Interior Integration for Catholics

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We continue to practice deep listening and monitoring our internal reactions as we hear the story of the rape of Tamar, making a deep dive into the inner psychological and emotional lives of the characters, Princess Tamar, Crown Prince Amnon, Prince Absalom and King David, understanding their parts as well as our own psychological and emotional life, and our own parts.

Show Notes

  1. Intro: Welcome to the podcast Coronavirus Crisis: Carpe Diem!, where by God’s grace, you and I rise up and embrace the possibilities and opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth in this time of crisis, all grounded in a Catholic worldview.   We are going beyond mere resilience, to rising up to the challenges of this pandemic and becoming even healthier in the natural and the spiritual realms than we were before.  I’m clinical psychologist Peter Malinoski and I am here with you, to be your host and guide.  This podcast is part of Souls and Hearts, our online outreach at, which is all about shoring up our natural foundation for the Catholic spiritual life, all about overcoming psychological obstacles to being loved and to loving.  
    1. This is episode 44, released on November 30, 2020
    2. Thank you for being here with me.  
    3. and it is the eighth episode in our series on shame.  
    4. and it is titled: Rape, Incest, Shame, and Silence: A True Story Reexamined, Part 3
    5. We continuing to deal with very heavy, very difficult material.  
    6. We are continuing our deep exploration of the internal worlds of Crown Prince Amnon and Princess Tamar as recounted in 2 Samuel 13.   
    7. We opened that up in Episode 40, with Part 1 
    8. We continued  the story in Episode 43, last week with Part 2
    9. Now in Part 3, we are continuing to learn what we learned about shame in the conceptual information about shame from Episodes 37, 38, 39.
    10. We're going to focus on listening as we were learning about in Episodes 42 and that we continued practicing in episode 43 -- important to listen to episodes 40 and 43 before this one.  
  2. Cautions  (summarize below)
    1. There is an incestuous rape of a teenager in this story.
      1. I am not going into unnecessary graphic aspects about the rape itself
      1. there isn't a need to get into the all the specific details of it
      1. However, I am bringing out the emotional, relational and psychological impact of the traumas here, and not just the rape, but the betrayals and the failures to protect, and the injustice of it all and all the aftermath
        1. Those aspects -- betrayal, abandonment, the implications, the meaning of those contextual factors can be and often are worse than the actual physical violations.  And Tamar tells us that in the scripture.  

        1. Those realities can be very difficult to take, it's understandable why people want to avoid discussing them.  

        1. We need to be real about these things.  People who are traumatized, people who are burdened with shame, who are confused, who are lost -- they need resources.  These kinds of awful violations happen.  A lot.  We need to talk about them.  In this podcast I go into them.  

        1. There is no neat and tidy way to talk about incest and sexual violence and its aftermath, especially the experience of shame.  No whitewash, no clichés, no pious pablum.  

        1. And we need to be able to put these thing into a Catholic context, see them from a Catholic viewpoint. 

  3. Warnings --Summarize below.   let's be prudent here in listening to the story -- not an episode for little kids to necessarily be listening to.  
    1. As important as it is to deal with these topics
    2. Be thoughtful about where you are in your life journey, where you are in your healing -- this story may strike close to home for many of you
    3. You don't have to listen to the story or my analysis of it -- listen only if it is good for you -- even for people who are really psychologically well integrated, this is painful stuff.  
      1. Unresolved sexual trauma -- this may be a great time, it may be a terrible time listen to it.  
      2. Unresolved incest
      3. Unresolved betrayal
      4. Unresolved abandonment, especially by parents or church or civic leaders
      5. Sibling issues.  
    4. Window of tolerance
      1. the zone of nervous system arousal in which you are able to function most effectively. When you are within this zone, you can readily take in information, process that information, and integrate that information more readily. 

      1. You can listen.  

      1. People in the window of tolerance are feeling emotions at moderate levels, not overwhelmed with emotion (hyperarousal) and not numbing their feelings out (hypoarousal).
  4. Review of levels of listening -- check out episode 42.  Brief review.  Summarize below
    1. Listening to trauma may be easier with a written narrative than in person with the people immediately present
    1. Listening to --  Level 1 listening -- Listening with your mind, taking in information
      1. Often called active listening
      1. Listen carefully to what is happening in the story
      1. Grasping the content, the facts
      1. Requires attention, concentration, taking in what the person is saying.  

      1. Focus externally on the characters, not internally on what is going on with your parts.  Not distracted by own self-focus

    1. Listening for -- Level 2 listening -- Rarer.    
      1. This is speculative, we hold it lightly
      2. Listening to fill in the gaps in each character's big picture
      3. What is beyond and behind the words?
        1. Listening for the deeper layers of meaning in order to perceive what has not been said outright.
        1. understanding the experiential context for each of the characters
      6. Listening to what the character does not say or do -- omissions.  
      7. What are we listening for when we are listening for?  
        1. The person's experience -- to grasp the person's experience -- all the inner stuff.  
        2. Emotions
        3. Intentions
        4. Thoughts
        5. Desires
        6. Attitudes toward the world 
        7. Impulses 
        8. Vision of the world
        9. Working models of the world, assumptions.  
        10. Values
        11. Purpose in life
        12. I listen for identity
        13.  and for shame.  
      8. Engage the Faculty of imagination to help us fill in the gaps  
      9. Taking in what the person means (in contrast to what the person says in Level 1) 
      10. What we are not doing:  
        1. Not evaluating the merits of that perspective, not getting caught up in judging that perspective
        2. Not looking to right wrongs, not looking for justice, not asking deep existential questions about how could that terrible thing have happened to the person, not formulating advice, not looking to impress.  
        3. Setting all that aside.   To be with the characters in their stories, their narrative.  Understanding them first.  
        4. Taking that character's perspective in.  Seeing the world through the other person's eyes.  No matter how inaccurate or distorted that perception of the world may seem to be to us.  

    1. Listening with -- Level 3 listening -- Very rare -- characteristic of great therapists
      1. Listening with your whole self. 

      1. Listening with your heart and to your heart
        1. Window of tolerance.  

        1. Listening to your intuition -- listening to your own parts -- what they are telling you.  
          1. Emotions -- Fear, sadness, anger, disgust, happiness, etc.
          2. Impulses
          3. Intentions
          4. Thoughts that spontaneously arise
          5. Images
          6. Memories that pop up
          7. Body sensations
          8. Songs -- Internal Jukebox
          9. Sayings
          10. Gut sense
          11. All your inner experiences

        1. Remember, this is your stuff.  This is your experience.  

        1. Interpersonal field.  Which parts of me are resonating with your parts.
        1. Listening for the shifts in messaging along with the shifts in relating.   

        1. What does the person need
        1. Self as instrument -- tuning the instrument in to a frequency understand the other
        1. Curiosity -- why am I reacting this way.   

        1. Compassionate connection

  1. Read-through of Scripture 2 Samuel 13 1-22 -- last two episodes.  
  2. Breakdown of the Story
    1. And Amnon said, “Send out every one from me.” So every one went out from him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food into the chamber, that I may eat from your hand.” And Tamar took the cakes she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. 
      1. Amnon sends everyone out. Authority of the Crown prince
        1. Tremendous power imbalance.  The only one who could challenge the crown prince was David, the king. And David ordered Tamar to be there.  

        1. If the servants don't leave they lose their positions at best, and could be executed.  From a purely human perspective, the are in a catch-22 -- there is no good option.
        1. Nuremburg mentality -- Just obeying orders.
        1. If one witness had acted, if just one had sounded the alarm, or intervened, created a scene, how different this could have been.  But you would have to risk the enmity of the crown prince and with that death.  

        1. Theodore McCarrick report -- came out on November 10.  I couldn't read it.  
          1. How many people could have spoken up but didn't.  
          2. Some tried anonymously. 
          3. So much human respect.
          4. All seemed afraid of the power of McCarrick.  History repeating himself.  

      4. Bringing the food into the chamber -- bedroom.  The trap is closing.   Emphasis on "her brother."  
        1. Theme from Jaws running through my mind.  

    1. 11 But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her, and said to her, “Come, lie with me, my sister.” 12 She answered him, “No, my brother, do not force me; for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this wanton folly. 13 As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the wanton fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray you, speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you.” 14 But he would not listen to her; and being stronger than she, he forced her, and lay with her.
      1. He took hold of her.  Making sure of his prey.  
        1. She can't flee now.  Flight would be Tamar's first instinct.  And Amnon knew it.  
        2. Impossible to call for help because Amnon had sent the servants away.  No one to take her part.

      1. Come lie with me, my sister
        1. Invitation to consensual sex -- this sounds like it was very erotic for Amnon.  Part of his elaborated fantasy that would fill him up, make him whole.  
          1. She might give up her virginity for him, because she desires him, too.  
          2. Tamar may have the same sexual and romantic fantasy about him -- very arousing in a very disordered way.  
          3. May go on and on -- secret trysts

      1. Tamar keeps her cool.  
        1. Really amazing to me.  May have had special graces.  This is not a typical response.  It is far more adaptive that would be possible for most people in this situation.  
        2. Her sympathetic nervous system has got to be ramping up into a fight or flight response, but she is still in her window of tolerance. 
        3. She does not shut down
        4. She is thinking quicky and clearly, she can form arguments
        5. But I have to believe she is nearing the top end of her window of tolerance.   

      1. No my brother, do not force me.  
        1. Implication -- I will not do this.  I am not volunteering.  If sex happens it will be because you raped me.  First rejection.  
          1. Tamar could have consented, and afterward pretended that nothing happened.  Who would know? 
          2. The way the story is written made it so very clear that Tamar never considered violating her integrity and that she was a wholly blameless victim. 

      1. For such a thing is not done in Israel -- do not do this wanton folly.  Second rejection.  
        1. Major violation of social norms
        2. Major violation of Deuteronomic law
          1. Deuteronomy 27:22 forbids a man from sleeping with his sister.
          1. Leviticus 18: 9, 11
            1. The nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, born in the household or outside -- you shall not lay bare her nakedness.  

            1. The nakedness of the daughter of your father's wife, born in your father's household--she is your sister; you shall not lay bare her nakedness.  

          1. Leviticus 20:17
            1. And a man who takes his sister, his father's daughter or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is vileness and they shall be cut off before the eyes of their kinfolk.  His sister's nakedness he has laid bare.  He shall bear his punishment.  Robert Alter
            1. Punishment was to be cut off from Israelite community, outcast, exiled.  

          1. Consequences

      1. As for me, how could I carry my shame  Third rejection
        1. Tremendous blow to her identity. 
          1. Virgin princess --> nobody, a social outcast, a pariah.  
          2. Unmarried and unmarriageable.   No one wanted to marry a non-virgin unless she was a widow or possibly divorced.  

      2. And as for you, you would be as one of the wanton fools in Israel  Fourth Rejection.  
        1. Appeals to his identity.  It is true.  
        2. She senses that the four rejections are not working.  
          1. Appeals to what is good, true and beautiful are having no impact.
          2. Appeals to social and religious norms do not phase Amnon
          3. Appeals to how she would be shame do not matter to Amnon
          4. Even pointing out how he will shame himself no longer penetrate into Amnon's awareness.
        3. This is a quadruple rejection for Amnon -- a quadruple refusal.  Emphasized and reemphasized.  
          1. Destroys his fantasy of consensual sex and all that his imagination had elaborated about it.  
          2. Amnon's conscience is also burning now in the presence of Tamar's principled resistance
            1. The contrast is so strong between her virtue and his vice
            1. Amnon's part that carries shame is likely rising and about to take over
              1. Does he listen to that shame as a signal -- no, Amnon does not
              1. Can shame serve its inhibitory effect -- no -- Amnon will not allow it.  

            1. What happens instead?
              1. Amnon's parts that carry anger and hatred rise faster like firefighters to take out the pain of the shame.   

              1. to drown out his awareness of the shame 

              1. and to justify the impending rape as a consequence for Tamar wounding his pride.  

              1. Catholic psychiatrist Conrad Baars -- Emotional substitution -- one emotion rises up to squelch another.  

        4. So Tamar is taking this all in.  And she shifts her approach to one that hold out a possibility of legitimate sexual union.   
      3. Now therefore, I pray you, speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you.  
        1. King, not our father. Civil authority, arbiter of marriages.  
          1. Some believe she was trying to escape from his hands by any means in her power
          2. she did not necessarily mean that a dispensation for marriage was possible
          3. Unlikely such a request would have been granted.  
          4. Possible she was saying anything to play for time
        2. I think it's likely that Tamar believed a marriage was possible.  
          1. May not have been aware of the Levitical prohibitions in Leviticus 18 and 20. 
            1. She would be much more familiar with Deuteronomy.  
          2. She may have seriously believed that given the nature of the situation that David might agree to a dispensation.    
        3. Either way, she was desperate.  
      4. But he would not listen to her; and being stronger than she, he forced her, and lay with her.
        1. He would not listen to her -- would not see her as she was.  
          1. She made it as difficult as possible for him to do what he did
          2. But he did it anyway.  

        1. I don't know what to say.  

        1. This happened.  

        1. Listen to your parts now, notice what is going on inside you, how you are reacting.  

    2. 15 Then Amnon hated her with very great hatred; so that the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her. And Amnon said to her, “Arise, be gone.” 16 But she said to him, “No, my brother; for this wrong in sending me away is greater than the other which you did to me.”[b] But he would not listen to her. 17 He called the young man who served him and said, “Put this woman out of my presence, and bolt the door after her.” 
      1. Post-rejection.  Amnon shifts -- huge shift emotionally and in terms of his desires.  
        1. He must have her immediately -->  He must be rid of her, immediately
      2. My read:  Part of the intense attraction for Amnon was in how the sexual union was forbidden, but he was going to have it anyway.  She rejected him.  She is now going to pay the price.  He is just going to take what he wants.  He goes on a power trip, no longer relational in any sense, not even a distorted, warped sense like before.  
        1. Breaking sexual taboos.  I can do this.  The rules no longer apply to me.  I am above the law.  
        2. Amnon -- emphasizes the sibling relationship with Tamar -- as though that were important.  
        3. Act of rebellion -- of independence, of autonomy.  I make the rules for me and for others now.  Crown prince. Might have been growing up with this idea.  
        4. I don't need a relationship.  I can just take what I need by exploiting others.  
        5. Way of establishing power and dominance over David -- having sex not with his concubines or wives, but with his daughter.   
      3. Amnon hated her with a very great hatred
        1. Amnon's original warped fantasies of a secret ongoing mutual sexual relationship with Tamar are totally destroyed
          1. Amnon did not get what he hoped for -- so unrealistic
            1. Thinking with his hormones
            1.  vs. Proverbs 3:5  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and rely not on your own insights.  Yeah.  Especially when they are so driven by testosterone.  

          1. Sexual arousal is now gone. 

          1. He had wanted her, she never wanted him sexually.

        1. Hatred covering his shame.  
          1. Heaping coals down on his head.  
          2. Parts -- Hatred is a firefighter part that rises up to protect his system from being overwhelmed by the intensity of his shame and self-loathing.     
            1. I think Princess Tamar's words stayed with him. 
            2. Remember what she called his intentions to have sex with him?  Wanton folly.  
            3. Remember what Tamar said he would be if he carried out these evil designs?  Wanton fool of Israel 
            4. And Crown Prince Amnon burned in his shame of knowing those words to be true.  

      4. But she said to him, “No, my brother; for this wrong in sending me away is greater than the other which you did to me.”
        1. Even after the rape, Tamar is still functioning.  This is remarkable.  She is still fighting, still lucid, still able to engage in an effective way.
          1. Not typical, especially given the tremendous implications for Tamar

        1. She is still fighting for dignity.  She can feel his hatred.  She is still appealing to him.  

        1. Tamar is appealing for Amnon to marry her
          1. Scott S. Biblical Hermeneutics stack exchange 2016 discussion.  
            1. Tamar aware of Deuteronomic law, but not levitical law.  
            2. Marriage not possible due to Levitical law.  

          1. Deuteronomy 22:28-29  If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed and seizes her and lies with her and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.  

          1. Common law in Near Eastern cultures at the time.  

          1. Last-ditch attempt to salvage her life.
          1. She is desperately trying to salvage her future, making a futile gambit to avoid lifelong shame
          1. The shame of being unmarried and unmarriageable made marrying her rapist seem preferable to being a pariah.  
            1. She is trying also to salvage the situation morally as best as was possible for both of them. 
            2. sending away would be a direct violation of Dt 22:28-29 -- He has to marry her.  But he won't.  That's not part of his plan.  He wanted her as sexual object, not as a wife.   

        1. Externalization of his experience
          1. Fantasy that his shame and anger are caused by Tamar
          1. So he rejects her, banishes her.  But she won't go.  
            1. She points out another wrong he is doing, a greater wrong
            2. Explain that.  Position of hatred. 

      5. But he would not listen to her. 17 He called the young man who served him and said, “Send this creature, pray, away from me and bolt the door behind her.”   
        1. Dynamic equivalence strikes again in the RSVCE translation.  . 
          1. Not really "this woman" -- "this one" -- Hebrew is Z'ot. as though she is not human.  
          2. Robert Alter translates it as "this creature" emphasizing how dehumanizing her dismissal is.  
        2. He would not listen.  
          1. He would not engage, he would not see her
          2. She was an object to him.  
            1. The object of his sexual/relational desire at first
            2. Then an object of hatred, contempt, disgust.  
        3. Calls his servant to put her out.  Symbolic. Banishment.  Rejection.  Bolting the door
        4. Servant put her out -- rejection, shaming.  He basically has to throw Tamar out, like trash into the street.  
          1. Irony here -- Bolting the door behind her mad it seem like Tamar had made a shameful proposal to Amnon -- and she is the one treated like a prostitute
          2. Power aspect here for Amnon.  I am beyond the rules.  The rules and laws don't apply to me.  I am the favored crown prince.  
  1. Now she was wearing a long robe with sleeves; for thus were the virgin daughters of the king clad of old.[c] So his servant put her out, and bolted the door after her. 19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent the long robe which she wore; and she laid her hand on her head, and went away, crying aloud as she went.
    1. She is not going quietly.  She is grieving multiple losses.  
      1. She wants the world to know she is grieving.  She will not hide.  She will not make this easier for Amnon.  She stays with the vulnerability.  
      2. I will make you see me.  I will not be invisible.  
      3. Ashes on her head, ashes and tears on her robe, her ketoneth.  And probably, in a cruel twist of irony, also her blood, blood from the violation of her virginity.  Part of the shame.  No longer pure.  
      4. Laid her hand on her head -- symbol of God's hand heavy upon her.  
      5. Crying aloud

    1. Perhaps she hoped that her public protest and grief would force Amnon to marry her in observation of the Deuteronomic Law.   

    1. Perhaps Tamar hoped that her public mourning would force David's hand to take up and judge her claim against Amnon  and that Amnon would get what he deserved.  

  1. 20 And her brother Ab′salom said to her, “Has Amnon your brother been with you? Now hold your peace, my sister; he is your brother; do not take this to heart.” So Tamar dwelt, a desolate woman, in her brother Ab′salom’s house. 21 When King David heard of all these things, he was very angry. 22 But Ab′salom spoke to Amnon neither good nor bad; for Ab′salom hated Amnon, because he had forced his sister Tamar.
    1. Absalom:  Has Amnon your brother been with you?
      1. Not "our brother"  -- your brother.  My take Absalom knew what happened.  He has sensed it. 

      1. Maybe he saw the blood on Tamar's torn sleeve robe, her ketoneth.  

      1. Your brother -- emphasizes the incestuous nature of the rape.  

    1. Now hold your peace, my sister; he is your brother; do not take this to heart.
      1. Hard for me to imagine a less attuned statement in all of Scripture at this moment.  What was Absalom thinking?
      1. Do not take this to heart?  He wants her to stop crying and settle down. 

      1. He is your brother -- he is the crown prince -- that makes it so much worse!  And that is a reason for Tamar to hold her peace?
        1. Just keep it in the family?  Hush, Hush
          1. Secret family culture
          1. That didn't work.  The whole sordid story was eventually got written in the Bible, the most-read book in all of human history

    3. Absalom sees an opening here to take Amnon out.    
      1. Absalom is next in line for the crown after Amnon, and the wheels are turning 
      2. Absalom hated Amnon because he had forced his sister Tamar.
        1. Spoke neither good nor bad to Amnon.  Did not confront him then, when it would have helped Tamar
        1. Doesn't want resolution by marriage -- doesn't want this to resolve, because that would thwart his plan for taking the crown.  

        1. No, Absalom was playing the long game 
          1. for power and dominance
          2. With cold vengeance and murder in his heart
          3. Feeling justified -- he now has a very objective reason for murdering his brother
            1. Carrying out the death sentence required by Leviticus 20 -- but more out of revenge than justice.  

            1. Given their father, the king's inaction.  

    4. When King David heard of all these things he was very angry.  
      1. He was going to hear about it all.
      2. And he was very angry
        1. Doesn't say what he is angry about -- we don't know. 

        1. David protects his favored, eldest son.  
          1. David protected the abuser, the rapist, not his daughter the victim.
          2. No visible consequences for Amnon.  He goes on as usual.    
          3. Such indulgence -- no punishment -- and now either can't or won't stand up to Amnon.  It would have been heroic for David to start now, to bring the hammer down, but he didn't  And parts of Amnon know it.  Playing Dad.  One can almost feel the contempt. 
          4. Consequence of his pattern of failing to discipline his sons -- this wasn't new.  

    5. So Tamar dwelt, a desolate woman, in her brother Absalom's house.
      1. No longer able to dwell with the other virgin princesses
      1. A desolate woman
        1. Desolation -- complete emptiness.  Sense of being destroyed, so damaged inside.  Anguish.  Misery. Numbness.  Deadness inside.  Devastation, ruin.  

        1. Hypoarousal.  Downregulated.  Shutting down. 

        1. Three major, heartbreaking, colossal failures by the three closest men in her life
          1. Brother Amnon who raped her and abandoned her
          1. Absalom who shushed her and minimized everything
          1. David her father and her king, who was passive and did nothing.  
            1. Not just a question of him failing as a father
            2. He failed as king to bring justice to one of his subjects.  

        1. Tamar numbs out.  Loses will to live.  Losses are immense, after her adrenaline wears off.
          1. No one heard her
          1. Safe place was no longer safe.  

          1. Her voice was silenced -- by Absalom and her father, King David.  

          1. Mindblowing.  This was David.  King David, slayer of Goliath, victorious in battle, beloved by God.  

          1. Shame and humiliation

        1. She can never marry, she can never have children, she will carry the effects of the rape for the rest of her life.  She is an outcast.  

        1. David's silence means that others who want to help her are very limited.  The king has spoken through his silence.  So the king perpetuates the wrong.  

        1. And she lost other things.  Can she resort to the Psalms
          1. Can she sing Psalm 23 -- she would have heard it.    
            1. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
            2. Oh wait.  David wrote that.  

          1. Now some say that language of psalm 23 was in a late version of Hebrew that probably dated to The Second Temple period was basically the fifth century BC -- but many think it does go back to

        1. Tamar:  What did I do wrong?  Did I cause this?  How come no one protected me, listend to me?  Where is God?
          1. This is why I couldn't sleep that Thursday night
          1. God:  I lavished graces upon her. 

  2. That's the last we hear of Tamar.  Let's take a break.  Sit with this for a minute.  Notice.  Jot down a few things that you are experiencing.  
  1. Wrapup
    1. Practice this listening -- as far as you can go.  Share your experience of listening to this episode with another person.  You might invite someone to trust to listen to these episodes with you.  If that seems too much, read 2 Samuel 13 -- see what you can read between the lines.  Write it down in a journal, put your experience into words.  

    1. Where do you struggle with the listening
      1. Those points of struggle can help you identify where you need to work in your life
      1. Notice what got activated.  The parts of the story that stirred you up can help you understand what you need to connect within yourself. 
        1. The burdens that parts of you are bearing

    1. Can start by sharing these podcast -- spotify, apple podcasts, google play, amazon.  Share it on social media -- buttons are on our website at  -- get your word out there, with your personal recommendation -- how these episodes have helped you.  Share them, let others know 

    1. Get on the waiting list
    1. Friday, November 28, 4:00 - 5:15 PM EST, we had Office Hours for RCCD members.  Community members can check out the recording.  

    1. You can reach out to me at 317.567.9594 or at 

    1. Patronness and Patron.

What is Interior Integration for Catholics?

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