Hi, everyone.
Welcome to The Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast.
My name is Silvan and I'm joined with Declan.
So we are going to be breaking down episode two of Heated Rivalry.
So for those of you stuck around for the first episode, thank you so much for downloading and listening and watching.
We really appreciate it.
Episode two gets into a lot.
So I'm looking forward to this conversation with Declan and how we break this down.
Yeah, a lot goes on here.
You get a lot more development for Shane and Ilya's relationship.
And I think you're starting to get more of the emotion begin to bleed in maybe into this one.
Where it was before they had the sort of excuse of, know, this is just us sleeping around, we're just having little trysts, it's nothing serious, to real proper intimacy.
And yeah, very
Highly emotionally charged moments, let's say.
And I really like the way they open this episode out where you've got both of them jogging.
One's in Montreal, one's in Moscow.
So there's a mirroring sort of going on there.
And I like the way they've integrated the text messages on screen because whilst it doesn't pull focus, I think it adds to the sort of the narrative.
I remember you talking in the last episode about, you know, in the book, there's a lot of thoughts and a lot of narrative that you can't always put across on screen.
And so I think they're doing a really good job at doing that.
Yeah, it's a really clever way of working around that sort of inner monologue.
And I think the way in which Shane's thoughts in particular are sort of communicated through the text messages, the way he will type something out, what he actually feels and
what he actually puts out there.
So infamously at the end of the episode, you have the we didn't even kiss and he doesn't send it.
Obviously in the book you would get that thought in his head, my god we didn't even kiss, that was so impersonal, that was so awful.
And in this you sort of see that visualisation of him not voicing what he's truly feeling.
I find that's such a good way of communicating it.
It also communicates about his personality as well, that he is feeling all these things very deeply but he's not communicating it.
And he's very torn in his thoughts, everything isn't quite flowing as well as he's used to.
Because by this point we've established Shane likes
structure, likes to know what he's doing, he likes to have things done his way.
Upon rewatching it, have you noticed how he folds his clothes when they're about to have sex?
I love it.
If someone came into my room and started folding clothes, like, that would be the biggest turn on for me.
I'm not going to lie.
Just the way the pants, the shirt has to be carefully folded on top and then laid down very gently.
And it's so funny.
And Ilya laughs at it as well because it's so indicative of his personality.
there's little moments of endearment there as well.
And obviously that leads to this attraction growing between the two of them.
Yeah, and I think that the texting and deleting the text or not sending the text is so real for a lot of us.
I mean, how many of us have written out a whole paragraph or a whole monologue and then just gone delete?
Yeah, 100%.
It's that leaving things unspoken, unsaid, not quite having the courage to say what you think and what you feel and mean, which seems to be a chronic issue for these two.
They absolutely avoid expressing their emotions in any way, which is direct.
They will happily dance around each other to the point where they're upsetting one another and getting really frustrated.
I feel a lot of that frustration from Shane in this episode in particular where he's not quite getting back from Ilya what he's kind of looking for and Ilya is getting the same as
well.
Shane is giving him, he's avoiding him a lot of the time, especially whenever they have that initial agreement to meet up to have sex and then it goes wrong, the playing gets
cancelled and then there is this these months and months and months of Shane just sort of teasing Ilya a little bit.
and Ilya just trying to be like oh I know you want it, I know you want it, keep on trying, just sort of wearing them down over and over time and yeah it's such a good way of
communicating their dynamic and what it's like and how kind of exhausting it would be actually to be in that situation and how unsure of yourself you would be.
I absolutely agree.
like that you picked that up because realistically, I mean, in a situationship or on a hookup kind of situation, the communication isn't all that clear.
You're not really professing, you know, your deep feelings because you don't want to scare someone away.
You don't want to come across as intense or too much, for example.
And I think that that's rooted in the genuineness and in the authenticity of this.
They're not good communicators because they don't really know each other that well.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And people tend to forget that in the series, within these first few episodes, they're in their early 20s.
So they are and neither of them are frequent daters.
Ilya sleeps around, but he does not date people.
Shane doesn't date people because he's gay and he doesn't want to date women, even though, you know, if he ever wanted to date, he could only date women because that would be the
only thing would be acceptable.
So neither of these guys have any
real dating experience and even less so with a homosexual relationship to begin with.
So there is so much in that as well.
There's a realism to that.
They're behaving exactly how two completely unsure overly horny 20 year olds would behave who have absolutely no romantic experience whatsoever.
Yeah, and I don't know what timeframe, I think it's like early 2010, 2011 that we're at at this point, I think.
I mean, if you look at the landscape, the social landscape then, there's no real role modeling for them to base how should I behave on previously.
Like even if we think about what was going on in 2010 in real life, like there's no real role models.
There's no real blueprint about how we should behave.
Like how many of us were in our early 20s
you know, potentially for some of us, I don't want to group all of us together, potentially, you know, like going on Grindr, hooking up, not really communicating, you
know, being really messy with it all.
Like there's a lot of people that will identify with that.
yeah, 100%.
I think whenever you're in the sort of like hookup culture and it does happen a lot more when you were younger and it would have for me as well.
And you're a lot more careless with people's feelings.
So you are a lot more careless.
To the point now you're like, I do think back the interactions I had with people and thought I could have like been nicer about that or I could have put that a different way
or I didn't quite approach that right.
So I got in over my head in that situation and it's really a learning curve, but it's something that
As you get older, I think you have an inclination you want to come out of as you're sort of learning more and you're getting those experiences and it's happening to you as well.
You're having these awful moments where someone's not really being great to you and they're not communicating correctly and you're getting all these hangups.
But I think as you mature and then you learn from those and you sort of learn that you don't want to inflict it on people.
It's supposed to take you into a different phase of your sort of dating, your dating life, your dating relationships where you want something a bit more serious.
You want something
that matters a bit more but I think they're still sort of stuck in that sort of like I like this guy and I have no idea how to effectively communicate how much I like him and it
also scares the shit out of me because I'm not supposed to like him and this could ruin my career and ruin my life.
One of the things that you talked about was, you know, Shane folding the clothes and being very meticulous.
You know, he follows a macro biotic diet.
I don't even know what that is, but it sounds very regimented.
I keep having flashbacks of Madonna from the 90s talking of Gwyneth Paltrow talking about macro biotic diets.
But uh and one of the theories that I've picked up on from like fan edits and reading TikTok comments and things like that is is Shane potentially being autistic.
Now,
I can see where some of those arguments are coming from, but I'm interested in how it comes across in the book.
In the book, there is sort of like an element of that.
Shane is obviously popular because he's non-confrontational for most people.
But yeah, there's always like an unsure about the situations he's in, the sort of conversations he's having, quite easily distracted whenever he's speaking to people.
But in terms of like anything in terms of like mental health directly related to him, actually there is this sort of theme.
free out the book about Shane's diet.
And it's quite commonly brought up to the point where you won't know this from the show yet.
But you'll notice little elements of it, like his mom orders him salmon and brown rice.
And it's always a ginger ale.
He very rarely drinks.
When he drinks, it's like him letting down his hair.
There's almost like moments of growth whenever he has an alcohol, you'll have a big story point then.
And there is a sort of maybe OCD sort of element to his character, where you do get the folding of the clothes, the way in which he has his Mother sort of schedule out his entire
life.
like lots of
know, cutaways comparing Ilja's life to Shane's and Shane is always doing something.
There's always something he has to be doing.
He is suddenly a landlord as well as a massive hockey player.
He has all these advertisements going, all these sponsorships and everything is very, very strict and very organized about Shane's life.
And he seems to like really crave after that sort of stability financially, things like that.
there are lots of elements of his personality that could give off neurodivergent sort of tendencies.
So it wouldn't surprise me if someone did put two and two together and suggested that he did or was on the autism spectrum.
Yeah, it's not an outrageous idea, so it's not.
Yeah, and I think as you watch the episodes later on, other things will come up and other sort of tendencies will come up.
But I really like the OCD that you talk about because there is I can see elements of of sort of rituals, but without the catastrophizing of it.
So unless that's an inner sort of monologue that comes across in the book, but that's definitely not coming across on the TV show necessarily.
Yeah, which is good because that's it's funny.
I'm thinking from the having read the second book, I know that this is going to be a problem because his mental state is going to become more uncertain.
So it is.
And when it becomes uncertain, these tendencies that he has all sudden become more extreme.
So they do.
So I'm going to leave that there.
for nobody else that knows anything else about the book or the second book.
yeah, this is not the last time we'll be seeing these sort of personality sort of traits or sort of neurodivergent traits that you see in Shane.
Yeah, and I like that you talked about sort of, know, Shane having sort of been Mr.
Businessman, Mr.
Landlord, to put it in Ilya's words,
And I'm also thinking about the family structure around him.
So I know we talked a little bit about that in the previous episode whereby Shane has a very solid sort family foundation around him.
His mum is pretty much like the Kris Jenner of the Kardashians, let's be honest.
um
I think in the show the mom seems to be his agent.
She seems to handle all his sort of business transactions, things like that there.
So I think that's a good way of having her more involved in the show because that's not the case in the book.
Interesting.
I mean, I quite like that dynamic because it's that momager kind of dynamic.
you're right, it puts them in a lot of more, it puts them together in a lot more scenes than you have with the dad, for example.
The dad kind of comes across as a bit, he doesn't really have a clue.
Like he doesn't even know what YouTube is.
he just sort of shows up and is told to go where he's supposed to go.
And that seems to be the sort of idea of their relationship.
it is to get the dad actually comes across more neurodivergent than he does.
But I kind of like that aspect of it.
I like the dynamic between him and the mom.
think it's quite cute.
And there is a sweetness to their relationship that they also have with Shane.
Obviously, the fact that Shane is now an adult and he's all these things, you know, they're still very much present in his life and they're very involved in that way.
and that creates such a huge contrast between Shane and Ilya's family, which couldn't be more opposite.
Yeah, and here in this episode, we really get that confirmation of Ilya's father having a dementia or some sort of dementia here.
It's very apparent in that conversation where they're getting ready for the gala and he's sort of fixing his tie and he's talking about your mum and he's like, my mum's dead.
And I like that they also give us a bit more backstory because they didn't in the first episode about where is Ilya's mum?
Like what happened?
You know something's happened, but we don't know where she is.
And so there you're right, there is this complete contrast between sort of family structures, but also family dynamics.
You can see, Ilya doesn't have that support system.
mean, in my head, I'm thinking if Shane's mom is doing all these sort of brand deals for him, who's doing that for Ilya?
Because you don't see it come across.
Yeah, you'll notice that Ilya has no support system.
And I said this in the last episode, but it makes it very, very clear in this one.
He basically has Svetlana.
Is that the right way to say it?
Svetlana.
She is the only one in Ilya's life, which is actually like on his side in any way, where sort of Shane's family is there to support him, lift him up.
and to sort of give him as many opportunities as possible and to provide for him and be there for him and to help him manage his life.
Elia's is the complete opposite.
They are leeches.
are constantly, especially his brother, Alexei, he is a drain on him.
He's a leech.
He is constantly trying to steal off him.
He wants money for drugs.
And Elia feeling this very strong family obligation to look after his sick father, despite the fact that his father isn't very nice to him.
He is only ever critical of Ilya and as result, Ilya very much just sort of takes everything on himself.
It's a lot of pressure, again, taken back to their age.
They're just in their early twenties and Ilya is quite a young man and having to take on the pressure of supporting his entire family, of carrying the family legacy, of not
shaming them as well, especially the fact that Ilya is bisexual has to cause so many of these complicated feelings in him.
And you will notice that Ilya a lot sees shame with his mother.
a of the time in the TV show he will see a shame of his mother.
And the contrast for him must be so stark that Shane has this huge support system and there must be bit of envy there as well.
I do think it does come out sometimes in the interactions that they have.
But yeah, I really liked the sort of Russia sort of storyline in this episode.
I think it was really needed.
Yeah, and I like that you were talking about sort of, you know, the way Elia must have been raised and what kind of an impact that must have on you, sort of not just on your
attachment style, but as you're growing up, because what happens is you grow up in a very critical environment, essentially, you know, I mean, I gather that he's been the main
provider for his family for a very long time.
This isn't new.
And so his role in the family isn't as a child.
He's grown up thinking,
potentially, you know, um if I don't work and I don't play and I don't play well and win cups and things like that, my family suffers as a result.
Yeah, so there's that pressure which seems to be motivation for him.
Like you'll notice that a lot of like the sports commentators when they're watching matches will be like, oh, Ilya always comes out and plays his strongest after he's
suffered like through some sort of event like his father having to attend that party and the pressure being put on him, the losing the sort of the Olympics and things like that
there, he just comes out.
that much stronger as a result of it so that pressure you must feel must be like the motivation that pushes him to drive that puts him on and obviously it's going to be very
interesting now to see what happens knowing that Ilya Suavar is quite sick like what will happen when that pressure is gone like what will motivate him then will he still even want
to play hockey how is his life going to change after that point
So yeah, it opens up this wider discussion around his character and sort of what will be motivating him in the future.
Ideally as fans, we want to thank Shane.
So we'll see what happens.
Yeah.
And even thinking about sort of like, when you sort of grow up, I'm thinking psychologically, because we both come from a psychological background in a way, you know,
I'm thinking when you grow up in that type of critical household, you can either rebel against it, or you internalize it.
And at first I was like, Ilya is a rebel, like he comes across as a rebel.
But actually, when I watched this the second and maybe even the third time, I was actually thinking...
He's internalizing a lot of what his father says because in that scene where they're doing the bow tie or whatever, his father talks about sort of like, you're the captain.
And Ilya was talking about like, we just didn't click or something.
It's not about clicking, you're the captain.
Sort of putting that ownership.
And then there's a locker room scene later in the episode where he really riles up the curve of his teammates.
And you know, like in a positive way and like, let's go win this kind of thing, not in a critical way.
And I'm like, he's listening to his father.
He's internalizing this.
Mm-hmm, 100%.
I think a lot of that links back to the fact as well that he is never fully himself in front of literally anybody except for maybe Svetlana.
Svetlana?
I'm never gonna get her name right.
But he's never really himself except around her because she's known since childhood.
That front that he has created for people that...
sort of bad boy persona and the closed off sort of flirt that he has with Shane.
You know, no one else gets to see behind the mask besides really her.
And as a result of that, Ilya is presenting this version of himself to the world, which isn't always very nice and very likable, but it also protects him from anyone poking and
prodding too far into how he's actually feeling about things.
And it's a useful defense mechanism for
getting through your life and getting through that tough situation in terms of his family and his father in particular.
But what happens then when you throw in a romantic interest in the mix that is almost as awkward as you are at expressing their feelings and all of a sudden this becomes a bit of
an issue.
Suddenly that self-defense mechanism is actually starting to turn on you and it's stopping you from actually experiencing things in your life that would bring you happiness and
would bring you satisfaction and joy and
That is going to be a big issue for Ilya, and he is going to have moments if his father's sickness does worsen or if that aspect of the story is carried free then.
The sort cognitive dissonance that he's going to experience then whenever his life is upended with that, when those expectations are gone and he has that opportunity to open up
the chain, will he take it?
Yeah, it leads a lot.
of material basically for obviously Jacob Tierney to work with if he wants to take Ilya in that direction.
But yeah, the psychology behind his character I think is very, very interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, and even to the point where when you were talking, I had these thoughts in my head, or I'm like, but he's also, you know, putting up these defense mechanisms when he's with
Shane, because often, you know, he makes fun of him.
Sure, we all do, but as in not we all make fun of Shane, but maybe.
But there is that gentle bullying to Ilya's flirting sort of where I'm like.
the pigtails in the playground sort of teasing, yeah.
He flirts like a five-year-old, but we all did.
We all sort of pushed someone that we liked or teased them mercilessly or bullied them.
But that was our way of saying, hey, I like you.
But as you grow older, you're like, mm, that's, that's...
Yeah, but I see where that works for him.
But even when Shane, and I know he says it in a playful way, Shane keeps saying, you're an asshole.
And...
It's said in jest, and obviously you can see it said in jest, but if I'm constantly been told at work that I'm hard, I'm rough, I'm, you know, and then also when I'm trying to be
vulnerable with people, I'm an asshole, like, that just reinforces what everyone is saying to you.
Yeah, exactly.
It's, think he picks up with Shane that he means it in a different way.
It's whereas everyone else is saying it to his face and they're saying it on the ice and they're saying it and interviews things like that there that he has this way and behind
his back.
I think when Shane says it, there's someone behind it.
It's, I think that's why he continues to behave like that way towards Shane, even after they've sort of developed their relationship a bit more.
It's because
When Shane says that he is endeared by it.
Like he likes him and he likes that aspect of his personality.
I think Ilya gets a different sort of feeling back whenever Shane is the one saying to him.
And I think that's why he still drags it out of Shane.
He still does that thing.
Obviously it's still part of his defense mechanism.
is.
It's, I'm going to make a joke out of this so that we don't need to look at it too closely.
And yeah.
But I do think there's songs special about that sort of interaction when it happens between him and Shane and I think that will that will sort of go a bit further as well.
Yeah, and I wonder if this sort of having to be very hard and very hyper aware of how he's coming across to people also plays a role in how he presents in the bedroom, for example.
So if we take that last hotel scene, in my notes, I'd call it the full Dom Daddy mode.
Because like as I was watching, was like, this is good.
But I wonder if it plays into his very dominant role.
I mean, for me, just even when Shane comes in and you talked about him folding the clothes and putting them and Elias like take it all off kind of thing.
I was like, they don't even have to have sex.
This is the hottest thing in the whole episode.
I I correct myself.
For me, the hottest thing in that whole scene was Elias dragging the chair through the bedroom.
room.
Like I literally, like there was something inside me that fluttered when he did that.
That's one of those like, oh what's about to happen here?
But it was just such a dominance of power there.
And that's always been apparent.
It's always been there.
It's not like this is the first time.
It's definitely something to do with control in this 100 % that whole thing.
At a time when Shane is feeling quite out of control of the relationship and he's, Ilya is sort of stringing him along a little bit.
Their previous interaction, the way in which they left it.
I think back to the apartment at the end of the apartment scene, not the actual scene itself, which had like real moments of tenderness between the two of them.
It's that last kiss before he leaves, which by the way, isn't in the book.
And I'm really glad that Jacob Tierney did it.
That last kiss wasn't heated.
It wasn't this like hungry thing.
It was not like that.
It was sweet and it was tender and it was very intimate.
And I was like, whoa, this is like, they're like a couple in this.
And then he proceeds then to basically disappear on Shane.
So he does.
and basically more or less avoids him for a while.
And then when Shane finally sees him again and it's at the award show and Shane is nearly in tears in the bathroom because he just wants something off him.
He doesn't care what it is.
He just needs Ilya to give him something.
I think this was Ilya's way of trying to reestablish control of the situation because his feelings were getting thrown about the place.
they were and he was not in control of that situation whatsoever.
So I think that moment then in the hotel room was Ilya trying to re-establish that.
I think that's also why he was so cold after it.
He didn't even, you didn't even kiss or we didn't even kiss.
Like that was definitely Ilya trying to re-establish control of the situation I believe.
I think he was believing to himself that it was getting a little out of hand.
This is getting a little too personal, it's getting a little too real.
So I'm going to bring this back for us and that sort of
basically putting a leash on she for lack of a better way of putting it.
is Ilja trying to give himself some sort of illusion of control over the relationship, I think.
Yeah, I totally agree because that and in my notes I've got like this dom-sub sort of type of interaction type of sort of a relationship here happening where you know Shane's asking
him to you know get on his knees and then Ilja's like no you get on your knees or something to that effect and then when he does he's like no I'm not gonna do it this is
where it's going to happen so he's establishing what's going to happen where it's going to happen and what Shane will do when it happens so that power place sort of emerges
even earlier on in that bathroom scene for example.
100 % and then it's carried all the way through then, so the end of the episode.
And I think that's really effective.
Again, it tells you so much about their dynamic as a couple.
Shane is someone who is constantly in need of control of his life.
So he is and everything he does from the way he has to fold his clothes, he has to have his sponsorships in line, his life is so regimented, it's so scheduled.
He needs someone to take the reins.
take them off me, I do it all the time, give me peace, I'm letting you take control and that's that.
And Ilja likes that element as well because Ilja's life is manic, it's all over the place, his family dynamic is crazy, he is dealing with uh drug abusing brother and absolute leech
and his father is really bad with dementia and he has all this pressure put on himself, like he needs to feel a sense of control.
So they're each getting something that they need out of the situation.
The problem is that they're also developing feelings for each other why this is happening.
And this is not part of the deal.
This is not part of the thing.
And it brings out these moments of tenderness between them, which aren't part of that sort of dom sub dynamic.
And that's when it starts to become a bit different.
It becomes something more than that then.
And a bit of self-disclosure here.
As a type A person myself, like there is nothing more attractive than when somebody else will take the reins or somebody makes a decision, like, you know, what to cook for dinner,
for example.
Like, I don't want to have to think about everything both at work and then at home, for example.
Yeah, it takes that sort of load off.
It's not something you need to worry about.
And so, yeah, it does work for their dynamic.
You really do actually really get into the sex in this one as well.
Like this is whenever they are fully like doing the whole thing and the way in which it was depicted as well.
Now, this caused a little bit of controversy online from someone in particular.
was I think a guy, Jordan Firstman.
He
is another actor.
He works on an art show for Crave that's also sort of gay-centric.
He tweeted out in his infinite wisdom that, oh, the gay sex within Keira Wright where he isn't realistic and this is not how it should be depicted and so on along those lines.
Which to me, I thought was just an insane thing to say.
I thought it was so, I don't know, out of touch.
I'm looking at this as a piece of media, as a piece of film, and it very is artistically done like that.
I really don't remember the part in the notebook where you watched the two main characters get prepped for sex.
I don't really understand that argument.
But he then had to walk it back and there was some PR stunt then forced upon Hudson Williams where he went down and
went to a party with their cast or whatever.
The whole thing was just so ridiculous.
there is that argument of how should gay sex be depicted on the screen.
Me personally, think Hader Reveley has done it quite tastefully.
I've not seen anything I thought to be impossible or that out there or none I haven't seen before.
So yeah, that reaction, especially from someone in relation to that streaming service as well.
coming out and saying it's only got photos but random maybe.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know all the controversy about it, but to me it sounds well, it can be two things, right?
It can be is someone just jealous that another show very similar to theirs, gay centric is getting a lot of publicity.
um Perhaps I know he's I think the show is I love L.A., but I've not watched it myself.
So.
Anything to do with LA at this point, I'm absolutely not interested.
I don't care.
NCIS, Dawn, no, none of it.
I'm just, yeah, it's just such a culture and such a vibe that I'm coming out and saying that and having this sort of view of things is just sort of typical of it.
It just, it just does feel like an LA point of view.
So yeah, it's sort of the show at least.
Yeah, you stay true to this character.
Yeah, and I suppose...
just, I don't really get the argument he was trying to put across.
think it was pearly delivered, pearly vocalized and maybe so many best uh kept himself maybe.
Yeah, and I remember the videos from the event.
was like a gift wrapping event that HBO actually hosted where you had Hudson Williams do some gift wrapping with this other actor from this other show.
I don't know Jordan, whatever his name is.
But this reminds you of a quote that came out soon after and I didn't have context for it.
So it was quite interesting where it was from Jacob Tierney and I'm going to read out the quote.
It said, he said allegedly.
This is not a documentary.
You want to watch them douche?
You want me to include Shane in the bathroom for half an hour with an effing enema?
That's not what we're doing here.
We're skipping that part.
Which, to be fair, I can't argue with that.
It's true, it's 100 % true.
It takes you out of the fantasy of the moment, which is exactly what it is.
This is romance is fiction.
I just don't understand that argument of things.
Listen, you can go watch real depictions of sex if you want.
I'd rather have the story, the plot, and the characters do along with it.
Yeah, just don't really, yeah, I don't really understand that.
I think Jacob Tierney is 100 % right.
Obviously those things are happening in the background.
You don't need to explain everything.
It's not education material.
It's not trying to be a teach you moment.
In fact, their dynamic is really unhealthy actually, and they both should probably not be seeing each other at all.
If we're going to take it as seriously as that.
But yeah, I mean.
This escapism, it's not supposed to be as dead set real life as you want it to be.
Maybe this is going on behind some very lucky hockey players closed door, but as far as we are aware, this is fantasy, it's fiction, it's not meant to be taken so literally.
And the depictions of gay sex in the show are realistic.
So they are, they're not doing anything that anyone
who K-Sex 4 wouldn't be familiar with.
So yeah, I just think it was a misplaced argument, really.
Yeah, and I'm reminded of the show Looking with Jonathan, ah, I've his last name.
I don't know if you've ever seen Looking.
It was a TV show, that's it.
It ran for like two seasons and a movie or something, but there is a scene there where they have a douching scene.
And at the time, came out a long time ago, I was like, oh, this is different, this is new.
So if he's looking for something like that, go watch Looking from like five or 10 years ago.
If you want.
you said, anyone who's any male, I suppose, who's had gay sex knows that what they do is pretty dead on.
Like there's nothing in there that none of us have ever tried or done.
Do you know?
I mean, if they're looking for something more realistic, this isn't the show to be depicting that because it breaks the rhythm of the cadence of the episode.
I don't want halfway through
you know, an episode for Shane to stop and go to the bathroom with a bulb in his hand.
Like, I don't need that.
It's not really necessary to the romance story that you're trying to tell.
It takes you out of the moment a little bit.
uh yeah, I'm not surprised Jacob Tierney decided to focus on something different for the show.
After all, he's making entertainment.
He's not making a documentary, like you said.
yeah, it's, yeah, God.
uh
at the first episode for example and they're giving each other a blowjob, like no one in their actual reality is ejaculating that quickly from a blowjob.
Let's be real.
It took about 10 seconds.
But then I'm not expecting them to show me 10 minutes worth of a blowjob because that's not realistic.
When you have like a 60 minute show or a 45 minute show, I don't need that to happen.
Exactly.
The less is better.
Less is more when it comes to sex scenes especially and shows.
use it has meaning, it has purpose.
I actually say this whenever I'm talking about my reviews as well for MM romance books.
Obviously a big draw of MM romance is that there are spicy elements of it.
There's smut in it.
That's a big drive for people and it can be a very entertaining part of the story, but I always tell people to exercise caution, use it sparingly.
You will have people reviewing books saying that I was skipping over the romance scenes, I was skipping over the sex scenes because it's so saturated and it's so unnecessary.
Basically, it needs to serve a purpose.
Are you developing their relationship further by showing these moments?
What is the purpose of having it in here?
Obviously for Shane and Ilya, they're having it in here because it shows a development in their relationship.
It shows Shane becoming more vulnerable to Ilya and it also shows that closeness beginning to develop as well.
The way they have sex is not impersonal.
Ilya takes his time.
He constantly asks Shane, are you okay?
There's characterization in that Ilya, this person who up to this point is an asshole and has been behaving in that way towards Shane for ages.
which is part of his personality, but there's that tenderness as well.
He cares.
He wants Shane to be comfortable.
He wants him to have a good time and he's not selfish in that sense.
So whenever you then get him towards the end of the episode, do you actually behave that way?
We know it's false.
We know it's wrong.
We know it's not how he truly behaves and how he truly is because we've seen the real version of him before he freaked out and tried to cover it all up.
So yeah, it serves a purpose and that is true in any TV show.
So sex for sex 's sake
doesn't work whenever you're trying to tell stories like this.
matters whenever you include it and it matters how long it's shot and what it coincides and what it proceeds so that everything flows correctly and it tells a story.
That is the whole point of having sex scenes in books.
It's not just for the satisfaction of the audience.
It has to have purpose.
Yeah, and I really like that you picked up on the fact that Ilya keeps asking Shane, is this okay?
Because for me, what came across was he's continually asking for consent.
And that was so important for me to hear because that's not always depicted.
So yes, are you looking for, you know, realism?
That's real.
Asking for consent is real, actually.
Checking in your partner.
It's his first time as well.
It's important that Ilya is asking the questions and it shows that he actually is caring.
He cares about Shane.
He cares how he feeds and if he's having a good time and if he's still wanting this.
And that's very, very important for his characterization.
And also, mean, who's taking nine inches their first time because that's intense.
That's not happening.
There's your fantasy.
If you want to complain about something, complain about that.
So my question to you then is that level of purity and that level of sort of purity culture, like when it comes to sex scenes, is that different for when you have a
heterosexual sort of sex scene versus a gay or lesbian sex scene?
Does that differ at all?
think yes.
Honestly, there's more pressure for realism with gay and queer depictions of sex for some reason.
I think because it's been so sparingly done in the past, now that when people see it, they want to see it as realistically as possible.
mean, no one ever called out all the reams and reams and reams of movies and TV shows that are all centered around straight romances where the characters end up having sex and
They're having sex in lakes and muddy water and, you know, not sharing after being in certain places and continue having sex and all this stuff.
And no one ever went and sat down and went, my God, that's so unrealistic.
I can't believe this here because it's implied that it's not real.
So it's not, it's, it's a romance.
It's, it's Jordan Sparks.
It's, it's not, it's not real life.
And it's nice to have that sense of longing and the idea of romance, know, the song they aspire to, even if you get little glimpses of it in your own relationships, it's just
something to give yourself a little, a little boost.
But no one finds that they're going to have a relationship as that extreme, that intense or that's, you know, overly, you know, airbrushed or anything like that.
So then when it comes to gay sex scenes, all of sudden it's
This needs to be as real as possible because otherwise it's going to be accused of being porn or something like that there and it's not going to sell.
We can't sell that to the audience because that's money.
No one's going to watch two men have sex.
Which apparently was also an argument that Jacob Tierney had to fight as well with the producers of the show, with certain studios that they were trying to market it to.
Oh, cut down on the sex scenes, cut down on the nudity, cut down on all that stuff.
And he fought to say no.
this is how I'm doing it.
It doesn't work otherwise.
And you can either pick up the show with this on it or don't pick it up at all.
And he was right.
Like he knew what he was talking about because he's been in the industry for a while.
He knows what works in his story and he is an effective storyteller.
He knows when this stuff is important and when it should be used.
But yeah, I do think that there is a certain purity culture around it as well.
Like
There is the whole argument as Rachel Reed is not a gay man, but this is a gay love story between two men.
And there is this certain element of the internet that wants it to be like exclusively just gay men that watches this.
So is, I want only gay men watching it, writing it, making it, any of that, watching the whole thing.
That's it.
I don't get that argument.
Honestly, it's...
People would rather turn someone into an enemy than an ally.
And that is very much the argument here.
Like lot of the show's viewership is straight women.
I'm glad they're enjoying it.
Yeah.
So there is that element of, yeah, the internet that just wants to exclude these people, even though they're the ones that made it popular.
It was written by a woman.
it wouldn't exist without them, without their support, without their viewership, without them actually believing in this form of love and these love stories.
And people were so obsessed with the idea that you're going to be taken advantage of that they can't see.
the support for what it is.
And that's a little sad.
But I also think it creates this really toxic discourse online where people are constantly trying to put each other against one another.
And I find that experience to be almost uniquely American.
I do think elements of it now have come over to the UK, to Ireland and a lot of sort of European countries as well.
It's definitely being, it's being shipped over 100%.
But this purity culture of it absolutely has to be this thing and it has to be as perfect as you can imagine.
And it must be for this audience and it must be written by these people and it must have these representations and all these are elements that are absolute musts and anything less
than that means that it's completely unwatchable.
And that is not real life.
That's not how life works.
And I think that element really need to take a step back and see what you're getting out of this project and just enjoy it for what it is.
And
Yeah, that's just my general thought on that.
It's just, it's so very odd and it's so very internet and yeah.
Yeah, and I know we've had lots of conversations about sort of should women be writing these gay love stories, should women be writing gay smut.
And I know where we stand on that.
And to me, it's almost like, yes, representation does matter.
I want to see gay men write gay books.
Write the books, I will read them.
The co-ed I like them.
This is the thing.
Like nothing is stopping you from writing.
There are no roadblocks.
You write your story, you submit it to a publisher, the publisher accepts it or not if it's a good story.
I don't believe that they're going to discriminate about you.
No, never say never, but the idea of a publishing company willing to publish a gay romance book about two men turning away a gay author
That doesn't make sense to me.
So if we're establishing that there is no real sort of societal blocks in terms of this part, then just write it.
Just write these stories yourself.
If you want to see more MN romances from Gay Man, then start writing, guys.
Like, non-stopping you.
My blessing, go right ahead.
Maybe you could put out a really authentic version of whatever you've seen before or you think you can do it better, then do it.
or even as a consumer, then start buying those books because those books exist out there.
I've seen them.
I've seen them on TikTok.
But maybe that people aren't just buying them.
So buy those books exclusively if that's something that you want to support.
Because for me, it brings in this argument about whether straight actors should be playing gay roles or vice versa.
And for me, there was this narrative when Brokeback Mountain came out, I think, early 2000s, late 90s.
I really can't remember exactly, maybe 2005.
about how brave Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal were.
And I sat back and I'm like, and at first I was like, oh yeah, they're really brave.
They're depicting these gay characters and that movie as well is quite explicit for that time as well.
It was quite groundbreaking.
And after a while, as I've gotten older, I'm like, that's not brave.
What narrative is the media feeding us for a straight actor to have to be brave in order to play a gay character?
Like to me, I...
I have no issue whether a gay character is played by a gay person in their personal life or a straight person because we all saw what happened with Kit Conner from Heartstopper
and he was really pushed to be out of their bisexual.
As an 18 year old, did it really matter?
No, it doesn't matter going forward.
And I think there's a little,
the character,
Exactly, and there's a little bit of a narrative happening around Conor Story and Hudson Williams about their personal life.
And it's like the internet needs to drop this.
It does not matter.
It's people don't like to hear this.
It's none of your business.
It really isn't any of your business that you are there to enjoy the content they put out as in the show, as in the elements of that.
The actors will do their tour.
They'll talk about the show and they'll give those elements and those details out.
Beyond that, it's none of your business.
It really isn't.
And this is this is the sort of parasocial relationship that people have now.
And it's gotten so much worse as
sort of online spirits grown.
This is where you have these obsessive fans, like the whole Ariana Grande situation as well where she was like grabbed by a fan out of nowhere.
Like just to make it clear, you do not know these people.
They are not your friends.
The personalities that you see them put out into the internet are only a small aspect of who they actually are.
You do not know them and therefore you have no entitlement to know certain details about their lives if they don't choose to release it.
And obviously these guys don't want to do that.
So really it's none of your business.
Mind your own.
Basically.
It should in no way take away from the show.
You know, I have absolutely no issue with a straight man or woman playing gay characters.
And the reason why is, can you imagine if a gay actor was not allowed to play a straight character?
It would be mayhem.
There'd be a witch hunt.
It would be.
an absolute nightmare.
So you cannot have it both ways.
You cannot have your cake and eat it.
And as long as they are doing justice to the character, to the story, to the elements of the story that are centered around the sexuality of the characters, I don't really care
who plays it as long as they do it justice and they do it properly.
That's what acting is.
Acting is portraying a role and a character in the best way that you possibly can so that the audience buys into the realism of them.
that believe that they can exist and that they're a real person and that you can get invested emotionally in their story.
I don't need the character necessarily be played by a gay actor for that to be true.
But apparently some people do and if that's the case don't watch it if it's such a problem.
yeah, yeah, I 100 % agree.
And I think, you know, I think what I'm getting is that, you know, the actor has a job, can they do their job effectively at convincing me of this story of this character?
If they can, then great.
I don't care what they do in their personal life, personally.
I can, and I'm already picking up on this really parasocial dynamic, even within the heated rivalry sort of content that is coming to my For You page, my Instagram page, for
example.
And as a showrunner and a creator, Jacob Dernie is a gay man himself.
He knows what gay sex looks like.
He knows what gay romance looks like.
But also he's worked on other shows before.
So what he's bringing in is that experience of running a show and, you know, actually how a show can be constructed from its inception from Rachel Reed's book to the screen.
And that's what you talking about before is
is you need that experience of somebody who can do that well.
And he is bringing that experience to the project and that experience has led him to hire these actors.
And they've done a phenomenal job.
They are right out of the book.
Like you picked them right out and they're more three dimensional now than they even were back then.
so regardless of, you know, Hudson and Connor's sexuality, they did an amazing job.
They're amazing actors.
The chemistry on the screen is just absolute fire.
Like, I don't know what else more you want from them, unless you want them to declare their undying love for each other, which they are more or less doing anyway, but in terms
of like a romantic sense.
Like, is that what you want?
Like, is that what you need?
You absolutely need to know that these characters are together in real life when they're not actual characters, they're people with lives.
It's people need to chill out.
It's episode two, chill the fuck out.
I know, like calm down.
it's not, yes, it's amazing, but like a chill pill, it's all right.
Like you don't need to be so invested in their real life relationship.
I think the thing I can appreciate is that the two of the actors do seem to genuinely quite love each other.
They get on really well.
They have a really nice friendship and they're very comfortable around one another, which, you know, always assuages that part of my mind.
I'm like, Oh, this wasn't really awkward for them to follow.
Just seeing how close they are and that sort of dynamic between the two is nice to see.
And it makes you enjoy it more because you like them as people so you want the show to be successful and that's enough for me.
I don't really need to know the intimate details of the rest of their lives.
I really don't.
I have my own life and my own friends and my own relationships to deal with in the real world.
I don't need to be obsessing over these actor lives on top of that.
Which isn't a bad thing if people are because I'm getting very consumed by it from social media and it is occupying a lot of my thought.
I mean, I'm writing notes when I'm watching the episodes, we're recording this, for example.
So it's occupying more than, you know, the average person per se.
But I want to come back to the episode and I want to, I really like this segment because as I'm writing my notes, I'm writing the memorable lines that stick out to me.
I wanted to ask you if there were any memorable lines.
that sort of stuck with you.
has to be that last line.
We didn't even kiss.
That's not in the book.
And it's yeah, that's not in the book.
I don't remember being in the book because it would stick out to me otherwise.
is.
Oh, it's devastating.
It's so devastating because.
Shane went there looking for something.
He thought it was the sex.
It wasn't.
He got into that elevator then and he realized that he didn't get the one thing he actually came for.
And that is very revealing about where he is right now.
Like he is, he's in too deep already.
He's in way too deep.
Ilya knows he's in way too deep.
And so...
This is why this situation's happened.
This is what's led to that moment.
It's just excellent.
There's so much in that little line.
So there is so much just in what four or five words.
It's perfect.
heartbreaking.
And I have to agree, that was my favorite line, the most memorable line for the moment from the episode.
But there were other lines that came to me when I was watching this that started for me to show there's a very humorous side of this show.
Like, you know, when Ilya says like, Mr.
Businessman, Mr.
Landlord, and they always come from Ilya.
Ilya is far funnier than people think or give him credit for, you know, the whole.
like that
Yeah, the whole, will murder me when he comes to his apartment, when he comes to Shane's apartment.
I was cackling, I was like, do you know what?
Like that looks like the backend of some rinky dinky little aloe.
I would be thinking like, I'm going to lose a kidney right now.
And the one in the locker room that stands out to me is when they're sexting each other essentially.
like another character from Rosenhoff and basically Ilyas is like.
Never in my life have I sort of blessed Russians don't do this.
Russians don't blush.
joke.
Those comedy goals.
I think they need to get Conestory into a comedy after this because his agents are...
of them, honestly, I would happily watch a buddy cop movie with the two of them, but just not playing actor or just not playing roles, just playing themselves and just seeing what
it turns out.
Yeah, so as someone who hasn't read the books, sort of this is definitely built on from episode one.
Yes, we get more sex scenes, which satiates sort of the viewer, definitely, but you also get more complexity.
You get more layers to each of the characters, you know, with Ilya with the family dynamics and his dad.
And then you've got Shane also with family dynamics, but also this undercurrent of perhaps some neurodivergence, perhaps.
um
What I'm looking forward to going forward is how this plays out because they can't keep this dynamic on forever.
Something has to happen.
has to either they come together or there's conflict and they move apart, but something has to happen to forward the storyline.
I'm wondering as someone who's read the books, what the next episode, what episode three looks like for you or what their story looks like for you.
So episode three, I already knew what it was going to be about before I even seen title of it.
And the title is Rose and she is the spanner in the works.
She is the catalyst for these two to figure their shit out.
Basically she is a character that's going to come in and Shane and Ilya are going to be quite tired of this dynamic.
Shane in particular, he's going to want something more stable, something
less turbulent.
And maybe it's worth looking back and maybe finding a very nice pretty girlfriend to sort of, I don't know, maybe see if there's other options out there.
And you drop that bomb and that relationship between those two and you see what happens.
Which is exactly what it's going to be like.
Yeah, this the next episode is going to be one of quite a
So well, but I'm also aware that.
they are going to focus on the first book in the next episode instead.
So in terms of Ilya and Shane's story, that's next for them, but there's now this episode that's coming out, which is apparently based on the very first book in the series, which
is a very interesting choice, but a choice I think is very good because there are things that happen in the first book which are very necessary to Ilya and Shane.
for developing their story further.
Well, there you go.
You've got a little bit of snippet of what's coming up in episode three.
Go watch episode three.
Thank you so much for listening wherever you're listening from and watching us.
We will be back next week with our breakdown of episode three.
So from the sounds of it, there's going to be a lot more and maybe some some curve balls, which are not expected.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's gonna be a bit of a switch-up,
thank you so much for watching.
you like this at all, share it around, leave your comments, let us know what you thought of what was going on.
And yeah, we're excited for the next episode.
So keep an eye out for that and we'll see you then.