Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
Today, my guest needs no introduction.
It's Linda Tellington Jones, the legend.
If she does need an introduction to you, you need to go and
look up Linda Tellington Jones.
Whether you're into horse welfare from a sport point of view, from just a,
horse ownership point of view whether you're into actually effective riding,
whether you're into how to be better with your dog, whether you're better
with how to be better with your human.
Linda has.
Covered all of these in the course of her illustrious career and She's one of
our main mentors And but not just us.
She's a mentor to many thousands of people around the world with good
reason t touch Turning to touch is a thing if you don't know what it is.
Go look it up.
We will be talking about it, though Hopefully Linda will be explaining some
of it in the course of today's But we're going to be looking really at the the
idea of where the priorities are first with equine welfare This is this is
something which we all know is not always there in the equine assisted field.
But it's a conversation now that is being had and things are getting better.
Things are improving.
And once we asked that question, we're going to look at welfare for the
humans as well within these programs.
So Linda, thanks for coming on.
Welcome.
And if a listener now is wondering what is the primary
aspect of equine well being that anybody who is running an equine
assisted program should prioritize?
What is that thing?
Where should we be starting from as ground zero?
Linda Tellington Jones: I believe, and Rupert, thank you for having me on
again, I just love spending time with you just in these discussions because
it's not, we're not thinking enough, what does the horse get out of this?
And I've, you know, as you know, I think you know, I brought the idea
of Liberty Ring riding to Germany at Equitana in 1975, and now it's everywhere
in all disciplines, all breeds.
And on my 50th anniversary, 50 years with, through, from the first equiton,
I was asked, so that you've achieved this goal of people appreciating this
freedom that a horse gets when you ride with just a neck ring around it.
And what's your, what about for the next 20 years?
What's your goal?
Because I'm almost 90, Rupert.
I'm so excited.
You can't imagine.
But you
Rupert Isaacson: don't look a day over 25, so you're doing good.
Linda Tellington Jones: And it's really important, I believe.
My passion, my mission is to really tell people, enhance the
understanding that seeing the personality of the horse, acknowledging
the individuality of the horse.
With gratitude.
Thank them before you start.
And I mean, I've been doing this part in assisted therapy, well,
in the very, since, what, the 80s?
When I first was working in Germany in the 70s, actually.
To horses who were said to be really sour.
Horses that were used in therapy.
And all we had to do at the time, I didn't think about just thanking the horse
because I wasn't aware, Rupert, of the force of energy, the function of energy
from the quantum physics point of view.
That every thought we have, every word we speak, every, every belief
that we have and every emotion and every feeling is energy.
And when we just smile at our horses and thank them, just, even if you don't
know T Touch, you can start with that.
Just put your hand on the horse's neck or, you know, where I started
this before T Touch, just on the forehead of the horse and thank them.
And something happens, and I want to tell you this story about three
or four years ago in Germany.
In this annual training that I do in the south of Germany, a woman
came to me and she said she has six ponies that she uses for young
children, like five and six year olds.
And I mean, Certainly, that's therapy.
I mean, it's so amazing for the children at that point, and she
said, but her ponies aren't happy.
Their ears are back.
They're sour.
They're not interested.
They look depressed.
What can I do?
And I said, all you have to do.
When that child comes in, it's just, teach the horse, just to allow them to just
touch them on the forehead and thank them.
Where, and if they, if they can't reach the forehead, go on the
shoulder and just thank the horse.
She came back to me the next year at the same training and said that
her, her ponies are now smiling.
It's all we have to do and it's just so important that when we're in a
place of fear, that's the other thing.
And when people, depending what type of therapy you're doing, they may, I mean,
who isn't in a place of fear, right?
This is a new horse.
If they put one hand on the other, over the other, on their chest, on
their heart chakra, and just imagine that you have a face of a clock
looking at it from the outside.
And put one hand over there and very as gently like with the least contact
you can have to move the skin in just a tiny one and a quarter circle.
What that does is bring us from that state of fear with under the control
of the sympathetic nervous system and activate the parasympathetic.
So, instead of being controlled by our fight, flight, fear, faint,
fool around, you know, amygdala, we activate the forebrain.
And the horses feel that.
And when we add the smile to it, Rupert, when we add the smile, what
happens, we activate our serotonin.
And by moving the skin really lightly, what happens is we activate the
most oxytocin, what Bruce Lipson is calling the trust hormone.
And that's, that's from a 2000 person study done by the American
Massage Association, thinking that they were going to get the most
oxytocin from deep tissue work.
They got some, but way, way more cortisol.
And from the lightest contact with the body, which is what we do with the
movement of the horse, it's not massage, it's a message to the intelligence
of the cells, that amazing cellular consciousness that knows how to, every
cell in the body knows how to function in the body and knows how to take care
of us and our horses, and their bodies.
So it's just so simple.
Just have them do the simple heart hug and smile.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: for those people who can't see Linda on the other
end of their Zoom like I can, I'm just going to describe what she did.
She took one hand over the other and she put it over her heart.
And so if you, if you're listening, if you're driving, don't do
this or pull over, obviously.
But if you're listening, why not give it a try?
Place one hand over the other, put it over your heart.
And then as Linda said, with a very light pressure to maybe that moves the
skin, even if it's through your sweater.
Linda Tellington Jones: Oh yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: A circle.
And a quarter,
and see how that makes you feel, and I'm doing it right now, and
I'm feeling a pleasurable softness.
So I'm now going to add what Linda told me to do.
So I'm going to thank Linda, because Linda has mentored me and made my equine
therapeutic practices much better.
So I have a lot of gratitude.
So here I go, so my hand.
It's over the other hand, now they're both over my heart.
I'm one circle
and a quarter.
I'm thinking of Linda.
Thinking about how much I love Linda.
I'm thinking about how grateful I am to Linda for all the knowledge and support.
Thank you, Linda.
Linda Tellington Jones: And you know what's so interesting?
It just made me think of a situation in Germany many years
ago when I had a young woman.
She was certainly under 30.
in a wheelchair who came to see her Icelandic horse and she had cancer and
she was in the later stages of cancer, but she wanted to come to see her horse.
And so I just had her put her arms up on the horse and she could reach the chair.
She could stand up just with a wheelchair there and with a little
help and take her chest and put it on the horse's ribcage and make the
circle and the quarter with that.
And, you know, just, it was like hugging a horse, and it was, when I, it actually
brings tears to my eyes when I think of the joy that she got from that.
And the reason that we do the one and a quarter, I mean, we, that, that came to me
intuitively many years ago, and it was, I don't know, we've been doing it at least
10 years, when a young, man in autism spectrum came into a weekend for humans
for t touch for self help and he said you know what you all are talking about
here in this one and a quarter circle is that is that famous golden or sacred
spiral that is the form that is in all of nature you see it really clearly the
Rupert Isaacson: Fibonacci sequence yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: exactly
Rupert Isaacson: yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: and and it's the same It's a spiral movement that's in
our DNA, and so it's not a wonder that we can release pain and fear in ourselves.
And that's the thing with the fear.
So one of the things as you're approaching, and maybe you've never
been with a horse before and you're using, you know, some form of assisted
therapy from a distance to begin with.
If you are feeling anxious, you can do the heart hug and you can
also, another one that we do.
is doing these one and a quarter circles on our lips around the mouth
because the mouth is the closest connection to the limbic system.
You know, that controls our, our taste, our smell, all of this.
And you just, yeah, take your, your lips just between your thumb and
forefinger and just make a little circle and a quarter and go around the lips.
And we've had such wonderful experiences with this, with children and adults.
And it just makes sense.
I mean, look what happens emotionally.
If something happens and we, you know, you startle and put your hand over your
mouth, that's a common thing to do.
Or guys who are lucky who have beards or mustaches, you'll see them a lot
just, you know, pulling the mustache.
It's a, it's a way of self,
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, self soothing.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure, I'm doing it now.
Rubbing my beard.
Think
Linda Tellington Jones: of the thinker.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, absolutely.
It is interesting how the chin and the beard.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I guess what it does is it loosens the jaw, right?
And the jaw is where you, if you clench the jaw, that's also, or
if you press your tongue to the top of your mouth and your teeth.
All of those are amygdala things like they're all stress reactions.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: And you can just calm yourself with that.
Rupert Isaacson: But what's interesting is that you started this with gratitude.
So, the technique, the physical technique of that rotation around
the heart or these rotations around the mouth are accompanied, of
course, by a feeling of gratitude.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the smile to activate that
field hormone, the serotonin.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Let's feel it when we do it.
But let me, I, for you, I want to tell, I want to, I'm sure I've told you this
at one point, but it's just such a passion, this concept of the one and
a quarter circle on the chest, which is our heart chakra in the center.
So if you imagine putting a clock on the wall, like kids used to have
in school, you imagine taking that clock and putting it on your chest.
The reason we're imagining is because imagining activates the right brain.
And why is that so important?
For our compassion, first of all.
For our creativity, for our intuition, and for our feeling,
Rupert, because think about it now.
And we have so lost our, this, just the concept of hugging somebody
or, you know, reaching out and shaking hands thanks to COVID.
I mean, people are still, I still have doctors.
Either touch, you know, fist to fist or elbow to elbow
in the fear.
And so, if whatever we, so we imagine the face of the clock and on this
reason we do a clock, you put the numbers 6 toward the ground, you know,
9 toward the right shoulder, 12 toward the chin, 3 toward the left shoulder.
Why do I say it?
Because it's obvious.
Because it's a method.
And methods and numbers activate the very important.
logical left brain.
And we couldn't be here on this podcast if we didn't have an active left brain.
So this is why when you, when you make this one and a quarter circle
on your, anywhere on your body or on your horse, of course, that's the
next thing in order to make a cell to cell connection with your horse.
It's something that you could do.
And it's so exciting because what people, what, what happens is people
become more flexible when they do this.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that, yeah, you're talking about activating the
right brain first and then the left brain.
So by right brain with the active self compassion, the, and then the face
of the clock brings in the left brain and then you've got both hemispheres
available and that's coherence.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
That makes a lot of sense.
Linda Tellington Jones: And so every time you do these circles in the circle is like
a homeopathic knowing of the, this clock.
And the one and a quarter spiral.
And of course, just the one and a quarter activates the left brain.
It's a number.
And again, it's a method.
But, then, this concept of movement.
So what activates the right brain?
Daydreaming, imagination, movement.
Of course, what you have in your, all of your therapy.
Movement of the child on the, or person on the horse with you.
And color, and music, art.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So,
Linda Tellington Jones: Well,
Rupert Isaacson: you just talked about color, music and art.
Now this you also do not see a lot of in equine assisted or equine things, period.
And what's so interesting to me about that is your average arena, as we
know, particularly your average indoor arena looks like an industrial building
and often is an industrial building.
Maybe it's got some nice wooden kickboards, but.
That's about it.
They're often very sterile.
Outdoor arenas can be nicer because you've obviously got the
landscape, you know, visible.
But When you look at old pictures of people in arenas, there's some on
the wall behind me where I'm sitting.
If I look at them, what you see is they're either, or actually those ones have a
little bit of a landscape behind them, but you often see like Grecian pillars or
art and drapery and that sort of thing.
Like the sort of stuff that artists routinely put into their
pictures, but they, those old riding halls had that stuff.
They were aesthetically very, very beautiful.
Places to be and so I say well, I you know, I can't afford to have fancy stuff
But any of course any indoor arena is de facto expensive, but they're usually
pretty ugly Now we're so busy looking at the horse, which is an object of beauty
a being of beauty that of course We're enamored of that moving Aesthetics so
we could say well, that's the art, but I don't believe that's enough And so it's
interesting that you've brought that up.
And so I'm a great believer in bringing art You Plants, trees, nature, all
sorts of things into riding arenas.
You know, when you go to see an equestrian show, that's kind
of what you see, don't you?
Or, or it's darkened and there's a spotlight.
So talk to us about why art.
And music and color came into your mind when you were talking about the
therapeutic context with, with horses, because I think it's not something that
necessarily people go intuitively to.
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, the reason I go to it immediately is I know that
this affects this hard hook, this, we call it a T touch hard hook, this one and
a quarter circle on the, on the chest.
And the fact is that when we do this and imagining the clock and then imagining
the numbers, and we activate all this creativity, I mean, this feeling, this
intuition, and this compassion, it's just, that's, you know, that's where I always go
to first, because most children, and let's say, have gone through your program, are,
everything is on the, on the left brain.
It's all logic, and the problem with logic is.
this black and white, you know, not having flow, not having choice, not being able
to think compassionately or creatively.
It's all for us.
And I know, and we've seen it in our people who do tea touch on their animals,
their horses, their dogs themselves over a period of time, they become
more flexible, more willing to listen.
And I, and I believe it enhances learning.
And what I loved about what I saw with you, Rupert, in Texas.
Having the different numbers written on around the paddock that the kids numbers.
And if I remember correctly words that would that would enhance them.
And I was just thinking from this point of view.
Well, great.
It would be when you went to any animal assisted therapy have
horses that had different colored horse had different color alters
on and different colored ropes.
And.
Maybe do something fun, like have the people before put together
some sort of lei, not from flowers because it's too hard, but
something, or something with color.
Let them put, imagine putting something that would go around the horse's neck
that would be like, you know, like a necklace, like something creative,
and then have them pick the horse by the color of the, that's on the horse.
And it would be so much fun, I mean, with, with your children riding with
them if they would have some sort of, I don't know, a cape, actually, of
different colors, and have them choose that cape, what cape would like, who
would like, who would they like to be?
Rupert Isaacson: I
Linda Tellington Jones: mean, it's just, that's the kind of thing that
we did with, I, I did this in the 80s, and not the 80s, the 60s, at our
Pacific Coast Equestrian Research Forum.
We did a 12 week program with a group of young people in their late teens
being in a, an institute to teach.
them to be able to get along with, with simple jobs that they
could actually function with.
And they came to ride once a week.
And the one of the things that we did, I let them greet the horses and pick
a horse that they liked the looks of.
So they would actually look at the horse, because that is one of the
toughest people, toughest things, I think, in the sport horse world, is
that people don't see the horses.
And it's so interesting, Rupert, when I was teaching as a citizen diplomat in
Russia, One of the things, they asked me if I would work with the young,
young people and teenage sport riders.
And one of the things they wanted was to give them a sense that
the horse was not a bicycle.
And it's the same thing in the German Federation.
It's all the same thing.
How can we get our young riders to see the horse other than motorcycle or a bicycle?
And I think the gift to the horses that you bring, that I've seen you give.
Not just the horse walking around, but the excitement of sitting
in that saddle with you, and all of the people working with you.
And I actually had a chance to do it, too.
It was such a, you know, you can pretend you're a knight or
somebody else than what you are.
And it takes you away.
It takes you somewhere else.
I mean, it was so incredible.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The whole idea is, is the imagination, right?
We, so the more things that can spark our imagination and that's, that's of
course, why any of us got into horses in the first place, because it, something
sparked in our imagination around them.
That of course breeds perspective and resilience.
Problem solving the, the ability to think around problems, the ability
to see solutions, not just problems.
So I'm a great believer like you, that the more things that spark the imagination,
the more chance there is for these, if you like cognitive processes to happen.
Let's take this now to the physical and the structural.
So again, one of the things we often see those of us who are practitioners
is When a horse comes to us, well, it usually comes to us for a reason.
People give away horses because usually they've broken them.
It's just a fact.
So they'll contact you or they'll contact me and say, Oh, this
would make a great therapy horse.
What they mean is he's now crocked and he can't do my hard competition job anymore.
So I would like to get rid of him and I'd like you, Mr.
Therapy or Miss Therapy provider to take on the costs of this horse for me.
For the rest of its life, because I don't want to have to pay for
this horse after I've broken it.
And not only do I want you to take on all the costs, but I want you to feel
grateful for the fact that I'm giving you this amazing horse that I'm just actually
chucking effectively in the trash bin.
What I often say to that is, yes, and how are you going to contribute
to this horse's maintenance?
And that's often, you know, greeted either with surprise or sometimes outrage.
And it's like, well, dude, if I didn't take this horse, you'd be in trouble.
Have to pay for its stuff, right?
So if you care about this horse and say you love this horse, you love this horse
so much that you're going to give it away then Surely if you were going to
pay for it at home, you wouldn't mind paying a little bit less You know, to,
to maintain it where it's going to be.
That, of course, is a whole other can of worms.
But, okay, so the horse arrives, and it's got stuff wrong with it.
And, as we know, that's got usually a leg problem, a back
problem, or like a stifle problem.
Those are usually the three main ones.
We'll see.
Let's leave the brain out of it for a moment.
When you see horses coming in with these issues, Talk to us how you would
set about the rehab of the horse while it was still included in the program
because a lot of people they can't take the time out say okay I'm going to take
you know a year to rehab this horse and then I'm going to put him in the program
because they're they're strapped for time they're strapped for cash so the horse
is going to need to be worked with the Clients in a way that is also good for
the horse and rehabs it simultaneously.
Can you give us your thoughts on that?
And some tech technologies and techniques that people can think about
because everyone's facing this I think
Linda Tellington Jones: yeah And I mean the thing is going back to that thing
of people not wanting to pay I mean many of those sport horses come with
insurance and they get a tax deduction if they're going to a non profit
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely,
Linda Tellington Jones: and I mean it's something that It's just a
fact of life and people are going to have to get used to it because we
can't afford to take those horses.
Now, in terms, so you have the horse, however it got there.
My first question is, is the, is the issue that the horse, physical issue
the horse is dealing with putting the horse in, Other than discomfort, in
real pain, so that the respiration and pulse are affected, and you can
feel a digital pulse in the hoof.
Now, the reason I say that, Rupert, if you had asked me that question in 1975,
I would have told you I wouldn't use a horse like that.
But I have to tell you a story of why I would consider it.
I was invited in Germany after all the present, you know, the
show that we put on at Equitana, jumping four horses with no bridles.
And so I was invited to different places around the country.
And I was invited to go on a three day ride, cross country ride,
with a woman named Angela Payson.
She'd written a book about distance, about wander riding.
It was called Wander.
I forget in German now what the word is.
Anyway and so we went to meet her and the idea was that we'd ride about 30
miles a day and then stay in these nice places where horses could be kept
in a stable and we'd be in a hotel.
So it was a great idea.
So we go there and we get, I had a really nice horse and she was riding
a 19 year old mare who was dead.
bloody dead lame.
I mean, seriously lame in the right front.
And I was like riding along in shock when, when we walked out of there.
And after about 30 minutes, the lameness got less.
And with by an hour, she was pretty.
You'd, you'd, you'd notice it if you had a good eye, but she
wasn't what I'd call lame anymore.
And so we go all day, and about 5 o'clock, the mare starts to go lame again.
Short.
Not like in the morning.
So we put the horses away, and I said to her over dinner that night,
You know, I just can't believe it when I have a horse like that.
That's, that's the time the quality of life is not okay,
and we put the horse down.
And she said, Look, I have some arthritis in my body also.
Do I want to be put down?
No, I don't.
And she said, I tried turning this mirror out when she went, started
to go like this, and she got worse.
And she obviously didn't want to be alone.
So I started riding her lightly.
And you saw what happened today.
She walked out of it.
So I'm not recommending this report for anybody.
But today what I say is.
You know, check and make sure the horse is not suffering.
And by that I mean the respiration and pulse are in normal range.
And, and there's stuff that you can do to alleviate that.
I mean, we have so much help nowadays.
Of things just I mean the cheapest help that you can get and I
don't know if you've ever heard this But they're life wave pain
patches and I have seen miracles.
I mean, I tell
Rupert Isaacson: us that that product again
Linda Tellington Jones: It's called life way if you life way
Rupert Isaacson: life way pain patch Wave
Linda Tellington Jones: w life wave.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
Linda Tellington Jones: and pain and they have all different kind of
patches pain patches energy patches and I I have You I have put them on
people, but the big thing is, the most amazing thing, two horses I put it on.
I want to tell this for your people because it can't hurt.
I mean they claim it's not homeopathy, but I'll tell you, it can't be
measured because people were using it in the Olympics in London.
People I know ride horses, and humans, both actually.
And so, so I had, the first time I, I used it on a horse because I've
been putting it on people with real longstanding pain and you just set the
patch on there and like the pain is gone and we're, I'm talking in eight pain.
This is like not just discomfort and it's longstanding in some cases.
So I was up in Wyoming and an Arabian mare found it really badly.
They didn't, they did some acupuncture, they did have a vet actually visiting that
week because it's way out in the country, a long ways in Montana, in Wyoming, sorry.
And so they just put the mare down by the river and left her with food and like I'm
thinking they're not going to give this horse any help because in those, mostly
today Rupert, it's still believed that, that if she would go in the river and
get her ice cold feet, it would help her.
Which, I don't know if you've read the studies, but it's
the worst thing you can do.
If you put a horse in ice, they're, they won't, they'll last a couple
of months, and every horse I've known in the past that was treated
traditionally with ice didn't make it.
But a study was done at, at Texas no, at in Iowa, I think it was Iowa
State, about 30 years ago, and I just happened to read it in Western
Horseman, showing that it is.
When a horse first, you know, gets the lemini engorged, instead of putting
them in ice, you put them in hot water, not, I mean, hot water you can put
your hand in, it's comfortable, hot and then cool, and hot and cool, and I did
it on the Great American Horse Race, I was the international coordinator
for the German, for the European team.
One of our horses came up really off, and with, you know, a
light case, a case of founder.
In the very, on the second day out, and three other horses had the same
condition, so they were pulled, and they were, the other three horses
were iced, and just carried along across the country in trailers, and
they were put down after two months.
When our vet wanted to do that, I told him about this study, and I
said, let's see what happens, and we put them in hot, and, Like, hmm.
Hotter than warm, but not hot hot.
Rupert Isaacson: Like bath water.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, like bath water.
Exactly.
And, and, and, and then cool, not ice, but cold.
Just alternating.
And we, I've got to call Dave Nicholson and ask him what
the heck he can't remember.
He sent me, I drove like 40 miles to pick up some other medication.
that he gave the horse a shot.
I don't know what, what it was, but our horse was back on the
road in four days and crossed the country, finished the race.
The other horses, all three horses were put down.
Now, so I'm telling you this, so I'm, I'm really, you know, I've had a lot of
horses in my life and seen a lot of cases of laminitis that ended up badly with ice.
So the reason I'm telling you this is this to help anybody who's doing
animal horse equine assisted therapy.
this concept of the pain patches.
So, this horse, they put her down by the river, which, I'm sorry, was really
crazy because it was rocky and she had to go over rocks to get in the river.
So, I go up to see her in the evening after my class ended, and the mare
is standing there, not eating, respiration was up, her pulse was
up, and her food was just standing there, and she was not happy, and
she It was not standing in the water.
And so I put the pain patches on her, bam, and I'm trying to remember
why, I don't remember now, but it was a place that I knew from one
of my, one of our veterinarians.
And Rupert, this mare, I put it on within 30, maybe a minute.
She picked her head up, walked like 10 feet to the hay and started eating and
walked down to the river and drank.
and came back and ate.
That's the first time I did it.
I thought, listen, I can't believe it.
I mean, I just, I was just stunned.
And then the other, the next time, and this is even like, it gives you hope.
And these things are not expensive.
That's the good news.
So the next time was at another horse rescue place in Colorado.
And I was watching this 35 year old warmblood, I mean three legged,
his left hind leg, he was so, so in such pain that he was on his toe.
And so I thought, eh, I was with one of our, one of my friends who's a vet and
also does T Touch, and I said, Why don't we, why don't we just stick these pain
patches on this horse, see what happens?
Because she hadn't seen them before.
And I put them on.
The inside and the outside of the hawk, and this horse trotted
off, Rupert, trotted off.
I mean, isn't that incredible?
Rupert Isaacson: With the patches on?
Linda Tellington Jones: With the patches on.
I put the patches on.
It's, it's, the patch is about an inch across, and put one on the inside and one
on the outside, and choop, trotted off.
And
Rupert Isaacson: how long do they last for, the patches?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, they tell you on humans, They say don't leave them
on more than 24 hours because it, stuff on it, the stuff that sticks it to your
skin you know, it's not good for you.
Truth is, I've had people who couldn't afford even the price of the patches, and
so they put one in their shoe and could go to work without pain in their feet.
So, and I've known people who just put it in their cap and put the cap on.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you get the patch to stick on the horse hair?
Linda Tellington Jones: Oh, it just sticks on the dog or horse area.
You don't have to.
Rupert Isaacson: So I'm looking these up as you're talking about them
because I haven't heard of them before.
And I've got a horse who has some, who, who, who, basically the horse
that you described from the German lady that walked itself somewhat
sound and then would come up.
So I have a horse like this and this horse was given to us.
He's superbly talented and he does exactly this.
He walks himself.
More or less sound when you don't do much with him He gets lamer if you do long
slow work with him He gets so sound that you he then actually wants a sharp for
canter work and things like that You do that for a few days and then you go back
to we manage it, you know We've managed it for about 10 years, but I think these
pain patches might be a good thing.
So I'm looking them up To see what's in them.
And of course there's a variety of different ones.
And active ingredients menthol, capiscum, and camphor.
But some of them also have turmeric, willow bark and of
course willow is aspirin, right?
Willow is painkiller.
So, I'm definitely going to check these out.
It's just,
Linda Tellington Jones: you see, before.
Capperskin, by
Rupert Isaacson: the way, is, is, is basically hot pepper, right?
Chili pepper.
Yeah.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there.
Linda Tellington Jones: No, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you,
but the thing is, until I, I, now I forget, I was a distributor for.
a long time, but then I just you know, I didn't need to sell something.
And so I just started keeping enough to give them to people.
So if they found that one helped, they could order them.
You know, you have a
Rupert Isaacson: particular, I see there's a number of different brands.
Do you have a particular brand that you like to?
Linda Tellington Jones: What do you mean brand?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, there's different pain patches here for, I'm looking.
Linda Tellington Jones: Pain patches, yeah, for different purposes.
For the
Rupert Isaacson: LifeWave, okay, so LifeWave is the brand, okay.
LifeWave, yeah.
Oh, I see, okay, yes.
Glutath Glucosamine, White Willow Bark, Turmeric, and MSM, other things.
Okay, I'm gonna go give this a try.
Now, I know that you're also a strong believer in the Beamer Blanket.
And Yep.
When you tried it on me when I was riddled with jet lag, I remember thinking, gosh,
this, I can't really feel anything from the blanket, but I seem to be brighter.
And then we tried the equine one and some of our hotter horses became less hot.
And which reminds me, I need to start beaming one of my horses again through
a bit of a hot patch right now.
And also just some of our older horses were just.
15 minutes.
Can you talk to us a little bit about the beamer and why is it called a beamer?
People think, Oh, I'm beaming something, beaming up, Scotty.
What is it?
How does it work?
And why do you, why do you recommend this?
Linda Tellington Jones: It's a PEMF.
The reason I recommend it is that I'm almost 90 years old and I've had,
I got my first beamer and 2003 in Germany, and it's gone through three,
you know, upgrades over the years.
I've had the, I've had the latest one, well I had the one that you
have since 11 years ago I got it, and then two years ago I got the new Evo.
And, you know, you see me, I'm riding, I can get down on the floor with a dog.
The other day, Rupert, I couldn't believe it, I mean, I can do
a leg circle with a horse.
And I could get down and work all the way down the legs.
I mean, that's like, just not possible.
And I have no pain in my body.
And that's Beamer, because I, I, Wouldn't I take it everywhere I go?
I'm on it twice a week.
B
Rupert Isaacson: E M E R.
That's the name of the Swiss company, right?
That makes them.
We're not getting, by the way, listeners, we're not getting
sponsorship from any of these products.
I wish we were, but we're not.
How does it, how does the beamer work?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, it's a pulse electromagnetic frequency.
It's a frequency and what it does, you know, people, we all think if you don't,
if you haven't studied this, that our heart is responsible for circulation.
But actually, we have like over 70, 000 miles of these micro
blood vessels in our body.
And as we age, or when we have any kind of dysfunction, what happens is the pumping
action stops and, not stops, sorry, it slows down and it slows like after
about, what's the age, I think they say around 40, it starts to really slow down.
And we don't get the circulation to our extremities and way slower.
So the energy starts to drop and, and the blood flow, the circulation,
the pumping action of these
And what the beamer does, just lying on it twice a day, you reactivate this
and get the same kind of pumping action and movement, circulation in the body.
And life is blood flow.
I mean, without this, boy, we just don't have the health that we have.
So it's, it's really incredible.
The reason I didn't say it first is it's expensive.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Linda Tellington Jones: and whereas the pain patches aren't.
I mean, I and I was just thinking today.
I've got to order the pain patches again because I'm not using them and I'm going
to get the stem cell because they now have stem cells and what I want to say as a
long time unit user for many years before, but I haven't used them for at least 10
years just because I have the Beamer and I sleep on it, you know, I lie on it.
So, with the, with the pain, with the lightweight patches.
What everybody thought before, and certainly what I thought
was that they had a homeo.
They were homeopathic, but that's not legal.
I mean, it's nothing, right?
So they have to put something in them and I'm sure all that sounds really good.
And they have to put something that's harmless and that is not a drug.
Otherwise, these athletes couldn't use them.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what are they putting in?
Linda Tellington Jones: What you read?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: Herbs.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Helpful.
Harmless herbs.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And I am about to order paint the stem cell
patches for me, because that's
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about the stem cell patches.
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, I don't know, because I haven't used them.
And I just had a new something that's really pretty new.
And it's not, I don't know if I'm in a trial or what.
Because I just read that they're not fully yet you know, available.
So it's, I had stem cells put into my brain.
through the nasal passage on the side here.
It's really interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Where, why and how?
Linda Tellington Jones: And I got ketamine so that the pain was less.
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you have, and who, why did you have stem cells
put in your nose and who put them in?
Linda Tellington Jones: Me, I put in my brain, my doctor.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Okay.
That's a big thing to say.
Why?
What's the story?
Linda Tellington Jones: The story is that I've been dealing with Epstein Barr
virus and Hashimoto's, you know, With the
Rupert Isaacson: thyroid, yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, for more than 10 years.
Okay.
I, Rupert, I'm telling you, I am, there have been, the last couple of years,
I haven't been able to ride, except when I go to teach, because then I'm
stimulated, and I, you know, I rode, I think you heard, I rode five horses in
my last training in Germany last month.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I saw the pictures.
Nuts, but amazing.
Linda Tellington Jones: And no brain fog.
Okay.
Because this Epstein Barr, the brain fog is just, you're just fighting through,
it's like you're going through water.
You know, I couldn't, unless I was lying down or sitting down.
That's what's so interesting.
So I decided, I said to my doctor, because I've been having these dreams
that I had to get mitochondria help.
For years it was the oxygen and, and then I kept getting these things.
No, I actually, my mitochondria are having serious problems.
I've got to get some help.
So I had methylene blue.
Which is supposed to be a help.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, tell us the name of that again.
Linda Tellington Jones: Methylene blue.
Methylene
Rupert Isaacson: blue.
Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: You can look it up.
Yeah, I had a IV shot, but it's supposed to make your brain fog go away.
It didn't.
Rupert Isaacson: Did not, did not work.
Linda Tellington Jones: No, didn't work.
So then, and they're really expensive.
And so, well, really expensive.
I mean, quite expensive.
So then I, he gave me drops for it.
So that's what I'm taking.
Then I said, it's not enough, it's not working.
I've got to get help from a mitochondria, I, I don't want to go on like this.
And so, like when I sit down and do an interview, like a, or do anything
on, on the computer like this, I'm fine as long as I'm sitting,
as soon as I get up, brain fog.
And I'm saying this for a lot of people out there who've been dealing with this.
So my doctor said, well, you know, there is this new thing
of stem cells taken from.
People between the ages of I think it's 18 and 40 from belly fat, because fat
is a really good source of stem cells.
And until now, and I have been wanting to tell you about this anyway, until
now, they're available very expensive from what is, from, from umbilical cord.
That's the best source that you can get.
And they're now, they're doing a long study on autism.
With some really good results at the Stem Cell Institute in Panama.
And there's lots on YouTube and from Neil Reardon who developed this.
So it might be something for you to look into.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: we'll definitely look at it.
And I guess what, so you, you, you, your doctor put stem cells into your brain.
Through your nose.
So that's the sort of what the the reverse of the egyptian mummy
process where they pulled your brain out Through your nose, right?
And I I presume the the point of that is stem cells help to regenerate
Linda Tellington Jones: Tissue,
Rupert Isaacson: right and and other cells.
So was the idea that this would help with the brain fog
Linda Tellington Jones: exactly
Rupert Isaacson: and has it
Linda Tellington Jones: Since the next morning not only have I had no brain
fog, but I had the energy I mean, I couldn't stop myself from getting
dressed and going to run And I've been wanting to do this ever since I got home.
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting with you is I, whenever I meet you, you know,
these days we tend to meet in Germany.
And you say to me this, Oh, Rupert, I've got, you know, brain
fog, I'm not as young as I was.
And I, then I see you jetting off somewhere else.
And I think you a bit like me are often jet lagged and traveling all the time.
And yet here you are almost 90.
Thriving and now riding these young warm bloods again.
So there must be something in it.
What, so let's, let's take this then to people like yourself.
One of the things that's not really talked about much within equine assisted
work, people talk about kids a lot.
We work a lot with kids and young adults.
People talk about people with trauma, you know, so that might be a more
adult population, but people don't really talk about the elderly.
Linda Tellington Jones: The
Rupert Isaacson: elderly, you know, sometimes you'll see someone who's had a
stroke or a TBI who's older up on a horse.
Generally, the older people you see on horses are people who are just older
but ride, you know, and it obviously.
It's therapeutic to that degree, but you don't really see programs aimed at
this and I suppose perhaps that's a risk factor, people falling off or whatever,
but we all know that the outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man,
we all know the brain, BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, effect of
moving and problem solving, balancing, this must be good are you aware of that?
of any programs that are specifically targeted for the elderly?
And if not, why not?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, it's a really good question.
And I think probably the, the insurance and risk factors, but Rupert, one
of the things that I'm seeing, and I have a friend who has no issues.
She's a great therapist.
And she decided to do one of these equine assisted therapies where you just.
be in the presence of a horse, just sitting in a pa in a, like
a pasture actually, and see if the horse has come up to you.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And it was life changing for her.
And then her husband who has some fear issues did it and and for the two of them
together It was amazing just being in the presence of horses But riding was not I'm,
sure they wouldn't even be interested.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, one of the reasons I ask is I actually just recently got
contacted by a developer, german developer actually, but he's based out of hong
kong and they are creating a retirement community in Hong Kong Chiang Mai in
Thailand and you may know that we have a good horse boy movement method place in
Thailand called Farm Delek and we must get Gay Pantrat who runs that place on
this show actually because she's, she's done, it does incredible work and it's
also an organic farm and they do amazing classical horsemanship and everything.
They're, they're, they're state of the art amazing but this guy contacted
me, Sebastian, and said, yeah, look Ru, we want to do a retirement
community based around an equestrian.
Not necessarily with the idea that Everyone who buys a house in this
retirement community would ride but more Because the presence of
horses seems to be so therapeutic.
Maybe their grandkids want to come and ride Maybe also people from the local
town want to come and ride and this creates a social life and a social hub
and younger people And so on but You know, and so we're now working together to look
at adapting horseboy movement method, perhaps for an age of an older population.
But it does seem to me also that just in our culture, we are so youth oriented.
The, my father, for example, who's 90 he's,
he's very active.
So when people see someone who's older, who's very active, there's
this kind of, Oh, wow, that's amazing.
I don't know.
But in general, people past the age of about 75, maybe it's 80 these days
because people are living longer.
There is a bit of a, just a kind of writing off.
And.
This seems to me a gap really in our field, you know that the and here you are
representing the older rider You know, is this something we should be looking at?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, I think Thailand would be a good place.
The problem in our country, so many people are overweight.
You'd have to have, which isn't a problem.
I mean, these warm bloods that, you know, or actually, actually, I don't mean warm
bloods, cold bloods make fabulous horses.
They're fun.
They're so interesting to sit on and they're really impressive.
And all you need is a really great ramp to get
Rupert Isaacson: people.
Linda Tellington Jones: I mean, you need a tall, tall ones for them, but it's,
I mean, see, have, I think it would be wonderful and have different sizes of
horses, like ponies for the kids, but small horses actually rather than ponies,
because it's so hard to keep a pony happy, you know, people boss them around so much
that, and don't treat them with respect,
Rupert Isaacson: so they're
Linda Tellington Jones: resentful.
Yeah, but I think it's a great idea and what would be really fun is to
have you could have competitions of having people leading horses through,
you know, the kind of stuff that we do like through what we call it.
And, and it, it so empowers people to be able to just be in the
presence of that horse and to.
Be able to do something together with them and
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I think this is something I think this is something
maybe we should start exploring Maybe you and I should have a chat with this guy.
Maybe I should bring you in on the project Let's do that.
I'm talking to him tomorrow actually.
Okay, let's go back to the structural side of things with the horse another
The two other areas that you generally see a lot of problems with the horses that get
donated for therapy backs You Of course, the back is a big thing, because there's
many parts of the back, and stifle.
You definitely see lots of problems through there.
Somebody gets a horse, lovely character, has problems there.
Talk to us about your first approaches.
What would you be looking at?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, the question is, I mean, what
are you using for saddles?
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Linda Tellington Jones: Because this is a thing that I find with so many horses and
you saw the pictures of me on that one.
It's called the German warm blood.
But this, the mare has a head like an Arab, really sensitive horse.
And she was brought to this clinic because she's an event horse.
And the rider said she's slow.
She's has, you know, no impulsion and she doesn't like me.
It's just, so I asked her how she wrote her and she wrote her.
You know, in the hand, like, really collected all the time,
pushing her forward with the spurs.
And it was really interesting, because what I did was, you know, just,
first I took the bit out of her mouth and put the lindell on, so that she
could ride her right away with that.
And, and just let her move, and take the spurs off, and let the horse move.
And it was It's such a difference we saw in the videos and, and then
the next day what we did was it.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
This doesn't answer your question because with back problems, this is
where the Beamer is really great.
And you know, I've never used the pain patches on the back.
I mean, what we do is work on the body, but come on, you know, you have
to have somebody who wants to do that.
The thing that's so often done that I've seen, I've worked on horses.
I mean, Olympic level horses that have had all kinds of back injections and
stuff never did a bit of good until you, you know, did the, the, today
I'd use a Beamer or use T Touch.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I would, I would say both are good.
And, and those listeners who have not explored T Touch, I really would recommend
you do because since knowing you Linda, we used it, we use it all the time.
And it really helps.
One of the things we do to help with backs and stifles and that sort of
thing is we do a lot of long reining.
And of course we do that as part of the, often the session.
Maybe the client is long reining the horse.
That's an interesting thing too.
Maybe someone's being long reined on the horse and we find we can build a lot of
strength and flexibility and also the in hand work And we can incorporate this
into client sessions so that it's not like we're having a time conflict, you
know, where oh gosh You know We've got to find this time to long rein the horse
and work the horse in hand in between clients because that time doesn't exist
We have to do it there in the body We have to work the horse therapeutically
in as we're serving the client you when you're okay So when you you say
t touch when you're using t touch on the back, let's say it's for something
like thoracic kissing spine Standard thing that say a donated show jumper
might have can you talk to us about the specific t touches that you would use in?
that thoracic area
And then we'll go down the back looking at other ones
Linda Tellington Jones: Actually because I worked on a horse
named Damiraz, a Canadian horse on the, on the jumping team.
And he was in, they were in Ireland, and his rider came out to the stall
in the morning, and this was before they kept guards on their horses, and
the horse was completely crippled.
I mean, it was unbelievable.
They have no idea what they did to this horse, but he was, he was
so sore in the back and he wound up diagnosed with kissing spine.
And this is like overnight, I mean literally, not the kissing spine.
So I still, when I think about that, I wonder what is going on.
Anyway, I, this was a friend of my family's, and so I went and
worked with the horse for a week.
And after one week of work, and I'll tell you the stuff that I did with him, his vet
came in and I I was riding at the time.
And the horse, the vet did not recognize the horse.
And because his movement was so different and he didn't, he was,
his pain in the back was fine.
And it, it's just, I was doing the belly lifts and the circles on the
back and in the riding, allowing the horse to move, you know, to
move in a, in a different way.
And this thing of riding the horses, without, with, with the liberty rings
as Ileana is doing so much with.
It allows the horses to go down and stretch their backs when they
want to, and that's the thing it can make so much difference.
That's what, and this lick of the cow's tongue, and I believe now with
this new, are you following all this new studies of fascia in horses?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, but there's a question I got from something you
said earlier, so just, just go on and then I'm going to dial back in a
Linda Tellington Jones: I mean, what I'm realizing what we're really
affecting is the fascia and also the nuchal ligament, because the which
Rupert Isaacson: ligament,
Linda Tellington Jones: the nuchal ligament,
Rupert Isaacson: the one over the, over the, where the, where the
skull meets the spine, exactly,
Linda Tellington Jones: Rupert, last month, I found, I think it
was on Instagram, a veterinarian showing, I'm sure it was, I'm pretty
sure she was, but I can't find it.
It showed the skeleton of the horse and the ligament attached.
And showed what's happening to the stretching of that ligament when the
horses are overbent and over, you know, really over periods of time.
Plus, what she wasn't talking about is what's happening when they're ridden
in this extreme collection over time.
What happens to the fascia and that it actually stiffens.
And that's the other thing that's out there now.
I mean, this is all like really new information, new ways of seeing things.
And that's why, like, allowing the horse to stretch and move at times,
not always, you know, not behind the vertical makes a huge, huge difference.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, mm, mm.
And, and, well, yeah.
So, for example, this is so true in competition riding.
But it's also true, I think, in therapeutic ridings, people aren't
trail riding their horses in between.
So, of course, if you trail ride your horse on a loose
rein, what's he going to do?
He's going to stretch, he's going to look around, he's going to,
you know, prick his ears up and look at something in the distance.
He's going to sniff something on the ground.
You're going to allow all that because you're just trail riding.
Of course, if you never trail ride the horse or hand walk the horse out
in a halter, say, when, when is the horse going to get a chance to do that?
You say, well, maybe in the field, but as we know, a lot of horses are
still living in boxes, you know?
So, okay.
You said something about the lick of the cow's tongue.
Linda Tellington Jones: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Helping with this Thoracic area.
Tell us what is that?
Linda Tellington Jones: So you, you start just behind the elbow on the midline
of the horse and take your flat hand and slide the hand up and then turn
the hand so the fingers are pointed now upward over the top of the spine.
So you start underneath, you know, the palm.
Starting
Rupert Isaacson: under the belly.
Linda Tellington Jones: Under the belly, right on the midline under the belly.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you're stroking from front to back or back to front.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yes, you're stroking from underneath.
You come up, you know, just up to the ribs and then turn your hand and stroke up.
So this
Rupert Isaacson: would be like the long, along the line of
the girth to the saddle area.
Linda Tellington Jones: That's right.
And then you go back like four inches and do it and you work all the way back.
Like,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
All the way down the belly, almost like you're painting the horse
from the, with your palm from the,
Linda Tellington Jones: from the under
Rupert Isaacson: to the top.
Linda Tellington Jones: Other side of the back.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you then go over the spine to the other
side of the back with your hand.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
Okay.
It's just connecting to the spine.
Okay.
And then you, just every hand width back to the flank.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Tell me, tell us what this does.
Linda Tellington Jones: What it does, it, it, if you've got a horse who's spooky
or sensitive, you do it really lightly so that they, so they, you show them
that you know that they're sensitive.
And so instead of desensitizing them so that you put them through something and
they just stand there and hold their breath, you get them to the point that
they're comfortable with it and accept it.
And then I've, I've seen it on horses who are stiff, for instance, or horses
that are, Maybe worked hard or just now what I understand is happening
is that the fascia is hardened.
Because that can happen in these.
When you, you're gonna be so excited when you, I'll, I'll find the poem
via YouTube because I've looked at lots of them and there's one that
is really shows the history of it and then what's happening in these
cases where there's lack of movement.
Because the fascia, they're like elastic spiderwebs through all the muscles and
the body and so when the horse just stands so much and and they're not worked.
It's really interesting.
They harden.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
I think I think this is the same in people too.
Yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: Totally sedentary
Rupert Isaacson: lifestyle.
Yeah hardens up the
Linda Tellington Jones: fascia Yeah, and that that's what's happening
when when people sit at the computers all the time or down with
Rupert Isaacson: their phone
Linda Tellington Jones: They're stretching that fascia And
also, of course, that ligament.
So it's really interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Thank God for beamer is all I can say for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no kidding.
Okay.
So Beamer's the, the, the lick of the cow's tongue, the, the,
the, the circle and a quarter movements down the horse's spine.
Let's go to the stifle.
Because I think this is an area that a lot of people don't really look at.
And you know how it is.
Once you start looking at horses stifles, you can never like
ever see a sound horse again.
And you know, so to my mind, whenever I'm looking at horses, they're never sound.
They've always got something.
And my question is always, can I work with that something?
Or how will I work with that something?
Just like me.
I mean, if you look at me walking, I'm not sound but I can go on a long
distance walking trip, but you're going to have to work with me a little bit.
So talk about, talk to us about stifles.
Talk to us about the approach there.
Linda Tellington Jones: So this is where I see the body differently
and that's unique about T Touch.
The cons, my, how I started to see this is that I'm totally aware as I'm
touching that body that when a, when there's ideal function in the body,
there's communication between the cells
Rupert Isaacson: with
Linda Tellington Jones: pain or discomfort or fear, stiffness, dysfunction, then the
communication between the health cells is inhibited and the body's absolute ability
to take care of itself doesn't happen because of the inhibition of pain or fear.
or lack of, or, or fear of pain, even in the horse.
So this is where our two touches really come in with the concept.
And this is Rupert different since I last saw you, I finally got a
different understanding of why we can release fear and pain in ourselves
or in other people or in our animals with this one and a quarter circle.
And should I tell you the story?
This is, is this getting too far off?
Rupert Isaacson: No, please.
Linda Tellington Jones: Okay.
So, I mean, all these years, we've been able to help people, just kids, just,
they've got a bang, you know, they fall down on a, and hit a rock with their
knee, and years ago, when I hear this story from one of our subscribers,
long time teachers of the work when her son was like six or seven he fell
down and she was going to kiss his knee right he said no mama t touch
it raised on t touch and this is what many of our people who've been teachers
and teaching kids in the classroom
Rupert Isaacson: yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: pain just put the fingers on and may and move the
fingers in one and a quarter circles and you will reduce that pain or the fear in
your body And we've seen this for years.
I mean, this is just amazing.
So, what, how have I changed my realization now?
Oh my gosh!
You know, all these years I kept asking, What is the reason we
can reduce this fear and pain?
And I'm going to show you one book that is just amazing.
First of all, how I got started on this whole concept of cellular wisdom,
of cellular intelligence was one book that I've got here sitting, it's at
the far end of my table actually.
It's called Man on His Nature, and it's Sir Charles Sherrington,
and Sherrington won a Nobel.
Man
Rupert Isaacson: on His Nature, Sir Charles Sherrington.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, and it's the only non scientific book that he wrote.
He's written many, many books.
He won a Nobel Prize, and In this book the, and I can't find it, I got the
definite impression, I know I was sitting in Morvenpach restaurant in Stuttgart,
Germany in February of 1976 when I read whatever it was that inspired me to
realize that he said, he said, look, if you cut yourself, think about it,
the body, the cells know how to send healing, whatever it takes to heal that.
And so I sat up and I thought, holy mackerel.
Wait a minute, when I don't yet know how to do miracles of change in the
physical structure of a human, like I had seen Moshe Feldenkrais do in our
training at the Humanistic Psychology Institute the summer before, I
thought, all I have to do is say cells.
Just touch this body and remind these cells of their
potential for ideal function.
And that's how I started looking at the body.
Instead of looking at it from the Feldenkrais concept of the nervous system,
I started looking at it from the cellular intelligence through the whole body.
And so, that's what's behind all the stuff that I do.
But then, two, three years ago, Get this book.
The Code of Authentic Living Cellular
Rupert Isaacson: Wisdom.
And the first chapter, the
Linda Tellington Jones: first sentence in the first chapter
begins with, Every cell is a genius.
This is the same thing, you know, that Sherrington said all those
years before, that had actually set up my whole life and the work I do
with people and animals and myself.
And so what enhances and what changed me, what made me realize this, wait a
minute, I just, where did I put this?
I had this yesterday.
Anyway, it's on the back of this book.
I'm going to, I'm going to tell you this because it changed my
life, this, back of this book.
So, and, and the reason it's important, this author for 20
years sought, taught cell biology at Tufts University of Medicine.
for listening.
And she wrote that, Here is one legend of how wisdom came
to be hidden from all humans.
Upon up Upon rubbing up against the legend, Joan C.
King asked herself, What if, in all my academic studies of cells,
I've missed the depth, the deeper truth of what I'm really seeking?
It was that question that led Joan beyond the academic
search for the wisdom embedded.
In our very selves to the discovery of cellular wisdom and the journey within.
According to an old Hindu legend, there was once upon a time when
all human beings were gods.
But they so abused their divinity that Brahma, the chief god, decided
to take it away from them and hide it where it could never be found.
Where to hide their divinity was the question.
So Brahma called a council of the gods to help him decide.
Let's bury it deep in the earth, said the gods, that Brahma.
And Brahma answered, No, they will, that will not do, because humans
will dig into the earth and find it.
I'm having a little trouble because the light isn't on,
and the light Not so good here.
So anyway, then another one said, okay, we'll take, I know what we'll do, we'll
drop it in the deepest part of the ocean.
No, they'll find it.
Another said, we'll go to the deepest cave on the planet and
dig deeper and leave it there.
No, no, humans are very intelligent.
They will find it.
So he thought long and hard and said, finally said, you know, I know where
we'll hide it and they'll never find it.
We'll hide it within.
And so the legend goes, People have been running up and down the mountains, digging
in the dirt, going in the deep part of the ocean, always looking for what's inside.
And that just so connected with me, Rupert, because of what I learned,
you know, all those years ago in 1976 from Sir Charles Sherrington,
this Nobel Prize recipient.
And so what I see now, When this, when we put our fingers on the body and realize
that every cell in this hand, every cell in my body knows its function in the body
and communicates according to Bruce, Dr.
Bruce Lipton.
So what, what he writes in there is one chapter on the development of cells,
the cells, and how cells communicate, and you can prove it in a Petri dish,
like they can live alone for about two weeks, a single cell, but after
that they die, because they need this communication, and the premise of
the book is that if we humans would recognize our necessity for connection
and communication, we could be in peace.
It's so interesting, and so what And I, when I read this, this, and this book, The
Code of Authentic Living Cellular Wisdom, I started thinking, come on, my Christian
friends will not care what a Hindu says.
It must be somewhere in the Bible.
And I have a friend whose husband is a Bible studier.
And so I called him and he said, it is, it's in the, the King
James version of the Bible.
And it's something to the effect that.
The, the God is within and all around us.
And it's the same, actually, I've, I've, I have other friends, Jewish
friends who say the same kind of self wisdom is in our religion also.
It's in the teachings.
So it's everywhere.
And so what, Rupert, when I put my fingers on my own skin now, and I gently move the
skin because you, it's not going over it.
You move the skin in this basic.
spiral circle in a certain tempo, then it's like taking a key and
turning a lock that opens to enter a door into this phenomenal divine
wisdom in every cell in our body.
And you know, it's so interesting because in, in the book called Uncommon
Prayer by Ruth Miller, there's a one page that that says that in between
the stuff that makes up the universe.
This is a whole book on quantum science, actually.
In between the stuff that makes up the universe is not just empty space.
Holding it all together is a wonderful, rich, quantum field.
Many scientists call this consciousness, or intelligence, and the rest of the
world calls this God, or, from my point of view, source, divine spirit, all it
is, whatever universal knowing, all it is.
And I just realized this is why when I recognize this in my horse, I'm working
on this, this horse that has a back issue and I'm not seeing the issue.
This is the important part about understanding if I focus on the, on, on
the problem, I'm not going to get this.
Recognition of this intelligence that I'm putting my hands on,
this amazing wonder that we are.
And that's all I have to do is recognize that.
And working with people who have disabilities, I know that you do this.
I mean, kids, or people on the autism spectrum, when I look at them, I see that
divine wisdom in every cell in the body.
And when I am with them, just like when you all, thinking in this
way, are with these people, they feel themselves in a different way.
It's a gift, or when we look at that horse that has a problem, that's
there to help us, and we see their beauty, no matter what they look
like, something different happens.
That's what excites me about what you're doing, because you know
what happens beyond what we see.
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
What's interesting, I think, it's not, here's, this is, just as you say, okay,
intelligence that's within each cell.
That's.
Got to be because they function so well, right?
And When you look at the therapeutic world
With the best of intentions
what we talk about we use the words like disorder disease
Even though they may not be disorders at all
That's the vocabulary that we get given and then we start using it and
then there's always a point I think what all of us as practitioners go.
Hold on isn't really a disorder This is just a personality type.
This is a way of being this is a you know, okay It comes with some
challenges, but show me something that doesn't let's let's let's work towards
What you would call what you just called, you know optimal what to me is
always the issue is not the condition.
So let's say the person has autism.
Well, when I was first wondering what to do with my son, I looked for
an autistic mentor and found one.
Dr.
Temple Grandin, who was very autistic and much more economically successful
than many other people I knew and I thought, Oh, this is great because
you can be like that and do fine.
So therefore the problem cannot be autism and then I began to work with,
you know, other conditions and again, frequently I would meet people who
had these conditions who were actually leading great lives so, so that it would
not despite the condition often, perhaps because of it in some certain ways.
So more and more, and then I started looking at physical disabilities.
There's that word again.
And I realized that no, no, no, no.
The, the problem.
is the suffering is associated with some of the challenges these things can have.
But the problem is literally that suffering.
So what is the opposite of suffering?
Joy.
Where do you see joy on the equine training scale?
You don't see it.
Where do you see joy on the, in the therapeutic literature
for therapeutic riding?
You don't see it.
Where do you see joy in You know, how to tackle autism, or how to
tackle PTSD, you don't see it.
But the opposite of suffering has to be joy.
So it seems to me that what you're talking about here is, obviously, we
associate joy as an emotional state, but how can you have that emotional state if
you don't have it as a physical state?
Linda Tellington Jones: Simple.
Rupert Isaacson: So go ahead.
Linda Tellington Jones: Gratitude.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, gratitude.
Talk to us about the connection, please, between gratitude, joy, and physical,
optimal, cellular, and mental health.
Health,
Linda Tellington Jones: you know in horses what I look for now is how
can I get the sparkle in their eyes?
Yeah, get them so that they're interested.
They're curious.
They're Appreciative of what we're doing.
They're enjoying whatever i'm doing together
Rupert Isaacson: even a bit of devilry, but devilry that's working with you
not against you Yeah, yeah, sure
Linda Tellington Jones: I have to tell you this.
I saw the most amazing and they promised me they'd send me this photo because
somebody caught it on You on film.
We wouldn't have known it otherwise.
This horse in Italy last week, I sent you a picture of that
big gray it was sitting on.
Yes.
Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of me riding him.
But he came, this is a beautiful rehab center with, with vets
who are both our teachers.
I mean, T Touch, Tellington Method teachers.
And so, They took this horse in rehab because he was having
a constant tendon problem.
And his owner really loves this horse and knew that he would never recover to
be a Grand Prix, and that's all she's interested in, is Grand Prix jumpers.
So she, the horse was given to Massimo Duret and Sylvia Materasson, his
wife, and their daughter, who's 16.
So when I got there, and the problem with the horse, He just, he's a big horse,
he grew fast, he's heavy muscled, and he would he didn't want to go forward,
and he had a tendency to what people call bucking, but kicking up, you know,
going into the canter when you stick a spur in him, you know how horses do that.
So it really scared his rider, because she's used to ponies, she's just graduated
to horses maybe a year and a half ago.
So, so I worked with him and like he had no feeling in his body when you would
check to see, like his sensitivity, it's like he didn't feel himself.
It was really interesting.
So, we then rode him in the Lindell, got the bit out of his mouth,
and did some work on his body.
This is where we did tarantulas, which is this movement, it can't, it, it's, you
just take your, Like, I'm holding my arm up and I'm doing a movement, forefinger,
middle finger, forefinger, middle finger.
Like a
Rupert Isaacson: spider walking up your body.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yes, a two legged spider.
Rupert Isaacson: A two legged spider, okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: We actually call this tarantulas pulling the
pile, because I love tarantulas.
Two legged tarantulas.
And the little feet go along about, oh, an inch and a half apart.
and make an indentation so that you can feel little feet and that activates the
neural impulses and then we calm them with a plow, the thumb dragging like along.
Rupert Isaacson: So the two fingers are walking, that's, I'm just describing what,
what I'm seeing here to the, the viewers.
She's, Linda's walking her middle finger, her index finger along her arm, but
she's dragging the heel of her I heard she's dragging her thumb along behind,
Linda Tellington Jones: like tarantulas
Rupert Isaacson: pulling a plow.
Yeah, okay, got it.
Yeah.
It does feel nice.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the thing is, it comes from the
concept of tuaka, or skin rolling.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And that was something that the
Mongols did over the knees.
They rolled the skin of their warriors over, it said, this is a legend, I
don't know if it's true, but that's what one of the centers I went to says.
In order to release the fear of death so it's an organization That does where
Rupert Isaacson: did you hear that story?
Sorry the mongol
Linda Tellington Jones: in in london to release
Rupert Isaacson: the fear of death That's so interesting
Linda Tellington Jones: called chuaka
Rupert Isaacson: Chuaka.
Okay.
I'm gonna i'm looking up.
Please keep going
Linda Tellington Jones: If if I remember correctly, this is like 40 years ago but
so what happened when I when I I maybe I read that somewhere first, so I got
the name of this organization, I was in Germany at the time when I read it, and
I flew to London and I had a session.
Rupert, I am ticked off till this day that I paid them for
the pain they put me through.
I broke it off in the middle because they wanted to lift the skin away
from the fascia on your chest because they said that will release your,
any unwanted emotions you have.
Yeah.
It, it, it released my kill emotion.
I did want to have that.
It was terrible.
It was so painful.
Anyway.
So, but I, you know, I was really influenced by this concept of the Mongols.
Yeah.
They obviously knew what they were doing.
So I started experimenting with it on myself, and instead of trying to
tear the skin away from the fascia, I just rolled wherever it was easy
to pick up the skin, or just made a little, like a little furrow.
And I realize today, looking at these things I'm now studying
about fascia, how interesting that is, because that, that may, that
must have an effect on the fascia.
And if you do it in a way that is kind and not painful, I believe
there's something different happens.
Because I think when we create pain, it doesn't make sense
to me to traumatize ourselves.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
I agree.
You know,
I think we need you as a standard textbook consultant within the field,
you know, as the, as the field of.
Equine assisted stuff.
It's starting to come so much into the mainstream now that people are looking to
regulate it and in some ways, that's good.
And in some ways, that's not good as always.
Right?
And but it's happening.
So there it is.
And you could argue that, you know, that was what Germany did very
early on with the Curatorium for Therapeutic Riding that operates there.
Sort of as a wing of the government, but
Linda Tellington Jones: and Rupert, I just want to interrupt you a moment.
Yeah.
You know, I started working with the therapeutic writing in Switzerland.
It was the biggest one in Europe at the time.
It had to be 1976 or 7.
Mm
Rupert Isaacson: hmm.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the thing that got me, they weren't
paying attention to the emotional health of the horse or physical.
The horses were really, well, you know what you're doing?
Look at that is, do this, add to what you're doing, Rupert, make a
circle and then hold the skin so it doesn't push up and stretch it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda just saw that on the zoom that I was stretching the skin of my forehead.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
The
Rupert Isaacson: self soothing thing.
Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And you'll stretch it a little more if one hand
hold, like, circle with your right.
Holds the
Rupert Isaacson: eyebrow.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, and then hold and then slide up.
And it's really, I mean, if you do it on one side of the face and then look
in the mirror, you won't believe it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And I think we're affecting the fascia
in a way that is really wonderful.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so I'm doing this now and it does feel good.
I'm holding my finger sort of along the eyebrow and then I'm running the
other fingers of the other hand up.
giving my skin a stretch, but let's go back to this place in
Switzerland while I do this.
Linda Tellington Jones: So I was teaching them T touch for their
horses to, you know, for back, for just keep their back supple
Rupert Isaacson: and
Linda Tellington Jones: less pain.
Not that everybody, not every horse has pain, but.
You know, that is, you know, how many people, how many people
are without pain in the back?
Indeed.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Linda Tellington Jones: I mean, that's the truth of it.
So we can do something about it.
So anyway, I worked with them a lot.
And that's when I remember really being so aware, regulated or not, man,
Rupert, there were a lot of horses in a state of what I will call discomfort.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: And not recognized.
And when I, I can remember, I wish I remember her name.
I remember with an Arab mare that was just lovely.
She was so unhappy.
She was just used.
And all she had to do was start thanking her for what they're doing.
And the mare changed.
We, this is where we have to give gratitude and count our blessings.
And just thank the horse.
All you have to do is thank the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: You know what's interesting with this
is we talked about suffering.
So we want to alleviate suffering.
Okay, that's our job Suffering the opposite of suffering is what we must
be there for going towards that must be there for joy Which is not in any of the
literature that way I've been given to use and then What is what is the secret
of joy, of course, but gratitude law of attraction, you know If you are grateful
for things and you turn your attention to those things So more of those things
tend to come into your life, obviously
and I think that People do feel that they thank their horses.
I mean, people, good boy, you know, pat the horse and the, you
know, you hear people say, Oh, you shouldn't pat your horse.
But I don't know about that because I think anything that's that's, Oh,
you hear people, you hear people say opinions about everything.
Right.
And you know, who God knows why, but there'll probably
be someone listening to this.
Oh yes.
I'll tell you why it's so bad.
But if it's a, if it's an emotional expression of gratitude, if somebody
pats me on the back, I might perhaps prefer to have a massage or a tea
touch But I absolutely accept the pat on the back as a as it makes me feel
joyful because they're communicating their joy and their gratitude So
we're communicating an emotion.
That's positive Okay So I think people do feel that they do this and they scratch
on their horses and love on their horses and give their horses Treats and you know
pull on their ears if the horse likes that pull on the tail of the horse I
think a lot of people really do do this.
However, I think You In institutional settings, there
often isn't the time for this.
And when people are coming, clients are coming, and there's this perception, well,
you're coming for this hour or whatever of sport or therapy or instruction.
So this hour has got to be filled with the service.
And it's not perceived.
As a service, as part of the service to teach this gratitude.
But it's so interesting that you say this because what I frequently do, if I
can tell someone's in a bit of a not so great mood when they come in just for a
regular riding lesson with me is I have them do a ride of a ride of appreciation.
So for the first time, you know, I say, Hey, look, I can tell.
You're a bit stressed, you know, let's for four minutes, just ride around the
track of the arena, noticing anything that you're grateful for and it doesn't even
have to be to do with your horse, right?
It could just be the way the lights coming in through the window or the landscape
that you can see beyond the window or, or it could be the horse or it could be
something about the way the light hits the main or it could be the horse itself.
But let's think, and I'll usually say, let's think of five things.
That we're grateful for in this moment that may be to do with what the horse
or what's happening here Or could be something else and I usually will
leave I say i'll start, you know I'm grateful and usually what I'll say is
i'm grateful for the fact that you are here Riding with me because thank you.
Thank you for trusting me and i'm grateful for the fact that I live
with horses This is wonderful.
It's an amazing thing It was always my dream as a kid to have this equestrian
life and now here I live it and And of course I remind myself to do this.
But do I do it every time?
And do I, I think I do more and more now, at least in my, in my head.
And do I communicate this to my horses all the time?
I think I try to now, but I think you drawing our attention to this,
where it's really helpful is in an institutional setting where you are
actually really trying to serve this person or this horse really well.
I think it's a forgotten thing or an overlooked thing.
To say well part of that service is to engender emotional well being and
here is a tool So why don't we set aside a certain amount of time of this
session to engender this well being?
Here's a tool.
It's called gratitude.
You know, I think that's a very powerful statement that you made
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, I think you see the thing is when it
becomes institutionalized You want,
I think this is where it's really important to add in this concept of
releasing fear at the cellular level.
And the, this, this is what we found that we can do with
the one and a quarter circles.
And how you can prove it is with the HeartMath M Wave.
Because it puts us in the parasympathetic state of heart coherence.
And it is the highest state for learning.
HeartMath.
com So from, in terms of Horse Boy World and the education program, there's, and
it's a, Candace Burt, and she was just quoted in a podcast I saw yesterday
on, I think I was listening to a stem cell podcast, and, and her work.
Because that's where I got the idea when I realized That why T Touch works
to release fear at the cellular level.
And then Rupert, do you know of her book?
She proved her book, The Molecules of Emotion by Dr.
Candice Pert.
P E R T.
How do you, how
Rupert Isaacson: do you spell PERT?
P
Linda Tellington Jones: E R T.
PERT, P
Rupert Isaacson: E R T, Dr.
Candace PERT, the molecules of, the molecule of emotion.
Linda Tellington Jones: Molecules of emotion.
Rupert Isaacson: Molecules of emotion.
I don't know this book.
I will, I will, I will go and look at it.
Linda Tellington Jones: The thing that's significant about it, her work,
of course, her professor received was one of the Nobel Prize nominations.
didn't receive it, but it was, it was one of the Possibilities because she,
what she proved is that our cells hold our emo, our, our emotions.
And that through these chemical connections to the brain,
we think it's in our head.
And that's why you can talk all you want.
But that's why I know that with these light tea touches that do not activate
fear because of discomfort or pain.
That we can release fear.
Yeah.
And how, what's important for you and your program.
I, I was going to grab my pod.
I just did a webinar on it last week, but you know, heart, you, HeartMath
Institute sells these little things, it's called an M Wave, E M W A V E,
and it's a handheld computer, you clip to your ear, and when you go into
heart coherence in the, state of the parasympathetic nervous system state.
It has a little song, a tune, a different tune and different color.
And when you're riding a horse, when you go in that state, which
they, which you can get in yourself from gratitude and singing,
singing, humming, singing, humming,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, humming,
Linda Tellington Jones: singing and movement.
So like if you had a kid, you know, who has.
the ability to move, putting a soft stick in their hand and have them direct the
horse from above, you know, play and make these big movements with this, or
calling in the angels or the horse angels around and having them move up there.
It's amazing what happens.
And if you can get them to do this, Rupert, making the movement with
the stick and the infinity sign, wow, that's a whole other way to put
us in this parasympathetic state.
You know, do you know the infinity?
Rupert Isaacson: I do know the infinity sign and I do it as a,
with my fingers on myself in any areas I have stiffness or pain.
Linda Tellington Jones: Oh cool.
Rupert Isaacson: And it, yes it works, but I haven't actually been
doing it on the horses very much.
I do all sorts of spider fingery, caressy things as I ride them
and so on as I work them.
But I haven't actually been doing the infinity singular.
I should.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, I learned it because in
1972, I was one of 40 people who were measured for the activation
of left and right hemispheres by Russell Tark, the director of
the Stanford Research Institute.
We were in a weekend workshop with Robert Munro, and,
Rupert Isaacson: Who's Robert Munro?
Linda Tellington Jones: He's the Robert Monroe Institute.
Just write it down.
Oh, the
Rupert Isaacson: Monroe Institute, yes.
Linda Tellington Jones: That was before there was an institute.
And he was at Esalen Institute where he was doing a workshop.
And I was one of the workshops.
People in the workshop and Russell Tarr.
By the way,
Rupert Isaacson: just just for people listening.
The Monroe Institute is Center education center.
It's this it's probably the world's leading center for
study of human consciousness.
Okay, Monroe Institute Okay, so just just go on.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, that's important to say and so we were
everybody in that class was being It was an invitational thing was being
measured by by Russell Tark, and he said that I had the closest to a 50 50 use
of left and right hemispheres, which I couldn't believe because I didn't
think I was a very logical person.
So I, after I left that weekend, I got the book Drawing from the Right Side of
the Brain by Betty Edwards, and she had all of these exercises Of writing in the
air, writing your name in the air with your right hand, writing it backwards
with right and left hand, and doing just infinity and just, you know, going out to
the outer edges of the universe and coming around the outside, imagining all of this,
imagining coming, of course, up through this end of the earth and up through
the body and then going the other way.
And it was really, I did it for months.
And it really made a difference, but the thing is that we can measure.
with the M Wave.
You know HeartMath Institute?
I do
Rupert Isaacson: and I was going to actually ask you to elucidate
a bit more about HeartMath because not everybody listening
to this does know about HeartMath.
So just get through what you're saying there and I'm going to ask you to talk to
us in more detail about HeartMath please.
Linda Tellington Jones: Right, so anyway so I've, I've been so interested in
this right and left hemispheres and I think it's so important to be on
earth at this time, having the logic of the left brain without having this
judgment of right and wrong, black and white, and that's what the right brain
does to us with movement, color, art, you know, all imagining, imagining.
So the more you can do wearing these great capes and choosing your cape
and then making these movements.
What I did with some kids that I worked with at the Eugen farm in
Stuttgart many, many years ago was having them take like a stick.
A riding whip.
Actually, I don't think I gave them, I think I gave them a stick,
I didn't want them to have a whip.
And have, have these hyperactive kids being the circus directors.
And standing in the middle of the ring with me, you know, telling the kids
who are leading the horses what to do.
And, of course, you know, I don't have to tell you, but, it's, I think it's as
much pleasure for us as it is for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I live vicariously my childhood over again every day.
When I'm working with the kids, it's like, this is the childhood I wish I'd had.
And, you know, here we go.
I can have it with you.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
And, and doing like the NLP stuff with the kids.
I remember another little girl at the Ugan farmer was coming for
therapy in the afternoon with.
And she was, she could never stay still.
And so she was skipping a lot.
So I just skipped with her into the ring and then said, you
know, we have to be really quiet.
So we don't, so the horses will listen to us.
And of course, as soon as you do that, they start following you.
Rupert Isaacson: Play what
Linda Tellington Jones: you're talking about there.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
Brain derived neurotrophic factor, that is neuroplasticity, that is
neurogenesis, that's what we're all looking for, comes through play.
Obviously, riding a horse or being with a horse, if we are approaching it in a
joyful manner, is automatically play.
It's automatically going to be good for our brains.
Tell us, though, you, you've mentioned heart math.
And obviously, I think anyone in our field ought to be aware of it, but
it's, again, it's not necessarily as common knowledge as it should be,
despite the fact that, you know, they now help to advise the G7 summit.
Talk to us about heart math.
How, how did you come across them?
And what do you, where do you think they're helpful?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, I, I came across them first in it was 19 I think
98 or 99, and I signed up for a weekend, which they were doing, just because a
friend of mine had gone to it, and it made such a difference to him in this
concept of activating both hemispheres, and I was, of course, already interested
in that since, you know, the 72.
And so, as it turned out, I wasn't able to go to that
workshop, but over the years with.
I had a lot of connections with them.
And they're, they sent a doctor to us who was a new on the staff and sent it to us
in Hawaii to, because they knew what TCH can do to release fear and in case in,
in cases of like, what do you call it?
Earthquakes and
Rupert Isaacson: natural disasters,
Linda Tellington Jones: natural disasters.
And that's what heart, they do with their heart mass, they do
it with a form of breathing.
And they measure that, and it puts you out of the state of fear into the
parasympathetic state with this M Wave.
And I recommend, just go online, all of you, listen to this, and they have
free, wonderful, many, many weekends.
I think almost every weekend there's some incredible person from around the
world visionary, giving a big talk.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
We have there's a person I work with quite closely now called Kansas Carradine who
works a lot with heart math and she brings this into every aspect of, of horsemanship
with trying to look through the lens, looking through the lens of the heart,
showing people how to do that and why is that physically good for you as well as
mentally and emotionally good for you.
There was a really interesting study, which She turned me on to,
from the University of Kassel, here in Germany, which, it's, that's
quite a big deal, University Kassel.
Way back in the 90s that was measuring the emission of photons, light
particles, from the human heart.
when people were consciously thinking loving thoughts and how, how far
out those photons were going.
So therefore we can absolutely project love and what is joy, but love, you
know, that the, these things were actually being measured by quite hard
nose, German universities 30 years ago.
It's so interesting how these things are not more common knowledge and So she
turned me on to this study just about ten days ago, and I'd never heard of it.
So I thought, gosh, is that legit?
You know, so I went and looked it up and found the study, and yep, there we go.
Knocked me down with a feather, there it is.
And HeartMath, I remember you were the first person to talk to me about
HeartMath, and we had been wondering in Horseboy Method why What we call
the sensory work, where you're lying body to body on a horse that's static.
Why does this work so well?
Why does this regulate the nervous system so well?
Why does this bring people into a state of joy and bliss, the horse too?
Why does This work and you I think the first person to point out, Aru, you
should look at the heart math thing what's going on here is you're effectively
plugging your small human heart into the mains of this huge horse heart and
the electromagnetic field that's coming through that is coming into your heart
and that's bringing heart coherence and this is impacting you positively
on every single level But you were the first person to point that out to us.
Yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: I'm so glad you've, it's such, I mean, I think
it's one of the most important institutions on the planet from
the work that they have done.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's
Linda Tellington Jones: amazing.
And, you know, one thing I wanted to add to what would be your
listeners could do for those who are doing assisted therapy from the
ground, and a lot of people do it.
Mm-Hmm.
We found that, just put your hand, one hand on the chest of a
horse and the other hand on the withers on the ones you can reach.
Rupert Isaacson: And just one hand on the chest of a horse.
One hand on the withers.
Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And I, Rupert, I have had letters from
people who said it transported them into a total other dimension.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Linda Tellington Jones: Just something happened.
Is
Rupert Isaacson: this a horse standing still?
Is this a horse moving?
Linda Tellington Jones: No, standing still, just standing there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.
Linda Tellington Jones: You know, and what happens, you see, the T touch
is not a massage, it's a message.
It's a message.
to make this connection to this phenomenal scientist now in this book.
I don't know if you've heard of this.
It's it's one of the latest, it's called The Song of the Cell, of the Cell.
The Song
Rupert Isaacson: of the Cell.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, An Exploration of Medicine and the New Human.
An
Rupert Isaacson: Exploration of Medicine and the New Human or in the New Human?
Linda Tellington Jones: And the New Human.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Linda Tellington Jones: the Pulitzer Prize winner, the Emperor.
Of all maladies.
Can you
Rupert Isaacson: give us the name of the author again?
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, it's Eflixam I D D David H A R Richard
T Tom H Henry A Siddhartha And the last name is another very long name,
it's M like Mary, U K H E R J E E.
Mukherjee.
Rupert Isaacson: Mukherjee, Siddhartha Mukherjee.
Okay, Indian or Nepali, I presume.
Linda Tellington Jones: And you know, one of the things that's interesting, I never
told you this, but up here, I have a, it's a, It's a PhD thesis written by an Iranian
on the effects of TTouch on Ang angina.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
And because they found it really works just and you can do it yourself.
That's the thing that's so interesting with it.
And we have one of our practitioners he's a Portuguese, born from tech from Austin.
And he swears that T Touch saved his life because he had such, such what
do you call it his heart racing.
I forget what that's called.
I'm really,
Rupert Isaacson: well, panic attacks, basically.
Yeah,
Linda Tellington Jones: they were.
No, it's when the horse just races and he was able to with T Touch.
He's been able to overcome it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Because he came into the dog trainings
and of course, in all, every dog training, we always teach people to
do teach on, to touch on themselves.
Yeah, and this is the thing about heart math, the fact that they have
that M wave and you can measure when you come into this activation of the
forebrain for learning and overriding the primitive part of the brain for panic.
And then the other.
A huge influence in my life, Rupert, has been Jerry Jampolsky.
You know, he he is the author of many, many books, and the one that
we use all the time in our trainings is Love is Letting Go of Fear.
Rupert Isaacson: Love is letting go of fear.
Linda Tellington Jones: Fear, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I had an experience 1984 at the Chris Griscombe's Light Institute in Galisteu.
I was having a session with what they call needles to the sky points,
acupuncture needles in the head.
And I suddenly could feel that every cell in my body.
It held the fear of all humans on the planet.
We all do.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Linda Tellington Jones: we're, we're an accumulation.
It's not just the ancestors, just seven generations.
It's everybody.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Linda Tellington Jones: so I was doing a session to release
that just from knowing it.
And I, I went for a walk with Chris after, and I said, okay, so Chris, when we, when
we release these, this fear in the cells.
What's left?
Of course, it's love.
And that's where Jerry Jampolsky and his Center for Attitudinal
Healing comes in, because I've worked with him for many, many years.
The Center
Rupert Isaacson: for Attitudinal Healing.
Linda Tellington Jones: Center.
Rupert Isaacson: The sense of attitudinal healing.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah,
and this is something they put out, and it's like,
Joy comes with forgiveness.
This is, may every step you take be one of forgiveness.
It's the attitudinalhealing.
org.
He just died a couple of years ago.
I can't remember if he was close to 100, but I knew him very well.
And his wife, Diane Terenzioni.
And we did a workshop together in Australia for, for ourselves, for
for soul retrieval, our own souls.
And just this concept of forgiveness, it's, that is forgiving ourselves
when we make a mistake, forgiving others, you know, this whole concept.
You must know of Hooponopono, right?
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
But could you please explain that for our listeners?
Linda Tellington Jones: Yes.
And it's a, it's a Hawaiian prayer of forgiveness.
And actually, one of my very favorite books is a German book by, written
by Rupert Dupre, and anybody that's interested, go on YouTube, because he
has wonderful free talks all the time.
And the Hawaiian, it's four phrases, the basic, and it's really simple, and
it saved me in some amazing situations.
It's I'm sorry, or whatever it is.
Please forgive me.
Thank you.
Because the forgiveness is done.
And I love you.
And it's the I love you that stops most people because they think it's
only to love someone else but actually it's also just as hard for most people
to say I love ourselves because as western people we're taught that
it's you shouldn't love yourself.
It's kind of an interesting thing.
But, I tell you where I learned how to say that and mean it
in every person I look at.
whether there's a problem or not.
And it's, it's actually through a book called the Book of Ho'oponopono.
Let me spell it for you.
Okay.
Or do you have it?
You know it?
Rupert Isaacson: No, I'm, I'm, I'm writing down the four stages of the prayer first.
So I'm sorry for dot, dot, dot.
I'm sorry
Linda Tellington Jones: for whatever.
It doesn't matter.
Rupert Isaacson: Please forgive me.
Linda Tellington Jones: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: I love you.
And you can say this to yourself as well as to somebody else.
Linda Tellington Jones: Exactly.
For anything you do.
Or to a horse, or a dog, or something they do.
Now, the thing is
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, give us the strange Hawaiian name for this.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yes, it's capital H O, apostrophe, O P O
N O, and then repeat it again.
O P O N O.
Ho'oponopono.
Rupert Isaacson: Ho'oponopono.
Please, I'm sorry for blah.
Please forgive me.
Thank you.
Linda Tellington Jones: I love you.
And it's the I love you that stops most people because they
certainly can't love something they think we did something wrong.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes,
Linda Tellington Jones: and it's essential for our, our joy, actually.
And
Rupert Isaacson: do we need to make self forgiveness a practice if we're going to
even think about helping anybody else?
Linda Tellington Jones: Well, that would be a judgment on my part,
but I think that If you have any feeling of guilt, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: If you
Linda Tellington Jones: know that you've been doing the very best you
can, forgive whatever you've done.
I mean, Rupert, those of us who've worked with horses for many, many
years have done things to horses that we would never do today.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the beautiful thing is horses forgive us.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, they do.
Linda Tellington Jones: That's the thing.
And there's no reason to feel guilty because we were
only doing the best we could.
And but what I find most people can't do is say I love you to
themselves if they've made a mistake.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Well, we're because we're brought up to completely not do that.
That's drummed out of us so early that that's one of the most radical acts
of rebellion anyone can make is to say they love I love you to yourself.
That's a total disruption of our entire societal norm.
The church can't operate with that.
You know, I don't mean Christianity.
I don't mean, I don't mean spirituality.
I don't mean, I don't mean Christ.
I mean the church.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you can't operate with if people are going around saying they
love themselves all the time because then you don't need an intermediary
Between them and Christ or between them and God that they're all right.
So they don't need to pay you a tithe and you know, yeah
Linda Tellington Jones: How you can overcome this dear listener,
Rupert Isaacson: okay
Linda Tellington Jones: And I I would I wouldn't have known because you
know, like how do you forgive somebody who's done something horrendous to you?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm
Linda Tellington Jones: That's, quote, unforgivable, right?
And it's in, it's in the book of Ho'oponopono.
Rupert Isaacson: The book of Ho'oponopono.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah, and it's by Luke, L U C B O D A N, he's a M.
D.
And two others.
By Luke
Rupert Isaacson: Bodon.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
And it's Luke Bodon and another Bodon, I forget her name, I don't
know if it's wife or daughter.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.
Linda Tellington Jones: And a third one, so it's, the reason it's important
to know it's by three authors, because he's written many books,
Rupert Isaacson: and
Linda Tellington Jones: it's the one by three, and in it is the explanation that
I got from one of my Swiss friends who reads French, I was fluent in French.
She said that I love you is addressed to the divine consciousness
in every cell in the body.
It's to the divine within.
I can say that to anybody, no matter what they've done.
When you recognize that forgiveness is, it's necessary to
change our world and the world.
Rupert Isaacson: Wise words, Linda, and definitely words that we want to be
holding in our hearts and our heads and our guts while we're wandering around
Boris with ponies and people on them.
This, we have, we have passed the two hour mark.
All this leaves me is wanting more so there I would like to come back
to you with this And can we go back into equine assisted world with you?
in a few weeks and let's look at this whole concept of self disregard, let's say
and how we can begin to dance with this in a way that we can create healing and
joy, and then again how this might work in the equestrian context and in the You know
that we could just go so much deeper here and I haven't even asked you about tendons
and fitness and All these other things that we need to talk about too Which are
what I love about the conversations with you is that they go from the absolutely
practical like, you know If you touch like this or if you pay attention to this
ligament or you know if you pay attention to the fascia to of course the absolute
spiritual because how can you Separate one from the other because the cells
are the spirit the spirits are the cells and then back again And then you bring
it down to really useful techniques.
Okay, this circle and a half way of touching Sorry,
Linda Tellington Jones: a circle and a quarter.
Rupert Isaacson: A circle and a quarter.
Sorry a circle and a quarter moving the skin lightly and the Tarantula
pulling the plow and I know of many many other forms of tea touch which have
amazing effects on Horses and humans, so please let's Come back to this.
Linda Tellington Jones: Can we give your, your listeners like
the first book on forgiveness?
The Hawaiian Book of Forgiveness that I recommend is a German author.
Ulrich Dupre, D-U-P-R-E-E.
Rupert Isaacson: Do
Linda Tellington Jones: Dupre
Rupert Isaacson: Dupre.
DU like the French, D-U-P-R-E, Ulrich.
Dupre, yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: Two E's.
Two E's on the end.
Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: two E's Dupre.
Okay.
Ulrich Dupre.
Linda Tellington Jones: And then, and that's like a wonderful overview of the
work that will give you what you can make a huge difference in your, what's
Rupert Isaacson: the title of the book?
Linda Tellington Jones: Ho Ano.
Rupert Isaacson: Ho Ano, okay.
Yeah.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the subtitle, look here.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: Subtitle.
It's a little tiny book.
A little little book.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I see it.
Okay.
A small, A slim Volume.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
And it's the Hawaiian Forgiveness Ritual as the key to your life.
Life's Fulfillment.
Rupert Isaacson: Hawaiian forgiveness, ritual
as the key
to your life's.
Linda Tellington Jones: Yeah.
Fulfillment.
Rupert Isaacson: Fulfillment.
Brilliant.
Linda Tellington Jones: And the book of Ho Bono.
It's a Hawaiian practice of forgiveness and healing and
the, and it's, I always get it.
It's Luke, B-O-D-I-N,
Rupert Isaacson: Bodin.
Okay.
Linda Tellington Jones: And Natalie Bodin, lab boy
Rupert Isaacson: and Natalie Bodin, the book of hot opponent porn
Linda Tellington Jones: and John Garcia.
But you'll find it.
Three.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I've got my reading list and we'll pick it up When we reconvene on this because
now for listeners who want to know more about t touch, what do they do?
Where do they go?
Linda Tellington Jones: We're just in the process of modernizing our website.
So what we have now is just go to t touch.
com
Rupert Isaacson: t touch.
com.
Yeah easy
Linda Tellington Jones: Or, yeah, if you want to actually get a free
introduction to it, go to learn.
ttouch.
ca for Canada.
That's my sister Robin Hood.
Rupert Isaacson: I love that she's called Robin Hood.
Linda Tellington Jones: I know, my maiden name is Hood.
She's 15 years younger than I and works around the world like I do.
And I was able to, I named her.
She kept that when she married Feel Pretty.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Okay.
All I can say listeners is
we can all use mentors.
Every.
good thing that I do or have done has come from a mentor.
Linda is one of our primary mentors.
Don't do yourself out of the opportunity to be mentored by Linda Turlington Jones.
There are many books.
You can learn her stuff online, you'll see Just go on ttouch.com.
Linda Tellington Jones: It's also on YouTube.
We have stuff on under my right.
Rupert Isaacson: Just go down the rabbit hole and we'll be having Linda back on.
Also, if you want to know Linda's life story and how she arrived at all of
this, go across to our other podcast, live Free, ride Free, where we talk
about self-actualization, people living self-actualized lives, and.
She tells us her autobiography there and how all this happened because
it's good to have that background
Okay, so you'll be hearing more from Linda this show.
All right, Linda.
Thank you
Linda Tellington Jones: Until the next time.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Linda Tellington Jones: Hey Rupert made the force be with you.
Rupert Isaacson: Haha.
May it be with you, too
thank you for joining us.
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
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We also offer a horse training program and self-care program
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These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that
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