WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:39.185 --> 00:01:40.962 Duke: Alright, Corey, what are we talking about today? 00:01:41.232 --> 00:01:41.292 We're 00:01:41.572 --> 00:01:42.152 CJ: All right, dude. 00:01:42.152 --> 00:01:44.912 Today, we are going to navigate chaos. 00:01:45.972 --> 00:01:48.922 Duke: gonna put all kinds of Amber 40K jokes in here too. 00:01:51.202 --> 00:01:53.842 CJ: My man, we're going to the Ida storm and hopefully we're coming out. 00:01:54.022 --> 00:01:54.192 Duke: the Emperor! 00:01:54.592 --> 00:01:55.972 We will navigate chaos! 00:02:00.012 --> 00:02:05.777 Oh man, there's like five people who are laughing right now. 00:02:05.927 --> 00:02:06.457 CJ: are us. 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:08.921 Duke: right! 00:02:10.762 --> 00:02:14.312 An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. 00:02:14.312 --> 00:02:16.366 Alright. 00:02:18.987 --> 00:02:22.887 CJ: So do tell me, , why do we even need to navigate chaos? 00:02:22.897 --> 00:02:24.417 , why is this something that we need to talk about? 00:02:25.457 --> 00:02:28.827 , Duke: because the best of us will be called on to take 00:02:28.837 --> 00:02:30.257 care of those situations. 00:02:30.857 --> 00:02:32.637 We all want to be dragon slayers, right? 00:02:32.637 --> 00:02:34.817 We all want to move up in the world, we want to , take on 00:02:34.817 --> 00:02:35.997 bigger and bigger challenges. 00:02:36.647 --> 00:02:40.927 And at some point, , the size of the challenge is dictated 00:02:40.967 --> 00:02:44.167 by how unknown it is. 00:02:44.897 --> 00:02:45.297 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:45.842 --> 00:02:48.432 Duke: Like there's small unknowns, how do we do this one thing, ? That's 00:02:48.432 --> 00:02:52.522 a small unknown, but this big thing is, Hey, the catalog sucks. 00:02:52.632 --> 00:02:53.612 Everybody hates it. 00:02:53.842 --> 00:02:54.312 Fix it. 00:02:55.072 --> 00:02:56.772 CJ: Yeah, yeah, so, , what did I hate 00:02:57.552 --> 00:02:58.102 Duke: Well, I don't know. 00:02:58.102 --> 00:02:59.602 That's what I mean, but that's what we're here to do. 00:03:00.142 --> 00:03:01.662 CJ: I know, I know, 00:03:01.672 --> 00:03:02.532 Duke: to talk about, right? 00:03:02.542 --> 00:03:03.232 CJ: right 00:03:03.722 --> 00:03:06.752 , Duke: at some point you're going to get assigned something that isn't defined. 00:03:08.322 --> 00:03:08.882 CJ: Yeah, I mean, 00:03:09.122 --> 00:03:10.502 Duke: That's also big and not defined. 00:03:10.652 --> 00:03:20.716 Okay. 00:03:21.592 --> 00:03:25.212 CJ: Either, , directly or indirectly, and what I mean by that is that 00:03:25.212 --> 00:03:27.852 you've probably had a problem given to you that wasn't defined. 00:03:27.862 --> 00:03:32.148 And you probably had a problem that the, a signer thought was defined, but 00:03:32.148 --> 00:03:33.828 really wasn't once you broke it down. 00:03:34.208 --> 00:03:37.968 So, I think this is just a situation that a lot of people find themselves in. 00:03:38.063 --> 00:03:43.263 A lot more often than most people, , would think because it's really hard to 00:03:43.263 --> 00:03:45.793 contextualize to put a label on, right? 00:03:45.843 --> 00:03:52.280 I think calling it chaos is as good of a name as any, because it really is looking 00:03:52.490 --> 00:03:58.000 into the heart of the storm and trying to make sense out of it all without a map. 00:03:58.385 --> 00:04:01.358 Duke: Yeah, it's gonna happen to you, every service now instance 00:04:01.408 --> 00:04:06.348 out there has some chaotic element, something that is not under control, 00:04:06.348 --> 00:04:07.998 something that is not well known. 00:04:07.998 --> 00:04:08.018 Um, 00:04:08.413 --> 00:04:09.103 CJ: Absolutely. 00:04:09.298 --> 00:04:13.858 Duke: Like, I work with this one customer and it was like, why is everything so 00:04:14.608 --> 00:04:16.885 slow, not performance slow, but why? 00:04:16.885 --> 00:04:20.795 Like we have this huge backlog of work, we've got this team of people, but how 00:04:20.795 --> 00:04:24.712 come everything takes so long to execute still, and there could be any myriad of 00:04:24.712 --> 00:04:28.742 reasons, but you've got to solve these problems, but there's no playbook for it. 00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:29.860 CJ: yeah. 00:04:29.983 --> 00:04:32.683 And so the question is, where do you start with that situation? 00:04:32.693 --> 00:04:37.183 ? Because I think there's no playbook for it, but I think we all bring a 00:04:37.183 --> 00:04:41.343 certain, , style to that situation, ? Whether you think so or not. 00:04:41.393 --> 00:04:44.103 ? And the question is, do you intentionally bring that style or do 00:04:44.103 --> 00:04:47.603 you just, find yourself in the deep end and struggling to stay afloat? 00:04:47.603 --> 00:04:48.443 Haha. 00:04:49.158 --> 00:04:51.588 Duke: So anyways, that's what we're here to talk about. 00:04:51.788 --> 00:04:55.354 We did some thinking about some, things that might help and 00:04:55.364 --> 00:04:56.574 that's what we do here, right? 00:04:56.574 --> 00:04:58.509 As we try and help people boss up, 00:05:01.134 --> 00:05:01.724 CJ: I like it. 00:05:01.877 --> 00:05:02.307 All right, dude. 00:05:02.357 --> 00:05:03.027 Kick us off then. 00:05:03.027 --> 00:05:05.147 So what's the first thing you would say when, uh, what's the first. 00:05:05.162 --> 00:05:06.112 Duke: pull out that rummy quote, 00:05:07.047 --> 00:05:07.567 CJ: What's that? 00:05:07.715 --> 00:05:08.245 Duke: Donnie rums. 00:05:09.369 --> 00:05:09.649 CJ: all right. 00:05:09.649 --> 00:05:10.249 Yeah, I'll go with that. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:10.689 Yep. 00:05:10.785 --> 00:05:14.385 So one of the things, that I often think about when I'm entering 00:05:14.425 --> 00:05:16.845 a chaotic situation, right. 00:05:16.845 --> 00:05:21.532 Or even just the new situation really, . Is, Donald Rumsfeld, defense, , secretary 00:05:21.532 --> 00:05:23.552 for us, some years ago, probably. 00:05:23.727 --> 00:05:24.707 A lot of time before us. 00:05:24.707 --> 00:05:26.767 Some of you guys were born who are listening. 00:05:28.457 --> 00:05:31.957 But, he had this interesting quote, I abstracted some of it . But I think the 00:05:31.957 --> 00:05:33.637 whole quote is pretty interesting, right? 00:05:33.637 --> 00:05:36.007 And this, reports to say that something hasn't happened are 00:05:36.007 --> 00:05:39.847 always interesting to me because, as we know, there are no knowns. 00:05:40.222 --> 00:05:41.922 There are things we know we know, right? 00:05:42.122 --> 00:05:44.242 We also know that there are known unknowns. 00:05:44.292 --> 00:05:47.432 That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know, but 00:05:47.432 --> 00:05:49.362 there are also unknown unknowns. 00:05:49.502 --> 00:05:51.772 The ones we don't know, we don't know. 00:05:52.372 --> 00:05:55.162 And if one looks throughout history of our country and other free countries, 00:05:55.182 --> 00:05:58.922 it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones, so when I'm 00:05:58.932 --> 00:06:03.817 thinking about Service now and projects and dealing with processes and being 00:06:03.817 --> 00:06:06.237 parachuted in the situations, right? 00:06:06.417 --> 00:06:10.547 This quote is always one of the first things that goes through my mind, right? 00:06:10.737 --> 00:06:12.737 It's like, okay, so what do I know? 00:06:12.767 --> 00:06:14.407 . What am I known knowns, right? 00:06:14.427 --> 00:06:17.937 Hopefully I was able to glean some of that from the client before I accepted the gig. 00:06:17.987 --> 00:06:19.237 , so I got a list there. 00:06:19.237 --> 00:06:19.577 Okay. 00:06:19.577 --> 00:06:23.037 These are the things that I know are already jacked up 00:06:23.047 --> 00:06:25.607 or need improvement or you. 00:06:25.897 --> 00:06:26.637 Perfectly fine. 00:06:26.804 --> 00:06:30.414 And then there's my known unknowns, right? 00:06:30.414 --> 00:06:34.954 It's like, okay, so I know there's some kind of question around foundational data. 00:06:35.084 --> 00:06:37.344 You know, I've heard that there might be some weirdness there. 00:06:37.344 --> 00:06:41.804 They haven't updated ad in 20 years or what have you, or they're switched over 00:06:41.804 --> 00:06:46.264 to Azure and nobody knows how these things work anymore, et cetera, et cetera, right? 00:06:46.474 --> 00:06:48.704 So now you got your known unknowns, right? 00:06:48.704 --> 00:06:50.754 But then it's the unknown unknowns, right? 00:06:50.754 --> 00:06:50.914 Okay. 00:06:51.044 --> 00:06:54.064 And those are the things that you don't find out until you actually get into 00:06:54.064 --> 00:06:58.060 the mix, I spent a whole lot of time trying to qualify my clients right on 00:06:58.280 --> 00:07:02.720 those no knowns and those known unknowns, but it's not until I actually stepped 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.320 foot in the door metaphorically, right? 00:07:05.330 --> 00:07:09.320 That I actually start to figure out what are my unknown unknowns. 00:07:09.690 --> 00:07:15.950 And often I found that most of the significant unknown unknowns are people. 00:07:16.192 --> 00:07:18.242 Duke: Yeah, it really does. 00:07:18.242 --> 00:07:21.575 Just, it always rubbed me wrong way that, thing that people say 00:07:21.575 --> 00:07:23.295 that people process and tools. 00:07:23.590 --> 00:07:23.850 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:23.850 --> 00:07:24.850 People process product. 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:28.140 Yeah. 00:07:29.555 --> 00:07:33.125 Duke: because it's people that design the processes and are loyal 00:07:33.125 --> 00:07:35.245 to them once they give birth to them. 00:07:35.245 --> 00:07:35.565 Right. 00:07:36.355 --> 00:07:40.025 And then it's people that configure tools or it's people that want something 00:07:40.025 --> 00:07:41.555 out of the tools that isn't there. 00:07:41.555 --> 00:07:42.605 And so it's basically. 00:07:42.964 --> 00:07:43.694 CJ: it totally is. 00:07:43.910 --> 00:07:47.410 , when I was doing the service now, , photo shoot earlier this year, I was 00:07:47.410 --> 00:07:49.040 talking to one of the photographers. 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.560 That's what they do when they're trying to get you to smile and stuff. 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:51.780 Right. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:53.460 And he was asking me about what I do. 00:07:53.460 --> 00:07:57.930 And as I was telling me, say, you know, I think you're an organizational therapist. 00:07:58.260 --> 00:08:00.740 And I was , like, Hmm, maybe I am. 00:08:01.140 --> 00:08:01.530 Right. 00:08:01.550 --> 00:08:05.340 Because often what I do is I come in and I talk to the people who are 00:08:05.340 --> 00:08:07.890 involved in this service now program. 00:08:07.950 --> 00:08:10.720 . And I'm talking them through their problems. 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:10.790 Right. 00:08:11.025 --> 00:08:14.755 Trying to get them to a resolution, . Trying to get them to, , understand 00:08:14.955 --> 00:08:20.162 more about themselves and ultimately where they want to go, and them 00:08:20.172 --> 00:08:24.609 being both, themselves as people, the organization and also the tool, right. 00:08:24.619 --> 00:08:26.912 So yeah, organizational therapists. 00:08:27.212 --> 00:08:27.772 Definitely. 00:08:27.782 --> 00:08:28.772 I can kind of see that. 00:08:28.842 --> 00:08:33.375 , and part of that is trying to dig into a lot of these unknown unknowns, right? 00:08:33.585 --> 00:08:35.515 I think that's really, because that's really where. 00:08:36.055 --> 00:08:39.325 Where I think a lot of the value comes in, but also the, a lot of the 00:08:39.325 --> 00:08:42.585 potential for chaos and destruction. 00:08:42.995 --> 00:08:43.355 Right? 00:08:43.585 --> 00:08:45.685 Duke: but let's talk about how you get, cause you gotta, you 00:08:45.695 --> 00:08:47.215 gotta start contending with, 00:08:47.885 --> 00:08:48.825 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:49.175 --> 00:08:50.465 Duke: you gotta kind of flush them out. 00:08:51.619 --> 00:08:53.599 It's such a simple thing to do, but. 00:08:53.979 --> 00:08:58.579 Too few people do it, but take notes, get really good at note taking. 00:08:59.499 --> 00:09:00.159 CJ: Yeah. 00:09:00.319 --> 00:09:00.789 Yeah. 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:03.559 Duke: And, and review the notes. 00:09:04.069 --> 00:09:05.559 I like to pat myself on the back a little bit. 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:10.749 I think I did really good notes, but it didn't start getting super, super 00:09:10.749 --> 00:09:12.459 good until I started reviewing them. 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:17.032 So I'll like take the notes and like a day later, I'll reorganize them. 00:09:17.032 --> 00:09:18.132 I'll edit them down. 00:09:18.132 --> 00:09:19.252 I'll refine them. 00:09:19.592 --> 00:09:21.772 I'll break the notes into categories. 00:09:22.362 --> 00:09:24.812 And then I come to the next meeting and. 00:09:25.125 --> 00:09:31.135 the whole unknown knowns or the known unknowns start becoming more known. 00:09:31.375 --> 00:09:35.165 Like, it just gives you more, image in my head is when you're mountain climbing. 00:09:35.215 --> 00:09:36.435 ? And you just need purchase. 00:09:36.435 --> 00:09:39.755 You just need something a little bit extra to get the extra grip on. 00:09:39.755 --> 00:09:40.955 So you can propel yourself up. 00:09:41.209 --> 00:09:41.789 CJ: yeah, no, I, 00:09:42.089 --> 00:09:44.229 Duke: the notes for me , just does it. 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:48.509 And then as you're working the same project, don't open. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.199 Gosh, I've learned this the hard way so many times. 00:09:50.199 --> 00:09:50.319 Right. 00:09:50.564 --> 00:09:55.240 Don't open a new fresh page each time you meet, right? 00:09:55.415 --> 00:09:55.825 CJ: is that? 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:57.170 Duke: why is that? 00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:59.600 Because then it's like when you review them, now you're 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.330 scanning across multiple assets. 00:10:01.370 --> 00:10:05.170 And it's just logistically, mechanically harder to find 00:10:05.510 --> 00:10:07.080 , previously discovered information. 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:10.267 You just keep it in the same, document. 00:10:10.297 --> 00:10:15.647 And everything you want to write down as a note is part of your knowledge base. 00:10:16.224 --> 00:10:17.474 CJ: Oh, 00:10:17.524 --> 00:10:17.854 Duke: I mean? 00:10:17.864 --> 00:10:20.064 Your knowledge base for this project that's going on. 00:10:20.094 --> 00:10:25.068 Like, imagine you flush out a key requirement, But that was on Monday and 00:10:25.068 --> 00:10:26.898 you're meeting like three times a week. 00:10:27.128 --> 00:10:30.218 So you got Wednesday's doc and now you're on Friday's doc. 00:10:30.218 --> 00:10:33.478 You find another key requirement, which is written on Friday's doc. 00:10:33.678 --> 00:10:37.788 And then next week on Wednesday, when you finally meet again, , do you even remember 00:10:37.788 --> 00:10:41.488 what day's doc that thing was in that you're not talking about next Wednesday? 00:10:41.488 --> 00:10:41.548 Okay. 00:10:41.828 --> 00:10:45.258 And by the way, this is like a project that you work on two hours 00:10:45.328 --> 00:10:47.418 every second day for four weeks. 00:10:47.888 --> 00:10:51.464 So you got like, 34 other hours of the week you're doing stuff. 00:10:51.606 --> 00:10:55.556 So if you get into the habit of taking notes, just collapse 00:10:55.556 --> 00:10:57.586 it into one note asset. 00:10:57.796 --> 00:10:58.576 I don't care what you use. 00:10:58.576 --> 00:11:00.196 Like I use, yeah, 00:11:02.356 --> 00:11:06.726 like I use, I use word, but I've been dying to learn things like notion. 00:11:06.786 --> 00:11:09.446 . Just to take capitalize on like hyperlinks and stuff like this. 00:11:09.496 --> 00:11:09.956 And so, 00:11:11.286 --> 00:11:11.786 CJ: Yeah, man. 00:11:12.356 --> 00:11:15.916 You diving into like, you know, personal knowledge graph and things like that. 00:11:15.916 --> 00:11:19.606 That's a whole episode back and I can definitely nerd out on some of that 00:11:19.606 --> 00:11:21.766 notion and Rome and things like that. 00:11:22.266 --> 00:11:25.566 Duke: I will literally pay somebody to teach me Notion to a high level. 00:11:26.426 --> 00:11:27.706 I will literally pay somebody. 00:11:27.716 --> 00:11:30.616 If you know anybody, chat, please, please get in touch, please. 00:11:32.116 --> 00:11:34.976 Anyways, take notes and interview the notes. 00:11:35.866 --> 00:11:37.096 CJ: I think that's a good, , point. 00:11:37.271 --> 00:11:42.081 I think that based on the type of contract or the type of client or 00:11:42.086 --> 00:11:47.511 the type of project this, that I'm, , engaged in, notes are, it can be like. 00:11:47.801 --> 00:11:48.881 The lifeblood, right? 00:11:48.881 --> 00:11:52.641 They can be the thing that separates, , failure from success. 00:11:52.921 --> 00:11:56.181 When I'm doing a project where didn't, , entails a lot of, 00:11:56.231 --> 00:11:59.411 , executive, , stakeholder interviews and things of that nature, right? 00:11:59.411 --> 00:12:04.181 Then I got to put all of that together and to some kind of cohesive report to 00:12:04.181 --> 00:12:08.001 deliver to folks at the end of the day to say, okay, So I've talked to all the 00:12:08.001 --> 00:12:12.501 people in your broken process and they've all told me like why they think is broken, 00:12:12.501 --> 00:12:15.371 what they get out of it, what they want to get out of it, or why they don't 00:12:15.371 --> 00:12:16.851 think they should even be involved in it. 00:12:17.101 --> 00:12:21.101 . And these are the things that all jumped out based on everyone 00:12:21.101 --> 00:12:22.531 who was on who I interviewed. 00:12:22.611 --> 00:12:25.981 . And these are some of the things that I thought were super important, even though 00:12:25.981 --> 00:12:27.721 they were raised by only a few folks. 00:12:28.071 --> 00:12:31.351 And then these are a lot of the benefits that, you know, or these are the folks 00:12:31.351 --> 00:12:34.741 who actually feel like they shouldn't even be, I shouldn't be talking to them. 00:12:34.926 --> 00:12:38.436 . We had a good conversation, but they're like, why am I even doing this thing? 00:12:38.436 --> 00:12:40.886 I don't do the thing because I don't know why I'm doing the thing. 00:12:40.886 --> 00:12:41.976 I don't see what the value is. 00:12:41.976 --> 00:12:42.156 Right. 00:12:42.376 --> 00:12:45.546 And being able to put all that stuff together and deliver a report at the end 00:12:45.546 --> 00:12:49.376 of the day to the client and say, okay, now we know why your process is broken. 00:12:49.376 --> 00:12:51.736 And we know what some of your stakeholders want to get out of it. 00:12:51.736 --> 00:12:53.986 Let's see if we can align that with what you're looking to get out of 00:12:53.986 --> 00:12:55.706 the process and rebuild it better. 00:12:55.866 --> 00:13:00.276 Duke: man, this is such a good point to, formalizing what you've learned so far. 00:13:00.276 --> 00:13:02.716 Like, if you're going to take the notes and it sounds like what you're saying 00:13:02.716 --> 00:13:08.626 now is just , Make sure those notes have stuff about the people involved, 00:13:08.636 --> 00:13:14.319 their takes, and your consulting, opinions on those takes, right? 00:13:14.616 --> 00:13:20.034 But then frequently providing that to your stakeholder, not just talking 00:13:20.034 --> 00:13:21.854 about it, but providing them the asset, 00:13:22.189 --> 00:13:22.549 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:22.924 --> 00:13:26.518 Duke: is huge because I'll tell you, if somebody's coming to you and 00:13:26.518 --> 00:13:31.120 saying, Here's a completely undefined thing, a very vaguely defined thing, 00:13:31.180 --> 00:13:33.000 with a ton of unknown unknowns in it. 00:13:33.717 --> 00:13:36.717 if they're giving it to you, then they've got heat on them as well. 00:13:37.557 --> 00:13:40.837 And if they could solve it, they'd already be done, gone, doing that. 00:13:40.837 --> 00:13:41.167 Right. 00:13:41.422 --> 00:13:41.792 CJ: Yep, 00:13:42.317 --> 00:13:46.647 Duke: And so you help them craft a narrative for the people who are breathing 00:13:46.647 --> 00:13:49.312 down their necks , by providing that to 00:13:49.897 --> 00:13:53.463 CJ: well, that's exactly it Duke, I've got a client right now where 00:13:53.463 --> 00:13:55.323 I'm doing , this exact thing, right? 00:13:55.323 --> 00:14:00.533 Where they've engaged me to help them, talk to their people, right? 00:14:00.553 --> 00:14:04.553 To figure out like how this thing that they're doing can be better 00:14:04.823 --> 00:14:06.203 because right now it's not working. 00:14:06.503 --> 00:14:09.503 , and I'm arming them for those conversations. 00:14:09.917 --> 00:14:14.297 But I'm also at the same time acting on their behalf with those folks 00:14:14.337 --> 00:14:17.437 and being a neutral arbiter, right? 00:14:17.457 --> 00:14:21.837 , I got one foot on each side of the line, . Because I'm acting as their agent, but I'm 00:14:21.837 --> 00:14:23.997 also acting as a neutral arbiter, right? 00:14:23.997 --> 00:14:27.107 Like somebody who doesn't work for the company, but also has 00:14:27.137 --> 00:14:31.107 all of this extensive service now and process experience, . To then 00:14:31.227 --> 00:14:35.167 be able to coax out of, those stakeholders, some of that data that. 00:14:35.482 --> 00:14:38.042 Is really sometimes hard to share internally. 00:14:38.222 --> 00:14:41.592 And then I package all it up, give it to my client, and now they're 00:14:41.612 --> 00:14:45.092 armed for these conversations to actually make the process better. 00:14:45.445 --> 00:14:49.575 Duke: the subset of that, and also something to put into the master note. 00:14:49.895 --> 00:14:52.310 I have a feeling it's going to rapidly turn into like a note taking thing. 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:58.480 So for me, like, be sure that you're writing down the whole cast of characters 00:14:59.195 --> 00:14:59.505 CJ: Oh, that's 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:00.370 Duke: on my notes. 00:15:00.370 --> 00:15:02.030 It's literally what it says cast. 00:15:02.465 --> 00:15:02.935 CJ: Nice. 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.950 Duke: and when there's 10 people in the meeting, , literally get their names 00:15:07.013 --> 00:15:08.403 and how they're involved in the thing. 00:15:08.802 --> 00:15:09.252 CJ: Nice. 00:15:09.677 --> 00:15:12.567 Duke: It just helps you build a better solution is, I mean, it's a small 00:15:12.567 --> 00:15:14.017 thing again, but it's a big thing. 00:15:14.017 --> 00:15:14.152 Right. 00:15:14.732 --> 00:15:19.372 You have to understand who's, at play at this, who makes the decisions, 00:15:19.422 --> 00:15:23.692 , who has to be made happy, which might not be the decision maker. 00:15:24.542 --> 00:15:26.462 CJ: Yes, no, no, absolutely. 00:15:26.482 --> 00:15:27.192 Oh man, don't. 00:15:27.272 --> 00:15:29.302 So we're going to talk about hidden power, right? 00:15:29.302 --> 00:15:32.272 Because, that's also a thing. 00:15:32.282 --> 00:15:33.952 That's one of those unknown unknowns, right? 00:15:33.952 --> 00:15:35.022 That's why I said earlier. 00:15:35.262 --> 00:15:38.632 That, , sometimes these things are about, , the unknown unknowns for 00:15:38.642 --> 00:15:40.682 me, almost always people, right? 00:15:40.682 --> 00:15:44.022 Because you don't know who, exercise is quite influence until you get 00:15:44.022 --> 00:15:48.822 involved in an integrated into the dynamic of the organization. 00:15:49.202 --> 00:15:49.482 Right? 00:15:49.492 --> 00:15:53.842 And then you actually figure out, whose power is moving 00:15:54.112 --> 00:15:56.222 not only the platform, right? 00:15:56.232 --> 00:15:57.252 And the teams. 00:15:57.562 --> 00:16:00.062 But also the company, right? 00:16:00.392 --> 00:16:04.912 And then, but and once you figure that out, then you can figure 00:16:04.912 --> 00:16:10.992 out how you can build service now to align with the goals, right? 00:16:10.992 --> 00:16:15.412 That are may not always be obvious to even the people who are working there. 00:16:15.859 --> 00:16:19.009 But when you find that sweet spot and when you hit that alignment. 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:22.359 Boom, that's value, right? 00:16:22.359 --> 00:16:25.395 And so, again, one of those unknown unknowns, right? 00:16:25.395 --> 00:16:28.565 That quiet power that's being exerted by folks that isn't going 00:16:28.565 --> 00:16:30.895 to always be obvious, but you've got to be on the lookout for it. 00:16:31.425 --> 00:16:32.495 Duke: got an example of this. 00:16:32.935 --> 00:16:33.315 CJ: Yeah, 00:16:33.665 --> 00:16:35.825 Duke: I had this customer certain employees have to track time. 00:16:37.025 --> 00:16:41.745 And certain employees have to, , approve time and it's weird, like employees can 00:16:41.745 --> 00:16:43.075 shift between different departments. 00:16:43.205 --> 00:16:48.785 So sometimes you have to change the scope of your approval context. 00:16:48.785 --> 00:16:49.105 Right? 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:54.645 And there was a couple teams that are moving to their own kind of 00:16:54.675 --> 00:16:56.455 cordoned off area of service now. 00:16:56.545 --> 00:17:00.525 , but those teams basically receive a lot of the requests to change 00:17:00.525 --> 00:17:02.395 the context of time approval. 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:03.570 CJ: right. 00:17:03.865 --> 00:17:06.575 Duke: And they're like, well, we're going to our own area. 00:17:06.575 --> 00:17:08.595 So this stuff won't be landing in this area. 00:17:08.627 --> 00:17:09.537 where it used to land. 00:17:09.547 --> 00:17:11.577 So , you have to get with that team and build them a catalog. 00:17:11.917 --> 00:17:12.237 CJ: Okay. 00:17:12.504 --> 00:17:15.324 Duke: I have the teams that usually receive this stuff and they would 00:17:15.324 --> 00:17:17.664 just literally, crumple up the piece of paper and toss it over 00:17:17.664 --> 00:17:18.614 the wall at the other folks. 00:17:18.614 --> 00:17:25.134 Oh, I got problems on top of problems. 00:17:25.194 --> 00:17:25.374 Okay. 00:17:27.084 --> 00:17:28.454 CJ: just no longer my problem. 00:17:28.454 --> 00:17:29.064 Here you go. 00:17:29.124 --> 00:17:29.684 Your problem. 00:17:29.694 --> 00:17:30.594 Now you deal with that, 00:17:31.185 --> 00:17:33.639 Duke: okay, so we got these two teams. 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:35.419 So we have to cover them off, right? 00:17:35.419 --> 00:17:38.309 Because they have to have a way of telling the people that would come to them. 00:17:38.329 --> 00:17:39.379 No, this is the right input path. 00:17:40.379 --> 00:17:43.409 Okay, so I've got training and knowledge documentation that I'm 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:44.509 for sure got to write to them. 00:17:44.919 --> 00:17:47.959 Now it's like, okay, get to this team that actually does the work, 00:17:48.189 --> 00:17:49.849 Two meetings in come to find out. 00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:53.739 Yeah, they do some of the work, but only after some other team has done the work. 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.770 We're two weeks into this and now I got a whole other team. 00:17:57.720 --> 00:17:58.130 CJ: right? 00:17:58.290 --> 00:18:02.725 Duke: So, slap my hand because in this case I was very Narrowly focused, 00:18:03.025 --> 00:18:05.095 You tell me what your process is. 00:18:05.095 --> 00:18:07.915 And of course, they told me what their process is. 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:09.490 CJ: right. 00:18:09.525 --> 00:18:12.295 Duke: But by accident, we sussed out that there's another 00:18:12.295 --> 00:18:13.585 team involved in this as well. 00:18:13.824 --> 00:18:15.154 CJ: and they failed to mention that. 00:18:15.627 --> 00:18:19.311 Duke: Yeah, but it's kind of like, yes, you could say that, but you 00:18:19.311 --> 00:18:22.511 could also, but you could also say, Robert, is there a better question 00:18:22.521 --> 00:18:23.531 you could have asked, right? 00:18:24.785 --> 00:18:27.085 extreme accountability here. 00:18:27.185 --> 00:18:27.475 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:27.475 --> 00:18:28.925 No, no, it's absolutely fair. 00:18:28.925 --> 00:18:33.215 I always say that communication is the responsibility of the 00:18:33.215 --> 00:18:34.585 communicator, not the audience. 00:18:34.935 --> 00:18:37.655 , and so in this situation, I, I would totally agree with you, right? 00:18:37.655 --> 00:18:39.115 , is there a better question you could have asked? 00:18:39.115 --> 00:18:40.625 Is there a different person you could have talked to? 00:18:41.065 --> 00:18:41.925 Duke: Oh, and here's the thing. 00:18:42.065 --> 00:18:45.865 Cause they're not like, they're not ServiceNow people, right? 00:18:45.865 --> 00:18:47.635 They process tickets in ServiceNow. 00:18:47.965 --> 00:18:52.331 And here's another unknown, unknown, how good has your previous service 00:18:52.331 --> 00:18:54.095 now system been set up because. 00:18:54.278 --> 00:18:58.288 These gentlemen were so focused on the idea that, , you give me 00:18:58.288 --> 00:19:01.348 a ticket, and I take that ticket, do something with it, and then 00:19:01.358 --> 00:19:03.608 give that ticket to somebody else. 00:19:04.183 --> 00:19:08.343 it never dawned in their mind, because they're not ServiceNow experts, 00:19:08.493 --> 00:19:12.383 that flows can send whatever tasks to whomever they want, in whatever 00:19:12.383 --> 00:19:15.763 sequence they want, and it can still be part of some overarching process. 00:19:16.053 --> 00:19:19.523 Rhythm or whatever, like all kinds of people can get tasks 00:19:20.096 --> 00:19:20.536 CJ: I mean, 00:19:20.556 --> 00:19:21.296 Duke: chunk of work. 00:19:21.496 --> 00:19:23.736 CJ: yeah, yeah. 00:19:23.876 --> 00:19:27.566 Duke: just like, well, when the task gets to us, the one task that's 00:19:27.566 --> 00:19:31.596 like pinballing around it, when we get it, this is our process. 00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:36.350 I guess you have to understand the pieces on the chessboard. 00:19:36.350 --> 00:19:39.240 The sooner you can find that out, like who all is involved. 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:42.410 Like I should have just said, when somebody is asking for a change 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.870 in this Time tracking application. 00:19:45.600 --> 00:19:47.630 Who all must be involved in that? 00:19:47.843 --> 00:19:50.063 Not, what is the flow for your team? 00:19:50.975 --> 00:19:52.345 CJ: Yes, yes, yes, yes. 00:19:52.795 --> 00:19:55.865 , help me discover the unknown unknowns, right? 00:19:55.865 --> 00:19:58.755 Because just because they're unknown to me doesn't mean that 00:19:58.775 --> 00:20:00.065 they're unknown to everyone. 00:20:00.295 --> 00:20:03.925 And so you start with, , and I look at this as , there's some, 00:20:03.925 --> 00:20:05.205 uh, heart materials, right? 00:20:05.205 --> 00:20:08.665 That if you, if you hit it with a hammer, right, you get cracks that 00:20:08.665 --> 00:20:10.875 kind of spider out from the center. 00:20:10.875 --> 00:20:10.945 Right? 00:20:11.247 --> 00:20:14.397 I look at this as sort of the same thing, , you have your client or 00:20:14.397 --> 00:20:17.027 your person that you're engaged with directly on this process. 00:20:17.277 --> 00:20:20.487 ? And they're talking to you about all the stuff that they think that 00:20:20.487 --> 00:20:22.957 you should know, but not the stuff that you think that you should know. 00:20:23.317 --> 00:20:26.047 ? And so what you want to do is use that person as the center. 00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:32.009 of this nexus and help and have them spiral out from the center to all 00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:36.089 of the people who are involved in this process that they know, right? 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:39.459 And then you're going to do the same thing with every other person in the 00:20:39.459 --> 00:20:40.859 network that they light up for you. 00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:45.319 . And, ultimately, as you talk to more and more folks, more and more 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.859 nodes in the network, I know I started talking about cracks, but 00:20:47.859 --> 00:20:49.089 now we're on networks and nodes. 00:20:49.459 --> 00:20:51.579 But as you light up more nodes in the network, right? 00:20:51.579 --> 00:20:54.822 And you interrogate those eventually you get a complete picture. 00:20:55.077 --> 00:21:00.267 Right of everyone who's involved in this process based on talking to every 00:21:00.267 --> 00:21:06.017 note, listening to every note, taking notes about all of those conversations 00:21:06.237 --> 00:21:11.187 and building upon all of that knowledge again and again and again. 00:21:11.335 --> 00:21:11.895 And 00:21:12.362 --> 00:21:17.572 Duke: Dude, can you, can you imagine how much more successful CMDB implementations 00:21:17.602 --> 00:21:21.492 we'd heard about if they looked at it from a people perspective like that? 00:21:21.982 --> 00:21:24.862 Not, but not just turn on discovery and see what happens, 00:21:25.357 --> 00:21:25.777 CJ: right. 00:21:26.122 --> 00:21:29.252 Duke: but more like, okay, let's just start with servers. 00:21:29.386 --> 00:21:30.706 who cares about servers? 00:21:31.221 --> 00:21:31.711 CJ: Right. 00:21:31.949 --> 00:21:34.979 Duke: Well, I mean, the server team cares about servers, but why do they care 00:21:34.979 --> 00:21:36.745 about But who else cares about server? 00:21:36.745 --> 00:21:38.835 Are servers like assets? 00:21:38.845 --> 00:21:40.305 Does asset management care about servers? 00:21:40.305 --> 00:21:43.140 Does it, does Are the servers ever audited? 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:45.930 Does an auditing team care about servers in a different 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:47.030 way that the server team does? 00:21:47.424 --> 00:21:50.154 CJ: and who do they know who cares about service? 00:21:50.154 --> 00:21:50.494 Right. 00:21:50.694 --> 00:21:51.244 Because they, 00:21:51.409 --> 00:21:52.539 Duke: you start with the who, 00:21:52.784 --> 00:21:53.184 CJ: yep. 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.789 , Duke: and figure out who all is involved in this. 00:21:56.982 --> 00:21:58.402 CJ: Yes, absolutely. 00:21:58.807 --> 00:22:01.317 Duke: So the pieces on the chessboard, the cast of characters, 00:22:01.802 --> 00:22:02.212 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:02.382 --> 00:22:02.752 Yeah. 00:22:02.797 --> 00:22:05.587 Duke: to bring order to chaos is understanding the players. 00:22:05.747 --> 00:22:05.817 This 00:22:06.242 --> 00:22:06.642 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:06.702 --> 00:22:08.422 , that's probably the first place that I'd look. 00:22:08.692 --> 00:22:11.822 , the longer I do this Duke, , and by this, I mean, it in 00:22:11.822 --> 00:22:13.322 general, but also service now. 00:22:13.647 --> 00:22:19.837 The more I realized that there is a huge black hole around people, and it is the 00:22:20.097 --> 00:22:22.567 single most important part of our jobs. 00:22:23.267 --> 00:22:27.391 And, I can't speak for generations that have come after me, but I know, 00:22:27.434 --> 00:22:32.114 as I was coming up in IT, a lot of the attraction was being able to 00:22:32.114 --> 00:22:36.604 tinker and automate and do things with technology that didn't involve, 00:22:36.639 --> 00:22:38.529 Me talking to other people, right? 00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:41.589 That was kind of, the thing that, attracted me to the industry. 00:22:41.739 --> 00:22:47.299 But again, the longer I'm here, the more I realized that really it's all 00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:51.149 about the people and it's really all about, talking to folks and getting to 00:22:51.149 --> 00:22:55.659 understand it so that you can do the tinkering thing that we all got here for. 00:22:56.594 --> 00:22:59.634 Duke: is kind of like why I was blessed by not being super hyper 00:22:59.634 --> 00:23:01.284 technical in my start in IT. 00:23:01.284 --> 00:23:06.344 Because like, I had to ask questions just to understand enough. 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:08.189 CJ: Oh yeah. 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:09.169 That's a good 00:23:09.184 --> 00:23:09.474 Duke: know what I mean? 00:23:09.564 --> 00:23:11.534 To add, to add enough value. 00:23:12.374 --> 00:23:13.064 Cause I was dumb. 00:23:13.064 --> 00:23:13.764 I didn't know it. 00:23:14.149 --> 00:23:14.619 CJ: Yeah, 00:23:15.224 --> 00:23:17.524 Duke: And so just be like, explain that to me one more time. 00:23:17.534 --> 00:23:18.121 Explain that to me. 00:23:18.121 --> 00:23:23.244 I just got good at asking for the explanations and then writing it down. 00:23:23.644 --> 00:23:25.234 so I can research stuff later. 00:23:25.234 --> 00:23:25.634 Or so that. 00:23:26.129 --> 00:23:28.269 Or I could, bring it to somebody who did know 00:23:28.446 --> 00:23:31.886 CJ: yeah, you know, I had a boss duke, , non technical, right? 00:23:31.936 --> 00:23:35.576 , and he would always say, explain like I'm five, right? 00:23:35.706 --> 00:23:37.456 And this is pre Reddit, right? 00:23:37.456 --> 00:23:40.212 Or at least pre that sub, we get to the point where we started 00:23:40.212 --> 00:23:42.012 like getting to the point where we're talking tech over his head. 00:23:42.542 --> 00:23:43.752 And he just, he stopped us. 00:23:43.752 --> 00:23:44.262 He slowed us down. 00:23:44.262 --> 00:23:46.442 He's like, all right, look, talk to me. 00:23:46.442 --> 00:23:47.662 Like I'm three, say that again. 00:23:47.722 --> 00:23:48.042 Like I'm 00:23:48.262 --> 00:23:48.522 Duke: hmm. 00:23:51.422 --> 00:23:53.492 CJ: So, cause I got to take what y'all telling me and I got to go 00:23:53.492 --> 00:23:56.649 advocate in the boardroom for this, And I got to be able to talk to these 00:23:56.649 --> 00:23:57.769 people and they don't know either. 00:23:58.269 --> 00:23:59.509 . And they expect me to know. 00:23:59.579 --> 00:24:02.049 So you got to explain to me how I can explain to them. 00:24:02.219 --> 00:24:07.599 and I think during those conversations, it allowed us to understand what we 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.169 were trying to accomplish more too. 00:24:09.724 --> 00:24:14.074 So I do think there's a lot of a nugget of truth to your point there, Duke, about, 00:24:14.074 --> 00:24:17.384 you starting off and not being technical and having to ask all of those questions 00:24:17.384 --> 00:24:22.644 probably led you to where you are now in terms of being able to hop in into the in 00:24:22.644 --> 00:24:24.224 and out of these kind of projects, right? 00:24:24.224 --> 00:24:27.304 And work with a client and get that value that you get for them, right? 00:24:27.304 --> 00:24:29.534 Because you pop in and you know the questions to ask because you've 00:24:29.534 --> 00:24:30.584 been asking them all your life. 00:24:33.099 --> 00:24:33.289 Duke: Okay. 00:24:33.289 --> 00:24:34.159 I got a different one. 00:24:34.409 --> 00:24:36.019 You always know generally where you are. 00:24:37.076 --> 00:24:39.656 they'll say, oh, catalog sucks or SPM sucks or. 00:24:40.056 --> 00:24:42.816 You know, something sucks, but you like, you can gauge where 00:24:42.816 --> 00:24:44.436 you are by that one big thing. 00:24:44.436 --> 00:24:48.976 So it pays to know and understand and be able to explain what 00:24:48.976 --> 00:24:50.586 an ideal state looks like. 00:24:50.586 --> 00:24:51.016 And 00:24:51.752 --> 00:24:53.812 CJ: Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:24:53.967 --> 00:24:56.217 Duke: beyond just, Hey, I'm this process sort of, 00:24:57.292 --> 00:24:57.712 CJ: hmm. 00:24:58.127 --> 00:25:00.557 Duke: comes from experience in contention. 00:25:00.577 --> 00:25:06.282 Like, but how do I convince you that this is the best idea, but also how do I, 00:25:06.342 --> 00:25:08.052 keep relearning this with catalog, right? 00:25:08.222 --> 00:25:11.392 So, in my latest, Hey, Robert, catalog sucks. 00:25:11.472 --> 00:25:12.112 , help us out. 00:25:12.225 --> 00:25:13.015 Hear the chaos. 00:25:13.339 --> 00:25:15.985 So, I built this, catalog item owner guide. 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:17.100 CJ: Okay. 00:25:17.565 --> 00:25:20.325 Duke: And I don't just come to these, I don't come to the table 00:25:20.325 --> 00:25:21.599 and just say, where does it hurt? 00:25:21.665 --> 00:25:23.105 because frankly, they don't care. 00:25:23.155 --> 00:25:25.935 If they could snap their fingers and make the whole conversation go away 00:25:25.995 --> 00:25:29.775 and a catalog item, they do that, they're not interested in service now, 00:25:31.045 --> 00:25:31.395 CJ: Right. 00:25:31.605 --> 00:25:32.005 Yes! 00:25:32.245 --> 00:25:32.735 Yes! 00:25:33.295 --> 00:25:33.785 Yes! 00:25:34.485 --> 00:25:37.319 Duke: I make this, owner's manual for catalog items. 00:25:37.379 --> 00:25:40.399 And the first thing it does is they're like, why do these things matter? 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:42.959 did you know that? 00:25:43.724 --> 00:25:45.714 This can orchestrate the efforts of multiple teams. 00:25:46.204 --> 00:25:49.014 Did you know that it can control approvals for auditing? 00:25:49.414 --> 00:25:53.494 Did you know that with some extra time, we can actually get systems to talk to 00:25:53.494 --> 00:25:56.624 each other in a flow so that you don't actually have to do the manual work? 00:25:56.910 --> 00:26:00.140 And so it's kind of what's in it for you, And what's in it for the 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.514 organization so that they have a context of why we're sitting there. 00:26:03.514 --> 00:26:04.644 Like, why am I taking your time? 00:26:06.154 --> 00:26:08.744 CJ: but it also gives them a context on how to talk to you. 00:26:08.961 --> 00:26:10.871 You think about that, right? 00:26:10.871 --> 00:26:11.321 Like you've, 00:26:11.386 --> 00:26:12.006 Duke: me more about that. 00:26:12.221 --> 00:26:12.571 CJ: yeah. 00:26:12.571 --> 00:26:12.841 All right. 00:26:12.851 --> 00:26:17.361 So by you giving them , this manual, all right, on how to catalog works, 00:26:17.741 --> 00:26:21.711 it allows them to think about, , it allows them to internalize, right? 00:26:21.731 --> 00:26:25.198 How the catalog works alongside, you their work processes. 00:26:25.713 --> 00:26:31.133 And now, they can have a conversation with you about things that they need in 00:26:31.133 --> 00:26:35.153 the context of a shared vocabulary, right? 00:26:35.213 --> 00:26:36.803 Around catalog, right? 00:26:36.813 --> 00:26:37.223 Duke: Yeah. 00:26:38.143 --> 00:26:38.593 CJ: you know what I mean? 00:26:38.833 --> 00:26:39.383 Duke: especially, right. 00:26:39.433 --> 00:26:43.123 Isn't it awful when somebody sends you an email and you've got to extract, like. 00:26:43.578 --> 00:26:46.448 Maybe it's a three step process, but it's all just like information 00:26:46.488 --> 00:26:47.668 in the text of an email. 00:26:48.183 --> 00:26:49.003 CJ: Yeah. 00:26:49.208 --> 00:26:51.408 Duke: Well, that's what you're getting in a generic service request, 00:26:51.803 --> 00:26:52.203 CJ: Yes. 00:26:52.538 --> 00:26:56.088 Duke: So wouldn't it be nice if for everything that we knew how to 00:26:56.088 --> 00:26:59.985 do, here's the precise questions we need to know and nothing else. 00:27:00.168 --> 00:27:03.118 we asked them to answer just the stuff we need. 00:27:03.973 --> 00:27:06.683 And then the flow automatically starts. 00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.570 Anyways, like 00:27:08.870 --> 00:27:09.390 CJ: no, dude. 00:27:09.870 --> 00:27:14.370 Duke: catalog is the, is, is like the most like recent thing for me on this, but 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:17.340 like this exists for freaking everything. 00:27:18.550 --> 00:27:18.870 CJ: Dude. 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:19.340 It is. 00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:21.846 Duke: Asset, SPM, take your pick. 00:27:22.036 --> 00:27:24.126 But I think what I'm trying to get out here, sorry, I 00:27:24.126 --> 00:27:25.270 know you're trying to get in 00:27:25.526 --> 00:27:26.186 CJ: No, you're good, man. 00:27:26.556 --> 00:27:31.026 Duke: what I'm trying to articulate here is it takes more than getting certified 00:27:31.076 --> 00:27:37.563 and air quotes, knowing it, it takes a mindset of understanding what those 00:27:37.573 --> 00:27:39.713 prime value drivers are for any 1 thing. 00:27:40.098 --> 00:27:43.278 And being able to talk in a convincing manner about it. 00:27:43.598 --> 00:27:48.928 I would say this even includes maybe having some slide where 00:27:49.448 --> 00:27:51.038 that you can quickly like pop up. 00:27:51.038 --> 00:27:54.578 Like now I've got this, this catalog user guide thing. 00:27:54.608 --> 00:27:56.228 I'm like, I'll never be without that. 00:27:56.318 --> 00:28:00.798 I wish I had built it 15 years ago when I did my first catalog, like, 00:28:02.178 --> 00:28:04.635 CJ: Yeah, yeah, it definitely, it definitely helps. 00:28:04.635 --> 00:28:09.135 , being able to go in and, have an anchor point where you can start a 00:28:09.135 --> 00:28:15.631 conversation and you know, I think that the anchor point can't really be. 00:28:15.961 --> 00:28:21.051 Because not everyone knows tech , and a lot of people are intimidated by it. 00:28:21.101 --> 00:28:25.201 And a lot of people who are intimidated by it, want to ignore it. 00:28:25.801 --> 00:28:28.171 , and often those people are decision makers, right? 00:28:28.171 --> 00:28:30.951 So you got to figure out how to talk to them in a language that they understand 00:28:31.211 --> 00:28:34.721 in order to get things done that they are, they're actually hiring you to do. 00:28:35.051 --> 00:28:36.591 And that difficult sometimes. 00:28:36.591 --> 00:28:36.911 Right. 00:28:37.011 --> 00:28:38.621 , Duke: Oh, especially in service now too. 00:28:38.661 --> 00:28:40.741 Cause I don't think we fully appreciate. 00:28:41.018 --> 00:28:43.025 How not cool 00:28:45.635 --> 00:28:49.215 like having to use ServiceNow is when you're not a ServiceNow 00:28:49.215 --> 00:28:51.225 admin developer or whatever, 00:28:51.485 --> 00:28:52.245 CJ: yeah. 00:28:52.405 --> 00:28:56.285 Duke: and you just kind of like think about every single time you didn't. 00:28:56.360 --> 00:28:59.660 put a story in, or a project, or an incident, or a catalog item 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:00.610 for the thing you're about to do. 00:29:00.620 --> 00:29:03.600 You just went ahead and did it, put it up, they said, and just like, because 00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:08.300 you'd rather be doing the thing you need to do than doing the bureaucracy 00:29:08.300 --> 00:29:09.250 around the thing you need to do. 00:29:10.105 --> 00:29:10.725 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:11.126 --> 00:29:14.890 Duke: And we don't fully appreciate how especially in implementations that 00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:16.280 have just been seen in their pants. 00:29:16.748 --> 00:29:17.198 You know what I mean? 00:29:17.208 --> 00:29:23.268 Maybe low training, low quality, it's a burden for people to put these, you 00:29:23.268 --> 00:29:26.208 might be walking into a team that's , maybe the only thing they get is the 00:29:26.208 --> 00:29:30.038 results of generic service requests and they get hundreds of them in a week. 00:29:31.068 --> 00:29:31.728 You know what I mean? 00:29:31.768 --> 00:29:35.228 And then asking those people about, let's break down the process and stuff. 00:29:35.228 --> 00:29:37.518 And they're just like, whatever, dude, get me like two category 00:29:37.538 --> 00:29:38.468 fields and I'll be great. 00:29:38.468 --> 00:29:38.588 Transcribed 00:29:39.985 --> 00:29:43.761 CJ: yeah, just give me something I can group things on and triage a 00:29:43.761 --> 00:29:45.321 little better than what I got now. 00:29:45.901 --> 00:29:46.451 Duke: that's right. 00:29:46.791 --> 00:29:48.611 So you gotta, give them a carrot. 00:29:48.641 --> 00:29:49.061 You know what I mean? 00:29:49.061 --> 00:29:51.025 You gotta lure them with bigger value. 00:29:51.515 --> 00:29:52.555 Got like five minutes left. 00:29:52.555 --> 00:29:54.405 I got one more if that's okay. 00:29:54.600 --> 00:29:55.200 CJ: go for it man. 00:29:55.455 --> 00:29:56.625 Duke: We actually have a whole bunch more. 00:29:56.635 --> 00:29:57.515 It's probably like a second episode. 00:29:58.130 --> 00:29:58.700 CJ: Yeah, I know. 00:29:59.080 --> 00:30:00.040 I know this. 00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:02.230 This kind of became a lot more about like, it's weird. 00:30:02.230 --> 00:30:02.770 Like it. 00:30:02.800 --> 00:30:03.340 No, keep going. 00:30:03.340 --> 00:30:03.730 I love it. 00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:04.075 I love it. 00:30:04.090 --> 00:30:04.420 Keep going. 00:30:04.645 --> 00:30:07.785 Duke: The next one is be the best PM you possibly can. 00:30:08.270 --> 00:30:08.810 CJ: Yes. 00:30:08.885 --> 00:30:10.125 Duke: You know, I mean, not your job. 00:30:10.125 --> 00:30:10.575 I get it. 00:30:10.775 --> 00:30:11.295 I get it. 00:30:11.725 --> 00:30:15.358 But, if we want to be dragon slayers and part of being a dragon slayer is 00:30:15.358 --> 00:30:19.938 slaying big dragons and the biggest dragons are all like of unknown size, 00:30:20.438 --> 00:30:24.668 then you got to learn how to be a PM to the best of your ability, because the 00:30:24.668 --> 00:30:27.798 sooner you can start talking to your stakeholders about how long it's going to 00:30:27.798 --> 00:30:31.028 take and who you need to slay the dragon. 00:30:31.145 --> 00:30:33.471 the better it is for you, They're just like, I need a plan. 00:30:33.471 --> 00:30:34.051 I need a plan. 00:30:34.061 --> 00:30:38.411 Now, ideally they want to have a perfect project breakdown structure, all that 00:30:38.411 --> 00:30:42.121 stuff, ideally, but you can give them the next best thing, which is like, listen, 00:30:42.121 --> 00:30:45.792 I know we have these amounts of work to do, So as soon as you know, you have a 00:30:45.792 --> 00:30:50.262 task, you need to get done, write down the task on your document in service. 00:30:50.262 --> 00:30:50.962 Now don't care. 00:30:51.902 --> 00:30:52.232 Right. 00:30:52.362 --> 00:30:54.252 And as you discover dependencies. 00:30:54.307 --> 00:30:58.807 Write those dependencies down and as you're able to put rough orders of 00:30:58.807 --> 00:31:03.557 magnitudes around each of those tasks and it gradually creates a bigger 00:31:03.557 --> 00:31:09.447 picture and the more iterations you get of it, the better the picture gets. 00:31:10.137 --> 00:31:11.910 CJ: Yeah, that's entirely true. 00:31:11.977 --> 00:31:16.964 And I think there is a, push, , due to immediacy in our culture, right? 00:31:16.964 --> 00:31:21.704 That you have to have , the answer right now based on whatever limited amount of, 00:31:21.884 --> 00:31:23.424 information and scope you've been given, 00:31:24.004 --> 00:31:24.364 Duke: And. 00:31:24.512 --> 00:31:27.962 And there's this idea too of the requests are in, you should just 00:31:27.962 --> 00:31:29.202 figure out that there's five. 00:31:29.552 --> 00:31:29.882 Okay. 00:31:29.982 --> 00:31:31.342 I'll take a real world example here. 00:31:31.342 --> 00:31:33.802 We've got like 15 requests to ulcer notifications. 00:31:35.499 --> 00:31:38.045 And they're like, just, figure out how long each of them is going 00:31:38.045 --> 00:31:39.105 to take and do them in order. 00:31:39.355 --> 00:31:42.755 But what they're missing is Just because some rando said, I think 00:31:42.755 --> 00:31:45.505 notification should work this way doesn't mean you do that. 00:31:45.695 --> 00:31:47.295 Is that person the process owner? 00:31:47.572 --> 00:31:51.392 Are they even a high frequency participant in the process? 00:31:51.392 --> 00:31:54.332 Or are they just voicing their opinions into the task module? 00:31:54.332 --> 00:31:55.232 You understand what I mean? 00:31:56.272 --> 00:31:56.722 So it's 00:31:56.917 --> 00:31:59.037 CJ: Shouting into the void, causing the chaos. 00:31:59.037 --> 00:32:00.227 Yeah. 00:32:00.227 --> 00:32:01.417 Yeah. 00:32:01.467 --> 00:32:04.237 Duke: at least they got it into the task, but, we know we have to 00:32:04.237 --> 00:32:06.857 adjust these notifications, but you know what else we have to do? 00:32:06.857 --> 00:32:08.757 We have to form like this place. 00:32:08.797 --> 00:32:10.277 I'm saying it just because this place doesn't have it. 00:32:10.427 --> 00:32:14.047 We have to form like a council of people, like the process owner 00:32:14.047 --> 00:32:18.687 and a few of the key, key, key, users, power users of that process. 00:32:19.087 --> 00:32:23.057 So that we say, we're thinking of modifying the notifications in this way. 00:32:23.357 --> 00:32:24.577 So that's a task too. 00:32:24.617 --> 00:32:25.707 And it's got to be the 1st task. 00:32:27.117 --> 00:32:28.257 Establish the council. 00:32:28.267 --> 00:32:31.047 Okay, then the next thing in that project for me was. 00:32:31.167 --> 00:32:35.700 write down an SOP for notifications, these are our rules of engagement for 00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:37.930 doing notifications that had to come 2nd. 00:32:38.310 --> 00:32:43.110 Okay, now let's take that pile of 15, some of which we can be dismissed immediately. 00:32:43.465 --> 00:32:48.759 And others just get wrapped up into the project, but have to act like a PM and 00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:51.659 collect to dues and write them down. 00:32:52.290 --> 00:32:55.470 CJ: those things become action items , that need to be taken care of. 00:32:55.470 --> 00:33:01.730 And look, you know, I, I, I have figured out based on my, public service, , that 00:33:02.010 --> 00:33:05.400 corporations do meetings way wrong, right? 00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:09.300 And that's the best way to do a meeting is, , by using Robert's rules, right? 00:33:09.715 --> 00:33:12.135 And, and Duke, I didn't, I didn't know you had rules, but 00:33:12.135 --> 00:33:13.195 you know, I'm glad I found them. 00:33:15.115 --> 00:33:15.915 Duke: you're welcome. 00:33:19.205 --> 00:33:22.275 CJ: And, and so let me tell you , the items here that I think 00:33:22.275 --> 00:33:23.635 are the most important, right? 00:33:24.085 --> 00:33:28.239 So one is the agenda, in government in Illinois, an agenda has to 00:33:28.249 --> 00:33:30.919 be published, I believe it's 48 hours before a public meeting. 00:33:31.564 --> 00:33:37.044 . And that agenda contains all the items that you are allowed to talk about. 00:33:37.467 --> 00:33:41.117 notice, I didn't say all the items that we might talk about, you 00:33:41.117 --> 00:33:43.057 know, or all the items, right? 00:33:44.027 --> 00:33:44.457 Yes. 00:33:44.737 --> 00:33:48.477 This list of items are the things that we must talk about. 00:33:48.517 --> 00:33:50.277 And only this list. 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.490 and it must be provided 48 hours in advance. 00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:55.730 So everybody's got a chance to look at it before you get here. 00:33:57.700 --> 00:33:58.020 Right. 00:33:58.030 --> 00:34:00.060 So that's, I'm telling you do. 00:34:02.370 --> 00:34:04.910 And then, after every meeting, there are minutes. 00:34:05.610 --> 00:34:10.330 Published those minutes, record the actions that were taken and any 00:34:10.330 --> 00:34:12.250 pending actions that need to be taken. 00:34:12.584 --> 00:34:16.204 They record who needs to take those pending actions, or they record who 00:34:16.204 --> 00:34:17.664 took the actions in the meeting. 00:34:18.044 --> 00:34:23.214 So now you not only have this constrained list of items that you can only talk about 00:34:23.224 --> 00:34:29.944 in the meeting, you also have this list of to do's and to done's or to do's and have 00:34:29.944 --> 00:34:32.017 done's, That came out of that meeting. 00:34:32.157 --> 00:34:35.897 So now you are one step ahead of how do you schedule the next one? 00:34:35.897 --> 00:34:38.037 And what do you talk about in the next one? 00:34:38.722 --> 00:34:41.432 Now, there's a whole lot of other stuff that happens, , during the meeting that 00:34:41.432 --> 00:34:46.062 Robert's rules governs to, but for me, in terms of applying, public meeting 00:34:46.072 --> 00:34:50.402 methodology to corporate meetings, those two things , are ultimately, I 00:34:50.442 --> 00:34:54.012 think, would improve, , meetings like a whole lot at a corporate level. 00:34:55.747 --> 00:34:56.037 Duke: Okay. 00:34:56.037 --> 00:34:58.757 That was a lot of different points. 00:34:59.070 --> 00:35:00.890 , I hope you guys found some wisdom in there. 00:35:01.057 --> 00:35:03.277 let us know if you want us to dive deeper on this kind of stuff. 00:35:03.277 --> 00:35:06.347 Maybe have a second episode, just let us know in wherever you see this posted. 00:35:06.542 --> 00:35:07.342 CJ: Absolutely. 00:35:07.422 --> 00:35:09.452 And, uh, yeah, it's always, it's been a pleasure. 00:35:10.322 --> 00:35:11.052 I'll let you later. 00:35:11.207 --> 00:35:11.347 Duke: one. 00:35:11.652 --> 00:35:12.602 CJ: They don't know outro.