming us, and that's how the brain is is 117 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,680 molded into, like, where we're going. And that journey actually 118 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,440 doesn't end. There's not like one thing you're supposed to be 119 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,100 and do in this world. There's many things that you're supposed 120 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:12,000 to be and do. And so that that journey, it's a journey of 121 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,160 identity, and there are these different markers, right? 122 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,100 Because, you know, I'm a kid, then I'm a teenager, I'm a 123 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:20,420 college graduate, and then I'm a, you know, I mean, I'm a 124 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:23,480 bride, and then I'm married, right? All of these things are 125 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,680 just different markers on that journey, but it they're always 126 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,320 not about us necessarily individually, but all always 127 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,980 about us in relationship. And that makes me think about 128 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:37,040 jellyfish. So I have two favorite creatures in this 129 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,080 world. One is slime mold. Slime molds, my favorite creature and 130 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,160 my second favorite creature is jellyfish. When jellyfish are 131 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,600 bonded, okay? And I'm gonna, I'm using air quotes, each cell 132 00:07:49,780 --> 00:07:54,760 comes out individually, and those cells then come together, 133 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,760 like, like this, like one of those cells sends out a signal, 134 00:07:58,060 --> 00:08:01,620 and all the other cells come around it. And what organ they 135 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:05,700 develop, what part of the jellyfish they come they become, 136 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,380 has to do with where they are in relationship to the other cells. 137 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,360 So they can be a lot of things, but what they become actually 138 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,720 has to do with what what the other cells are around them. And 139 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,480 they they form a jellyfish, y'all is super cool and like 140 00:08:23,540 --> 00:08:26,960 sometimes I think about the body of Christ like that, right? We 141 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,220 we are things but and we have different capacities and 142 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,460 different things we could be. But it actually what helps us 143 00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:38,360 know what we're becoming and the trajectory that's supposed to 144 00:08:38,540 --> 00:08:42,580 take is the community around us. The community around us helps 145 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,500 craft us, helps determine what part we are in the body of 146 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:53,260 Christ. So we need that aspect. So in community, we discern 147 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:59,260 calling, and I just love that God created that way. We don't 148 00:08:59,260 --> 00:09:02,640 actually have to go on this journey all by ourselves to find 149 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,000 it on. You know, some guru on a mountain top or in a cave 150 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,560 somewhere, right? It's, it's not a solo journey. He binds us to 151 00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:13,080 each other because we can't actually, because here's why, we 152 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,620 can't actually live out that purpose by ourself, either. So 153 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:20,040 the community is both the place that that is discerned out of, 154 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,140 and then the community gets to receive that calling and receive 155 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:27,500 that gift and receive that capacity. If it's just by 156 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,900 ourself, then what even is the purpose of it? Right? We're 157 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:32,660 alone and figuring it out, and we're alone and executing it. 158 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,380 And so God knits us together from the very beginning, because 159 00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:39,800 it's both the source of the discernment and the recipient of 160 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:40,340 our gift. 161 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,760 Chris: So talk a little bit about character. We're talking 162 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,720 about community. We're forming our identity in community. And 163 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,140 then all of a sudden, the third C is character. And I can't 164 00:09:50,140 --> 00:09:52,360 remember if Jake, you define that or not. 165 00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:54,460 Jacob: Yeah. I mean, I think, like what we're talking about 166 00:09:54,460 --> 00:09:59,080 there is your character is your collect, a collection of values 167 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:02,580 and behavior. That you've developed that kind of are an 168 00:10:02,580 --> 00:10:06,300 anchor or a center. For you, what Jesse is talking about is 169 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:09,660 like, when all we do is help people develop a sense of 170 00:10:09,660 --> 00:10:13,860 calling out of their skills, none of that is anchored in a in 171 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:18,780 a in a compass. And so we're releasing people into leadership 172 00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:21,620 positions who haven't developed character, they don't have, like 173 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:25,880 a an anchor point that's formed out of community that can be 174 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,080 problematic. And so I so for us, character is that beginning to 175 00:10:30,380 --> 00:10:36,860 to be shaped and honed around a set of values and behaviors that 176 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:39,740 that you've developed in in in that relational discernment 177 00:10:39,740 --> 00:10:40,540 process. So 178 00:10:40,540 --> 00:10:42,700 Jessie Cruickshank: like when I first went in a minute doing 179 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:45,460 things in the name of God, which is a terrifying idea, I had 180 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:51,700 heard that most people fail out of that because they they don't 181 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:54,520 have character, right? They get promoted to a place. They say, 182 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,980 quote, you get promoted to a place, your character can't keep 183 00:10:56,980 --> 00:10:59,980 you. And I was like, Well, that sounds awful. And then I just 184 00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:02,760 hurt everybody, right? I don't, I don't want to be responsible 185 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,780 for things I'm just gonna screw up. And so I made like, a 186 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:11,160 determination for myself that I would always let my character 187 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,280 through, like I would always let my character be out loud, and I 188 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,760 would let my character lead the way. Because if everybody saw me 189 00:11:18,420 --> 00:11:22,100 and saw who I really, really was. Then we would all eat, we 190 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,860 would all be on the same page on whether or not I could do the 191 00:11:24,860 --> 00:11:28,340 thing or not, like, whether or not I was gonna be successful, 192 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:31,100 whether or not I was ready. Like, there was no fake it till 193 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:33,680 you make it. I don't want the job if I'm just gonna screw it 194 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,560 up, right? I don't want the responsibility if I can't do it. 195 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,320 So I I was like, I'm gonna talk out loud, I'm going to show 196 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,240 people my heart, the gross, the good, the bad, the ugly, and 197 00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:51,220 will when I'm ready. We'll all know it, or when you know and if 198 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:54,520 there's a thing in me that needs to be shaped, we'll all know it. 199 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:58,240 So I really leaned into that process of my character being 200 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,580 formed and assessed by the community as a safety mechanism, 201 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,780 both for my soul and for the lives of others. So that was, 202 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:09,420 like, one of, that's, like, one of my convictions about how to 203 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:09,900 live in this 204 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:13,560 Chris: world. No, that's good, as opposed to, I think a lot of 205 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:18,480 churches like a needs assessment or a skill assessment, and then, 206 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:21,320 okay, wow, you're really good with kids. We're gonna throw you 207 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,740 in the nursery for five years, as opposed to something like 208 00:12:24,740 --> 00:12:27,620 that, and never have a break, right, right? There's no end 209 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:31,640 time. You're here in purgatory of kids church for the rest of 210 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,140 your life. Then finally, we get to the fourth step, the fourth 211 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,980 C, which is calling. So we've already got Christ as our 212 00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:43,000 center. We've got our identity, kind of developed by the 213 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,880 community that we have around us. We have our character. 214 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,200 We've, you know, kind of the the flagpoles that we base our life 215 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,340 and our decisions on. And then finally, step four is like, Oh, 216 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,980 let's see what God has called you to do. 217 00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:59,260 Jessie Cruickshank: So people define that differently, right? 218 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:02,400 I mean, just, just, just to acknowledge that, like there's 219 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,300 purpose, there's anointing, there's calling, there's 220 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,740 assignment. These are all different. These are all words 221 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:14,340 in this area that that people will have their own definition 222 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:19,200 of and understand how they use them. I think about calling as 223 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:25,460 as assignment, and that it is seasonal. So just just for me, I 224 00:13:25,460 --> 00:13:29,000 don't think about the one thing put on earth to do like I think 225 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,940 that's that's too high stakes. It's too narrow. So what, 226 00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:35,960 however you want to define this, if we can just acknowledge that, 227 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,380 that there's a journey to it, that there's change to it, that 228 00:13:39,380 --> 00:13:42,400 there's what's right for this year in this moment of my life, 229 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,800 and then there's what's right for you know me 10 years from 230 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,680 now. So however you want to define that, that's kind of how 231 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:53,560 I think about this. Because we need to understand, what is God 232 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,740 wanting us to do right now? What is what is God? How does our 233 00:13:56,740 --> 00:14:01,320 identity make a difference in this world right now? And the 234 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,380 community support that the community help us think about 235 00:14:04,380 --> 00:14:09,660 that our character be refined so we can do that less harmfully 236 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:13,800 and more life giving for others, and that that's not just, that's 237 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,620 just not everything, right? I like to think that, like, right 238 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:20,600 now, none of us are going to be astronauts. Like, that's not an 239 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,280 option for our future. Okay? So none of us are going to have 240 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,100 that as a calling, so we don't actually have to train for that. 241 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:31,280 And yet, in church world or faith communities or 242 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,760 discipleship stuff, we're like, oh, I don't know. I don't know 243 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,980 what to do. So we're gonna, we're gonna try to help you do 244 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,420 everything, or we're gonna train you to do nothing. Like, like, 245 00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:44,200 instead of saying, hey, what do you feel like God is asking of 246 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,760 you, how can we partner then in helping you gain some competency 247 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,180 that get equipped? Let's, let's pull money and send you to 248 00:14:52,180 --> 00:14:55,780 seminary. Let's pull money and help you start that nonprofit. 249 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,440 Let's, let's use our resources as a community to support the. 250 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,920 Whatever being it looks like for you to be competent in the thing 251 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,480 God is asking you to do. So I just, I just think, we can make 252 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,320 it. We can either make it so mystical that it becomes lame 253 00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:17,160 and like, I don't know, uninspiring. Oh, man, I heard 254 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,500 the other thing. What's my purpose in this world? Well, I 255 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:23,540 don't know. Like, we make it we make it too much. And so then 256 00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:26,540 our reaction is to make it nothing. Instead of going, what 257 00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:29,900 is God asking me to do right now in this season of my life? And 258 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:33,680 how do I, how has my community come alongside me to help me do 259 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,280 that? Well? 260 00:15:35,060 --> 00:15:37,880 Chris: Well, I guess we have some breaking news. I had 261 00:15:38,180 --> 00:15:42,400 initially spent a significant amount of money on Space Camp 262 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:48,940 2025, on the to be an astronaut, but Jesse, Dream Crusher, I 263 00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:53,500 guess I'll cancel that ticket. Just cancel right now. No, I was 264 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:56,440 thinking about get a refund. Buddy, get a refund. I have 265 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:02,100 until January to make a final decision. I thought about what 266 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:06,480 you were just saying, like, for a long time. I worked at a 267 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,860 church with Jake and Jacob. Sorry, he's older now. They put 268 00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:13,440 me in kids church, and I didn't really or they put me in, yeah, 269 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,840 kids church, like, middle school, high school, I didn't 270 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,660 really know what I was doing. Probably wasn't very well 271 00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:23,300 educated in it, kind of just skating through and one of the 272 00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,580 district presidents said, You know what, you should go to 273 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:28,340 seminary? And I was like, Yeah, I don't want to do that. And I 274 00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:30,980 don't really want to be a pastor. And then a year later, 275 00:16:30,980 --> 00:16:35,120 Jake and I went through the same seminary program. But it was 276 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,260 interesting, like, after I decided, You know what, I'm I'm 277 00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:42,640 actually enjoying working with these youth. I'm actually 278 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,060 enjoying what I'm doing. I should be better equipped than I 279 00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:50,080 saw. The need for more competency in the field so I 280 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,840 could, like, not that I have all the answers, but I needed a 281 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,000 couple. And so talk about that, Jacob. Like the competency is 282 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,700 the final part of this. What do you what? What are we saying 283 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:07,620 there? Like, is it competency? Is that education? What? What is 284 00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:07,920 that? I 285 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,380 Jacob: think it's just getting better at stuff. That's really 286 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:14,400 what we mean there. So, like you said, it's honing the craft, 287 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,240 it's developing skills, it's and so it it's different depending 288 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,340 on who you are and what you're doing, but it is about continual 289 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:26,840 improvement and developing your gifts and talents to fit the 290 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,000 calling that God has given. 291 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,800 Chris: So I guess that could look different in a lot of 292 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,780 different people like you know, right? 293 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,180 Jacob: Yeah, and so sometimes it's education, sometimes it's 294 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:39,380 interpersonal skills, sometimes it's organizational skills, but 295 00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:43,720 it's about being able to to to develop its personal 296 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,620 development, for the sake of calling, right and and I think, 297 00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:52,780 like this conversation, it doesn't only apply to church 298 00:17:52,780 --> 00:17:57,340 settings. I think it's actually even easier to imagine in a in, 299 00:17:57,340 --> 00:18:00,900 like a professional setting, there's an intuition that it's 300 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:04,560 like, if you've got a supervisor at work who says, How can I help 301 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:09,180 you do what you want to do, rather than just, how do I make 302 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:12,960 you do the things I need you to do? The first one's better, 303 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:16,740 right? So, like, if, if it's just, oh, look, you're, you're 304 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:19,020 really good at sales, let me make you a sales manager. Well, 305 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:21,440 I don't really like managing people. I just like sales. 306 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,500 Chris: That's classic. That's a classic. I worked at T Mobile, 307 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:28,040 and every time when I was in business to business, sales, 308 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:31,040 they would always take the number one salesperson and make 309 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,220 them a manager, and they would always fail. Like, that's not 310 00:18:34,220 --> 00:18:36,920 the same skill set. Just because you're a good salesperson 311 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,980 doesn't mean you can manage people. And I was like, right? 312 00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:40,940 Yeah, totally different. 313 00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:43,360 Jacob: And then again, is like, if you talk to the leading 314 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,000 salesperson and say, Do you want to be a manager, they'd probably 315 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,580 say, No, I want to be a person or like your to your point, if 316 00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:54,880 they do say no, I do want to be a manager. Well, okay, how are 317 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,060 you relating to your coworkers? Have you developed the requisite 318 00:18:58,060 --> 00:19:02,220 character to be a good Exactly. So in that case, manager is the 319 00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:06,060 calling we're talking about, right? And so, so it's about 320 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,840 discovering whether you're actually shaped to be a manager 321 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:10,980 before we put you in the 322 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:13,800 Chris: position. No. And it's, it's so funny, like the things 323 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,320 that make a good salesperson. You're a lone wolf. You're out 324 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,960 there chasing your own leads. You're doing all that like you 325 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,680 don't care if your fellow salespeople are doing well or 326 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,440 not, and then all of a sudden they're like, You should be the 327 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,160 coach of this team when your number one motivator is your own 328 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,920 commission. Like, Okay, never mind. I'm done with that. I'm 329 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,980 just saying, I spent a lot of years in that field, and I saw 330 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:37,400 Jacob: it, yeah, but so then notice how we do that in church, 331 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,620 though, right? It's like, oh, you feel called to ministry. 332 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,780 Let's send you to seminary, which is a competency writer, 333 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,420 rather than saying, Oh, well, who have you discipled? How have 334 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:53,200 you? How have you been, how have you been engaged in ministry in 335 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,720 your existing community? So like we jump to competency rather 336 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,220 than anchoring in community. In character, and so I think, and 337 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:04,920 that's kind of, I mean, I think that's bringing all of these 338 00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:08,640 topics together, is that's the disparity we're trying to 339 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:10,020 identify here. Because 340 00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:12,000 Jessie Cruickshank: at the end of the day, the goal isn't that 341 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:14,820 we don't the goal of the kingdom work here isn't that we have a 342 00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:18,300 bunch of pastors right the end of the day, the goal is actually 343 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:22,220 that every person who calls himself as a follower of Jesus 344 00:20:22,220 --> 00:20:25,760 and has made that commitment, is living as a missionary. And we 345 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,120 don't actually need pastors, because, look, I'm just hurt 346 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,540 somebody's heart, right there I have. I'm an ordained minister, 347 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:36,320 right? I'm part of, I'm part of the problem, but that we all are 348 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,560 actually doing it, and I can pastor you, and you can pastor 349 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,800 me, and we can support each other. We can have our faith 350 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,400 community that is so healthy, it's like a bunch of adult 351 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,000 children when when mom and dad aren't there, and we can figure 352 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,060 it out, and we could get it done. So the goal is not 353 00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:59,020 everyone's a pastor. The goal is that everyone's a missionary in 354 00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:02,340 the world, in their everyday life, and we can do that well 355 00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:05,460 enough as peers, as brothers and sisters, that we don't have to 356 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:08,580 have someone come in and be the boss of all of us. Wow, that's 357 00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:09,480 actually, you know what? 358 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,620 Chris: I think we cut it right there. You cannot. You can't end 359 00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:16,680 it any better than that. That's great. Jesse, you've, you've won 360 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,300 today's podcast. Okay, uh, everybody. Thank you so much. 361 00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:20,960 Wait, what's 362 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,140 Unknown: my price? 20. 363 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:28,520 Chris: You just won 10% off your next Chick fil A purchase, Jake 364 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,560 will send you that coupon off of his app anyway. Thank you so 365 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,400 much for joining us in the ordinary discipleship podcast. 366 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,920 It has been a blast. Make sure that you review this. Give us 367 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,960 five stars and write a review. Help other people find this 368 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,560 podcast. Thank you guys. And if you want to learn more about 369 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,040 what is going on over at whoology Jesse, tell 370 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,500 Jessie Cruickshank: them you can always go to hoology.co. Our 371 00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:00,360 Website, W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y, sign up to get the newsletter so 372 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,960 that you are never with always here. You are never without 373 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,300 information of whatever we're offering and whatever's going 374 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:06,600 on. And 375 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,240 Chris: with that, you get Jesse's cell phone and home 376 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,540 phone number so you can call her at any time. That's not true, 377 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,200 okay, guys, thank you so much for joining us. God bless. We'll 378 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,340 talk to you soon. Bye, bye. You.