Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership podcast, where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Hello everyone. Welcome to Love, sex, and Leadership. My name is Aaron Kleinerman and I am excited to have a friend, Emil Seinfeld here today, who is a human behavior specialist, uh, working with the emotional body. We've known each other kind of on and off through the years through a couple different threads and areas, and one of the things I love about having this podcast is I get to have Epic conversations with humans I admire and appreciate the work they're doing and uh especially around human behavior and maximizing human potential and really set me up in the world. And when I see this uh brother and the work he's bringing into the world, I have admiration and appreciation and respect for, you know, how you're showing up. So welcome to the show, bro. Thanks, bro. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. And where are you right now? Right now I'm back in Bali, Indonesia. Nice, and Bali is, uh, Bali's home for you? Yeah, Bali's been home for the last, it's actually gonna be 10 years now. Well, yeah. for Bali because you got so many people passing through, so. Yeah, I'm uh just finishing my, my house up in, in Moondo right now. So I, uh, Moon is super nice. Love, love. So for those of you that, you know, people that don't know you, you share a little bit about yourself and the work you do in the world and um what kind of qualifies you or brings you out into this um world of human potential around human behavior and and how you show up. We'd love to hear a little bit more. OK, great. So, uh, yeah, for those who don't know me, um, I specialize in human behavior and I work with high achievers and high performers around the world. And the reason why I chose this field is because one, I'm a high achiever. I was always having these super high standards, always having to be the best, um. And Where that came from was, was from not actually feeling enough. Um, from a father that didn't. Know how to express um love, didn't know how to express emotional intelligence from. The feeling of not feeling validated. So As I grew up, um, as a child, you know, being extremely competitive, playing basketball, um, and any, anything that I did, I had to win, but I didn't understand why I had to win. And what I realized, um, obviously later on going through the years was was. My pattern to try and feel seen and loved. Mm. And when you think about that, it's like, why do we do what we do? And I would always ask myself these questions and like, why, why do I do what I do? How come I'm trying to do this? What, what is, what am I getting from this? And I would always ask myself some deeper questions, Aaron. And You know, my mother actually is, uh, she's a psychologist now, and she's been studying my whole life, psychology, but she was a nurse before. So I grew up with books around me with these kinds of questions. Um, hence what probably sparked more of the, the deeper questions and, and reading, you know, like, I remember reading a book. It was one of the first, like, self-help books I picked up. It was on my mom's shelf, and it was, it was something that I think it was called, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. you know, you know that book, it's, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's such a, uh, you know. It sold millions of copies and stuff. And when I was looking at this don't sweat the small stuff, I was like, I would always sweat the small stuff, you know. Yeah, it, it, it was always like. Reactive to certain things, you know, if certain people were um not treating me in a standard that I thought. I would think that I had boundaries and I would cut them off. But it was not, it was not effective in the end, you know? So, I started studying more and, you know, at 21, my mom said to me, you know, I, I want you to come to this thing called Landmark Forum. You know what Landmark is? It's like a. Yeah, so I did that when I was 21 and I was like, yeah, why not? I was open to self-development. I was uh Didn't know what I was gonna get myself into, but. 20 years later. I'm, I'm now still in the field of, of self-development, you know, which is, which is nuts when I think about it. I'm like, it's been 20 years since I did that, my first seminar. Mhm. Um, and I'm still to this day, still, still consistently learning, still consistently growing, still consistently peeling the, the onion back of my own layers, um. But what fascinates me the most about it is, is seeing why we do what we do, and then also unpacking that and going to the core root of where it's coming from, where it's stemming from it, and realizing that we don't have to, to act from that space. That we have different ways to show up. We have different ways to express. And I think the biggest thing, what's alive for me right now, it's funny you asked me before, what's alive for you before we even jumped on. And I was like, I don't really know, but really, what's alive for me right now, when I think about it, is, is, is self-expression is, is how are we, as human beings, expressing ourselves out there, um, in the most authentic way we can, and what's stopping us? Because I feel that when we are fully authentic in our self-expression, this is when we're the most free. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, I know, I love, I love the background and what you're bringing in. Um, when it comes to self-expression. You know, and, uh, someone's authenticity they express and in your twenty-year journey, you know, what, uh, obviously there's consistencies of people getting their own way and not being able to have that expression, but if you were to go to that core route, you know, to summarize that place that what would that 21 year old, 21 year old, like what would Now you're, you know, 41 year old, I guess, or, um, you know, tell to that 21 year old about that self-expression, and what would his message be to, to support him in his journey to, to summarize the, the what you've been moving through. I would say to him Allow yourself to feel your emotions without judgment. I would say. How can you show up and speak your truth? And also have compassion for yourself at the same time. Mhm, mhm. I would say. How can you bring more love, um, and acceptance into your, into your world? Mhm mhm. So I, I, I love all three of these, and let's first tap into the emotional piece. So this is something, you know, as a male body in this world and, you know, I know you're working with a lot of high achieving males and working with a lot of high achieving males, and there's such a like difficult capacity for, I'm gonna to be specific about a male body to express, like unapologetically their emotions. What, what's been your journey with this and what has supported you to become more free in your emotional expression, and do you still notice times when you, when you, you hold back your emotions? Absolutely, it's also, but the thing is now, the thing with holding back emotions or even like subconsciously holding back, it's, it's more of a subconscious or unconscious thing, um. So let me go to the first part. The first part was. When you think about like how I started to allow myself. First comes awareness. I have to be firstly, I have to be aware first that I'm um I'm, I'm, there's a pattern going on. If I'm not um doing self-reflection work, maybe it's even meditating, journaling, um, paying attention to my thoughts on a daily manner. Like most of us go through the day and thoughts are just passing by and we're just going through it and that's just us. That's us, right? And this is just who I am, but it's not. You know, and What I had to understand was how conditioned I was, um, on how I received love, um, how I show up. If I act like this, that means I'm worthy of love. If I act like this, that means I'm accepted. And, and this is where the judgments have come from, because You know, my parents both come from Cape Town, South Africa. Um. They didn't, they left during the apartheid in, in Cape Town because they weren't paid the same amount of money. They'd probably get 10 times the amount less than some of those that was white. And so then moving to Australia to, to give their future kids, like I wasn't born yet, but my sister was 2, to give us a better life was Oh, I can imagine it was a hard thing back in the day. Imagine like, you're, you're showing up, you're doing the same thing, if not better, but you're not getting treated a certain way because of your, your skin color. So then that, there's money, there's, um, generational trauma that's been weaved in to this thing, you know, my, my dad never said I love you because he never heard it from his father. And so I had a problem with love. So This is where it all stems from, you know, and I'm grateful for that. But at the same time, it was one of the most painful things I had to go through in order to understand that um. I'm gonna start giving myself permission. I'm gonna start self validating myself and not waiting for him to do it because he didn't know how to do it. Right? Now, there was a time where I was constantly waiting for, for his approval. And I think a lot of men can relate to this, especially you, you as a men's coach, like, we're constantly waiting for our fathers to give us approval and validate us, and they've never been taught how to do that. And I had to go through it in a way where I, I remember this. I was. I did the Camino, you know, the Camino de Santiago, like the, the way? Yeah, in the north of Spain. Yeah, I did that with my father. And we walked for a month. And I remember one day I was listening to, uh, um, an audiobook by Eckhart Toll, and I think it was a new Earth, and he was saying something like, he's like, you're never gonna get the, the approval in the way that you want from your parents. And that brought so much fucking anger. And like, I was like, what? Like, I was, I was so pissed. I was so angry, and at the same time, I was like. He's right. I have to, I can't wait for him to give it to me in the way that I want it. That was also trapping me. So what I had to really learn to be like was. That was the first part, the, the, the awareness part of like, that's what I was still waiting for, even though I thought I was over it. I was like, I would already been like 10 years in the game, self-development, you know, I've done a lot of work. That still triggered me. Which means I have Peel back the layers of that and then that's when I was like I'm gonna start. Give myself validation. I start acknowledging myself. Now, the thing is, most high achievers, are high performers or people that have high standards. We don't give validation to ourselves, unless it's massive. We don't give praise and be like, unless we have done something huge. So the biggest problem with that is that we're always waiting until we do the big things. And we're missing out on all these small, intricate little things. And it is the small, intricate little things that make the big things. This is what real self-esteem, which builds real confidence, which builds trust with ourselves. Not, I wait until I get the big things and then I can say something. Because then it's condition. Mhm. So I'm hearing that that there was a breaking through of a lot of the self-sabotaging patterns of kind of beating yourself up in the comparison to something that you felt like you wanted to become and your way of moving through that was actually a finding appreciation day after day and small little things and that appreciation came from, I guess what you call self-love or or or gratitude on the inside and say, OK, like. Amil, you're, you're, you're getting shit done. Maybe it's not perfect. Maybe it's not, you know, what you think dad would approve of, but it's, it's slowly getting there step after step, yeah, acknowledgement was huge, like just even at the end of the day going, you know what. Like I would literally do this there, I would tap myself on the shoulder and be like. You did good today. I give myself like I leave me like and be like, just that. Yeah, I, I, I love that. I mean, for, for me, you know, I, I actually received some validation from my father growing up, for sure. But the piece I always felt was missing of just wanting him to say, I've got this, like, whatever it was, like, I've got the bill, I've got you, I like, you're supported, but that, you know, so I learned my, my learning was like. Can't trust anyone, get you done on your own because there's no one else there to support you and, you know, so it's a constant learning and leaning in for me about like. So the validation, but the place of like, can this brother, can this individual help me in the soul vision. So it's like a constant leaning into the camaradership of things to be supported and, and, uh, uh, you know, helped by other, other men, especially. Yeah, I mean, these, these deep rooted places as male bodies like in the world when We're taught, you know, to be good with logic, reason, understanding, you know, we're not taught any type of self-love and definitely not, you know, emotional stability or emotional expression. We're taught, you know, don't feel your emotions or else you're, you're, you know, you're this, that and the other thing. Mm. And you know, for, for men that you're working with clients, you know, who are kind of in this dance, because the other thing that comes up I see for men who are afraid to express emotions, they feel like they're going to become weak, they're gonna become like off their goal, off their mission, off their person. I can't show like and as a military man, I can relate to that. Like if you showed emotion, you die. Yeah, you die on the battle court, you die out there. So what, what do you see as like the small steps that supports, you know, a male body, especially to be able to have a level of vulnerability to lean into the expression without feeling like he's gonna die or his mission is gonna fail. Yeah, it's, it's it is a, it's a great question because Um, usually the question that I get is, if I work with you. Am I still gonna have the drive and the motivation and the, and the, you know, that's the first thing I hear. I'm like, we're not gonna, we're not gonna change you. We're just gonna come from a sustainable place. And what that, what that looks like is a sustainable place, meaning like, I'm not creating anything from fear anymore of, I don't want to be seen as this, but it's a value of I love what I do and I love who I am and this is what I'm creating. It's a totally different way of how you create in that space, right? Most people that are high achievers or high performers are coming, they've they've gotten to where they've gone because of, I don't want to be seen in a certain way. So at the start, it is a very weird thing for them to grasp because. Ultimately, that's been their survival tactic. I need to survive. This is how I'm gonna do it. You just said it before. I will never share with you again, or because I haven't had support from you, I'll do it myself because I've been disappointed. Right? And it's learning how to lean into that again. And, and the biggest thing that I, I do is there's like, I literally got, I actually got a message just from one of my clients in Washington, uh, yesterday. And, uh, same thing. He's, he's been so used to, he's a, he's a restaurant owner. He's had the business for 15 years. He's very successful. Um, never leaned on anybody. It was very, very new for him to, to, to even share with me and lean in. And I had to consistently remind him, hey, Whenever some things are coming up, don't wait until it gets to this part, like, message me first so I can support you. I don't even know what support, he says. Yeah, I heard that one before. I don't even know what support means. I don't even know how to do that. And I said, I know, this is why I'm training you to do this. I said, and, and it, and I've been working with him for a year now, and only now, like he, he messaged me and he's like, I wasn't gonna send this, and this is my edge. And then he said, Fuck it. And he sent it. And he was like, I'm feeling all types of feelings right now. I didn't know if I should message you, but then you said many, many times. Again, reminders, whenever you start to feel any kind of weirdness, like, they don't you're not, you're not understanding what's coming up. He's having emotions. Emotions is like, it's almost like if I was to mix this water and then put a bunch of dirt in it, shaking it up, like, that's your emotions. This is why most people don't want to feel it because they don't understand it. But, and we know that emotions means energy and motion. So it's like the fear that most people have about their emotions is that I can't control it. I don't understand it, and it might make me lose control. So, fuck that. Let me push it down. Lose control? No, no, no, no, we're not losing control. There's no. I'd rather be stoic and inside dying than actually really check into actually what feelings and emotions am I feeling? What is, what am I noticing here right now? Right? And that's what I'm saying, coming back and pulling out of yourself and going, let, let me be the observer of what's happening so that I can start to recognize that again. That's the emotional intelligence. Right? And, and I think with, with anyone that's like learning how to do that, it's, it's, it's really asking yourself, it's like, what am I still hiding, avoiding and pretending not to know. Mm, mhm. Yeah. I feel like the, uh, the, the general mask that a man loves to wear is, you know, I've got this all sorted out and anything, anything below that, I can't begin to show any level of my, uh, instability because then things will begin to falter from there. So, yeah, and, and I'd love to actually kind of, you know, transition this to, you know, I love to get into the conversations of Our sexuality and our relationships and really how these uh human behavior pieces connect the dots to how we relate in relationship. And so, you know, based upon our initial, you know, conversation here, you mentioned that 21 year old that stepped in the landmark and you know, know you've been through a wide variety of of relating journeys and your, your uh your 2 plus years in this field. You know, where I'm curious how that, how your relationship world is now, as well as around the realms of sexuality and relationships, what would be some of the, the messages that you would tell that that 21 year old that was just beginning to, you know, discover, discover all these pieces, not just around his self self-growth and self-love, but also about how he's relating, you know, to the feminine on the outside. You know, it's interesting, bro, cause when I, when I first got to Landmark, um. I had a girlfriend at the time and I, I did the first landmark. I did level one, then I did advanced and had major breakthroughs. And in the second breakthrough I had was. Um, We were huddled up in the, in the small groups because they separate us in groups in between the call, in between the seminars. And I remember the coach that I had at the time. He was, he was talking to everybody and, and I said, it was my turn to talk, and I said, I really want to bring my, my girlfriend at the time. And he's like, Why do you want to bring her? And I said, I just feel like she's gonna benefit so much from this. I've learned so much. I've just understanding my patterns, my, how I'm reacting versus responding. And I, I just feel like she, she came from a very toxic family, and I feel like this would help her so much. You know, I just knew, right? And he says, he goes, how long have you been with her? And I said, I, I think it was like 1.5 or 2 years at the time. But I said, and he goes, Do you love her? And Aaron, the moment he asked me, do I love her, I couldn't answer. I was like And I'm looking up and he goes, a meal, and I'm like, Yeah, because you love her, and I literally was, I was blank, and this is the first indication about like. How I express. And I said, I mean, I would do anything for her, and I, you know, I, and I still, I just thought I was talking around the subject basically. I'll do anything for her, she's amazing, she's this and that. He's like, Camil, do you love her or not? And I was like, Holy shit. And that's when he, he says, Um, Do you express love to your to your friends, your family? I said no. And then he's like, your family express love? I said, my mom says I love you, but my dad never said I love you before. And then we start digging. And this is why, why I do what I do today, because it's like, it's from the, that, that digging that's got me to where I am today of like, we don't have to show up the way we are because of our past. It's like, if you can learn to break those patterns and understand how people work and show up, it's like, they're gonna, they're gonna shift, even just from a perspective shift. And that can change the whole world. And it changed my world that day when I realized I had a problem with love and expressing love. My father never expressed love to me. I never heard him say it. Um, I even stopped. Being affectionate with my father where even kissing him a little, like I remember when I was 4 years old and I kissed. I used to, he used to kiss me all the time when I was a kid. And, and at 4 years old, I remember. I went and I kissed him. And he, and he said, Hey, you morphy, and morfi means, uh, are you gay in Afrikaans. And, but he was joking with me, but I took that as, don't show affection. So this is the thing we're meaning making machines and at at 4, I made it mean don't show affection to another man, otherwise you'd be considered gay. Mhm. Um, so, subconsciously I grow up and I never expressed love because I never really heard it from my father because I never saw it. I never saw him as a role model, even saying it to my mother. So I couldn't express love. I never expressed it. And, and what I realized that hindrance of like holding back, I thought that if I expressed love, that means that I like you so much, but ultimately, what I thought is if, if I give you love and I didn't get it back, I'm dying. That's death. Right. You know, so that's the meaning I gave it, but I didn't even know because I never really explored the topic of love and expression. So I'm in these relationships, full, fearful avoidance. Mm. Right? Consciously watching, seeing if they're like, are they gonna show up consistent? Are they gonna do this? Are they acting like this? No, no, this isn't safe. Fuck it, I'm out. Right? So we talk about like expression and love and, and, and even sexual expression. It's like, there was so much part of me that was not free. Because I couldn't, I didn't express certain parts of myself because I didn't even feel safe with myself because I didn't understand myself. So how could I be expressing sexually in a way where I'm fully like connected to the person if I'm, if I'm hiding so many parts of myself? Mhm, mhm. Yeah, so many people do it every day. Every fucking day it's crazy. So like even like understanding attachment styles back then I was like, oh my god like. Like, that blew my mind. Like, understanding that, like, everything that I've created in my world is because of my attachment style and wanting to be safe and feel loved. Mhm. And how do you feel about, you know, humans general like both longing for love as well as the fear of love. There's there's so much about love on this planet. I'm looking for love. Where is it? But then when it's actually there, it's usually like, oh, you know. I, I, I don't think people I know everybody wants to be loved. I think the thing that people are fearing about love is the the fact that. It it can, it can ruin you. Hm. Remember the, the, the lack of control I was saying before about the emotions. People steer away from anything that they cannot control. And the thing with love is that what I, what I discovered for myself, I speak from my own personal thing, is that what I discovered for myself is that love is not. Um, love is an expression. When I, when I feel something and I feel that part of me that, that feels love, that I can say it. And, and if I give it to you and you don't give it back, that's not it, that doesn't take away from my love. It's like my love is, is flowing outwards and it's, it's overflowing. And I'm not giving it to you to change you or manipulate you or this. I'm just giving it cause I want to give it. And that's what I visualize as love, right? That's why I love. So it, it's interesting when you say like, I want love, but then I'm scared of it. And it's like, it's, it's admitting that it's like, I'm afraid to be hurt. And there's part of me that's like, maybe there's an attachment here of fear of being abandoned. It's like, I really want to let you in, but I'm fucking terrified because if I do, And I become vulnerable, and I open up fully, and you see all those parts of myself that I still haven't accepted myself, you could fucking ruin me. Mm So, you know, I feel like we all want love. I think it takes incredible amount of courage to open up and be vulnerable, especially when every part of your being, every cell, wants to be like, no, fuck this, this isn't safe. Mhm, mhm. Yeah, I mean, I think deep love brings up all of the the things inside of us. It's not love to be seen and to be heard and to be felt and to be dealt with and, you know, I know in my own journey in the last, you know, 20 years for me, definitely relationships are where the greatest growth are. It's there's nowhere to run, there's nowhere to hide, and all the, you know, fear of. When you, when you think about it, you, you do all the self-development work, man. I'm, I'm so, I've done so much self-development work, Aaron, but you get into a relationship and everything goes out the door. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So what's your current dynamic with relating? What's your relating world like? So right now I am dating a woman from, she's born and raised in Sweden, but she's Bosnian and um. What's beautiful about this is. It's. It's a woman that I see. I'm not dating just to, just to see and, and just be like, oh, we'll see what happens. Like, I'm dating for a possibility of like building a future. Um, like where I could see me having children and building an actual future with. And this woman is, she's special, you know, it's, it's been a, it's been an interesting journey because I met her originally 5 years ago, um, in Cape Town, and I was Actually in a relationship, oh, I wasn't, I wasn't. Considered, uh, official, but I was seeing someone. And I, and I saw her, I actually saw her. It's a funny story. I was in a, it was in a bar, um, or like a dinner restaurant. And we, and I saw her through a couple of people. And I remember seeing her and looking at her and I was like, wow, she's beautiful. And I, I was looking at her, she looks up and she catches me, and I was like, And I nodded and I smile back and then, but I never met her then and then um. One of my buddies actually we got introduced to her later on and I was still like, wow, she's super beautiful and then one of my buddies actually went on a couple of dates with her and then um. They went on a few dates and then nothing happened and um I was my. The girl that I was seeing, she came to Cape Town like 2 weeks later, and I was into my girl, but um. And then a few weeks later, me and one girl became official, and it was like 3 years of dating and stuff and long distance, but I just, maybe 2 years ago now, I, I separated from my partner and I reconnected with this girl. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I'm with it. Yeah. So, so I dated my ex for 3 years. It wasn't it. I didn't feel like it was, it was where I wanted to, to go with my relationship. And, and, and when I, when I say that, I mean, when I was thinking of relationship, I was like, could this be the mother of my children? And there were certain things that I just didn't see that was fit. Um, and, and I had to make a really Bold choice to be like, am I gonna, it wasn't like she was a bad partner, but it just wasn't like, it wasn't hitting where I wanted to go. And I'm talking in connection, in intimacy, in um on another level, um. And I was 39, and I was like, I'm really gonna separate and be like 30. You know what I'm saying? And you know, the whole story of like, are you, are you really gonna do this at 39, you know, and, and I had to really trust. That um there's something better out there for me and ultimately, I'm not settling. I'm not doing this because I'm gonna settle. You know, so long story short, 2 years ago, actually, it's funny, 2 years ago yesterday, we we met in Oslo. And we and we met in Oslo and spent 2 days together and it was Incredible. We, we, we connected for 2, it was like 2 days where we spent 8 hours together, but we talked the whole time and connected. We have those conversations where you can talk to someone on so many different levels from Spirituality to. Um, relationships to your future, what you believe, what your values are, and, and you connect on so many different levels and you. It, it, I, I had this saying, like one of my yoga teachers said to me, he goes, having a great conversation, like that inspires you can be better than sex sometimes. And I said to him, What do you think? And he goes, Because you both extremely high and like excited and, and you're both feeling amazing. It's like, that's the connection you want. And I remember that because he, he said that to me when I was 21, when I first met my yoga teacher. Um, And I had that kind of experience with with this girl and. Um, a woman, I say. And, you know, she's a, she has a background in psychotherapy as well. So like, we, we both can relate and connect and talk about certain similar things. And, and it's been a journey. Erin, I'm not gonna lie. Like, it hasn't been like, oh yeah, we just started talking and then this happened. At the time, you know, she was, she was in a relationship, but it was quite a toxic relationship and When I first met her, and that's when I was like, I would so date her, but at the same time, I don't do this kind of stuff, like I'm not about mixing different things and not an open relating man. No, I'm not. Yeah, so, yeah, so we, I said, do your thing and, and she did, and, and then a few, maybe 6 months later they separated and I still didn't think anything of it. We still kept talking and kept it. You know, amicable and and cool, and then, um. This year we reconnected in Cape Town, um. And I think with. When you come out of something that has been heavy and toxic, sometimes it's not, even though you're out of the relationship and you're, you're free again, it doesn't mean that you're free, you know, and I think, you know, she still had to go through some things herself on a personal level and And now we've properly reconnected again. We just actually spent time in Europe. And um she's been doing the work on herself. And this is the thing that I love as well. It's like, I want a partner that, Can recognize that she still needs to, to heal or do the work and does the work. Doesn't just be me down and and be like, cool, I'm, I'm good now because it's gonna come up in your relationship. Right, you don't put it there, it's gonna come up, you know, you know again because it's gonna re-trigger the same shit. And, and how do you go, um, you know, being, I've, I've been in multiple dynamics with teaching alongside a partner and, you know, having a very astute intelligent, you know, embodied beings there which when it's graceful and flowing, it's great. And how, how does it happen when two psychotherapists meet inside of conflict that they're like, uh, yeah, tell me more. This is what people don't get is like everyone's like, yeah, I want a conscious partner until you get someone that can call you out and you're shit and then you're like, oh my God. Um, everybody wants a conscious partner until they get caught out in their shit. That should be a t-shirt, yeah, because the, the thing is that a conscious partner isn't just gonna let you. As, let me reframe that as a teacher and as a coach, like being in this industry so long, it's like your shadow can get really fucking big, right? What I mean by that is that you can hide. What most people can't see because of the fact that you're self-awareness levels because of the fact that the work that you've done. But on the, on the dark side of that is that you can, you can manipulate people into seeing you in a certain way. And then also get away and it becomes more and more subtle, like the, the higher the, the bigger the ego gets, the, the more, um, sorry, the more knowledge you get, the, the slyer and the more sneaky the ego gets to survive. And This is one of the biggest things I have noticed about, you know. Dating this woman now is. Is there has been shit where I'm like, oh my God, I'm extremely uncomfortable because she's seeing right through my bullshit. But. As much as that's uncomfortable. What's most important for me is when we do have conflict or when we do have disagreements, she's able to hold space. And still be nurturing and loving in those moments. And that for me is something that I was longing for, because I was always the person to hold space. But as, as someone in this space that's been in it for so long, it's like, can I have a partner that can hold space for me? Can I be? Can I not know or get it wrong and still be lovable? And can you be seen in your vulnerability and not judged and ridiculed and actually loved inside of it? Yeah, and that's such a vulnerable deep state to go into and it's like that's. Yeah, I love that you bring that in and and I think that's where That mask of, um, you know, the, the master masculinity of having shit all figured out. It's like in those moments of vulnerability to really let love in to let yourself be seen in that way. It takes a lot of courage. Um, and I also love what you share around like the fine-tuned capacity. I mean, I see that, you know, I work in the field of, of arrows and sexuality and relationships and like my, I have to keep such a fine-tuned like sword. To my own like inner shadows that can play out in so many different ways, but like not denying that energy, but also being present to it and and not letting it take over. It's a, in a way, I, I, you know, and I think you could probably relate, it's almost like a beautiful like, uh, test and gift into it. It's like how much awareness can I expand into to recognize all the different parameters playing out at any given time. Uh, and yeah, it's it's a constant journey for sure, for sure. And, you know, in, in when, you know, the disagreements of the things do happen and especially for someone listening that's maybe in a conscious relationship, like, what are some of the key points that you think support the two of you to make it through those moments when your shit's up and you're both kind of in it? Like what, what, what do you find works well? I think for us, I, I can speak for us, you know, there's there's certain triggers. My, my one of my triggers is. Um, because my dad was aggressive. I'd either go into free freeze mode, or I would go into fight. So noticing um I think awareness is key for each of the individuals in the relationship first to understand like what are your patterns when we have conflict? Like, I think every couple should know, how do you fight? What do you do when shit comes up? You, what are you gonna come at me swinging, am I gonna have black eyes? What's going on? It is. It's, it's honestly a very good question because everyone can be good and loving and at the start, everything's great. But it's like, what happens when shit hits the fan with you? Like, how do you respond or react when, when you don't get your way? How do you sabotage relationships? All right. And, you know, for me personally, it's like, I always kept this image of like, be cool, calm and collected. Don't, don't lose your shit, you know, don't show too much emotions. Hence why I've gone into emotions, right? I had to rebuild my relationship with anger because I looked at anger as bad and wrong because my mother would always say, oh my God, look at your father, he's losing his shit. Um, me deem that as, oh, that's not good. Don't ever lose your shit or don't ever be aggressive because that means you're an asshole. And, and I had to reprogram that into being like, no, every emotion is welcome, every emotion is useful. Right. Every emotion is welcome, every emotion is useful. So if I'm allowing the emotions, then what happens when I get into conflict or confrontation or feeling like it's uncomfortable. And usually I told you I go to freeze or I go into fight and what I had to recognize was No, a partner at my partner now, she, she loves speaking about things, and she's a bit spicy, and she wants to talk about it. So. As much as I have to allow her to feel her own needs, I also have to check in with one of my needs at that time, right? I think this is what most of us don't do is we're like, what are my needs in these moments, you know, so sometimes I might, I know that I am going to freeze and I had to check in and be like, hang on a second. I'm noticing I'm, I'm going to freeze and what what that looks like is, um, I don't know how to respond in this situation. I need. To pause for a moment, regulate my nervous system, and then. Let me come back into the space, and that's simply like me communicating to her and be to be like. Hey, I'm coming into a bit of a freeze mode. I'm noticing, uh, just give me 10 minutes and, and I'll come back into the space. So communicating that to her, so she doesn't feel like I'm just like avoiding it or suppressing it, which could trigger her, right? Um, and then me regrouping, reconnecting with like actually what's happening, and then coming back into the space, and then coming from a place that's more grounded. And that's been really helpful. You know, there's been times where like we both have been, you know, triggered and like triggering each other and and sitting through that, and and me having to consistently say to myself. I'm safe and regulating myself to be like, it's OK. This is OK. You're safe, right? Ultimately, if we look at the whole thing, I'm, I'm saying, and I'm reading it from both bases as, as a meal and as Amil the coach and as Amil the coach meal goes. She's just needing reassurance. Hm. How can I reassure her, but first, I have to give myself something first. Right? And that had to be one of my things because my pattern, Aaron was, uh, constantly like, let's see to her first. And this is where I was like, constantly getting my needs not met. But then there's the other thing is my own fault was going, what are my needs? What do I need, you know, and, and most, most men don't know that because we're constantly always being like just fucking shut up, do your thing and like. So her out. Just get shit done, sort her out. You have no needs. I mean, I think the, you know, for a man to first establish that need is a four-letter word that he's allowed to have is, is a big step, you know, especially in relationships, just that strong like provider, protector, it's like something's wrong with, with, with her on the outside. OK, what do I need to do? And you know, the result that so many men are are burnt out by the time they're, you know, 50 or even before that because they've just spent their whole life always trying to caretake someone else instead of what I'm really hearing you share, which is beautiful, like checking in. OK, how can I have my cup full before I meet and interact with her, because if the cup isn't full, then I know myself, if my cup isn't full, then there's just this like passive aggressive prick that comes out that's just like You know, not present, not there. It is like taking every little word that she says, you know, um, seriously, and, you know, it's a, the other piece and I'm curious if you relate to this, like I found myself at times like almost The, both literally and figuratively, like the punching bag for the feminine because I'm like, oh, I learned, you know, I'm the masculine. I'm gonna be here. I'm, you know, I'm pure Shiva presence. I'm gonna be I'm gonna be here. Give me, give me, come on, come on, you know, and then I'm like, whoa, like there was this, this tenderness inside of me that wasn't being cared for and was just literally. You know, being beaten up and destroyed. And that, that was a big learning to be able to recognize, OK, like I need to take care of me before I have anything more, I can offer it to her to the outside. Mm. It it's such an interesting thing, bro, cuz it it that pattern itself is the. Um, is the people pleaser, is the, let me, let me just do it because that means I'm lovable and I'm, I'm, I'm enough, you know, and it's like, and, and, and what we have to realize that as men, it's like, no, you also get to have your needs me. Roses allowed to. You're, you're, you're allowed to have your needs met. You're allowed to communicate your needs, you're allowed to express your needs, and if you, you're a man listening to this and you don't know that, then maybe it's a good opportunity to have these, these conscious conversations, you know. I love it. It's, uh, it's great. And, you know, when it comes to, cause I heard you say before, um, you know, you're more of a, sounds like more monogamy and not kind of sharing intimacy with others. How do you two You know, navigate, you know, whether it be jealousy or things that arise in the relationship or if there's attraction outside of the relationship, do you name it? Do you kind of keep it like how do you navigate that? It's interesting because we're we're just, we're fairly new into this like we're still dating as well and it's, it's we've had conversations about it and um. Yeah, so it, it's still very, very new, Aaron, so it's like we haven't got like, I know for sure it's like. I'm into this woman and and for me it's like, of course in in Bali, you see there's a lot of beautiful women, but for me personally, it's like. Over the years, I, I've been with beautiful women I've seen this, I've seen that, but it's like, for me it's like. How does this person carry themselves? What is their, how do they have conversations? How do they connect? Like, it's beyond like the attraction for me because it's like it has to be more than that for me. So it's like. When I, when I, when I'm so particular with who I am connecting with, because like I said, back in the day, like, you know, I wasn't, I don't know, I didn't share this before, but I was a model for 12 years. I was traveling the world as a um I was seeing beautiful women all over the world and, and I did that for a good amount of time and At the same time, it's like it was fun, but it, it didn't really. I, there's only so much of that I could do before I'm like, I need something deeper. I need something more connected for myself. So for me personally, it's like. You know, seeing a beautiful woman, it doesn't, it doesn't faze me anymore to the point where I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm tempted by it because it's like the what I'm, what I'm cultivating with this person right now is, is something so much more cherished. And I feel more connected to that. And, and, and for me, it's like as I'm going deeper into love, and what's interesting about love is going, where am I still playing safe, even like, how can I fully open up my heart into this space and be like fully like, I'm a fucking old man. That to me is way more exciting than me me going, OK, I'm, I'm getting, I'm getting tempted by different things. For me. And, and exciting as well as like the, the, the vulnerability as we spoke about before of showing up with, with, with love in that way. And you know, it's what I'm, I'm really here and you share and you know, my own kind of, you know, recent journey, there's been a, a woman, especially in this last year, that's kind of come into my life. Um, when we met when I was, you know, open relating with another woman and And that other woman was frustrated because she wasn't feeling fully chosen. And now like I can feel this transition where it's like, actually, I'm feeling that place. It does want to have children and does want to more deeply commit and I can feel that. What's that? Yeah, yeah, I do. I feel that I'm, I'm always is something only coming up now? Well, it's, I've always felt like, I don't know intuitively, they come into my world around 42, 43, and I didn't know how or where and I feel like, you know, this woman has come in my life recently and we're landing this project in Portugal. You know, and there's a very strong like, we're making love and her womb is like buzzing. It's like, give me seed, give me seed, give me seed. So, and I'm, and I, I feel like there's this like we've felt the presence of the souls around us and our lovemaking, and it's, it's right there. It's tangible, it's present. So it's, it's, uh, it feels exciting too. It feels like this is the next. Step in my journey, like I've always, I, you know, I didn't always feel that way. It's right around 30 where I was like, oh I think I could be open to that, but it hasn't like really felt right. I mean, when um My past partner and I, uh, Raven were together. We probably would have created children and she had her womb removed after her second child, so that wasn't on the table. Um, but yeah, especially now, I can really feel this, this buzzing aliveness coming in this direction. And I'm just, my general prayer is, let me get out of my own way and and and let like love and spirit move through me. Yeah, it's it's interesting really because it's like it's the whole thing of like, can you? It's like how much depth have I gone to with this person? Like how much can I really relate and connect and, and, and as mirrors we are, it's like. Are we really going there? Is it only to the capacity and it's like I, I'm, I'm at a stage now where I'm like, yeah, I'm about to be 42 and. Soon, which is crazy to me, and, and I'm going, what's the next chapter for me, right? And that for me is, is really exciting to me. Like that next chapter, it's like, I don't want, like I said to you before, I don't date just to date. I date to, to properly see if this is something special for me and, and, uh, I haven't connected with anybody since my ex, except for this, this girl and Even when she was sorting into her things and working through her things, I still wasn't really interested in anybody. I wasn't like, I was going on a couple of dates, but it was like nothing intrigued me like this woman. So for me, when I find that, I'm like, that's, that's something special to me, to, to go. It's about. And then where can we take this? And, and this is where I'm like, it, it excites me because it's like when you have I don't know about you, but for me personally, when I, when you have two people, I have a vision already. And I've always had a vision like, this is what I, I want to live in a few countries. I wanna have my businesses in different places. I wanna be able to live and work anywhere in the world. I value freedom. When you get someone else that has similar values, that has similar visions, and you're like, Oh, we could do this together. Like, that's what. Like, we could do this together and Like, have fun and share things and experiences like. Yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful gift. You know, I, I found this, this last woman I was seeing which, which ended, you know, a few months back. It was interesting because we were meeting in all these different levels. We were teaching together. There was like so much alignment in so many ways, and deep down inside, I could just feel this part that was like, actually this isn't. Aligned like and and there's like this, this, there was something on like an inner bio biological level that just kind of could feel that and it was challenging. So I kind of kept our, you know, kept things open. I could feel her wanting to make things more like closed, but there was just this part inside that You know, wanted to fully choose her, cause I, I really love her and I respect her, and we meet on so many great adventures and it was super fun. But like I, there's just this voice inside that's like, no. And I can feel now with actually listening to that voice and like letting myself remain open. I feel now this like deepening in, um, that feels like exciting. I can feel like the, the goosebumps rising my body and the butterfly, and, you know, and we're The end of this year, we'll have, you know, we'll have a a beautiful community place in, in Portugal. She has a home in Spain. I have a home in Bali, you know, we're teaching all over the world. We're gonna be teaching in Tulum in February. It's like there's so many things, so it's like, that's all there and it's required just like this deep listening to that truth inside of me, which it sounds like you're sharing as well, which is challenging cause I, I knew like with this past partner, like it was challenging when I was sharing with her like. I, I love you and I, I can't just like I need to keep this relationship open because it's just what feels aligned and true, and I'm glad I did because of that, you know, I met this other woman and, and it doesn't take away my respect and love for, you know, for her. It was just a recognition like I need to be in my truth, cause if I'm not, there's some part of me that's going to be resentful down the road. Yeah, it's it's another way like right now is the way you you when even how you speak about it, you're like, yo, this is just it, this is so much more fitting with where I wanna go. And there's something about that when, uh, it's not just, you know, you, you, you've been in the coaching industry for a while. It's it's something about like, I'm building this and I'm doing this, and I'm seeing things happen and I'm seeing change, but it's like, when you can, um, be around someone that gets you, fully gets you, like, like I can share stories after and be like, Yo, I had this client today and da da da da, and she gets it. Hm. Um, I can be like, Yo, I want to create this in the business and this, and she gets it. And I'm like, Ah, like, you don't feel so, you know what I'm saying? It's like the entreprepreneurial journey can be quite lonely. And, and when you have someone with a clear vision and similar values, like I said, like, And you start building together, like with what you're doing is with the lands and stuff like that's another game. That's another game related connecting, like, share, like. I want to build my relationship first with her, and then, but we're already talking about different ideas of possibility of collaborating, but I want her to have her business, I still want me to have my own business, but some small projects as well together. But that in itself is exciting to be able to go, oh, I've got a female perspective on this. I've got this perspective on this. For sure, for sure, yeah, I feel like I could do a master class on like how to teach men how to teach alongside their partner cause I about it. Honestly, that would be so helpful because I there's so many people it's it's such a A tough thing because it's like, how do you separate relationship from business and how do you make sure you have the time versus this? And like, you know, this is why I, I'm still like, I still want to keep my own business separately and not be like a fully, you know what I'm saying? Like, I, I see a lot of people are like, Oh, we're, you're doing this, I'm doing this, let's work together. I'm like, Yo, I'd rather build our relationship first, make sure the foundation is from there first before we add in other elements, because it is. Yeah, yeah, and there's a, there's a good like kind of medicine in between. I mean, I, I've had some in the past where, you know, like when, when Raven and I were together, we made love the first time on a Wednesday and Saturday we were teaching a workshop together. It was like boom. That was just what life dictated. We, it was just like, she's like, oh, I'm teaching this weekend. You wanna come support and teach with me. I'm like, OK, yes, you know. And that's like, you know, like the driving part for me is the service of the soul, like how, what am I here in this life doing? And, um, and I can feel, um. That there's something that wants to literally burst through me, you know, and, and there's a creative pulse of not just in, you know, projects and books and things like that, but like the, the place of actually like, you know, bringing, bringing life into this world. And, and is this something pretty alive for you as well? Um, absolutely. Like, when I, when I think about this, this current situation, like I said, like she, she's gonna be here in, in January and we'll be spending time here and, and this is where we're gonna be looking at like going deeper with the vision and, and possibility like I said, um. We we we've talked about everything from. Kids to this, to how many to like where would you want to live like, and and and people are like, oh, you're asking those questions already and I'm like, yes, I I I'm asking those questions now because I don't want to waste time to later to find out to be like, oh, I don't want that. Like we're not in alignment in certain parts. It's like I'm asking every single question and associate. Yeah, great, great. I'll be back in Bali in uh January. I you two should come up and uh safer night up in Mundo. We'll have a, a little gallery, yeah, a nice dress room up there. Yeah, they're great. I guess it's a nice, uh, private waterfall on the property secluded away. It's a beautiful spot. I love to have you up, bro. I'm so down. Moon is one of my favorite parts so amazing, amazing. Well, thank you, brother. Thank you for, uh, really, yeah, I appreciate your, your, your vulnerability in this conversation as well. I feel like there's, uh, maybe, maybe not conversations you're always having or maybe it is, but I, I could feel that it was touching upon some, some, some tender beautiful places. Thank you for your willingness to dive in. Um, for people that want to find out more about you or the things you're doing, what would you like to share to people listening? Um, they can go to my Instagram, which is at Emil Steambo, or they can go to my website, Amilsteamboat.com. Cool, cool. And uh, and one last thing, it's alive I was thinking about earlier. Is it the, the leading with love or the love of leadership? No, leading with love. Leading with love. As soon as you said that, I was like, what resonates more? I'm like, leading with love because it's like. If I'm leading with love, it's like I'm not restricting my, I don't feel restricted. Remember I said to you before I love is, is, is so much bigger. There's no, there's no cap. Mhm, mhm. Amazing. Thank you, brother. It's been a joy and honor. Love you. I appreciate you. Thank you for showing up the way you do in this world and uh grateful to have brothers like you out there. Thank you, man. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. See you all next time on Love, Sex and Leadership.