Ian (00:06) from a psychological perspective of like you know, part of our makeup and being is to be self aware and to be self reflective. That makes what makes us very different. But in some contexts, it's very interesting. Tori (00:18) self-awareness, Britney does not know her. Like there is no self-awareness for Brittany, I think. Like she has never heard the term. Hello Overthinkers! This is episode seven of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Let's before we get into the episode, let's just do a little check in. How are you doing, Ian? Welcome. Right? Like we'll just have a regular a regular intro. Ian (01:40) Thank you as always, Tori. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I'm doing good overall. I will say I was watching the episode last night with Courtney and it was maybe the most stark difference in experience we've ever had. Like at the end of the episode last night, she's like, I feel so relaxed after it. And as I mentioned pre-production, I went straight for the ibuprofen. you know, I've recovered from the headache, you know. I'm doing I'm doing better this morning, but I was sort of realizing like I was sitting there thinking last night, and I've been around people in my life that, you know, just do not understand sports, like do not understand why people like them, do not understand why they're popular. Tori (02:18) Mm-hmm. Ian (02:19) And I sort of was like, my gosh, this is what it's like for them when I talk about sports. And I had this sort Tori (02:25) To just be Ian (02:26) of epiphany of like, I just don't get it. So that was an interesting Tori (02:30) Yeah. Yeah. To just be like consuming something that just doesn't connect or click in the same way. Where it's yes, Ian (02:36) It in any way, yes. Tori (02:38) yes. You're you're like in sports, you're seeing the plays happen, you're seeing the movement, you understand the coaching decisions. Ian (02:45) I understand the community of it rallying behind something. And then and then there are people who like you like, I don't understand why people like sports at all. How do you sit there and watch people kick a ball for an hour and a half? And I'm like, How Tori (02:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ian (02:58) do you sit here and watch people argue with each other for 45 minutes with zero resolution? Other Tori (03:05) Yeah. Ian (03:05) than they're gonna do it again the next episode. So that was epiphany for me. Hmm. Yes. Tori (03:09) I'll have to start saving the memes to you because it's like, I can't wait to go home and unwind with my relaxation techniques. And it's like, then it's just like all of the women screaming at each other, like da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, like cuddled up, like going to bed. Yeah. Yeah. And Ian (03:20) I saw one on TikTok this morning. Yes. Tori (03:25) I've gotta say, number one, this episode gave So much. I have two pages I my hand could not keep up my I I my hand was cramping. I'm writing so much and I'm like fresh off of writing it. I actually watched it like right before we recorded. 'cause first time well Ian (03:43) For the second time or first? Okay. Tori (03:45) because speaking of sports Panthers were playing Thursday night football last night. I just Ian (03:48) They did play last night, yeah. They night. Tori (03:50) didn't get a chance to watch. So I am like fresh off the press or you know Hot off the press, Ian (03:55) It is. Tori (03:56) right? It is right in my mind. I have so many notes, so much happened in this episode. Are you ready to get started? Ian (04:05) And simultaneously, they did the least amount in this episode that they've done in any from like a physical standpoint. Tori (04:10) Here's the thing. Yeah. Here's the thing. That's why these women are f so fantastic. This whole episode was one party. Sometimes they'll have parties and you'll see the next day in a whole episode. Maybe like it could like they're giving us so much. It's a treasure trove of content with these women. And I just I can't get enough. And I knew it. I knew as soon as the episode is starting and They are in the car on the way. It's like, they didn't even mess around with like getting ready. Like they knew that they had so much to get through in this episode. They didn't even mess around with any kind of lead up or build up. Straight into the party, starts with the party, ends with the party. There's so much. Okay. You know, normally we do like to give a little bit of a recap for those that don't watch the show. I gotta be honest, this one's gonna be really hard to recap. I'm gonna maybe just give more themes of like what's going on, and then we'll get into the smaller, maybe nitty-gritty of it all. Because, like we just said, the whole episode is at one party. so the idea of the party is Heather is throwing sh what she called her Jupiter year party, which the whole theme of it, it you already have thoughts. Yeah. Ian (05:28) I had to Google what a Jupiter year was. Tori (05:32) she does explain it. She does explain it. It's all about the astrological signs. Like everyone comes dressed up as their sign, basically. which already had some really funny moments. Like Mary being like, I'm not gonna dress up. What am gonna bring? Like scales cut to literally Whitney holding like just as scales, like she actually did. I thought that that was very funny to Ian (05:54) Yeah, it was funny. Tori (05:55) to your favorite castmate. It's credit the the producers and editors. so I'm not gonna get into like every like the small bits of like everyone catching up because we will touch on it because there's things with like Meredith and her husband comes for like a second. We'll get into why Meredith and Seth have a problem with Britney. Here's the other thing. it's hard to recap this episode too, because basically the what we'll say is the whole episode is about Everyone confronting each other and calling out each other on like you said this behind my back and someone told me about it. And the other major theme is everyone has a problem with Britney this episode, which again, this is the opinion part of me, but I think deservedly so. Brittany's been doing too much. but I'll I will again continue a little bit. We've got psychic readings in this episode. Everyone's going to get their signs. Ian (06:48) The Mystic Tori (06:49) read the mystic. That's what yeah, maybe not a psychic, a mystic. She's she's talking about their signs and Ian (06:51) I actually took note of that. Cause I was like, okay. Tori (06:56) like what that means for them and they're holding it to be truth. we've got the Britney and Seth, we've got Angie taking her reading very literally, 'cause the mystic told her she's a truth teller. Ian (07:10) I wanna get 'cause that's such an interesting phenomenon that takes place there, but I do want to get Tori (07:14) Yeah. Ian (07:14) into that a little bit more. Tori (07:15) Yep. Angie takes her truth telling to become the truth fairy, as she dubs herself, and she decides to just tell everybody what everyone has been saying. So she goes ahead and lets Bronwyn know what everyone was saying at the dinner the other night. including like Brittany pulling up the deed and Lisa saying that her boyfriend's a PR stunt, all of this kind of stuff. Britney will be a conversation within itself because Brittany, the way that she reacted to everyone kind of confronting her, is a conversation on its own. the other thing about the party is it's the astrological signs or whatever, but she's also introducing her new boyfriend to to all of the women for the first time. Like some of them have met, but this is like his first his christening into housewives. friendships and parties and stuff. And so throughout the episode, Heather keeps referencing, like, I just want to stay in my love bubble. Like you can see her walking away from confrontation with her boyfriend. She's like, I'm not gonna mess with that. Like, you know, she does get roped in a little bit to it, but she's really trying to protect the boyfriend, the relationship. It's like her party. She's trying to have a good time. But everyone is being as messy as possible. which is another conversation, the definition of messy, Whitney and Angie get into what messy means, what accountability means. Mary confronts Brittany. That's a whole thing. Angie and Whitney have a f I mean, there's just so everyone's fighting. I mean, I can't I can't go into each little detail, or that'll be the whole episode. We won't be able to talk about anything. Everyone is fighting in this episode. So it is Heather's Jupiter year confrontation party. That's what I'm calling it. Ian (09:27) Yeah, yeah, I I did love that again the producers made a literal bubble around her and then literally popped it in the end when she Tori (09:32) Yeah. Yes, yes. Ian (09:34) was when she could no longer avoid getting roped into it. So what's what's most important i in in all of this chaos? that there was. What is most important that we start with in terms of themes or the human behavior side of this? Because there are so many different things you could Tori (09:56) There are so many things. I really do want to talk about Brittany. One little side note, because this isn't a whole thing, but ha I have enjoyed how the hypocrisy and bullshit has now just Ian (10:07) Mm-hmm. Tori (10:07) been plucked to just be something like That's just our group. Like it started as like a diss or an insult or whatever. But even Whitney, Braun, when they're all like, Well, we're back on some hypocrisy and bullshit. You know, like now they've like taken a different ownership of that song. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yep. Ian (10:24) The irony of that too, because Bronwyn took it as a direct insult when Meredith and Lisa were saying that it was aimed at the whole group and now the whole group is essentially using it as slogan. It's Tori (10:34) Is actually using it. Yeah. Ian (10:36) the irony is insane to me. Yeah, a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tori (10:38) It's come pretty full circle in only like two episodes. So it d really didn't take long. okay, but I really want to talk about Brittany because I really feel like this was Britney's reckoning of of like we're on episode seven and she's Ian (10:54) Mm-hmm. Tori (10:54) finally getting her feet held to the fire on like all these kind of like dirty little things she's been doing in the background. Ian (11:01) Well, I'm curious, you know, this might be have some historical relevance like throughout, you know, the show's history, so you may be able to provide some insight in there. But I think the the most interesting thing to me is you were talking about messy, and they were talking Tori (11:15) Mm-hmm. Ian (11:15) about it in the show, is like what makes 'cause I have my thoughts on this, but I'm curious from your perspective as as a consumer of this, like, what makes Brittany more messy than the rest of them? Because clearly in this episode, like Usually you can find an alliance. Right? You can Tori (11:31) Mm-hmm. Ian (11:32) find one person agrees with one other person. They have some sort of alliance, even if it's just one other person in the group. Brittany has literally none of that in this episode. Tori (11:41) No, and they and they did a little chart. I know you like the charts. When they they put the visual, they they scratched out everyone Ian (11:45) I it loved it. They scratched out people, they absolutely did. Tori (11:48) that Britney has been like burning bridges with. And it's basically I mean it's almost everyone at this point. Ian (11:54) So, but what makes that different? Cause you could do the same thing with Lisa and Meredith, right? Where they're sc so what makes it different? Is is my question. Tori (12:01) Here's the thing. Okay, now this is housewife specific. Okay. This is not the human behavior discussion. No, I just want to clarify: like, if anyone's listening, don't take this as the sign to be messy. Because what I want to say with Britney is it's like the wrong type of messy. Like she and the thing about Britney, and again, disclaimer. This is my opinion as a viewer, okay? This isn't like my I I don't have the therapist hat on right now. I'm just reading Brittany as a castmate. Because she comes off as so desperate and thirsty to be a full-time housewife. the there's a scene in this episode where they're all at the table where Bronwyn, Angie, Kwai, Britney, they're all being like Why are you coming after Bronwyn while she's going through the divorce? Like, why are you looking at her deed? Why are you looking at like the trust? You don't understand. You're trying nincum Ian (13:02) You nin poop. Tori (13:04) poop. Yeah, Bronwyn calls Brittany a nincom poop. Says she has bad breath. Yeah, I mean, a lot happens. Again, it's just flying, flying, flying. Like, how do we how do we discuss? But they're all like it's creepy, it's weird, and they're not wrong. It comes off as just weird. Like she and I think it's her delivery too. She comes in and she's like, well, remember when Bronwyn told us that she wasn't getting a divorce? And Bronwyn, that's when she's you're a nincompoop. I said we were mediating outside of the court. She's like, literally, because of people like you who like to dig into this kinds of stuff. But Brittany's response to that is, you weave a web of lies. And it's like, no, girl, like this is about you doing weird digging and trying to piece it together where it's like, this doesn't need to be done. This is not the mess. It's it's like fabricating mess. It's coming across as it's her being like, I'm the detective. I found the deed. I'm so clever. He he he. And it's like, no, you're just looking weird. Like no one was asking you to do that. There was no red flag to do that. She then turns to Kwai and is like, and I know a lot about you. And it's like, you're just proving the point. You're being weird. You're doing research on people. In a group where it's like they this unspoken thing, like that's not the research you do. You see something in the tabloids that's already pressed, like, okay, let's talk about that. But this weird digging just to find drama, like just to fabricate drama, it reads desperate. And I think it's so off-putting to the women. And I for me as a viewer, I find it off put like I think it's weird too. Cause she's just, she's grasping. And that's not even to get into her, like, my gosh. This is a again, that's the messy housewife and then like her and Mary is a whole thing and like she's just not doing well. And if she alienates herself with every cast member, they're not gonna want her as full time. Like she's reaching so hard to be one thing, but she's actually digging herself into a bigger hole. So again, some of that can be applicable, the whole Burning Bridges thing, but in terms of like a housewife and the right type Ian (15:23) Mm-hmm. Tori (15:23) of mess, that's That's what rubs me wrong about Brittany. Ian (15:29) And I think this is where I sort of landed too, which is really largely what you're saying is that, you know, when we do things for the purpose of doing them without, you know, sort of an underlying or relational intent, it Tori (15:42) Yeah. Ian (15:42) often misses the mark. And while you and I have talked about this and this is you know, I've had to understand this that this is like this is a business, this is a show. But the only reason it does work to a degree is because there are genuine relationships embedded within the show. And Tori (15:56) Mm-hmm. Ian (15:57) I think what you're seeing is somebody who doesn't is not using the embedded relationships as a way to be the right type of messy, but is just trying to find the mess regardless of the relationship. And so I think that's the part to me that's really interesting. It's like this, you know, there's this theory of like relational frame theory where humans relate to objects, things or people because we get something from them. And it's interesting. It's like she is only giving negative gossip and everything that's coming back is negative. And but even you look at like Quiet and Whitney, they've had, you know, their back and forth and stuff. But it was all based on the foundation of of them being super close at one point. I Tori (16:37) Mm-hmm. Ian (16:37) honestly, if you ask me right now who Brittany was friends with Or who she's a friend of to get on the show, I have no idea. I could not tell you, but I think that Tori (16:47) right. Right. Ian (16:48) exemplifies what you're saying in terms of the right kind of messy is there is not any sort of she's she's not even like I think a lot of what we see in this episode is mess being created from feelings being hurt at some point. Tori (17:03) Yeah. Ian (17:03) Maybe Britney's feelings have been hurt, but it's almost like in every situation, she's not saying you hurt me, so I'm gonna bring this up to you or I'm gonna confront this. It's like, no, I'm just bringing this up, whether I'm hurt or not. And that to me is the interesting piece of it. Tori (17:19) That is perfect. That's a really good sum because yes, all of her mess seems like it's just because she wants to use it as a leg up to like further her own status. Again, it's like, why are you bringing this up? Like Whitney even said, Bronwyn's been a friend to you. Like why what what is the purpose of this? And yes, it's mess for the sake of mess. And a lot of it does feel fabricated. Even like I'll give another example as to why this is like Britney's kind of MO. They gave a little bit of a flashback to last year's reunion when it comes to Meredith and her husband. Did you I don't know how much of that you like retained because so much more happened after Ian (17:58) Well that was like the cheating allegation or whatever. Tori (18:00) and and Britney live and they go, and you have proof? And she goes, Well, not proof that would hold up in court. It's like, so what are you doing? Like why why are you doing this? everything just feels yeah, it's mess for the sake of mess. And yeah. no relational construct to be building or taking away from. And so everyone's just like, What is your problem? Like, yeah. Ian (18:24) Yeah. this is purely speculative, but think as much slack as Whitney has gotten and as much as I I perceive that people on the show don't believe her to be genuinely reflecting or being accountable, there's sort of a extra layer of that with Brittany to me where it's like we you know, we've kind of talked about the idea of accountability and stuff, and at each moment it's like where does cause even wasn't it at the end of the episode she was like needing to get feedback on why what she said was hurtful to people? And I found Tori (18:58) Yes. Ian (18:59) that to be really interesting where it was like you know, it it it's one thing to be aiming for a certain goal, like to get on a show, to get a spot. I think it's also interesting to see sort of the dynamics and I think we all fall into this in our different, you know, blind spots, right? We all have blind spots as people of things that we do that we can't always see and how they impact people. but it's really interesting when you're getting that feedback and it's just like not registering. And so at what point do you like you're saying, do you you know, ev whether you alienate everybody on the show or not, at what point do you get to this place of acceptance where this Person may not have the ability or wherewithal to reflect in the moment, to slow down, to pause. Like it's just and I again I have no idea if that's true for her or not, but it's just an observation in in the context of what happened. And it's a very interesting thing from a psychological perspective of like you know, part of our makeup and being is to be self aware and to be self reflective. That makes what makes us very different. But in some contexts, it's very interesting. Tori (20:07) self-awareness, Britney does not know her. Like there is no self-awareness for Brittany, I think. Like she has never heard the term. Because like every time she's confronted with any of this stuff, she's like, Well, I can't believe that you would think that or feel that. And don't you see what my true intentions were? Like, I was pulling up the deed because I was professionally curious. my gosh. I literally I'm like. I wrote down that she was saying so much stuff that I was just like the twist and the spin to justify this weird behavior that you're doing, and then to be like, clutch my pearls, someone took it the wrong way. That I'm trying Ian (20:49) Yeah. Tori (20:50) to read into their divorce and understand their trust and who got what money during these proceedings. Like I'm shocked that people don't understand my motive. And so it's just like this constant deflection. And yeah, she's I don't think there's any self-awareness. And that again, maybe I mean, I'm feeling so agitated with Britney. Again, I'm straight off the episode, so I'm still, you know, coming in hot. But like it has been like three seasons of that. She didn't have much self-awareness. Like it's great that she's connected, reconnected with her daughter, but for the first two seasons, it was like, I can't believe my daughter's mad at me for wanting to date men. You know, like it's just kind of always this theme of like, I'm gonna choose myself because this is what feels good and is nice. And if you read it wrong, then you don't understand my intentions for myself. Or like if it hurts your feelings, you don't understand. And so I just think that the women are sick of that. Ian (21:46) and I think so we all write these these defense mechanisms that we have to protect ourselves from emotional pain, physical pain, but mostly emotional, relational, psychological pain. One of the phrases that she mutters at the end of the show that I thought was and it it follows exactly what you're saying is this idea if you could just let me explain. Right? We were talking about Tori (22:05) huh. Ian (22:05) in the past the if then fallacy and I think there are, you know people who have this this belief that if they could just explain, if they could just hear me correct or hear me differently, then this would all go away. And that misses the relational component, right? It it turns it turns sort of a relationship into a litigation of like if you can Tori (22:25) Mm-hmm. Ian (22:25) hear the correct argument, and then it turns a a literal argument into right or wrong, you know, good or bad, factual or In factual, and that completely misses the relational element. I think that's a part of what this is, is it's so transactional with her. Is like it's just a transaction. Me looking this up is a transaction of proving you did something that you weren't honest about. Transactional, right? It it again goes back to missing the relational piece. Somebody hearing me correctly is not relational because there's no reciprocity. I'm not listening to what they're saying to explain it differently. They just need to hear me differently. And that Tori (23:04) Yes. Ian (23:06) That is something that will close a lot of people off, right? As we all understand one of one of the biggest barriers to communication is not being or feeling heard. And Tori (23:16) Right. Ian (23:17) and it this is just I think exemplifying all of that to the highest degree. Tori (23:22) The extreme. Yes, you're so right. Cause she's not listening to anything anybody else is saying. Like literally Bronwin had just gotten in a fight with her and even Bronwyn steps in at one point and is like, You need to stop. Like you and I have our own issues, but you're not understanding like this y you're doing too much. Like she's fighting then with Mary, and she's like, You you really need to stop. Like we can fight about our own stuff later, but this is too much. and she still turns it as if she's the victim in that scenario. Because again, like you said, like yeah, it's it's right on the money because it's like but I but Mary needs to hear why I wasn't wrong. Ian (24:02) Or that if I if it was taken wrong, why it was taken wrong. So Tori (24:09) Yeah. Ian (24:10) for for people who are listening, like one of the best things that you can do in in situations like this for for just having a better way of communicating with people is and I've even tried to keep myself from doing it in this episode, is to do a little exercise where when you listen to somebody, notice how quickly you want to respond and then how quickly you're listening for a moment to respond to what you have to say or for what you want to say rather than what's being said. And I think Tori (24:40) Yeah. Ian (24:40) that's such important exercise I even caught myself doing in this episode of like, I want to jump in, but can I actually listen without having a pre prepared response? And then when somebody's done talking, then can you so that's just a little thing that if you want to take something from all of this chaos, Tori (24:55) Ha ha. Ian (24:57) Listening, like really trying to listen without having an intended or planned response is a great way for you to practice some awareness and accountability and self-reflection. Tori (25:06) Yes, because I'll be honest, that talking about Britney or Listen, as therapists, we have to practice that a lot. It's still a very hard skill. Or like you can turn it on in the therapist's office, but the in real life, of course, you want to like respond or whatever. But yeah, I have so many thoughts about Britney that I just want to get them all out. you know, it's funny because we have talked off camera or like off podcast or even on here too, but it's like how people can develop such strong opinions for these women. And I've gotta say this episode was a strong emotional like reaction to Brittany. Like I I was feeling it. Like I'm so annoyed with her. Ian (25:47) It's so interesting. So and we can make this short or we can talk about this as much Tori (25:52) Mm-hmm. Ian (25:52) as we need, but it's so interesting that you say it because I've as as you're talking about it, I'm thinking like, okay, what makes me like dislike an athlete? Right? Like what makes me Tori (25:59) Mm-hmm. Ian (26:00) and I think one of the things that stands out to me most with and obviously this is an imperfect thing for me looking at somebody from afar, I think one of the things that's most important for me when I look at somebody developing opinion on them is their congruence. Do they act the way that they talk, the way that you know, do are they the things they say the things that they do. And I'll be honest with you, all of these women, like them being sort of like them changing up in a whim, them talking badly about somebody, like that is very congruent to their what they say and what they do. So I but I think it's limiting my ability to form an opinion in a way that is substantial. But I think also, and again, you tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I think the frame of reference that you're coming from is like a housewife that is a positive contributor is somebody that is like more congruent, who is not just digging up dirt for the sake of digging up dirt. They have more sustenance. They have more to bring her value. And it's interesting to me that that could again, yeah, you can speak for your own experience, but for me I'm that's one of the things that I'm finding is like I I'm having a hard time forming opinions because it's like this is as as congruent as I've ever seen a group of people and it's just fascinating to me. Tori (27:15) Yeah. Ian (27:16) you know, sometimes like and again I'll use athletes in particular, will have this image of being one way and then you read a story or hear something about them being another way. And maybe that's just again, me not consuming a lot of you know, tabloids or or reality culture, but I I just think that's a a very interesting component for me as I watch it. Tori (27:34) Here's the thing, it's fine to bring up dirt, okay? but some women again, they can do it really well. and that's even referencing like maybe other shows and stuff like that. Some of them can do it well. What is really frustrating with Britney is that it's it's okay, this will be our shift maybe, is into the accountability versus defensiveness part. Where I think what makes a good housewife too is when you just kind of own it. Or like if you did something dirty to be like, Yeah, that that was dirty. Or like, I don't know why I did. Like a lot of women, even on other franchises, like they get good at being messy, stirring the pot, and but then owning it or and or apologizing for it. Like last week we talked about what's a true apology or not a true apology. some women when their feet are held to the fire, they know when to say, look, that was maybe too far or that wasn't right. I shouldn't have brought it to this person. I should have brought it to you. Like they can own it more so that it Housewives has a different version of resolution. You know, again, if we're gonna talk about the the season of it all, the business of it all, resolution looks a lot different. They'll fight again about it at the reunion. But it's the ownership of that was like if Bronwyn would have said, Why did you do that? That was so messy. I've been trying to be a good friend. And if she could have been like, You're right, I looked that up before San Francisco, you know, or like before we had really clicked, I appreciated you coming to my daughter's thing. I shouldn't have gone that far with it. Like that would have been the accountability that so many of these housewives reference is like they just want to own what you said and and to acknowledge why it was either a misstep or hurtful or whatever. It's the acknowledgement, but Britney is so is very bad at that. Because she gets so defensive. Ian (29:38) So let me and this is again more of a question about the the culture of reality TV. I've also noticed maybe this is a false pattern, but I've also noticed that people react differently in this show from what I see. Is if let's say, you know, Britney did the same behavior, didn't take accountability, but she came back at Bronwyn was like, Well, I did that because and then filled in the blank with something that Bronwyn did to hurt her. To me, I've seen it sort of that like i if it's if it's sort of purposeful even if it's to get back at a previous hurt, that even seems to be more acceptable than just digging for digging's sake. Is that a fair observation? Tori (30:18) Yeah, I think that that would be fair because but number one, Britney didn't have that experience with Bronwyn. But like that so that's Ian (30:22) But that's what I'm saying. She with anybody. Tori (30:24) a good example of like, okay, w we can we can maybe I don't know, Britney was throughout this whole episode, so it's hard to Ian (30:31) Yeah. Tori (30:31) say, like, let's move on from Britney because it was all about her and her mess, basically. but for example, to talk about another woman, like Whitney and Lisa and the mentioning of like the husbands, okay, and the husband's giving information to their wives and then kind of like using it against each other in that way. that was Whitney justifying well that actually that's that's Lisa and Whitney justifying them being mean to each other. that is the tit for tat. Because right now, and or in the pa like, they're just not vibing. They're in an active fight. So they're gonna keep going back and forth and back and forth with Brittany. It's like Again, everyone's like, why are you doing this? It's just coming out of the like f seemingly for no reason except to elevate herself in the group. So yeah, I think in terms of like housewife behavior, that's fair. They do go a little bit back and forth with each other. but Britney just doesn't have that. So that's why it reads as so bizarre. Ian (31:31) It's in couples counseling they talk about the idea of fighting fair and it seems like Tori (31:35) Uh-huh. Ian (31:36) some of these unwritten rules for them is fighting fair is that if you're gonna dig something up, like have a reason for it. Like Tori (31:42) Yeah. Ian (31:43) have you know, if somebody's hurt you or if somebody has done something that has negatively impacted you, whether it's PR or otherwise, like have a reason for it. It brings me back to there's this book on leadership called Know Your Why. And it has nothing to do with this, but as you were saying that it's like does Britney know her why of why she's doing this, other than For purely personal gain in the show. And clearly there is again this like subcultural expectation within this group that that is too far. If it's Tori (32:09) Yeah. Ian (32:10) only to gain for yourself and doesn't have any sort of relational component, that's too much. It's we can cause I think the person that I found most fascinating in this episode. was Angie. Tori (32:24) Yeah, okay, let's talk about Angie, because you mentioned that you wanted to come back to the truth fairy. Ian (32:29) So I I mean, if you look at this episode, like B Britney was the flashy sort of like everyone's focused on her, but I mean, who essentially put down the gasoline before Before Britney lit the fire, was Angie. I mean, Angie was the one at the beginning of the episode, throughout the episode, going in and telling people, and so here are the psychological points of this that are so interesting, right? So, one, the mystic says that you're a truth teller, and we do this all the time where we justify or rationalize behavior because somebody validates how we feel. Angie Tori (33:03) Yeah. Ian (33:04) clearly sees herself as a truth teller to some degree, and as soon as it was validated, Now it becomes an obligation. Tori (33:13) And isn't it funny that that's what she held on to instead of when the mystic was like, So you know, maybe try and think about how you feel and hold your tongue and then respond. Like she didn't Ian (33:24) And then Tori (33:24) hear that part. Ian (33:26) No, because then what does she do when she's talking to Bronwyn? Bronwyn goes, I don't want to hear about I think she was talking about something in reference to Brittany. And Bronwyn goes, I don't want to hear about it. And then Tori (33:37) No, yeah. Ian (33:38) Angie goes, Well, then I won't tell you that, and then tells her. But I because that Tori (33:42) Yes. Yes. I I wrote that one down too, big time. Ian (33:46) is that is the mental gymnastics that our brain plays when we feel justified. in doing something where it's like as soon as somebody can give us that permission, you know, we've talked about this idea of like if somebody says, I mean, there's a difference between being accountable for a behavior and using a behavior as an excuse to do what you want. where, you know, if somebody says, I'm I'm just I'm super honest all the time. Right. That's fine. People who are truly honest can also hear the feedback or recognize the time when honesty is appropriate or when to delay it. Being just the truth teller for the sake of truth telling, because Tori (34:26) Yeah. Ian (34:27) you feel it's your obligation, is is a way that we rationalize and justify our own behaviors that is a form of of lacking accountability, right? Tori (34:35) you know what's funny? I think I'm doing some real time reflecting on this. I was gonna say it towards the end of the episode. I do think I I've gotta stick to watching these episodes the day before we record. I cannot come so hot off off the episode. Because in my housewife lizard brain, right? Like what we just want to like react to with without the thought or reason or like the reflection piece is like I thought that the I won't tell you part, like then I won't tell you that Lisa said this and this and this. Like I thought that that was hilarious. And like that to me is like perfect housewife where I'm like, that's so good. But no, that's not great behavior in real life. Because and that so that I need a little bit of separation before we record these episodes I'm learning. Ian (35:27) you bring up a really good point because there is sort of in in that interaction though, Bronwyn does not get super upset that she's told. Like there's sort of this charming element of like Tori (35:38) No. There yeah. Ian (35:40) like there's this lightness to it, there's this laughing. So no, I I actually think what we should have done today is given you a different chair and a different camera, and you could have literally switched to the therapist chair and then the hot take Tori (35:53) that's yeah, I Ian (35:54) chair. Tori (35:54) you're right. I should have set it up in between these two. Yeah, and I can have therapist version and then just reaction housewife fan version. Because yeah, Ian (35:57) Yes. And the hot take. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Tori (36:03) some of those things were like really funny, but sometimes the the separation of it to just give Ian (36:06) They were funny. Yeah. Tori (36:09) the I just realized like so far in this episode I am reacting more to the housewife stuff and not the human behavior stuff. And so that's that's I I'm I'm I'm Ian (36:16) Which hey, there were I mean Tori (36:19) recognizing it, okay? I'm reacting in real time. I'm reflecting. I'm being accountable. Yeah. Ian (36:22) You're being accountable. I'm listening to myself. That's right. You're setting an example. Tori (36:28) but I think too, it was just like again, so much was happening in this episode where it's like they're fighting, they're fighting, they're fighting and so it's just like zigging zagging. my gosh. Ian (36:37) you predicted this was coming, right? We we sort of set up Tori (36:39) Yeah, yeah. Ian (36:40) the climax and you know, the build. Tori (36:42) Right. The yeah, the calm before the storm and this Ian (36:45) Yeah. Tori (36:46) this was really it. That was gross. I don't know why Ian (36:48) Can we also talk about Angie eating the candy out of Brittany's hair? That was so funny. Tori (36:55) she did that. I d I was like, was that just Ian (36:59) Mm. Tori (37:01) there so if you didn't watch the episode, there's this moment I don't even want to describe it was gross. yeah, go for it, 'cause yeah. Ian (37:06) I'll describe it. So Brittany's standing there and apparently for some reason has candy in her hair. Tori (37:12) Never explained why. Ian (37:14) Never explained why. I don't know if there's some astrological connection to this or what. But Angie, they're sort of talking and they're standing like pair like right next to each other, shoulder to shoulder. And Angie just sees it, looks and goes, I like candy, and just like grabs it out of her hair, pops it in her mouth. Tori (37:30) Like a sour patch kid kind of thing. Out of her hair. Ian (37:35) Yeah, and just eats it and moves on as if nothing happened and it is funny, the confessionals Tori (37:38) And and yeah. Ian (37:40) like cries like like actively. Yeah. Tori (37:42) No one ha ever was like that was not normal, but she just was like, Yeah, let's keep it rolling. I love candy. It's like that Ian (37:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tori (37:49) How often do you find candy in a friend's hair? Now I will say the confusing thing about Angie, if we stay on her for just one second, I don't really understand why what was confusing about Angie's behavior was she kind of stirred all this mess up and then she was very comforting to Brittany. And I thought that that was odd. Ian (38:09) I mean, I think, you know, it's it's a role that we can play in groups and relationships, right? Where she becomes she becomes somebody who is important, right? I'm the information holder. I'm gonna disseminate this information, I have control, who knows what, how it gets out, but then I also get to play the rescuer. But it sort of absolves us of having to take that accountability of like you wouldn't have to rescue if you didn't sabotage or light all of this on fire. Tori (38:37) Right. Ian (38:37) And I thought that the cause it the rescuing role seems very bizarre be at least for me, because I was like, Well, a lot of what you said led to this. Like, did it need Tori (38:46) Right. Ian (38:47) to it you know, it's obviously gonna come out at some point. But that's another defense. Like, we we we use our own justification or our own view of things to fall into certain roles in which we feel most comfortable. And it was clear that she was all of a sudden, you know, rescuing or being the savior. To Britney when everyone else is mad at her, and I could and I look, of again, of all the behavior that I like, this is like Britney, like whatever. But the stuff that Angie did was like it just it was one of those things where it was hard to look at and be like, okay, that's why she's doing that? Tori (39:21) Really didn't get why she I don't know if she it would all be speculative for me to guess. Like if she felt Ian (39:27) Yeah. Tori (39:27) stuck when everyone left the table, so she's like, Okay, now I'll comfort her. Ian (39:29) Yeah. Tori (39:30) because she t Brittany turned on the waterworks as soon as everyone left. Cause she's like, Why does everyone think I'm so like malicious? Blah blah blah. But it's odd because I just would have felt like maybe Angie would have been like, You du you know, you you made this mess yourself or whatever. But I do think it also rubbed all of the women wrong. Like I do think and I I have a feeling this is gonna come back up because Mary has a huge problem with Brittany. And I think it was weird for Mary to see Angie comforting Britney. I don't think Mary liked that. I don't know if that's gonna come back up. That's just my hot take on this, but I do feel like Mary's gonna feel some sort of way because Angie and Mary are close. And I think it's gonna be weird that Angie was comforting her in that moment. But I really I could not find the connection as to why she was like wiping her tears and stuff like that. Like I I I couldn't understand that. Ian (40:27) I as you were talking, I had sort of an epiphany and may this might be the first time I've been disappointed in the producers. because this is really not important. But I found this hilarious and super relatable. Maybe one of the first relatable things that I've ever experienced on this show. But they left a loose end the producers did that nobody else will care about, but I am very curious. When Mary got upset that there was no food at the party. She thought there was gonna be food. I was like, the producers never followed up on this. There's no confession about Heather, and it was the most relatable thing in any of that situation was me going to a party, wanting there to be food when there should have been food and there wasn't food. Tori (41:02) Can't believe there was no food. Yeah, no no cut to like, they forgot that there's a table in the back or like the password derv started coming out. But yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's just party planning. Ian (41:13) Yeah. I so Tori (41:15) But you know, that means that they were all just drinking all night with no food. So just Ian (41:19) Empty space. Tori (41:21) we can make our own assumptions on that. Ian (41:24) man, I will also say we've talked about this is less somewhat about this episode, but you know, the amount of cutting comments that are either sarcastic or have an undertone of insult is just remarkable to me. Tori (41:40) What stood out? Ian (41:42) Well when Mary's in there and she's like, I know Heather likes to eat. Tori (41:45) yeah. listen, Ian, that's like nothing. You know, let Ian (41:49) I n I know, but I'm just so surprised. Tori (41:52) me tell you this. One time Mary told Heather to her face she thought she looked inbred. And they're like friends. Like everyone respects Ian (42:02) No. Tori (42:02) Mary, you know? Like that's like yeah. Th that's that's certainly a a past that they have. Ian (42:11) was it was also so interest I made this comment to Courtney and Courtney keeps me grounded through all this because I was like I and this is maybe a you know, an unjust male perspective, but there was a part of me where it was like I d I look at Courtney, I was like, Why don't they just like make this like hockey and drop the gloves at some point, like take off the crowns and just she's like they would get fired for that like I understand the logic. But I and maybe th we can talk about this in in in a different time, but it is it it is I think interesting to me that like my reaction at some point is like Again, this is maybe my own perspective that I need to check is like talking isn't gonna solve any of this. And I know that's not the point. I know that's not the point. Tori (42:45) Yeah, but no, but you know, I I made this joke to you last week or when we were recording another ep or talking about something else, but it's like the the male response of like, why why'd they no hit each other? Like where it's like very like Ian (43:02) Yes Yes Tori (43:04) but like that's so not as satisfying for a woman fight, you know? Like I'd rather cut you with my words Ian (43:10) Which is so f Tori (43:12) than than hurt you with my fists. Like I'd rather it's like Ian (43:14) Wi which is so fair. Tori (43:16) psychological damage. Yeah. Yeah. Ian (43:18) And that's and that is clearly something I am learning because that is and I think that's clearly for our own, you know, gender differences, roles, like for me, like after a couple minutes, like let's just let's have it out, let's be done with Yeah, like let's be done with it. I know, Tori (43:30) Duke it out. No, that's not a that's no. Ian (43:33) and but that's something that for me is again, it's like my own need and I think this is, you know, relatable to the show in the sense that like it it's like my need for resolution to things. Is not being satisfied. That's why that's why I don't understand how people are calm after this. I'm like, there's no resolution to this. Not only in this is there no resolution, we're gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again. Tori (43:57) And then we're gonna re talk about it and re address it and come back with a different lens. Yeah. Ian (44:03) That's right, because I'm all I'm a therapist, I'm all about communication, I'm all about expressing feelings, I'm all about the process. Apparently only when the process leads somewhere though. Tori (44:13) J yeah, right. Not yes, this is the uncomfortable s part of waiting waiting for the resolution. Sometimes that happens at the reunion. So you've Ian (44:24) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (44:25) only got like, you know, fifteen more episodes or so to go Ian (44:29) What? Tori (44:29) for I don't know how long the season is, but they're normally like maybe like I feel like at least twenty. Did I not tell you that before we started the season? Yeah. Ugh. Ian (44:38) You said it could go for a while. yeah. Tori (44:42) Whoops. okay. Ian (44:47) Stuck see that was brilliant though. You waited till we were seven episodes in and now we can't stop. Tori (44:50) Right, right. You're too hooked. Yeah, 'cause if you want resolution you have to finish. Yeah. I know. That's my chess. Yes, I've learned I've learned from these women. Ian (44:55) That was brilliant. I'm out here playing checkers like talk about show and you're you're out Tori (45:04) Yeah. Ian (45:04) here like yeah, you are gonna talk about this show. Tori (45:08) I again, today's episode I feel like I've given a lot more opinions versus removed human behavior lens, but I guess that's just, you know, the real reaction of being a Housewife fan. The episode does end with a fight between Mary and Britney. Again, it is Ian (45:26) Yeah. Tori (45:27) all about Britney. And I do feel like this is just this is definitely gonna come up again, like in more and more episodes. So I don't know how long we need to because it kind of this episode kind of it's not a cliffhanger, but again, to your point of resolution, the episode ends right as Britney says something very hurtful to Mary and everyone is starting to find out what Britney said. So basically Brittany and Mary are fighting about the flow but because Mary said you stole flowers. Ian (45:57) So two things in this. Brittany's choice we you you what was it, a couple episodes ago we're talking about semantics Tori (46:03) Uh-huh. Ian (46:04) to go up to Mary and be like, Hey, can I steal you from Like let's talk about terrible semantics Tori (46:09) My gosh, again, the self awareness. Ian (46:12) And then The fact that Mary was like, You've stolen stuff before and they cut to a conversation where she's talking about putting bread rolls. Sorry, go ahead. Cause it it is not a funny scene, but those two things were Mm-hmm. Tori (46:23) Yeah, no, she she clocked No no no. But Mary is funny. So like the things that she does and says it's inherently sometimes funny. but no Mary didn't even necessarily mean it to be funny, but like yes, that delivery was perfect. You stole bread, you stole flowers, like s and it's like from some comment she made like two years ago. which again is very funny. But they're fighting because Mary's like, You stole the flowers, didn't like that. you know what I'm going through with my son and Brittany goes, Well, that's not a thing I mean as the other women when Bronman found out, Meredith found out, it it really is the women are like, that's the final straw. Like you can't do you can't. It was so dismissive, so wrong. Like again, Britney is then even by the producer said, it seems like you're dismissing her grief. And she's like, Well, certainly that's not how I meant it. Like that's just her thing. But it kind of ends within that conversation. So I know it's gonna come back up, but really bad Ian (47:24) Mary at this point, her and Bronwyn have removed themselves from the party and are sitting outside, as then I think it's Meredith comes out and Tori (47:28) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ian (47:33) hears that, and then so they're slowly getting out of the party. People are leaving because the emotional intensity's too much. Tori (47:37) Yeah. Yes. Ian (47:39) I'm glad you brought up the point about the producer, 'cause I I do think that is like, you know, sometimes when you're working with people, it's like, you know, let me help me help you a little bit. And the producers are like Let us help you a little bit. Like clarify Tori (47:52) Yeah. Ian (47:53) it and and I maybe there was an apology, but I think what you were describing was perfect if is it was like that's not what I intended or surely that's not w how people took it. But it was not like, my gosh, if I did say that, that was horrible and I apologize. And again, you don't ha I'm not saying she has to take responsibility for something she didn't say, but at least put in because I think that's You know, we talk you talk about this a lot, right? It's the intent of things or it's the understanding of the human experience where not everything is so black and white that it can be right or wrong. But to not even offer that that is a possibility that I, in an emotional situation, said something insensitive and shouldn't have said it. The only reasonable explanation is that it was misheard or it didn't happen. And that of of course it did. Tori (48:42) Right. But it did happen 'cause we are watching it, yeah. Ian (48:46) Which is even more audacious to then be like, but Tori (48:49) And that's why yeah, go ahead. Ian (48:51) No, I was just I but I think that's, you know, a very important part of this is like not just the accountability, but the producers were going out of their way to give her the opportunity to reflect. It's like your parents being like, Tori (49:03) Yeah. Yeah, like this is Ian (49:05) Tell me the truth before I find it out when they already know Tori (49:09) Well, and here's the thing, Bronwyn tried to tell her in the moment when she was arguing Ian (49:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tori (49:14) with Mary, she's like, You need to step away. This isn't the right time. Like all Ian (49:16) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (49:17) of this. She keeps going, keeps going, says the insensitive comment. And then you know the confessional is filmed way later. So like she's had time to reflect within her own experience. She's having another time to comment on it. Like anything, but she just wants to dig her heels in and be like, Well, clearly that's not what I meant. And and so to try, since I haven't done it much this episode, but to try and take it out of just housewife specific, but just in terms of the real act of what accountability looks like is acknowledging like when someone is telling you what happened or how they feel or how something hurt them. It comes back to the apology thing. This doesn't even have to be the empty apology. It's just like even acknowledging I cannot believe I said that. Or I there would you know you would want an apology to say like I'm so sorry that that probably hurt you. Or just like again acknowledging the misstep. That that can be a version of accountability where Maybe you're not sorry about it, maybe you did mean it, maybe whatever that is, but just acknowledging like what the other person went through at your own actions. And again, that's what Britney is so bad at. Ian (50:43) Yeah, and it just Tori (50:43) So Ian (50:43) it it seems and I think, you know, too, right? Like when you talk about, you relationships and building trust with people, I think, you know, a lot of times what we look for, you know, is predictability and relationships are making the world more predictable is consistency or inconsistency in actions or behaviors. And Meredith or Lisa both bring it up a lot with Whitney where it's like, Yeah, Whitney's not drinking and she's saying she's making all these steps, but it never changes and I think that's what you're sort of describing too with this is the the amount of times that this happened with Brittany, particularly in one episode, Tori (51:14) Mm-hmm. Ian (51:14) just it's like, okay, once or twice, we as humans tend to be forgiving, understand, can say, okay, it was once or twice. Like, you know, I think Kwai's had this, right? She's had couple fights with people, things have happened, but it hasn't been so consistent that it's begun to weigh on people. And we reach our certain of you know, our w like window of tolerance where we don't tolerate the same behaviors from people anymore. It was very clear. that many people were getting to that point where that window like tolerance piece was is just not there anymore. Tori (51:46) Right, right. And and as like a behavior or as a pattern, you talked about like congruency or incongruency. And it's like the congru like the the thing that is staying true is Brittany going too far, doing too much, whatever, and then not acknowledging it, not accepting it, not apol like no but instead like flipping it on the other person or saying like, It's your fault. Right. It's your fault that you Ian (52:09) Well that's how it started with the flowers, right? Is like I'm doing this super generous thing. Tori (52:14) Right. How can you be offended? I'm bringing it to old people. Ian (52:16) Mm-hmm. And yet the intent was something very personal and personalized for somebody, right? Like I think that's Tori (52:19) Right. Right. Ian (52:22) just but again, like it's we as you know, people like in building relationships need to be able to stop and say, can I hear this? Tori (52:31) Yeah. Ian (52:31) And can I hear this in a way that is not immediately me assuming this is critical? Now, Tori (52:37) Mm-hmm. Ian (52:38) Mary was being very critical of her, so it doesn't apply to that specific Tori (52:40) Yeah. Yeah. Ian (52:41) interaction, but you know, can it really can we really hear things as not critical? 'Cause sometimes that is our first defense mechanism is to hear something is critical and then immediately go on the defenses. Tori (52:53) Yeah, and it's the same thing like we said with Angie only hearing the part of the mystic that she really Ian (52:59) Yes. Tori (52:59) wanted and and hearing something to respond versus hearing something to listen and and kind of like cherry picking within that to either justify or continue a certain behavior. I feel like that was definitely the theme of the party. Astrological signs and and making a mess. Ian (53:24) Yes, it I I was I was loosely hoping for another musical performance. I obviously it wasn't gonna happen. Tori (53:31) When Heather grabbed the mic and she started calling on the other women, like, I've got my Libra here. I've got my I I Ian (53:37) Yep. Yeah. Tori (53:38) thought that I was like, my gosh, are they about to have their own song? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I guess Ian (53:41) I thought something was coming. Yeah. But Tori (53:46) to be continued if we actually get the quote quote distract. We'll see what happens. Alright. Yeah. Ian (53:51) I mean I'm not gonna give my hopes up, like I I mean I w I would love it, but you know and hey, you know, we gotta we gotta be open, open about the possibilities, but Tori (54:03) I've gotta say I'm excited for next week. the preview for next week. again, you know, I love Angie, but I was laughing really hard at the at the preview for next week with Angie. I don't know what is gonna spur this. Ian (54:19) I don't know that I watched it. Tori (54:21) the you did did you see where Angie is just yelling like, I'm allowed to get a facial. Like, I don't know what they're fighting about, but the fact that she is yelling that with so much passion and vigor, I cannot Ian (54:30) Yes. Like in tears, yes. Tori (54:35) wait to see what spurred that kind of a reaction. Yeah. No context, just yelling, Ian (54:37) I did remember that, yeah. No, 'cause they were they're sitting outside or something yeah. my gosh. Tori (54:43) I'm allowed to get a frickin' facial. So who knows what what that's gonna be about. But I don't think we're gonna get another like calm wave for a minute. So with with that preview. Yeah. Ian (54:55) Yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair. Well, as always, Tori, especially since you have allowed us to see the side of you that is more directly off of the episode. We appreciate you overthinking No, no, we loved it. I think it I think it adds a really good element. No, I think I think this is what makes it Tori (55:07) Yeah, my bad. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I will try and give a little bit of a buffer so we can be a little I'll I'll keep my therapist hat on a little bit tighter next week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I need the word vomit. Yeah. Right. Ian (55:18) Or or let's just create a space for you to have the personal and the therapist. Like we'll just we'll just be more intentional about it. We'll give you could my gosh, this actually we could do this. You could give the therapy side, then we could cut to your confessional of what you really think the episode is. Yes. Yes, of what you really think the episode is. That would be amazing. Yeah. Tori (55:33) my confessional. my gosh, that's that would be great actually. I need that I need that space. Yeah. Ian (55:41) so thank you as ever as always for Tori (55:42) Yeah. Ian (55:43) everyone who's overthinking with us. Please tune in for episode eight next Tori (55:48) Yeah. Ian (55:49) week. if you follow us on socials, please like and subscribe. you can find us wherever yes Tori (55:52) And rate and review. Ian (55:54) and rate and review wherever you get your podcast. So thank you everybody. keep overthinking with us and we will talk to you next week.