Welcome to the counter narrative show. We are having a special edition. I am guest hosting for Rasheem today. Our title of our show is black trans life as a site of resistance. And I have two amazing guests today, and so I'd like them to introduce themselves and tell the world a little bit about who you are. And I'll start with Lee.
I need to know everything, who in the what in the where. I need everything. Trust me, I hear what you're saying, but allegiance. Know what you're telling me. I'm Curious George. I happen to pause for five and a horse. I'm ready for war. I'm coming for throws to turn it with ghosts. I need to know everything.
Hey, how's everyone doing? My name is Lee Levison Perine. My pronouns are he, him. So I do a lot of things during the day. I do work for DC government, so that's what pays the bills. And then my passion project, side hustle, although it's more also have a full time job. Is a group called makers lab, and we've been around since 2014 and we create spaces that celebrate life, art and LGBTQ culture. So we've done everything from dance parties to body positive workout classes. We worked on a music festival called Honey groove. Right now, our project is called Black in space, and so it's our response to COVID. So we did a virtual black Pride festival. We've launched black and space TV and been doing a lot of other collabs this year. So staying very busy. So
that's me. Thank you. Thank you for that intro, John. Know.
Hey folks. My name is John L Lawrence. Pronouns, he, they, I too. Actually work for city government member for city government, for New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, focusing on racial and gender equity and results of HIV care and treatment. That's That's what paid the bills for me. My side hustle thing is, I have a little consulting business where I work with organizations, businesses, corporations, regarding dismantling oppression and bias and transphobia and ableism amongst their structures. And then also, one of my big loves is working with the youth, as we all know, homeless, LGBT Q i A plus youth is a growing pandemic. It's a silent pandemic that many folks do not talk about so I like to give my time a lot to really, really working towards giving those folks enough information, enough resources and guidance to lead to their own empowerment and liberation. Yes, thank
you those intros. I'm glad I don't do an intro today, because I would not follow either one of y'all. So I think whenever, whenever we talk, we have conversations about black, trans, life and resistance, it feels like it usually starts in the heavy, right? We like we start in statistics. We start in the pain. And today I'd like to start in the joy. So the first question I have for y'all is, what are your joy practices? How do you practice joy with yourself, with others, with gathering. How do you practice joy? And I'll start with John Doe this time. All right? Well, for me,
um, I think one of the beauties is community. So I know that many of us have experienced collective trauma, but I believe in collective joy and a collective healing. So one of the biggest things is this, right? It's community, right? The this what we see right here, happy, glowing, black, queer, trans faces, right? This is this right. Here is the hit. This is the dream, right here, right? And so one of my biggest joys is being able to share space with my folks, right? You know, pre COVID was able to get a lot of that in, right? But right now, a lot of it is literally through connection, via zoom and talking with fellows, but also really having so much quiet time with myself, really, really focusing on being centered and centering my own peace and healing in private, right? So I do a lot of meditation, I do a lot of working out, I do a lot of reading, and I avoid the news like the plague, you know. And for right now, that's how I take care of me. Other than that, I mean, I'm a person. I also like to dance naked. I think dancing naked with yourself, by yourself, is one of the most liberating and free experiences one can have. And so with shit hits the fan, I'm feeling a little funky. I throw on a record, take it off and shake it out. I love that. I love that. Yes,
I love I'm gonna add, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna make a note of that and add that to my joy list. I'm gonna get funky and dance naked. I love that about you. How do you how do you practice joy? Yeah,
so a lot of ways, actually, well, so I took what I was, like astrology test, and it said I was an expansive ambassador of joy, right? And so that's what we say we are at Makers lab, like we are Joy ambassadors, and we do that through the spaces that we create. And so, you know, we've been. Really busy during COVID, bringing folks together, whether it was like the black Pride festival, some other collabs and spaces that we're creating. But what I realized in that though, is I was creating all these joyous spaces, but, like, what was bringing me joy? And that does too, but I was like, I got to take care of me in this process. And so, you know, since we've been in, like, stay at home, or whatever phase we're in right now, like, like, John L I've been really, like, focusing on, like, my spiritual practices and my grounding practices. And so I make sure I walk every day. I drink water now, which is not something I was really doing. Like, I make sure I check in with my family at least, like, once a week. I talk to my mom every day, like I connect with my friends via zoom or daily check ins. And so just really appreciating the hard stop that we had and assessing, like, who am I and what makes me happy? And really putting joy at the center of my life, because in the past, I was creating all these spaces, but joy actually wasn't the center of my own life, and now it actually is. And so now I'm aligned in the spaces I create, but also in my own life as well. So Oh also, I cannot mention joy without mentoring Sylvester. So I'm gonna start dancing naked now, but I'm my soundtrack will be Sylvester. So
yes, I'll be doing so yeah, yes, yes. Get into the joy. Get into the music of Sylvester. You are Sylvester. We call like apologist, like you. You are preaching the word of Sylvester. That's the first thing I knew about you. So you, both of you, mentioned space. And one of the questions I wanted to talk about was, was making space. So the first part of the question is, as you were coming into yourself, who, if anyone, made space for you, either way I can grab it,
I would say it was actually you, Todd, and it was our brother, Cairo. I had a lot of questions. And, you know, I was on YouTube University, going down that rabbit hole, but for me, that just wasn't enough connection, right? And so it was like, when I would come to Baltimore and share space with you all, I got to, like, dig a little deeper and just have conversations and explore sides of myself that I hadn't necessarily given myself permission to, until we connected on that level. So you're definitely a big part of that process. Wow, that's I
had. I did not know that's what I was doing at the time, but thank you, bro for Wow, that's beautiful. Glad that I could add to your life in that way. And Jonelle, same question, who made space for you as you were coming into yourself.
You know, I feel really, really blessed by the folks that just came into my life, particularly over the last 15 years, I have some trans brothers in my life who are my rocks, who my big brothers, who are my mentors, who are my guides. And I'll tell you nothing like it's like when you watch other people live their truth, live honestly, it inherently gives you permission to do the same. And, and, and I it took me a long time to really even be able to formulate a language for what I was experiencing for so long, but I had these beautiful examples around me of folks that were walking through these fears, walking through these barriers, but at the end of joy, at the end of the journey, there was joy, there was freedom. And I knew I wanted that, right? And so it, it was this one thing where it's like, you know, there was this elephant in the room, and all of a sudden I just start to ask questions, right? Like, you know? And what's funny is to talk to some of my big brothers now, they knew, right? It was almost like, I know you saw that meme where, or that video where, it was like, this young person coming out to their mother, and mom was like, we've been waiting for your ass to come out the closet. I was like, I'm like, hello, when you gonna come out? When you when you when you going to do your thing? When are you going to when you going to come out here where freedom is right? And so literally, folks creating space to not only share their stories, but to allow me to slow crawl into my journey, into my freedom,
that's that's beautiful that, and that's a process. That's one of the things being in being trans, it's like it makes you inherently a space maker, even if that was never your intention, as you were saying, just your just your existence gives someone else a permission to exist. And both of you not only do that in in the individual way, but you also do that in a community building way. So can we talk a little bit about community building as a black trans person? How did you come into that work, and where do you see yourself in that work? Now,
I can go first, if that's cool. So I've been creating spaces publicly since 2012 and I started hosting day parties during DC black pride. It was a party called freak out. And at that point in my life, identified as a black lesbian, so I was creating space, you know, for black lesbians and lesbians of color in DC. It wasn't until about like, 2015 I started to like. Truly embrace my journey. And then that's when I, like, you know, change my pronouns, started identify as, like, genderqueer. And so even than that, though people knew me, and so they were still coming to the spaces. But then it was during that time that I started to actively outreach the communities that as my community changed, I wanted other communities to come into the spaces that I was creating, right? And so that's something like we've actively, actively done. Now, I would say, with black in space, is just this commitment as as and this, honestly is my pride as a as a trans man, has grown, and my confidence around who I am has grown. It's just like, I want to see people that look like me in these spaces, and I'm not just going to be like the one dude in the corner, right? And so like, this is, like, these are the spaces that I'm creating, and this is, and I know we can all celebrate and be together. And like, it's just been a little bit different than how I used to create space. But at the end of the day, the energy is still there, the community is still there, but I'm more intentional about reaching out to folks who, in some ways, probably felt like spaces weren't that inclusive for them. And so that's what we're doing now. And it's funky because of COVID, but when we come back together, hopefully being able to do that in person as well.
Beautiful, beautiful for me. You know, I started off volunteering at a space called the Mazzoni Center in Philadelphia back in 2007 and what I was finding in a lot at that time myself, too, you know, masculine lesbian at the time, and but also noticing the exclusivity regarding trans experiences and the transphobia that happened in a lot of those CIS spaces and and seeing people leave right, seeing diversity not be a thing in a space that is supposed to be, a space of freedom, a space of joy, a space where folks can center their own truths and their own honesty. And so something that you know, I too, have been really intentional about as I've been growing in this work, and in particular in community spaces, is also being really mindful of not only just my oppressive identities, but oppressive identities that I don't care, right? So also thinking about ability, right? Thinking about language, thinking about citizenship, thinking about things that create barriers for other folks that I don't necessarily experience. So using that one lens of being able to see where I wasn't seen in so many spaces that also recognize to be intentional, to create spaces for everyone as much as possible, and to bring as many folks to the table to inform these processes in these spaces to make them as inclusive as possible. And you know, one of the things when you're thinking about building spaces is also thinking about how one can center their own piece in these processes, right? Because we take on a lot when we're creating these spaces. And one of my things is like, if I build and create in a way that might kill me. I'm creating a world inherently that will kill me, which is the world that I already exist in, right? So I need to be really, really mindful about how hard I go and be and be willing to actually it's best that there's more people at the table than not, so that we can all have time for rest, and we all can have time for joy. We all can have time for healing. And when we come to come together, the collective joy is popping. Yes,
collective joy is popping. So if
I can add that, and one of the things I didn't mention, into which I can't believe I didn't is the shift that we've had at Makers lab. And so I'm a person in recovery, right? I don't drink. I can't drink. It does not work for me, right? And so we actually had to take, I had to close our doors in 2017 so I could get sober. And then we came back this year. And so with that, though, it's like, we create zero proof spaces. And so when you come to our events, even if it's virtual, like we're not talking about shots and drinking and all that other kind of stuff, right? And so like, how are the ways that we can be joyful that's just not focused on, on, like, liquor, right? And so, but I will admit there was some apprehension around that. But, you know, to Daniel's Point, like, I'm not gonna create spaces that could kill me, right? And so I'm gonna create a space that I can walk into and be myself and show people, like, how to, like, live, love and celebrate without, you know, without substances. And so that's a big part of our work, too. Yes, let's
get into it. Fine, good. You open up, right? So as as as s3, folks in recovery, let's talk about like how recovery is related and intrinsic to our individual liberation. John, now I'm gonna start with you, because you tell me this every time I see you. Go ahead.
Let me tell you this. Let me tell you this. And, wow, I didn't even think we was gonna hit this today.
I'm on the freedom. I wasn't gonna open like, since the door is open, I'm excited, and I it's another reason why I'm thrilled. So let's, let's. Ahead. Let's walk through it together.
I too, as a person in recovery who's who's approaching 15 years, removing that cloud has gotten me closer to my freedom and to my joy, right? And I will say every single time I step into a room of recovery and I see these beautiful, black, trans, queer faces, you know, literally defying gods, right? Because ultimately, we're living in a world that wants us dead. We're living in a world that wants us suffering. We want us. We're living in a world that wants us without hope. And you know what my recovery has given me is Hope, Life, the ability to share that liberation with other people, right? Because what, what used to be, the stories that I was ashamed of, what used to be the stories that were holding me back, that brought me shame, are now the stories right, that bring other people and when we come together, this is, this is like exactly what many systems don't want? Clear, grateful, sober and full of fucking joy. And you know, and if you would have told me 15 years ago that I would be right here in this moment without a drink or drug in my body, celebrating my transness, celebrating all levels of my freedom, like Lee mentioned, talking to his mother every day like that. Right there was the biggest gift that came for me. Came out this 15 years work, the fact that the one person that I ran from for so many years is the one person that I talk to every day is the person that loves me unconditionally because she already saw me. She saw me killing myself. She saw me sad, she saw me full of fear. And what she gets to see today is a child that is walking hope, walking freedom, walking liberation, walking resistance, right? Because all of this right here is resistance, because everything else is set up against us, but yet we're still here.
That That reminds me of, well, two things. One, I just had a memory of the first time I heard my mom use my pronouns and like, how, how amazing that felt. Like, that was like, I I turned into a little kid. I was like, my mom, my mom called me. They need on the phone. It was amazing. So shout out to mamas who know who we are. Also, I was thinking about part of, part of, for me, what is liberating about the identity is knowing who we are, despite being assigned something else at birth. That is something about that knowing and then that seeking of who you are, that that journey that is resistance. And I'd like to ask you all about that. So what was it like from the time that you you knew who you are until you got you know closer to maybe an esthetic affirming who you were, or just claiming who you were through pronouns and stuff like that? But just talk a little bit about what that's like.
I can kick it off. Um, so I think I knew who I was, but I didn't know what the language was. You know, I'm 42 right? So I grew up, like, in the 80s and 90s in the Midwest, and we just, we didn't have a lot of language for things. And so I was like, Oh, I guess, I guess I'm a lesbian. That's, that's what I am. Let me, let me go with that. Right? Then I got to DC, and I started to, like, be in more spaces, and I got to, I got to see possibility, right? And I got to see that people could live exactly the way that they wanted to. But I still, I still fought it, like, tooth and nail. It wasn't until after I got divorced, and then I was just like, well, what the fuck is happening with my life? You know that I was just like, like, like, Who are you and what do you want? And it's time to, like, start embracing yourself. But at that point, I was, like, 35 years old, and I was like, Well, how do I tell my mom that I'm trans, right? And like, and all these other kind of things. I was just like, I just have to be honest with her, and she's going to be okay with it. And it may not be on my timeline, but officially she will come around. And so finally, I just at 3536 I just like, gave myself permission, and again, that like, YouTube, university, connected with friends, just and then I just like, started to feel better. And that's also when, about the time I started to embrace recovery, and that's when I started to feel more aligned and more energetic and more hopeful. And it all, it all started to make sense. And so I. Think, like, one of the reasons I like to share my story is because the thing is, with like, YouTube University, I would see all these folks in, like, in their 20s, and I was like, Well, damn, that's not my story. And you know, they were all, like, hip and young and fashionable. It's like, I'm somebody's uncle, right? And so I was like, Where the hell do I fit into all this? But like, being patient with myself and being like, I may not fit it into it exactly, but I will still find myself in this process, and there will be people who like, love, affirm and support me as as I like, embrace this journey. And so that's kind of happened
for me, love, love, love to us as pop pops in the trans journey, because I feel that. I definitely feel like I was already old, uh, by by the time I really started embracing who I was. I want to give a shout out to some of the comments before we keep going. Someone said they're watching from Tucson, Arizona. So shout out to us for getting to the other side of the country. Someone else said, I say to one of the wonderful points you could have shared. So many points, I'm not sure which one that was referring to. And then Edwin says, Hello, Ty and the counter narrative show team. So thank you all for watching. Feels. Please feel free to comment any questions that you have. Janell, I wanted to give you an opportunity to answer the same question about just like, what is it like to know who you are despite you know, being assigned something else at birth, being told who you are from a pretty young age, and having to kind of hold on to the identity that you saw. Yeah,
well, you know, I mean, my story's not unique, right? Not having the language, not having the representation in my life, read so much confusion, right? Because I knew what I was attracted to, right? I didn't know who I was. I didn't know. I didn't know how to frame. I didn't I didn't know. I just didn't know. Because what I can always remember is that like when I when I came out right, it felt incomplete. It still didn't feel right. Yep, it felt like it was like half a story. But to me, I was telling the truth, but I only knew half the story. And you know, as a person who who is affirming in an older age, you know, I was really grateful to watch other people live their truth and come out at older ages, right? So, so I knew it could be done, right? I had these examples, but something happened when I was, I want to say about 212, years ago, I walk into this grocery store and this older gentleman who's working the checkout says to me, goes, so Are you family, right? Well, you know, yeah, I'm queer, whatever, right? It was like, Oh, I was like, he was like, Oh, I thought, I thought, I thought you were one of my brothers, right? And literally, this is, I mean, like, just very different present presentation at the time, right? But this person saw me, right? And literally, I would keep going back to the grocery store, like to like something I could get at the corner store. I would just go back to the grocery store to see Bill, right and Bill. We would just, I would find myself for an hour in the grocery store talking to Bill and Bill Bill, after I did some research, Bill had been out there doing some amazing things since, like, 1970 something, and then, like, some things happened in his life. But anyway, I was attracted to it. But even though he saw me, I didn't yet see me, but I knew I was attracted to this freedom. I knew there was something about him living his full joy. That brought me so much joy, right? And then it was just had me, like, racking my brain, and then, like, certain things were happening, like, and I've shared this in other spaces, like, you know, as a person who, who was binding, no matter who was around, right? Like, literally walking around my apartment, binding, you know, recognizing, like, oh, it's something else that's happening here and and I'm just really grateful for the folks who had courage before there was all of this social media, before there was YouTube university, because I too would go in Google holes for hours, watching the videos, watching the stories, right, watching, watching the documentary, aggressive. Right, like,
like, oh, and it's still not landing.
Still not landing. That
moment hits when you finally say it, there's something that happens, there's this side that happens. And for me, I was overwhelmed with so many emotions when I finally said it. I. It was like, I don't ever want to hold that anymore. I don't want to hold it. I don't want to
hold it as you shouldn't that that the aggressives, fam. I feel like I was going down the road and I was getting close, and that thing sent me for a left. I was like, Okay, I don't feel like I'm any of these people. But this is as close as fine. But there is something about that, like looking for glimpses of yourself and trying to pull like, okay, maybe it's this. Maybe it's that, because a lot of the first language we get is around our sexuality, and it's easier to connect with that because it's like, okay, that person looks kind of how I feel, how I look, and this person likes women, so maybe I am this person. And also women assign the I don't know about you all, but like, for me, women, like, will assign stuff to you. Like they were like, Oh, you must be this, you must be that. And I'm like, if that's what you like, that's what I am. And so I find that outside of that, there's also something about an unlearning that has to happen. So the I'd like to, like, kind of merge these two questions together. But what are, what are common misconceptions that are held about gender, maybe that you you held yourself, or that I that you just heard and what did you have to unlearn in order to, like, really walk in your identity as you see it today. And Janelle, I'd like to start with you on that
one. So the unlearning, unlearning, yes, the process, well, one of it was, like, you know, my own internalized transphobia, right? Like, and that's the fear, right? That's the fear of this life. It's the fear of this existence, right? And most of my stuff was regarding, like, the repercussions of living that freedom right, of living that truth right, and being afraid of how folks will respond to me and my existence, right? And I'm really grateful to be in spaces and to work in a place where, like, my presence, it is what it is, right? And it's often tokenized right mass to be a part of all of the conversations about transness and all these things, right? But, but also the unlearning of what is a man? What is masculine, right? And understanding what comes up when a black, masculine, presenting person is in a space too, right? And, but, but more so like, you know, for me, instantly it's like, okay, I need to have, like, nobody fat. I need to be, like, pop, popping, right? Like, just big, I'm with the beer. All these things, right? It immediately goes to these, these ideals of what I think it is to be a man, right? When ultimately my journey is my journey, because it's my freedom, it's my liberation, right and and so really being patient with my process of my life experience and just and not and using the other examples that I have in my life as such is examples, you know, and and also, you know, also unlearning the whole binary regarding sexuality, right? Like you know, having these conversations with my trans brothers, who are, you know, engaged in multiple sexual practices, and, like, Yo, we put ourselves in boxes that are so unnecessary, where it's like, let's live this life. We got one. And so for me, it was like, throw the whole book away, right? That's the throw that the history that we were taught, that's throw away the sex ed that we were taught, and literally start to relearn and re experience and reimagine what the possibilities can be For John L in this life, right? And make sure that all of it, that joy is centered, right, that experimentation is centered, right? Because I think part of it is the fear of the unknown, the fear of doing something that's outside of the box. I'm already out the box, right? So I might as well dance all around in the field. I might as well go play in the lake. I might as well climb the tree. Let me just get out there and just enjoy and really letting go of everything that I thought I know and embrace everything that I'm trying to
find out. Lee, did you What when you. Were like, in your in your journey, did, how did like toxic masculinity show up for you, whether it was just, you know, as Janell was mentioning, like trying to acquire masculinity through like these, you know, by any means necessary, or just how, how you encountered that?
Well, you know, it's interesting, because, like, I even when I was a lesbian, I was, I was, I call myself, like, soft Butch, like, Charmin, right? Like, I'm a very soft man, but, and I come from a family of soft men, but the minute I was like, I'm trans, they're like, Oh, well, this is how you talk to women and like, like this. This bizarre masculine came out, and I was like, You don't talk like this. Like, you don't act like this. Like, we're a soft family, so we don't, you don't need to perform now that you need to, like, teach me, like, how to be a man, right? And so I think that was like, pushing back. Just be like, I can do masculinity, like, any way that I want to. And and so at first I was like, Well, do I need to be working out? And is it okay if I have like, more of a dad bod? And is it like, what does it look like? And then finally I just, like, let it all go and like, gave myself permission around, like, what my esthetic was going to be. But then when it came to like, who I was attracted to and who I want to, like, talk to, I was like, wait, I'm attracted to men. I'm attracted to folks that don't have gender. Like, how does that work? Is that okay, you know? And so then it was just like, like, again, you like, you just throw it all out the window anyway. So you might as well just do what the fuck you want. Can we curse on this? So it's just, like, like, just, I just, I just do what I want to do. And as long as I'm not, like, harming people again, it's like, as long as joy is at the center of my life, like, this is the happiest I've ever been, and I want to keep being happy, and so I'm gonna just, you know, keep doing me. And if that means, like, you know, I'm a short, soft trans man, then that's what it is. And so, yeah, you know,
you know. And something else that I've learned in this experience, and even even even when I identify differently, was like being able in my relationships, in particular, with my intimate partnerships, to to be, to still be masculine and also be soft and be sweet and be safe, right? To create an environment of bravery and compassion, honesty and, you know, and fragility, right? Like to be able to, you know, be with emotions, you know, and to be really intentional about that, I think, has been a really, really something that I've centered in particular in those types of dynamics where, you know, initially, you know, I might think that I need to be hard in a certain way when it was like, Nah, because that's not my truth, right? My Truth is I want to talk. Let's talk about let's unpack it, right?
Hold me. I'm tired of being a big spoon. Let me be the little spoon.
I feel you go, I had to give that up. I was like, I gotta stop acting like, I'm not sure, you know, like, like, I'm too short to be acting like I don't want to be a little spoon, yes, cuddle me, damn it. I think that. I think that is really important, because even as, even before identifying as trans, even when I was, you know, identifying as like a masculine lesbian. There were so many harmful things that I was taught about, like, how do you how do we interact with with women? How do we interact with femmes? How are we supposed to carry ourselves in these spaces in order to be seen as that? And so I think I love this conversation around just throwing the book out. Because if there's anything that I would tell someone I'm mentoring, it would be that, it would be like you have to get rid of that in order to kind of find your truth. And a lot of that is informed by masculinity, but it's also informed by blackness as well, right? Because black masculinity is very different and very distinct, and so that's what kind of leads me to this next question around, like, our intersections. So I'd like to ask both of you, like, when you think about yourself as intersections, what are, what are your intersections currently? And I start with you, Lee,
I was gonna have John l do that first. Oh, all right,
go ahead. Of course, throw it at John L he got
it. Well, you know, you had me ringing when you were talking about
black man. Alright, we can stay we can you want to stay there for a
second? Well, no, no, it just took me somewhere, because it's something that comes up, yeah, conversations, especially the time that we're in right now, right and and the reason why I say that is because many of the conversations that I have to that I have in spaces with white folks regarding the humanity of black people. Mm. Is the same exact conversation that I have to have in black spaces about the humanity of black trans lives, yes, and so, you know, that's, that's something that always like, really, that comes very troubling for me, right? Like, you know, a couple months back, there was this, there was this march to Brooklyn Museum just for black women's lives. And all you saw there was black trans women, black women and white folks, and there was, like, very, very few identifiable black, masculine, centered folks, right? So as far as black trans men or black actually, I believe I was with a couple black trans men, so it was like five or six of them represent but you know, black men were not there and and so for me, that's where a lot of work has to happen. And because I strong believer that when we center the humanity and the liberation of black trans lives, inherently, we all inherently black folks, when, inherently women, when inherently, you know, disabled folks in because we're talking about all black trans lives, we're talking about black folks with ability, black folk, black trans folks who don't have limited abilities. All these different things. We center the most marginalized, we center the most burden and the most impacted everybody and so. So when I'm in spaces, I have to be really mindful. And I think I talked about this earlier, of the oppressive identities that I don't hold, right? But I'm aware of the ones that I do hold, but I like to not think of them necessarily as oppressive identities, but these are identities that can and do many spaces prevent me from having optimal freedom. Um, you know, so, um, so, you know, a lot of my work recently has been really centered around having these conversations with cisgender, heterosexual black folks regarding the necessity and loving and embracing all of their siblings and you know, and part of it is the conversations that I know for me and my household, we were Not having. I can't speak for every black household, but I know the conversations we were not having in my household. I know the things that we were afraid of because of things that I know that was taught in my church. Right? In my church, when they start, when they talked about murderers, they talked about murderers, rapists and homosexuals, right? It was like all combined, right, like, and I don't understand how, how violence is the same, is a similar identity to transness, right? When actually transness is beauty, right? And if we get into very indigenous cultures, celebrate in many spaces. This is celebrate the uniqueness, the beauty, the joy that happens when folks embody things outside of the binding right? And so that's what I hold on to right is that this right here, it's beauty and brilliance, but also being really, really mindful that all the things that make me up, or how I show up, right? Like, you know, I came from broken home. I'm black from from a suburb where there's a lot of white folks, right? So there was a lot of racism that impacted my life on a daily basis. You know, having, you know, alcohol and substance you know, issues in the past, you know, you know, going in and out of employment for years, and homelessness and things like that. There are multiple levels to my identity that can be oppressive, but to me, they're the things that lift me up. They're the things that give me multiple lenses to multiple things to really be able to see all sides to a lot of stuff that's going that was a little bit of a ramble. I'm not even sure I answer the question to be
honest with you. So the question was, we were asking, we were I was asking you all like your identities, like describing your intersections basically, and you did describe that. And then we also, we had, like, black masculinity that we're gonna we're gonna bring back. But I just want to talk about intersection for a second and just like, What are your so leave what are your intersections as you see them later.
So I always tell people, like, I'm a black trans man of live. To be an experience. And so I like that taught me that, right? And so that was the community that, like nurtured me initially and and helped me along until I found the other language and other ways of being that were more aligned with who I am. But, you know, again, I'm a person in recovery. That's a big part of my intersection. I think, growing up in the suburbs, being in like, Jack and Jill and all the respectability politics. What does it mean to be in a sorority and now, you know, a full beard of mustache, so just yeah, like, what are those intersections? And then also thinking through now that I, like, pass, or whatever that language is, like, what does it mean when I'm in spaces and people don't read me as trans. And then when I hear like, fucked up shit, or all this, like, when, when do I step up? When do I pull back for safety? What does it mean? Sometimes, when I don't want to always out myself, you know? And so, like, I'm proud of all those intersections. But then sometimes I'm like, and it's different now because of COVID, but before COVID, like, Yeah, well, what? What's my responsibility in spaces to and representing all of my intersection out all of those intersections as well. And so, yeah, how am I going to address that once the world opens up too? So
that is, I think that is a question that as black trans people, we do ask ourselves, right? Like, where, where do I step up? Because our safety has to be first, and we have to like constantly be considering our safety in all these spaces, and it's also a constant calculation, right? Is a constant calculation that's happening as we building space and calculating what our what our safety, what our risk is. I'm gonna go slide over to the comments Rasheem, who is the host and owner of the counter narrative has been given some amens to what y'all been saying. So she's been saying, Speak on it. She has a mic drop, and she has a really great question, talking about the difference between tolerance and acceptance and celebration, and so thinking about, what's the difference between being tolerated or accepted, as they say, and actually being celebrated. And why is it important to be celebrated over being
tolerated? And I'll start with you. Lee,
um, I think so. That's what we do at Makers lab. That's what I do every day. Is like I celebrate Black, queer and trans folks because I want to celebrate myself. And I'm I'm worthy of celebration. I'm worthy of joy and, and that's, that's why I've been put on this planet. And so that's the work that I'm supposed to be doing. Because, like, and look, I DC government, they have a ways to go, but at the same time, like, I work for a very friendly, like, agency, and and I get to show up as myself. But there are some moments where I know I'm just being like, tolerated or accepted, right? So if that's where I'm spending most of my day, I was like, I need space where I get to show up and act a fool or be vulnerable, or just whatever, whatever space I'm in that day, be supported and loved in the ways that I need to be loved and and I'm often creating those spaces because those are spaces that I need, and I think we should celebrate every day, even if it's a small things, like, because I used to like, you know, have these, like, big parties and be like, black pride, black pride, right? Which is awesome, still my favorite weekend of the year. But like, what does it mean to hold space and celebrate myself and my life every day? Because I'm not guaranteed anything, right? And so how do I make that a daily practice?
John L, same question,
tolerance and acceptance versus celebration? Yes. What came up for me instantly is when I was thinking about a conversation I have a lot regarding, like, the difference between, like, allyship and collaboration and CO conspirators, right? And so, like, you know, one takes work, actual work, right? One takes actual effort. And I think, you know, a lot of systems, a lot of spaces like to acknowledge, tokenize, do performative justice or performative efforts, but are not really actually celebrating the humanity and the brilliance and beauty which is us and so, you know, so to me, the difference is actually centering. It's not about checking boxes, right? It's not about it's not about, oh, we got one. Oh, we have a we have a gender neutral bathroom. We made sure that we we hire at least one person from this so we can say that we have representation, but also eliminate power from this person's role. And so I believe that in celebrating transness is not only centering it, but also understanding that trans folks can be experts in things other than transness, right? And so it's like, oh, it's like, it's like, the whole realm of like, Oh, we're going to add all these diversity inclusion officers, and that's where we're going to get our black folks. So that's where we're going to get our trans folks. But it's like, oh, we don't know any black actual engineers. Um, we don't, you know, we know there's no black, trans, you know, doctors that we can employ. You know, why do we have to be experts only in our oppression,
right?
We can't be expert like all other areas of life, you know? And so for me, that's also a way of celebrating us. It's not just celebrating our oppression, celebrating the fact that we are human, we are brilliant, we are beautiful in everything.
Yes, I'm tired of just being booked in February and June, like, I can't book me year round. Sam, you are proud of it gonna be black over here. Like I got, I have a lot of expertise in other areas of a whole artist as well. But, yeah, that's real. So, so Lee, what is what is centering? What is Centering look like for you, what, where and adding on to that, like in what spaces do you feel centered
in the spaces I create. That's why I created so I can feel centered and like, because there I've just always been on the mindset, like, if I don't see something, I'm going to create it. And if I need it, if I need it, I'm sure there's like, 50 other people that do as well. And so I definitely feel safe or safer in the spaces that I create. And everybody also thinks like, center myself in community spaces, but also like centering myself in my house, right? And what does it mean to have a space that I'm in every day where I can like, like, rest and and take care of myself and remove myself like, and I don't really like watching news or engage with the news, but when I'm like, if I feel like I'm being bombarded by, like, negative images and things like that, like, where do I go? Like, to protect myself, right? So there's the centering for community spaces, and then like, the centering just for my own personal space has become really important to me as
well. That perfectly answered the question. I think our, I think we became space makers out of that necessity, right? It's not, it wasn't necessarily like I want to make sure that people have space. It's like, I need space. One of my favorite quotes is James Baldwin, and the space in which I fit won't exist until I make it. And that's like, that's that's how I go about community work, and that's how I go about my art. It's like, we have to make that space for ourselves, and by creating space for ourselves we are, we just create space for everyone else. Going back to John L's point about how our liberation inevitably leads to the liberation of other folks. I want to talk just for a quick second about being trans masculine, because a lot of the things we talk about like black trans as a whole. But there is also something specific about trans masculine spaces, something that I see a lot when people are making spaces for gender minorities, it'll say something like women and non binary folk and trans folk in this space. And when I see that, I don't assume that I belong there, right? I assume that that is for women identified folks or people that are very close to that. So what is it like having space specifically for, uh, you are black, trans masculine identity. Or do you need that space at all?
I need the space. But do I have that space? Probably not. I mean, I have, like, you know, one on one relationships, maybe sometimes three of us at a time, but nothing like where and again. This is like, pre COVID, but it wasn't like, oh, there's like 15 of us, like coming together for like brunch or anything like that. Like, I don't necessarily feel that same like type of community or like group connection, but I definitely have, like, one on one relationships with a lot of people that I really value, but not group.
I agree with that. I agree with the fact that there's not the space isn't really there. You know, I've had a lot of conversations about this because, you know, black trans women have a lot of spaces for each other out of necessity, right, out of the violence that those folks disproportionately are impacted by on a daily basis. It's like, you know, the community healing, the community survival, it's a real thing. But I've noticed that, you know, as far as black trans masculine center spaces, I mean, there's a couple pages I follow that bring me a lot of joy, right? But you know, much, much like Lee, much of that comes from these one on one relationships that I have, right? Because much of the community does overlap, right? So much, so much of the folks that I do have in my life do identify. I as, you know, stud or masculine center folks, or butch lesbian, you know, or just queer, you know, non binary, free and you know, so in their space for all of that. And I think that that's important too. And you know, I will say is that there's value in the collective community, but there's also a lot of value in being seen in those moments that I had those one on one conversations with my brothers, right there is, there is a undeniable sense of being seen in such a way that no one else could ever see. It's just a very, very different experience. And it's also, it's, it's because, also we're not seeing a lot, even when you think about things like media we're not seeing, you know, we got Brian Michael out there, and, I think Marquis antique, right? But that's very minor, very small, and it's not really out there a lot, you know, you know, where is, where's our Laverne Cox, right? Um, and so, you know, I think, I think there's still opportunity. I think we're still working towards more visibility, and I think in doing so, more spaces will inherently be created. But I think, you know, I think there may be some responsibility that might need to be taken to, like, really start creating those spaces, not only just for us, right, but for our future little siblings coming up, you know what I mean? So they have that, so they can be seen, so they can be heard. They can have, you know, that mentorship, they can have, that that community collaboration, that community joy, where they feel, ultimately, see through and through by one another.
Well, Alright, y'all, and all we gotta do, we have set we said it out loud. Now y'all, we'll let y'all know I ain't say nothing. You already once you say, once you, once you identify as a need, and we've already identified ourselves as people that meet needs of the community. It's just like, that's what you've done. And Rasheem is said, let me know when y'all find or create that space so I can send some of my bros there. Does visibility of trans life decrease with trans folks whose goal is it to pass that was a good question. I was actually my follow up question. I was talking to a bro about this, about black trans masculinity, and his theory was something that I agreed with. Was one of the reasons why we don't have as much black trans masculine visibility, is this, is this concept of a lot of people transition so that they can pass and once that happens, then they are not identifying as much as a trans person. What do you all think about that? Do you agree? Do you have a counter? Lee, I'll start with you. Do I agree
that it happened or, I mean, I mean, I mean, I've seen it happen, and I've even wondered about it for myself, right? Like, like, what does it mean? I mean, we're still black in America, right? So life is what it is. But if I could, like, make it a little bit easier where I'm just read a certain way, and I can, you know, go, clock in and clock out and just go about my life is like, there is something appealing about that, but I also know that's actually doesn't fit with who I am, right? And so currently I can, I can only speak for right now, who knows what will happen in five years. But like, right now at my job, like, I'm very visible and very, very much out about being a trans person, right? And we, you know, we do programming for the city. So I'm just like, Well, why? How come this person's not in the conversation? How come this isn't happening, right? And just loud as hell. So I think that's always going to be important to me. And kind of like, yeah, like, take taking a step back from the community that's like, nurtured me and supported me. That's not something that I want to do. So
I agree, as a person who really thinks about equity and centering community healing and community support, I understand the path for some folks, but that's the path for some folks, but also to know that no matter where I end up today, tomorrow, the next day for me, it is important to always be there for the folks that are coming up, right and so, you know, just for myself, um, you know, I think, I think there this conversation That happened a lot of spaces regarding trans men, and the reason why you know certain things aren't present for them is because the goal is passability, and it's more difficult for trans women. But I will also say, but who was there for you through your journey, right? And so And how would your journey have been different? So if spaces existed, right? So, if there was a space where resources were shared, if there was a space where joy was sharing, who was there space where collaboration happened, would your journey have been different? And what I know for myself is that if spaces were present for me, I think my journey may have been different. Seeds would have been planted in a different way. You know, I would have had a level of mentorship that I have now. But just think about it. If there was something that was already happening, right? If there was already this spot where it was like, black trans brothers are brilliant, right? It was like, you know, every other Friday from five to seven, that was the spot right, where folks came together to celebrate their journey. Right, share their story. Right, to be there for folks that may need some help or some guidance or support or resources. How would, how would that shape or change things so
well? Now you've named it, so we've already got that. We already got that.
So I got the buttons.
These all buttons. I got the socials. So we so black trans brothers are brilliant. All right. So shout out to the counter narrative show for birth in this before, before we wrap, first of all, I want to thank both of y'all, not only for just doing the show, but for what you add to my life and my journey and my identity and all of those things. I was very grateful for y'all. And I also like to thank a really big thank you to the wonderful Rasheem, who is the host and the creator of the counter narrative, for not only allowing the show, but also just stepping back and allowing us to completely take over the space to do the show. Thank you for that. Where can people find you? What are you up to? Where can people find you? As we sign off, Lee, I'll start with you. Go ahead,
right now, black in space. That's I'm still in space. I came back for this, this interview to see you, because I love and miss you. So go to black in space, B, L, K, N, S, P, A, C, e.com, and we're also at Black in space on the gram, and that's how you can find, like, all the things that we're up to. And then we also have, like, black in space TV, so you can actually watch some of our content, so you can see what we've been creating over the course of the year. Course of the year. So black and space.com
hit that up. Well, you can follow me on IG, beyond the basics with an X. And also, you know if you look for someone to facilitate conversations or do some consulting work with within your organizations regarding dismantling oppression, bias, racism, transphobia, beyond the basics with the x.org Yeah, it's being fun.
Alright, I'm just putting y'all stuff in there, and I am Ty Coleman. You can find me ty coleman.com and also on Facebook, and this has been the counter narrative show of Please join us again in November, where I will gladly hand over the reins back to Rasheem, because this is a lot, and you can find her at the at the counter narrative show. Thank you all so much. Thank my panelists and everyone else watching and commenting. Have a wonderful Saturday.
I need to know everything, who in the what in the where. I need everything. Trust me. I hear what you're saying, but allegiance. Know what you're telling me. I'm Curious George, I happen to pause for five and a horse. I'm ready for war. I'm coming for throws eternal with ghosts. I need to know everything you.