Carol Cox: If you've been feeling like your voice is a
little quieter than it should be,
or you're not sure if your story matters,
this episode is for you.
You're going to love my conversation with
repeat guest Tiffany Hawk on this episode of
the Speaking Your Brand podcast.
Hi, and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand
podcast. I'm your host,
Carol Cox. Today my guest is Tiffany Hawk,
a return guest. This is the third time she's
been on the podcast.
I'll make sure to include links in the show
notes to the previous two episodes.
You'll definitely want to check those out.
What we're going to talk about today is why
it's so important to tell your story and
share your message, even if,
and especially if, I would say you don't feel
ready. This goes for your public speaking for
maybe a book that you want to write wherever
you want to use your voice.
And this is especially true because it's
March and this is Women's History Month.
As those of you who've been listening to the
podcast for a while, know my master's degree
is in history with a focus on women's history
and gender studies.
I gravitated towards history because I was
always looking for the women in the stories.
I wanted to know as I was reading these
history books, what were the women thinking?
What were they doing? What were their ideas
for a better society?
And too often they were just literally
missing. They were nowhere there.
So that's why when studied history, because I
was looking for the women.
And that's exactly why I love the work that
we do here at Speaking Your Brand,
because we help women tell their stories not
only for themselves, but for that positive
impact in your industry and in your
community. Well, my guest,
Tiffany Hawk, is definitely along the same
lines. She is a published author,
and we're going to talk about another book
that she has along the way and her
experiences with that,
that you're going to learn a lot from.
She's also a book coach.
We have worked together closely for the past
five years. I can't believe it's been five
years. We have run retreats together.
She's been to speaking your brand retreat
that we held. We're going to talk more about
an upcoming retreat that we have later this
year that you'll definitely going to want to
learn about. Tiffany, welcome back to the
podcast.
Tiffany Hawk: Thank you. Hi. And I don't know if you
remember this, but my undergraduate degree is
in history.
Carol Cox: So there you go. That's,
that's why this is why we're such a great
pair. I love it.
Okay, so Tiffany, before we get into talking
more specifics about writing and books and
using your voice, whether it's through the
written word or through the spoken word, tell
us a little bit. Give us a recap of your
background and how you got to the work that
you do here today.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh, well, it's a little some of it's an
accident. Like I was a journalist and then I
got my MFA in creative writing and became a
published novelist. And then the coaching
part happened by accident because people just
started coming to me for how did you navigate
the publishing industry? How did you make
this happen? So I started working with
friends and their referrals and then started
really having success in helping people,
land agents and get book deals.
And it kind of became my thing.
And unintentionally.
But it's been really, really fun. And I love
especially working with women.
Carol Cox: Well, I have been through your breakthrough
book proposal program that you ran that you
run online. I went through it a couple of
years ago. And as I mentioned,
we hosted a joint writing and speaking
retreat last year.
In 2025, we have another one coming up this
year that I, I'll again,
we'll talk about a little bit more in a
second, but so, Tiffany,
tell me a little bit about the women that you
work with. So when they come to you,
what stage are they in generally with the
books that they're working on? Why do they
want to write a book?
What kinds of books are they working on?
What are their goals for their books? So kind
of give me a profile of these women.
Tiffany Hawk: So as far as where they're starting,
they're coming in from all different places.
But what they have, like from just having an
idea to having a proposal that for some
reason isn't working and they need help
making it better so that they get interest
from agents and from publishers,
or if they decide they want to self-publish.
So the people that I'm working with,
especially women who have something to say
that whether it's a memoir or it's more of a
teaching book or something along their
expertise or business book,
health book, what they have in common is
something that can not just be a vanity
project, but help people see the world in a
new way. It might be just seeing a different
perspective, or actually helping the reader
with something of their own that they're
going through, if it was more prescriptive
nonfiction. So no matter where they're coming
in, some people are wanting to traditionally
publish, some are wanting to self-publish,
and most are open to both.
I'm finding more and more every year people
are open to both, which I think is really
smart because I think it's a lot less about
the mode of publication and more about having
those. The key foundation is the same no
matter how you want to publish.
If you don't have those key ingredients,
you're ingredients, you're not going to be
successful at either of them.
Carol Cox: And what drives them to want to write a book?
Are they seeing it as a as an asset for their
business? Have they always wanted to be a
writer and publish a book?
Are they looking at it as one more thing to
check off the list that we think that we're
supposed to be doing?
Tiffany Hawk: Oh, I think most people have a little bit of
all of those things.
But the last one, if you're doing it just to
check something off the list, I don't think
you should be doing it. It's not the time you
really need to have something that you're
burning to say in order to go through the
long haul of the process,
but also to have a book that stands out and
that is meaningful. And there's way too many
books out there for people to gravitate
towards something that's just,
you know, can I say half assed?
Yes, yes, that's out there.
So some people are burning to write a book
and I and they've just always wanted to see
their, um, I mean, not just see their name in
print. That's a little bit just of an ego
thing, but really wanted to write a book.
They're book lovers, or they have something
that lends itself to that medium.
Other people do see it as a tool for their
business or for their thought leadership,
which I think is great because it is.
I mean, especially when we're talking about
speakers, having a book is going to make it a
lot easier to land speaking gigs,
and then at an event that is the best
possible place to be selling your book.
But I really encourage people to see it as
more than that, not just a sales tool,
because again, you need to be coming up with
something that is original and meaningful
that you care about beyond just ticking that
box or using it.
You want something that's going to connect
with the reader and we can talk about how to
make that happen too.
Carol Cox: Yes. And, and this is,
I think, why the work that we do is so well
aligned and why a lot we share a number of
the same clients is because we are
approaching it from the same way. Thought
leadership. What is that unique perspective
that you have that you want to share?
Embedding your story why this matters to you.
Your personal journey, or why this has
impacted you into the message that you're
sharing. Because you, again,
want to have this positive change in the
world. You want to see things that could be
better, better best practices in your
industry or for the people that you happen to
work with. And so I agree with you that just
churning out a book for the sake of churning
out a book, which heck, ChatGPT could do for
you right now, you don't need any of those.
Tiffany Hawk: We do not.
Carol Cox: Yes. And I feel like, and I say this a lot as
a speaker, is that you learn so much about
yourself as a speaker by going through the
process of creating what we call a signature
talk, because it really is a reflection of
your values, your mission,
the work that you want to put into the world,
that bigger message that you want to share.
And I and Tiffany sounds like a book is the
same thing, but it is even more,
it takes even more time to create a great
book than it does to create a great talk.
Tiffany Hawk: That is very true.
But you're 100% right.
I think in the writing of the book,
a lot of people worry that they're thinking
in their head and the book doesn't seem
ready. And it probably isn't.
It never is when you start,
but it's the doing.
It is where you start to get that angle and
to hone that idea and to learn more about
what it is you're trying to say while you're
wrestling through it.
So it's not about coming up with exactly how
you want it to be and then executing it.
It's it's in the doing and in the writing is
where you start to find your answers and your
meaning.
Carol Cox: I think that is, that is so helpful,
Tiffany, because I know that for sure.
A lot of the listeners are like us introverts
because we are introverts, even though we do
work, you know, speaking and workshops and
all of those introverts,
and I probably live 99% of my life in my head
and I have great conversations with myself in
my head. But as far as like producing
content, whether it's a talk or a book or
what have you, you have to actually do.
You have to actually do the thing.
Not just keep it swirling in your head.
Tiffany Hawk: And I'm having that problem with the talk
that I'm working on right now. It's swirling
in my head and I need to sit down and start
just working through it and know that,
as Anne Lamott says, you just have to start
with a shitty first draft.
And sometimes and if we talk about my book,
even something worse than that,
like that doesn't wouldn't even count as a
shitty first draft, because then you've got
material and you can start organizing what
has been in your head. And I know I'm never
going to get there with this talk until I do
that.
Carol Cox: Well, that's why you need me.
Tiffany Hawk: I do, and that's why we're going to schedule
something right after this, right?
Carol Cox: Exactly.
Tiffany Hawk: I definitely need you.
Carol Cox: I know as a recovering perfectionist and
someone who likes to put out good quality
work, and, you know, I take pride in the work
that I do. It is really hard for me to do the
shitty first draft because of the editing in
place, which I know you're not supposed to do
when you're, when you're writing.
And, and I, I know I need to build the muscle
memory of just letting it be bad and letting
it be bad for a while before it gets good.
Do you have any tips for me or for anyone
listening?
Tiffany Hawk: Just. Yeah, you absolutely have to embrace
that. For one thing, it's like two different
parts of your brain.
The part of your brain that's doing the
editing is not creative at all.
Like I find when I'm the most creative and
I'm really just in flow,
I'm literally spelling things completely
wrong, like I'm choosing the wrong two,
2 or 2. I mean, just on really basic things,
spelling wildly wrong because I'm in that
creative flow that doesn't edit or get things
right. And I one of the,
I think it was Stephen King. I really need to
find this attribution because I quote this
all the time. And I never remember for sure
if it's him, but it has.
This image of the first draft is like
creating a sculpture, but the first draft is
digging up the clay and then like it's
nothing yet, it's just a ball of clay,
and then you can start shaping it into
something very, very vaguely in the realm of
what you're trying to create.
And gradually you get to where you're
chiseling out little tiny features.
And a lot of people start doing the chiseling
over and over and over of their first few
paragraphs or their first few chapters,
and never can finish the project because they
don't let themselves get into that creative
flow where, I mean, like my latest book,
I probably wrote twice as many words as what
are actually in it and throughout what would
be half of the amount of work that I put in.
And that's just where you ultimately have to
get. And that sounds like a lot of time
that's daunting, right? That's like,
I'm never writing a book.
Carol Cox: This is like 70,000 words,
right? In an average book.
Tiffany Hawk: Depending on the genre.
Yeah, around 70 to 90,000 words.
Mine's a little too long still probably at
95,000 words, but it's working.
But and it depends, like sci fi can be
120,000 words and fantasy.
So it depends very much on the genre.
But we're talking a lot like 300 something
pages for an adult book,
nonfiction generally a little bit shorter if
it's prescriptive.
But yeah, you're putting in a lot of work.
Now, some people though,
to go on a total tangent,
people are usually in one of two camps.
You write short and it's not at all long
enough for a book, and then you have to go in
and flush it out. That was always me,
my entire career as a journalist and with my
first book. And then some people write long,
and then you have to cut and pull things out
and shape it that way.
So when my book came in at 110,000 words,
this time I did not know what to do.
I knew how to help other people. But I'm
like, wait, I write short and I flesh out.
So I was a bit overwhelmed with that and it
was very hard to cut, but it was very
necessary.
Carol Cox: Well, I think editing and curation is a
superpower that goes underrated.
Whether it's books, essays,
news articles, public public speaking.
You know, talks, speeches,
Ted talks. I find that actually the shorter
it is, the tighter it is because of because
of having to edit down.
And I'm obviously a book can't be 20,000
words if it's supposed to be 80,000 words.
But there is a lot, especially for
prescription nonfiction,
maybe a little bit different than a novel or
a memoir. I feel like being able to you as
the creator of it, being able to discern what
is that through line?
What is the most important thing for the
reader to take away, and staying true to that
through line versus kind of like going all
over the place in your book and maybe
potentially losing, losing the reader because
you're going too far afield from where
they're, where they are comfortable with,
or whether you have led them so far.
Tiffany Hawk: Absolutely. And it always goes back to that.
Is it Mark Twain, that quote,
I'm sorry, I didn't have time to write it or
sorry my letter so long.
I didn't have time to write a shorter one.
Carol Cox: Yes. Yeah. Exactly.
Right. All right.
So then before we get into your the the book
that you've been working on, I want to talk
to you more about that.
And Alana, a lot of the women that we work
with, they are entrepreneurs or they're
professionals, executives in their careers.
And so they have a lot of expertise.
They have degrees and credentials,
credentials. They've been working in their
field, in their industry for a long time and
in their business for a while.
And I know I talk quite a bit on this podcast
about this idea of the expert trap that as
experts in well qualified and we have earned
our expertise and should be, we should be
very proud of that.
But we cling so tightly to it that we end up
losing that connection with our audience,
whether it's an audience we're speaking to or
the reader who is reading our work.
And we lose that connection because we're
unwilling to share anything of ourselves that
is meaningful or that is going to create
intimacy through vulnerability.
And I've had to learn this throughout my
career because I definitely was not the kind
of speaker or writer who would who was like,
well, I'm going to give you my tips and my
teachings and here's, here's what I learned
here. And you can learn from me.
I didn't even cross my mind to do it any
other way. And obviously now,
over the years, I have learned not only from
seeing the results from what I have put out,
but from working with so many of our clients
and them seeing the results of being willing
to go deeper into their personal journey,
into their stories.
So Tiffany, with the women that you have
worked with, where do you feel like they
struggle with this?
The ones that do and what,
how, what recommendations do you have for
them?
Tiffany Hawk: Oh yeah. I think the people that I work with
and, and I can relate to this too.
The more you become an expert,
the more likely you are to have a hard time
being vulnerable and sharing your story.
Because when you're out of the habit, it's
very easy now for you to share your expertise
and your tips and all that,
just because you do it day in and day out.
And to you, you kind of build up this armor
of expertise that you have to be able to kind
of chink away at to be able to get back to
that vulnerability.
And then there's that fear.
If I'm vulnerable, is this going to undermine
my career? Is this going to make me seem like
less of an expert when that's what I've been
relying on?
But story is so, so important.
Um, kind of going back to the journalism
thing, they always talk about if you give
somebody a number like,
oh, in this whatever tragedy is,
10,000 people died, people go,
oh, that's too bad.
That's tragic. And that's it.
But if you focus on one person or one family
or one specific place and you tell that
story, people are going to be moved by it and
they're going to jump into action and do
something. So that's why whenever you're
listening to this, whether it's years later
or right when it airs, there's something
going on in the world that you can see that
happening right now, that you're being moved
by small stories in a larger thing,
as opposed to the big numbers.
But the other thing is that story,
especially right now, when people feel lonely
and people feel at odds,
maybe with their neighbors.
And the more we connect both in real life but
also through story, whether it's on paper,
whether it's on podcast or at a live event.
The more not alone you feel,
the more connected you can be to other people
through that story. I go every month to this
local storytellers group.
This this really cool female storytellers
group, and five people get up on stage and
tell a story from their life.
And even if you are never the one reading,
even if you don't know the person on stage,
there is this atmosphere,
this collective.
I'm getting chills literally right now just
thinking about this. My friends and I go,
it's our happy place. There's this collective
just safety and joy and ability for even the
listener to feel vulnerable because someone
else is sharing of themselves.
And you know, you're not the only one that
has gone through these things and that it's
safe to feel them in this environment.
Carol Cox: Yes. And so two things that come to mind.
First is about the containers that we create
for the women who we work with.
And I'll come back to that in just a moment.
But I was thinking about again, since this is
Women's History Month right now in the month
of March, is that the civil rights movement
of the 50s and 60s and the women's rights
movement that came after that, and the gay
rights movement after that,
the the the impetus for them,
for a lot of the people in that movement was
literally getting together in each other's
living rooms and sharing personal stories
about their experiences,
experiences at home, experiences,
not getting the jobs or the careers that they
wanted, experiences raising families and,
and until they shared that with each other,
they thought it was just them.
It was an isolated experience.
Oh, it was just me. You know,
my choices or my limitations.
But the ones they started talking to each
other and sharing their stories, they
realized, oh, it's bigger than just one of
us. This is a whole system that we need to
work on changing.
It's not just one of us.
And I feel like that is the power of personal
narrative is not only do you help one other
person in your audience not feel alone,
which is tremendously valuable.
But then the more people who are sharing,
you start to realize, oh,
there's more we can do here to make this
better for more people.
Tiffany Hawk: Yes. I mean, just think of the last few
years, whether it's me too,
or anytime you go to a protest and you're
just around other people that are willing to,
there's so much trying to make us scared and
make us silent. Everybody,
but also women especially,
and people of color and people that are
queer, all different groups that they want us
to be afraid.
And I mean, don't even get started on
immigration. And when people aren't,
when somebody stands up and you can go into a
group at a protest or any other thing like
that, you feel emboldened and safer and like
you're not alone and you're willing to do it.
So we have the ability to help other people
do that when we're able to get together or
tell our story, even though it's scary and I
get scared getting on stage and or even just
in a group. I still get nervous raising my
hand in a class, but we have to do it because
look at the power that's in it.
Carol Cox: Yes. Well, and you know,
I think most of us still get nervous that
it's not, you know, it's that obviously our
bodies are responding to the environment and
what is going on. So it's nervous.
It's it's okay to feel nervous.
And then but I feel like when one of us does
it, then more people have the courage to do
it as well. And so when.
Tiffany Hawk: We do it, we build the courage.
It's kind of like the creativity. You don't
get the courage and then do it.
You do it and that gives you the courage. Can
I tell a story about going to your retreat?
And then what happened to me after that?
So I went to your treat about that.
Carol Cox: Yeah.
Tiffany Hawk: I was the most nervous person there for sure.
I'm like, I'm a writer.
I'm not a speaker, but I just feel like I
need to be here so I can get better at this.
Um, and then I did a workshop shortly after
that at Stanford that went really well.
And then I know we talked about that on a
previous podcast, but we haven't talked about
this one. So that went really well.
I had my speaker notes though.
I was very comfortable.
I was able to let you know,
on the, um, the PowerPoint speaker notes so I
could look down there and know exactly what I
was going to say. And then the next time I
went, I had a different computer.
Somehow the OS was not working with their
system. And I'm up in front of this group.
Like I would have called in sick if I knew
this was going to happen. I would have said
my plane didn't make it or whatever.
I did not think I had this in me.
There's no way I could do this without
passing out. But all the students are there
watching and I have no notes at all.
And I just had to wing it all day for two
straight days and I was fine.
There were parts that were not as smooth or
that might be confusing. So people had
questions. But ever since then,
now I know I can do it.
And it was not as polished as the first
version. There were parts, like I said, that
were confusing, but I connected with people
more because I wasn't referring to that.
I wasn't trying to be that perfectionist and
get it right. I was just engaging more.
So then the next time I went,
I knew the parts.
The only parts that I really needed to get
exactly right or confusion would be opened
up. So I focused more on memorizing those,
gave myself a few extra little prompts on the
slides that were very basic before.
Just enough in case I got lost and I got
comfortable with the idea of just saying,
wait, give me a second,
I forgot where I was or something,
and that I my readings went so far.
I mean, I always had really, really good
ratings. I didn't think they could go up. It
was like 4.75 because these are anonymous.
I got a ratings of five across the board.
Every single person in that room.
I didn't even know that was possible.
And I think it was because I was able to get
up there and be more comfortable and engaged
and talking, as opposed to getting it just
right, trying to go by my notes.
And I wouldn't have done even the one with
notes if it wasn't for your retreat.
But being forced into it taught me to be more
comfortable because I know I can do it.
Carol Cox: Oh, I love hearing that, Tiffany. It's so
funny because at our the the workshops and
retreats that we run for speaking your brand
specifically for speakers,
they work on their story or their message in
the morning, and then we have them practice
in the afternoon and we do not allow them to
have any notes, no notes,
no script, no slides for their five minute
practice on the stage.
And trust me, they are terrified.
They're like deer in the headlights.
What are you making us do?
How can we possibly do this?
We do not know what we're going to say.
And every single time every woman gets on
that stage and does an amazing job because
they didn't think that they could do it until
we believed in them.
And we. And we 100% believe that they can do
it and they do it.
So like giving us that little push.
And we've also, I mentioned this idea of
building the container.
So we. And I know, Tiffany,
you and I did this when we ran that writing
and speaking retreat last year is creating
the supportive container where we,
we, we understand the narrative arc that
we're taking the women on during the multiple
multi-day retreat to build them up,
to have the confidence to do this and getting
them to believe we believe in them,
the other women believe in them.
And so then they start believing in
themselves as the days progress.
And I feel like it is such it is such an
honor to be able to do that,
to have women feel truly seen and understood
for who they are, especially in this day and
age where I feel like that is in shorter
supply.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh yes, that was one of my best experiences
of my life. That was such an uplifting group.
What what an incredible thing to witness and
be part of.
Carol Cox: Well, then, let's talk about the next one we
are doing, which we have been teasing now
throughout this entire episode.
So we are recording this right now in March
2026. So coming up at the end of September
2026, we are hosting a seven night,
eight day story to spotlight writing and
speaking retreat in Spain.
That's right. We're going international this
year. It is going to be so much fun.
We we have this amazing villa.
Everyone has their own room,
all the food, beverages,
the excursions, everything is included.
But most of all, you're getting out of your
normal everyday environment where,
let's face it, like I'm going to go put
another load of laundry in once I'm done here
recording this podcast.
And then I got to feed the cat and then I got
to go do this and I got to jump on another
Zoom call. So do I do like the deep work that
I know I should be doing no,
because, you know, there's too many
distractions. But having that time,
that focus that out of the your usual
element, but then being around this amazing
group of women, I'm, I'm inspired already.
So Tiffany, tell us a little bit more about
the retreat and what you're most looking
forward to.
Tiffany Hawk: Well, I can't wait. And part of it is like
you're saying, getting out of your day to
day, but also it's getting away from this
news cycle and also all of the things that
make you. I don't know how I'm trying to say
this, but you know, your identity that can
can pile up on you and make it harder to get
to your most authentic voice.
When you can step out of that and be
somewhere away from all that,
get back to who you actually are outside of
whatever role you're playing in your life as
a wife, a mom, a worker,
an entrepreneur, whatever it is, stepping
away. And then novelty in general is proven
as, you know, a huge thing for creativity.
And I learned this when I had to write on
deadline at a magazine.
It doesn't have to be novelty of going to
Spain. Going and writing in the lunchroom at
my office instead of in my office.
Sometimes was what I needed to be able to
make new connections and be creative again.
So I'm really excited about that part.
And having everybody there in that
environment to encourage each other to give
feedback. You and I are going to give people
personal one on one feedback,
but also getting it from the other people in
your group and seeing what works,
what doesn't, what excites people so that you
can notice what makes you special and having
that time to work on it is invaluable.
I know I have to get away.
Um, I've talked to you about this. Like to
finish my book with kids in a business.
I didn't do it for you.
It's been 13 years since my last book.
Yeah, I felt like I'm a has been.
I can't write anymore.
I've lost my voice. I can't finish a book.
And I finally decided,
okay, I'm going to do this. I'm giving myself
six months and if I don't,
I will finish it.
But if it's terrible, I'll be done and I'm
going to give up and I'm not going to try to
write another book. I'll just keep working
with my clients.
But part of how I was able to do it,
besides having that deadline,
was I would go for like 3 or 4 days to just
achieve like Hampton in whatever was cheapest
at the time, because I did this a few
different times. Doubletree, Hampton Inn,
whatever. And just right,
right, right, right, right, right, right.
Like for 18 straight hours,
because I wasn't having to come in and out of
the story, I was able to give it that,
that space and let my unconscious mind really
give everything to that instead of all the
other things that I would be working on or
like you said, laundry and different
distractions and mom, mom,
mom, mom, I would, I felt like I would get
six months of worth work done in like three
days. It was pretty crazy.
And I finished.
Carol Cox: Yes. Yeah.
Tiffany Hawk: I didn't think I could, but I did.
Carol Cox: We're still going to talk about your new book
here in just a moment.
So let me let me think about the so the
retreat we had last year,
I know that so many of the women that are
that were there still keep in touch with each
other. So we had ten of them together and
they still email each other.
A few of them have actually self-published
books since then, because that is the
direction that they wanted to go in.
So their books are out there.
A lot of them are doing speaking engagements,
contributing essays to industry associations
that they're in. I know that so many of them
said how life changing it was not just for
the what they got from us,
as far as, you know, the one on one sessions
and getting our feedback and coaching from
them, but really being around other women who
are in similar stages in life,
you know, like minded values wise and really
looking to use their voice in a way where,
you know, they, they want that extra
encouragement, they want that community of
support and having.
That I have seen since the.
Almost a year since we did the last one.
How much they have blossomed and grown from
that experience that they had together?
Tiffany Hawk: Absolutely. And I feel like I have too.
I got as much out of that as anyone else
there.
Carol Cox: Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you who are
interested in checking it out,
go to speaking your Brand.com again,
that's speaking your Brand.com Spain.
That page will redirect you to the page.
That's a joint page between myself and
Tiffany that has all the details about the
entire retreat, the dates,
the location, everything that's included.
Photos, testimonials from the women who
attended our joint retreat last year.
Why? This is a retreat for you to tap into
your authentic voice.
Create those breakthroughs,
get that personalized plan and timeline for
actually coming in with your project,
and you could be anywhere in your book
project. You could just be at the idea stage.
You could already have started working on
writing it. Maybe you're working on the book
proposal. Whatever stage that you're at,
we're going to help give you some direction
before you even get to the retreat,
and then give you direction afterwards,
because after the retreat is over,
we're going to give everyone a couple of
weeks to get settled back in.
And then we're going to have four weekly Zoom
calls with all the women who are there to
help, to give you that sense of momentum and
accountability and support afterwards,
so that you're ending the year really strong
and you know exactly what you need to do as
you close out 2026 and go into 2027.
So I'm excited about those follow up Zoom
calls as well.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh yeah, me too, because I've been guilty of
this and I know other people are. You go to
this amazing conference, retreat,
workshop, whatever it is.
All these great ideas when you leave and
you're so excited, then you go back to normal
life and don't do anything with it.
Oh my gosh, I've spent so much time and money
on things that I've done that with. So I'm
really happy that we both wanted to do this,
like implementation calls to keep people
going and give them that accountability.
And I can't remember if you said this, so I
want to make sure people know this isn't for
fiction, it's for non-fiction.
Whether we're talking about a memoir, that's
your personal story or something more
prescriptive. That's how to or about
narrative nonfiction, nonfiction,
like history or science or something like
that, but not fiction.
Carol Cox: Right? So if you're an entrepreneur and you
have a business and say you are a speaker or
you want to do more speaking,
you could write what we call a prescriptive
nonfiction book, which is kind of a how to,
but not like a, you know,
do these five things.
I mean, it could be do these five things, but
it's in a book format,
not in a like checklist format.
Tiffany Hawk: Yeah. But we are open to talks and essays as
well if people are wanting to do that.
And I know that sounds like it's all over the
place, but it's not because it's the same
fundamentals and we're going to work on the
structure and really roll up our sleeves and
figure out what makes this special?
How are you going to make it stand out? Who's
your audience? And then what is the
structure? What are we going to pull in here,
whether it's short form or long form?
Carol Cox: Yes, exactly. So for an entire book feels
like too much of a heavy lift right now.
So that is not on your plate.
That is okay. You can come,
you can just work on finding and using your
voice. What is that authentic voice that
honestly gets? I know that mine has gotten
lost off and on over the years where it kind
of drifts away, and then I have to like,
rein it back in because I feel myself
diluting my voice kind of coming back to what
I think the internet wants or the algorithms
want, or what all the stuff that's been going
on in the news over the past year plus wants
women not to be sane.
And I know we're all susceptible to this.
And so I that's why I need this community of
women to, to remind me to remind all of us
how important it is for us to keep using our
voices to say the things that need to be
said, obviously, in a way that's appropriate
for us and, you know, our businesses and our
careers and all of that. But to to really not
be silent. I had a guest on last month who
said basically, don't let someone silence
you. Like, don't sound like yourself before
someone else has a chance to silence you.
Right? And I think, and I feel like we do
that a lot of times.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh, we do that all the time.
I do, I should say.
I do that all the time.
I'm working my way out of that.
Carol Cox: Yes, we all do.
Which is why we keep needing these reminders
and, and, and to be around each other to
encourage us to do so.
Okay. So we've talked about the second book
that you were working on, the one that you
already wrote 180,000 words for,
and then through.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh, well, maybe, maybe it was that much.
Is that what I. Yeah, I would believe it.
Yeah, I've probably been right.
Carol Cox: Okay. So what can you tell us about the book
and what stage is it at and what have you
learned through this process?
Tiffany Hawk: Oh my gosh, I can't talk too much.
It's a psychological thriller set in Tucson
and I don't know what all I'd have to ask my
new almost agent what I can say online about
exactly what the hook is. But yeah,
it. Psychological thriller set in Tucson for
now. We're gonna leave it at that. We're
gonna leave it at that. So it's fiction.
Despite me saying, oh, we're not doing
fiction. At that workshop,
I wrote another novel.
Um, I had just sat on this for years and
years and years and felt like I didn't have
the time. Nobody would want to hear it.
I was just focused on work,
didn't want to take time away from the kids.
And I just had lost belief in myself.
Like, talk about silencing yourself like I
had for many years accidentally become
financially dependent on my husband because
he was in the military and we were moving and
moving and moving. And that was just chipping
away more and more and more and more at my
career. Um, that really led to a lot of self
silencing because I felt so dependent in that
way. And, and this is what actually the talk
that I want to work with you on and I like
Brene Brown says you can't selectively numb.
I don't believe you can selectively silence.
So when I was not saying things I needed to
be saying in my life and in my marriage
because I was worried about health insurance
and finances and all these things, which was
good for neither of us.
Um, it started to snowball into being quiet
in other places.
And then I gradually started speaking out,
taking your class because I know I needed to
or your workshop.
Um, a little by little until I finally
started to regain a little bit of my voice.
But I'll tell you, I still did not believe I
decided to do this book.
I had heard a podcast with Taffy
Brodesser-akner who wrote,
uh, Fleishman is in Trouble, which is just
one of the best books ever.
And I've followed her career for a long time.
And she said on this podcast that she did
what I earlier told you I did.
She took six months.
She dialed back on work.
She didn't ignore her kids,
but she, you know, took time away from her
family and only gave it that time and she was
going to be done. She had to know if she
could do it. And if it didn't work out,
now she's going to go back to her family,
whatever. She can't take more than six months
out of their income and out of their lives.
So I said, I'm going to do this exact same
thing. I mean, not if she can do it.
I can do it because she's like one of the
most brilliant writers in the entire world.
And my book does not come near her level.
But I liked the structure of that and the
limited time, so that I could say,
I am going to neglect other things.
I'm going to dial back on work.
I'm going to make less money. This is going
to pinch. I'm probably going to take a hit in
terms of my business and,
you know, thought leadership and all of that.
I'm going to make my kids crazy and I'm going
to sit here while they're doing what they're
doing, and I'm going to be typing all the
time. I'm going to get up at 4:00 in the
morning or 3:00 in the morning.
Perimenopause helps with that because half
the time I wake up anyways.
But all right, I'll get up and I'll go down
and turn on the fireplace or sit outside or
whatever, depending on what time of year it
is. And I did it.
I had that shitty first draft and it was so
shitty, I. I said, this is not even going to
come to that level. This is going to be a
prototype or a barf draft,
as some people say. And I had that and I
couldn't believe it because I really kind of
had started to believe that I couldn't do
this, even though I'm helping people do this
day in, day out, getting my students and
clients agents and book deals and
self-publishing awards and all kinds of
things. Some part of me didn't believe,
and I realized that when I finished it,
but then came editing it,
and this whole time I just kept taking
action. I still didn't believe I should tell
you part of why. Not only had it been a long
time since I'd written the book, since having
kids and starting a business and moving a
million times, but I did write a book after
my first one came out 13 years ago,
and my agent hated it.
It wasn't good. I did it like I tell people
not to because I needed to check the box.
It was time. It had been two years.
I needed another book to come out and it was
okay. It was proficient.
It was fine. You know,
the sentences she said,
were slick and professional,
but she was completely right.
Like this was not a story I was burning to
tell. It was really, really blah.
And she wasn't going to sell it.
And that really threw me.
And so for the longest time,
I didn't really just didn't believe I had it
anymore. She said to me,
it's been a while since your last book, but
didn't you used to be funny?
And that that really burned and that is stuck
in my head for a long time. Lovely woman.
We're still friends. She's only representing
non-fiction now.
So I also needed to start from scratch.
I needed to find a new literary agent.
So I finished. But then it was like,
am I going to be able to find an agent? She
hated my old book. I'm starting from scratch.
Yes, I teach people day in,
day out how to do this,
but now that adds me pressure on me because
it's like, oh, if I try this and I fail now I
look like I can't do my job.
And I'm like, just, I can't even do what I'm
teaching. So I put all this pressure on
myself. But I just kept taking action.
And I worked with an editor,
and then the first couple agents I sent it to
rejected it because that's pretty normal.
But then two people came back and absolutely
loved it and wanted to represent it.
And that was the point where I realized,
oh, I haven't believed all this time,
because suddenly I did believe because these
are really great agents.
So then I followed up with the other people
who were reading the full manuscript, and
then I had three more people want to offer on
it, which I don't know how much your
listeners know, but that's really, really
rare. Still doesn't mean I'm going to get a
book deal, but there's a lot of excitement
and momentum right now. I'm kind of trying to
decide who I'm going to work with,
which is quite a champagne problem to have.
But until that happened,
I didn't believe in myself anymore,
and now I'm just thanking myself for doing
it, for putting one foot in front of the
other and like, Holy cow, I did it.
I can't believe I got to this point or that I
had so little belief.
It's kind of silly, but it's natural,
I guess, for us to do that.
Carol Cox: What kept driving you forward?
Tiffany Hawk: At first it was just that deadline.
I was not going to get to that because I knew
I had to quit. Like if I,
at six months couldn't do this,
it was pack it up and put it away and focus
on my family and my business and be done.
And I can just let that go and know that it's
no good. But it was just held together just
enough for me to say, okay,
this has a beginning, middle and end. What
can I do with it? It was that clay.
I had the Stephen King clay to shape
something with, and then the next draft,
it was like, okay, this got just a little bit
better. And also it was community too.
I didn't know anything about writing a
thriller. I have a lot of experience in
writing and editing and publishing.
Nothing about thriller and plotting and all
that. So I took a couple of different
thriller writing classes and people in the
classes and the teachers were like,
oh, this is really, really good. So I will
admit, like having that outside belief in me
was really huge, I don't know what would have
happened if I didn't have those people
pushing. And then also one of the classes I
took, I'm going to talk a lot more about this
later once I'm through this process,
but was with a, um, organization called the
novel, which this is only for fiction,
but they were instrumental in this whole
entire process and I rave about them.
They were really incredible.
Uh, helped me a lot of the way.
So having those people believe in me was,
I guess just enough, even though I didn't
still believe to keep going.
Carol Cox: Oh, I love this, Tiffany.
Well, first, congratulations.
I am so excited for you.
To read it. Once it's out,
hopefully I'll at least get an advanced
galley copy okay.
I don't have to wait until actual publication
date.
Tiffany Hawk: No.
Carol Cox: Okay, so congratulations on that.
But to your point, you know,
again, like you mentioned, the importance of
community, but also constraints.
And I feel like that is also what happens so,
so much. Is that why we don't ever finish
Whatever it is that we want to finish is that
it's always open ended because there are no
constraints on it.
This is why I love external deadlines,
and I will tie a completion of something to
an external deadline that I cannot change.
It's a conference that I'm speaking at and
that's the date of the conference. I can't
change it. So whatever it is,
it has to be done.
The reason this podcast,
launched nine years ago in February 2017,
is because I was speaking at a podcasting
conference and I did not yet have a podcast.
But by gosh, I had one two days before that
conference started so.
Tiffany Hawk: Yeah you know, you remind me, I also gave
myself an external deadline.
I had that initial six month deadline and
then to edit it because now I'm getting
tired. I hired an editor however many months
later, I can't quite remember,
and I dropped thousands of dollars to have
this, you know, someone who was really versed
in crime and thrillers because I have friends
and things that I could have had as beta
readers, but I knew I wanted to do this at a
professional level, and I needed professional
help from someone, so I was I had already
spent that money and booked that time,
so I'll be damned if I'm gonna waste that.
I'm gonna make sure I edit it to the best of
my ability before I get there.
And you know, not even just edit,
but revise and completely rewrite to get it
ready for her. So definitely money where your
mouth is and external deadlines for sure.
Carol Cox: So our retreat in Spain this fall could be
that external deadline,
that constraint for you listening to get
whatever that project is the book,
the essay, the, the talk,
however you want to use your voice to get
that to the next stage in development because
you're going to be there and you're going to
be learning a lot from us and from the other
women there, and you're going to make
progress in momentum on whatever it is that
you're working on.
Tiffany Hawk: I love how neatly that came together.
I wasn't even thinking that when I said that
about hiring an editor.
Carol Cox: This is why I do the work I do because I got
post-it notes everywhere in my brain.
I'm like, I'm like the,
uh, the crime detective who is doing all of
the string between the dots on the board.
Tiffany Hawk: Oh, I did. That for my book.
I'll hire you next time to help me with it.
Carol Cox: Oh, my God, I would love that.
Oh, there's so much fun.
All right, Tiffany, so tell us other ways
that listeners can work with you.
Tiffany Hawk: Well, I'm going to be reviving my
breakthrough book proposal class, the one
that you were in before. But for now, I'm
going to do it a little bit differently. It's
only going to be for women and it's going to
be application only.
And we're going to have a very small,
intimate group, 15 people only,
so that we can get a lot more personalized
attention. And I'm going to have agents and
editors at the end of it that you can present
your work to. Even if you're not ready,
they can be really, really invaluable
resources for just hearing your hook and
telling you what they see in it and where it
might fit into the market,
or things that you might want to think about
and do Q and A and all of that.
So I'm excited to launch that again.
I don't have a set date,
but it won't be for a few months for sure.
I'm putting the finishing details because I
want to make sure it's very,
um, that we have really,
really great female authors as models in
there and changing up some of the material,
but making it very high end and exclusive and
women.
Carol Cox: Oh, that sounds great. All right. Man but
well, you know, and I,
yeah, so I, I, you know,
obviously a lot of our programs are women
focused here speaking your brand, but we do
have a number of male clients increasing.
So I always say like, if you vibe with us,
I'm more than happy to work with you one on
one and we do. And, and it's a lot of fun.
Tiffany Hawk: And I do men can work with me one on one as
well. I don't have those launch,
but I will be in the next couple months.
I'm doing one on one intensives for book
proposals.
Carol Cox: Oh, fun. All right. So go to
TiffanyHawk.com/intensive for this
breakthrough proposal intensive.
And we'll have links in the show notes. And
if you're interested in learning more about
this writing and speaking retreat story to
Spotlight in Spain later this fall,
go to speaking your brand.com/spain.
Get all the details and apply.
So we do the application form because then
one of us will schedule a Zoom call with you.
We just want to touch base with you and learn
a little bit more about what you want to work
on. Answer your questions about the retreat.
Make sure it's a great fit for what you're
you want to work on.
And then, well, we'll get you to the next
step in the process.
So we're excited to, to bring all of this,
this curated group of women together and to
kind of get like, like Tiffany said, like get
away from the news cycle and from social
media and all the algorithms touch base again
with who we are, our embodied selves and our
voices and have an amazing time with great
food and drink and excursions and,
and whether, and just,
uh, it's going to be, it's going to be
wonderful.
Tiffany Hawk: Yes. And you were saying private rooms,
they're like private casitas of their own
with their own bathroom and their own
terrace. So it's going to be really hopefully
just absolutely beautiful. I can't wait.
Carol Cox: And you can get those pictures on that.
Speaking your Brand.com page.
Go there. You can see pictures, even a little
video of the villa as well.
So again, the page is great.
Tiffany did an amazing job putting all this
together. So I think you have all the
information that you need.
So go ahead and apply so we can chat and
learn more about you.
All right. Well I think that's it.
Tiffany, thank you so much for coming on the
Speaking Your Brand podcast.
Tiffany Hawk: It's been great being here.
So much fun thank you.
Carol Cox: Until next time. Thanks for listening.