WEBVTT 00:00:05.437 --> 00:00:15.407 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke and this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut, honest conversations 00:00:15.690 --> 00:00:19.822 about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:20.247 --> 00:00:28.647 We're sitting down to have this conversation today and Cameron, you said you had a question. 00:00:28.647 --> 00:00:32.615 So I'm going to let you take over. 00:00:32.887 --> 00:00:38.207 So it comes from, well, let's back up a little bit. I do have a question. 00:00:38.207 --> 00:00:47.513 I do have a question. But I'm gonna, we'll preface it by saying we forever have, not the argument, but the 00:00:47.767 --> 00:00:52.798 discussion as to who can do audio books and who cannot do audio books. 00:00:53.698 --> 00:00:59.207 Right? I hear a lot of people, and they're always like, oh, I read that book, and I read that 00:00:59.207 --> 00:01:01.527 book, and I read that book, and I read that book, and I read that book, and I read that 00:01:01.527 --> 00:01:06.967 book. And I'm like, where do you get the time to sit down and read these books? 00:01:06.967 --> 00:01:15.927 What they mean is, I listened to that book while I was driving, or vacuuming, or running on the 00:01:15.927 --> 00:01:23.207 treadmill, or whatever. And I have always been not a person that can really do audiobooks. I, 00:01:23.685 --> 00:01:37.207 I wish I could, but I don't ever have the focused time where I can sit down and actually listen to them. 00:01:37.207 --> 00:01:43.598 And then there's just something about, I think I have this very deep seated latent fear that 00:01:43.727 --> 00:01:47.607 if I don't have the actual physical book in front of me that I can underline, I'm going 00:01:47.607 --> 00:01:51.177 to miss something or forget it or something like that. 00:01:51.247 --> 00:01:58.587 Were you like the guy in class who wanted to get everything down in your notes kinda yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yep. 00:02:01.791 --> 00:02:10.541 But I also recognize that I don't digest as much material as others do because of that. 00:02:10.801 --> 00:02:17.201 And so trying to change that and it's like, okay, well, what are the, when do I act? 00:02:17.201 --> 00:02:26.641 When do, when do I have any time? One time that I have like time where I don't normally need to think too much is when I'm 00:02:26.641 --> 00:02:28.961 at the gym, not jujitsu, right? 00:02:28.961 --> 00:02:32.961 Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. trying to choke you out. Yeah, correct. 00:02:32.961 --> 00:02:34.961 You're not listening. I can't have someone in my ears listening to... 00:02:34.961 --> 00:02:38.481 Not listen to the seven habits of highly effective people while someone's got you in 00:02:38.481 --> 00:02:43.112 a chokehold. No, the art of war. 00:02:43.401 --> 00:02:47.622 But I go to the gym a couple of times a week in the mornings. 00:02:48.801 --> 00:02:55.001 And so I was like, okay, I have Audible, got lots of credits on it, download a few books. 00:02:55.001 --> 00:03:03.601 And so I started, um, this week, one of the books that we were introduced to at, um, GLS 00:03:03.601 --> 00:03:14.241 up that you are also reading that, um, the director of operations, Jessica Conduit is also reading. 00:03:14.241 --> 00:03:20.841 So, okay. So that's the book that I will read, but we're going to change that language. All right. 00:03:20.841 --> 00:03:30.161 Cause you're not reading anything. Anyway, so I downloaded it and started listening to it. 00:03:30.355 --> 00:03:30.644 Mm-hmm. 00:03:31.247 --> 00:03:34.521 It's good. It's a good book. Leveling Up by Ryan Leak. 00:03:35.226 --> 00:03:39.709 Yep. I really recommend it. 00:03:41.081 --> 00:03:46.601 So the question that I want to ask you... He's got some heavy-hitting questions in there. 00:03:46.601 --> 00:03:51.121 So I'm like sitting here like, I've read a couple chapters of the book and I'm like, 00:03:51.121 --> 00:03:55.681 question is he going to ask? That's pretty much the first one. Yeah. Pretty much the first question. 00:03:55.681 --> 00:04:04.881 Right? And he does ask some pretty good questions, but what? 00:04:06.527 --> 00:04:15.268 Is Success Mm-hmm according to Luke Miller It's a hard question, 00:04:16.537 --> 00:04:23.137 And we have to answer it according to Luke Miller. Yeah, we're according to Cameron Lightheart. Mm-hmm, right? Yeah, because. 00:04:24.954 --> 00:04:36.459 Everyone's Definition Is different. Mm-hmm and it changes over time. Yeah, or it can change over time. I guess I should say Yeah, you know, 00:04:37.197 --> 00:04:41.697 He gives a couple examples in the book about how the definition of success that he had when he was a kid, 00:04:42.509 --> 00:04:44.517 was that you had a, 00:04:45.377 --> 00:04:48.137 Unlimited minutes on your cell phone, right? 00:04:48.909 --> 00:04:57.377 Yeah, if you were rich enough to have that because AT&T lets you talk Free after 7 Verizon free after 9 and then there were some people who had unlimited, 00:04:59.037 --> 00:05:06.697 Yeah, right. You could talk as much as you wanted to I I remember friends getting grounded for months 00:05:07.017 --> 00:05:13.477 because they went over their minutes during certain hours or whatever and like racking up hundreds of dollars 00:05:13.477 --> 00:05:15.133 on their parents' cell phone bill. 00:05:15.457 --> 00:05:24.017 Yeah, I remember when it was a really like, I was like, wow, when there was, 00:05:24.017 --> 00:05:29.122 especially my wife's family at the time had call waiting on their landline. 00:05:30.761 --> 00:05:34.337 So when you called in, it didn't ring busy. 00:05:35.802 --> 00:05:39.557 It actually rang, but you got a little beep if you were talking on the phone 00:05:39.557 --> 00:05:43.997 But let you know you had another call in you could click out of one call and come and do another 00:05:44.117 --> 00:05:49.397 Did you did they have like waiting music? No? No, I was just ring the phone was ringing. 00:05:51.397 --> 00:05:56.255 If you were on the phone it would beep in your ear beep so you knew you know another call coming in Wow, 00:05:57.786 --> 00:06:01.577 Fans you never experienced call waiting on a landline. No, I don't think we, 00:06:02.125 --> 00:06:04.097 I you weren't very successful. No, 00:06:05.977 --> 00:06:10.857 Also, we probably just weren't that popular Anyway, I thought it was super cool, 00:06:12.549 --> 00:06:15.757 And so he gives some examples of what it success meant for him as a kid. 00:06:17.888 --> 00:06:29.857 But the whole point here is like, okay, how are we It's pretty difficult to determine a direction for anything in life that you want to pursue level up in. Yeah without a 00:06:29.857 --> 00:06:39.277 definition of success. So if you had to begin to define what it means, what success is, 00:06:39.277 --> 00:06:50.897 let's say professionally, as a pastor, and personally, as a person, what would it be for you? 00:06:50.980 --> 00:07:04.217 So, this is, it's a really interesting question because I've really wrestled with, like, where 00:07:04.217 --> 00:07:08.897 Where does ambition sit in the life of a pastor? 00:07:10.155 --> 00:07:14.005 Like, that's always been an interesting question for me to try and wrestle with, of like, 00:07:15.061 --> 00:07:21.285 is this something I feel called to? Is this something I just want to do? Is this something 00:07:21.285 --> 00:07:29.605 that like, is it okay to want to pursue whatever kind of success is? Like, is it okay to have 00:07:29.605 --> 00:07:35.765 ambition inside of my professional life, which is also my ministry life? You know, there's always 00:07:35.765 --> 00:07:40.165 been that. So I've kind of, I've wrestled with that. 00:07:40.165 --> 00:07:44.760 Yeah, because ambition and that can look a lot like pride. Yeah. 00:07:45.125 --> 00:07:54.125 Or self-centeredness or materialism or whatever. Right. And so that's kind of, I'm like, huh. And that's always been actually a question that I've 00:07:54.125 --> 00:08:00.965 had to like, I've been bouncing back and forth in my, in myself. Anytime I've wrestled with like 00:08:01.189 --> 00:08:09.065 goals or things like that that I've wanted to do on a larger scale in my professional life, I've always been like, am I 00:08:09.065 --> 00:08:12.805 allowed to want to pursue that? That's always been a question. 00:08:13.261 --> 00:08:21.365 Of the I've like, just personally asked myself, I'm just like, is this, is this just pride? Or is this something 00:08:21.365 --> 00:08:26.278 that like, I actually want to or ought to be doing, you know, so 00:08:26.413 --> 00:08:38.565 that's always so when I read the book, and I was like, listen to the book? No, I was reading it, actually. I actually have a paper copy of it. My wife is 00:08:38.565 --> 00:08:47.285 listening to it, but I am actually physically reading it. I was reading it very diligently, 00:08:47.285 --> 00:08:54.325 and I kind of stopped here the last couple days. And so, getting into that chapter and 00:08:54.325 --> 00:08:57.765 sitting there and trying to think, okay, and he has a really 00:08:57.765 --> 00:09:09.205 good paradigm because he's not he's, he really tries to encourage you away from naming, like, an achievement, 00:09:09.516 --> 00:09:21.605 necessarily your success, but kind of you pursuing after qualities and pursuing after, you know, being a type of 00:09:21.605 --> 00:09:25.351 person. It kind of tries to kind of break down the, because 00:09:25.505 --> 00:09:28.145 that's the whole point of that illustration, right? Is that. 00:09:28.565 --> 00:09:36.245 Well, if you were pursuing, like, a cell phone of unlimited minutes, and you got it, well, now that seems like a really 00:09:36.245 --> 00:09:42.788 silly achievement. Right? And so what would be, you know, you. 00:09:43.825 --> 00:09:46.285 You know, like thinking about this, like. 00:09:49.135 --> 00:09:53.918 You know, this podcast, you know, we're like, Oh, well, like, let's pursue so many people listening 00:09:54.122 --> 00:10:00.078 to this podcast, which like, might be a goal that we pursue. But if that's the ultimate goal, 00:10:00.078 --> 00:10:05.758 that's the main thing we go after. In, I don't know, 20 years when nobody listens 00:10:05.758 --> 00:10:09.759 to podcasts anymore, and everything's just downloaded into our brain, like, 00:10:10.272 --> 00:10:17.798 Like, all right, I'll chill my existentialism. 00:10:17.798 --> 00:10:23.838 And you know, we're at that place like, and we're like, oh yeah, we had this podcast with 00:10:23.838 --> 00:10:30.398 so many listeners and people be like, so like, well, having a successful podcast be a silly 00:10:30.398 --> 00:10:32.886 thing in the future, right? 00:10:33.278 --> 00:10:35.461 And so what would be a better goal for it? 00:10:35.918 --> 00:10:48.398 Perhaps a better goal would be to have anyone who listens to this podcast benefit from it. That would be a better goal or something like that. So anyways, 00:10:48.398 --> 00:10:53.627 I'm just dodging the question you asked me is all I'm actually doing. 00:10:54.118 --> 00:11:00.438 All right, so some of the things I kind of put down professionally and have been 00:11:00.438 --> 00:11:07.558 kind of some of my somewhat professional goals, is I've really wanted to explore. 00:11:10.678 --> 00:11:18.198 Becoming a better writer and preacher. I feel like. 00:11:20.758 --> 00:11:37.158 Those, particularly preaching, has been a thing that has been kind of a a significant gift that has been affirmed in my life throughout years, even as I was pursuing 00:11:37.158 --> 00:11:44.198 ministry while I was in Bible college, I would have professors who would pull me aside and say 00:11:44.198 --> 00:11:49.158 things like, you need to make sure that you get into a position where you get to preach. You need 00:11:49.158 --> 00:11:55.318 to continue to steward that gift. And so, and they hear lots of people preaching. 00:11:55.318 --> 00:11:55.644 Sure. 00:11:55.833 --> 00:12:00.838 So, they don't just say that to everybody, I'm assuming. I don't know. Maybe they're all just 00:12:00.838 --> 00:12:12.198 in conspiracy, but... So, that and preaching, like, is kind of a brother, at least in my mind, 00:12:12.198 --> 00:12:20.518 has a lot of brotherly relationship with writing in that, like, if you're writing good sermons, 00:12:21.478 --> 00:12:28.198 you are, in some sense, you're writing. So, there's some differences, obviously. 00:12:28.349 --> 00:12:38.513 But, so yeah, that too, is the way I kind of formulated it was to be be a writer or a preacher worth listening to. 00:12:41.051 --> 00:12:49.081 Like, how could I pursue, you know, so that like, what I like, beneficial to those who 00:12:49.081 --> 00:12:55.509 listen or to who those who would potentially read anything I wrote. 00:12:55.701 --> 00:13:03.301 And so like, that's been a big, overarching goal over the last, like, particularly this 00:13:03.301 --> 00:13:07.301 year, I set at the beginning of the year, I kind of was like, what would it look like 00:13:07.301 --> 00:13:15.061 if I leaned into sharpening some of my preaching skills a little bit. I grabbed an online preaching, 00:13:16.261 --> 00:13:22.741 course, master class type thing, which I've made partway through and it's been really just good, 00:13:22.741 --> 00:13:28.741 encouraging, and kind of helped me focus in on some, oh, I had never thought of that particular 00:13:28.741 --> 00:13:36.101 point before. So I guess professionally that's like one thing that seems particularly clear, 00:13:36.101 --> 00:13:42.661 that seems clear. And then the other piece, I guess, that has always been is just to. 00:13:44.418 --> 00:13:52.261 Execute the office of being a pastor faithfully, right? Because I remember reading before I was 00:13:52.261 --> 00:14:00.021 as a pastor, like reading the statistics on how many people either quit, fail, 00:14:00.021 --> 00:14:12.021 like get disqualified out of the pastorship. And it was a pretty high statistic. And so it's not a 00:14:12.021 --> 00:14:19.941 profession or a calling that a lot of people finish with. There's a high dropout rate. 00:14:20.193 --> 00:14:27.701 Or finish well. Or finish well. Yeah, that's even a higher percentage. And so 00:14:27.701 --> 00:14:36.501 So want to, for me, finish well over the long haul to be faithful. 00:14:36.501 --> 00:14:45.354 I think one of the things that we were doing like a leadership class last year, and you 00:14:45.741 --> 00:14:50.061 had us do everybody, you encouraged everybody to do an exercise of like, what would you 00:14:50.061 --> 00:14:51.836 want people to say at your funeral? 00:14:52.001 --> 00:14:54.361 Which was like a heavy question. 00:14:54.573 --> 00:14:56.101 Everybody really felt the weight of that question. 00:14:56.346 --> 00:14:58.093 Which is really a Stephen Covey question. 00:14:58.912 --> 00:15:04.101 Yeah. So, and I was like, okay, like, and for me, the way that that plays out 00:15:04.101 --> 00:15:12.199 is even more than faithful pastor, when more than a like writer or preacher worth listening to 00:15:12.321 --> 00:15:16.475 would be like, he impacted my life in some positive way. 00:15:17.844 --> 00:15:22.341 Like that would be, that would be the thing is to have positive impact on people's life, 00:15:22.341 --> 00:15:25.099 like a lasting impact. 00:15:25.321 --> 00:15:29.700 Like, I mean, you shouldn't be a pastor if you don't wanna help people. 00:15:31.014 --> 00:15:38.744 You know, so, um, so I guess those would be kind of like the professional markers of success for me. 00:15:39.350 --> 00:15:55.704 Um, and maybe I need to kind of level those down to maybe some smaller goals that aren't like, I don't know, like so long term, but those are kind of the, where that kind of sits for me personally, like I'm in my first year of marriage. 00:15:56.535 --> 00:16:05.144 And so, I'm still acclimating to being married and doing life differently, because up until 00:16:05.144 --> 00:16:16.016 now, my personal goal has been to get married or be successfully single, to be single well, 00:16:16.624 --> 00:16:20.328 which there's a whole podcast episode for you. 00:16:20.744 --> 00:16:28.164 And so now it's been like, okay, what does it look like to be a husband that my wife 00:16:28.164 --> 00:16:34.764 can depend upon to get things taken care of or done when she needs them to be done or 00:16:34.764 --> 00:16:44.584 to be anticipating that, to take care of and provide for a family well. 00:16:44.584 --> 00:16:51.404 So all of that is relatively new, not new in that I've never thought about it, but new 00:16:51.404 --> 00:16:54.888 in its reality to me a little bit. 00:16:55.744 --> 00:17:01.764 So yeah, I think that's kind of like, right now, like I would say probably the big one 00:17:01.764 --> 00:17:16.724 is to, my goal would be to be a husband who can be kind of relied upon with high confidence. 00:17:17.444 --> 00:17:32.833 That's kind of where that kind of sits for me, I think. Yeah, it must be a, I'm sure that it's a, the question is big, but especially in your 00:17:33.193 --> 00:17:38.270 personal life, you know, coming to the, coming to a, like a, 00:17:39.134 --> 00:17:40.755 There's not many to it. 00:17:42.006 --> 00:17:53.088 Transitional moments in personal life that are much bigger than getting married no it was a significant hinge point i went to bed by myself one night for the last. 00:17:53.394 --> 00:17:59.036 I'm well or went to bed as a single guy for the last time you know and so. 00:17:59.605 --> 00:18:10.716 That i went home with someone that was radically different like surprise yes and and she hasn't left so. It's very good. 00:18:10.716 --> 00:18:15.316 And so, but that, yeah, that's made a significant impact. And I guess like, even as I'm thinking 00:18:15.316 --> 00:18:19.572 about the question more broadly, because that has been such a massive. 00:18:21.276 --> 00:18:25.716 A massive shift, one of the things I've been, that's been a challenge personally, 00:18:25.716 --> 00:18:32.158 is to continue to prioritize like, my healthy friendships that I've built while I was single. 00:18:32.356 --> 00:18:39.539 To not let those necessarily go to the wayside, which is a very, very natural thing to have happen, 00:18:39.716 --> 00:18:42.216 even when you're dating someone seriously, right? 00:18:43.696 --> 00:18:48.156 People will moan, oh, where did he go? Like he got, you know, there's all those jokes 00:18:48.371 --> 00:18:52.836 that men will say about other men who went, go and spend time with like their fiance 00:18:52.836 --> 00:18:55.356 or girlfriend or wife and things like that. 00:18:55.356 --> 00:19:00.276 And there's some unhealthiness to that. We don't want to rag people for being faithful, 00:19:01.082 --> 00:19:02.675 to the person they make a covenant with. 00:19:02.836 --> 00:19:06.836 At the same time, we're not in covenants with our friends, we're not in covenants with our wives. 00:19:06.836 --> 00:19:14.356 No, like one of you has a covenant with the Lord with the other person, so don't, you know, 00:19:14.477 --> 00:19:20.196 don't prioritize boys' night out over, you know, being faithful to your wife, but at the same time, 00:19:20.196 --> 00:19:25.076 like, a healthy marriage thrives when partners have friends and relationships, 00:19:25.325 --> 00:19:32.436 And so like trying to keep that in mind that part of the part of me part of the 00:19:32.436 --> 00:19:35.002 the Luke, that Oksana. 00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:41.817 Liked, fell in love with, is the Luke who had good friends who were supporting him and 00:19:41.889 --> 00:19:47.319 he was interacting with, like, that was part of who she fell in love with. And if I let 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:54.636 that go aside, I'm not just missing fun times, I'm missing support, relational connection, 00:19:54.919 --> 00:20:01.479 places where I'm getting my needs met, I'm caring for other people, and that all is positive 00:20:01.479 --> 00:20:04.215 of things I get to bring into my marriage relationship. 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:11.119 So thinking through like also not just being a faithful husband but also being a faithful friend 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:17.997 in that capacity too of making sure that those, they don't eclipse each other but get to help one another. 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:27.621 I wanna go back to your professional goals and specifically around like being a writer or a preacher, 00:20:28.161 --> 00:20:30.925 that is worth listening to or worth reading. 00:20:31.719 --> 00:20:39.126 Like how do you imagine that you would gauge or measure what it means to be worth? 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:45.879 I don't know. Cause that's a really relative, like I literally came up with that phrase 00:20:45.879 --> 00:20:50.315 like two weeks ago. So it hasn't sat in my brain very much. 00:20:50.539 --> 00:20:57.490 So I don't know exactly what that, Other than just knowing that I'm sharpening my axe well. 00:20:58.390 --> 00:21:01.999 Well, like that I'm like like because I I want to, 00:21:04.836 --> 00:21:13.326 There's a book on my shelf that's a fantastic book. It's called Caring for Words in a World 00:21:13.326 --> 00:21:21.566 of Lies. It's a book about writing. It's about words, sentences, phrases, and it talks about 00:21:21.566 --> 00:21:30.766 how we use language and what's the ethics over how we use language. Like, am I just using language 00:21:30.766 --> 00:21:35.766 in order to cajole, convince, to get something from someone. 00:21:37.712 --> 00:21:41.304 Am I selling you something and I'm trying to just get it from you? 00:21:41.686 --> 00:21:48.506 Or am I engaging in words and language in a way that's like, actually treats you as an other, 00:21:49.046 --> 00:21:56.059 and we get to partake in this and have a true conversation. So it's reflections and stuff like that. 00:21:56.286 --> 00:22:03.986 So like, I want to read that. want to look at some books of like, um, I'd love to find like a resource that 00:22:03.986 --> 00:22:06.466 analyzes how CS Lewis wrote sentences. 00:22:08.386 --> 00:22:12.746 Cause he wrote really good sentences. Like if you want to get, if you want to get technical, like on the 00:22:12.746 --> 00:22:18.386 technical side of writing, like, like Lewis was a master at writing excellent 00:22:18.386 --> 00:22:21.535 sentences, like he really was good at that. 00:22:21.626 --> 00:22:30.526 And so like thinking through like, okay, how do I, at the sentence level, craft a good sentence, not just a MLA approved 00:22:30.526 --> 00:22:35.526 sentence that will make my teacher happy, but is something that someone can read. 00:22:35.526 --> 00:22:42.926 So I guess there is a little bit of doing some judging myself, 00:22:42.926 --> 00:22:52.224 kind of pursuing some of those technical aspects to see what can I learn and what can I do to practice and be that. 00:22:52.287 --> 00:22:59.466 And then the other thing I would say like speak and write things that are worth that I know are worth listening to 00:22:59.466 --> 00:23:05.026 or I myself have found beneficial in my own soul right like I shouldn't I 00:23:05.026 --> 00:23:11.106 shouldn't write something that I myself wouldn't read wouldn't read or doesn't 00:23:11.106 --> 00:23:17.146 or don't think is like beneficial like or or isn't contributing to the 00:23:17.146 --> 00:23:24.746 conversation in a meaningful way. And so like that, you know. Do you feel like you 00:23:24.746 --> 00:23:32.266 have a different writing voice than you have a, let's say, preaching or speaking 00:23:32.266 --> 00:23:38.106 voice like when you write what kind of voice do you feel like you 00:23:37.461 --> 00:23:44.050 They're probably pretty similar, if for no other reason, because I've mostly just been 00:23:44.050 --> 00:23:51.650 writing sermons, you know, like, and even in my sermon writing, when I manuscript, I 00:23:51.650 --> 00:23:58.913 do sort of just let form and structure kind of go, because in, like, preaching, like a. 00:23:59.250 --> 00:24:09.824 Really strong way to make a point is to do that bulleted list thing, and the Lord was with them 00:24:10.130 --> 00:24:18.450 in the water and in the fire. That's a really strong rhetorical thing to do when you're. 00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:26.530 Speaking, but doesn't translate very well into the written word. That's a little bit harder to do. 00:24:26.530 --> 00:24:32.690 So, when I myself am writing a sermon, I'll kind of break what would be good written form 00:24:32.816 --> 00:24:40.210 in order to just write purely for the hearing. Because that's the primary, 00:24:40.890 --> 00:24:46.930 space where that's going to be used. I'm certainly by no means like a John Piper. Like, if you ever, 00:24:47.804 --> 00:24:54.690 listen to John Piper, you could as might as well just read him. Because he manuscripts, 00:24:54.690 --> 00:25:01.290 like his book writing is his preaching and so if you you were to ever read a 00:25:01.290 --> 00:25:05.550 manuscript of his you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a book he 00:25:05.550 --> 00:25:08.644 had written or a sermon he'd preached. It's a smart use of his intellectual, 00:25:09.383 --> 00:25:19.090 energy. Absolutely I mean and that's I mean that's who he that's how he's gifted right he's you know Dr. Piper you know like he's and that's how he 00:25:19.090 --> 00:25:23.830 he does it, you know, but for me, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm not, 00:25:24.173 --> 00:25:31.357 I'm not smart enough to be an academic preacher or I'm not Like, like, I don't think I could. 00:25:32.285 --> 00:25:39.175 You are, it's just not how you choose. It's just, yeah, yeah. It's just not my, it's just not my, it's not my jam. 00:25:39.815 --> 00:25:43.815 So, but Piper also thinks you shouldn't tell jokes in her sermons. 00:25:43.815 --> 00:25:45.175 Yeah, well, Piper's a... 00:25:50.865 --> 00:25:55.975 Brother in Christ. He's a brother in Christ. I don't always agree with him either, but have benefited from him. 00:25:56.131 --> 00:26:01.655 Um, so, so yeah, that's kind of, you know, I think there's a little bit of the 00:26:01.655 --> 00:26:09.155 question of like, I don't know, I guess like the, the other, the unanswered or 00:26:09.155 --> 00:26:12.975 the untouched question, I think you were, your original question was getting at is 00:26:12.975 --> 00:26:18.061 like, is there a num numeric value behind like how many people would read or listen? 00:26:18.655 --> 00:26:25.415 No, no, no. Okay. I, I, I mean, because there are, you know, I have similar, 00:26:27.295 --> 00:26:30.135 I have similar definitions of success. 00:26:30.135 --> 00:26:35.135 I think mine have changed over the years. 00:26:43.175 --> 00:26:49.015 I wouldn't say that there, you know, I don't want to say like from a patron, 00:26:49.015 --> 00:26:51.279 I don't want to say it so patronizingly, 00:26:51.895 --> 00:26:58.255 I don't want it to sound patronizing when I say that now I've been preaching 00:26:58.255 --> 00:27:02.370 for 18, almost 19 years now. 00:27:03.855 --> 00:27:10.760 And in the span of that preaching, you do a lot of writing and you do a lot of reading, 00:27:12.135 --> 00:27:24.575 and your gift changes and the way that you preach changes changes and the way that you view preaching changes and how you preach. 00:27:24.575 --> 00:27:27.655 Everything changes. you're kind of in an evolution. 00:27:32.456 --> 00:27:40.746 So, no, I don't think that I, there's not, not looking for a numeric number or anything 00:27:40.746 --> 00:27:49.426 like that because, you know, I also like have a similar desire to write. 00:27:49.426 --> 00:27:58.625 I think, um, I think actually that I am probably a better writer than I am a speaker. 00:27:59.746 --> 00:28:04.746 I think that it just works better for me. 00:28:06.358 --> 00:28:13.767 I feel like I'm a better writer than I am a speaker. But one of the big questions has always been, 00:28:14.106 --> 00:28:18.133 would you write if no one read it? 00:28:19.726 --> 00:28:29.386 And I think you become a, you have the heart of a writer when the answer is yes. 00:28:29.854 --> 00:28:38.206 I would write if no one read it, because the reason I write is because there's something, 00:28:38.206 --> 00:28:44.506 God has planted something inside of me, and this is the way to get it out. Now obviously. 00:28:45.689 --> 00:28:57.026 I think every writer wants to be read. I want to be read as I write. But I don't think that 00:28:57.428 --> 00:29:07.346 success, no, is measured in any number of readers or listeners or anything like that. I think that's 00:29:07.346 --> 00:29:13.506 actually a fairly poor definition of success because it stands kind of in the same place. 00:29:14.626 --> 00:29:21.986 As everything else. Well, okay, so if you say that I have a goal of being a writer that sells 00:29:21.986 --> 00:29:31.266 10,000 books, what happens when you sell 10,000 books? Are you done writing at that point? Or do 00:29:31.266 --> 00:29:39.626 you understand the task of writing or the goal of writing to be something different than numeric? 00:29:39.847 --> 00:29:48.706 Which was the root of my further question about what does it mean to be a writer worth reading? 00:29:48.706 --> 00:29:57.306 Yeah, because when you look at, like view Google, and you go and look at some of the 00:29:57.306 --> 00:30:00.586 stuff that like, what does it take to be a New York Times bestseller? 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:06.666 Your church has to buy thousands of books and put them in the closet here. 00:30:06.666 --> 00:30:14.317 Yeah, I think you have to sell upwards of $5,000 or 5,000 copies in one day or something like that, 00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:17.728 that, which is a massive amount of books to move in a single day. 00:30:17.786 --> 00:30:25.668 And like, in order to do that, there has to be such a marketing machine behind you. 00:30:28.306 --> 00:30:33.856 It's, it's a little bit like, and, and sometimes like this is, this is the other 00:30:33.856 --> 00:30:39.236 thing too, is that you have to be willing to write the book that will sell, not the 00:30:39.236 --> 00:30:46.058 book that you maybe want to write or want to read or feel like you ought to write. 00:30:46.916 --> 00:30:54.142 And so you very quickly will, you know, you can chase the number, but is that what you want? 00:30:54.638 --> 00:30:57.476 Right? At the end of the day. Right. 00:30:57.476 --> 00:31:02.356 It's necessarily what I want. And besides the best advice I saw was like if you 00:31:02.356 --> 00:31:07.133 want to sell a lot of books like you should just be a good writer. Yeah. Like 00:31:07.436 --> 00:31:14.436 focus on that and if that follows then good for you. But like you know that kind 00:31:14.436 --> 00:31:22.956 of. You need to write about things that you want to write about. Right. I can't I can't 00:31:22.956 --> 00:31:33.104 tell you how difficult it is to preach about things I don't want to preach about. Yeah. Right? It's impossible. You really can't as a preacher. And so to, you. 00:31:34.136 --> 00:31:37.116 Know, imagine writing about something that you don't want to write about or 00:31:37.116 --> 00:31:48.276 something that you don't have passion for or not interested in or haven't experienced or something like that. It's a really just difficult, trodding type of, 00:31:48.777 --> 00:31:55.656 work. Yeah, you end up having to, you have to push through the resistance, which 00:31:55.656 --> 00:32:02.616 might be your flesh, or might be our, like, yeah, might be any number of things. 00:32:02.616 --> 00:32:07.836 So, but, so what then are your, what, do you want to be a writer, or how do you 00:32:07.836 --> 00:32:12.556 conceptualize, is that how, is that one of the big things that you conceptualize 00:32:12.556 --> 00:32:18.316 like a goal of success in your professional life? What? No, I don't. I, 00:32:18.971 --> 00:32:24.903 I think that writing can be a tool that is used. 00:32:27.298 --> 00:32:32.058 To pursue how I feel about what success is. 00:32:34.401 --> 00:32:37.698 Because to use the funeral analogy again. 00:32:40.818 --> 00:32:46.858 I think it's an important analogy and simply because it does, 00:32:46.858 --> 00:32:50.974 I think it does get down to the root of what we want to be known for. 00:32:52.218 --> 00:32:55.745 Yeah. And that's really what you're talking about with success. 00:32:56.141 --> 00:32:58.086 What are you going to be known for? Yep. 00:32:58.378 --> 00:33:09.123 Right. And there's really two places that I want to be known for, or to be known. 00:33:09.498 --> 00:33:10.707 I want to be known in heaven. 00:33:12.578 --> 00:33:22.473 And I want to be known in the lives, minds, hearts, and memories of my wife and my kids. 00:33:22.698 --> 00:33:24.372 And then by extension, my grandkids. 00:33:29.578 --> 00:33:31.187 I was thinking about this as I was, 00:33:33.278 --> 00:33:41.378 beating the pavement of the treadmill this morning. How would I articulate what really is my truest heart, 00:33:43.298 --> 00:33:48.298 desire for my ministry and my calling? 00:33:48.616 --> 00:34:04.818 And you know I would say like first personally is you know he he made some Ryan leak made some kind 00:34:04.818 --> 00:34:12.298 of reference to you know if someday your Thanksgiving table is empty mm-hmm you probably 00:34:12.298 --> 00:34:17.298 have not reached any worthwhile level of success. 00:34:18.935 --> 00:34:23.578 And I was thinking, how would I articulate, 00:34:25.858 --> 00:34:32.682 what I feel in my soul about wanting to be a success in my personal life? 00:34:33.838 --> 00:34:38.338 And the only way that I really can feel like I want, like I could say at this point, 00:34:38.338 --> 00:34:44.698 and it's really young and fresh, and probably it's not, probably wouldn't change 00:34:44.698 --> 00:34:45.870 if I had some time to sit with it, 00:34:47.258 --> 00:34:52.258 is I, success for me would be. 00:34:54.538 --> 00:35:03.658 To be the greatest example of the character of Jesus the character of Jesus that my kids and my wife have ever seen. 00:35:07.097 --> 00:35:18.427 Hmm. I remember growing. I remember not growing. I remember in college we sat in a dorm room a bunch of guys and we were like kind of asking the question who is the, 00:35:19.349 --> 00:35:22.127 Person that in your life that is most like Jesus, 00:35:24.778 --> 00:35:33.167 All right, and I didn't have anyone hmm I'm like, I don't really know. I was like probably my grandma, 00:35:33.807 --> 00:35:38.047 But like there was no one that was like stood out, stood out. 00:35:38.488 --> 00:35:46.087 That was like, yeah, like they encapsulate the life of Christ. 00:35:46.087 --> 00:35:52.407 And I remember my roommate, one of the guys that I played soccer with, was like, my dad. 00:35:53.234 --> 00:36:06.647 Hmm, my dad. And I remember that very vividly. And I felt like something clicked in me at that 00:36:06.647 --> 00:36:14.623 moment where I was like, if my son doesn't say that about me, I failed. Hmm. Yeah. You know. 00:36:15.514 --> 00:36:30.327 If my daughters can't say about their husbands, if you don't love Jesus as much as my dad does, 00:36:30.327 --> 00:36:37.047 if you're not as gentle, if you're not as kind, if you're not as compassionate and merciful and 00:36:37.047 --> 00:36:41.927 forgiving and loving, if you're not as strong, if you're not as protecting, if you're not as just, 00:36:41.927 --> 00:36:56.007 then I got no time for you. And my son, I want him to be able to look at me and say, 00:36:56.007 --> 00:37:07.167 my dad truly walked with the Lord and had the character of Christ when I'm not in the room. 00:37:07.367 --> 00:37:10.906 You know, you'll say that when I'm not in the room and mean it. 00:37:11.807 --> 00:37:19.487 And then same thing with my wife, like my husband sacrificed himself for me and surrendered 00:37:19.487 --> 00:37:25.087 his own, the things that he wanted in life for me and loved me like Christ loved the 00:37:25.087 --> 00:37:32.367 church and gave himself up for her and treated me with gentleness and respect and leadership 00:37:32.447 --> 00:37:37.516 and compassion and strength and provision and all of those things. 00:37:39.271 --> 00:37:48.832 And then, so like I feel like for me, that is the, like that's the, 00:37:49.607 --> 00:37:53.405 if I failed at every other thing. 00:37:56.223 --> 00:38:02.812 Like if I got those things, if I got that right, I don't know how I could see it as anything but 00:38:03.113 --> 00:38:19.193 success. Because then the measure of who we are extends, we no longer then personally become the 00:38:19.193 --> 00:38:22.023 the cap of our influence. 00:38:22.353 --> 00:38:32.700 Because it gets pushed down a generational line where my kids don't have to fight against 00:38:33.113 --> 00:38:43.153 the brokenness of their home in order to disciple their kids to Jesus because it just flows out of them 00:38:43.153 --> 00:38:45.060 as a just a natural thing, 00:38:45.513 --> 00:38:49.833 because it flowed out of their dad and poured into them and poured into their kids. 00:38:49.833 --> 00:38:59.033 Well, how many people can we even sit here and think of who had all the other kind of measures of success 00:38:59.033 --> 00:39:07.433 we could think of, but then either posthumously or later in life, their family rats them out 00:39:07.433 --> 00:39:09.843 as like, yeah, you think my dad's great, 00:39:10.453 --> 00:39:13.516 but you didn't see how much of a terror he was at home. 00:39:14.885 --> 00:39:17.073 And then all of a sudden all of that success. 00:39:19.332 --> 00:39:23.553 Doesn't mean anything because the people who knew him best say that was a sham, 00:39:25.201 --> 00:39:31.755 Yeah Oh Professionally speaking I, 00:39:33.546 --> 00:39:55.673 Do have I mean I do have ambitions to be an excellent writer, to be a pastor of pastors. But similar to the personal, 00:39:55.899 --> 00:40:00.993 is like I was searching for language for this earlier today, and I was like, 00:40:00.993 --> 00:40:04.091 how would I describe that? 00:40:06.073 --> 00:40:14.413 And within the context or within the reality that we as pastors are not responsible 00:40:14.413 --> 00:40:16.856 for people's salvation. Yep. 00:40:17.433 --> 00:40:23.073 Right, that the Lord is the one that works the salvation unto others. Right. 00:40:23.993 --> 00:40:30.216 And it's the Lord that saves, it's not us that saves. Right, as much as we joke, we can't drag them into heaven. Exactly. 00:40:30.810 --> 00:40:33.799 Yeah. Right. But we have a role. Yeah. 00:40:34.816 --> 00:40:38.282 Obviously, we have a role. Right. You know? 00:40:38.433 --> 00:40:43.377 And I, um, I. 00:40:46.600 --> 00:40:57.970 Try and find the language for it. Success for me would be to have to be known in the salvation 00:40:57.970 --> 00:41:10.042 timeline of a stadium full of people. So people come and go out of your life as pastors, as 00:41:10.105 --> 00:41:19.570 friends or whatever. And there are people that maybe sat under my leadership or sat under my 00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:24.805 preaching as congregants of mine in past churches or even the church that I'm currently in who I'm 00:41:25.170 --> 00:41:37.570 no longer their pastor for whatever reason. But maybe they came to know Christ in the ministry 00:41:37.570 --> 00:41:46.537 that I was leading or responded to the Holy Spirit after I preached a particular sermon 00:41:46.681 --> 00:41:49.730 and the Lord moved on their heart and they responded in that moment. 00:41:50.111 --> 00:42:02.850 And or maybe it was a conversation that I had no idea was like impacted them or something that I 00:42:02.850 --> 00:42:09.210 said or something that I did, I had no idea that it impacted them at all. And I never will know 00:42:09.210 --> 00:42:20.930 this side of heaven. But that when I get to heaven, the Lord in his grace as a, I'm not shy 00:42:20.930 --> 00:42:32.330 to say this, like as a reward will say, that's the stadium full of people that have you somewhere in 00:42:32.330 --> 00:42:33.952 in their salvation timeline, 00:42:35.090 --> 00:42:38.867 the history of like how they came to be here. 00:42:40.172 --> 00:42:45.574 And to do that. 00:42:47.401 --> 00:42:53.411 You know, each pastor is a little bit different, right? And so to say, okay, well, 00:42:54.459 --> 00:43:00.691 you know, if that's the measure of success, then, you know, what are the tools you're going to use 00:43:00.691 --> 00:43:12.851 to plunder hell and populate heaven, right? And, you know, I would like to be a faithful. 00:43:13.913 --> 00:43:21.131 I would like to provide a faithful and authentic presence for people where they can experience life 00:43:21.131 --> 00:43:29.411 change. Like hold the space, hold an authentic space for them and be a presence for them. 00:43:29.411 --> 00:43:39.851 That makes that transformation possible. And in the midst of holding that space, 00:43:39.851 --> 00:43:50.571 I would like to take the Word of God and I'm able to proclaim it and articulate it in a way that 00:43:50.571 --> 00:44:00.971 draws people to faith in him. Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God. And I think 00:44:00.971 --> 00:44:09.771 that as I grew, as I continue to like grow in ministry and in the trying to be a little bit 00:44:09.771 --> 00:44:22.123 more self-aware and, um, understand my, like who I am and who I am not right. Like holding a place. 00:44:22.651 --> 00:44:31.451 Of like authentic presence and environment for people where they feel safe and heard and seen, 00:44:31.451 --> 00:44:40.491 an environment where they can easily respond to the proclamation of the gospel is I think 00:44:40.491 --> 00:44:50.131 one of the ways that God has primarily gifted me or just helped me to not screw it up every 00:44:50.131 --> 00:44:59.051 single time. Yeah. But I think also that there's part of that, that there, I get a sense that 00:44:59.051 --> 00:45:03.731 that there will be a season in my life where writing is. 00:45:09.934 --> 00:45:10.789 More, 00:45:13.175 --> 00:45:19.864 More central to my ministry than it is or Should be right now. Mm-hmm, 00:45:21.115 --> 00:45:29.144 Feel like my ministry right now Needs to be people centered It's is centered around Jesus, right, right? 00:45:29.664 --> 00:45:35.904 Yeah, yeah minute. It's centered around Being the ministry of Jesus to other people, right? 00:45:36.311 --> 00:45:43.424 Right. Right. Not, not providing information, encouragement, inspiration, exhortation, admonition, or whatever 00:45:43.424 --> 00:45:50.714 teaching through my fingers. Right. I think that will come. 00:45:51.318 --> 00:46:02.904 I also think that like, I'm sure you feel this, I know you do, is that writing feels 00:46:02.904 --> 00:46:12.424 like the scariest adventure through imposter syndrome that I ever would experience even 00:46:12.424 --> 00:46:19.544 more than preaching for some reason. And that seems weird to me. Why would I feel 00:46:19.544 --> 00:46:24.944 like more of an imposter writing than I do preaching sometimes? As a man who's trying 00:46:24.944 --> 00:46:39.284 to be more like Jesus, but a preacher of the word, a sinner. But yeah, the thought of writing fills me 00:46:39.284 --> 00:46:47.524 with such significant dread over who in the world would believe a word that I have? Who am I? 00:46:47.861 --> 00:46:55.884 Right? So that's part of the fear that keeps me from writing now. But I do think maybe that there 00:46:55.884 --> 00:47:02.404 will be a season in the future of my life in ministry. Maybe that season's next year, 00:47:02.404 --> 00:47:09.324 or maybe it's in retirement. I don't know. Where the Lord is like, okay. 00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:22.044 You actually have something to say now. You've got something to say. You've been through it, 00:47:22.044 --> 00:47:33.924 man. By God's grace, I'll finish well. By God's grace, I'll finish well. I don't want to wait 00:47:33.924 --> 00:47:46.804 retirement to write. I really do want to write right now. But I don't feel like it's where my 00:47:46.804 --> 00:47:53.676 energy and is needed most right now. 00:47:54.154 --> 00:47:55.764 Yeah, so... 00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:06.510 I'm eager to hear more, you know, that question, what does it mean? What is success? Yes. 00:48:06.510 --> 00:48:19.870 Is the first question in the first chapter that I'm guessing is going to be the foundation for a scaffolding of how are we leveling up to that place? 00:48:19.870 --> 00:48:20.251 Yeah. 00:48:20.458 --> 00:48:30.550 You know, now, um, and, uh, so hopeful to be able to maybe put some more meat on 00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:32.390 those bones as we move through it. 00:48:32.430 --> 00:48:35.110 But yeah, it's an important question. 00:48:35.564 --> 00:48:38.904 It's not unlike other questions that are similar to it. 00:48:39.363 --> 00:48:42.870 Sure. I mean, core values and what are you aiming at? 00:48:44.080 --> 00:48:49.350 What do you want people to say at your funeral? And what do you want to be about your mission and life and like all of those 00:48:49.350 --> 00:48:56.870 things. It's the same question. It's just couched in a little different language. 00:48:57.295 --> 00:49:02.910 So probably not dissimilar from questions that you've, you know, our listeners or viewers have 00:49:03.021 --> 00:49:08.550 thought about or been asked or that we've been thought about or been asked or whatever. 00:49:08.550 --> 00:49:16.550 Right, but it takes, like, the thing is, it's worth asking those questions again, because 00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:22.457 we are so, um, I am so easily distracted. 00:49:23.474 --> 00:49:29.350 Yeah. I will say yes to the thing that comes down the pipe without wondering, is this actually 00:49:29.350 --> 00:49:32.110 the thing that I'm supposed to say yes to? 00:49:32.512 --> 00:49:38.499 And so sometimes we need a moment of clarity to stop and say, all right, what am I, where, 00:49:39.057 --> 00:49:45.466 I'm my on course, I still going the direction I feel like I'm supposed to be going. So Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:49:48.941 --> 00:50:01.151 Yeah, hopefully our listeners, hopefully you've benefited from this conversation, able to like, maybe do some on your own reflection. 00:50:01.329 --> 00:50:10.031 Yeah. Yeah, we'd recommend I'd recommend at least so far from what I've listened to. Listen to not read. 00:50:11.271 --> 00:50:14.911 I've read, by the way, Ryan leaks book leveling up. 00:50:15.174 --> 00:50:20.611 We're gonna tag Ryan in this tag him in this video or in this podcast episode. 00:50:20.611 --> 00:50:32.711 However, we can do that and maybe we maybe we can convince Ryan if he's listened to it this far to come and be a guest on the podcast. 00:50:32.711 --> 00:50:34.311 That would be amazing. Virtually. 00:50:34.311 --> 00:50:37.911 Hey Ryan, we're just trying to we're trying to chase failure here. 00:50:38.148 --> 00:50:37.995 Yeah. 00:50:38.311 --> 00:50:46.311 Okay, so you tell us yes or no. So come be a guest on the podcast, we'd love to have you. 00:50:46.311 --> 00:50:51.588 As always, if you are listening or watching and you have questions that you feel like 00:50:51.939 --> 00:50:58.791 you'd like to hear us ramble on about for 51 minutes and 07 seconds, you can send those 00:50:58.791 --> 00:51:02.373 in to our texting line, 716-201-0507. 00:51:03.084 --> 00:51:13.059 You can also comment anywhere that you're watching this. Please rate the podcast wherever you're listening to it, 00:51:13.311 --> 00:51:16.777 like it, you know, press the thumbs up button, 00:51:17.071 --> 00:51:25.071 share it if you can, social media platforms, whatever, and then subscribe to wherever you're listening to. 00:51:25.071 --> 00:51:31.311 Yeah, if you give us, if you make a recommendation of a podcast to a friend and you choose to recommend us, 00:51:31.311 --> 00:51:33.980 like that would be a high honor to us if you did that. 00:51:34.311 --> 00:51:40.803 Yes, we'd love that. So I think we've been sitting at the like high 30s subscriber mark. 00:51:41.812 --> 00:51:40.803 Yep. 00:51:41.951 --> 00:51:46.931 The measure of success for us this week is to get past 40. There we go. Yeah. 00:51:47.871 --> 00:51:52.431 So, you know, have your moms and dads subscribe to us. Yep. 00:51:53.591 --> 00:51:59.645 All right, thanks for listening. We will talk to you next week. See you then. 00:52:00.240 --> 00:52:19.753 Music.