you stayed regulated and then you co regulated
so the only way a dysregulated child
can get back on course they have to have
hopefully a parent who can regulate with them
to get cause then you asked her question
so she could get out of here
back into her prefrontal cortex
beautiful interesting
welcome back to raising men
Doctor Michelle Watson Canfield is a national speaker
author and licensed professional counselor
with over 30 years of experience
helping men become more connected
and intentional fathers
she's the founder of the ABBA Project
a forum for dads of daughters in their teens and 20s
and the host of the Dad Whisperer podcast
alongside her husband Doctor Ken Canfield
she co chairs the Father Daughter Initiative
at the National Center for fathering
her best selling books dad
here's what I really need from you and let's talk
have equipped thousands of men
to bridge the emotional gap with their daughters
and in the process heal their own wounds
welcome to raising men Doctor Canfield
I'm so glad to be here and you can call me Michelle hey
OK I will
I will call you I will call you
you know what you worked hard for that title
so I'll call you Doctor Michelle how's that
I know how much work that is
so Doctor Michelle this is a
this is a real treat we were talking about the
the podcast is about raising men
but the focus of your work has always
has also been about has always been about daughters
I'd love to understand
what is similar and dissimilar about that
so what
first opened your eyes to the unique dynamic
between dads and daughters
and how did you get into this
well you know
I've I've been mentoring and kind of
coaching young women and teenagers since I was 19
I'm now mid 60s so do the math
that's a long time over 45 years
which simply means I'm old
I mean I once heard Oprah Winfrey say
the best invention of the 20th century
guess what hair colour
ha ha ha ha you know what I
I can see that I can see that
I look much older if I went grey
but anyways I digress
so anyway so I've
I've invested in teenage
and young adult women for a long time
in different roles and then
when I became a professional counselor in my late 30s
really where I've dialed in is
is with women young women
teenage women and I'm the oldest of four daughters
so I've really a lot of estrogen
a lot of being on my planet of Venus
and so when I was 49 I
I begin to realize that
so many of my counseling clients
if you trace back what their issues were or are
even currently it's often a father void
where dad missed filling their love tank
or connecting with their heart
or a dad wound where there had been injury
and so whether it's emotional sexual
spiritual even spiritual abuse
those kinds of things and so one day
I was actually reading my Bible at Christmas time
and read about this guy named John the Baptist
who was gonna turn the hearts
not the heads of fathers to their daughter
and the light bulb went on
I went
I think a lot of men don't know how to turn a heart
and men are really good at turning head their head
which I say men
we need your mind you help us
help us fill out fast as
for college or specs on a car to get the best one
and read a map and I
I know that's a little gender stereotypical
but still I'm saying
by and large I want to affirm men always and say
you bring gifts to the world that we as women need
and yet this whole idea of turning a heart
is something that a lot of men
I've coached and counseled and been with
at conferences and I write to them
they'll say yeah yeah
that's not quite my strong suit
I don't even know what that means
and so in January of 10
after kind of that aha moment about the heart turning
I emailed 11 dads
whose daughters at the time were my counseling clients
in their teens or 20s and asked these men
many of whom I'd never met
how would you like to join me once a month
for six months to see if there's a change in you
your daughter or your relationship
and guess what Sean
I bet they all said sign me up
ten of the 11 said yes we ended up going a year
wow and I never had any curriculum
I didn't have any idea of where I was going
but every month I just wrote it down
I know this sounds like promo
but really I'm just saying dad
this is a resource for you
I put all of that into this book
and I wrote it in Martian right
I flew to your planet they're all really short chapters
they're like two pages that's a whole chapter
I've been men go perfect
I read two chapters last night
I'm like rock on
I wrote it with that in mind
so men could feel like they accomplished something
but really I did that for 10 years in Portland
before moving now to Arkansas
but I continue to do dad daughter Friday blogs
I've done that since 14 wrote a second book
I speak at men's conferences
I coach men so
I am
I'm passionate like you are about equipping men to lead
yeah oh
I love that so much I think
what are
what do you see as the similarities
or differences
between how dads need to show up for their daughters
and how dads should be showing up for their sons
you know much of it is obviously the same
you're the same man true with
with your same history with your same triggers
with your same assets and liabilities right
like you're all still the same you
so in many ways
showing up for your kids means showing up for your kids
being present is the present
it's the gift right
but at the same time and you have a daughter and a son
and you and I were even talking before this recording
you're like it's different
yeah every man I
I can't think of one I've ever talked to
who has said something other than
it's different yeah
and what I love is that many men say
it's almost like a different portal to my heart
uh huh sort of activated or opened up with a daughter
it's just different and so
that's where again
I want to equip men with different skill sets
to be more dialed in at a heart level
like I said about heart turns to their daughter's needs
because think of it men
you either we're married to a daughter
you're going to get married to a daughter
you were married and aren't married anymore
to a daughter
and maybe you still have issues with that
you know baby mama
cause you you still are interacting with her
and she's living out of her father wounds
in fact I've asked at men's conferences recently
I've asked this with my Ava Project Dad's group
give me a show of hands
how many of you would say the woman you're married to
were married to either way has dad issues
yeah most of the time
almost every hand goes up yeah
so I'm like men
why do you not want to put time
investment energy
into learning how to raise your daughter and your son
who will be relating to women throughout his life
why not learn a skill set as a dad of a daughter
that will benefit you with all your relationships
because being more soft more tender
more emotive better listener
that will make you a better man
by what you learn in pursuing your daughter's heart
but it extends to all your relationships
yeah the metaphor that uh
that occurred to me at one point in time about this
and I'd love to get your feedback about this is
you know when I grew up
it felt like masculinity was about strength
and it was about projecting strength
and it was almost like we view ourselves as a castle
and masculinity was about how thick the walls are
and how tall the walls are
and how impenetrable the walls are
and so essentially
you're bragging about how no army can just can
can break into this castle
but almost by definition in order to be that strong
the castle walls have to be very
very small and they only can encompass this tiny
little building of your castle
and wow that's great
you have this
these impenetrable walls surrounding this tiny
little castle that really can't do much
and nowadays I think
our eyes are opened up to the fact that
it's not about how thick the walls are
it's about how big the enclosure is
what you really want is the walls to
cover as much space as possible
so you can have villages in there that thrive
and that means by necessity
that you're gonna look at the way
to be a man differently you are going to
the walls have to be smaller
they have to be they have to encompass more area
they have to be farther out
they have to have more fertile land in there
what do you think about that metaphor
you know it's interesting
when you first started talking about that Sean
my the thought that came to me
which I don't think
necessarily lines up with your metaphor
but I was thinking about the like
I think every person has walls
but I like how you're saying maybe it's more communal
but I think even individually
we all put up walls when we don't feel safe
and so I I was thinking more like individually
every man what are his walls look like
and if a if he has a drawbridge
from his heart to his daughter's heart
she'll know she can approach you at any time
and your drawbridge will go down
and that's what I was thinking
when you were giving that metaphor
yeah
yeah I think yeah
I think that's right I think that's right
you know I
one of the things that you've written about
that really resonated with me
is that men often freeze
rather than fail
and so I'm wondering
how do you find that men are best able to
you know move for that like
like you you
you have your daughter come up to you
and she's freaking out or
or she's she's seeking connection
and you don't know the best way to bridge that
and so you freeze how do you
how do you think about that
how do you get around that
yeah that's a great question
let me first say the phrase that I've often said to men
I've written about it talked about it
just so I can take what you just said it
and put it in my words which is from my
now almost 16 years of traveling
from my planet of Venus to your planet of Mars
so I'm bilingual I speak Venusian
my native tongue and a bit
of Martian sure is
here's one of my observations of Mars and Martians
is that often
men would rather do nothing than do it wrong yeah
and you men are smart enough to know
when you're making it worse
a daughter's having a meltdown
you're trying to help she gets more angry
more upset
more emotional and you're smart enough to go
you know what
I'm gonna back up back up back off and let mom go in
she's a girl she'll do better no
no no
no that's what I wanna talk about
the freeze here in a minute
but so yeah
because the signal that you're sending to her is
I'm not here for you for that totally
you're too much when you can calm yourself down
then we can have a valid conversation
or then I'm approachable
so that's the drawbridge if you will
going back up right yeah
you figure it out then I'll be here
but so what I want to say to you men is so again
men would rather do nothing than do it wrong
but you know what
you're smart enough to know that doing nothing
actually is doing it wrong
so I I found a lot of men that I've coached
dads will say I know I'm not doing it right
but I have no idea what to do different
and so that's the piece that I say
I wanna help you do it right
cause I know that's what you
want
and think about all the action figures that you loved
when you were little who was your favorite Sean
Snake Eyes from G I Joe okay
there you go would you have liked Snake Eyes
if he didn't take action no
that was the in fact Snake Eyes didn't even talk
okay but he moved he took action he got it done
so if if you're as a dad you as a dad
wanna be a hero to your daughter to your son
you have to take action
and I think this bridges over to to the freeze response
which is actually something in our nervous system
where this is the middle part of our brain
where we have a emotion
and when we get really triggered is the word you know
pull the trigger it's there's a loaded gun
when we get triggered emotionally
we we flood it's called this prefrontal cortex
which is where we think
and have good reasoning and judgment
and make good decisions yeah
we go offline and so a lot of us myself included
Anger's been one I've dealt with a lot in my life
it's kind of a go to for me
but that anger response often then men you're flooded
and it it may not look like you're in freeze
that you're more in fight or flight is the leave
freeze is you just don't know what to do or say
and then fawn is the last one
which is more like you implode and just give in alright
a surrendered posture so on the freeze
that might be some of the men go
I don't actually freeze I go into fight sure
or some of the men go I go into flight
I'm just out of there I'm not even gonna fight anymore
cause it's not worth it I'm out
so that's your own history in forming your response man
yeah that's your own stuff
so again
to be a proactive dad is where you're first of all
mindful that that's what's happening inside of you
I often say ask yourself zero to 10
what number are you right now
be honest about your own activated nervous system yeah
and so if you're stuck at an 8
9 10
it's always old stuff it's always your own history
even though it seems like it's your daughter
or your son that pushed the button
cause think about it when you're driving a car
if you have a red light come on the dashboard
you could get out a hammer and go
I hate red lights I'm bashing
I'm gonna destroy the red light yeah
destroy the red light
or I'm gonna get out of the car and unplug the wiring
because I don't like being signaled yeah
but wisdom says you lift up the car
you know the hood of the car
you look inside at the wiring to say
what's going on that needs attention
what is the signal trying
to tell me it's the same with your kids
so it's it's legitimate if you have a freeze response
I would guess
you probably Learned that in your childhood
and yet
being mindful of that is the first place to start
No. 2 I've got some tricks up my sleeve
how to help a body calm down
do you wanna hear those
you'll have to get out of the freeze okay
do you any of you remember I'm gonna ask you Sean
do you remember when you were a kid
did you ever do going on a bear hunt
where you tap on your legs
going on a bear hunt
going on a bear hunt I'm not afraid
did you ever do that you know
once or twice but it wasn't a central thing okay
but okay so think about it says
I'm not afraid cause I got my gun
meaning I've got something to self protect right
and then it says can't go under it can't go over it
can't go around it gotta go through it
such wisdom in that childhood clip
so anyway with this
what you can do to calm yourself
when you're like freaking out
you're like I've told you 50 million times
not to put your shoes in the doorway
I just got home it was a stressful day
I walk in and I tripped and the dad
you use the dad are like
how many times am I not gonna be heard in this
house yeah
and you you overcompensate right by maybe getting angry
yeah when if you trace that you're like OK yeah
I'm not my best right now that yeah
I'm at a 9 okay you can do the going online
you can tap on your like
it's called bilateral stimulation
like we do in REM sleep it's back and forth
right left our eyes go back and forth yeah
to calm ourselves go for a walk before you blow
you gotta go like get yourself grounded like yeah
you can do this is maybe sounds maybe feminized
but it isn't it's a skill it's a ladybug
breathe in blow out like
you gotta calm yourself
and get the oxygen mask on you first
so that you can be the dad you wanna be to your kids
yeah the the metaphor that I like to use for
for that is we have two different brains in us right
you've talked about that the prefrontal cortex and and
and the limbic system yep
and so the the Olympic system is like your Conan
so the the limbic system is like your cone
the barbarian brain
and you need that to fight the saber tooth tiger or
you know get out of the way of the oncoming car
and it's the place where the emotional signals are
the meaning
right the
the the fear that happens when you see the car coming
you don't have time to inspect oh
what is this fear
trying to tell me about my deeper sense of being
or whatever it is it is
oh my gosh there's an oncoming car
I have to grab my kid and jump out of the way
and then the prefrontal cortex is like
your Sherlock Holmes brain
and in our modern world the vast majority of the time
you'll get better results and have a better time
and have a better life
if you stay in Sherlock Holmes brain
but everything wants to drop you into that cone
in the barbarian brain everything
yeah and
and so this the
the going on a bear hunt thing is a way
when you recognize oh
this is this is getting
I'm dropping myself into Conan brain now
I need to get out of that and
and that's a
that's a good technique to get you back into Sherlock
Holmes brain the fact is that I literally have never
in my entire life I can't think of a single time
where I acted out of Conan
the barbarian brain
and that was the right thing to do
I can't think of a single time
and maybe there are some where
you know you know
I was reacting to something in the road
or something like that with my car
and I I don't have visibility into it
but but certainly in interpersonal relationships
going on the barbarian brain makes things worse
absolutely you won't regret waiting to respond
till after your midbrain
that limbic system has cooled down
yeah so think about when your kid was 3
you give them a three minute timeout yeah
if you're 5 you give them a five minute timeout
if you're 45 you need a 45 minute
you need a 45 minute time out for your
for that corner of the barbarian brain to calm down
and anything you can do with right
left hemisphere movement go for a walk
pace in the room
tap your legs bringing that nervous system
back into somewhat of an equilibrium
you will be the dad you wanna be
where you are more regulated
because you all know this
but more is caught than what
so they're watching you and I think sometimes
it can be a bit of a mixed message
when a dad is saying to his kids
calm down stop being angry
stop fighting but yet you aren't yeah
you're yelling at them calm down
yeah you're not giving the same directives to yourself
so right
just a reminder here okay
here's some practical ways that you can calm yourself
so that you do speak in love
and do speak in the way
that aligns with the core of who you are
yeah yeah I think
you know and then
we're not
taught these techniques
to get ourselves out of cone and brain
and in fact when I was young
it was almost like it was virtuous to be in Kona Brain
because again that was being strong
that was being a man
and I think what we're learning now is that no
what's virtuous is to recognize the signals
that are coming out of Conan brain
and to incorporate them into your and
you know apply your values to them
and then act intentionally about that and
and do the Sherlock Holmes thing as opposed to
as opposed to what you know
just acting as if the signal was the meaning
exactly another way to think about it is in
in this body of work
called Dialectical Behavior Therapy DBT
maybe some of you've heard of it
but they have two circles that overlap
uh huh and the left circle is the emotional brain
and the right hem the right side is the rational brain
but where they overlap they call it wise mind
so it's more of a wisdom stance
where you're your best self
when you incorporate both sides yeah yeah
I can see how I can see how that's right
and sometimes what you
what we have to remember where I talked about
if you hit an 8 9 or 10
it's your old stuff meaning what just happened
flips the switch on that's on the wall
but it's hardwired behind the wall
long before that moment
so when we hit a big number and it seems like it's
they're not listening to me
they never put their shoes away
or I've told them to stop fighting
or I asked them 10 times to do that chore
like how many more times can I
I wanna be a great dad
I want to train my kids to be responsible and right
do their chores and get along
and so what's getting activated in
in you I would guess what might
like if you trace that back
where does that tie to my family of origin
was I heard in my home
did my voice matter
and I get that
this may be getting in the deep end of the pond
like how do you look at your inner world
well I coach dads around the country
I'll I'll walk with you if you want
like helping men understand their inner world
where their emotions are coming from
where their responses are
is so fun for me because I watch men becoming the man
the dad the husband
the the manager he wants to be
when he understands himself more
yeah there's a real feedback mechanism at work there
isn't there so
you know as you improve one aspect of your life
that goes to improving other aspects of your life
and so you know
you're gonna improve your
relationship with your daughter
or your son
and that's gonna help you be a better man at work
and that's gonna help you be a better
partner to your wife or your spouse
or whatever and
and so there's a virtuous cycle there
yeah absolutely
and I think you know
back to what you'd asked about
what's different about raising a daughter than a son
yeah is think about daughters I mean
even the research shows like that
that women have 11% more neurons in their brain
attached to hearing and so sometimes men are like
where'd you get that out of that
to a wife and a spouse a partner a daughter
and we're over here going how could you miss it
it was so obvious and and it's just missing each other
and so it has a lot to do with genetic wiring
and so
if you as a dad can understand your daughter more
that's why I've been doing now for nine years
podcasting and radio and writing to dad since 2,014
going OK
I'm gonna try to take what I know on my planet and help
you know what maybe no one's told you yeah
and so because of that whole language thing again
Louann Brizendine wrote a book called The Female Brain
there's research on what women are like
different than men right
and we tend to pick up on cues and facial gestures
different than men we're like
I don't know that you're listening
if I can't see your face and men are like
I don't want to see your face
shoulder to shoulder orientation is how men often
feel more comfortable again
gross generalization
but when a daughter is reading your face and saying
I don't know what you really are saying
or that you love me or you mean it
if I can't see your eyes and so being mindful of that
you're developing a new skill set
because your daughter needs your face
she needs to know not just what you think
but what you think of her
she's internalizing the messages
that she reads on your face
that you may not even know you're communicating
so this portal to your to your daughter
from your heart to hers
is also gonna require a lot more listening
by and large than with your sons
she needs you to hear her because on Venus
we figure things out by talking sometimes we're like
and men you know there's the book
you know the one where men are from Mars
women are from Venus where
that's right John Gray says
men go into their cave
and they'll think it and come out when they're ready
don't go after them
and then they'll tell you what they think
or what they Learned or what they wanna do
I'm telling you for the most part
when we figure it out by talking is
so men sometimes as a dad
you may say I can't even track with you
I don't even know what you just said right
if you tell me what you want then I'll do it yeah
that's right
just give me the instructions and I'll go yeah
and we're over here going
I don't know or I would have told you that's right
but yeah figure it out by talking
so we call that expanding your window of tolerance
that sometimes men you may say
my ears are bleeding there's so many words because
again in that female brain book
she says but men speak 7,000 words a day
women speak 20,000 almost three to one
three times wow
and so women are are going
I don't know what I'm talking
even introverts have their own way of communicating
yeah so they're still talking
and so for dad you do expand your capacity to listen
two ears one mouth
all these skills that your daughter needs
that will make you a better man
even to your son yeah
I had an interesting experience about that
this very morning um
I was this morning
I was very rushed and we got up
the whole family got up a little bit late
and we had some early morning um
things to have to do
and my daughter started screaming at my wife
and my wife said to her I
I don't want to be screamed at
and she left the room and I was getting ready and uh
and that kind of set my daughter off
she got
at first she was defiant
and then she got very upset because
and she's 3 years old she's 3 years old yeah
yeah and
and then she started saying
nobody loves me nobody loves me
nobody loves me wow
and I went over to her and I
and I kneeled down and I I looked her in the eye
and we call her Mo that's her
that's her nickname and I said Mo
I said
I see how upset you are
and it seems that you're upset that
that Mommy walked away from you
is that right she says yes
and I said do you understand why that happened
and she said no
and I said well
what happened when she walked away
and she didn't remember and I said
well remember that you were screaming at her
and now you're screaming again
and that is that working
and she shook her head and I said
let's take a deep breath together
and we did that and she sat on my lap
and I said what do you think we could do
in order to connect with mom again
and she had no idea
and and I said well
you know we could try this what
what how would you feel if
um if somebody were screaming at you
and that made you feel upset
and you needed to walk away
and she said I would feel bad and
and you know
what would help you to repair
and she said well
you could draw me a picture or you could give me a hug
I said or yeah
you could you could also apologize
couldn't you she says yeah
and you know
it got us into this solution mindset
but we weren't even able to get there
until after we connected
yes yeah
and I you know I
I don't
I don't know what occurred
why it occurred to me to do that
and it and
but it really really
really worked phenomenal
that Sean that story
if that's the only thing
men take away from our conversation
it will be worth the listen because you modeled
I'll give it psychobabble words just to validate
cause you obviously no more than
than many men I speak with
to refer to the prefrontal cortex Olympic system
and repair rupture and repair right
those are all words in psychology
but what happened what's your daughter's name
uh we call her Mo
Mo okay
so we'll go with Mo yeah
so she was disregulated yeah
that her her limbic system was on fire
yeah so remember
all of us we don't want to be in that state
a lot of times we don't even know we're in that state
I think it's really interesting
we're learning a lot from a three year old today
cause what you did with a three year old
to work with a 13 year old sure
well a 30 year old yeah
this this is brilliant
this is wisdom
this is gold that you're giving these men to say
you turned toward her
you got down on her level
your voice was calm I'm guessing
yeah absolutely
absolutely so your voice wasn't raised
you stayed calm so your daughter was disregulated
you stayed regulated and then you co regulated
so the only way a dysregulated child can get back
on course they have to have
hopefully a parent who can regulate with them to get
cause then you asked her question
so she could get out of here
back into her prefrontal cortex
beautiful interesting
yeah I didn't
I wish I had I wish I had that level of
of intentionality about it
it just
it felt like the right thing to do at that moment
maybe maybe
it was because
you and I were gonna be speaking later on in the day
and
I was channeling some of the lessons I've gotten from
uh from reading your work and
and uh
and preparing it was phenomenal
that was that well done and I love to
I just want to highlight that when you asked her
do you know why Mommy left
she didn't remember
so that's what happens to a lot of us where
where we don't remember
when we're that on fire in our brain it
it floods this and we we
we can't put it together
so you helped walk her through alternatives
so if dads are listening that they're saying
how do I raise good men how do I raise sons to
to be their best masculine self
which is strong and courageous and brave
yeah and emotionally dialed in and emotionally engaged
is that you LED with both sides of your brain together
and then she followed your lead
well I'll tell you a couple of things about that
so my reflex in that moment
um when she was screaming and yelling
was to scream and yell back
stop screaming right
and that that was my first reflex
another reflex I had that I had to kind of suppress
was when she told me that she didn't
remember what she'd done I didn't believe her ah
I thought
it felt to me like she was action acting on purpose
she was yelling on purpose
to try to get a rise out of me and
and to get a rise out of her mom
she was doing all of that
and she was refusing to admit that she remembered
what she'd done she was refusing
she knows that apologies make things better
and she wasn't acknowledging that
and it felt to me like she was lying
but she wasn't I don't think I don't think so either
and it had I had to get over that
I had to it it often feels to me when
when they're getting disregulated
that they're acting intentionally
which is insane when I'm disregulated
I'm not acting intentionally
I don't see how a 3
year old is gonna be acting intentionally
in that moment and yet I respond my
my my reflex is to respond
as if they were acting intentionally
it's insane
it is insane so in other words
the three word phrase perception is projection
is your perception was she's not telling me the truth
and then that can be projected on to someone else
whereas back to this skill
you listened
you asked questions of her and you listened
that is part of co regulating right
because you slowed down took your
we all have presumptions that we bring into
into relationships and conversations
but you were my and it this was all
how long did this whole thing take
from beginning to end more than 5 minutes
7 minutes
7 minutes to make a deposit into your daughter's life
yeah
into her heart space to go I'm heard I'm seen I'm loved
I'm guided I'm held which isn't always physical
it can be emotional yeah
to bring her where you wanted to go
and you LED by example I mean
come on well
I I hope I can have the presence of mind to do that
more often I I often feel like I mean
I felt really good about that interaction
and how it went and I
I do not think I feel that way
about 10% of the interactions I have with my kids
that's fair I'm in the same boat
I mean we all are human right
but at the same time
your podcast is about investing in men
if they don't know where to go to ask for directions
you're like I'm gonna come to you
I'm gonna bring this to you
let me even add another practical action step
so the dads you can be an action hero
that springs off of what you just shared
is you ask your daughter questions
now some men are not
naturally skilled in knowing how to do that
so that can add to the freeze
I don't know what to say yeah
I'm clearly gonna make it worse
I'm out but then would you have ever in a million years
or your wife would probably be broken hearted
if she knew that Moe felt she wasn't loved right
like we as women I would say men read lines
women read between lines
we're reading into everything and coming back to
I don't feel enough I don't feel loved
I don't feel seen you know
but you never as men
think that even would have been the message
you would have given by walking away
or some mom walking away but that's how it gets encoded
right so here
I want to go back to this skill
set that I found is really helpful
do you remember in school
I think it was grade school
I can't even remember what grade where we Learned who
what when where
why how
yeah
we all know that that was something we Learned about
how to ask a question right
so dad here's what I say is take that template
you already know it and now apply it to the keyword
or the last word of your daughter's sentence
so when sometimes you go I don't know what to ask next
I don't know where to lead this conversation
let me give you an example
because you just heard Sean say he naturally
intuitively LED her through this
what do you think was going on
why do you think mom left the room
I don't know
so I say use why the least because it's often a why
I don't know but again
she's three of course she doesn't know
but probably 13
she's not gonna know either or 23 or 33
but going back to this idea of
how do you ask a good question
men who what when where
how are the ones you want to use the most
with the keyword of the last sentence
so you could say honey
what are you feeling right now
maybe just start general
she's clearly having a meltdown what's going on
see we're talking about using your voice
your dog's using your voice okay
is it a her or him
a female or male or the boy
my dog uh is a boy and his name is chicken
okay so chicken he fits with your with your population
how do you raise men to use their voice
in a way that doesn't park yeah
he's thrilled to use his voice
he uses his voice a lot more than I wish he would haha
which is what a lot of dads
actually say about their kids
I wish you would just shape up not use your voice
not talk back not interrupt me like yeah
well
fathering it's expanding your capacity for all the mess
I mean I've had to do that
now that I have a big tribe that I married into
five and a half years ago yeah
got married at the age of 60 for the first time
that's amazing now our 19th grandbaby's on the way
so Ken says
your house was so organized and clean before
now it things are broken scratched
he says yeah kids come over and they bring communicable
communicable diseases
there's a mouthful and they break stuff
and then they expect you to pay for it
that's kind of the trifecta of parenting
or grand parenting right
so okay
I digress back to this who what when where why how
but yeah why use the least
so then when you pair that with
with whatever she did just say
or if it's a lot of words and you're like
I have no idea where to go with this
go with the last word
because there's no right or wrong way to do this right
so say that you're
you pick up your 7th grade daughter from school
and you go how was your day
and she's like she had a bad day so she's like
fine you're like oh
OK so you men often are like OK
I wanna make my women happy
I don't wanna make it worse
I don't wanna get my head bit off what do I say next
yeah and so you say what about your day was fine
how was it fine
where was it fine
there's no right or wrong you're like oh
I got a tool in my tool kit my fathering toolbox
I can pair the word with what she just said
then maybe she goes well choir was good today
what about choir was good today
she then knows you heard her yeah
because you could even say the same words back right
it was hard in choir today
you don't even have to do it
it hasn't implied who what when
so you keep the conversation going
but then you may get home
say that you stopped with fine
and maybe her mom goes oh
how was your day and you go fine on Venus
that's a non answer answer
men say if you wanted to tell me more
you'd tell me more over here on our planet
we're like if you wanted to know more
you would have asked me more yeah
so sometimes those are a little bit of bait and switch
we're like if you cared
you'll stay with me and help me talk this out
figure it out by talking
so that's a really practical way
men if
if asking questions and drawing out your daughter
or your son isn't your natural gift
think who what when where how keyword or last word
and I'mma give you one more for your toolbox men
it's two words you're gonna love this
I've had men go that works for me
I like it too men just say get to the point already
tell me how to fix it get to the point already
okay here it is I'm wondering
OK like you
I'm wondering what's going on
I'm wondering what had you screamed today Moe
I'm wondering I
I once had a dad in the Obama project who
his 17 year old daughter Megan
had four boys and she was the youngest
and she's senior in high school
skipping school rebelling
and he goes she either bites my head off
yeah and gets mad at me
or the wall goes up and she won't talk to me
hence the drawbridge and so I'm like
we all have them as women
I have a man go yep
we know when it's the drawbridge is up
so anyway over here I
I I'd say this guy goes
I can't get any response
and I don't know what I'm doing wrong
but apparently everything I say makes her mad
yeah or reactive
so I said try putting
I'm wondering in front of the exact same question
this guy goes well DOC
I got nothing to lose I might as well do it
he goes home no lie
true story I'm still in touch with Megan
who's now a mom to three boys and dad Andy
but he went home and he said
hey Megan
I'm wondering why didn't you go to school today
same exact question and she goes
oh actually I did go to school
we had an early release and that's why I'm home
and he was like
what just happened wow
your tone changed I guarantee it
if women feel like you're
you're blasting them with an inquisition sure
you think you're saying it in a soft softer way
but that's that heart connection
it's softening your tone and being mindful of that
maybe your boy responds to going
come on men come on
get up it's time to go
I I think it's because as men
we feel like the goal is to get the info right
but that's not the goal
the goal is actually to open the drawbridge
come on so
if I ask a question
in a way that doesn't open the drawbridge
then that actually doesn't even actually
even if she answered the question
you wouldn't have accomplished the goal yeah
and if
if like many of the men I've I've walked with say okay
I know I'm not doing it right
like I know the drop bridge is up yeah
I have absolutely no idea what to do
for her to lower it cause I can't pry it open right
yeah I'm
I'm I feel like mine's being lowered
and she's not lowering hers yeah
so then you feel so stuck
and that's what I love about equipping men
to be the dad the hero they wanna be and
and have more tools in their fathering toolbox of oh
I can ask questions with who what when
where how some why oh
I can put I'm wondering in front of a sentence
let me give you another one
man I love practical
I you're just dropping bombs
Doctor Michelle I love it
okay
do you have a dry erase marker
most probably do somewhere yeah
do you have sticky notes yes
I do okay
most have these sitting around their office
or if not your drawer somebody else's
these are a game changer for women
you can do this with your daughter
you can do this with your son
you can do this with your wife
ex wife partner anybody
and I say ex wife I know that's a little bit like what
but that woman also probably has wounds
some of them may from you
sure this is a way you can be a proactive dad
so for us as women
mirrors are not usually our best friend
just saying I've had an eating disorder
I did my doctoral dissertation on eating disorders
I've taught grad students on eating disorders
I speak at conferences on eating disorder
this is my like I
this is my lane right
yeah and I'm telling you
if you men
would hear what the women in your life say
in their head and it switches
it's kind of
it maybe around 9 or 10 is where it starts to shift
I'm sure Mo loves looking at herself in the mirror
and making faces yeah
you're right she does
and I wish they could all stay
there where the mirror is their friend
but something happens along the way
where the mirror is almost talking with saying
every flaw I mean
think of snow white mirror mirror on the wall
who's the fairest of them all
who said that do you remember uh
the witch the stepmom the wicked witch
she's the woman with the power
who's asking an inanimate object to tell her
whether she's beautiful
women are still doing that every day yeah
inanimate objects the mirror
the scale the size by and large men are like whatever
I'm good hey look at that you know
in the mirror it's yeah it's sort of the opposite
we look at we look at the mirror
and we see the tiny little muscle or
you know
that's the thing that is just slightly oh yeah
my ABS look a little bit better today and we're like
yeah but come on
but you guys it's like you see just your flaws yeah
we just see the flaws you're going yeah oh
I can see some work you know
my working out showing yeah
so for a dad here's another practical thing
for your fathering toolbox
to be proactive
is the power of your writing on her mirrors
in your handwriting
or on a sticky note with your handwriting see
it stands out from technology is I I promise you
I can tell you story after story of women
young girls especially who save them like one dad
all he wrote all he wrote was to his daughter Maggie
have a good day
it wasn't even I love you
I'm glad to be your dad I'm proud of you
I'm praying for you yeah
you know it wasn't even that
it was have a good day yeah
when I went over to their house
she had taken it off the bathroom mirror
and put it next to her bedroom door
on the wall so she would see it when she left wow
are you kidding me
this is a power tool yeah
to put in your toolbox
that if your daughter's going through a hard time
or your wife women love this too
right on the mirror
right put smiley faces and hearts and love you
I can't believe I get to be your dad
or your husband or the the dad to
to our son or daughter
you can't water the soil of her heart enough
with your words and yep
we all say things we regret
but this is a way to counter because we know
you know they teach that the love bank is
5 deposits to 1 withdrawal
is a really good ratio of a healthy love bank
just like in in you know
your if you have more withdrawals financially than
you know than deposits
you're gonna run out of money eventually yeah yep
so a way to just be mindful of a deposit in her life
and her heart and his
your son's as well need your words
they need life breathing words
in order to internalize your view of them
and become the young man
or young woman you want them to be is
you have so much power men
to shape how your children see themselves
and I think men don't hear that message enough yeah
that you're told more what you're doing wrong
or you're getting corrected
and I just wanna affirm you
in fact I
I just reread a message from a guy named Tom
this last week that he wrote me a few years ago
and I'd forgotten that we'd had this Twitter exchange
and I reread what he wrote and he said
I wait till the end of your podcast every time
where you say go dads
he says
I don't have too many people cheering me on and he goes
sometimes it makes me emotional
so Sean and I are saying today
go dads go dads
absolutely your view of your kids is being internalized
and hopefully this conversation will up
their intentionality and awareness of how important
every single thing they do
or don't do matters
I love that sentiment now
before we wrap up I like to ask every guest
uh this same question
so if you could
distill everything that we've talked about
into one guiding principle for fathers
raising boys or girls or something
maybe you try to live that yourself or
or maybe you've seen this work in
in the men that you've worked with
what would that principle be
okay welcome to Venus where words
we have a lot I have two hahaha
sounds good I don't know why
no that's great
distill it to one but what I would say
some of it I just said about
never underestimate the power of your influence
as a father
never underestimate the impact
that you have on your daughter and your son's life
when you show up the research shows
that every area of your child's life is better
by feeling connected to you
so really what I'm saying in that
never underestimate the power is
I'm talking about connection
which you used that word earlier
about connecting with Mo
and that word connection is everything
it'll override when you say it wrong or do it wrong
or mess up or cause hurt make amends
but it's the heart connection
when you show up every area of your kid's life
I'll say when you show up in your best way too right
not perfect way but your best self
is just never underestimate the power of your presence
and the flip side of that also
this isn't even No. 2 but is that
it's never too late
to rebuild the bridge to your daughter's
or your son's heart yeah
you may have been given a message even by them
I don't ever want you in my life
yeah so I'm saying yes
your presence matters I would say Sean
probably
75% of the emails I get from dads are for estrangement
so a dad may be listening going
I hear you she won't talk to me he won't talk to me
he's cut me out of my life their life and I'm saying
this is a I told you
a Venusian way of ex is saying what you want me to say
cause I gotta give dad's practical action steps
not just theory yeah
so dad if you're estranged where you you say
I wanna show up but I'm being blocked
go get a journal
that looks like the style of your son or your daughter
and begin to put entries in it with a date
it's like a time capsule so that when the time comes
maybe years down the road that the door's opened again
the drawbridge goes down
you have a time capsule to say
here's the date you were never far from my heart
my heart was open but I had to honor your no
that's a way dad
that you can show up and be present in the present
even if you're cut off from them right
dreams you have for them wishes you have for them
memories you have of them so that's kind of part 1
what I distill everything down to
is never underestimate the power of your presence
and if you can't be present
that's a way to keep hope alive for you
the second part of my answer
that's what to do do you know how important you are
this is a don't do okay
drop your anger hmm
when you are living in an angry place
again that's your own stuff
8 nine 10
but here's the thing to know is that dad
your anger will do more to destroy your kid's spirit
their ambition their heart
they'll internalize of you that they're not worthy
if you had a dad that was angry men
you know what I'm talking about
that's right yeah
and you don't want to repeat that
you get to change it in your generation
and two years ago I had a
a interview with a with a guy
men in the arena is the name of that men's organization
and he took a 47 second clip where all I said was men
drop your anger
your anger will do more to
to make her stop believing in herself and give up
and stop trying and believe that she's not worthy
by just an angry response
and guess what it went viral
3.22 million views wow
just from this 47 second clip where I said men
make a commitment today with your mouth
that you will never respond in anger again
you can determine that and I had a guy
I was coaching around that time that said
you know what
my whole life I've been trying to control my anger yeah
it never even dawned on me
that I needed to actually drop it
like make like almost like divorce my anger
like you're not gonna be allowed anymore
I might feel it but it's not gonna come out
so I'm saying do know how important you are men
and don't respond in anger
that's a two fold way to be the hero you wanna be
and that your daughter and son needs you to be
that's fantastic Doctor Michelle
thank you so much for reminding us that
the work of fatherhood
starts by facing your own stories and
and so that we can show up for our kids
you can learn more about her work
and the Dad Whisper podcast
the and uh
and and her excellent
excellent books
the links to all of those things are in the show notes
Doctor Michelle thanks again
this has been an absolute pleasure
thanks Sean
it's been great to be with you
keep up the great work as a dad
thank you so much and go dads
go dads alright I love it
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino