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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Here on Equine Assisted World.

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We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

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established in the equine assisted field.

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This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

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physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

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These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

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Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

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And please remember to
press, subscribe and share.

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Welcome back to equine assisted world
where we talk to people at the cutting

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edge of this rapidly developing field that
we're all involved in and interested in

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and fascinated by, how horses help humans
and how humans can help horses back.

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Assist.

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It's a very different world now,
the equine assisted world, to where

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it was a couple of decades ago.

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Twenty years ago, it was really
on the hippie margins still.

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And a lot of us who were in the field or
beginning in the field We're having to

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justify ourselves all the time, basically,
explain why we didn't suck constantly,

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which is very annoying and tiring.

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But, nonetheless, understandable when
you were dealing with mental health

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world that had no understanding about
natural animal based therapies, let

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alone movement in the brain, let alone
axons and dendrites and BDNF and oxytocin

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and all these things, which we now
know about almost in a mainstream way.

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But back then, only a few neuroscientists
here and there knew about.

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So, way back when that
was is still the case.

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There was a pioneering group and a
pioneering organization and a pioneering

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modality known to a lot of us as Igala.

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I'm lucky enough to have the founder of
Igala, Lynn Thomas, here with us, today.

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She's awesome.

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And she's going to talk to us not just
about Igala and how that evolved and what

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were the achievements were there, but also
about her two very exciting new ventures

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in the equine assisted world, arenas
for Change and Horses for Mental Health.

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We're all waiting with bated breath
to find out what you're up to, Lynn.

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So, Lynn thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

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Thank you, Rupert.

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Thanks for having me on, and
I love your introduction.

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I think that was a really great
description of what this journey has

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been like for the work that we all do.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

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It's it's it's we've all been through it.

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And now here we are, suddenly A bit
surprised, I think, that we're suddenly

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you know, insurance companies will now
pay for stuff that they laughed at,

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twenty years ago and that the neuroscience
and medical field has caught up and now

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does recognize very strongly the the
the work that we do, largely, I think,

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because a lot of them ended up having
kids personally themselves who ended up

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in our programs or, patients that ended
up in our programs, and then at a certain

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point, they couldn't ignore it anymore.

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But, yeah, whatever the
evolution, it's been positive.

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So, Lynn, I've talked too much already.

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Who are you, and how
did you get into this?

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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And I And just to say too, I do
agree it's really been a grassroots

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effort with all these programs
sacrificing and pioneering so much.

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But, yeah, my my as you
mentioned, my name is Lynn Thomas.

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I am a mental health professional,
licensed clinical social worker.

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And I like to share that my
background is not with horses at all.

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I grew up in the city.

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I didn't have Espoie.

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To horses.

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The most I'd ever done was girl scout
camp, horse camp for one week, and that

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was the extent of my, Exposure to that.

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So didn't even know that I
had an interest in horses.

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And I had an opportunity.

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I went to school, went to college, got
my degree my My bachelor's degree in

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psychology and trying to figure out
what I was gonna do because I had no

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idea what what I was gonna do with that.

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And I saw a little classified ad in the
college newspaper that said wilderness

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counselors wanted and a phone number.

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And I was like, I don't know what that is.

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I had never really backpacked.

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I had never done anything like that.

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I the most I've done was
car camping with my family.

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So I called up and and it turned
out to be this, like, survival

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kind of program for troubled youth
going through the deserts of Utah.

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I I live in Utah.

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So, and I was like, well,
this sounds interesting.

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So I embarked on a new journey in my life
that got me into that realm of nature, of

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Experiential learning of survival skills
and and the concept of not just talking,

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but doing And also challenging ourselves.

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We can get you know, I kinda got
into this, like, well, we don't

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really grow unless we're challenged.

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And so that kinda got me
on that path and journey.

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And then I years sometime later,
Uh, I left that wilderness program

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because you we live out there two
weeks at a time, have one week off.

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You're you're hiking around in
survival with troubled teens, and

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it's It's a high burnout rate.

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Let me just put it that way, but it was
very rewarding and decided I wanted to

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go back to school and get my master's
degree so I could be a therapist.

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And in the wilderness program, the
therapist could come in for one day and

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hang out and camp out if they wanted,
or they could go home if they want.

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And I was like, oh, this what I wanna do.

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So I went back to school
to be a therapist.

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Well, in the meanwhile, I ended
up working at a a a residential

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youth program on a ranch setting.

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And that's what got me
introduced to horses.

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And there, I said, Wow.

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The stuff with horses is really
powerful because I love what

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we do with the wilderness.

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Like, you really gotta be out there
for a while, but then in a one hour

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session with these horses, you see
these phenomenal changes happening.

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And so that's what got
me interested in it.

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That's where I was introduced to Greg
Kerstin, and That led on to a path.

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I went back to school with the
intention to go back to the wilderness

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program, be a therapist there.

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Well, while so I did that.

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Went back to the wilderness program.

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While I was in the wilderness
program, they said, hey.

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We don't want you to stay
in this wilderness part.

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We're starting this ranch
program, treatment boarding

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school in a ranch setting, and
we want you to move over there.

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And I was like, well, I
don't I don't know what okay.

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And it was just starting.

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The person who was running
it, it was really rough.

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There was five kids there.

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They were kinda running the place.

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And within a month, I was then
asked to become the executive

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director of that program.

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And, I was What's that?

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How old are you at this point?

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I was twenty two.

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I I was fresh out of college,
out of my master's program.

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They clearly

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Rupert Isaacson: had a lot of
other people they could draw prom.

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Right?

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

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I think it was one of those
situations where I was like, what?

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I and, actually, at the time, I
think I was, There weren't many

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women directors of treatment boarding
schools, but, also, I was, like,

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twenty two years old or twenty one.

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I can't remember now.

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But, Um, and at first, I was like, no.

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No.

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I don't I don't want to
this is not what I wanna do.

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And I was married at the time,
and my husband you gotta do this.

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This is an amazing opportunity.

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Okay.

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Fine.

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Well, I ended up running in
that program and And wanting it

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to revolve around the horses.

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It's on a ranch, wanting the
horses to be the primary focus.

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Why?

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Why

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Rupert Isaacson: With so little horse
experience and just one sort of exposure

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on a ranch with in a therapeutic setting.

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Why were you already at this point
convinced, um, that you wanted the

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whole thing to run around the horse?

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

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I mean, that's a great question.

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It was really that little exposure that
I had for the I think I was at that

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other program for a year, Or maybe a year
and a half, but it it was so powerful

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that I saw what the horses could do.

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And this ranch had horses, And so I
really felt strongly that I want that to

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be the main element of everything would
revolve and focus around the central.

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So there's school.

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There's other, recreational programming
because these kids live there.

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Right?

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And there's nature and all
that, but I felt so strongly.

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And And that's a good question.

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I mean, I think I've just
seen the power of it.

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Rupert Isaacson: What had
you seen out of interest?

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Because, I mean, people like
me, I'm a horse obsessive.

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I always was.

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So, So, of course, I'm gonna
revolve my life around horses

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because I want ponies in my life.

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You're coming from a different place.

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So what so you're obviously observant.

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What had you observed that was so
transformative in that one year that you

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were on that other ranch that made you
so sure that you wanted this new program

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to revolve entirely around horses despite
not having a horse background yourself.

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Lynn Thomas: I think one
was they're living beings.

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And so you can go out in the wilderness.

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You can do ropes courses, which
I did a lot of that, and they're

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not really reacting to you.

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And so I I saw these horses react
Or respond to these interactions,

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relationships with these with
these kids and their families when

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their families would come out.

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And it was that it was that
response that made such an impact.

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And, yeah, then people say,
well, why not other animals?

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Well, The horses respond in a
way that seems more authentic.

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They don't care if you're their friend.

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They don't they've got
their own thing going on.

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Like dogs or other animals, they tend
to well, maybe not cats, but they tend

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to, um, not have that level of dynamic
response that you see horses have.

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And I saw it through that relationship,
through that interaction, Have such

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feedback and have such meaning in
a safe way because you can talk to

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kids or talk to them and say, hey.

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It would be good if you change
your behaviors this way.

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But the horses give that
nonverbal feedback, like, I

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don't like what you're doing.

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And when it comes from An animal like
that and not from a human that has biases

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and agendas and and there's histories
with different humans in their past.

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But when it comes from a
horse, that seemed to impact.

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That seemed to have meaning, and they
wanted to have that relationship.

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They wanted to make it better.

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And so I think seeing those kind of
scenarios where I saw people change more

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rapidly in that kind of environment.

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So that And that's what motivated

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Rupert Isaacson: me.

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I've just written down these
two words, dynamic response.

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The dynamic response of the voice.

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This that's an intriguing, way to put it.

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Can you can you can you tell
us a bit more what you mean?

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Let's imagine you were not talking
to an audience of people who who were

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already sold on Equine assisted stuff.

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Dynamic response, it's effectively
immediate strong feedback.

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In what particular way?

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Because let's say, for
example, you worked with goats.

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I've worked with goats.

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If a goat doesn't like what you're
doing, there's some immediate feedback.

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They leave.

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And they leave pretty fast.

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If they really, really don't
like what you're doing, they'll

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butt you and then leave.

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So that's dynamic feedback.

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Obviously, a dog might run away, whine,
lie on the floor, show its belly, or bite

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you depending on what sort of dog it was.

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That's dynamic feedback.

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So what is it about the horse's
dynamic feedback that sold you.

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

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I think that's a really great
question because I've had

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really powerful experiences
too with other animals as well.

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And I think, one, when you were
when you were saying that, I was

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thinking, well, one, their size.

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Maybe the dynamicness of it is they're
bigger and the responses feel bigger.

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And Because they're bigger, there's they
can be more intimidating and can be scare.

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I mean, they could hurt us in a
maybe a a more A more dynamic way.

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But then at the same time,
there's an element of gentleness.

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Yeah.

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They are soft.

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They have these soft eyes, tend,
tend to have these soft eyes.

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And I think maybe because of our
evolutionary history with them too.

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There might be that connection with them.

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So I think when you ask that, it feels
bigger, Um, in a dynamic way because

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their responses feel more impactful.

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Maybe, like I said, their size, our
history with them, That fear draw.

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Like, I'm fear I'm fearful of them,
but I'm I'm also drawn towards them.

00:13:06.195 --> 00:13:06.675
As a They're

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Rupert Isaacson: iconic.

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They're beautiful.

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They're Yeah.

00:13:08.890 --> 00:13:09.210
Back to

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Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

00:13:09.770 --> 00:13:09.930
Yeah.

00:13:09.930 --> 00:13:10.250
Yeah.

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And I really do think I mean, they're die
I mean, being a prey animal, they really

00:13:14.810 --> 00:13:17.130
are more aware of their environment.

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I I think maybe them
potentially in other animals.

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And so I do feel like they have this
kind of way of sensing and Responding

00:13:25.370 --> 00:13:29.770
to people that might end up having
more meaning because as a human, I'm

00:13:29.770 --> 00:13:33.215
also maybe, have a traumatic ground.

00:13:33.215 --> 00:13:35.715
And I'm also maybe scared
of of my environment.

00:13:35.935 --> 00:13:36.255
Mhmm.

00:13:36.255 --> 00:13:40.255
And I also want connection and
have a herd like the horses have.

00:13:40.255 --> 00:13:45.390
And I think there's a lot of parallels
that horses have in their kind of

00:13:45.390 --> 00:13:50.545
just organic way of being, natural
way of being that That I don't think

00:13:50.545 --> 00:13:52.965
is as clear with other animals.

00:13:53.505 --> 00:13:56.600
Rupert Isaacson: And you have you
have observed all of this in that

00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.080
short year despite not really
having a background with horses.

00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:03.030
That's interesting to me because, it
takes a while, I think, for many people

00:14:03.030 --> 00:14:06.995
even when they're learning to ride and
they really want to engage with horses.

00:14:06.995 --> 00:14:09.335
It takes people a long time
to learn how to read horses.

00:14:10.265 --> 00:14:15.530
You must have a unusual
Series of Observation Skills.

00:14:15.750 --> 00:14:20.820
You also must have had good mentors,
presumably, on-site there to help

00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:22.340
you interpret what you were seeing.

00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:22.785
No?

00:14:22.945 --> 00:14:23.185
Well,

00:14:23.185 --> 00:14:24.225
Lynn Thomas: did you come Yeah.

00:14:24.225 --> 00:14:26.245
I mean, I think that's
definitely the case.

00:14:26.385 --> 00:14:29.505
And, um, you're right.

00:14:29.505 --> 00:14:34.090
I mean, I think the way my mind
works, I'm looking as a third I'm

00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:38.030
looking for what's gonna help our
clients in the best way I can find.

00:14:38.810 --> 00:14:42.775
And I had experienced different
things, Different environments

00:14:43.715 --> 00:14:48.035
and had been working with troubled
teens since I was eighteen kinda

00:14:48.035 --> 00:14:49.895
thing too in different capacities.

00:14:50.195 --> 00:14:56.780
And I I just I think I just saw the teens
respond and the families respond to horses

00:14:56.780 --> 00:14:58.800
in a way I hadn't seen in other places.

00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:00.940
So that captured me.

00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:04.505
And And then when I had the opportunity
to run this program and kinda turn it

00:15:04.505 --> 00:15:07.945
into the program, I'm so I had enough
experience working with troubled teens

00:15:07.945 --> 00:15:12.790
that I knew How to create a program to
support troubled teens in their growth.

00:15:13.730 --> 00:15:19.455
And involving the horse is just
like, oh, I could see the The power

00:15:19.455 --> 00:15:21.055
of it, and I wanted to do more.

00:15:21.055 --> 00:15:22.995
I wanted to offer more of it.

00:15:23.775 --> 00:15:28.840
And so at that time, like you said,
this wasn't There were other programs

00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:32.600
out there, and it was mostly teaching
horsemanship and and that kind of thing.

00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.040
So, I mentioned cofounded the
gala with with Greg Kirson.

00:15:36.040 --> 00:15:39.080
So we haven't cofounded the gala
yet, but I actually had worked

00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:40.360
with him at that other program.

00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:45.775
So I contacted him And invited him to
come to where what I was doing now.

00:15:45.835 --> 00:15:47.615
He was a horse, presumably.

00:15:47.675 --> 00:15:47.755
Yeah.

00:15:47.755 --> 00:15:48.655
And he's a horseman.

00:15:48.795 --> 00:15:49.115
Yeah.

00:15:49.115 --> 00:15:52.370
And so that and he had been working
Working a lot with troubled teens

00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:57.410
too and doing kinda more the, I
would say, ropes course concept,

00:15:57.410 --> 00:16:02.165
the experiential learning concept of
creating problem solving activities.

00:16:03.025 --> 00:16:07.025
And through that, you learn
things about yourself, and you get

00:16:07.025 --> 00:16:09.960
confidence Because you overcome
the problems and find solutions.

00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.260
So it was setting up more
activities like that.

00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:20.345
That, again, I think, was novel at the
time maybe, um, whereas most was, again,

00:16:20.345 --> 00:16:24.680
teaching basic horse or not basic,
but teaching horsemanship, Teaching

00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:29.480
writing and involving and doing maybe
competitive equestrian experiences.

00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:35.215
So I ended up I was in this
program, running this program, and

00:16:35.215 --> 00:16:37.155
then ended up getting pregnant.

00:16:37.775 --> 00:16:41.370
And it was one of those
life Scenarios where okay.

00:16:41.370 --> 00:16:42.010
What do I do?

00:16:42.010 --> 00:16:43.610
Do I stay do I stay working?

00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:46.170
Because I was working probably eighty hour
weeks when you're working residential,

00:16:46.170 --> 00:16:48.910
and then they had put me over the
wilderness program by this time too.

00:16:49.285 --> 00:16:53.865
So the programs were doing
well, and I was like, oh, okay.

00:16:53.925 --> 00:16:54.905
Do I stay?

00:16:55.765 --> 00:16:57.750
Do I You know, what do I do?

00:16:57.750 --> 00:17:02.950
And then I found out and I was planning
on I'm gonna I'm gonna keep working.

00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:03.590
I'm gonna stay.

00:17:03.590 --> 00:17:05.450
And then I found out I was having twins.

00:17:06.745 --> 00:17:08.525
And I was like, oh.

00:17:09.145 --> 00:17:11.065
And I said, okay.

00:17:11.065 --> 00:17:14.445
That's I don't think I can
do an eighty hour work week

00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:16.750
And also take care of twins.

00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:20.690
That kinda put me over the edge
of, okay, maybe I I need to leave.

00:17:22.335 --> 00:17:23.775
And so I did.

00:17:23.775 --> 00:17:28.175
I decided that I needed to stay home
and take care of the twins, and that's

00:17:28.175 --> 00:17:33.340
where it was because of that That
talking with Greg, and we're like he was

00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:34.940
like, I'd like to train other people.

00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:35.820
Like, that's great.

00:17:35.820 --> 00:17:38.620
And because I'm not doing this eighty
hour week, I'm staying at home.

00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:40.320
I need a hobby on the side.

00:17:41.725 --> 00:17:42.225
Sure.

00:17:42.445 --> 00:17:45.265
Let's start doing training
other professionals.

00:17:45.485 --> 00:17:49.030
And like you said, back then, that
was I I think I'm trying to remember.

00:17:49.030 --> 00:17:53.450
We did our first training in nineteen
ninety seven or nineteen ninety eight

00:17:54.390 --> 00:17:58.985
and decided to formally start eGala,
Equine Assisted Growth and Learning

00:17:58.985 --> 00:18:03.385
Association, as a nonprofit organization
to train professionals how to do this.

00:18:03.385 --> 00:18:07.520
There really wasn't much Out there
at the time, there was, EFMA, which

00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:12.580
was a subsection of what was back
then called NARA, now called PATH.

00:18:13.565 --> 00:18:14.845
I know Barbara Rector.

00:18:14.845 --> 00:18:17.645
I mean, there were kind of things
kinda happening out there, but

00:18:17.645 --> 00:18:19.405
it really wasn't a whole lot.

00:18:19.405 --> 00:18:24.850
So it was kinda starting this new niche
That as I I really did think it was

00:18:24.850 --> 00:18:26.930
gonna be a small hobby on the side.

00:18:26.930 --> 00:18:32.125
I didn't expect there to be
that much time, Um, to it.

00:18:32.125 --> 00:18:39.260
But as you can see, that journey, I
was pleasantly surprised that, See,

00:18:39.260 --> 00:18:44.400
there's a lot of people interested in
incorporating horses for mental health.

00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:49.435
So, within a year so we formally
started Yigal in nineteen ninety nine.

00:18:49.435 --> 00:18:53.995
Within a year, it grew, and
I, once again, was working.

00:18:53.995 --> 00:18:59.570
Every time I could Every time the
twins were sleeping, I I was working.

00:18:59.710 --> 00:19:00.670
I look back now.

00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:04.530
I was much younger than, obviously, so
I was like, how on earth did I do that?

00:19:05.245 --> 00:19:07.775
But we we really started
getting the word out there.

00:19:07.775 --> 00:19:14.100
And and, ultimately, I feel that
my lack of background in horses was

00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:18.850
one of the strengths to that because
trying to get credibility in the mental

00:19:18.850 --> 00:19:22.095
health community, especially back
Then as you said, we were looked at

00:19:22.095 --> 00:19:24.755
as very alternative, very out there.

00:19:27.350 --> 00:19:31.270
And so I felt like I could speak the
language to people who knew nothing

00:19:31.270 --> 00:19:34.525
about horses, who had no interest
in horses, and what did they and And

00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:37.885
being a mental health professional,
what did they need to hear to start

00:19:37.885 --> 00:19:40.785
being open to this kind of concept?

00:19:40.845 --> 00:19:45.870
So we're really focused our marketing
and our Efforts to kinda get out there

00:19:45.870 --> 00:19:50.350
in the mental health world, and I feel
like that was a great kind of beginning

00:19:50.350 --> 00:19:55.555
of of getting that credibility, of
building that awareness, And something

00:19:55.555 --> 00:19:59.414
that's not associated with horses and
and something that looked at us as crazy.

00:19:59.555 --> 00:19:59.794
So

00:20:00.115 --> 00:20:04.510
Rupert Isaacson: But if you now if you
were bootstrapping something at age twelve

00:20:04.510 --> 00:20:10.770
with so mum and and married and so on.

00:20:12.245 --> 00:20:17.525
I presume that you you you had to some
some advantages and that you had this

00:20:17.525 --> 00:20:22.510
ranch at your disposal with the horses at
your disposal so that you could Use that.

00:20:22.510 --> 00:20:24.690
Did were you doing your
initial trainings from there?

00:20:24.990 --> 00:20:26.610
And then you talked about marketing.

00:20:27.230 --> 00:20:28.930
We all know marketing's very expensive.

00:20:29.660 --> 00:20:39.160
So How were you able to fund so young
and so raw, um, that kind of machine

00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:40.520
because that's that's not easy.

00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:43.719
We know I mean, there's lots of people
who've been doing things for twenty,

00:20:43.719 --> 00:20:47.080
thirty years who haven't the budget
for that or haven't cracked that.

00:20:47.080 --> 00:20:50.285
What what what What was it
that made that possible?

00:20:52.344 --> 00:20:55.890
Lynn Thomas: Well, by this point,
I'd left that, A program I was

00:20:55.890 --> 00:20:58.230
directing, became a stay at home mom.

00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:01.940
My husband at that time was
starting a new business too

00:21:02.205 --> 00:21:03.825
As an a real estate appraiser.

00:21:04.285 --> 00:21:09.085
And so that we didn't really have
money coming in, and it was one of

00:21:09.085 --> 00:21:11.140
those leaps of faith, you could say.

00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:15.560
So I think anybody who's an entrepreneur
might be able to relate somewhat.

00:21:15.940 --> 00:21:17.460
So what funded it?

00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:22.895
My Our credit cards, that's what and I do
not I'm not promoting that as a good idea.

00:21:22.955 --> 00:21:28.190
I'm just saying that, Um, I yeah.

00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:33.415
We played that game of every little bit
that came in went Back into the business.

00:21:33.475 --> 00:21:40.550
And then yeah, my my personal credit cards
got bigger and bigger and bigger, the debt

00:21:40.550 --> 00:21:42.310
on them, but played that game of, okay.

00:21:42.310 --> 00:21:44.490
I'm paying this credit
card with that credit card.

00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:50.805
And that's literally how it started and
Why it kinda kept going for a while there

00:21:50.805 --> 00:21:52.885
till we could start paying those off.

00:21:52.885 --> 00:21:55.205
I remember finally being able to pay.

00:21:55.205 --> 00:22:02.789
That was, oh, Three years, I think,
into it that I was finally able we

00:22:02.789 --> 00:22:06.695
were bringing in enough money that I
could at least cover that that debt

00:22:06.695 --> 00:22:08.875
that had it had taken to get it going.

00:22:09.735 --> 00:22:13.950
So I and I will say the other
benefit at that time, That's when

00:22:13.950 --> 00:22:19.090
the Internet was really kinda
starting to gain some traction.

00:22:19.390 --> 00:22:19.710
Mhmm.

00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:22.370
It was still very, very slow
Internet, dial up Internet.

00:22:23.045 --> 00:22:27.395
But it was enough where, as a
small business entrepreneur, you

00:22:27.395 --> 00:22:30.370
were able to have a way to get the
word out there that didn't cost

00:22:30.770 --> 00:22:32.550
Thousands and thousands of dollars.

00:22:32.850 --> 00:22:36.690
And we spent some money putting in some
little ads in, like, horse and rider

00:22:36.690 --> 00:22:43.245
and, American hort practical horsemen
and, some of those kind of magazines

00:22:43.465 --> 00:22:45.405
that helped us get the word out too.

00:22:45.785 --> 00:22:49.899
And then That the Internet
really started playing a role

00:22:49.899 --> 00:22:51.600
in helping us spread the word.

00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:55.504
So that was a very fortunate
timing and a great gift Aquinas.

00:22:55.585 --> 00:22:57.745
That way to get exposure to the world.

00:22:58.065 --> 00:23:01.585
Rupert Isaacson: Awash with five
bazillion people all offering their stuff.

00:23:01.585 --> 00:23:03.500
It was, yeah, it was, Yeah.

00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:07.820
And then presumably then the ranch as
well you were were you able to run the

00:23:07.820 --> 00:23:12.105
trainings there so that you The cost
of those horses and that sort of thing

00:23:12.105 --> 00:23:13.805
were taken care of by the institution.

00:23:14.265 --> 00:23:18.505
Presumably, you weren't having to, in
addition to getting this new thing up

00:23:18.505 --> 00:23:22.060
and run, also, uh, workout the hay belt.

00:23:22.360 --> 00:23:23.740
Presumably, all were you?

00:23:24.360 --> 00:23:24.840
Yeah.

00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:29.665
Lynn Thomas: So, at that time,
Then Greg and I cofounded that.

00:23:30.045 --> 00:23:34.445
He had moved up to the area
I was in, and we literally he

00:23:34.445 --> 00:23:36.225
had one horse and a backyard.

00:23:36.770 --> 00:23:39.090
That's where we so we were
doing a private practice.

00:23:39.090 --> 00:23:41.510
I was doing some, again,
also that on the side.

00:23:41.650 --> 00:23:44.260
We're doing some sessions
worked with youth corrections.

00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:44.800
Okay.

00:23:44.800 --> 00:23:45.119
So this

00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.325
Rupert Isaacson: is no
longer at the original app.

00:23:47.325 --> 00:23:47.485
Right.

00:23:47.485 --> 00:23:47.645
And

00:23:47.645 --> 00:23:50.445
Lynn Thomas: this was no longer
at that nice corporate on Yahoo.

00:23:50.445 --> 00:23:54.305
So That that was run by a nice,
well funded corporate entity.

00:23:55.450 --> 00:24:00.270
And so we had that going, but we went the
route of people hosting the trainings.

00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:04.010
So as we got a training, people host
it, so they provided their facility.

00:24:04.010 --> 00:24:05.335
They provided their horses.

00:24:05.335 --> 00:24:12.430
And so, I mean, I think that first
year, um, Nineteen ninety nine,

00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:18.350
we did six trainings, which was
actually better than I thought.

00:24:18.350 --> 00:24:20.925
And I kinda thought, like, Like,
that's all we would be doing in a

00:24:20.925 --> 00:24:23.025
year was six trainings in a year.

00:24:24.075 --> 00:24:29.810
iT ultimately grew later And years to
like, we were doing, like, eighty Yeah.

00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:31.070
Trainings a year.

00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:33.740
So you can kinda see the
growth of what happened.

00:24:34.265 --> 00:24:38.345
And it didn't take that long to get there
back then, like I said, a few years.

00:24:38.645 --> 00:24:41.075
And so, yeah, that's how it started.

00:24:41.075 --> 00:24:45.240
And that's why I tell people, you
even with a if you wanna get a program

00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:51.055
started, we started with a one horse
in a backyard, not even a proper arena.

00:24:51.275 --> 00:24:51.775
Yeah.

00:24:52.105 --> 00:24:56.985
So it it was And because of our
our approach wasn't mounted work,

00:24:56.985 --> 00:25:00.610
it was Primarily on the ground and
later became all on the ground.

00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:03.190
We used to do some mounted
back in the beginning days.

00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:05.985
onE horse Would be okay.

00:25:05.985 --> 00:25:07.824
And we didn't have that
many clients either to worry

00:25:07.824 --> 00:25:08.944
about the horse burning out.

00:25:08.944 --> 00:25:09.184
So

00:25:09.424 --> 00:25:11.265
Rupert Isaacson: What became
of that horse out of interest?

00:25:11.265 --> 00:25:12.064
Who was that horse?

00:25:12.064 --> 00:25:13.845
Did that horse have an
interesting personality?

00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:20.599
Lynn Thomas: I am trying to remember
if that was I mean, jazz is the

00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:24.944
course that has the most Memory for
me, I don't it wasn't jazz, though.

00:25:24.944 --> 00:25:27.524
And now I'm trying to
remember what that horse was.

00:25:28.064 --> 00:25:34.569
Chief anyway anyway, he was a quarter
horse, And most of the horses that

00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:38.509
end up getting were quarter horses
and, yeah, great personalities.

00:25:41.344 --> 00:25:41.584
Yeah.

00:25:41.584 --> 00:25:43.104
Rupert Isaacson: Dynamic
feedback is their thing

00:25:43.104 --> 00:25:43.664
Lynn Thomas: for sure.

00:25:43.664 --> 00:25:44.704
Very dynamic feel.

00:25:44.704 --> 00:25:45.824
And I'll share a story with you.

00:25:45.824 --> 00:25:49.844
I don't know if now is the right
time of one of the more prominent

00:25:50.064 --> 00:25:52.849
stories that It's not with clients.

00:25:52.849 --> 00:25:53.909
It's with practitioners.

00:25:54.769 --> 00:25:58.229
That kind of really impacted
my view about horses.

00:25:59.679 --> 00:26:01.905
sO Maybe.

00:26:01.905 --> 00:26:04.625
I don't know when that
time will be, but alright.

00:26:04.625 --> 00:26:05.345
It's the teaser.

00:26:05.345 --> 00:26:05.825
I said the

00:26:05.825 --> 00:26:06.325
Rupert Isaacson: teaser.

00:26:07.265 --> 00:26:07.665
Alright.

00:26:07.665 --> 00:26:08.965
Well, we're all teased.

00:26:09.030 --> 00:26:09.530
Okay.

00:26:11.109 --> 00:26:12.709
Tell it if you if you feel you can.

00:26:12.709 --> 00:26:14.070
If you feel not, we'll

00:26:14.070 --> 00:26:14.550
Lynn Thomas: skip.

00:26:14.550 --> 00:26:14.869
No.

00:26:14.869 --> 00:26:19.104
I This is kinda one of the things that
impacted me and my view of horses.

00:26:19.645 --> 00:26:25.680
So there's a horse named Jazz a
beautiful gray, , speckled gray.

00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:32.645
And, yeah, he he was this horse
that, Like, when kids will walk in

00:26:32.645 --> 00:26:34.565
and and they would like, I'm tough.

00:26:34.565 --> 00:26:35.385
I'm cool.

00:26:36.005 --> 00:26:40.930
He put his ears straight back And
chase them right out of the arena.

00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:41.490
Really?

00:26:42.030 --> 00:26:48.735
And he I mean, ultimately, yeah, he just
didn't like any double messages At all.

00:26:48.735 --> 00:26:51.935
If you were not in if you were
not congruent with what you felt

00:26:51.935 --> 00:26:55.295
inside to what that mask was that
you had on the outside, he just

00:26:55.295 --> 00:26:56.815
was like, I'm gonna kick at you.

00:26:56.815 --> 00:27:02.360
I'm gonna, like I mean, he He'd do all
sorts of dynamic nonverbal reactions to

00:27:02.360 --> 00:27:08.685
that, and you really had to be completely
congruent For him to want to interact with

00:27:08.685 --> 00:27:09.185
Rupert Isaacson: you.

00:27:09.565 --> 00:27:10.065
Interesting.

00:27:10.845 --> 00:27:12.605
And you didn't select him because of that.

00:27:12.605 --> 00:27:13.725
He just he just

00:27:13.884 --> 00:27:14.124
Lynn Thomas: No.

00:27:14.124 --> 00:27:17.790
It just emerged as his personality,
which was really awesome.

00:27:17.850 --> 00:27:22.090
And, well, one time we were
doing a training, and we were

00:27:22.090 --> 00:27:23.550
doing stuff in the round pen.

00:27:24.265 --> 00:27:28.665
And this was with a group of
practitioners, many who are horse

00:27:28.665 --> 00:27:31.625
trainers or self proclaimed horse
trainers or whatever, but, have horse

00:27:31.625 --> 00:27:33.090
background and horse Experience.

00:27:33.470 --> 00:27:36.509
And they were just gonna do back then,
we were doing some round pen stuff

00:27:36.509 --> 00:27:41.795
and what we did, and they would go
in there with Jazz and just, Yeah.

00:27:41.795 --> 00:27:45.955
Try to do what they do as as
experienced horse people and

00:27:45.955 --> 00:27:47.315
get the horse to move around.

00:27:47.315 --> 00:27:53.630
And he would just, Uh, ears back,
turn his butt, do the little kick

00:27:53.630 --> 00:27:58.655
ups, um, and just Chase them out
too, which was, like, amazing.

00:27:59.035 --> 00:28:03.145
But, anyway there was a a person
there at our training, a mental health

00:28:03.145 --> 00:28:05.210
professional, and I had known him.

00:28:05.270 --> 00:28:07.289
He works with troubled youth.

00:28:07.590 --> 00:28:08.650
Really good counselor.

00:28:09.670 --> 00:28:10.870
Very green in the horse world.

00:28:10.870 --> 00:28:13.210
Really doesn't have much
horse experience at all.

00:28:13.795 --> 00:28:16.855
And he went in that round pen,
and jazz just start going around.

00:28:18.195 --> 00:28:22.610
And that was one of those moments
that I was, first of all, in awe of,

00:28:22.610 --> 00:28:28.130
but second of all, that realization
of how much horses can pick up on

00:28:28.130 --> 00:28:31.665
things, and it's not always our book
knowledge, and it's not to minimize the

00:28:31.665 --> 00:28:38.165
importance of having that knowledge of
of an expertise working with horses.

00:28:39.250 --> 00:28:43.490
And this horse, I guess, was
just so sensitive and so, I

00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:44.790
don't know, his personality.

00:28:44.850 --> 00:28:48.710
But, anyway, I was just amazed
by what they pick up on.

00:28:49.295 --> 00:28:53.394
And this was you know, he picked
up on that guy's personality

00:28:54.575 --> 00:28:57.615
and was not I guess he wasn't a
threat maybe the way he came in.

00:28:57.615 --> 00:29:00.280
I don't now, but he's also
really good with people.

00:29:01.540 --> 00:29:01.940
So

00:29:02.100 --> 00:29:02.500
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

00:29:02.500 --> 00:29:04.440
So you you evolve Igala.

00:29:04.820 --> 00:29:08.555
What If you were you know, let's
say I didn't know anything about

00:29:09.335 --> 00:29:11.995
equine therapy stuff at all.

00:29:12.534 --> 00:29:14.360
What did Igala do?

00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:16.060
What does igartner do?

00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:20.280
Lynn Thomas: As far as the actual models

00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:20.680
Rupert Isaacson: of Yeah.

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:21.800
What is it set out to do?

00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:24.220
What's what's the purpose,
and how does it do it?

00:29:24.825 --> 00:29:25.465
So I think,

00:29:25.825 --> 00:29:28.865
Lynn Thomas: One of the things that we
were getting interest from the mental

00:29:28.865 --> 00:29:32.725
health community and and starting to get
more credibility is we set standards.

00:29:33.370 --> 00:29:36.570
And the standards are not just
about how to be with horses.

00:29:36.570 --> 00:29:38.810
The standards were about for
the mental health community.

00:29:38.810 --> 00:29:44.144
So for instance, we required The team
of a mental health professional and

00:29:44.144 --> 00:29:48.840
an equine specialist, and both had to
have certain minimum qualifications in

00:29:48.840 --> 00:29:51.240
their their areas of scopes of practice.

00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:55.580
So by requiring that a mental
health professional is always there.

00:29:56.145 --> 00:30:00.325
We were very, very clear that we
are doing a mental health service.

00:30:00.545 --> 00:30:02.945
This is not equine whatever.

00:30:02.945 --> 00:30:05.612
We're doing a mental health service,
and we're involving Aquinas.

00:30:05.875 --> 00:30:06.401
In that.

00:30:06.401 --> 00:30:07.977
So being very clear about that.

00:30:07.977 --> 00:30:11.920
We were we at first, we did do
some mounted stuff I mentioned.

00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.165
Later, we became all on the ground,
and there Couple of reasons.

00:30:15.165 --> 00:30:18.845
One was because we saw the value of
that connection with the horses while

00:30:18.845 --> 00:30:21.825
you're on the ground where horses can
be maybe more authentically themselves

00:30:22.360 --> 00:30:25.659
And not to say again, there are
wonderful benefits with riding too,

00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:28.380
but the other thing was perception.

00:30:29.545 --> 00:30:33.465
When you would say we're involving horses,
the immediate thing was, oh, that's nice.

00:30:33.465 --> 00:30:34.284
That's recreation.

00:30:34.425 --> 00:30:35.725
How nice to do that.

00:30:35.784 --> 00:30:36.284
Right?

00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:42.580
When we talked about doing stuff on the
ground, it kinda helped, I think, that

00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:46.600
perception of, well, maybe this is a
little bit different than recreation.

00:30:48.195 --> 00:30:50.905
And so, I think that helped as well.

00:30:51.555 --> 00:30:54.355
anD then the other thing that
we did was too was we were clear

00:30:54.355 --> 00:30:55.829
we're not Teaching horsemanship.

00:30:56.289 --> 00:31:00.089
Now, again, clients may we would learn
a lot about horses along the way, but

00:31:00.089 --> 00:31:01.650
I think, again, we were very clear.

00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:06.275
We're setting up we're structuring
sessions in a way That's deliberate

00:31:06.275 --> 00:31:12.615
to meet treatment goals, and learning
about horses is not our objective.

00:31:13.860 --> 00:31:18.440
So I think, again, getting that message
out there was also very helpful.

00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:22.280
And and then we did things with the horses
that didn't look like normal horsemanship.

00:31:22.595 --> 00:31:26.315
And, actually, later, we even
started many several years later,

00:31:26.315 --> 00:31:27.355
we even started encouraging.

00:31:27.355 --> 00:31:28.715
Don't even use horsemanship tools.

00:31:28.715 --> 00:31:29.595
Don't use halters.

00:31:29.595 --> 00:31:31.530
Don't Use leader ropes.

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:35.080
Get all that out of the space,
again, partly for perception

00:31:35.860 --> 00:31:37.160
that this is different.

00:31:37.875 --> 00:31:40.435
This is not your typical type
of thing that you think of

00:31:40.435 --> 00:31:41.315
when you think of horses.

00:31:41.315 --> 00:31:45.475
And so I think that was part of our
messaging that was getting maybe some

00:31:45.475 --> 00:31:50.350
kinda like, Oh, maybe this is something
a little different and and really being

00:31:50.350 --> 00:31:52.450
clear about these are professionals.

00:31:52.590 --> 00:31:53.995
These are mental health professionals.

00:31:54.155 --> 00:31:54.555
Nationals.

00:31:54.555 --> 00:31:57.355
They're doing what they would do
in an office, but they're doing

00:31:57.355 --> 00:32:00.575
it in this different environment
that has these additional benefits.

00:32:01.275 --> 00:32:01.515
So

00:32:03.190 --> 00:32:03.690
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:32:03.830 --> 00:32:08.680
So I I I begin to understand
more now about the Agala model.

00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:14.355
That's very it's very astute of you guys
to to address, I think, upfront that

00:32:14.495 --> 00:32:19.350
people would regard it as recreation and
wouldn't take it seriously unless there

00:32:19.350 --> 00:32:21.450
was a mental health professional involved.

00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:25.590
Of course, that, I guess, to some
degree, is a limiting factor too

00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:30.695
because unless you can find that mental
health Professional to work with.

00:32:30.695 --> 00:32:33.115
You then wouldn't be able to
do the program, I presume.

00:32:34.485 --> 00:32:38.950
What so what how did did you help
people or mentor people to say, Okay.

00:32:38.950 --> 00:32:39.910
You're a horse person.

00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:43.270
You want to do this stuff, but
you're gonna need to find a mental

00:32:43.270 --> 00:32:44.890
health professional to work with.

00:32:45.350 --> 00:32:47.815
Here is the ABC of how
you Do that or find that?

00:32:47.815 --> 00:32:50.375
Would or did people just have to
hunt it up themselves and then

00:32:50.375 --> 00:32:51.915
show up together for a training?

00:32:52.215 --> 00:32:53.815
How how how did how did it work?

00:32:53.815 --> 00:32:57.080
Because it's It's a relatively tall order,
I think, for a lot of homeless people

00:32:57.140 --> 00:33:02.180
that don't exist in any kind of mental
health professional world to team up with

00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:03.800
those people, particularly back then.

00:33:05.035 --> 00:33:05.355
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

00:33:05.355 --> 00:33:08.235
In fact, when we first started,
I would say I don't know.

00:33:08.235 --> 00:33:11.035
Just get but probably at least
ninety percent of our membership

00:33:11.035 --> 00:33:12.335
were equine professionals.

00:33:12.970 --> 00:33:13.290
Okay.

00:33:13.290 --> 00:33:15.070
And ten percent more mental health.

00:33:15.210 --> 00:33:16.250
So you're absolutely right.

00:33:16.250 --> 00:33:18.110
It was starting to get that interest.

00:33:18.890 --> 00:33:21.555
And then the next Step was like
you said, it was usually mental

00:33:21.555 --> 00:33:24.515
health professionals that were also
horse professionals that they had

00:33:24.515 --> 00:33:26.115
experience with horses and background.

00:33:26.115 --> 00:33:29.190
So then they started, oh Oh, this exists?

00:33:29.330 --> 00:33:32.610
I can include both my
interests into one thing?

00:33:32.610 --> 00:33:33.510
This is amazing.

00:33:34.050 --> 00:33:37.830
And so we kinda started the
next step was attracting those

00:33:38.115 --> 00:33:39.095
Mental health professionals.

00:33:39.795 --> 00:33:44.295
And then, really, I think it became more
that broader awareness, more word-of-mouth

00:33:45.395 --> 00:33:49.520
that started to introduce, And we were
presenting it that I'd present at mental

00:33:49.520 --> 00:33:53.860
health conferences and and as well as
other programs would and practitioners.

00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.585
But then it started getting that
is peaking that interest of people

00:33:57.585 --> 00:33:58.997
who don't have horse experience.

00:33:58.997 --> 00:34:01.257
And we would say straight
out on materials.

00:34:01.257 --> 00:34:02.670
You don't need horse experience.

00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:07.150
You need to work with an equine specialist
that has horse experience, but you don't.

00:34:07.150 --> 00:34:10.190
Now back then too, I think there
was some criticism about that.

00:34:10.190 --> 00:34:12.955
Like, everybody should have that
horse knowledge, and I I agree.

00:34:12.955 --> 00:34:14.395
You do need to have some.

00:34:14.395 --> 00:34:20.690
But to get the the feet in the door, um,
so we started then these mental health

00:34:20.690 --> 00:34:22.850
professionals that had zero like me.

00:34:22.850 --> 00:34:24.550
I had no background with horses.

00:34:25.010 --> 00:34:27.090
I had no interest in it, and I
would share that straight out.

00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:28.630
I don't have a background with horses.

00:34:29.145 --> 00:34:32.185
I have no experience with
that, but here's why I do it.

00:34:32.185 --> 00:34:32.425
Mhmm.

00:34:32.425 --> 00:34:35.545
As a mental health professional,
I see our clients change in ways

00:34:35.545 --> 00:34:37.005
that I don't see in the office.

00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:41.690
And that's very rewarding as a
mental health professional to

00:34:41.690 --> 00:34:42.990
know you're making a difference.

00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:43.530
Mhmm.

00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:48.385
And so I think that it did take
some time, but it you know, I think

00:34:48.385 --> 00:34:55.570
within probably four four years,
For sure, we were had probably equal

00:34:55.570 --> 00:34:59.250
equine specialists and mental health
professionals in in the membership.

00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:01.650
And then it became even more mental
health professionals because we had the

00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:04.975
mental Professionals that also had Equine
and then mental health professionals

00:35:04.975 --> 00:35:09.375
know Equine, and it actually ended up
becoming, I would say, the majority of our

00:35:09.375 --> 00:35:11.235
membership ended up being mental health.

00:35:11.600 --> 00:35:15.460
So that was that progression
of getting that word out there.

00:35:15.680 --> 00:35:18.660
Rupert Isaacson: Now we all know the
dangers involved in working with horses.

00:35:20.115 --> 00:35:20.355
Jazz.

00:35:20.355 --> 00:35:22.215
Obviously, showed you some of those.

00:35:22.515 --> 00:35:24.675
I presume he never
actually did nail anybody.

00:35:24.675 --> 00:35:28.790
I presume it was mostly mock
charges rather than actually putting

00:35:28.790 --> 00:35:31.270
someone on the ground and kneeling
on them or or that sort of thing.

00:35:31.270 --> 00:35:35.110
So, and, of course, that we know that's
what horses mostly do, but, nonetheless,

00:35:35.110 --> 00:35:36.570
it's an it's a dangerous thing.

00:35:37.265 --> 00:35:43.525
How could you, without horse experience,
discern whether somebody truly had

00:35:43.905 --> 00:35:47.610
enough horse experience or the right
horse experience to be able to do

00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:51.450
this work professionally and safely
because this is one of the hard

00:35:51.450 --> 00:35:53.630
things as as all the listeners know.

00:35:54.245 --> 00:35:57.305
In the world of horses, it's
such a specific knowledge set.

00:35:57.765 --> 00:36:03.800
And there are a lot of people, sadly, who
claim to have more knowledge than they do.

00:36:04.370 --> 00:36:08.375
And we all know that it's something
that real knowledge with horses, Really

00:36:08.375 --> 00:36:12.025
being able to keep people safe around
horses takes decades, to to acquire.

00:36:12.565 --> 00:36:17.990
So how could you at that early stage
and then how could you help mental

00:36:17.990 --> 00:36:20.870
health people with no equine background.

00:36:20.870 --> 00:36:23.510
How could you help them discern
who were the right equine

00:36:23.510 --> 00:36:24.890
professionals to work with?

00:36:25.945 --> 00:36:28.905
Lynn Thomas: I, yeah, I mean,
that's such a great question, and

00:36:28.905 --> 00:36:31.085
I think it's the ongoing challenge.

00:36:31.815 --> 00:36:36.220
And And I think it's still this way,
but back then too, especially yeah.

00:36:36.220 --> 00:36:39.340
There's no nothing standardized
in the equine industry.

00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:39.660
Right?

00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:41.260
And there's no one USA.

00:36:41.260 --> 00:36:41.580
No.

00:36:41.580 --> 00:36:42.045
Yeah.

00:36:42.125 --> 00:36:42.525
Yeah.

00:36:42.525 --> 00:36:47.725
And there's no one, uh, like I said,
there's so many different knowledge bases

00:36:47.725 --> 00:36:51.770
you could have and routes you could go
in your horse experience and journey.

00:36:51.770 --> 00:36:56.300
So, we ended up having, membership
discussions about what could we set as

00:36:56.300 --> 00:37:00.085
a minimum Standard and decided, like,
well, how do we define a professional?

00:37:00.865 --> 00:37:05.920
And a professional is someone
that has formal training, that

00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:12.775
has hands on experience as well
and that follows Standards and

00:37:12.775 --> 00:37:15.015
ethical guidelines and what they do.

00:37:15.015 --> 00:37:20.360
So we kinda created our own standard
back then in a gala that has pretty much

00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:26.830
stayed the entire time, and that just
basically says you have this many hours of

00:37:27.190 --> 00:37:30.065
Rupert Isaacson: I mean And how
does somebody prove that to to

00:37:30.065 --> 00:37:30.385
Lynn Thomas: to you?

00:37:30.385 --> 00:37:33.045
And then they would
they would send in yeah.

00:37:33.345 --> 00:37:35.905
And you can't always prove it because
a lot of these things don't have you

00:37:35.905 --> 00:37:37.700
don't get certificates Necessarily.

00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:38.000
Right?

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:38.300
Absolutely.

00:37:38.300 --> 00:37:40.040
I mean, it was honor policy.

00:37:40.450 --> 00:37:44.070
Most of it, they would send in,
here's what we did to achieve this.

00:37:44.885 --> 00:37:49.125
I mean, you have some organizations
like Path, that will, like, test you.

00:37:49.125 --> 00:37:52.244
You send them videos
maybe, and can you do this?

00:37:52.244 --> 00:37:58.550
And I think, again, you still it's a it's
a tough one because people who do have a

00:37:58.550 --> 00:38:04.055
lot of hands on background and experience
may still be not as Qualified or one

00:38:04.055 --> 00:38:06.615
you can trust as maybe someone else.

00:38:06.615 --> 00:38:07.015
Right?

00:38:07.015 --> 00:38:11.655
So it's and I and I will say it's the same
in the mental in the mental health world.

00:38:11.655 --> 00:38:16.120
There's schooling and testing
and licensure registration in

00:38:16.120 --> 00:38:17.340
different parts of the world.

00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:20.635
So you have that, but that doesn't
make Mean that someone's a good

00:38:20.635 --> 00:38:21.615
mental health professional.

00:38:21.755 --> 00:38:22.075
Yes.

00:38:22.075 --> 00:38:23.775
But at least there's a minimum standard.

00:38:23.915 --> 00:38:24.234
Right?

00:38:24.234 --> 00:38:26.575
There's at least something
a minimum standard.

00:38:27.090 --> 00:38:30.310
And I think that was one of our
reasons too to have a team approach.

00:38:31.010 --> 00:38:33.510
A team approach gives
some checks and balance.

00:38:34.755 --> 00:38:37.925
Rupert Isaacson: We've gone through this a
little bit with Horse Boy because we went

00:38:37.925 --> 00:38:40.965
through a we've gone through a learning
curve, and we're still on a learning curve

00:38:40.965 --> 00:38:46.750
with this where, Like you, I started in a
a field with one horse and my son, but I

00:38:46.750 --> 00:38:50.050
did have, by then, twenty five years plus.

00:38:50.295 --> 00:38:51.495
I just I grew up with it.

00:38:51.495 --> 00:38:54.635
It's what I had always made
my living partly from it.

00:38:54.965 --> 00:38:58.745
I was part of that culture
from my childhood on.

00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:03.800
So I had skills to draw on and I could
discern whether other people did or not.

00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:07.844
However, when we first
began doing what we did.

00:39:07.985 --> 00:39:13.714
We took at face value some some things
and ended up realizing that was a mistake.

00:39:14.014 --> 00:39:21.439
And then, also, um, realizing
that there were such vast amounts

00:39:21.439 --> 00:39:26.894
of differences in in in in what
people's experience with horses were.

00:39:27.114 --> 00:39:30.494
What how could we distill
that down to a base minimum?

00:39:32.139 --> 00:39:36.219
Because as you say, just because if if
they were coming from a European country

00:39:36.219 --> 00:39:41.014
where there are standardized exams that
you do with horses and that sort of thing.

00:39:41.014 --> 00:39:42.794
It's it's it's it's
actually more regulated.

00:39:43.845 --> 00:39:48.860
iT didn't necessarily mean
that they knew that much.

00:39:50.070 --> 00:39:56.615
And so we realized that The only
way we could know was to see them

00:39:57.075 --> 00:40:02.435
and talk to them, and that's why we
ended up creating a a level one entry

00:40:02.435 --> 00:40:13.385
course where one could discern exactly
what somebody's experience base was.

00:40:13.385 --> 00:40:16.985
And if they didn't have enough to
really go further, then they couldn't

00:40:16.985 --> 00:40:20.745
go up the levels until they had
you could say to someone, look.

00:40:20.745 --> 00:40:23.350
Go away for eighteen months
or go away for two years.

00:40:23.350 --> 00:40:25.590
Do this, do this, do this,
and do this, and come back.

00:40:25.590 --> 00:40:27.270
And if you do that, you would be ready.

00:40:27.270 --> 00:40:32.395
But currently, now, you we couldn't
trust you to keep someone safe on someone

00:40:32.395 --> 00:40:34.255
else's child safe on a horse like this.

00:40:34.555 --> 00:40:35.775
But it took us a while.

00:40:37.115 --> 00:40:43.910
And, Um, I'm always intrigued by how
other people do this because it's it's

00:40:43.910 --> 00:40:45.430
it's it's it's an art, not a science.

00:40:45.430 --> 00:40:46.650
It's as you say.

00:40:47.615 --> 00:40:50.415
Is it would you think it was because
Greg who you began this, was he

00:40:50.415 --> 00:40:51.635
a particularly good horseman?

00:40:52.175 --> 00:40:55.130
Did you rely to a large
degree on his discernment.

00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:58.270
And, presumably, his discernment
must have been quite sound.

00:40:58.570 --> 00:41:00.730
Otherwise, the whole thing
would have died to death.

00:41:00.730 --> 00:41:01.230
Right?

00:41:01.770 --> 00:41:07.445
That He must have also been able to help
you put into place a series of ways to

00:41:07.445 --> 00:41:10.825
discern that could make it function.

00:41:11.819 --> 00:41:14.700
Can you talk to us just a little
bit about how that evolved?

00:41:14.700 --> 00:41:15.200
And

00:41:16.859 --> 00:41:17.180
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

00:41:17.180 --> 00:41:22.005
I think, again, like, I came in
this with Not knowledge of horses.

00:41:22.145 --> 00:41:25.985
So my fear level was
and I think that's good.

00:41:25.985 --> 00:41:28.705
I mean, I think in some ways, the
fact that maybe I was a little

00:41:28.705 --> 00:41:31.210
more acute to This scares me.

00:41:31.860 --> 00:41:33.620
anD then you're absolutely right.

00:41:33.620 --> 00:41:37.080
I need to trust my partner
and feel reassured.

00:41:37.795 --> 00:41:38.035
No.

00:41:38.035 --> 00:41:39.575
This is okay what they're doing.

00:41:39.875 --> 00:41:42.595
It's okay for them to be putting
their ears back in this case.

00:41:42.595 --> 00:41:46.295
They're not past their threat the
horse is not past their threshold yet.

00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:49.830
And at any time, if they are starting to
get past their threshold, we would teach

00:41:49.830 --> 00:41:51.830
any any gala, call the clients and, hey.

00:41:51.830 --> 00:41:52.790
Everybody come back here.

00:41:52.790 --> 00:41:55.995
And you get them out of that
in that space, and immediately

00:41:55.995 --> 00:41:56.895
everything deescalates.

00:41:57.194 --> 00:41:57.694
Right?

00:41:58.155 --> 00:41:59.755
So and then you can talk about it.

00:41:59.755 --> 00:42:01.194
But so, yeah, absolutely.

00:42:01.194 --> 00:42:05.330
I think there's a level of You gotta
have to trust your partner as well

00:42:05.330 --> 00:42:08.230
as the equine specialist, and you can
trust the mental health professional

00:42:08.770 --> 00:42:10.930
on the emotional side of the clients.

00:42:10.930 --> 00:42:11.430
Right?

00:42:12.035 --> 00:42:17.415
So I I did feel that trust and that level
of discernment, and I learned a lot.

00:42:17.985 --> 00:42:20.625
I had the opportunity you know,
working with Greg and then working

00:42:20.625 --> 00:42:25.930
with other equine professionals who
were genuinely very comfortable and

00:42:25.930 --> 00:42:27.950
confident and experienced with horses.

00:42:29.035 --> 00:42:33.915
And I think working with them
where they knew limits to push that

00:42:33.915 --> 00:42:37.750
helped me push my limits, Where I
started to get more comfortable.

00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:41.730
I mean, I'll share a quick story
again about jazz as another example

00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:42.950
about learning about horses.

00:42:43.805 --> 00:42:45.325
sO I was out at the farm.

00:42:45.325 --> 00:42:50.990
By this time, I moved to a farm
and, feeding and And I had my kids.

00:42:50.990 --> 00:42:54.110
By this, I had another
child, right, by accident.

00:42:54.110 --> 00:42:54.830
Of course he did.

00:42:54.830 --> 00:42:57.945
Twins was not planned, and then I
had one that kinda Dan, so eighteen

00:42:57.945 --> 00:42:59.225
months younger than the twins.

00:42:59.225 --> 00:43:00.605
I was raising three children.

00:43:01.145 --> 00:43:05.305
And, um, well, my youngest, I
think he was probably two or three.

00:43:05.305 --> 00:43:07.070
Anyways, Young, he could walk.

00:43:07.070 --> 00:43:08.190
He's toddling around.

00:43:08.190 --> 00:43:12.530
I'm pretty far away, and I see
him walk right up behind Jazz.

00:43:13.390 --> 00:43:16.895
And I see and he goes
right behind the legs.

00:43:16.895 --> 00:43:18.335
I'm far enough away.

00:43:18.335 --> 00:43:19.535
There's nothing I can do about it.

00:43:19.535 --> 00:43:22.735
And I remember I had learned
by this point too, like, even

00:43:22.735 --> 00:43:24.720
if I had yelled, like, Hey.

00:43:24.720 --> 00:43:26.320
All I would do is startle the horse.

00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:28.660
Like, there's really
nothing I can do but watch.

00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.740
And Jazz cocked his back
leg like he's gonna kick.

00:43:33.745 --> 00:43:36.245
And my heart, like, stopped.

00:43:36.305 --> 00:43:36.805
Right?

00:43:37.585 --> 00:43:44.920
And then he put his foot and touched Wyatt
Just ever so gently and just kinda nudged

00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:48.680
him and moved him out of the way and Wyatt
went toddling on, walking on his way.

00:43:48.680 --> 00:43:50.040
And I was like, wow.

00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:55.075
Here's this horse That kicks
aggressively looking, um, but, all that.

00:43:55.075 --> 00:43:57.815
And then that's what he
did with this little child.

00:43:58.530 --> 00:43:59.270
So gentle.

00:43:59.410 --> 00:44:02.050
Rupert Isaacson: It is so interesting
how they modify behavior like that.

00:44:02.050 --> 00:44:05.430
We I have a similar story, which
is that Betsy, who was the horse

00:44:05.855 --> 00:44:10.525
who I did everything initially
on with my son had a a foal, and

00:44:10.525 --> 00:44:11.985
this foal was an absolute witch.

00:44:12.205 --> 00:44:17.600
One of the only truly vicious
by nature, and most I've ever

00:44:17.600 --> 00:44:21.460
come across ever in almost fifty
years of of being a professional.

00:44:21.945 --> 00:44:23.645
And this horse was exceptional.

00:44:23.865 --> 00:44:27.485
And it turned out that the stallion she'd
come from was really known for this.

00:44:27.815 --> 00:44:31.850
Anyway, She kicked everyone and everything
and bit everyone and everything.

00:44:31.910 --> 00:44:35.830
And much later on even, I had
to I ended up inheriting her

00:44:35.830 --> 00:44:37.155
because nobody wanted her.

00:44:37.155 --> 00:44:40.595
Had to move her off the farm and move her
to someone who was a real professional

00:44:40.595 --> 00:44:41.795
because we had kids going around.

00:44:41.795 --> 00:44:48.860
I once found what my my, Uh, guy
who was running my barn at the time.

00:44:48.860 --> 00:44:49.740
This is years in.

00:44:49.740 --> 00:44:52.940
He was a real professional,
really qualified dude.

00:44:52.940 --> 00:44:56.415
I found him unconscious, uh,
after having been kicked by her.

00:44:56.415 --> 00:44:57.055
I was like, okay.

00:44:57.055 --> 00:44:57.855
We have to get up.

00:44:57.855 --> 00:45:00.415
And and, weirdly, she was always
very very submissive under

00:45:00.415 --> 00:45:01.880
saddle, but on the ground.

00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:06.360
Anyway, when she was very young, I saw a
very similar thing happen where Rowan, my

00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:10.925
son, somehow got away from me and Aquinas.

00:45:10.925 --> 00:45:12.145
Ran up to Manila.

00:45:12.365 --> 00:45:17.345
I was like, and exactly as you
described, you cannot shout.

00:45:17.965 --> 00:45:26.900
And I saw her raise the leg, He grabbed
it, and I saw her look around at him.

00:45:28.945 --> 00:45:32.145
And you could see in her own brain,
she I don't really understand why

00:45:32.145 --> 00:45:36.390
I'm not kicking you, but I am putting
my leg down now, and I myself am

00:45:36.390 --> 00:45:37.930
a little bit confused about this.

00:45:38.310 --> 00:45:39.930
And off you went.

00:45:40.630 --> 00:45:47.265
And this this interesting dynamic,
this this a pure line of communication.

00:45:47.485 --> 00:45:51.485
I'd seen it before with him with Betsy,
and I'd realized, oh, he has a direct

00:45:51.485 --> 00:45:53.030
line to the horses that I do not.

00:45:53.430 --> 00:45:56.890
My ego is firmly in the way because
I'm a neurotypical human being.

00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:01.220
Him being not neurotypical, the
that veil, there was no veil across.

00:46:01.220 --> 00:46:03.615
I've now seen this, so
many times in anyone.

00:46:03.615 --> 00:46:09.900
I think he's worked with autism a lot
would tell the same stories, but No.

00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:14.800
It's almost a cult because it seems
to defy all the accepted rules.

00:46:15.745 --> 00:46:20.785
And, uh, I I I I agree with you.

00:46:20.785 --> 00:46:29.310
This this this thing of how these animals
can modify their behavior for better or

00:46:29.310 --> 00:46:36.075
worse with people is something which I
think until the therapeutic riding world

00:46:36.535 --> 00:46:43.290
the the therapeutic equine world really
took off, was something that was really

00:46:43.290 --> 00:46:45.710
sidelined to anecdote among horsemen.

00:46:46.090 --> 00:46:48.030
And now, of course, we use it as a tool.

00:46:49.475 --> 00:46:52.755
And you I suppose one could always say,
well, one did use it always as tools

00:46:52.755 --> 00:46:56.400
with sort of schoolmaster horses and that
sort of thing, teaching people to ride,

00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:06.205
but, nonetheless, I think the awareness
of just how much horses cut us a break.

00:47:06.385 --> 00:47:09.845
I think it's only beginning to
be understood, and therefore,

00:47:10.625 --> 00:47:13.845
a window on their intelligence
that we haven't had before.

00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:18.180
It's an evolving out of our work.

00:47:18.180 --> 00:47:23.875
But I'm I'm seeing a pattern emerge in
your story, which is that You are clearly

00:47:23.875 --> 00:47:28.675
someone who learns very, very fast based
on observation because you started this

00:47:28.675 --> 00:47:30.690
story saying you had no wilderness at all.

00:47:30.690 --> 00:47:31.490
You're a city girl.

00:47:31.490 --> 00:47:33.270
What city was that, by the way?

00:47:34.130 --> 00:47:38.180
Lynn Thomas: Well, I moved around
growing up, but mainly in Houston.

00:47:38.855 --> 00:47:39.355
Okay.

00:47:39.415 --> 00:47:39.915
Texas.

00:47:40.055 --> 00:47:44.775
Then I actually lived near London
of my last two years of high school.

00:47:44.775 --> 00:47:46.075
So In the UK?

00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:46.940
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:47.480
Okay.

00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:47.800
Yeah.

00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:48.120
Right.

00:47:48.120 --> 00:47:51.320
So, yeah, in Houston, I I lived
and my ranch was outside Austin.

00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.360
I know what a suburban
behemoth Houston is.

00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:54.860
Yes.

00:47:55.895 --> 00:47:59.915
Despite the image of Texas as all
branches or Houston as anything but that.

00:48:00.055 --> 00:48:00.535
Yeah.

00:48:00.585 --> 00:48:00.985
Okay.

00:48:00.985 --> 00:48:09.575
So Then you this Houston girl, you're
out with teenagers who aren't very

00:48:09.575 --> 00:48:10.955
good at looking after themselves.

00:48:11.575 --> 00:48:13.655
You know nothing about
the wilderness, really.

00:48:13.655 --> 00:48:17.230
And in a relatively short period of
time, you are is trusted to keep these

00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:21.250
kids alive in an environment that you
yourself have not grown up in that usually

00:48:21.470 --> 00:48:26.585
takes, again, some decades to get to
know in order to keep people safe in.

00:48:26.585 --> 00:48:30.045
Yet there you are doing it,
not yet twenty years old.

00:48:30.185 --> 00:48:35.390
And then to the point that They want you
to run the program, and then you go off

00:48:35.390 --> 00:48:39.950
and you work on this ranch for a year,
admittedly, with a very good with Greg,

00:48:39.950 --> 00:48:44.675
a very good mentor, but nonetheless I
mean, Mentorship Still Takes Its Time.

00:48:45.055 --> 00:48:53.420
And a year later, there you are able to
judge, discern, and apply these things.

00:48:55.640 --> 00:49:01.475
What what is it in your family
line that has this acuity for

00:49:01.475 --> 00:49:05.315
observation and implementation of
what you observe, do you think?

00:49:05.315 --> 00:49:06.455
Who do you get it from?

00:49:08.950 --> 00:49:09.510
Lynn Thomas: wEll, thank you.

00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:12.710
As you were sharing that, I was
like or people are crazy enough.

00:49:12.710 --> 00:49:13.930
They're desperate enough.

00:49:14.180 --> 00:49:15.140
But, yeah, you're right.

00:49:15.140 --> 00:49:15.380
No.

00:49:15.380 --> 00:49:18.855
I do, Um, I do observe.

00:49:19.075 --> 00:49:22.435
I do listen, and I do take it all in.

00:49:22.435 --> 00:49:28.120
And I and I think I have a way
of Organizing information that,

00:49:28.290 --> 00:49:31.410
helped create what we did with
Eigala and helped create the model

00:49:31.410 --> 00:49:33.170
and helped create how to teach it.

00:49:33.170 --> 00:49:34.870
I'm always trying to break things down.

00:49:35.170 --> 00:49:40.150
I mean, my dad definitely comes to
mind because my dad is an engineer,

00:49:40.925 --> 00:49:45.905
Mechanical engineer, and he has that
kind of perfectionist, problem solving,

00:49:46.445 --> 00:49:48.365
working things out kinda brain.

00:49:48.365 --> 00:49:53.580
So I do, I guess probably
feel them a lot like my dad.

00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:58.325
So that could be and, Yeah.

00:49:58.325 --> 00:49:59.305
I like to learn.

00:49:59.605 --> 00:50:04.405
I mean, I think Are you we would
get criticized for what we were

00:50:04.405 --> 00:50:05.940
doing, we would get Challenge.

00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:08.100
We got, oh, you're
being abusive to horses.

00:50:08.100 --> 00:50:09.880
You're do you know, all these things.

00:50:10.740 --> 00:50:15.995
And I would listen to that Because
those perspectives are important, and

00:50:15.995 --> 00:50:17.275
those perspectives are meaningful.

00:50:17.275 --> 00:50:20.795
And then it would help me it's like, I
guess I'm a research gatherer in the sense

00:50:20.795 --> 00:50:24.640
that I like to gather information and then
parse through it and then organize it.

00:50:24.860 --> 00:50:25.360
So

00:50:25.740 --> 00:50:30.560
Rupert Isaacson: my personal thinker,
and you don't and somewhere in there,

00:50:31.135 --> 00:50:35.295
Your ego must be very quiet because
when you come under attack and in the

00:50:35.295 --> 00:50:39.660
horse world and the mental health world,
super factional world, as we know.

00:50:40.070 --> 00:50:40.790
People come out.

00:50:40.790 --> 00:50:42.070
Everybody comes under attack.

00:50:42.070 --> 00:50:45.190
That you you can't be in that
world, either of those worlds,

00:50:45.190 --> 00:50:46.465
and not come under attack.

00:50:46.465 --> 00:50:47.425
It's like academia.

00:50:47.425 --> 00:50:48.785
You're gonna come under attack.

00:50:48.785 --> 00:50:49.765
That's just it.

00:50:51.105 --> 00:50:56.220
Yet to to be able to not take
it personally and to filter the

00:50:56.220 --> 00:51:01.680
information, and then make it
work to make the thing better.

00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:08.365
That takes a certain lack of
ego defensiveness, which is

00:51:08.365 --> 00:51:11.665
unusual in both the horse world
and the mental health world.

00:51:12.130 --> 00:51:15.330
Why is it that you don't take
it personally when people

00:51:15.330 --> 00:51:16.550
go after you like that?

00:51:19.895 --> 00:51:20.135
Equinix.

00:51:20.135 --> 00:51:21.975
You were young back then too, isn't it?

00:51:21.975 --> 00:51:24.235
Lynn Thomas: I I was young.

00:51:26.055 --> 00:51:26.295
Yeah.

00:51:26.295 --> 00:51:30.820
I mean, I think there is that level
of humility as a characteristic.

00:51:31.550 --> 00:51:35.470
I was someone that really wasn't trying
to have any recognition of who in

00:51:35.470 --> 00:51:40.245
fact, What years later that I now you,
starting new things and leaving a gala.

00:51:41.585 --> 00:51:41.825
Yeah.

00:51:41.825 --> 00:51:44.810
I didn't actually really knew people
even knew who I was, because That was

00:51:44.810 --> 00:51:46.430
not something that's important to me.

00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:50.300
But, yeah, I mean, I think even when
you're asking about finding equine

00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:52.135
specialists and that Standard.

00:51:52.135 --> 00:51:55.035
So one of our standards too
was continuing education.

00:51:55.415 --> 00:51:56.135
Ah, okay.

00:51:56.135 --> 00:52:00.520
Continuing education is an important
standard to me Personally, because,

00:52:00.520 --> 00:52:03.720
one, I think as a professional,
that's part of being a professional

00:52:03.720 --> 00:52:04.520
is you're always learning.

00:52:04.520 --> 00:52:08.655
You're always trying to improve your craft
And challenge yourself in your craft.

00:52:08.795 --> 00:52:09.295
Yeah.

00:52:09.515 --> 00:52:13.915
And the other part of it, though, is
people who do continue education usually

00:52:13.915 --> 00:52:15.535
tend to be more open to learning.

00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:19.240
And it's it is, like, I
think horses pick up on that.

00:52:19.240 --> 00:52:23.400
Like you said, that ego versus
openness to learning something new

00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:25.080
and openness to being challenged.

00:52:25.080 --> 00:52:28.105
Like, Just because I think
this way doesn't mean my way is

00:52:28.105 --> 00:52:29.645
the only way or the right way.

00:52:30.345 --> 00:52:34.300
So I I think there is that, I don't know
that belief system that kinda instilled

00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:39.180
with me somehow or maybe personality, but
I I think that's why education, always

00:52:39.180 --> 00:52:40.585
learning, continue education Equinix.

00:52:40.705 --> 00:52:44.305
Requirements even like you're talking
about in in a certification or a training

00:52:44.305 --> 00:52:47.345
program is important, at least to me.

00:52:47.345 --> 00:52:51.050
Rupert Isaacson: And when you when
you talk about continuous education.

00:52:51.590 --> 00:52:56.630
Do you mean that when people went through
Nagana certification, if they didn't

00:52:56.630 --> 00:53:01.055
do a certain amount of continuous that
they would lose their certification, or

00:53:01.115 --> 00:53:06.655
do you mean or and do you mean that you
looked for applicants who were already

00:53:06.795 --> 00:53:11.300
involved in who had to show in some
way before they even began that they

00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:20.245
were people who were seeking education
in various ways, or did you wait till

00:53:20.245 --> 00:53:23.310
they got their their certification
and then say, alright, chaps.

00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:25.760
You we've certified you, but there's
some hoops to jump through now.

00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:27.700
Let's see if you jump through them.

00:53:28.640 --> 00:53:30.000
Lynn Thomas: So, I mean, I yeah.

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.195
Hoops to jump through,
that Drives me crazy.

00:53:33.195 --> 00:53:37.195
So it is first of all, I'll say both
to what you're saying, that they come

00:53:37.195 --> 00:53:38.795
showing a history of getting continuing

00:53:38.795 --> 00:53:39.275
Rupert Isaacson: education.

00:53:39.435 --> 00:53:40.075
Did ask for that.

00:53:40.075 --> 00:53:41.440
You look for Okay.

00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:41.760
That's

00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:42.240
Lynn Thomas: interesting.

00:53:42.240 --> 00:53:42.560
Yep.

00:53:42.560 --> 00:53:43.520
That they have that.

00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:46.100
And then the second thing is
that they commit to continuing

00:53:46.240 --> 00:53:47.860
education going forward.

00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:49.200
And how do you get And of it.

00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.025
Including with the gala yeah.

00:53:51.025 --> 00:53:51.185
Aquinas.

00:53:51.185 --> 00:53:51.505
Oh, sorry.

00:53:51.505 --> 00:53:52.225
Go ahead, Ruth.

00:53:52.225 --> 00:53:53.525
How do you get them to commit?

00:53:54.705 --> 00:53:58.595
Well, that's why we had with Ygala,
we had a certification that had a

00:53:58.595 --> 00:54:01.660
two year Limited time limit on it.

00:54:01.660 --> 00:54:05.200
So you did need to renew, and you
did need to do continuing education.

00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:09.525
And it did include continuing
education Specific to the model.

00:54:09.525 --> 00:54:12.745
Because if you're saying you're
a specialist in this model,

00:54:13.365 --> 00:54:15.285
then there's continued learning.

00:54:15.285 --> 00:54:19.730
So while I was doing a gala I
mean, the last training manual

00:54:19.730 --> 00:54:23.570
that I wrote for the training
program, I mean, it was continually

00:54:23.570 --> 00:54:24.770
evolving, continually changing.

00:54:24.770 --> 00:54:25.990
It was the ninth edition.

00:54:26.145 --> 00:54:28.545
And, technically, I was making little
changes along the way that I didn't

00:54:28.545 --> 00:54:29.925
just change the edition number.

00:54:30.385 --> 00:54:35.480
So the ninth edition training manual
was a complete rewrite From the

00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:36.920
eighth edition training manual.

00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:40.680
So it was kinda like every few
years, there was this, like, okay.

00:54:40.680 --> 00:54:41.560
We've learned new things.

00:54:41.560 --> 00:54:42.615
We've learned new ideas.

00:54:42.855 --> 00:54:46.455
And so, yeah, we would want people who
are saying, I did the YALA model to

00:54:46.455 --> 00:54:50.795
be able to say, and I'm up to date on
some of the latest ideas and concepts.

00:54:50.855 --> 00:54:55.980
And I think for me, one, I
believe in always learning.

00:54:56.200 --> 00:54:56.520
Right?

00:54:56.520 --> 00:54:58.680
And I believe in pushing
ourselves, like I said.

00:54:58.680 --> 00:55:03.525
But two, I probably would be bored
If we've stayed only the same.

00:55:04.225 --> 00:55:08.625
So I think I like there's a part of
me that likes to try new ideas out,

00:55:08.625 --> 00:55:12.210
and, oh, let's Try this and see what
happens, and it could be a complete fail.

00:55:12.590 --> 00:55:15.470
And sometimes I would talk to
my colleagues and say, okay.

00:55:15.470 --> 00:55:16.370
I have this idea.

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:17.630
Will you go try this?

00:55:17.630 --> 00:55:18.430
And then they come back.

00:55:18.430 --> 00:55:21.295
Well, That worked really
well, and I'd be like, really?

00:55:21.295 --> 00:55:22.035
It did.

00:55:22.495 --> 00:55:24.355
Be shocked and surprised.

00:55:24.495 --> 00:55:27.870
But that kinda makes it
fun for me too to try

00:55:27.870 --> 00:55:28.610
Rupert Isaacson: things out.

00:55:28.670 --> 00:55:29.150
Okay.

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:33.310
So now let's assume people are
listening to this podcast, and they're

00:55:33.310 --> 00:55:34.690
perhaps driving and they can't.

00:55:36.185 --> 00:55:40.105
Maybe they don't even maybe they
know the word igala, but they don't

00:55:40.105 --> 00:55:41.885
actually know what igala did or does.

00:55:43.015 --> 00:55:46.330
What Was is the purpose of Igala?

00:55:46.950 --> 00:55:50.870
What's it trying to people ask me this
about horse boy, for example, and I so

00:55:50.870 --> 00:55:52.855
I learned to ask myself that question.

00:55:52.855 --> 00:55:56.955
It's basically what we're after, first and
foremost, with Horse Boys' communication.

00:55:57.735 --> 00:56:03.320
And we use our key for that is
oxytocin, and that's generally for us

00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:07.930
produced by rhythmic rocking of the
hips on a horse that's in collection.

00:56:08.605 --> 00:56:12.895
And if the rider is very small,
they're up there with us and

00:56:13.305 --> 00:56:14.765
being supported by our bodies.

00:56:14.905 --> 00:56:17.840
And if they're not if
they're bigger or adult.

00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.880
They are in long reigns or we're
working the horse in hand, but we're

00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.400
looking for that collected rhythm.

00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:26.195
And we're looking to do it in a that's for
the oxytocin for communication, calming

00:56:26.195 --> 00:56:31.415
the nervous system, and we're doing it in
a place with no negative sensory triggers.

00:56:31.555 --> 00:56:35.910
So we're not exacerbating the
existing problem of the overactive

00:56:35.970 --> 00:56:39.090
amygdala being triggered by an
over sensitive nervous system.

00:56:39.090 --> 00:56:42.015
So that means nature as much as
possible or bringing the outside

00:56:42.015 --> 00:56:43.635
inside if we have to be inside.

00:56:43.885 --> 00:56:49.000
And then there's a a human environment
as well, of not being an asshole,

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:52.600
basically, so that the the person
doesn't feel under threat and you're not

00:56:52.600 --> 00:56:54.700
activating an already overactive amygdala.

00:56:56.145 --> 00:57:00.645
And then we once we begin to get these
brain changes through the oxytocin

00:57:00.785 --> 00:57:04.230
is the first bit, then there's
BDNF, which is the protein that's

00:57:04.230 --> 00:57:06.250
the beginning of neuroplasticity.

00:57:06.870 --> 00:57:09.350
This happens through the
activities that we're doing.

00:57:09.350 --> 00:57:12.890
Then we feed information in, and we
basically begin to teach academics

00:57:13.095 --> 00:57:16.475
first rule based games and then
academics on or with the horse.

00:57:17.095 --> 00:57:19.435
And, eventually, the
kid learns to teach us.

00:57:19.575 --> 00:57:21.175
And that's horse boy.

00:57:21.175 --> 00:57:24.870
So It evolved basically through me doing
that with my son and then realizing

00:57:25.330 --> 00:57:28.930
that this was replicable after I got
neuroscientists to explain to me what

00:57:28.930 --> 00:57:33.355
was going on with with this oxytocin
and BDNF effect and why the collection

00:57:33.355 --> 00:57:37.435
that I had just noticed got me a
better response, just observed it.

00:57:37.435 --> 00:57:42.620
Now I knew why it worked, and now I
knew We could go on and do it more.

00:57:42.620 --> 00:57:47.680
But at the bottom line, it's
communication, brain change, and then

00:57:48.335 --> 00:57:52.895
feeding in information so that life
skills can be taught because as well

00:57:52.895 --> 00:57:57.155
as the academics that, bring someone
to a place where they can begin to swim

00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.300
more effectively in the shark infested
waters of neurotypical humanity.

00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:03.440
So, that sort of horse
point in a nutshell.

00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.620
What's Igala in a nutshell?

00:58:08.225 --> 00:58:10.645
In a nutshell, but in a nutshell.

00:58:11.745 --> 00:58:15.125
Lynn Thomas: Well and I will say just
even listening to your description

00:58:15.265 --> 00:58:21.880
too, and I I think of horse boy
method, um, having that clear identity.

00:58:22.340 --> 00:58:26.015
I mean, if Someone is working
with neurotypical, like you said,

00:58:26.015 --> 00:58:29.955
and your background and your
experience is really valuable.

00:58:30.630 --> 00:58:35.270
So I think first and foremost, both the
Gall and Ollie's organizations that are

00:58:35.270 --> 00:58:39.405
training and certifying in different
approaches, Besides the learning that

00:58:39.405 --> 00:58:43.565
you get of tools and an understanding
of why it's working like you were just

00:58:43.565 --> 00:58:47.405
sharing, here's some of the rationale,
the theoretical frameworks, the the

00:58:47.405 --> 00:58:52.940
knowledge base To understand why what
we're doing makes sense to achieve

00:58:52.940 --> 00:58:54.320
the goals we're trying to achieve.

00:58:54.460 --> 00:58:58.895
So there's that of learning those tools
and that knowledge base and understanding.

00:58:58.955 --> 00:59:05.230
But then there's the community of
So I think both the Galen and other

00:59:05.230 --> 00:59:08.590
organizations, one, it's providing
a professional community both

00:59:08.590 --> 00:59:12.955
to learn from each other, But to
support and uplift one another too.

00:59:13.765 --> 00:59:18.440
Especially like you said in the earlier
years, I would say Main objective that

00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:22.600
we had with the gala was really getting
that credibility and awareness out

00:59:22.600 --> 00:59:24.300
there to the mental health community.

00:59:24.855 --> 00:59:26.535
So that's where we started, like, okay.

00:59:26.535 --> 00:59:30.075
How can we get mental health people
to start referring to these programs

00:59:30.215 --> 00:59:36.180
and, like you say, Insurance or funding
sources to be willing to pay for these

00:59:36.180 --> 00:59:40.575
services because it does cost more
When you're incorporating all that

00:59:40.575 --> 00:59:45.185
you're incorporating with horses and
and so how can we get that credibility?

00:59:45.485 --> 00:59:49.880
And, One, having standards so
that, like I shared earlier, those

00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:52.220
standards help achieve that objective.

00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:55.115
Having a professional
community so we're not alone.

00:59:55.115 --> 00:59:56.635
I mean, when you go to someone say, hey.

00:59:56.635 --> 00:59:58.235
I'm one program out there doing this.

00:59:58.235 --> 00:59:58.795
That's nice.

00:59:58.795 --> 01:00:00.015
But when you say, hey.

01:00:00.075 --> 01:00:05.070
There's two thousand People, there's five
hundred programs that are connected with

01:00:05.070 --> 01:00:08.750
one another, um, that are doing this work.

01:00:08.750 --> 01:00:11.215
All of a sudden, it's like,
Oh, that piques interest.

01:00:11.275 --> 01:00:16.655
So I think having a louder voice by having
a community is also really valuable.

01:00:18.100 --> 01:00:21.540
Rupert Isaacson: And when you when you
went to the mental health gatekeepers and

01:00:21.540 --> 01:00:24.900
said, we have this way of working, what
is it that you're saying you're doing?

01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:28.505
We are ameliorating
mental health challenges.

01:00:29.205 --> 01:00:32.005
We are ameliorating quality of life.

01:00:32.005 --> 01:00:33.365
We are teaching life skills.

01:00:33.365 --> 01:00:37.600
We are, healing trauma.

01:00:38.650 --> 01:00:40.430
We we are all of the above.

01:00:41.370 --> 01:00:46.605
When when you were sitting
in front, What's Igala doing

01:00:47.625 --> 01:00:49.645
specifically for the client?

01:00:50.105 --> 01:00:51.305
Self regulation, is

01:00:51.305 --> 01:00:51.805
Lynn Thomas: it?

01:00:53.010 --> 01:00:53.170
Yeah.

01:00:53.170 --> 01:00:56.310
And just to share too, I think
that's another great point.

01:00:56.690 --> 01:00:59.910
We were very specific that
we're focused on mental health.

01:01:00.445 --> 01:01:03.085
So a lot of what's out there kind
of like, well, I do a little bit

01:01:03.085 --> 01:01:08.045
of recreational riding for physical
therapy benefits or there's actual

01:01:08.045 --> 01:01:11.460
physical therapist There there's
occupational therapists, and there's

01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:13.060
so many different types of services.

01:01:13.060 --> 01:01:17.080
So I think to having a clear that's
why I said having a clear identity.

01:01:17.300 --> 01:01:17.800
Okay.

01:01:18.095 --> 01:01:19.296
We're focused on mental health.

01:01:19.296 --> 01:01:21.475
Now people will know us for mental health.

01:01:21.536 --> 01:01:25.215
And when you ask specifically
about that what I hear you asking

01:01:25.215 --> 01:01:27.640
maybe again is maybe explaining
to the mental Health Committee.

01:01:27.640 --> 01:01:32.160
When I go to a conference, here's
what the horse adds to the process.

01:01:32.160 --> 01:01:35.040
So we weren't so specific to
mental health saying it's only

01:01:35.040 --> 01:01:37.055
this one area of mental health.

01:01:37.215 --> 01:01:43.095
We were broad to any psycho cycle
psychological practice out there kinda

01:01:43.095 --> 01:01:45.130
thing would, fall under that umbrella.

01:01:45.130 --> 01:01:48.090
So mental health is pretty broad,
but it was specific to mental health.

01:01:48.090 --> 01:01:51.826
So people are working with
all sorts of different Either

01:01:51.826 --> 01:01:54.165
disorders or well-being in general.

01:01:55.935 --> 01:01:59.715
So then I hear you saying, well,
what is it that the horse brings?

01:02:00.980 --> 01:02:07.460
How why would I take the extra effort,
cost, and logistical struggle to

01:02:07.540 --> 01:02:11.865
as a mental health professional to
then involve a horse in the session.

01:02:12.165 --> 01:02:15.045
And I guess, does that what
you're say sharing is, like, what

01:02:15.045 --> 01:02:15.785
Rupert Isaacson: we would explain?

01:02:15.845 --> 01:02:20.670
We would say, well, we can get this
oxytocin and this BDNF, and this

01:02:20.670 --> 01:02:25.870
neuroplasticity in a way that we couldn't
quite get it if we didn't do it this way.

01:02:25.870 --> 01:02:29.170
We'll get more of it if we do
it this way than if we don't.

01:02:29.765 --> 01:02:33.845
Lynn Thomas: And I think, I mean,
I think it'd be I think some of the

01:02:33.845 --> 01:02:38.910
knowledge has grown because From what
I recall back in the when we first

01:02:38.910 --> 01:02:42.670
started Egala, the knowledge about the
size of the horse I mean, the horse, the

01:02:42.670 --> 01:02:48.455
size of the heart of the horse And that
energy field and how that could impact.

01:02:48.455 --> 01:02:53.655
And, definitely, there was that how,
yeah, the oxytocin and how we can relax

01:02:53.655 --> 01:02:55.200
and how Outcomes our nervous system.

01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:58.400
So there was some of that back then that
we could share, but that's really kinda

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:00.160
come along the way, in a bigger way.

01:03:00.160 --> 01:03:04.675
And the whole concept of trauma
and and embodiment, And that's

01:03:04.675 --> 01:03:06.355
really been more recent as well.

01:03:06.355 --> 01:03:10.855
So that's all stuff we can
now add into why horses.

01:03:10.915 --> 01:03:17.700
Horses help us physically Engage
with a relationship, and we

01:03:17.700 --> 01:03:19.000
can heal through relationship.

01:03:19.060 --> 01:03:20.660
There's so much research on that now.

01:03:20.660 --> 01:03:25.125
We can heal through Our bodies our
bodies have more knowledge than our

01:03:25.125 --> 01:03:30.246
mental heads have about our past
and what we bring into to our lives.

01:03:30.246 --> 01:03:33.670
And so, courses can help us do that.

01:03:33.670 --> 01:03:37.291
So back then when we first started,
we focused a lot on experiential.

01:03:37.511 --> 01:03:41.756
And because that was a big thing back
then too, The value of experiencing,

01:03:42.296 --> 01:03:44.296
the value of doing versus just talking.

01:03:44.296 --> 01:03:47.676
So we're talking to, but we're also
adding the doing and the physicality

01:03:47.816 --> 01:03:52.700
part, And then the value of getting
that feedback, uh, from the horse.

01:03:52.700 --> 01:03:55.420
It's like a bio back then,
biofeedback is really big.

01:03:55.420 --> 01:03:59.356
So bio it's like a biofeedback
that's alive, though.

01:03:59.575 --> 01:04:02.876
That gives us authentic
relationship focused experience.

01:04:03.736 --> 01:04:05.775
And then, How we can feel.

01:04:05.775 --> 01:04:09.636
And then we would add into
the engagement factor.

01:04:09.936 --> 01:04:13.210
If people are not engaged in
treatment, If they don't stick with

01:04:13.210 --> 01:04:17.230
it, if they don't want to come, then
they're not gonna get the benefits.

01:04:17.530 --> 01:04:21.025
So horses have An ability to engage.

01:04:21.245 --> 01:04:23.725
Rupert Isaacson: Makes people wanna
come back and complete the Yeah.

01:04:23.805 --> 01:04:24.545
The program.

01:04:24.926 --> 01:04:25.325
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:04:25.325 --> 01:04:26.366
They wanna come back.

01:04:26.366 --> 01:04:30.480
They wanna see their horse Connections
their relationships are starting to make.

01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:31.520
They want to learn.

01:04:31.520 --> 01:04:34.500
So, I mean, that's that
can't be underestimated,

01:04:35.200 --> 01:04:36.480
the value of the engagement

01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:36.865
Rupert Isaacson: factor.

01:04:36.865 --> 01:04:37.345
Here.

01:04:37.345 --> 01:04:37.845
Absolutely.

01:04:38.225 --> 01:04:41.105
I just wrote down while you
were talking the the the note

01:04:41.105 --> 01:04:43.125
that I wrote engagement to.

01:04:43.345 --> 01:04:46.085
This is under dynamic response,
but healing through relationship.

01:04:48.130 --> 01:04:49.810
So when I say, well,
what is it Igala does?

01:04:49.810 --> 01:04:54.230
And I I think then if, let's
say, I was going out as your rep.

01:04:54.855 --> 01:04:55.575
So, well, gosh.

01:04:55.575 --> 01:04:58.615
I've gotta go give a little
talk now on Lynn's thing.

01:04:58.615 --> 01:04:59.115
Shit.

01:04:59.185 --> 01:05:02.490
Again, I'm busily taking notes about
what she's saying, but dynamic response

01:05:02.490 --> 01:05:03.930
healing through relationship engagement.

01:05:03.930 --> 01:05:06.650
So because healing through
relationship can cover so many things.

01:05:06.650 --> 01:05:06.890
Right?

01:05:06.890 --> 01:05:07.790
That is oxytocin.

01:05:07.850 --> 01:05:08.750
That is serotonin.

01:05:09.145 --> 01:05:11.325
That is brain change and neuroplasticity.

01:05:11.545 --> 01:05:12.365
That is BDNF.

01:05:12.505 --> 01:05:14.025
That is axons and dendrites.

01:05:14.025 --> 01:05:16.775
That is all those things and
it's also the nervous system.

01:05:16.775 --> 01:05:17.735
It's the vagus nerve.

01:05:17.735 --> 01:05:21.750
It's so one could break it
down into that biological okay.

01:05:21.750 --> 01:05:23.930
This is why it works in
the sort of Lego pieces.

01:05:24.150 --> 01:05:28.415
But healing through relationship is,
I think, a concept that anybody can

01:05:28.415 --> 01:05:33.875
get because I think given that we
are relationship animals ourselves,

01:05:36.070 --> 01:05:38.790
The worst thing one can do to a human
is put them in solitary confinement.

01:05:38.790 --> 01:05:39.610
We know this.

01:05:40.580 --> 01:05:44.395
That healing through relationship
with an animal that doesn't

01:05:44.395 --> 01:05:47.295
press your mirror neurons, but
does give you dynamic feedback.

01:05:48.745 --> 01:05:50.760
iF you and I, You're my therapist.

01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:51.660
I'm your therapist.

01:05:51.720 --> 01:05:56.260
We're relating to each other as human
beings in a way that could get in the way.

01:05:57.165 --> 01:05:58.065
With a horse.

01:05:58.765 --> 01:05:59.265
No.

01:05:59.405 --> 01:06:03.245
And we we found this, obviously, with
autism that because the horse doesn't

01:06:03.245 --> 01:06:07.580
have these bazillion facial muscles
that are so incredibly confusing

01:06:08.120 --> 01:06:12.380
to someone who's already having
trouble reading human faces anyway.

01:06:13.135 --> 01:06:16.975
The the horse presents a simpler,
easier to understand thing.

01:06:16.975 --> 01:06:18.195
This has come out later.

01:06:18.575 --> 01:06:24.000
Do you think it could be true
that, people who are dealing

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:25.700
with compromised mental health.

01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:32.395
Because they're humans, Their healing
has to come through relationship, but

01:06:32.395 --> 01:06:40.370
relationship with another human is going
to bring all the baggage that it cannot be

01:06:40.370 --> 01:06:44.790
avoided emotionally, yet a horse will not.

01:06:47.465 --> 01:06:49.785
Do you think that there's a value in that?

01:06:49.785 --> 01:06:53.805
Do you think that that is
a a factor of the success?

01:06:54.200 --> 01:06:55.480
Because this has been successful.

01:06:55.480 --> 01:06:56.540
Igala is a thing.

01:06:58.680 --> 01:06:59.160
Lynn Thomas: YEah.

01:06:59.160 --> 01:07:03.055
I mean, I think that's that was probably
one of our biggest Points not with

01:07:03.055 --> 01:07:08.015
all the wonderful scientific knowledge
of the body and the brain that you

01:07:08.015 --> 01:07:12.590
were sharing there, but back then,
that idea of having A relationship

01:07:12.590 --> 01:07:14.130
with a being that's nonjudgmental.

01:07:14.510 --> 01:07:15.890
They don't come with our biases.

01:07:16.430 --> 01:07:18.290
They don't come with
the same human agendas.

01:07:19.085 --> 01:07:21.965
They don't know what your background,
whether you're rich or poor, and what

01:07:21.965 --> 01:07:24.205
your academic experience is and knowledge.

01:07:24.205 --> 01:07:29.540
So that was definitely An appealing
element because, yeah, that does make

01:07:29.540 --> 01:07:32.740
a difference to have a relationship
with someone that isn't judging you

01:07:32.740 --> 01:07:37.525
and telling you you're wrong and bad
and those kinds of and you're making

01:07:37.525 --> 01:07:40.565
me think of I probably I mean, my
elevator speech probably, changed a

01:07:40.565 --> 01:07:42.005
bit, and especially has changed now.

01:07:42.005 --> 01:07:45.030
I'm definitely more focused on
On the relationship component

01:07:45.030 --> 01:07:51.585
than I used to be and benefit of
horses and the calming, Factor.

01:07:51.645 --> 01:07:55.085
In the early days of a gala, a lot
of it was focused, like I said, on

01:07:55.085 --> 01:07:56.705
doing problem solving activities.

01:07:57.245 --> 01:08:02.980
And that idea of as you work through these
problems And solve them and find your

01:08:02.980 --> 01:08:05.540
ways of solving them, not someone else.

01:08:05.540 --> 01:08:10.215
You discover your own ways so that
That journey of self discovery, of

01:08:10.215 --> 01:08:15.355
problem solving, of building resilience,
that kind of concept was some of it.

01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:19.570
And then the other thing was
and and interesting, I think

01:08:19.570 --> 01:08:20.450
that's still part of it.

01:08:20.450 --> 01:08:23.190
I don't think for me, that's
as big of a part anymore.

01:08:23.935 --> 01:08:27.615
But the other thing I would say to
people, they say, oh, what do you know?

01:08:27.615 --> 01:08:29.215
Oh, I involve horses for mental health.

01:08:29.215 --> 01:08:31.235
Oh, so you're, like, riding and stuff.

01:08:32.240 --> 01:08:32.480
No.

01:08:32.480 --> 01:08:33.760
Actually, we don't ride at all.

01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:35.600
They're not usually oh, yeah.

01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:36.100
Okay.

01:08:36.480 --> 01:08:39.665
So you're, like, petting them and
feeding them, taking care of them.

01:08:40.095 --> 01:08:44.655
Oh, actually, what we're doing is
horses, as a prey animal, are really

01:08:44.655 --> 01:08:47.950
good at reading their environments,
And they're very sensitive to

01:08:47.950 --> 01:08:49.070
what's going on around them.

01:08:49.070 --> 01:08:52.430
So and they all have different
personalities as well.

01:08:52.430 --> 01:08:57.495
So when you're engaging with horses, They
end up responding to you in ways that

01:08:57.495 --> 01:09:01.974
might feel familiar to other relationships
you're having in your life and maybe

01:09:01.974 --> 01:09:06.120
the struggles you're having with your
children or with your coworkers or and

01:09:06.120 --> 01:09:10.360
I said, and so we're able to deal in a
really safe way because the horses end up

01:09:10.360 --> 01:09:12.175
responding a way that feel kinda similar.

01:09:12.255 --> 01:09:14.815
So we can then work through
those relationship struggles on a

01:09:14.815 --> 01:09:16.755
really safe way with the horses.

01:09:17.535 --> 01:09:20.540
And then they go, oh, so they
could be like my My children,

01:09:20.540 --> 01:09:21.500
I'm gonna be like, yeah.

01:09:21.500 --> 01:09:22.780
It's really and think, oh, wow.

01:09:22.780 --> 01:09:23.680
That sounds interesting.

01:09:23.980 --> 01:09:29.485
So that seemed to peak people's interest
that maybe The the parallel to the

01:09:29.485 --> 01:09:33.085
relationship with the horse might be a
parallel to other relationships seem to

01:09:33.085 --> 01:09:33.585
Rupert Isaacson: connect.

01:09:33.805 --> 01:09:34.125
Right.

01:09:34.125 --> 01:09:36.734
Allegorical but but but also real.

01:09:37.910 --> 01:09:43.874
Give me an example of a go to problem
solving exercise that somebody

01:09:43.874 --> 01:09:48.854
might use with with your the with
the modalities that you evolved.

01:09:49.874 --> 01:09:50.319
Lynn Thomas: Right.

01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:55.779
And just so you know, I'm gonna say what
I'm doing now is different, has evolved.

01:09:55.839 --> 01:09:56.159
Okay?

01:09:56.159 --> 01:09:58.756
So I'm gonna tell you from the
beginning, but now Equinix.

01:09:58.756 --> 01:09:59.422
I'm gonna do

01:09:59.644 --> 01:10:01.199
Rupert Isaacson: We're still
we're still back in Igala.

01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:05.195
Lynn Thomas: We're still in the past,
but I I mean, again and I'll I I it's

01:10:05.195 --> 01:10:08.899
not that there's not value to all of
this, but I think What the way I've

01:10:08.899 --> 01:10:12.100
mostly shifted now is more the thought
process behind what you're doing.

01:10:12.100 --> 01:10:12.419
Mhmm.

01:10:12.419 --> 01:10:14.999
But back then, we were
teaching specific activities.

01:10:15.219 --> 01:10:19.204
Here's an activity you can do, and
simple as Go catch and halter a horse,

01:10:19.204 --> 01:10:20.664
but they don't know how to use a halter.

01:10:21.874 --> 01:10:25.174
Here's a jump, and have this
horse go over this jump.

01:10:25.470 --> 01:10:27.250
How a horse go through this path.

01:10:27.709 --> 01:10:32.459
And so it was more that there wasn't
necessarily a real connection to

01:10:33.964 --> 01:10:37.644
relationship back then as much as it
was, here's an activity to try, and

01:10:37.644 --> 01:10:40.624
the horse isn't always gonna do what
you wanna do, so you're gonna struggle.

01:10:41.564 --> 01:10:45.979
And, Um, and you're gonna need you
know, you can work out you have

01:10:45.979 --> 01:10:50.379
the opportunity to work out how to
achieve this objective with this

01:10:50.379 --> 01:10:53.184
horse And find your way of doing it.

01:10:53.884 --> 01:10:56.284
Rupert Isaacson: I presume you
did you give them any basic safety

01:10:56.284 --> 01:11:00.285
tips, like don't shove a fork up
their ass, or something like that?

01:11:00.285 --> 01:11:04.120
I mean, Did did you or do
people really go in cold?

01:11:05.810 --> 01:11:07.589
Lynn Thomas: iT really would
depend on the practitioner.

01:11:08.584 --> 01:11:08.744
Yeah.

01:11:08.744 --> 01:11:10.984
I mean, there would be an
informed consent and talk about

01:11:10.984 --> 01:11:13.624
horses, uh, to a level extent.

01:11:13.624 --> 01:11:18.080
But for most So that it was really
being open because wanting to see the

01:11:18.080 --> 01:11:22.259
real them without too much influence
on us, but then we can intervene.

01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:22.879
Okay.

01:11:22.879 --> 01:11:23.379
Right?

01:11:23.759 --> 01:11:25.264
And say, hey.

01:11:25.264 --> 01:11:28.064
Let's just kinda check out if you
notice what the horse's response

01:11:28.064 --> 01:11:29.684
was to what you did there.

01:11:30.064 --> 01:11:34.909
Rupert Isaacson: And you you wouldn't
say, for example, get this horse over

01:11:34.969 --> 01:11:39.129
your this jump that represents your
relationship with your mother, or the

01:11:39.129 --> 01:11:42.384
jump is your mother, or the The horse
is your mother, and the jump is you.

01:11:42.384 --> 01:11:44.544
You weren't introducing
any language like that.

01:11:44.544 --> 01:11:49.764
You were just simply saying, observe
what happens when you try to do this,

01:11:50.259 --> 01:11:50.759
Lynn Thomas: basically.

01:11:50.899 --> 01:11:51.299
So yeah.

01:11:51.299 --> 01:11:51.539
No.

01:11:51.539 --> 01:11:53.959
We would use metaphorical
language like that too.

01:11:54.019 --> 01:11:57.139
So if if they're having a
struggle with family or work,

01:11:57.139 --> 01:11:58.759
maybe that jump is that struggle.

01:11:58.974 --> 01:11:59.374
Okay.

01:11:59.374 --> 01:11:59.874
Yeah.

01:11:59.934 --> 01:12:00.254
And and

01:12:00.254 --> 01:12:02.094
Rupert Isaacson: so would the
company the struggle, or would

01:12:02.094 --> 01:12:03.394
would the horse be the struggle?

01:12:04.654 --> 01:12:05.794
Lynn Thomas: The horse could be.

01:12:06.189 --> 01:12:06.689
Yeah.

01:12:07.339 --> 01:12:12.730
Like, I remember, because we had with
substance abuse issues, and she really

01:12:12.730 --> 01:12:19.975
wanted to get A relationship with this
one horse, um, and there was a horse that

01:12:19.975 --> 01:12:22.075
kept coming between her and that horse.

01:12:22.530 --> 01:12:23.250
And yeah.

01:12:23.250 --> 01:12:26.530
So the horse that she really
wanted to get was her sobriety, but

01:12:26.530 --> 01:12:29.570
there was another horse that kept
coming between her and that horse.

01:12:29.570 --> 01:12:33.895
And so she labeled that horse, Um,
her friends, her peer pressures

01:12:33.895 --> 01:12:35.675
that gets her to wanna use.

01:12:35.815 --> 01:12:38.535
And then there was a horse that would
come up and just kept bumping behind

01:12:38.535 --> 01:12:43.240
her, like, putting its nose on her
back, nudging her, and she ended up

01:12:43.240 --> 01:12:47.740
labeling, that's her mom that keeps
bugging her to make better decisions.

01:12:48.440 --> 01:12:52.075
And then that kinda plays
out, Um, that scenario.

01:12:52.135 --> 01:12:53.175
So And she

01:12:53.175 --> 01:12:55.895
Rupert Isaacson: offered those mentors
herself rather than the therapist

01:12:55.895 --> 01:12:59.015
saying, do you think that that horse
coming between you and the other

01:12:59.015 --> 01:13:02.330
horse could be your friends, your
peers blocking you from sobriety.

01:13:02.550 --> 01:13:02.870
Right.

01:13:02.870 --> 01:13:05.930
Was that suggested to her or that
she came up with that spontaneously?

01:13:06.870 --> 01:13:07.110
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:13:07.110 --> 01:13:09.670
Well and the facilitators
may would check-in about it.

01:13:09.670 --> 01:13:14.585
But, yeah, They wouldn't put the idea
with the model was that we don't put our

01:13:14.585 --> 01:13:20.070
perceptions and our judgments and our
interpretations on what's happening that

01:13:20.070 --> 01:13:24.390
we really want it to be open for the
client to put their interpretations on it.

01:13:24.390 --> 01:13:27.050
And did you ever That that would
probably that's a main premise.

01:13:27.325 --> 01:13:28.145
Did you find

01:13:28.365 --> 01:13:31.725
Rupert Isaacson: people resistant
to to that, or did you find that

01:13:31.725 --> 01:13:35.905
actually the horses made you talked
about engagement, that the horses

01:13:38.110 --> 01:13:42.430
got brought that out of people in a
way that perhaps humans would not.

01:13:42.430 --> 01:13:48.885
Like, I could imagine taking a bunch of
humans into a room with, say, a bunch

01:13:48.885 --> 01:13:54.140
of cardboard boxes and say, build a
house out of these cardboard boxes, and

01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:57.800
them doing it because they're there.

01:13:57.800 --> 01:13:58.540
Why not?

01:13:58.590 --> 01:14:06.575
But maybe not wanting to come up with
those allegories themselves because

01:14:06.575 --> 01:14:11.270
at the end of the day, You represent
an authority figure that they might

01:14:11.270 --> 01:14:12.790
want to resist or something like that.

01:14:12.790 --> 01:14:18.135
Whereas with the horse, I could see that
that's taken out of the picture, and that

01:14:18.135 --> 01:14:27.100
neutralizes those I mean, why do you think
that people would come up spontaneously

01:14:29.080 --> 01:14:33.355
and engage spontaneously with their own
challenges in that kind of a frank and

01:14:33.355 --> 01:14:36.635
open candid way more easily in that Equine

01:14:36.635 --> 01:14:37.135
Lynn Thomas: environment.

01:14:38.715 --> 01:14:42.720
I think I mean, can you can picture
yourself sitting in front of in an

01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:44.980
office, for instance, and saying, okay.

01:14:45.440 --> 01:14:47.380
What are the struggles in your life?

01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:50.465
What's blocking you from
your success To sobriety.

01:14:50.555 --> 01:14:53.375
Like and it's kinda
like, well, I don't know.

01:14:53.435 --> 01:14:55.754
Or I maybe not be thinking of everything.

01:14:55.754 --> 01:14:59.439
So I think And it's all in your head too.

01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:01.539
So I could say the right things.

01:15:01.599 --> 01:15:03.379
I could believe it in my head even.

01:15:03.519 --> 01:15:03.919
Right.

01:15:03.919 --> 01:15:05.774
It doesn't mean our body believes it.

01:15:06.495 --> 01:15:07.054
And so

01:15:07.214 --> 01:15:09.455
Rupert Isaacson: You can
manipulate a human therapist too.

01:15:09.455 --> 01:15:11.054
I guess you can't manipulate a horse.

01:15:11.054 --> 01:15:11.294
Right?

01:15:11.294 --> 01:15:11.794
Yeah.

01:15:12.174 --> 01:15:12.574
Lynn Thomas: Right.

01:15:12.574 --> 01:15:15.709
And so and you can't I I mean, you're
not training these horses to do that.

01:15:15.709 --> 01:15:17.709
People are like, oh, you train the horses.

01:15:17.709 --> 01:15:18.109
No.

01:15:18.109 --> 01:15:18.349
No.

01:15:18.349 --> 01:15:19.309
They're not trained to do this.

01:15:19.309 --> 01:15:21.964
They're being themselves, and
they just Happened to be playing

01:15:21.964 --> 01:15:25.665
out whatever that's going to be
bringing up for you, right, for them.

01:15:26.284 --> 01:15:33.299
So I think, one, the horses start, doing
things that are a catalyst for awareness

01:15:33.519 --> 01:15:36.944
of things that kinda reside deep inside
that we might not even be thinking of.

01:15:37.025 --> 01:15:39.984
All of a sudden, when this one's
bumping up against me, oh, it

01:15:39.984 --> 01:15:43.284
makes me think of this, and maybe I
wasn't consciously thinking of that.

01:15:43.504 --> 01:15:44.004
Right.

01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:48.499
And so I think and then they then we're
not just thinking it, we're feeling it.

01:15:48.879 --> 01:15:52.319
And we're not just feeling it, we're
seeing it outside of ourselves.

01:15:52.319 --> 01:15:54.334
So So it's not just residing in here.

01:15:54.634 --> 01:15:57.294
I now see it externalized for myself.

01:15:57.594 --> 01:16:03.959
And now I can do some I can you can say,
oh, let's Work on my feelings inside.

01:16:03.959 --> 01:16:05.019
That's very abstract.

01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:10.059
But now my feelings are out here
in the in the body of a horse.

01:16:10.119 --> 01:16:12.554
I That horse is struggling.

01:16:12.694 --> 01:16:13.974
I can go pet the horse.

01:16:13.974 --> 01:16:15.174
I can move the horse.

01:16:15.174 --> 01:16:17.354
I can do something with that feeling.

01:16:17.654 --> 01:16:21.439
And as I'm doing something with that,
I'm feeling it deep inside my body too.

01:16:21.739 --> 01:16:26.219
So I think there's that element of it
being so, yes, you can do projection

01:16:26.219 --> 01:16:30.264
stuff inside your office with the
painting or with the sand tray or with

01:16:30.264 --> 01:16:35.064
play or whatever too, but you don't get
the characters are not responding back.

01:16:35.064 --> 01:16:39.089
The characters are not making
choices Outside of your choices.

01:16:39.789 --> 01:16:40.289
Right?

01:16:40.429 --> 01:16:44.829
That's what the horses can add to
the experience that brings up things

01:16:44.829 --> 01:16:46.029
you may not have been thinking

01:16:46.029 --> 01:16:46.529
Rupert Isaacson: about.

01:16:47.225 --> 01:16:49.565
Do you think that you talk
you used the word catalytic.

01:16:49.705 --> 01:16:55.165
Do you think that that horses make people
more are catalyzers for human curiosity?

01:16:55.739 --> 01:17:01.179
Do you think they make people more
curious about themselves and what's

01:17:01.179 --> 01:17:06.164
going on with themselves because they're
intrinsically Curious about what the horse

01:17:06.164 --> 01:17:12.869
is thinking and doing because the horse
is such a compelling and iconic creature.

01:17:13.409 --> 01:17:17.749
Do you think why do you think why
do you think a horse is catalytic

01:17:18.289 --> 01:17:23.764
to making somebody more curious and
inquire inquiring maybe is perhaps a

01:17:23.764 --> 01:17:27.624
better word about their condition than
they would be if there was no horse.

01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:28.679
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:17:28.679 --> 01:17:30.359
I think curiosity is a big thing.

01:17:30.359 --> 01:17:33.560
And, actually, with what I'm doing
now, that's actually a really big focus

01:17:33.560 --> 01:17:36.040
too of what we have about how they do.

01:17:36.040 --> 01:17:39.724
They are a catalyst for our Curiosity
our natural innate curiosity.

01:17:39.944 --> 01:17:43.704
Like, that's why we watch
TV show movies and books.

01:17:43.704 --> 01:17:45.565
Like, what's gonna happen next?

01:17:45.889 --> 01:17:46.209
Yeah.

01:17:46.209 --> 01:17:50.389
It's that desire to kinda understand
what the future may be too.

01:17:50.689 --> 01:17:55.704
So I think horses absolutely spark
Our natural curiosity because they do

01:17:55.944 --> 01:17:59.624
like I said, they do things that we're
not necessarily asking them to do.

01:17:59.624 --> 01:18:02.104
They do the opposite maybe of
what we think we're asking them

01:18:02.104 --> 01:18:05.650
to do, And that is surprising.

01:18:06.429 --> 01:18:07.409
That's novel.

01:18:07.629 --> 01:18:14.704
That sparks, um, those feelings inside
of us that make us more open to learning

01:18:14.764 --> 01:18:19.504
as well as you mentioned all the
natural calming effects that they have.

01:18:20.030 --> 01:18:23.809
They also sparked that curiosity
and sense of surprise and novelty

01:18:24.189 --> 01:18:25.869
that, like, oh, I didn't expect that.

01:18:25.869 --> 01:18:27.490
Oh, I didn't know they would do that.

01:18:28.095 --> 01:18:28.595
Okay.

01:18:28.734 --> 01:18:32.595
You think it's taking my my my
perspective in a whole new direction.

01:18:32.734 --> 01:18:33.054
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:18:33.054 --> 01:18:33.554
Exactly.

01:18:33.854 --> 01:18:36.675
Because I'm I'm just thinking
about, say, dogs, for example.

01:18:38.839 --> 01:18:39.339
Equinix.

01:18:44.254 --> 01:18:48.034
The, the the social
predators who strategize.

01:18:48.174 --> 01:18:49.214
Their eyes are in front.

01:18:49.214 --> 01:18:59.875
They they have social structures that
are quite similar to ours, There's

01:18:59.875 --> 01:19:05.494
even a theory that we learned to become
hunters when we came down from the

01:19:05.954 --> 01:19:09.509
trees by watching and emulating hyenas,
interestingly interestingly enough.

01:19:09.509 --> 01:19:12.789
There's there's there's a whole
branch of paleontology around that.

01:19:12.789 --> 01:19:16.629
And that that one can see a little
bit because when somebody has a dog,

01:19:16.629 --> 01:19:22.055
you don't really need a background
in dogs to be able to train a dog to

01:19:22.055 --> 01:19:26.979
basic functionality, uh, intuitively
because the dog kinda wants to do

01:19:26.979 --> 01:19:30.180
A dog is mirroring you to a large
degree, but horses don't, of course.

01:19:30.230 --> 01:19:32.170
And the word that came
up for me is enigmatic.

01:19:32.710 --> 01:19:36.330
Do you think that one of the reasons
why they spark our curiosity so much

01:19:36.615 --> 01:19:41.895
is because they are enigmas, because
they don't respond like we respond.

01:19:41.895 --> 01:19:44.475
They don't respond, but
sometimes they do a bit.

01:19:45.190 --> 01:19:50.950
But on the whole, they are so their
own thing that they rather like an

01:19:50.950 --> 01:19:56.324
enigma in one's life that one can't
understand, once addiction, once

01:19:56.324 --> 01:20:00.645
dysfunctions, once impulses that
seem to come almost from outside.

01:20:00.645 --> 01:20:04.440
Or even if they can't seem to come
from inside, Why can't we control them?

01:20:04.440 --> 01:20:05.000
Blah blah blah.

01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:06.760
That's an enigma in and of itself.

01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:07.080
Right?

01:20:07.080 --> 01:20:08.460
Horses are enigmatic.

01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:14.115
They don't we can't read
necessarily their facial emotion.

01:20:14.115 --> 01:20:17.155
Like, you can read a dog's facial
emotions immediately without

01:20:17.155 --> 01:20:18.994
needing to to be trained in dogs.

01:20:18.994 --> 01:20:22.820
But horses, you actually need some
training to be able to read Of course.

01:20:23.360 --> 01:20:23.680
Yeah.

01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:26.720
What I'm fishing for here is do you
think that one of the reasons why

01:20:26.720 --> 01:20:31.624
they spark an unusual amount or they
catalyze an An unusual amount of

01:20:31.624 --> 01:20:36.025
curiosity in a human inquiring after
their mental health is because of this

01:20:36.025 --> 01:20:38.604
enigmatic quality that they are enigmas

01:20:39.224 --> 01:20:39.885
Lynn Thomas: to us.

01:20:40.460 --> 01:20:40.619
Yeah.

01:20:40.619 --> 01:20:43.500
I'd love that thought, and I
absolutely think that's true.

01:20:43.500 --> 01:20:47.864
So, when we talk about our the some
of the new adventures I'm doing With

01:20:47.864 --> 01:20:51.725
Arenas for Change, we are actually
broadening to not just horses.

01:20:52.344 --> 01:20:56.289
And we just did our first scene through
dogs focusing on dogs, corporate dogs

01:20:56.289 --> 01:21:00.869
and and mental health, well-being,
coaching, um, those kinda education.

01:21:01.009 --> 01:21:05.604
So and it was really interesting
to me, like, for For instance, just

01:21:05.604 --> 01:21:08.664
something, one, dogs are more familiar.

01:21:09.124 --> 01:21:11.704
Do you see a lot more
dogs around in cities too?

01:21:11.764 --> 01:21:15.509
Like, I think there's a because
of that level of familiarity

01:21:15.889 --> 01:21:22.034
versus horses, for most people,
there's that Much less familiarity.

01:21:22.174 --> 01:21:25.934
So that novelty and that somewhat
intimidate you know, that's a little

01:21:25.934 --> 01:21:29.589
bit more scary to go into an environment
that you don't Know or understand,

01:21:29.589 --> 01:21:33.669
but that's, of course, one like you
said, one of the values of life.

01:21:33.669 --> 01:21:37.744
Technically, we think we're in control
of our lives, And we think we're

01:21:37.744 --> 01:21:41.764
predicting everything next, but so
often, life is entering into the unknown.

01:21:42.385 --> 01:21:42.784
Mhmm.

01:21:42.784 --> 01:21:45.789
And I think entering into that
experience with horses For a lot

01:21:45.789 --> 01:21:47.329
of people, one is the unknown.

01:21:47.709 --> 01:21:51.229
And the other thing I else with
dogs besides the familiarity is

01:21:51.229 --> 01:21:52.510
a lot of the time they're short.

01:21:52.510 --> 01:21:53.249
They're small.

01:21:53.584 --> 01:21:55.444
You're sitting on the ground.

01:21:56.544 --> 01:21:57.664
You're bending over.

01:21:57.664 --> 01:21:59.024
You're not moving as much.

01:21:59.024 --> 01:22:02.164
Whereas horses, your
your whole body changes.

01:22:02.224 --> 01:22:02.464
Yeah.

01:22:02.464 --> 01:22:02.864
That's true.

01:22:02.864 --> 01:22:03.364
Right?

01:22:03.650 --> 01:22:04.369
You're up.

01:22:04.369 --> 01:22:05.329
You're moving.

01:22:05.329 --> 01:22:05.969
You're walking.

01:22:05.969 --> 01:22:07.010
There's a lot more space.

01:22:07.010 --> 01:22:09.889
Of course, it's easier for you
moving in a lot more space.

01:22:09.889 --> 01:22:10.209
Yeah.

01:22:10.209 --> 01:22:10.634
Yeah.

01:22:11.304 --> 01:22:16.745
anD so I think just that change in dynamic
makes a difference in how our bodies

01:22:16.745 --> 01:22:18.925
move, how our bodies react and respond.

01:22:19.870 --> 01:22:25.650
And then, yeah, because horses are the
unknown, the unfamiliar, and then they

01:22:26.350 --> 01:22:33.645
aren't maybe quite as readily Desire
is to please us, essay, like the dogs.

01:22:35.175 --> 01:22:35.575
Yeah.

01:22:35.575 --> 01:22:38.700
I do absolutely think they
they respond in ways Equinix.

01:22:38.700 --> 01:22:40.640
Even for experienced horse professionals.

01:22:40.860 --> 01:22:41.340
Right?

01:22:41.340 --> 01:22:44.880
Like, they don't always respond in the
ways we think they're gonna respond.

01:22:44.940 --> 01:22:45.615
Oh, no.

01:22:46.655 --> 01:22:49.155
And that's why they always
say, you have to be so present.

01:22:49.295 --> 01:22:50.975
You have to really build on the moment.

01:22:50.975 --> 01:22:54.850
You really have to be listening to
the horse because They're not going

01:22:54.850 --> 01:22:58.289
to react in ways as predictably Yeah.

01:22:58.449 --> 01:23:01.335
As, for instance, dogs might Might do.

01:23:01.335 --> 01:23:04.615
So they do require us and
they could hurt us more.

01:23:04.615 --> 01:23:06.075
I mean, dogs can bite us.

01:23:06.215 --> 01:23:11.475
But, They're a lot bigger, so we have
to be a little bit more I think it no.

01:23:11.475 --> 01:23:15.790
We don't have to, but I think it
encourages us To be a little bit more

01:23:15.930 --> 01:23:21.610
present, a little bit more on our
guard, perhaps, but it teaches us more

01:23:21.610 --> 01:23:25.035
to be more present and listen than
I think some other animals because

01:23:25.035 --> 01:23:25.675
Rupert Isaacson: of that.

01:23:25.675 --> 01:23:26.315
I agree.

01:23:26.315 --> 01:23:27.055
I agree.

01:23:28.895 --> 01:23:35.360
The one one of the things we began
to understand with neuroscience and

01:23:35.360 --> 01:23:40.695
what we do with Hors Boy was that this
this protein in the brain, BDNF, brain

01:23:40.695 --> 01:23:46.890
derived neurotrophic factor, one of five
neurotrophins, but mostly just creating

01:23:46.890 --> 01:23:48.460
more cells in the nervous system.

01:23:48.460 --> 01:23:50.560
This one is specific to brain cells.

01:23:51.210 --> 01:23:54.190
We do it when we move and
problem solve at the same time.

01:23:54.765 --> 01:23:59.965
And, um, one of the things we
realized we'd stumbled into through

01:23:59.965 --> 01:24:04.140
work with horses was that because,
as you say, you have to do all this

01:24:04.140 --> 01:24:06.400
normal movement with your body.

01:24:06.700 --> 01:24:09.820
You have to do more movement
because you gotta walk more.

01:24:09.820 --> 01:24:10.940
You gotta run more.

01:24:10.940 --> 01:24:14.705
You gotta And when you're on them,
you've got balance and you've got to

01:24:15.085 --> 01:24:20.230
that there's a problem to be solved
at every turn that people's intellects

01:24:20.290 --> 01:24:27.346
come alive around horses, perhaps
because of, among other things, the

01:24:27.346 --> 01:24:30.305
fact that they have to move and problem
solve so much, and then this creates

01:24:30.305 --> 01:24:32.085
neuroplasticity, positive neuroplasticity.

01:24:34.680 --> 01:24:38.440
But I and so I suppose the idea of
dealing with an enigma, a moving

01:24:38.440 --> 01:24:41.801
enigma that gives you feedback
that you can't quite understand is

01:24:41.801 --> 01:24:46.186
automatically, I'm gonna give you this
brain derived neurotrophic factor.

01:24:46.186 --> 01:24:46.426
Right?

01:24:46.426 --> 01:24:50.106
It's gonna give you this brain effect
because your brain's just gonna have

01:24:50.106 --> 01:24:51.866
to be on firing, firing, firing.

01:24:51.866 --> 01:24:55.261
And, also, with that little
bit of cortisol, that little

01:24:55.261 --> 01:24:56.461
bit of stress hormone going.

01:24:56.461 --> 01:24:58.481
I also need to stay
alive in this situation.

01:24:58.781 --> 01:25:02.006
There's no direct threat yet,
but I know it could go into that.

01:25:02.006 --> 01:25:05.206
There's always the latent potential
that it could go into that.

01:25:05.206 --> 01:25:08.006
So therefore, I'm I'm I'm
paying particular attention.

01:25:08.006 --> 01:25:09.341
I'm on high alert.

01:25:09.501 --> 01:25:12.541
One last question before because
I want to now move on a little bit

01:25:12.541 --> 01:25:14.161
to where you what you're doing now.

01:25:14.811 --> 01:25:19.546
diD you ever encounter with the Igala work
people becoming frustrated with the the

01:25:19.546 --> 01:25:24.526
very fact that horses are enigmatic and
lashing out at becoming violent with or

01:25:24.666 --> 01:25:26.686
venting their frustration on the horses.

01:25:28.491 --> 01:25:28.991
Lynn Thomas: Yes.

01:25:29.931 --> 01:25:30.431
Yeah.

01:25:31.561 --> 01:25:36.041
I think for the most part as
facilitators with with clients, you

01:25:36.041 --> 01:25:40.156
can kinda see that threshold both
with the horses and with the clients.

01:25:40.776 --> 01:25:42.536
And that's where, again,
you kinda saw, hey.

01:25:42.536 --> 01:25:43.336
Let's come in.

01:25:43.336 --> 01:25:47.721
Let's and that, again,
brings down that That thing.

01:25:47.721 --> 01:25:54.941
But that's, I mean, that's part of how
horses bring out our authentic selves too.

01:25:55.321 --> 01:25:58.796
If If that I mean, we
actually had a member.

01:25:58.796 --> 01:26:00.176
We would do staff trainings.

01:26:00.636 --> 01:26:03.216
We would do staff hiring with the horses.

01:26:04.401 --> 01:26:10.546
And remember this one staff got frustrated
with the horse and hit it, plopped it.

01:26:11.186 --> 01:26:12.386
Didn't really hurt the horse.

01:26:12.386 --> 01:26:12.786
Right?

01:26:12.786 --> 01:26:14.246
Horses can take a lot.

01:26:15.186 --> 01:26:19.151
But it was like, if that's
what you do when you're These

01:26:19.151 --> 01:26:20.351
kids are gonna frustrate you.

01:26:20.351 --> 01:26:21.411
I guarantee it.

01:26:22.781 --> 01:26:28.376
This probably is not this is not the right
fit of of an environment for for you at

01:26:28.376 --> 01:26:29.976
this stage in your life where you're at.

01:26:29.976 --> 01:26:31.366
So, yeah.

01:26:31.366 --> 01:26:35.851
I mean, it definitely horses Horses
are authentic, and I think they can

01:26:36.071 --> 01:26:39.111
push us and bring out some of our
authentic sides that maybe sides

01:26:39.111 --> 01:26:40.651
that we don't even wanna look at.

01:26:40.926 --> 01:26:41.326
Yeah.

01:26:41.326 --> 01:26:41.826
Absolutely.

01:26:41.915 --> 01:26:44.575
And I think that's where it's
important to have facilitators

01:26:44.875 --> 01:26:45.995
that do have that training.

01:26:45.995 --> 01:26:46.735
Like, okay.

01:26:46.875 --> 01:26:50.175
What's important is how we respond
to that, what we do with that.

01:26:51.480 --> 01:26:54.940
And, yes, we're always keeping
in mind the welfare of the horse.

01:26:55.480 --> 01:26:59.080
Are are the horses getting too maybe
this horse is sick of this person

01:26:59.080 --> 01:27:04.045
too, Um, and how we can create that
space where the horses can have

01:27:04.045 --> 01:27:06.705
choice and take care of their needs.

01:27:07.250 --> 01:27:10.450
Rupert Isaacson: How how are typically
horses in a Niigala program being kept?

01:27:10.450 --> 01:27:15.555
Like, for that reason, if they need to
be particularly authentic, Do you then

01:27:15.555 --> 01:27:19.075
require that they live in herds so that
they rather than boxes, for example,

01:27:19.075 --> 01:27:22.515
so that they are more authentic or that
they live outside rather than inside?

01:27:22.515 --> 01:27:24.850
But, of course, That's not always
possible, say, for example,

01:27:24.850 --> 01:27:26.310
if you have an urban program.

01:27:26.720 --> 01:27:31.860
So how do you how do you, a, ensure the
authenticity of the horse's personality

01:27:32.705 --> 01:27:34.485
to be as naturalistic as possible.

01:27:34.785 --> 01:27:38.465
And then how do you also look
after the welfare of the horse in

01:27:38.465 --> 01:27:41.510
terms of the intensity, emotional
intensity of what's going on.

01:27:41.510 --> 01:27:43.450
Do they cycle in and out of the program?

01:27:43.670 --> 01:27:46.630
Do they do a certain number of
sessions and then take a break?

01:27:46.630 --> 01:27:50.655
Like, What what what thought
processes are behind that?

01:27:52.075 --> 01:27:53.515
Lynn Thomas: So how we address that?

01:27:53.515 --> 01:27:56.815
Because like you said, there's so many
different perspectives and environments

01:27:57.500 --> 01:27:59.440
And and to not be too prescriptive.

01:27:59.980 --> 01:28:00.380
Mhmm.

01:28:00.380 --> 01:28:02.060
But one, we'd say, okay.

01:28:02.060 --> 01:28:04.720
There's ethical codes and
welfare codes out there.

01:28:05.175 --> 01:28:08.295
There's the American Horse
Council's welfare code.

01:28:08.295 --> 01:28:12.210
There's the I know in Europe, they
have their The codes out there.

01:28:12.510 --> 01:28:18.270
So one, people would sign that they're,
one, aware of these codes, and two, follow

01:28:18.270 --> 01:28:22.735
these codes, And that that's part of
their mindfulness about the environment.

01:28:23.355 --> 01:28:29.010
I mean, two, we're training that
how you Keep your horses gives a

01:28:29.010 --> 01:28:32.530
message to how you're gonna take
care of your clients and what kind

01:28:32.530 --> 01:28:34.470
of safe is this a safe environment?

01:28:34.850 --> 01:28:37.315
So that consciousness about that.

01:28:37.315 --> 01:28:41.315
So that's part of the training, and it's
part of the commitment and the actual

01:28:41.315 --> 01:28:45.075
role of the equine specialist that they're
committed to as an equine specialist.

01:28:45.075 --> 01:28:49.270
But, Again, like I said, it's never I
mean, people have different opinions.

01:28:49.270 --> 01:28:50.970
That's what I've learned
in the horse world.

01:28:51.190 --> 01:28:53.110
I go here, and this is, like, abusive.

01:28:53.110 --> 01:28:55.335
And over here, they They
don't think that's abusive.

01:28:55.335 --> 01:28:56.935
Like, it's it's that thing.

01:28:56.935 --> 01:29:01.071
So we kinda try to honor the
diversity that's out there.

01:29:01.071 --> 01:29:05.011
In one country, how they keep horses
may be just absolutely appalling to

01:29:05.151 --> 01:29:07.151
someone else in another country even.

01:29:07.151 --> 01:29:11.586
So I think Having those I I think those
welfare codes codes that have come out

01:29:11.586 --> 01:29:17.121
have been really well written, and, it's
kinda more like, here's considerations.

01:29:18.381 --> 01:29:20.461
And so no.

01:29:20.461 --> 01:29:25.046
I mean, we encourage that horses
Artist natural and authentically

01:29:25.106 --> 01:29:28.546
themselves, which by the way, when we
first started, Gallo was cutting edge.

01:29:28.546 --> 01:29:32.991
Like, the idea of horses being able
to be themselves was like, What?

01:29:32.991 --> 01:29:33.951
That's you know?

01:29:33.951 --> 01:29:37.310
Because they're they need to be
trained, and they need to be horses

01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:38.931
have to act this certain way.

01:29:39.756 --> 01:29:43.865
And and so the idea of just natural
horses, letting horses be themselves,

01:29:43.865 --> 01:29:48.611
and how to create that environment is
just, For me, a lot of great discussion,

01:29:50.031 --> 01:29:52.431
consideration, how can we keep doing that.

01:29:52.431 --> 01:29:56.126
So I think it's something that's
a prominent What we did in a gala

01:29:56.126 --> 01:29:59.186
was a prominent consideration
that we actually taught.

01:29:59.726 --> 01:30:02.445
We want horses to be authentically
themselves, but how can they be

01:30:02.445 --> 01:30:04.820
healthy Authentically themselves.

01:30:05.441 --> 01:30:06.800
I mean, I went to a barn.

01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:13.926
We went to do a training one time, and the
horses were so they're competitive horses.

01:30:16.546 --> 01:30:20.086
I won't say because I don't wanna dis
on anybody, but they're competitive

01:30:20.146 --> 01:30:25.831
horses, and they were So, like,
the idea of being free in a space

01:30:26.130 --> 01:30:28.070
with other horses was not possible.

01:30:28.371 --> 01:30:28.771
Yeah.

01:30:28.771 --> 01:30:30.791
Because they were never
allowed to do that.

01:30:32.316 --> 01:30:33.596
And that doesn't fit for us.

01:30:33.596 --> 01:30:39.451
And in fact, the the facility owner
said, well, we can drug them to be Able

01:30:39.451 --> 01:30:41.851
to be doing this, and I was like, okay.

01:30:41.851 --> 01:30:46.491
If if a horse has to be drugged to be
able to be free and naturally itself

01:30:46.491 --> 01:30:50.535
with other herd members, then, this
is not this horse can't do this work.

01:30:51.155 --> 01:30:51.396
Yeah.

01:30:51.396 --> 01:30:52.996
The horse the horse is now a client.

01:30:53.075 --> 01:30:54.756
That right directly in the manual.

01:30:54.756 --> 01:30:55.611
You I was like, okay.

01:30:55.611 --> 01:30:57.051
I never encountered that before.

01:30:57.051 --> 01:30:59.071
That was extreme, but I was like, okay.

01:30:59.131 --> 01:30:59.291
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:30:59.291 --> 01:31:00.751
But these things inform one.

01:31:00.971 --> 01:31:06.686
Do do do now or did it evolve to a point
with a gala where people had to prove

01:31:06.746 --> 01:31:10.986
that they were keeping their horses in
a certain way for you to certify them?

01:31:10.986 --> 01:31:16.590
Or, Like, did they have to show
video or anything like that of their

01:31:16.891 --> 01:31:22.466
horsekeeping environments or submit,
I don't know, their training programs

01:31:22.466 --> 01:31:26.486
or their their their horse welfare and
care program or that sort of thing.

01:31:26.626 --> 01:31:33.380
Or Was it to some degree left on trust,
but you recommended those guidelines

01:31:33.601 --> 01:31:35.221
and and taught those guidelines?

01:31:36.195 --> 01:31:38.996
Lynn Thomas: So we decided, yeah,
to not go that route because of the

01:31:38.996 --> 01:31:44.245
logistics of that at at a larger scale,
especially, and the cost of that.

01:31:45.181 --> 01:31:48.321
So we went the route of
people signing a commitment.

01:31:48.701 --> 01:31:49.201
Mhmm.

01:31:49.821 --> 01:31:55.486
And and then having a system in
place, So ethics process committee

01:31:55.786 --> 01:31:57.326
where people could make complaints.

01:31:57.706 --> 01:31:58.186
Okay.

01:31:58.186 --> 01:32:03.901
There was if they did encounter something
they disagreed or felt was unsafe and

01:32:03.901 --> 01:32:05.661
didn't consider the welfare of the horse.

01:32:05.661 --> 01:32:09.316
So we had a system in place
to actually address Those.

01:32:09.776 --> 01:32:13.936
And, usually, it would involve, like,
if if one like that came in, it would

01:32:13.936 --> 01:32:17.981
involve maybe asking that a veterinarian
goes out and does a check Aquinas.

01:32:18.141 --> 01:32:19.280
Letter from the veterinarian.

01:32:19.501 --> 01:32:23.591
And, so we did that's how we decided
to handle it back with Ygawa.

01:32:23.811 --> 01:32:23.971
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:32:23.971 --> 01:32:24.211
No.

01:32:24.211 --> 01:32:24.951
That makes sense.

01:32:25.466 --> 01:32:29.436
So but if if there was a a complaint,
then you could do follow-up.

01:32:29.735 --> 01:32:30.235
Yeah.

01:32:30.295 --> 01:32:30.775
Okay?

01:32:30.775 --> 01:32:31.275
Yeah.

01:32:31.416 --> 01:32:31.916
Cool.

01:32:33.541 --> 01:32:34.920
We talked a lot about Igala.

01:32:36.661 --> 01:32:42.396
Clearly, you're somebody who not
only a good Systems Thinker, but

01:32:42.396 --> 01:32:47.056
when you come up with a good system,
you then create other good systems.

01:32:47.836 --> 01:32:49.376
I know a few people like you.

01:32:50.501 --> 01:32:51.641
It's a great quality.

01:32:51.730 --> 01:32:56.021
And so you haven't rested on your laurels
with Agala, which you could have done.

01:32:56.191 --> 01:32:57.711
It's a very, very successful model.

01:32:57.711 --> 01:32:59.876
It's helped thousands,
hundreds of thousands probably

01:32:59.876 --> 01:33:01.096
of people around the world.

01:33:02.626 --> 01:33:08.111
You are now doing these two
interesting new things, arenas for

01:33:08.111 --> 01:33:11.891
change and horses for mental health.

01:33:13.751 --> 01:33:19.216
I Want you to tell us about them and
what they do, but first what prompted

01:33:19.216 --> 01:33:21.476
you to change gears like this?

01:33:21.662 --> 01:33:22.142
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:33:22.142 --> 01:33:23.397
I mean, Yeah.

01:33:23.397 --> 01:33:27.317
I had the opportunity and this
amazing journey starting at E Gala

01:33:27.317 --> 01:33:32.972
back in nineteen ninety nine And
then evolving through that with

01:33:32.972 --> 01:33:37.342
that, evolving the model, and up
until the end of twenty twenty.

01:33:38.157 --> 01:33:43.677
And it was kinda one of those things of
unanticipated life events and at the same

01:33:43.677 --> 01:33:46.737
time, things going where they need to go.

01:33:48.182 --> 01:33:48.902
We talked earlier.

01:33:48.902 --> 01:33:53.542
I think you mentioned about the systems
focus, and I have a systems mindset maybe.

01:33:53.542 --> 01:33:57.957
But I think that kind of explains
a lot too of As, one evolves and

01:33:57.957 --> 01:34:02.137
maybe that the organization and what
involves and what's a fit anymore.

01:34:02.437 --> 01:34:08.672
And and I did have some new interests,
new ideas along with just kinda

01:34:08.672 --> 01:34:10.272
things weren't connecting anymore.

01:34:10.272 --> 01:34:14.067
So And, of course, Zigal is a
nonprofit, and there's a board, and

01:34:14.067 --> 01:34:15.507
and they have the authority of things.

01:34:15.507 --> 01:34:19.287
And so it was kinda one of those
scenarios of, well, is this a fit anymore?

01:34:19.712 --> 01:34:24.372
Ultimately, the end of twenty twenty,
myself and a wonderful team of people

01:34:24.432 --> 01:34:28.497
did leave eGala and decide to start
on these new projects that That

01:34:28.497 --> 01:34:33.857
you're mentioning, and that was really
exciting for me because I had some

01:34:33.857 --> 01:34:37.477
interest and some passions that weren't
quite a fit anymore in the system.

01:34:37.772 --> 01:34:38.652
That was a gala.

01:34:38.652 --> 01:34:42.192
And, again, a wonderful system
and and a place for that.

01:34:42.572 --> 01:34:46.817
And, we been twenty one years, so
it's time to maybe do something

01:34:46.817 --> 01:34:48.597
new and start on some new projects.

01:34:49.137 --> 01:34:54.272
So that's where it went, and It was
first the first project was forces

01:34:54.272 --> 01:34:57.952
for mental health that I think I'll
go ahead and mention if you think.

01:34:57.952 --> 01:34:58.152
Or

01:34:58.352 --> 01:34:58.992
Rupert Isaacson: Please do.

01:34:58.992 --> 01:35:00.592
I'm I'm I'll

01:35:00.592 --> 01:35:01.092
Lynn Thomas: wait.

01:35:01.392 --> 01:35:04.097
Because that was one of the big
passions that I was having is I was

01:35:04.097 --> 01:35:07.377
really I mean, we talked about really
trying to get the mental health

01:35:07.377 --> 01:35:10.952
community and the public start to
have more awareness An understanding

01:35:11.172 --> 01:35:14.632
of this type of work and that there
is credibility to this type of work.

01:35:15.252 --> 01:35:19.377
And I think we've come a long way Since
the nineteen nineties when it really

01:35:19.377 --> 01:35:21.317
started more in a more formal way.

01:35:21.817 --> 01:35:23.437
But we have a long ways to go.

01:35:23.737 --> 01:35:28.872
And There was a vision that I was having
along with my cofounder, Jackie Balmer

01:35:28.872 --> 01:35:33.657
of horses for mental health, to really
start a public awareness Campaign in a way

01:35:33.657 --> 01:35:35.677
that would take things to another level.

01:35:35.737 --> 01:35:38.637
I mean, ultimately, there's a
lot of people out there who still

01:35:38.697 --> 01:35:43.232
don't know that horses' Programs
involving mental health services

01:35:43.232 --> 01:35:45.332
and corporate harnesses even exist.

01:35:45.872 --> 01:35:48.352
They don't know anything
about horses as well.

01:35:48.352 --> 01:35:51.887
So we thought, What can we do to
get the word out in a bigger way?

01:35:52.027 --> 01:35:54.927
So we started horses for mental
health as a nonprofit organization

01:35:55.147 --> 01:36:00.012
to amplify awareness of the work that
we do and to also support All the

01:36:00.012 --> 01:36:04.092
many grassroots programs out there
providing these services because it's

01:36:04.092 --> 01:36:05.932
a big sacrifice to do these programs.

01:36:05.932 --> 01:36:10.687
There's a lot of expense running a
horse farm As you were just you know?

01:36:11.147 --> 01:36:13.947
I know you came in from the
snow and and things like that.

01:36:13.947 --> 01:36:15.707
So We have been swimming

01:36:15.707 --> 01:36:16.347
Rupert Isaacson: in poo today.

01:36:16.347 --> 01:36:16.667
Lynn Thomas: Yes.

01:36:16.667 --> 01:36:17.567
It's it's Yeah.

01:36:18.622 --> 01:36:23.262
So there's a lot to it, and I think
anything we can do as a sector to support

01:36:23.262 --> 01:36:29.357
one another, uplift one another, and
help these programs, Who are pioneering

01:36:29.497 --> 01:36:31.677
the way to to bring in more funding.

01:36:31.737 --> 01:36:35.997
So so we started horses for mental
health with that first that that vision.

01:36:36.562 --> 01:36:41.922
And with the plan, the way of going
about doing that is to do a national

01:36:41.922 --> 01:36:46.377
and hopefully, eventually, global
Awareness and fundraising campaign

01:36:46.837 --> 01:36:52.377
as a collaborative effort through
all the leading organizations, other

01:36:53.012 --> 01:36:58.072
businesses, membership organizations,
us all collaborating together,

01:36:58.452 --> 01:37:01.987
and then along with the programs
Altogether because when we're working

01:37:01.987 --> 01:37:03.607
together, our voice is louder.

01:37:03.907 --> 01:37:04.227
Mhmm.

01:37:04.227 --> 01:37:07.527
And we get more credibility,
and we get more recognition.

01:37:07.827 --> 01:37:11.202
And so we started doing this
awareness campaign called the

01:37:11.202 --> 01:37:12.422
seen three horses campaign.

01:37:13.202 --> 01:37:14.342
Tell us about that.

01:37:15.522 --> 01:37:19.147
So the seen three horses campaign
is We call a peer to peer

01:37:19.147 --> 01:37:20.767
awareness and fundraising campaign.

01:37:21.467 --> 01:37:24.107
And what that mean is I I
explain it a couple ways.

01:37:24.107 --> 01:37:28.632
One, for people who have Been on
Facebook and which might be most of

01:37:28.632 --> 01:37:32.792
most of the people, but have been on
Facebook, and they see people with,

01:37:32.792 --> 01:37:37.887
oh, for my birthday, I want to raise
money for this cause I believe in.

01:37:37.887 --> 01:37:38.207
Right.

01:37:38.207 --> 01:37:41.087
Well, when they do that, not only are
they raising money for the cause they

01:37:41.087 --> 01:37:44.662
believe They're bringing awareness to
all their friends and their network.

01:37:44.662 --> 01:37:44.902
Hey.

01:37:44.902 --> 01:37:47.542
There's this cause that
exists, and I believe in it.

01:37:47.542 --> 01:37:47.862
Right.

01:37:47.862 --> 01:37:49.527
And all of a sudden,
their friends went, what?

01:37:49.607 --> 01:37:52.667
Oh, there's a cause that I
may not have known about.

01:37:53.287 --> 01:37:56.407
And so that's what we're trying
to do is create this kind of

01:37:56.407 --> 01:37:59.042
peer to peer network campaign.

01:37:59.182 --> 01:38:03.932
So, it's sometimes a little hard to
explain, but, ultimately, what we're

01:38:03.932 --> 01:38:06.962
doing is we're collaborating with
the leading, Different organizations

01:38:07.022 --> 01:38:11.282
in the sector so that they can reach
out to their network of programs.

01:38:11.342 --> 01:38:17.057
So, like, with your organization,
Rupert, with, Path International or the

01:38:17.057 --> 01:38:21.077
Heard Institute, Natural Livemanship,
and Polyvaginal Equine Institute, and

01:38:21.247 --> 01:38:25.432
of course, Arenas for Change and other
organizations, American Horse Council,

01:38:25.732 --> 01:38:27.272
Horse Human Research Foundation.

01:38:27.732 --> 01:38:31.887
And I know that will keep growing
each year, but When we're all working

01:38:31.887 --> 01:38:33.567
together, first of all, and say, hey.

01:38:33.567 --> 01:38:38.527
Let's do something that's gonna
amplify awareness, then we can go to

01:38:38.527 --> 01:38:44.692
sponsors, and we can go to Supporters
or influencers and celebrities say, hey.

01:38:45.102 --> 01:38:50.028
While maybe we just have a network of
Two thousand or five thousand people.

01:38:50.028 --> 01:38:50.267
Okay.

01:38:50.267 --> 01:38:50.907
That's nice.

01:38:50.907 --> 01:38:52.607
They're not gonna really
pay much attention.

01:38:52.907 --> 01:38:55.308
But now when we're working
together, oh, now we suddenly have

01:38:55.308 --> 01:38:57.167
a network of three hundred thousand.

01:38:57.892 --> 01:38:58.132
Okay.

01:38:58.132 --> 01:39:00.452
Now let's involve the
grassroots programs too.

01:39:00.452 --> 01:39:00.692
Okay.

01:39:00.692 --> 01:39:04.792
Now we have a network of five
hundred thousand and a and a reach.

01:39:05.217 --> 01:39:07.777
Next thing the businesses
and the sponsors pay a little

01:39:07.777 --> 01:39:09.727
more attention, and say, okay.

01:39:09.727 --> 01:39:09.967
Yeah.

01:39:09.967 --> 01:39:11.487
We wanna get on board with this.

01:39:11.487 --> 01:39:12.702
We'll support this.

01:39:13.343 --> 01:39:18.642
And so what we're doing with horses for
mental health is doing all that legwork,

01:39:19.183 --> 01:39:23.247
creating the infrastructure to put on
an awareness and fundraising campaign.

01:39:24.107 --> 01:39:29.712
And what that means is we are Creating
a fundraising plat or providing a

01:39:29.712 --> 01:39:34.113
fundraising platform for nonprofit
and other organizations who provide

01:39:34.113 --> 01:39:35.573
services to be able to utilize.

01:39:35.633 --> 01:39:39.278
We're providing And creating
videos of stories of transformation

01:39:39.278 --> 01:39:40.718
because stories are so powerful.

01:39:40.718 --> 01:39:44.638
We're creating quality professionally
made videos that programs can share.

01:39:44.638 --> 01:39:49.153
We create a whole Calendar of here's
what you can post on your social media,

01:39:50.013 --> 01:39:53.053
and we're bringing in media attention.

01:39:53.053 --> 01:39:55.738
We're bringing in celebrities,
influencers, we're doing this

01:39:55.738 --> 01:39:57.418
altogether during the month of May.

01:39:57.418 --> 01:40:01.038
We we decided to go with May, which
is mental health awareness month.

01:40:01.418 --> 01:40:01.918
Okay.

01:40:02.088 --> 01:40:08.503
We we did our first one in October of
twenty twenty two for one week, and

01:40:08.503 --> 01:40:11.703
it went much better than expected,
but we also realized one week was

01:40:11.703 --> 01:40:16.208
not enough time to really Mobilize
everyone, get all this information.

01:40:16.268 --> 01:40:19.088
We had all these videos to share,
and it was just like a frenzy.

01:40:19.148 --> 01:40:21.553
So we decided to make it a full month.

01:40:22.273 --> 01:40:27.653
May was chosen, um, and we did our
second one in twenty twenty three.

01:40:28.728 --> 01:40:31.768
And in that process, the
nonprofit organizations are

01:40:31.768 --> 01:40:33.068
raising money for themselves.

01:40:33.128 --> 01:40:34.888
They're creating teams of people.

01:40:34.888 --> 01:40:35.288
Hey.

01:40:35.288 --> 01:40:38.782
We have a Fundraising team, ambassadors
that are going out and saying, hey.

01:40:38.782 --> 01:40:41.363
I believe in this cause,
this particular program.

01:40:41.823 --> 01:40:44.163
They involve horses for
mental health and well-being.

01:40:45.157 --> 01:40:49.238
Please support them by donating
money to them, and then that's

01:40:49.238 --> 01:40:51.178
spreading awareness at the same time.

01:40:51.638 --> 01:40:53.337
And so they're raising money.

01:40:53.532 --> 01:40:54.913
It's getting more awareness.

01:40:55.213 --> 01:40:58.752
The celebrities and influencers
that we got on board are also

01:40:58.972 --> 01:41:02.008
posting on their social media to
their one million Followers or

01:41:02.008 --> 01:41:03.548
hundreds of thousands of followers.

01:41:03.928 --> 01:41:04.648
Hey, everybody.

01:41:04.648 --> 01:41:07.848
That you may have never even heard
of this before, but I believe

01:41:07.848 --> 01:41:11.148
in the power of horses that the
horses can impact people's lives.

01:41:11.433 --> 01:41:15.113
And there are programs out there who
provide these services, and it's something

01:41:15.113 --> 01:41:16.733
you might wanna check into and support.

01:41:17.512 --> 01:41:22.108
So are we just getting a lot broader
a lot More quickly and by working

01:41:22.108 --> 01:41:24.127
together, we're all stronger.

01:41:24.668 --> 01:41:26.348
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask you
a couple of questions on this

01:41:26.348 --> 01:41:31.762
because, if I hope that listeners'
ears are breaking up on this one.

01:41:32.223 --> 01:41:36.418
So let me just translate what you just
heard a little bit my listeners, if

01:41:36.418 --> 01:41:40.578
you are running an equine assisted
program somewhere, which you may

01:41:40.578 --> 01:41:46.093
well be, um, and you are on the
hunt for cash, which you will be.

01:41:47.703 --> 01:41:51.488
Basically, what Lynn is saying is that
here's a fundraising program for you and

01:41:51.488 --> 01:42:00.733
an awareness raising raising program for
you and also, a celebrity involvement, um,

01:42:00.733 --> 01:42:06.998
a program for you without you having to do
much more than do what you do and be who

01:42:06.998 --> 01:42:10.438
you are, she's creating a wonderful plan.

01:42:10.438 --> 01:42:11.738
This isn't this is incredible.

01:42:13.303 --> 01:42:16.043
This is this is something
absolutely groundbreaking.

01:42:16.903 --> 01:42:20.603
So now I've got a couple
of practical questions.

01:42:20.938 --> 01:42:21.258
Okay.

01:42:21.258 --> 01:42:22.378
So I'm driving my car.

01:42:22.378 --> 01:42:23.178
I'm going, oh my gosh.

01:42:23.178 --> 01:42:27.128
I've got this, a a quantitative program
over here in this place that I live.

01:42:27.643 --> 01:42:37.098
And, um, how do I, as a small, um,
struggling, uh, equine assisted program,

01:42:38.438 --> 01:42:42.518
uh, get in contact with horses for
mental health and get myself up on this

01:42:42.518 --> 01:42:47.063
seen through horses thing because when
you talk about going through the larger

01:42:47.063 --> 01:42:51.013
organizations even if it's a smaller
organization like mine, like Horsepower

01:42:51.013 --> 01:42:55.148
Foundation or whatever, um, obviously, we
have a set each one has a certain number

01:42:55.148 --> 01:42:59.148
of programs under their AEGIS, under their
umbrella, but we all know that there's a

01:42:59.148 --> 01:43:03.533
lot of programs out there struggling by
themselves, and we also know that the the

01:43:03.533 --> 01:43:09.018
larger organizations can be very political
and often factional one to the other

01:43:09.268 --> 01:43:11.208
unfortunately, but it's human nature.

01:43:11.508 --> 01:43:16.463
And scarcity mentality can very quickly
kick in, and people start trying to

01:43:16.463 --> 01:43:20.193
block each other from because they they
think, oh, it's you know, there's just a

01:43:20.193 --> 01:43:23.233
a a certain pot of money out there and,
if they get it, then I won't get it.

01:43:23.233 --> 01:43:24.533
We know that that's erroneous.

01:43:24.678 --> 01:43:24.998
Right.

01:43:24.998 --> 01:43:28.218
But we know, unfortunately, that
that has led to a certain toxicity

01:43:28.708 --> 01:43:30.888
within our own world of the Equinixys.

01:43:31.108 --> 01:43:36.042
What what I love about what you're doing
is you're going over that and saying, no.

01:43:36.042 --> 01:43:36.203
No.

01:43:36.203 --> 01:43:36.443
No.

01:43:36.443 --> 01:43:39.023
Chaps, we gotta stand together.

01:43:39.883 --> 01:43:47.328
So but if someone is not necessarily
affiliated with a big organization,

01:43:50.023 --> 01:43:55.723
even if they are, but they want to act
independently or reach out themselves

01:43:55.863 --> 01:43:58.423
to horses for mental health, how do they

01:43:58.423 --> 01:43:59.083
Lynn Thomas: do that?

01:44:00.698 --> 01:44:01.178
Yeah.

01:44:01.178 --> 01:44:04.538
And I love what you're sharing there
because I think with this kind of

01:44:04.538 --> 01:44:09.473
infrastructure like this, we're creating a
platform for collaboration and that, Yeah.

01:44:09.473 --> 01:44:14.933
Getting over that mindset of scarcity
into a rising tide lifts all boats.

01:44:14.983 --> 01:44:18.443
When we work together, we're all
stronger, and we're all more successful.

01:44:19.048 --> 01:44:23.118
So people can con go to our website,
horses for mental health dot org.

01:44:23.498 --> 01:44:26.318
You can get information
there or our social media.

01:44:26.728 --> 01:44:30.153
Sign up for our email list so that you're
staying updated on what we're doing.

01:44:30.153 --> 01:44:32.893
Because like I said, we just
started in twenty twenty one.

01:44:33.113 --> 01:44:37.113
And I'll I'll be I I actually was
because this has been a vision for the

01:44:37.113 --> 01:44:42.097
last, I don't know, five or something
years, and it just has been block

01:44:42.097 --> 01:44:43.957
after block and hasn't been happening.

01:44:44.017 --> 01:44:48.792
And We started horses for mental health
as the structure for it to happen

01:44:48.792 --> 01:44:53.497
in, and then all of a sudden, things
started happening that I I was It was

01:44:53.497 --> 01:44:55.337
like it was meant to be kinda thing.

01:44:55.337 --> 01:44:59.037
We got a wonderful sponsor, Zoetis,
which is an animal pharmaceutical

01:44:59.258 --> 01:45:02.102
company, And they've been so supportive.

01:45:02.102 --> 01:45:05.463
And as we've partnered with Equine
Network, which is a equine media

01:45:05.463 --> 01:45:08.443
company, and they do events as well
and have a lot of publications.

01:45:09.577 --> 01:45:14.537
And between those relationships,
gave us the resources and to be able

01:45:14.537 --> 01:45:15.997
to move forward with this project.

01:45:16.273 --> 01:45:18.852
And we're always trying we're
we're coming up with new ideas.

01:45:19.153 --> 01:45:20.612
It's gonna grow each year.

01:45:21.022 --> 01:45:22.223
So get on our mailing list.

01:45:22.223 --> 01:45:23.103
That's step one.

01:45:23.103 --> 01:45:24.727
Go to horses for mental health dot org.

01:45:24.807 --> 01:45:26.187
Get on our mailing list.

01:45:26.327 --> 01:45:28.827
Keep up with our emails
and and our announcements.

01:45:29.527 --> 01:45:34.382
We are gearing up for our twenty twenty
four campaign, Which will be in May.

01:45:34.382 --> 01:45:38.162
However applications to be a charity
partner, which is one of the grassroots

01:45:38.402 --> 01:45:42.107
one of your programs, Maybe you wanna
get involved formally as a charity

01:45:42.107 --> 01:45:45.067
partner, which means you're gonna
set up a team, and you're gonna be

01:45:45.067 --> 01:45:47.067
part of the fundraising efforts.

01:45:47.067 --> 01:45:50.972
The fundraising goes to your
program that you do, Um, but we

01:45:50.972 --> 01:45:54.512
provide all the resource resources,
and we provide training for you.

01:45:55.082 --> 01:45:58.142
The applications are happening
right now until January

01:45:58.202 --> 01:45:59.697
twenty second is The deadline.

01:46:00.077 --> 01:46:00.577
Oh.

01:46:01.197 --> 01:46:01.597
Yeah.

01:46:01.597 --> 01:46:05.197
So I don't know when this is coming
out, but but just keep on our

01:46:05.197 --> 01:46:05.677
Rupert Isaacson: mailing list.

01:46:05.677 --> 01:46:07.837
We will put this out as
quickly as we can then.

01:46:07.837 --> 01:46:10.192
We we are now in December, what is it?

01:46:10.192 --> 01:46:12.292
December sixth that we're
having this conversation?

01:46:13.072 --> 01:46:15.312
And you're saying January
the what is the deadline?

01:46:15.312 --> 01:46:17.502
Lynn Thomas: Twenty sec I
think January twenty second.

01:46:17.502 --> 01:46:18.062
We got about

01:46:18.062 --> 01:46:19.807
Rupert Isaacson: six weeks
from this conversation Yeah.

01:46:19.887 --> 01:46:20.047
The

01:46:20.047 --> 01:46:20.527
Lynn Thomas: deadline.

01:46:20.527 --> 01:46:24.127
Now I'm gonna preface this as
saying that right now, for the

01:46:24.127 --> 01:46:26.867
charity partners, we are US focused.

01:46:27.342 --> 01:46:31.022
And, um, for this year,
again, we're gonna be US.

01:46:31.022 --> 01:46:35.342
So if you're a US based program now
the reason is just because of our

01:46:35.342 --> 01:46:39.807
resources and being able to Support
the programs so that you are as

01:46:39.807 --> 01:46:41.827
successful as possible in the campaign.

01:46:42.047 --> 01:46:48.012
However, it is our vision, and I'm hoping
in twenty twenty five That we will expand

01:46:48.012 --> 01:46:50.892
it to include several different yeah.

01:46:50.892 --> 01:46:51.532
The globe.

01:46:51.532 --> 01:46:55.967
We wanna include the globe and be able
to have the resources to Support each of

01:46:55.967 --> 01:46:58.147
the programs in in the campaign journey.

01:46:58.207 --> 01:46:58.527
So

01:46:59.087 --> 01:47:01.727
Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe that's a
conversation that you and I can have then

01:47:01.727 --> 01:47:10.102
because, obviously, with Horse Boy, we we
work in quite a few countries and there's

01:47:10.102 --> 01:47:16.257
different needs and different setups in
each place, it varies quite a lot how

01:47:16.257 --> 01:47:18.707
things present which I find fascinating.

01:47:19.327 --> 01:47:22.582
But I would imagine that the corporate
structures in in terms of looking for

01:47:22.582 --> 01:47:29.542
sponsors and celebrities, we could
widen our net considerably if we were

01:47:29.542 --> 01:47:35.437
to look in different nationalities
for that as well particularly Germany.

01:47:35.737 --> 01:47:36.057
Yeah.

01:47:36.057 --> 01:47:41.792
I know that that would be very I
mean, but also Ireland is extremely

01:47:41.792 --> 01:47:46.512
cutting edge when it comes to, uh,
institutional support of equine

01:47:46.512 --> 01:47:52.357
programs, unusually so, I I I've been
rather amazed in in the work there.

01:47:52.607 --> 01:47:55.837
Also the UK, also the Netherlands
Scandinavia, etcetera.

01:47:55.837 --> 01:47:57.952
So maybe we should have that conversation.

01:47:57.952 --> 01:47:59.632
But okay.

01:47:59.632 --> 01:48:05.977
Listeners, if you are a US based equine
organization, get onto this horses for

01:48:05.977 --> 01:48:09.917
mental health website and start looking
because this could really help you.

01:48:10.457 --> 01:48:13.357
Also, my what I would
also say is do not panic.

01:48:13.702 --> 01:48:16.902
And if you and try desperately
to get in by next May.

01:48:16.902 --> 01:48:20.582
If you realize that it's gonna
take a little more time, let

01:48:20.582 --> 01:48:21.497
it take a little more time.

01:48:21.657 --> 01:48:24.137
Presume you'll be doing one in
twenty twenty five as well, Lynn.

01:48:24.137 --> 01:48:24.457
Is that

01:48:24.457 --> 01:48:24.957
Lynn Thomas: correct?

01:48:25.817 --> 01:48:26.137
Yeah.

01:48:26.137 --> 01:48:31.532
Our goal is that this is an annual event,
and, The experience with other sectors

01:48:31.532 --> 01:48:34.492
who've done these types of things, so
other nonprofit sectors, nothing like

01:48:34.492 --> 01:48:37.417
this has actually been done in the
equine industry that we're aware of.

01:48:37.817 --> 01:48:41.657
So this has been cutting edge and
to get some of the companies and

01:48:41.657 --> 01:48:44.857
everybody on board to understand what
we're trying to do in the vision.

01:48:44.857 --> 01:48:48.412
So that's why it's been so great that
Zoetis and network jumped on board

01:48:48.412 --> 01:48:51.932
really quickly for a brand new, and
we were brand new organization too.

01:48:51.932 --> 01:48:53.152
So that was exciting.

01:48:53.532 --> 01:48:54.892
And it will grow each year.

01:48:54.892 --> 01:48:58.517
And I think the main thing is even
if you're not formal charity partner

01:48:58.897 --> 01:49:02.337
being part of that aspect of it,
the vision of this is to amplify

01:49:02.337 --> 01:49:04.097
awareness, and we can all do that.

01:49:04.097 --> 01:49:08.022
If we're all sharing on our social media,
we're creating these wonderful videos.

01:49:08.022 --> 01:49:12.102
And if you find a video that you see
that is touches you and represents

01:49:12.102 --> 01:49:15.547
your program well and the kind of
work that you do, Please share it.

01:49:15.547 --> 01:49:16.767
Put it on your website.

01:49:16.907 --> 01:49:18.287
Share it on social media.

01:49:18.747 --> 01:49:21.727
And when we're especially doing
altogether, it impacts the algorithms

01:49:21.867 --> 01:49:26.962
and I that's all Language I don't really
know, but I have this amazing team who

01:49:26.962 --> 01:49:32.397
has background and experience doing these
kinds of large Sector wide campaigns,

01:49:32.617 --> 01:49:34.397
and they are absolutely amazing.

01:49:34.857 --> 01:49:35.897
So please share it.

01:49:35.897 --> 01:49:39.992
Get involved in spreading the
word because, again, it lifts all

01:49:39.992 --> 01:49:41.352
of our programs when we do that.

01:49:41.352 --> 01:49:41.752
I think

01:49:41.752 --> 01:49:44.472
Rupert Isaacson: what we should do,
Lynn, if it's alright with you then, is

01:49:44.472 --> 01:49:50.007
every year, when you begin the horses
for mental health call for submissions,

01:49:51.667 --> 01:49:53.447
um, I think we should do this podcast.

01:49:53.507 --> 01:49:57.352
I think we should repeat this because
each year, there'll be new people

01:49:57.352 --> 01:50:01.692
coming in, and this is a call to arms,
which I think can't just happen once.

01:50:03.187 --> 01:50:06.227
I think, we need to get as
much media behind it as we can.

01:50:06.227 --> 01:50:07.527
You talked about celebrities.

01:50:08.417 --> 01:50:11.077
wHat celebrity involvement
have you managed to get so far?

01:50:13.232 --> 01:50:13.472
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:50:13.472 --> 01:50:17.302
We've for especially being so
new, we've gotten some wonderful

01:50:17.362 --> 01:50:18.822
celebrities and influence involved.

01:50:19.647 --> 01:50:22.727
Probably the more well known,
maybe, Randy Travis Okay.

01:50:22.927 --> 01:50:24.047
The country singer.

01:50:24.047 --> 01:50:26.227
Tanya Tucker, country singer.

01:50:27.452 --> 01:50:33.002
We have some other actors,
Riley Smith, born boy sorry.

01:50:33.002 --> 01:50:38.347
Bork Floyd Sophie Grace, And
then we have others, singers.

01:50:38.647 --> 01:50:44.502
We have a, Emmy award winning fashion
designer, Um, songwriter, people

01:50:44.502 --> 01:50:48.342
like that that have been really,
really supportive along the way.

01:50:48.342 --> 01:50:50.427
So We also I mean, it's funny.

01:50:50.427 --> 01:50:56.652
I was on a podcast, um, where they asked
me, who would I wanna go meet dinner Go

01:50:56.652 --> 01:51:00.252
to dinner with and I do not know why this
came out of my mouth because, like, okay.

01:51:00.252 --> 01:51:04.832
I coulda said, like, mother
Teresa or the pope or something.

01:51:04.972 --> 01:51:05.292
No.

01:51:05.292 --> 01:51:07.837
I said, Kevin Costner.

01:51:07.837 --> 01:51:08.897
I said Kevin Costner.

01:51:08.957 --> 01:51:09.777
I don't know.

01:51:10.157 --> 01:51:11.617
It's like, oh, I'm a big fan.

01:51:11.837 --> 01:51:13.517
Yellowstone, I'm a fan of Yellowstone.

01:51:13.517 --> 01:51:17.102
Wouldn't it be so cool if we could get
the Cast of Yellowstone on board with

01:51:17.662 --> 01:51:21.102
because they've really, opened up that
western genre and the horses again

01:51:21.102 --> 01:51:22.782
out there in the world in a big way.

01:51:22.782 --> 01:51:23.747
I agree.

01:51:23.907 --> 01:51:28.517
And well, sure enough, we happen
to get Forrie j Smith on board.

01:51:28.577 --> 01:51:32.097
He is one of the cast members of
Yellowstone, and that was in our this

01:51:32.097 --> 01:51:35.602
year's Twenty twenty three campaign,
and I was just, like, so excited.

01:51:36.222 --> 01:51:39.762
And we're excited because then, of
course, that that connects us to,

01:51:40.717 --> 01:51:44.577
Two other cast members and and, of
course, the director and producer.

01:51:44.717 --> 01:51:49.022
So, very excited about the possibilities
there, but We know it'll keep

01:51:49.022 --> 01:51:52.222
growing because word spreads, and
then we get credibility that this is

01:51:52.222 --> 01:51:54.482
a legit and a successful campaign.

01:51:56.127 --> 01:51:59.967
And, again, what's been neat and what
my team has shared with me too with

01:51:59.967 --> 01:52:06.372
compared to other campaigns, what they've
experienced is, One, the collaborative

01:52:06.672 --> 01:52:09.492
energy in our sector has been amazing.

01:52:09.952 --> 01:52:10.272
Mhmm.

01:52:10.272 --> 01:52:13.297
One of the biggest challenges of putting
on campaigns is exactly what you said.

01:52:13.297 --> 01:52:16.897
One, the competitive nature and
the scarcity mindset and people

01:52:16.897 --> 01:52:18.017
not wanting to collaborate.

01:52:18.017 --> 01:52:21.932
And we haven't experienced that with
our programs and with our organizations

01:52:22.152 --> 01:52:26.952
out there, there has been an embrace
of this campaign, which has been so

01:52:26.952 --> 01:52:31.467
fun and so exciting and And gratifying
that people hold those values.

01:52:31.847 --> 01:52:34.507
And then the second thing is with
the celebrities and influencers

01:52:34.647 --> 01:52:38.427
is how excited and passionate
they have been to get on board.

01:52:38.902 --> 01:52:42.262
Again, a lot of times their experience in
other campaigns have been you really have

01:52:42.262 --> 01:52:47.617
to it's really not easy to get to get them
on board and these kind of campaigns, and

01:52:47.617 --> 01:52:50.597
then to actually post and be active in it.

01:52:50.817 --> 01:52:51.057
Mhmm.

01:52:51.057 --> 01:52:52.517
And we've experienced the opposite.

01:52:52.872 --> 01:52:55.992
They they are passionate about
horses, and they are passionate

01:52:55.992 --> 01:52:58.712
about mental health, and that has
really gotten people on board.

01:52:58.712 --> 01:53:01.292
And they have posted, and
they have shared videos.

01:53:01.977 --> 01:53:05.597
And it has been absolutely
a phenomenal experience.

01:53:05.657 --> 01:53:09.597
So we know that it's just
gonna keep growing each year.

01:53:13.662 --> 01:53:16.622
Rupert Isaacson: So the bottom line is
is someone could be driving in their car

01:53:16.622 --> 01:53:25.417
right now, who's running a program, right,
and could basically have you or horses

01:53:25.417 --> 01:53:29.902
for mental health, you, being Horses for
Mental Health, effectively fundraised

01:53:29.902 --> 01:53:35.957
for them, an awareness raise for them,
and alongside with them, everybody else

01:53:36.977 --> 01:53:44.252
in our I hate to call it industry, but
let's say in our field, I don't think

01:53:44.252 --> 01:53:49.472
I've heard of anybody doing anything like
this outside of private philanthropy,

01:53:49.722 --> 01:53:54.048
where perhaps someone really hears about
a particular program and says, okay.

01:53:54.048 --> 01:53:55.348
I'm gonna get behind this.

01:53:55.888 --> 01:54:00.048
But somebody who's struggling
could contact horses for mental

01:54:00.048 --> 01:54:02.943
health, create a video, submit it.

01:54:03.483 --> 01:54:12.738
And have you stand a chance of having
you guys help them take their course to

01:54:12.738 --> 01:54:14.918
the wider audience, is is is that right?

01:54:16.498 --> 01:54:16.898
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

01:54:16.898 --> 01:54:19.698
And and I appreciate that you
can clarify because we're not

01:54:19.698 --> 01:54:21.683
doing For, we're doing it with.

01:54:21.683 --> 01:54:21.923
Right.

01:54:21.923 --> 01:54:24.403
And I think that's really important
because I think sometimes we're

01:54:24.403 --> 01:54:28.017
like, oh, we're gonna just come be
a charity partner, and we'll just

01:54:28.177 --> 01:54:31.217
Do nothing, and somehow money's
just gonna miraculously come to us.

01:54:31.217 --> 01:54:31.537
No.

01:54:31.537 --> 01:54:33.877
This is about all of us
putting in the effort.

01:54:33.938 --> 01:54:34.337
Okay.

01:54:34.337 --> 01:54:35.777
We're just creating an education.

01:54:35.777 --> 01:54:39.572
We're providing the Creating the platform,
we're creating the infrastructure.

01:54:39.792 --> 01:54:44.837
So, I I'm glad you you clarified
That part of it because, it's

01:54:44.837 --> 01:54:46.997
not just we're directing money.

01:54:46.997 --> 01:54:50.037
It's like by doing it
together, by you posting.

01:54:50.037 --> 01:54:54.822
You you take the effort To schedule
some posts or share with your

01:54:54.822 --> 01:54:57.222
friends or put in an email, hey.

01:54:57.222 --> 01:55:02.408
This work is powerful, Then that that's
meaningful, but it does take time.

01:55:02.547 --> 01:55:02.787
Right?

01:55:02.787 --> 01:55:03.827
It does take effort.

01:55:03.827 --> 01:55:07.292
So, the neat thing is, like I said,
yeah, you can go to our website.

01:55:07.292 --> 01:55:08.092
I should have mentioned too.

01:55:08.092 --> 01:55:12.332
Can you go to our stories page, and
we have our celebrities and influences

01:55:12.332 --> 01:55:15.847
on there along with their stories
that Of why horses are so meaningful

01:55:15.847 --> 01:55:19.787
for them and their and mental health,
and we also have videos on there.

01:55:20.037 --> 01:55:24.582
To to do all that, to create that kind
of infrastructure, Pretty much most of

01:55:24.582 --> 01:55:27.802
all of our individual programs would
not have the resources to do that.

01:55:27.862 --> 01:55:28.182
Right.

01:55:28.182 --> 01:55:31.622
There's just I mean, the amount
of money that it takes to do what

01:55:31.622 --> 01:55:33.242
we're doing to create this campaign.

01:55:33.367 --> 01:55:34.487
The There's no way.

01:55:34.487 --> 01:55:38.327
But by doing it together and by getting
the bigger sponsors that we've been able

01:55:38.327 --> 01:55:43.112
to get because we're doing it together,
Then we can, have the money have that

01:55:43.112 --> 01:55:47.852
money to put all this stuff together
to support all of all of the programs.

01:55:47.912 --> 01:55:50.092
So but, yeah, it's it's a joint effort.

01:55:50.217 --> 01:55:50.537
Yeah.

01:55:50.537 --> 01:55:51.177
So if somebody

01:55:51.177 --> 01:55:54.207
Rupert Isaacson: wants to participate
in this with their program let's

01:55:54.207 --> 01:55:57.772
say they go and they create a
video, are there some parameters?

01:55:57.912 --> 01:56:00.552
And then they they said they
get they send you that video.

01:56:00.552 --> 01:56:00.792
Right?

01:56:00.792 --> 01:56:08.247
And then, also, uh, you help them
encourage them to get it out on their

01:56:08.247 --> 01:56:14.222
and other people's social media, do you
do you provide some guidance on how to

01:56:14.222 --> 01:56:17.532
make a video like this because, I mean,
a lot of people just have no idea even

01:56:17.532 --> 01:56:20.432
though we've all got cell phones now
that have very good cameras on them.

01:56:22.398 --> 01:56:28.337
Do you is there some guidance for how
to put a short video together and how to

01:56:28.932 --> 01:56:32.932
put things out on social media in this
way because I I think for many of us who

01:56:32.932 --> 01:56:37.012
are dinosaurs like me I mean, obviously,
I grew up when mastodon still bellowed

01:56:37.012 --> 01:56:42.077
to mastodon Across the Primeval Swamp
and somewhat before the invention of

01:56:42.077 --> 01:56:48.463
the wheel so as an analog person trying
to work in a digital age, sometimes

01:56:48.463 --> 01:56:50.473
I get a little bit oogled and oogled.

01:56:50.473 --> 01:56:52.473
Like, the only reason I can do
this podcast is because my wife,

01:56:52.473 --> 01:56:55.658
Eliana, used to work for IBM
and knows how to do this stuff.

01:56:55.658 --> 01:56:57.118
Otherwise, I'd be completely lost.

01:56:57.178 --> 01:57:00.218
So a lot of us are a bit
old school like that.

01:57:00.218 --> 01:57:05.663
How do we old schoolers create these
things, can can is there some guidance?

01:57:05.963 --> 01:57:08.923
Is the guidance just, well, go get some
young people that know how to do it?

01:57:08.923 --> 01:57:12.198
Or what yeah.

01:57:12.578 --> 01:57:13.858
How do we get help to do

01:57:13.858 --> 01:57:14.358
Lynn Thomas: this?

01:57:15.858 --> 01:57:16.358
Yeah.

01:57:17.963 --> 01:57:21.643
We actually do trainings for the
charity partners, and, eventually,

01:57:21.643 --> 01:57:24.602
we're gonna get that on our website
so everyone has access to them.

01:57:24.602 --> 01:57:27.023
That's just, one of those
things on the list to do.

01:57:27.658 --> 01:57:31.898
So we do train in social media and
and things like what you're talking

01:57:31.898 --> 01:57:33.278
about with helping create videos.

01:57:33.338 --> 01:57:37.623
Now I will clarify that horses from
mental health is actually producing

01:57:37.683 --> 01:57:42.338
some videos that we're producing that
are very professionally made that That

01:57:42.338 --> 01:57:44.978
the programs can also utilize to share.

01:57:44.978 --> 01:57:48.018
Whether you're a charity partner or
not, anyone can share those videos.

01:57:48.018 --> 01:57:48.338
So you could

01:57:48.498 --> 01:57:50.573
Rupert Isaacson: they could
they could use the videos that

01:57:50.573 --> 01:57:53.773
you've made to help themselves
fundraise, say, this is the field.

01:57:53.773 --> 01:57:54.913
This is what we do.

01:57:55.693 --> 01:57:56.093
Lynn Thomas: Yes.

01:57:56.093 --> 01:57:56.593
Yes.

01:57:56.653 --> 01:58:00.918
And so we've created Some different
feature videos that are, around the

01:58:00.918 --> 01:58:04.838
five minute range, we've created
then also, if anyone's seen them

01:58:04.838 --> 01:58:06.598
yet or not, the animated videos.

01:58:06.598 --> 01:58:10.423
So we are getting Case stories
from different programs, and we

01:58:10.423 --> 01:58:16.038
turn those case stories into a
three minute animated, Story.

01:58:16.038 --> 01:58:20.518
So that's it's always, again, very
interesting process to go and try to

01:58:20.518 --> 01:58:25.233
take a story, a case experience, and
make it Three minutes where it has an

01:58:25.233 --> 01:58:30.193
emotional impact where people understand
how how this can work, and we use the

01:58:30.193 --> 01:58:34.158
animation one because of confidentiality,
and it's a great way to Tell a story.

01:58:34.538 --> 01:58:38.558
And it's also been fun, going to other
countries now and realizing, actually,

01:58:38.938 --> 01:58:43.303
these animated videos could fit for Any
country, any culture, we literally would

01:58:43.303 --> 01:58:45.003
just need to do a different voice over.

01:58:45.143 --> 01:58:45.643
Right.

01:58:45.893 --> 01:58:49.173
And so that's exciting that we
hope to do in the future as well.

01:58:49.173 --> 01:58:50.638
So, Yeah.

01:58:50.638 --> 01:58:53.438
So we're telling these stories
of transformation in a way that

01:58:53.438 --> 01:58:57.298
hopefully highlights that is our
goal is to highlight the unique

01:58:57.518 --> 01:59:01.093
impact that horses bring to
people's journey of transformation.

01:59:01.713 --> 01:59:02.113
When you're

01:59:02.113 --> 01:59:03.313
Rupert Isaacson: doing these sorry.

01:59:03.313 --> 01:59:04.833
I I just I got a question there.

01:59:04.833 --> 01:59:09.608
When you're doing these these videos of
these stories, transformative stories

01:59:10.018 --> 01:59:14.768
are you also saying this happened at this
program with some sort of link at the

01:59:14.768 --> 01:59:19.293
end that say, if you want to support the
work of this program follow this link,

01:59:19.293 --> 01:59:26.548
or will will will potential funders or
viewers know which program that came

01:59:26.548 --> 01:59:28.628
from and then have a way of supporting

01:59:28.628 --> 01:59:29.128
Lynn Thomas: them?

01:59:29.908 --> 01:59:30.228
Yeah.

01:59:30.228 --> 01:59:33.923
The the very end of the video, we
have Credits that acknowledge our

01:59:33.923 --> 01:59:37.363
sponsor, acknowledge the premier
partners, acknowledge all the charity

01:59:37.363 --> 01:59:41.928
partners, and then thank the story,
the program of which the story came

01:59:42.248 --> 01:59:42.748
Rupert Isaacson: fantastic.

01:59:43.048 --> 01:59:43.368
Okay.

01:59:43.368 --> 01:59:44.828
So people would know, okay.

01:59:44.888 --> 01:59:46.588
This story came from this program.

01:59:46.888 --> 01:59:47.528
I love this.

01:59:47.528 --> 01:59:49.068
I'd like to support that program.

01:59:49.723 --> 01:59:53.113
Lynn Thomas: And our goal with these
short animated videos that that

01:59:53.113 --> 01:59:56.493
share case stories is to have a
diversity of different populations,

01:59:57.513 --> 02:00:01.578
ages, And needs, therapeutic goals.

02:00:01.638 --> 02:00:05.078
So we hopefully as the library
grows, there'll be something that

02:00:05.078 --> 02:00:09.923
fits for maybe your population
focus And your objectives and focus

02:00:09.923 --> 02:00:10.423
Rupert Isaacson: areas.

02:00:10.883 --> 02:00:11.383
Fantastic.

02:00:11.763 --> 02:00:12.243
Fantastic.

02:00:12.243 --> 02:00:19.478
I I have never heard of anything
so unselfishly helpful, um,

02:00:19.478 --> 02:00:20.938
it's rather astonishing.

02:00:21.078 --> 02:00:24.903
And and fair fair full
disclosure listeners.

02:00:24.903 --> 02:00:31.298
So, at our horse boy tribe day, we have
a a gathering of of all our as many of

02:00:31.298 --> 02:00:37.553
our members who want to show up as show
up and we had that this year in Colorado

02:00:37.963 --> 02:00:44.198
at place called Horsebuds in Greeley,
Colorado run by the amazing, Deb, uh,

02:00:44.198 --> 02:00:50.583
there who Deb Michael, who hosting this
was they're basically mini conferences.

02:00:51.283 --> 02:00:55.603
And Lynn was kind enough to show up
and kind enough to talk us through

02:00:55.603 --> 02:00:56.998
arenas for change and, sorry.

02:00:56.998 --> 02:00:58.438
I meant what was this for mental health?

02:00:58.438 --> 02:01:01.418
And the next thing, arenas for change,
which we're gonna get to in a minute.

02:01:01.508 --> 02:01:09.783
And I was just blown away because,
I hadn't seen anybody in this field

02:01:10.403 --> 02:01:17.188
come forward with something that said,
let's just Uplift, everybody, every

02:01:17.188 --> 02:01:23.853
organization, altogether from the small
you showed us that video of of what

02:01:23.853 --> 02:01:27.633
was the place in Oakland again that
that is running such a great program?

02:01:28.123 --> 02:01:29.183
We Ride two.

02:01:29.408 --> 02:01:35.728
We write to, yeah, we write to a really,
really good video short video of of a

02:01:35.728 --> 02:01:42.193
program there of, people of color, youth
of color, um, in in Oakland, obviously,

02:01:42.193 --> 02:01:46.608
very needed place, somewhere you wouldn't
necessarily expect a program to see and

02:01:46.608 --> 02:01:53.338
and it was really beautifully done, and
you could see how the attention that

02:01:53.338 --> 02:01:58.172
that program would get through what
you were doing, just them as one small

02:01:58.172 --> 02:02:02.967
little thing could be an absolute game
changer, let alone for all of us who

02:02:02.967 --> 02:02:06.647
are running the larger organizations
who, also need to raise the profile

02:02:06.647 --> 02:02:09.787
that to have all that done at the same
time, I'm not saying, well, I favor

02:02:10.232 --> 02:02:14.652
path over Igala or Igala over horse
boy or horse boy over, lifemanship.

02:02:14.712 --> 02:02:14.952
No.

02:02:14.952 --> 02:02:15.032
No.

02:02:15.032 --> 02:02:15.192
No.

02:02:15.192 --> 02:02:15.272
No.

02:02:15.272 --> 02:02:15.432
No.

02:02:15.432 --> 02:02:16.632
We're all the same.

02:02:16.632 --> 02:02:19.037
We're all doing the same job.

02:02:19.198 --> 02:02:25.277
We're all in this together, and you
were the first person, I think, to

02:02:25.917 --> 02:02:29.962
that I've seen coming along with a
with a with a program that really

02:02:30.242 --> 02:02:34.242
right across that board without any
any factionalism, uplifts us all.

02:02:34.242 --> 02:02:37.682
And so, what you viewers can't see is
I've I've I've got an imaginary hat on

02:02:37.682 --> 02:02:40.617
here, and I'm taking this hat off to Lynn.

02:02:40.837 --> 02:02:42.357
I'm taking my hat off.

02:02:42.357 --> 02:02:45.372
In fact, I'm gonna do it several
times because it's it's an it's

02:02:45.452 --> 02:02:46.812
it's it's a work of great vision.

02:02:46.812 --> 02:02:50.892
And and when you you explain what
you're doing, you think, yeah.

02:02:50.892 --> 02:02:51.872
Well, of course.

02:02:52.587 --> 02:02:53.308
Yeah, that's obvious.

02:02:53.308 --> 02:02:55.168
We should all do that, but but nobody has.

02:02:55.628 --> 02:02:58.587
It's always like when you listen to
a a reading of pop song on the radio.

02:02:58.587 --> 02:03:00.528
Well, I could write that,
but, yeah, but you didn't.

02:03:02.283 --> 02:03:06.623
It's like all good ideas,
it seems like a no brainer.

02:03:07.323 --> 02:03:12.077
And yet in the, what, fifty,
sixty years of our field, it

02:03:12.077 --> 02:03:13.217
actually hasn't been done.

02:03:14.748 --> 02:03:17.728
So I'm immensely impressed
and immensely excited.

02:03:21.313 --> 02:03:21.473
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:03:21.473 --> 02:03:22.513
Well well, thank you.

02:03:22.513 --> 02:03:28.228
And really again, acknowledging my
cofounder, Jackie and Tyler, Uh, who had

02:03:28.228 --> 02:03:33.287
the experience with doing these campaigns
that brought the knowledge and the idea.

02:03:33.427 --> 02:03:36.702
I mean, we knew we wanted to do something,
but it's Like, how to go about doing

02:03:36.702 --> 02:03:37.022
Rupert Isaacson: it?

02:03:37.022 --> 02:03:40.062
Tell us about the amazing Jackie Tyler
because they're not here right now.

02:03:40.062 --> 02:03:41.102
Let's let's think That's

02:03:41.102 --> 02:03:41.902
Lynn Thomas: two different people.

02:03:41.902 --> 02:03:42.142
Yeah.

02:03:42.142 --> 02:03:42.622
Jackie.

02:03:42.622 --> 02:03:43.582
Rupert Isaacson: Jackie and Tyler.

02:03:43.582 --> 02:03:43.902
Okay.

02:03:43.902 --> 02:03:44.062
Yeah.

02:03:44.062 --> 02:03:45.807
So let let's let's hear about

02:03:45.807 --> 02:03:46.307
Lynn Thomas: them.

02:03:46.717 --> 02:03:47.037
Yeah.

02:03:47.037 --> 02:03:50.957
They've done campaigns in other
sectors, um, ending polio.

02:03:50.957 --> 02:03:55.532
They did in Australia that ended up
raising I've millions, it might have

02:03:55.532 --> 02:03:59.532
been in the billions, actually, raising
that amount of money by getting by

02:03:59.532 --> 02:04:03.797
the same concept of convening all
the Organizations in the end polio

02:04:03.857 --> 02:04:06.177
sector, and then, hey, everybody.

02:04:06.177 --> 02:04:09.237
Let's work together because and we
can reach out to these celebrities,

02:04:09.297 --> 02:04:10.757
and we can put on this event.

02:04:11.132 --> 02:04:13.212
You And then they get all
the government leaders.

02:04:13.212 --> 02:04:13.932
Well, hey.

02:04:13.932 --> 02:04:15.212
The government leaders now, wow.

02:04:15.212 --> 02:04:16.252
This is a big audience.

02:04:16.252 --> 02:04:18.762
We might wanna, pump
pump ourselves up a bit.

02:04:18.997 --> 02:04:21.397
And then they would then say, yes.

02:04:21.397 --> 02:04:23.657
We're gonna dedicate government funds.

02:04:23.717 --> 02:04:25.637
Businesses say, oh, I
wanna get in front of this.

02:04:25.637 --> 02:04:30.362
We're gonna ded dedicate business
funds and sponsorships To end polio.

02:04:30.823 --> 02:04:35.563
So they've done that with
that and some other kind of

02:04:36.007 --> 02:04:39.187
Big, huge projects like that.

02:04:39.187 --> 02:04:44.043
And so Jackie has a background with
Horses and with mental health, and this

02:04:44.043 --> 02:04:46.143
has been a vision and a passion for her.

02:04:46.362 --> 02:04:49.803
And so she wanted to bring this
to our sector and connected with

02:04:49.803 --> 02:04:51.327
me, and then I was like, Yeah.

02:04:51.327 --> 02:04:52.847
I was this is what we wanna do.

02:04:52.847 --> 02:04:55.167
So that's that's where it comes from.

02:04:55.167 --> 02:04:57.747
So she's better at talking
about it than I am.

02:04:58.632 --> 02:05:00.672
I'm just here as the yes.

02:05:00.672 --> 02:05:02.772
Let's do it because I
believe in collaboration.

02:05:03.152 --> 02:05:06.897
I believe in when we work
together, we're all better off.

02:05:06.897 --> 02:05:11.217
The And and just to share, I mean, some
of just from our last two campaigns,

02:05:11.217 --> 02:05:17.362
so we're talking about five, six
weeks of time, we had a reach of Over

02:05:17.362 --> 02:05:19.542
thirty five million on social media.

02:05:19.682 --> 02:05:20.162
I believe.

02:05:20.162 --> 02:05:22.662
Our videos have been watched
over a million times.

02:05:22.962 --> 02:05:23.462
Yeah.

02:05:23.562 --> 02:05:27.817
And This kind of stuff is only happening
because we're doing it together.

02:05:27.877 --> 02:05:28.377
Right.

02:05:29.077 --> 02:05:30.277
And it can keep growing.

02:05:30.277 --> 02:05:38.523
Rupert Isaacson: What what Jackie
clearly has has identified is that

02:05:38.663 --> 02:05:42.257
what we're dealing with here is a
public health issue in a public health

02:05:42.257 --> 02:05:46.537
campaign the the fact that it's you
you bring up, the end polio thing.

02:05:46.537 --> 02:05:49.852
People think, well, horses and equinexes
and stuff, it's a niche, and it's, it's

02:05:49.852 --> 02:05:54.427
people who, are looking for therapy and
just, wanna, gaze at their navels and talk

02:05:54.507 --> 02:05:58.268
about how to press they are, and we we
all know that this is not the case at all.

02:05:58.268 --> 02:06:02.288
We all know that people's lives are
being saved daily in these programs.

02:06:04.022 --> 02:06:05.702
It it was interesting to me.

02:06:05.702 --> 02:06:13.177
I was at I I've just come back from
doing a series of trainings in Ireland

02:06:13.177 --> 02:06:19.877
last week, and one of the clear messages
you get whenever you go to any of

02:06:19.877 --> 02:06:23.462
these programs, because they're all
offering in a slightly different way,

02:06:23.462 --> 02:06:26.822
is there a lot there's always one or
two young people who are there who

02:06:26.822 --> 02:06:30.537
will say to you and I don't mean young,
like, twenties or young, like, teens,

02:06:30.537 --> 02:06:32.077
after being, like, young, like, eleven.

02:06:32.377 --> 02:06:34.697
So if it was not for this
program, I would not be here.

02:06:34.697 --> 02:06:35.977
Like, I I would not be here.

02:06:35.977 --> 02:06:37.742
I would have left the
planet at this point.

02:06:38.302 --> 02:06:40.082
And we all know this.

02:06:43.022 --> 02:06:48.348
We the fact that we do have a crisis in
mental health, for sure, in our society

02:06:48.407 --> 02:06:52.677
today in a way that is whether it's
more acute than it was before, whether

02:06:52.677 --> 02:06:57.122
it's more we're because we're more aware
of it its effects on us than we were

02:06:57.122 --> 02:06:59.622
before, nonetheless, now is its time.

02:07:00.162 --> 02:07:04.342
And just as we need to end polio, we
need to ameliorate our mental health.

02:07:05.087 --> 02:07:10.847
If we're going to meet the challenges
of all of the stuff that's up the

02:07:10.847 --> 02:07:14.467
road for us as a society because we
know there's some big stuff coming.

02:07:15.192 --> 02:07:18.553
Doesn't matter which end of the climate
thing you sit on, you know it's there.

02:07:18.553 --> 02:07:19.373
It's a conversation.

02:07:19.833 --> 02:07:20.813
Stuff is happening.

02:07:21.033 --> 02:07:23.848
Doesn't matter which end of the
thing you're on, whether it's

02:07:23.848 --> 02:07:26.088
on Ukraine and is it's there.

02:07:26.088 --> 02:07:26.908
It's happening.

02:07:27.128 --> 02:07:28.008
Stuff's going on.

02:07:28.008 --> 02:07:28.968
Stuff's going down.

02:07:28.968 --> 02:07:30.348
Life is getting more stressful.

02:07:30.888 --> 02:07:32.188
Costs are going up.

02:07:32.563 --> 02:07:36.443
The world is getting more
competitive, blah blah blah, and

02:07:36.443 --> 02:07:39.058
mental health is now a crucial thing.

02:07:39.058 --> 02:07:43.058
So the fact that Jackie identified
that in the same way as, okay, we

02:07:43.217 --> 02:07:47.342
we've almost learned how to deal with
pandemics and epidemics, but this is a

02:07:47.342 --> 02:07:50.943
different type of pandemic, and this is
a much more insidious type of pandemic

02:07:50.943 --> 02:07:54.483
that claims the lives of millions of
people every day around the world.

02:07:54.578 --> 02:07:58.958
People just feel they can't go on anymore
and that's the work we're all doing.

02:07:59.738 --> 02:08:04.203
So it's really interesting to me that she
identified that, sir, got another hat on.

02:08:04.203 --> 02:08:07.083
Jackie, you can't see me, but
I'm taking this hat off to you.

02:08:07.083 --> 02:08:13.418
Thank you for deciding to make it a
public health issue in the same way

02:08:13.418 --> 02:08:15.438
that polio will be, tell us about Tyler.

02:08:15.898 --> 02:08:18.298
Who who's Tyler on this So Tyler is

02:08:18.298 --> 02:08:22.223
Lynn Thomas: the executive producer
of the campaign, and, Again, he's just

02:08:22.223 --> 02:08:27.343
the the one doing all the operational
steps behind the scenes of which there

02:08:27.343 --> 02:08:32.998
are many, and he's absolutely wonderful
to work with, Incredibly good at

02:08:33.138 --> 02:08:35.718
putting together really good campaigns.

02:08:35.938 --> 02:08:38.838
So I'm really appreciative of him
and then the rest of the team.

02:08:39.653 --> 02:08:42.053
Everybody has their different
roles doing all there's a lot of

02:08:42.053 --> 02:08:43.653
pieces to put on these campaigns.

02:08:43.653 --> 02:08:45.613
It's kinda like putting
on a conference Yeah.

02:08:45.813 --> 02:08:49.198
And even and Probably
bigger in some ways too.

02:08:49.338 --> 02:08:49.578
Yeah.

02:08:49.578 --> 02:08:51.578
Because I've experienced
putting on conferences too.

02:08:51.578 --> 02:08:54.628
So, so there's a lot of pieces
behind the scenes, and what's neat

02:08:54.628 --> 02:08:56.168
is, yeah, we're doing the legwork.

02:08:57.093 --> 02:08:59.013
And I think that's where yeah.

02:08:59.013 --> 02:09:03.573
With horses for mental health, really,
I think that was the vision as I it was

02:09:03.573 --> 02:09:08.408
time to step away from a The training,
the and the model that I was doing with

02:09:08.408 --> 02:09:13.403
the gala and really had this vision to
look more macro, you could say Absolutely.

02:09:13.598 --> 02:09:17.002
And do something that brings us all
together, and it's been so fun because

02:09:17.002 --> 02:09:20.042
it has been bringing us all together,
and I can't wait to see where it keeps

02:09:20.042 --> 02:09:20.542
Rupert Isaacson: going.

02:09:20.602 --> 02:09:24.007
I've got one more question before we
go on to arenas the change so you're

02:09:24.007 --> 02:09:26.107
talking about the month in May.

02:09:27.287 --> 02:09:33.132
This is obviously a massively and mostly,
um, social media event, is there actually

02:09:33.132 --> 02:09:37.612
also a single event event, like physical
event that people can show up to, or

02:09:37.612 --> 02:09:39.472
is the whole thing online and virtual?

02:09:39.587 --> 02:09:42.628
But, basically, how do people
participate even if they're not

02:09:42.628 --> 02:09:46.358
submitting information about their
programs hoping to be involved?

02:09:47.992 --> 02:09:48.073
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:09:48.073 --> 02:09:49.773
So right now, it's all online.

02:09:50.073 --> 02:09:54.873
However, our vision is to do some more
event based experiences, and we encourage

02:09:54.873 --> 02:09:59.188
the charity partners as maybe part of
their, Way of getting awareness with

02:09:59.188 --> 02:10:02.627
their fundraising teams that are out there
saying, we believe in this program and

02:10:02.627 --> 02:10:05.138
this amazing cause to do little events.

02:10:05.138 --> 02:10:09.423
Do a dinner or do a Ride the horse,
or walk with the horse or anything

02:10:09.423 --> 02:10:13.603
like that, so we provide some ideas
for the charity partners to utilize.

02:10:14.028 --> 02:10:18.188
And, yeah, our our vision and what we're
already starting to strategize and plan

02:10:18.188 --> 02:10:22.983
is that horses for mental health is gonna
be conducting efforts year round, Not

02:10:22.983 --> 02:10:26.603
just the one big campaign seen throughout
this campaign in the month of May.

02:10:26.663 --> 02:10:30.343
We wanna keep that momentum going
year round with different types

02:10:30.343 --> 02:10:32.298
of events and And experiences.

02:10:32.838 --> 02:10:33.338
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

02:10:33.558 --> 02:10:40.058
So the the idea for physical events is is
is in at least in conversation and Yes.

02:10:41.523 --> 02:10:45.523
Apprised of things we can
actually physically show up at or

02:10:45.523 --> 02:10:47.543
organize ourselves as part of it.

02:10:48.378 --> 02:10:48.778
Lynn Thomas: Right.

02:10:48.778 --> 02:10:49.018
Yeah.

02:10:49.018 --> 02:10:53.848
I mean, you you know, like, you have the,
bike for multiple sclerosis or walk for

02:10:53.848 --> 02:10:59.828
cancer, Big events like that, um, like as
mentioned with Jackie and her background

02:10:59.828 --> 02:11:03.653
with, like, the end polio, or she she was
also part of starting the global citizen

02:11:03.653 --> 02:11:05.753
project, which is to end world poverty.

02:11:07.443 --> 02:11:09.303
tHose are big concert events.

02:11:09.958 --> 02:11:12.918
And so people take
actions on social media.

02:11:12.918 --> 02:11:16.038
And by taking actions on social media
spreading awareness, they get a free

02:11:16.038 --> 02:11:19.733
ticket to go to Concert that has all
these big name, singers, and then

02:11:19.733 --> 02:11:23.733
that's where the big companies and the
government officials get on the stage,

02:11:23.733 --> 02:11:25.653
and it's one of those kind of events too.

02:11:25.653 --> 02:11:29.208
So That might be in our future,
something like that too, and we'll

02:11:29.208 --> 02:11:31.307
just see how it continues to unfold.

02:11:31.847 --> 02:11:32.347
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

02:11:32.488 --> 02:11:36.843
I can't wait I can't wait to stay
abreast of it, and we'll do our our

02:11:36.843 --> 02:11:41.503
best on this podcast to dig it up and
spread it out and let people know.

02:11:42.363 --> 02:11:42.683
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:11:42.683 --> 02:11:43.408
Thank you.

02:11:43.567 --> 02:11:45.008
Thank you for spreading the word.

02:11:45.087 --> 02:11:45.728
You for

02:11:45.728 --> 02:11:47.968
Rupert Isaacson: for for for
doing what none of us have done.

02:11:47.968 --> 02:11:48.367
Yes.

02:11:48.367 --> 02:11:49.107
It's wonderful.

02:11:50.317 --> 02:11:50.797
Okay.

02:11:50.797 --> 02:11:52.898
So horses for mental health, amazing.

02:11:53.863 --> 02:11:58.663
So arenas for change, not content
with just doing one new thing

02:11:58.663 --> 02:12:00.603
on a global potential scale.

02:12:01.038 --> 02:12:05.198
You're now doing two, what is arenas
for change, and how does it differ

02:12:05.198 --> 02:12:06.738
from horses for mental health?

02:12:07.358 --> 02:12:07.518
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:12:07.518 --> 02:12:11.198
It's funny you say that because,
After a gala, twenty one years

02:12:11.198 --> 02:12:13.358
building a business, and I
know you know what it takes.

02:12:13.358 --> 02:12:16.558
I know all these programs
know what it takes to to be an

02:12:16.558 --> 02:12:17.998
entrepreneur and build a business.

02:12:17.998 --> 02:12:21.063
And there was a part of me I was
like, oh, I'm really, really tired.

02:12:21.063 --> 02:12:26.443
I am so I'm just gonna go work for some
corporation and Make money for change.

02:12:26.743 --> 02:12:28.423
Like, that's the space I was in.

02:12:28.423 --> 02:12:31.063
And then I had this wonderful team
like, Lynn, what are we doing next?

02:12:31.063 --> 02:12:32.263
And it's like, oh, okay.

02:12:32.263 --> 02:12:33.483
We're doing something next.

02:12:33.728 --> 02:12:37.248
But it's you know, arenas for change
was basically born out of, like

02:12:37.328 --> 02:12:39.008
well, now what are we gonna do, Lynn?

02:12:39.008 --> 02:12:43.313
And and it really came about because
there's A lot of us had just we

02:12:43.313 --> 02:12:46.513
just love to learn, and we love
to learn in a community because

02:12:46.513 --> 02:12:47.953
then we're pushing ourselves.

02:12:47.953 --> 02:12:51.448
We're building on ideas, and we're
getting better when doing it together

02:12:51.448 --> 02:12:52.828
and learning with one another.

02:12:53.208 --> 02:12:57.148
And so are for change was born with
this, like, well, we wanna keep learning.

02:12:57.288 --> 02:12:58.863
And what do we wanna keep learning?

02:12:58.863 --> 02:13:02.063
Where would we wanna focus,
and how do we wanna do it?

02:13:02.063 --> 02:13:08.098
And so we we started with First, again,
our foundation is involving horses

02:13:08.158 --> 02:13:12.238
for mental health and any kind of
well-being education, coaching, personal

02:13:12.238 --> 02:13:14.017
development, organizational development.

02:13:15.503 --> 02:13:17.263
However, there's a lot of
people that were like, well,

02:13:17.263 --> 02:13:19.443
we also like other animals too.

02:13:19.503 --> 02:13:20.003
Yeah.

02:13:20.063 --> 02:13:21.583
We like we like to do dogs.

02:13:21.583 --> 02:13:23.363
We work with chickens, goats, llamas.

02:13:24.178 --> 02:13:25.158
We like nature.

02:13:25.698 --> 02:13:29.378
And a lot of us, thanks to the
pandemic too, did really get into doing

02:13:29.378 --> 02:13:32.223
more telehealth online Experiences.

02:13:32.523 --> 02:13:38.683
And so we created the word arenas,
and it's plural, to acknowledge that

02:13:38.683 --> 02:13:43.408
while we're still very much Engage with
the horses because that's our base.

02:13:44.298 --> 02:13:48.317
wE work in a lot of different arenas, and
we still wanna learn with one another.

02:13:48.753 --> 02:13:50.913
So and then for change,
because we're about change.

02:13:50.913 --> 02:13:56.362
Well, then one of our team members
said, well, arenas for change, a r

02:13:56.597 --> 02:14:02.867
Farina, c h for change is Arch, and so
that could be our our simplified name.

02:14:02.867 --> 02:14:05.847
So Arch came about because
arches are symbolic.

02:14:06.372 --> 02:14:10.632
They're symbolic of new beginnings,
new perspectives, and transformation,

02:14:11.012 --> 02:14:14.237
which, of course, fit very well
with the place In our journey that

02:14:14.237 --> 02:14:17.537
we were at, and it fits very well
with the clients that we work with.

02:14:18.077 --> 02:14:20.957
So, we started there, and the
next thing we went with was,

02:14:20.957 --> 02:14:22.952
well, Where do we wanna focus?

02:14:22.952 --> 02:14:28.392
And and we kinda talked about we're
doing good work, and so many great

02:14:28.392 --> 02:14:31.587
organizations Training, so many
wonderful programs, doing amazing things.

02:14:31.587 --> 02:14:34.647
We're all doing really
good work out there.

02:14:34.867 --> 02:14:37.127
And what can we do to keep improving?

02:14:37.322 --> 02:14:39.642
What can we do to keep building
on the great work that's

02:14:39.642 --> 02:14:40.762
already being done out there?

02:14:40.762 --> 02:14:42.222
So that was the first thing.

02:14:42.682 --> 02:14:47.527
And the second thing was we really Wanted
to focus on our facilitation skills

02:14:47.527 --> 02:14:52.427
and how we can continue to increase
creating an emotionally safe environment.

02:14:52.567 --> 02:14:57.302
Because when clients feel safe, When
horses feel safe, when everybody feels

02:14:57.462 --> 02:15:01.962
when when our team members feel safe,
when everybody feels safe, learning can

02:15:02.022 --> 02:15:05.227
increase, And our process can go deeper.

02:15:06.007 --> 02:15:11.212
So and we, really wanted to look at
what can we do as facilitators Where

02:15:11.212 --> 02:15:12.892
clients really feel seen and heard.

02:15:12.892 --> 02:15:14.672
I mean, horses do that so well.

02:15:15.052 --> 02:15:17.452
And I think sometimes as
facilitators, we're the ones that

02:15:17.452 --> 02:15:18.812
are getting in the way of that.

02:15:18.812 --> 02:15:21.977
So That was another thing
we wanted to focus at.

02:15:22.197 --> 02:15:26.277
And then the other thing we wanted to do
was well, I didn't wanna do a model again.

02:15:26.277 --> 02:15:30.512
I I I believe models have a place,
so you needed very Structured more

02:15:30.512 --> 02:15:35.632
structured programs that can be
replicated, um, we just kinda wanted

02:15:35.632 --> 02:15:40.067
to do like well, we like to embrace all
the different Interventions and ideas,

02:15:40.447 --> 02:15:42.067
and yet we still need a foundation.

02:15:42.207 --> 02:15:47.062
And so we created what we call the scene
keystones, Um, which, of course, goes

02:15:47.062 --> 02:15:48.502
with clients feeling seen and heard.

02:15:48.502 --> 02:15:51.782
But the seeing keystones are just a
framework for us as facilitators to

02:15:51.782 --> 02:15:57.407
hold In our minds, ask ourselves these
questions which are around sense of self.

02:15:57.817 --> 02:16:00.242
What am I, Yeah.

02:16:00.242 --> 02:16:01.522
Am I knowing myself?

02:16:01.522 --> 02:16:02.802
Am I understanding myself?

02:16:02.802 --> 02:16:04.562
How can I better understand myself?

02:16:04.562 --> 02:16:07.447
What is my sense of self In this moment.

02:16:07.937 --> 02:16:10.497
What is my opposite in this moment?

02:16:10.497 --> 02:16:14.677
Because when we look at our opposites,
then we learn so much about ourselves.

02:16:15.062 --> 02:16:16.662
So, I'll go through the
questions in a minute.

02:16:16.662 --> 02:16:19.942
But, basically, it's a set of questions
we ask ourselves under each of these

02:16:19.942 --> 02:16:24.507
acronym of scenes, sense of self,
Empowering mindset, externalizing story,

02:16:24.507 --> 02:16:27.007
and natural flow is what that stands for.

02:16:27.627 --> 02:16:32.363
And so when it's just a set of questions
that we ask ourselves, Then it can

02:16:32.363 --> 02:16:35.262
be applied in a lot of different
ways in a lot of different settings.

02:16:35.883 --> 02:16:38.762
And I think for those of us who've been
doing this work for a while, I think

02:16:38.762 --> 02:16:42.117
it helps us look at the nuances of
what we're doing and how we're doing

02:16:42.117 --> 02:16:45.238
it and how we're facilitating and
engaging with the client and with the

02:16:45.238 --> 02:16:47.338
experience and with the environment.

02:16:48.763 --> 02:16:52.363
And for new people, what we're finding I
I I first wondered if this was gonna be

02:16:52.363 --> 02:16:55.883
for maybe more experienced people, but,
actually, we've had a lot of new people

02:16:55.883 --> 02:16:59.508
come through our trainings just Looking
at this framework and asking ourselves

02:16:59.508 --> 02:17:03.268
these questions around sense of self
and power mindset, externalizing story,

02:17:03.268 --> 02:17:09.162
natural flow, And really setting a great
foundation for their learning as well.

02:17:09.162 --> 02:17:10.623
So Okay.

02:17:11.618 --> 02:17:11.778
Yeah.

02:17:11.778 --> 02:17:12.578
That's what we're doing.

02:17:12.578 --> 02:17:17.778
And I'll I'll mention externalizing story,
of course, really got us down the path of

02:17:17.778 --> 02:17:22.033
story and store the story framework and
mindset and how that applies in our work.

02:17:22.033 --> 02:17:26.512
So I'll stop there because that was a
mouthful, but that's what we started.

02:17:26.593 --> 02:17:26.992
Questions.

02:17:26.992 --> 02:17:27.492
Yes.

02:17:27.553 --> 02:17:27.873
Yeah.

02:17:27.873 --> 02:17:28.273
I know.

02:17:28.273 --> 02:17:30.088
And I just realized
there was more I missed.

02:17:30.088 --> 02:17:32.588
But, anyway, I'm gonna pause
because I know that was a mouthful.

02:17:32.728 --> 02:17:34.808
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe maybe we we'll
get to those things that you missed.

02:17:34.808 --> 02:17:42.063
So so so arenas for change is a training
program that say I could do where I could

02:17:42.063 --> 02:17:53.377
learn to emphasize making my learning
slash professional environment slash

02:17:53.377 --> 02:18:06.268
service provision environment safer, um,
by allowing the service users, let's say,

02:18:06.728 --> 02:18:20.627
to be more seen and heard by training me
through certain questions, um, to keep

02:18:20.627 --> 02:18:29.023
that ethic front and center in my work and
the environment that I provide and whether

02:18:29.023 --> 02:18:31.823
it's for me, whether it's for the client,
whether it's for the horses, what it's

02:18:31.823 --> 02:18:35.262
all of us, is that have I got it right?

02:18:35.262 --> 02:18:35.422
Is

02:18:35.422 --> 02:18:36.783
Lynn Thomas: that what You do.

02:18:36.783 --> 02:18:39.038
That's Thank you for helping concise it.

02:18:39.038 --> 02:18:39.518
You're right.

02:18:39.518 --> 02:18:42.578
It's a learning environment,
so we we provide training.

02:18:43.308 --> 02:18:46.138
And mainly, like I said, it started
because we just all A group of

02:18:46.138 --> 02:18:48.538
us all wanted to keep learning,
and they were like, well, anybody

02:18:48.538 --> 02:18:50.238
else can join us who wants to.

02:18:50.778 --> 02:18:53.758
And then it's turned into
it keeps growing as well.

02:18:53.898 --> 02:18:59.072
Oh, so, and then and then we added
certification be due to popular

02:18:59.212 --> 02:19:01.472
requests or or, requests for that.

02:19:02.012 --> 02:19:04.007
And even how we're doing that
is a little bit different.

02:19:04.007 --> 02:19:06.247
But, ultimately, yes, you
can come and learn this.

02:19:06.247 --> 02:19:11.387
And and let me just kinda share too
what I mentioned about what we started.

02:19:12.272 --> 02:19:14.592
We actually what then when
we first were starting, we're

02:19:14.592 --> 02:19:15.632
like, well, what's our mission?

02:19:15.632 --> 02:19:16.452
What's our vision?

02:19:17.072 --> 02:19:19.087
And we actually were
going around in circles.

02:19:19.247 --> 02:19:22.447
We were, like, debating what's a
mission and what's a vision, and we

02:19:22.447 --> 02:19:23.847
had different opinions and Mission.

02:19:24.047 --> 02:19:24.687
That whole thing.

02:19:24.687 --> 02:19:25.267
A mission.

02:19:25.647 --> 02:19:26.207
I know.

02:19:26.207 --> 02:19:29.012
So our but then we started
talking about our values.

02:19:29.492 --> 02:19:33.272
And it was when we started talking
about our values that we really lit up.

02:19:33.332 --> 02:19:35.812
And so we have a set of values.

02:19:35.812 --> 02:19:38.687
They're actually long paragraphs because
at first, we're, like, Coming up with

02:19:38.687 --> 02:19:41.767
the one word things, and then we're like,
well, it doesn't have to be one word.

02:19:41.767 --> 02:19:44.087
So, so we came up with value.

02:19:44.087 --> 02:19:47.442
So that's our foundation is we
wanna connect with others Who

02:19:47.442 --> 02:19:51.622
wanna keep learning and growing,
improving our skills as facilitators,

02:19:52.802 --> 02:19:55.702
and we share these values.

02:19:55.937 --> 02:19:56.177
Okay.

02:19:56.177 --> 02:19:57.857
So that that's the the first thing.

02:19:57.857 --> 02:20:00.497
And then the second thing is,
well, what do we wanna learn?

02:20:00.497 --> 02:20:02.417
Because we do we can't be too broad.

02:20:02.417 --> 02:20:04.197
We can't be all things to all people.

02:20:04.762 --> 02:20:08.842
And so this idea of the scene
keystones, okay, here's here's where

02:20:08.842 --> 02:20:12.537
we're gonna focus, and then that led
into a little bit more about Story.

02:20:12.537 --> 02:20:16.297
So we talk about for people who
are interested and wanna learn more

02:20:16.297 --> 02:20:20.717
about how to apply a story mindset,
which we can talk more about that,

02:20:21.382 --> 02:20:26.602
In environments with animals, horses,
nature, or even online or in your office,

02:20:27.252 --> 02:20:29.172
that's really what a lot of our focus

02:20:29.172 --> 02:20:29.672
Rupert Isaacson: is.

02:20:30.677 --> 02:20:30.997
Okay.

02:20:30.997 --> 02:20:35.257
Talk to me about these stories, how we how
we involving story, how we're using story.

02:20:37.317 --> 02:20:37.817
So,

02:20:38.037 --> 02:20:38.917
Lynn Thomas: There's a couple ways.

02:20:38.917 --> 02:20:41.557
Because I think the first thing
people out with with, like, narrative

02:20:41.557 --> 02:20:44.837
therapy and stuff you think about,
well, we all are grow up, and

02:20:44.837 --> 02:20:46.382
we Tell ourselves these stories.

02:20:46.382 --> 02:20:48.862
We have these narratives in
our mind that influence how we

02:20:48.862 --> 02:20:52.322
engage with our relationships
and with the world around us.

02:20:52.942 --> 02:20:58.557
So, I'm not good enough Or nice people
with people who are manipulating me.

02:20:58.677 --> 02:20:59.497
Rupert Isaacson: Or whatever.

02:20:59.557 --> 02:20:59.877
Yeah.

02:20:59.877 --> 02:21:00.377
Yeah.

02:21:00.867 --> 02:21:02.082
Lynn Thomas: Those those
kind of narratives.

02:21:02.482 --> 02:21:06.002
So there's that aspect of the stories
that we tell ourselves and really

02:21:06.002 --> 02:21:07.622
investigating, exploring those.

02:21:08.032 --> 02:21:12.407
What we're really looking at this,
though, is looking at life As a story.

02:21:13.027 --> 02:21:15.587
And you probably have a lot
to have input on this because

02:21:15.587 --> 02:21:17.427
you're a storyteller, Rupert.

02:21:17.427 --> 02:21:20.862
So When we look at life as a
story, we get new perspectives.

02:21:22.042 --> 02:21:26.922
So we look at one, I'm the main
character of my life right now.

02:21:26.922 --> 02:21:31.107
I'm I'm in the story of this
podcast with Rupert, and, we're

02:21:31.107 --> 02:21:32.547
having an experience right now.

02:21:32.547 --> 02:21:33.427
We're feeling things.

02:21:33.427 --> 02:21:34.467
We're experiencing things.

02:21:34.467 --> 02:21:35.027
I'm in it.

02:21:35.027 --> 02:21:37.462
I'm a character In this story right now.

02:21:37.682 --> 02:21:38.082
Right?

02:21:38.082 --> 02:21:39.042
And as are you.

02:21:39.042 --> 02:21:41.762
We're characters in the story,
and I'm feeling experience in it.

02:21:41.762 --> 02:21:45.187
However, if in my mind or or even
physically, if I were to Take a

02:21:45.187 --> 02:21:50.727
step back and say, I'm gonna look at
this podcast with Rupert as a story.

02:21:51.892 --> 02:21:53.172
Now I'm gonna kinda watch.

02:21:53.172 --> 02:21:56.292
I'm gonna take and look as if
I'm a viewer watching a movie

02:21:56.292 --> 02:21:58.072
or a reader reading a book.

02:21:58.612 --> 02:22:02.187
Now I'm still going to be Feeling and
experiencing things because we do.

02:22:02.187 --> 02:22:04.667
When we're watching a movie, we
still have some emotional connection.

02:22:04.667 --> 02:22:07.722
We're putting ourselves in the shoes
of the characters a lot of times,

02:22:07.882 --> 02:22:11.262
But we are getting a little different
perspective when we step back.

02:22:11.322 --> 02:22:11.642
Right?

02:22:11.642 --> 02:22:13.102
We can see new things.

02:22:13.322 --> 02:22:15.422
Do not walk into that scary room.

02:22:15.897 --> 02:22:17.817
But when we're a character,
we don't see that.

02:22:17.817 --> 02:22:18.317
Right?

02:22:18.617 --> 02:22:21.577
So as a viewer, we're seeing new
perspectives, but then we also

02:22:21.577 --> 02:22:25.677
have another perspective stepping
further back as an author.

02:22:26.202 --> 02:22:31.102
And when you're looking at your life as
a story from an author's perspective,

02:22:31.882 --> 02:22:35.102
that's another whole different
type of perspective that you get.

02:22:35.597 --> 02:22:40.257
And so as facilitators, we can engage
with our clients and invite or flow

02:22:40.317 --> 02:22:44.657
through these different perspectives as a
character, as a viewer, and as an author.

02:22:45.322 --> 02:22:46.122
Eric took you

02:22:46.122 --> 02:22:47.342
Rupert Isaacson: out of that okay.

02:22:47.482 --> 02:22:48.222
That's interesting.

02:22:48.362 --> 02:22:48.602
Sorry.

02:22:48.602 --> 02:22:50.382
I just wanted to clarify that.

02:22:50.682 --> 02:22:51.082
Okay.

02:22:51.082 --> 02:22:51.902
So go on.

02:22:52.607 --> 02:22:53.107
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:22:53.327 --> 02:22:57.597
So, and so when we're working with
our clients as a character, say

02:22:57.597 --> 02:23:02.002
they're they're in the space with the
horses, They're having an experience.

02:23:02.142 --> 02:23:04.702
Our role as a facilitator
then is to hold that space for

02:23:04.702 --> 02:23:05.842
them to have that experience.

02:23:06.222 --> 02:23:08.562
We might become fellow
characters in their story.

02:23:09.007 --> 02:23:10.387
That's possible too.

02:23:10.607 --> 02:23:13.887
And so I'm gonna engage with them
a way that might be more like I'm

02:23:13.887 --> 02:23:16.402
a character in their story, and
how would I be as that character?

02:23:16.562 --> 02:23:18.722
Meaning, like, maybe
I'm the listening ears.

02:23:18.722 --> 02:23:20.262
They just need someone to listen.

02:23:21.712 --> 02:23:26.467
I've you know, maybe I I remember
so a client one time saying, Wow.

02:23:26.467 --> 02:23:28.307
I was afraid to say this.

02:23:28.307 --> 02:23:33.242
I didn't wanna say this because I'm having
grief, but I know that you have a loss

02:23:33.482 --> 02:23:36.922
too, and I was, worried about saying
too much because you have this loss.

02:23:36.922 --> 02:23:37.422
Okay.

02:23:38.362 --> 02:23:39.562
I did have a loss.

02:23:39.562 --> 02:23:40.062
Alright.

02:23:40.257 --> 02:23:44.757
And I was having feelings
genuinely hearing her loss story.

02:23:45.617 --> 02:23:49.297
And now I can step back a little bit
in my own mind as a facilitator and

02:23:49.297 --> 02:23:54.263
say, I'm the I'm the character in her
story that she's worried about hurting,

02:23:55.203 --> 02:23:58.437
and, therefore, she's not taking care
of herself because she's worried or

02:23:58.437 --> 02:24:01.177
she's not sharing or whatever because
she's worried about the other person.

02:24:01.318 --> 02:24:04.057
I'm that character in this story,
so I'm gonna be that character.

02:24:05.062 --> 02:24:06.622
So that's how we're gonna engage.

02:24:06.622 --> 02:24:09.502
A lot of it's more holding
space, allowing that process

02:24:09.502 --> 02:24:10.962
for them to feel and experience.

02:24:11.578 --> 02:24:14.858
As a viewer, if the client's in
viewer role, we're stepping back.

02:24:14.858 --> 02:24:17.737
Maybe we're watching the space
with the horses, and maybe

02:24:17.737 --> 02:24:19.598
they're narrating some things.

02:24:19.973 --> 02:24:21.733
And I'm gonna be more like, wow.

02:24:21.733 --> 02:24:23.672
I'm gonna join in them with the curiosity.

02:24:23.733 --> 02:24:25.812
Like, I'm sitting next to
someone watching a movie.

02:24:25.812 --> 02:24:26.292
Like, wow.

02:24:26.292 --> 02:24:28.437
That was interesting, or I
wonder what that's about, or

02:24:28.597 --> 02:24:29.897
wonder what's gonna happen next.

02:24:30.677 --> 02:24:33.177
Now we don't wanna overdo it
because then it becomes annoying.

02:24:34.117 --> 02:24:37.077
So as a facilitator, again,
I'm doing a lot of holding

02:24:37.077 --> 02:24:39.162
space, Lot of being present.

02:24:39.222 --> 02:24:41.082
A lot of joining with our clients.

02:24:41.222 --> 02:24:41.462
Right.

02:24:41.462 --> 02:24:41.542
You

02:24:41.542 --> 02:24:43.862
Rupert Isaacson: don't want the DJ
to interrupt the song too often.

02:24:43.862 --> 02:24:44.182
Right?

02:24:44.182 --> 02:24:44.582
Yeah.

02:24:44.582 --> 02:24:45.062
Right.

02:24:45.062 --> 02:24:45.562
Lynn Thomas: Exactly.

02:24:45.862 --> 02:24:46.362
Right.

02:24:47.007 --> 02:24:49.647
So and then when they're in
the author role, when we invite

02:24:49.647 --> 02:24:50.767
that, we'll we'll step out.

02:24:50.767 --> 02:24:52.707
We'll literally change
our physical location.

02:24:53.247 --> 02:24:53.567
Okay.

02:24:53.567 --> 02:24:55.567
And it's almost like you're
sitting a bunch like, we're

02:24:55.567 --> 02:24:57.252
the editor is a facilitator.

02:24:57.632 --> 02:25:00.352
They're the author, so we're
really paying attention that we're

02:25:00.352 --> 02:25:02.887
supporting them as the author,
that we don't become the author.

02:25:03.237 --> 02:25:07.157
But as a story editor, I'm gonna educate
about so I'm gonna look at, well, what

02:25:07.157 --> 02:25:09.017
are the main characters of this story?

02:25:09.612 --> 02:25:11.953
What are some of the
characteristics of those characters?

02:25:12.012 --> 02:25:13.612
We're gonna deepen and develop the story.

02:25:13.612 --> 02:25:14.673
We'll look at locations.

02:25:15.453 --> 02:25:16.752
Settings matter.

02:25:17.177 --> 02:25:18.058
The scenes matter.

02:25:18.058 --> 02:25:19.517
Look at the locations, characteristics.

02:25:19.657 --> 02:25:22.078
We'll look at what is
this really a story about?

02:25:22.217 --> 02:25:23.598
What's looking to transform?

02:25:25.412 --> 02:25:28.793
So we have a whole process that we've
learned and we started exploring

02:25:28.852 --> 02:25:31.973
and experimenting with, and we
teach that because we've actually

02:25:31.973 --> 02:25:33.433
found it to be really powerful.

02:25:33.948 --> 02:25:38.027
And it helps clients get these
new perspectives, but also it

02:25:38.027 --> 02:25:41.247
helps organize the experience in
a way that's really meaningful.

02:25:41.338 --> 02:25:46.683
Even Something simple like if you were
to put a title to the experience, if

02:25:46.683 --> 02:25:49.963
you were to look at this experience with
the horse as a story, and you were to

02:25:49.963 --> 02:25:51.983
put a title at what might you title it?

02:25:52.588 --> 02:25:53.088
Yeah.

02:25:53.148 --> 02:25:56.348
And that actually can be really
meaningful, and it anchors the

02:25:56.348 --> 02:25:58.128
experience in a concise way.

02:25:58.507 --> 02:26:01.773
So, Again, there's so much
about it because I get really

02:26:01.773 --> 02:26:02.893
excited about this story.

02:26:02.893 --> 02:26:06.833
There's a lot of depth to how story
and a story mindset can be utilized.

02:26:08.498 --> 02:26:11.538
But the biggest thing in what we say
is when our stories change, we change.

02:26:11.538 --> 02:26:13.638
And it's not just about
changing the narratives.

02:26:14.498 --> 02:26:17.718
The experience we're having
with the horses is a story.

02:26:18.803 --> 02:26:22.243
And the stories, we like to say,
are some of the most amazing

02:26:22.243 --> 02:26:26.103
story editors we have seen because
they shift and they do things.

02:26:26.163 --> 02:26:28.538
And next thing you know,
our story changes, and

02:26:28.538 --> 02:26:30.078
something inside of us shifts.

02:26:31.257 --> 02:26:32.078
Rupert Isaacson: I love it.

02:26:32.298 --> 02:26:34.558
When's the next training that I can join?

02:26:36.313 --> 02:26:39.193
Lynn Thomas: Well, that was the other
thing we wanted to do with Arch is I I

02:26:39.193 --> 02:26:45.248
really wanted it to be accessible Because
so much that's out there, it it's, again,

02:26:45.248 --> 02:26:47.908
wonderful trainings, and it costs a lot.

02:26:48.528 --> 02:26:52.293
And so we really wanted
Accessibility, which we can do

02:26:52.293 --> 02:26:53.733
nowadays with a lot of the online.

02:26:53.733 --> 02:26:56.533
So we have some really
wonderful online courses.

02:26:56.533 --> 02:27:00.678
People can just get monthly subscription,
stay as long as it works for you, learn

02:27:00.838 --> 02:27:03.878
what you wanna learn, and then, of
course, we have people who stay longer

02:27:03.878 --> 02:27:07.098
because they like to be part of the
community and the continued learning.

02:27:07.508 --> 02:27:10.653
But, yeah, feel free to jump on arenas
for change dot com, you can get a

02:27:10.653 --> 02:27:14.813
monthly subscription one, access the
online courses, including there's

02:27:14.813 --> 02:27:18.513
videos of actual sessions in there that
you can watch, and then we debrief.

02:27:18.898 --> 02:27:22.018
You can watch us debrief those
actual sessions and learn what

02:27:22.018 --> 02:27:25.238
our thought process was and what
we learned going through it.

02:27:25.538 --> 02:27:29.463
So there's that in there and a whole
course talking about the scene Keystone's

02:27:29.523 --> 02:27:34.663
and also about there's whole section
about the horse horse the horse's role,

02:27:35.043 --> 02:27:39.058
horse specialists, and their role and
things they can consider, , and think

02:27:39.058 --> 02:27:40.758
about questions they can ask themselves.

02:27:41.248 --> 02:27:46.948
We also have an online live interactive
workshop called seen through story.

02:27:47.133 --> 02:27:47.953
It's two days.

02:27:48.813 --> 02:27:49.713
It's intense.

02:27:50.093 --> 02:27:52.093
It's immersive, and it's fun.

02:27:52.093 --> 02:27:53.293
It's very interactive.

02:27:53.293 --> 02:27:57.718
You're gonna create your own personal
growth story Using the tools we teach you

02:27:58.338 --> 02:28:00.578
and as a way to learn it and apply it.

02:28:00.578 --> 02:28:05.313
So, and you'll leave with seven very
like, Seven really good tools that

02:28:05.313 --> 02:28:06.693
you can just add to your toolbox.

02:28:06.913 --> 02:28:10.913
You can apply them as it fits for you,
but they are definitely tools tools

02:28:10.913 --> 02:28:14.548
that will help when you feel stuck with
your clients, when When the process

02:28:14.548 --> 02:28:19.698
feels a little stuck and you need a
way to expand or move,  these story

02:28:19.698 --> 02:28:21.378
tools are really effective with that.

02:28:21.378 --> 02:28:25.023
So So we have that seen through
story workshop two days that

02:28:25.023 --> 02:28:27.633
you can look into attending to.

02:28:28.283 --> 02:28:31.298
And then we do have some in person
Well, I'm just sharing that right

02:28:31.298 --> 02:28:34.438
now because that's where it makes
it more accessible that anyone can

02:28:34.578 --> 02:28:37.853
can join in, learn Learn with us.

02:28:37.993 --> 02:28:39.353
We learn from each other.

02:28:39.353 --> 02:28:40.553
We talk about we're all teachers.

02:28:40.553 --> 02:28:41.453
We're all learners.

02:28:41.513 --> 02:28:45.613
We have a whole process in our platform
too that we all learn from each other.

02:28:45.828 --> 02:28:47.298
And, yeah,

02:28:47.298 --> 02:28:49.178
Rupert Isaacson: that's the If
we do wanna come and attend one

02:28:49.178 --> 02:28:55.133
of the physical courses, I'm,
as I said, a mastodon Hunter.

02:28:55.133 --> 02:28:56.833
So, my name, by the way, is Ugh.

02:28:57.213 --> 02:29:02.248
And and, I come from the Ugh
tribe,  Where We Speak Book, so,

02:29:02.248 --> 02:29:04.988
I I do very well in live events.

02:29:05.288 --> 02:29:07.368
Where where are they being held?

02:29:07.368 --> 02:29:12.763
And,  I presume I obviously, I could sign
on to them by going on to the the website.

02:29:13.573 --> 02:29:17.158
But yeah, do you have a particular
venue, are there many venues?

02:29:17.618 --> 02:29:20.038
How does it work if if
you wanna do it live?

02:29:20.818 --> 02:29:21.318
Well,

02:29:21.378 --> 02:29:23.458
Lynn Thomas: so we started
Arch in twenty twenty one.

02:29:23.458 --> 02:29:26.483
So I'm saying that because
we shifting what we're doing.

02:29:26.483 --> 02:29:28.803
We keep well, I always I
always shifted with the gal.

02:29:28.803 --> 02:29:29.283
It was all over

02:29:29.283 --> 02:29:29.563
Rupert Isaacson: the place.

02:29:29.604 --> 02:29:30.243
Anything about that.

02:29:30.243 --> 02:29:30.743
Yeah.

02:29:30.963 --> 02:29:31.203
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:29:31.203 --> 02:29:31.443
Right?

02:29:31.443 --> 02:29:32.243
It's always changing.

02:29:32.243 --> 02:29:33.223
It's always evolving.

02:29:33.478 --> 02:29:36.038
So right now, what we're doing,
one, we have what we call the

02:29:36.038 --> 02:29:39.738
arch gatherings, which reminded
me of your tribe experience.

02:29:40.118 --> 02:29:45.013
Very, similar, we we kinda we say in
our gatherings, it is experiential.

02:29:45.313 --> 02:29:49.628
It's in an environment with horses
and nature and Anything else?

02:29:49.768 --> 02:29:51.768
And it's like an experiential conference.

02:29:51.768 --> 02:29:53.309
So we say there's no PowerPoints.

02:29:54.089 --> 02:29:54.329
Mhmm.

02:29:54.329 --> 02:29:58.633
It's it's when we're together, Someone
who's gonna share their experience or

02:29:58.633 --> 02:30:03.433
their specialization or they wanna try
something new, and they talk about but

02:30:03.433 --> 02:30:06.493
then they create an experience that
we're gonna actually hands on practice.

02:30:06.858 --> 02:30:07.358
Okay.

02:30:07.738 --> 02:30:11.738
And so we have a lot of different,
members and nonmembers alike attend

02:30:11.738 --> 02:30:17.453
and and present and share, and we
We've done stuff with mounted work.

02:30:17.453 --> 02:30:20.113
We've done stuff on the ground
with different populations.

02:30:20.333 --> 02:30:20.813
We've done

02:30:20.973 --> 02:30:22.413
Rupert Isaacson: I want to
come on with these courses.

02:30:22.413 --> 02:30:23.313
Where is it?

02:30:23.478 --> 02:30:24.038
Where where do I

02:30:24.038 --> 02:30:24.358
Lynn Thomas: go?

02:30:24.358 --> 02:30:24.918
Oh my gosh.

02:30:24.918 --> 02:30:25.238
Okay.

02:30:25.238 --> 02:30:26.218
Go to our website.

02:30:26.438 --> 02:30:28.518
We are doing them in different
regions of the world.

02:30:28.518 --> 02:30:31.338
So we have Minnesota in June.

02:30:31.543 --> 02:30:33.883
So once a year they're once a
year in the different regions.

02:30:34.303 --> 02:30:37.183
Minnesota in June, we usually
have a Latin America one.

02:30:37.183 --> 02:30:39.798
We have a Australia one In October.

02:30:40.578 --> 02:30:44.228
And then we're gonna have a we
were in the Netherlands this year.

02:30:44.228 --> 02:30:48.563
This twenty twenty four, we're
gonna be in Denmark In September.

02:30:48.623 --> 02:30:49.663
It's not on the website yet.

02:30:49.663 --> 02:30:50.943
It's got we gotta get that up there.

02:30:50.943 --> 02:30:53.213
But so we do them in
those different regions.

02:30:53.213 --> 02:30:57.208
So once a year, Check out our
website or get on our email list.

02:30:57.508 --> 02:30:58.068
And this would be

02:30:58.068 --> 02:30:58.628
Rupert Isaacson: for how long?

02:30:58.628 --> 02:30:59.748
Is this a two day thing?

02:30:59.748 --> 02:31:00.708
Five It's three days.

02:31:00.708 --> 02:31:00.868
Three

02:31:00.868 --> 02:31:01.188
Lynn Thomas: days.

02:31:01.188 --> 02:31:01.768
Three days.

02:31:02.103 --> 02:31:02.903
Rupert Isaacson: Around three years.

02:31:02.903 --> 02:31:03.383
Brilliant.

02:31:03.383 --> 02:31:04.283
How many people?

02:31:07.013 --> 02:31:09.993
Lynn Thomas: They've been around,
like, in the twenty to thirties

02:31:10.468 --> 02:31:10.968
Rupert Isaacson: Range.

02:31:11.028 --> 02:31:11.348
Okay.

02:31:11.348 --> 02:31:11.668
Good.

02:31:11.668 --> 02:31:14.468
So, like, a a a not too
small, but not too big.

02:31:14.468 --> 02:31:19.623
Somewhere where it's intimate, but you
can also divide people up into smaller

02:31:19.623 --> 02:31:22.743
groups and get back together again and

02:31:23.143 --> 02:31:23.643
Lynn Thomas: Right.

02:31:23.783 --> 02:31:24.183
Okay?

02:31:24.183 --> 02:31:24.683
Yep.

02:31:25.143 --> 02:31:25.383
Yep.

02:31:25.383 --> 02:31:26.503
That's exactly right.

02:31:26.503 --> 02:31:30.928
I mean, again, we want I guess
for me and maybe I I Yeah.

02:31:30.928 --> 02:31:31.208
Go ahead.

02:31:31.408 --> 02:31:33.748
In person, it's a time for connection.

02:31:34.128 --> 02:31:34.368
Yeah.

02:31:34.368 --> 02:31:35.888
Because that's why I say no PowerPoints.

02:31:35.888 --> 02:31:38.143
If we're gonna do a PowerPoint,
we can do that online.

02:31:38.363 --> 02:31:38.863
Sure.

02:31:39.483 --> 02:31:41.203
And if if, a lot of this

02:31:41.363 --> 02:31:42.723
Rupert Isaacson: How else
will I fall asleep, Lynn?

02:31:42.723 --> 02:31:46.748
If if you don't put me in a a nice,
um, darkened room with a PowerPoint,

02:31:46.748 --> 02:31:48.348
we can snooze gently in the back.

02:31:48.348 --> 02:31:48.848
And

02:31:50.028 --> 02:31:51.468
Lynn Thomas: Well, there are hammocks.

02:31:51.468 --> 02:31:53.433
Actually, you don't even
need the PowerPoint because

02:31:53.433 --> 02:31:54.393
we're like, you know what?

02:31:54.393 --> 02:31:55.113
Do you?

02:31:55.113 --> 02:31:57.513
We you know, if you need
a break, go take a break.

02:31:57.513 --> 02:32:01.648
This is just about we're here to
learn with Each other and if you wanna

02:32:01.648 --> 02:32:04.768
go sleep in the hammock, you don't
even need a dark end room report.

02:32:04.768 --> 02:32:09.213
You could just go take a hammock
and say, I'm out of here.

02:32:09.213 --> 02:32:10.653
I'm gonna go hang with the horses.

02:32:10.653 --> 02:32:12.433
I that's what I need right now.

02:32:13.373 --> 02:32:13.933
Rupert Isaacson: So okay.

02:32:13.933 --> 02:32:17.118
So if I so if I was in Minnesota
in June, I could do one of these.

02:32:17.548 --> 02:32:18.348
If I was Yeah.

02:32:18.428 --> 02:32:20.668
The other thing in Denmark,
where when would that

02:32:20.668 --> 02:32:21.168
Lynn Thomas: be?

02:32:22.348 --> 02:32:24.703
It's going to be in September Next

02:32:24.703 --> 02:32:25.203
Rupert Isaacson: year?

02:32:25.263 --> 02:32:25.583
Okay.

02:32:25.583 --> 02:32:26.543
Any policy to do the thing?

02:32:26.543 --> 02:32:26.703
Sorry.

02:32:26.703 --> 02:32:27.423
I forgot the exact

02:32:27.423 --> 02:32:27.923
Lynn Thomas: date.

02:32:28.063 --> 02:32:29.583
Do you have Yeah.

02:32:29.583 --> 02:32:33.178
And that's the second weekend
of October is Australia k?

02:32:33.178 --> 02:32:34.318
In Queensland.

02:32:34.618 --> 02:32:35.118
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:32:35.658 --> 02:32:38.158
And are you there yourself at this?

02:32:39.663 --> 02:32:41.103
Lynn Thomas: I have been so far.

02:32:41.103 --> 02:32:41.503
Yes.

02:32:41.503 --> 02:32:42.143
So if we if

02:32:42.143 --> 02:32:45.343
Rupert Isaacson: we wish to touch the
hem of your garment and avert it Right.

02:32:45.583 --> 02:32:48.563
From from your brilliance, that
would be the place to do it.

02:32:49.988 --> 02:32:50.488
Lynn Thomas: Yes.

02:32:50.548 --> 02:32:50.868
Yeah.

02:32:50.868 --> 02:32:52.228
Otherwise, I'm staying hold up.

02:32:52.228 --> 02:32:54.388
And, actually, no.

02:32:54.388 --> 02:32:57.163
You know what's been fun is Yeah.

02:32:57.163 --> 02:33:01.163
I've just been spending more time just
going around to other people's Yeah.

02:33:01.323 --> 02:33:02.283
Trainings and events.

02:33:02.283 --> 02:33:03.563
It's been so fun.

02:33:03.563 --> 02:33:06.463
I like I said, we can
learn from everybody.

02:33:07.598 --> 02:33:12.098
Lynn And if we have the opportunity
to do that, I say absolutely do that.

02:33:12.478 --> 02:33:16.323
And so I've had the wonderful
chance To, come visit you you and

02:33:16.323 --> 02:33:18.023
your tribe, which was amazing.

02:33:18.403 --> 02:33:22.193
And natural I went to the natural
life internship conference, went

02:33:22.193 --> 02:33:23.458
to the herd institute conference.

02:33:23.618 --> 02:33:25.798
Gonna go to the Polyvagal
Equine Institute training.

02:33:26.178 --> 02:33:30.498
And I'm just really at the stage of
life where I'm excited to just flow

02:33:30.498 --> 02:33:33.333
with what It's interesting to me.

02:33:33.713 --> 02:33:34.033
Yeah.

02:33:34.033 --> 02:33:35.313
Rupert Isaacson: And Yeah.

02:33:35.313 --> 02:33:38.993
Well, I I guess what what we've all
found those of us who've been doing this

02:33:38.993 --> 02:33:46.328
for a while, is that as the field has
expanded, it just gets more interesting.

02:33:46.468 --> 02:33:51.003
And as as more people bring more
to it what you're doing here,

02:33:51.003 --> 02:33:52.223
as you say, I'm a storyteller.

02:33:52.603 --> 02:33:55.803
And one of the thing one of the reasons
I find that so attractive is I know

02:33:55.803 --> 02:33:59.868
the healing power of Dory I mean,
everybody does because people talk

02:33:59.868 --> 02:34:05.923
about our species, or we are called
Homo sapiens sapiens, which means

02:34:05.923 --> 02:34:10.083
the thinking ape, but there's nothing
special to our species about thinking.

02:34:10.083 --> 02:34:10.323
Right?

02:34:10.323 --> 02:34:13.298
Anything where the brain thinks, and
many, many things on the planet have

02:34:13.298 --> 02:34:16.608
a brain in fact, you could even say
that many people, if you look at Rupert

02:34:16.608 --> 02:34:19.893
Sheldrake's work or that sort of thing
with the conscious universe and, the

02:34:19.893 --> 02:34:23.573
mycelium network, maybe the entire
everything is conscious and thinking, so

02:34:23.573 --> 02:34:25.173
there's nothing special to us about that.

02:34:25.173 --> 02:34:30.438
But it seems that what we have, which
other let's say, animals don't at

02:34:30.438 --> 02:34:35.638
least, is the the larynx, the voice box,
which is the ability to tell stories.

02:34:35.638 --> 02:34:37.078
So other animals vocalize.

02:34:37.078 --> 02:34:37.383
Right?

02:34:37.464 --> 02:34:41.143
But and they can do it in a in a
very, very, very complex way, but

02:34:41.143 --> 02:34:45.323
we're the ones who write Shakespeare,
rap, epic poetry, whatever.

02:34:45.768 --> 02:34:46.248
That's us.

02:34:46.248 --> 02:34:46.888
That's the humor.

02:34:46.888 --> 02:34:49.228
So, really, we're the
storytelling in it, aren't we?

02:34:49.288 --> 02:34:53.323
And I I find that with with autism,
that's one of the big challenges is is

02:34:53.483 --> 02:35:00.203
when one encounters someone with auto,
a u t o ism, selfism, auto is the Greek

02:35:00.203 --> 02:35:01.724
word for the south, locked in the south.

02:35:01.724 --> 02:35:05.609
The the relationship with the exterior
world is the problem, then it can be

02:35:05.609 --> 02:35:09.369
very difficult for for one not to other
these these people because they're not

02:35:09.369 --> 02:35:13.324
storytelling, at least in a way that
we can immediately understand because

02:35:13.324 --> 02:35:14.544
they're not doing it with the larynx.

02:35:14.764 --> 02:35:17.264
So it's fascinating to me.

02:35:17.324 --> 02:35:20.524
And having lived with hunting
and gathering tribes, what I know

02:35:20.524 --> 02:35:22.689
is that all healing is story.

02:35:22.909 --> 02:35:25.789
So for example, if you go to the the
healer or the shaman, if you're in

02:35:25.789 --> 02:35:27.629
the Kalahari, you go with a story.

02:35:27.629 --> 02:35:30.634
But it you also do that, of course, when
you go to a doctor, you go over the story.

02:35:30.634 --> 02:35:31.514
Oh, oh, it's my leg.

02:35:31.514 --> 02:35:32.234
Oh, it's my this.

02:35:32.234 --> 02:35:33.034
It's my that.

02:35:33.034 --> 02:35:36.874
And then the doctor goes into their
research or into their computer or into

02:35:36.874 --> 02:35:40.539
their knowledge bank or the shaman goes
into the spirit world through an altered

02:35:40.539 --> 02:35:43.259
state of consciousness, then they come
out with a series of instructions because

02:35:43.259 --> 02:35:45.019
they've been told a story in there.

02:35:45.019 --> 02:35:48.414
And then they give you another
story, you then leave, of

02:35:48.414 --> 02:35:50.114
course, and create a new story.

02:35:50.814 --> 02:35:56.698
And so we know that storytelling is
at the absolute center of the healing

02:35:56.759 --> 02:36:01.159
experience for humans, really at the
center of the life experience, and one

02:36:01.159 --> 02:36:04.774
of the things which I've I've found and,
of course, many people who've everyone,

02:36:04.774 --> 02:36:08.134
basically, who's who's ever lived with
a hunting and gathering group has found

02:36:08.134 --> 02:36:12.074
us that the original human cultures
are all cultures of conflict resolution

02:36:12.389 --> 02:36:14.469
because they're all cultures of strategy.

02:36:14.469 --> 02:36:18.069
They're not they're not cultures
of competition because we're

02:36:18.069 --> 02:36:19.189
weak mid level predators.

02:36:19.189 --> 02:36:19.429
Right?

02:36:19.429 --> 02:36:20.789
There's everything out
that's gonna eat us.

02:36:20.789 --> 02:36:23.103
We don't have claws, big
teeth, we're not fast.

02:36:23.164 --> 02:36:25.803
We're not like the other great apes
which can rip a leopard in half.

02:36:25.803 --> 02:36:26.124
No.

02:36:26.124 --> 02:36:26.283
No.

02:36:26.283 --> 02:36:26.444
No.

02:36:26.444 --> 02:36:26.764
No.

02:36:26.764 --> 02:36:29.264
The only way we stand a
chance is if we cooperate.

02:36:29.969 --> 02:36:34.709
And, um, now we are cannibalizing
ourselves a little bit, but it's really

02:36:34.769 --> 02:36:36.209
only the last ten thousand years.

02:36:36.209 --> 02:36:39.474
So I love basically, this is
me just getting excited and

02:36:39.474 --> 02:36:40.834
go blah blah blah blah blah.

02:36:40.834 --> 02:36:47.019
Because what I see you're doing is that
you're really bringing that healing Power

02:36:47.019 --> 02:36:53.819
of Story into the work that we're all
doing and by putting it into it sorry.

02:36:53.819 --> 02:36:56.734
It's character, author and editor.

02:36:56.794 --> 02:36:57.353
Is that right?

02:36:57.353 --> 02:36:57.853
Lynn Thomas: Viewer.

02:36:58.344 --> 02:37:00.444
Character, viewer, author.

02:37:00.503 --> 02:37:01.864
Now the client is the author.

02:37:01.864 --> 02:37:05.999
We look at ourselves as facilitators, as
story editors, meaning not the kind that

02:37:05.999 --> 02:37:09.439
corrects or not the proofreading kind,
the kind of story editors that support

02:37:09.439 --> 02:37:11.119
authors in deepening their stories.

02:37:11.119 --> 02:37:11.759
But what you've

02:37:11.759 --> 02:37:14.884
Rupert Isaacson: basically got
that is is the is the classic

02:37:15.424 --> 02:37:17.363
structure of good storytelling.

02:37:17.504 --> 02:37:17.744
Right?

02:37:17.744 --> 02:37:19.363
Because you've got always a prologue.

02:37:19.504 --> 02:37:19.904
Right?

02:37:19.904 --> 02:37:23.989
So it starts at the height of the
action, either there's a crisis, you

02:37:24.209 --> 02:37:26.069
you say I've got a problem or something.

02:37:26.929 --> 02:37:31.954
Then there's act one, the call for
adventure, the adventure is always

02:37:31.954 --> 02:37:34.854
reluctantly pulled in, doesn't
want to because it's a schlep.

02:37:35.209 --> 02:37:37.628
Then there's act two, it all goes wrong.

02:37:37.959 --> 02:37:42.759
And at the end of act two, the their
protagonist, has to go and learn something

02:37:42.759 --> 02:37:44.064
and change something about themselves.

02:37:44.064 --> 02:37:47.204
Go find Yoda and learn how
to use the force or whatever.

02:37:47.504 --> 02:37:52.114
Act three, they reencounter Darth Vader,
and it all goes wrong again just as the

02:37:52.114 --> 02:37:57.178
lightsabers at their throat, they remember
what Yoda showed them and call upon it

02:37:57.578 --> 02:38:01.098
an effective change and then epilogue,
you see them leave into a changed world.

02:38:01.098 --> 02:38:02.538
I mean, that's every story.

02:38:02.538 --> 02:38:02.698
Right?

02:38:02.698 --> 02:38:06.458
That's the power and that's basically
everyone's life story, more or less, and

02:38:06.458 --> 02:38:13.823
everyone's seasons of life story, you've
absolutely broken down this work into that

02:38:14.043 --> 02:38:17.968
hero's journey which I think is is the
universal human experience, and whether

02:38:17.968 --> 02:38:19.408
you did that consciously, I don't know.

02:38:19.408 --> 02:38:24.553
Did you do that consciously, or or did
that just come from the the Akashic record

02:38:24.803 --> 02:38:28.723
from from the from the from the greater
conscious universe into you, because it's

02:38:28.723 --> 02:38:30.663
it's really inspired what you've done.

02:38:31.458 --> 02:38:34.418
Lynn Thomas: Well, I mean, absolutely,
I think we can learn so much from

02:38:34.418 --> 02:38:37.378
story and storytelling, exactly what
you're saying, the hero's journey.

02:38:37.378 --> 02:38:40.953
And When we look at our life that
way, we get those new perspectives.

02:38:41.733 --> 02:38:43.253
And so as to what you're saying.

02:38:43.253 --> 02:38:46.053
And then I I was curious for you.

02:38:46.053 --> 02:38:52.688
I mean So when you had the experience
you had with Rowan going to Mongolia,

02:38:53.868 --> 02:38:59.343
um, and you had that experience, And
then you chose to put it on paper.

02:39:00.203 --> 02:39:05.728
And I'm curious for you, like, what
was your experience like Of integrating

02:39:05.728 --> 02:39:09.908
that experience by going from actually
being in it to then putting it on paper.

02:39:10.368 --> 02:39:13.748
Because you were a character in it,
and then you became an author of it.

02:39:14.953 --> 02:39:15.193
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:39:15.193 --> 02:39:16.553
That's a very good question.

02:39:16.553 --> 02:39:17.933
I was asked me that before.

02:39:19.223 --> 02:39:24.518
aS it was happening, I was writing it
down so I was writing down every moment,

02:39:25.218 --> 02:39:30.278
um, and I knew I couldn't make anything
up because there were cameras on.

02:39:30.853 --> 02:39:33.353
And the people behind
the cameras were not me.

02:39:33.653 --> 02:39:36.133
So it was the best will in the world.

02:39:36.133 --> 02:39:37.993
They were gonna show what
they were gonna show.

02:39:39.788 --> 02:39:45.948
So it kept things authentic, but
I also knew that I would be able

02:39:45.948 --> 02:39:48.563
to see things the camera couldn't
see because, obviously, there's my

02:39:48.563 --> 02:39:52.033
internal experience and then there's
the camera can only point one way.

02:39:52.033 --> 02:39:55.648
There might be, a bird flying over
the hill or a particular light

02:39:55.648 --> 02:39:59.408
falling on a mountainside that that
that camera can't get because it's

02:39:59.408 --> 02:40:02.228
pointed at me or it's pointed at a
horse or it's pointed at a round.

02:40:03.503 --> 02:40:06.163
So I realized that there were
these multiple perspectives.

02:40:07.373 --> 02:40:13.908
And so it became important to do more
than journal, but to really try to

02:40:13.908 --> 02:40:21.933
chronicle, I think is would be the word,
the experience as we went so I filled up

02:40:21.933 --> 02:40:25.533
notebooks as I went, and it became you
know, I would be leaping off the horse

02:40:25.533 --> 02:40:29.967
to to scribble things because I would
have Rowan in front of me, and I couldn't

02:40:29.967 --> 02:40:31.487
actually write, while that was going on.

02:40:31.487 --> 02:40:37.103
So, and then later when the time
came to to write the book, I

02:40:37.103 --> 02:40:38.883
had that record to draw upon.

02:40:38.942 --> 02:40:50.078
And, um, the the the the the the detached
observer who's always there in all of us,

02:40:50.078 --> 02:40:54.103
right, whenever any of us is going through
something, no matter what it is, I mean,

02:40:54.103 --> 02:40:55.703
something banal, you're driving your car.

02:40:55.703 --> 02:40:58.423
There's always a part of you observing
yourself driving the car, and there's

02:40:58.423 --> 02:40:59.963
a part of you driving the car.

02:41:00.053 --> 02:41:03.168
And consciousness is a really
interesting thing because there's

02:41:03.168 --> 02:41:07.248
that part of us that is us, I.

02:41:07.248 --> 02:41:07.748
E.

02:41:08.053 --> 02:41:11.013
Rupert going downstairs now to have a
glass of wine or something, and there's

02:41:11.013 --> 02:41:13.653
that other part of me observing Rupert
going down, have a glass of wine.

02:41:13.653 --> 02:41:15.253
I say, Rupert, do you really
need that glass of wine?

02:41:15.503 --> 02:41:16.543
To which the answer is clearly yes.

02:41:17.303 --> 02:41:25.618
So that then became clearer, obviously
as I was then able to review what had

02:41:25.618 --> 02:41:27.378
been written because you don't remember.

02:41:27.378 --> 02:41:28.018
That's the thing.

02:41:28.018 --> 02:41:32.243
You remember certain things, but you
don't remember at and then you you

02:41:32.243 --> 02:41:33.843
can look at it and go, oh oh, yes.

02:41:33.843 --> 02:41:34.083
Gosh.

02:41:34.083 --> 02:41:34.643
That happened.

02:41:34.643 --> 02:41:36.723
And then, of course, then we're
at the same time, we're editing

02:41:36.723 --> 02:41:40.368
the film, and we're editing two
hundred and fifty hours footage.

02:41:40.828 --> 02:41:48.428
So we were looking at a lot of stuff
and remembering and being reminded of

02:41:48.428 --> 02:41:53.163
and then wondering how to condense it
down so it was a coherent narrative that

02:41:53.163 --> 02:41:58.718
wouldn't just send everybody to sleep,
so we know we really went through that.

02:41:58.718 --> 02:42:02.238
And then and then what happens is you go
through other people's reactions to your

02:42:02.238 --> 02:42:08.543
story, and then your own reactions to
other people's reactions to your story and

02:42:08.683 --> 02:42:14.748
then the story taking on a greater energy
and going on and doing its own thing so so

02:42:14.748 --> 02:42:19.647
what happened with Horse Boy with, Horse
Boy now I feel I'm being interviewed here.

02:42:19.647 --> 02:42:23.552
But, uh, second, I'm flipping
into interviewee mode.

02:42:23.642 --> 02:42:28.702
But what was interesting was that I could
feel from the get go on an intuitive

02:42:28.842 --> 02:42:34.377
level in my solar plexus, in my gut, in
my gut villi inside my gut, I could feel

02:42:34.377 --> 02:42:42.482
that there was some ancestral process
at work where there was a job to do

02:42:43.342 --> 02:42:52.137
with this story and that I had stumbled
into by to know a talent or intelligence

02:42:52.277 --> 02:42:54.787
of my own a series of being mentored.

02:42:54.787 --> 02:42:58.422
I was mentored by Temple Grandin,
then I was mentored by Rowan, then

02:42:58.422 --> 02:43:00.822
I was mentored by Betsy, then I was
mentored by the Schrammster, then I

02:43:00.822 --> 02:43:02.202
was mentored by the neuroscientists.

02:43:03.062 --> 02:43:07.987
And that all resulted in something
replicable that today we would call

02:43:07.987 --> 02:43:09.907
horse boy method or movement method.

02:43:09.907 --> 02:43:14.322
But, um, I could feel even before
any of that happened that there was

02:43:14.322 --> 02:43:18.802
something at work, a a shift, a a
pull, that I must just keep putting one

02:43:18.802 --> 02:43:23.727
foot in front of the other, and that
is the power of story, I think, that

02:43:23.727 --> 02:43:25.987
you can sense story as it's evolving.

02:43:26.767 --> 02:43:35.462
You can sense story when it's still
unformed, but calling, and this is why

02:43:35.462 --> 02:43:36.982
people go and do things in the world.

02:43:37.032 --> 02:43:41.597
So I I think that what you're doing,
just to bring it back to you with Arch,

02:43:42.137 --> 02:43:50.672
is if you can help people to facilitate
that process I just described, because

02:43:50.672 --> 02:43:57.367
everybody has a story like that in them
in their life, which is of great benefit

02:43:57.367 --> 02:44:00.408
to everybody else because, I went through
this thing of, well, then why make why

02:44:00.408 --> 02:44:03.142
go public with it, why why not just say
I fell into this thing with this horse,

02:44:03.142 --> 02:44:04.582
Betsy, that it's great for my son.

02:44:04.582 --> 02:44:07.222
He started speaking, and then he got
literate, and then he got numerate.

02:44:07.222 --> 02:44:09.942
And, yeah, I observed it working for
other kids, but I just keep this one

02:44:09.942 --> 02:44:12.027
to myself honestly, that's easier.

02:44:12.327 --> 02:44:17.607
But as a as a father who was in crisis
surrounded by other parents who were in

02:44:17.607 --> 02:44:20.952
the same crisis, having stumbled into
something that worked, I I realized

02:44:20.952 --> 02:44:25.592
that I had a bit of an obligation to
make it available if I possibly could, I

02:44:25.592 --> 02:44:33.627
think that what you're doing here we'll
allow an awful lot of people to do that

02:44:33.627 --> 02:44:40.442
because if we, the human species, are
effectively a storytelling species and a

02:44:40.442 --> 02:44:45.902
conflict resolution species, and you are
doing something with arenas for change

02:44:46.747 --> 02:44:54.932
where that can be magnified, perhaps
for people who for whom story is is

02:44:54.932 --> 02:44:58.152
something of a new concept even though
they've been unconsciously living it,

02:44:59.412 --> 02:45:02.552
then the net effect must be more healing.

02:45:02.807 --> 02:45:07.307
Right, it can only be more healing
because that is what story does.

02:45:08.327 --> 02:45:10.587
So that's just amazing
to me what you're doing.

02:45:11.292 --> 02:45:12.492
Lynn Thomas: Oh, and thank yeah.

02:45:12.492 --> 02:45:13.372
Thank you for sharing.

02:45:13.372 --> 02:45:15.612
That was so beautifully summarized too.

02:45:15.612 --> 02:45:20.432
And and I think, again, that was such a
neat example of you had an experience.

02:45:20.652 --> 02:45:24.047
You were in this experience with
your son, and you were feeling it.

02:45:24.047 --> 02:45:28.607
And then you had the experience of
writing it down while you were there.

02:45:28.607 --> 02:45:31.732
And that Learning that you got from
that, then you had the experience

02:45:31.732 --> 02:45:36.692
of putting it on paper and then also
watching footage video footage and

02:45:36.692 --> 02:45:43.627
then Responding to the stories of other
viewers, like, you relived and looked

02:45:43.627 --> 02:45:50.622
and experienced that same experience In
multiple ways with multiple perspectives.

02:45:51.322 --> 02:45:53.802
I mean, each one of those and I
think you're absolutely right.

02:45:53.802 --> 02:45:56.537
I mean, How that expanded your story?

02:45:56.537 --> 02:46:01.977
What insights they that gave you to
watch yourself on video, to write it in

02:46:01.977 --> 02:46:07.522
a book, To see how other people respond,
um, how that expanded your story, how

02:46:07.522 --> 02:46:13.127
that deepened that same story, Um,
and where it took you by doing that.

02:46:13.747 --> 02:46:14.787
So you're absolutely right.

02:46:14.787 --> 02:46:18.467
That is our hope that as facilitators,
we can create similar experiences like

02:46:18.467 --> 02:46:22.342
that with our clients where they can
experiencing things from all those

02:46:22.342 --> 02:46:30.667
multiple storytelling perspectives Of
different distances like that from their

02:46:30.667 --> 02:46:32.587
experience that and with their experience.

02:46:32.587 --> 02:46:34.768
So I think it does deepen.

02:46:34.828 --> 02:46:36.207
It deepens the experience.

02:46:36.402 --> 02:46:39.222
It helps us see new perspectives
we may not have seen.

02:46:39.282 --> 02:46:41.042
It helps takes us in new directions.

02:46:41.042 --> 02:46:44.562
Our stories are impacted in ways
they wouldn't have been had we

02:46:44.562 --> 02:46:45.942
not gone through that journey.

02:46:46.227 --> 02:46:46.547
Yeah.

02:46:46.547 --> 02:46:46.788
Rupert Isaacson: No.

02:46:46.788 --> 02:46:47.747
I I I agree.

02:46:47.747 --> 02:46:52.547
It's and I think I think we're not
allowed or in our current society a

02:46:52.547 --> 02:46:54.312
little bit to look at our lives that way.

02:46:54.553 --> 02:46:59.612
We'll we we or or to look we we can
look at them linearly as stories.

02:47:00.072 --> 02:47:00.973
I was here.

02:47:01.647 --> 02:47:04.257
That's the past, now
I've got this present.

02:47:04.797 --> 02:47:07.197
I'm supposed to always be in the
present moment, and then there's this

02:47:07.197 --> 02:47:10.702
future that hasn't yet happened here
but what if it's all simultaneous?

02:47:11.082 --> 02:47:16.382
Like, that say that's very much, say,
the the sun bushman or the Aboriginal

02:47:17.007 --> 02:47:20.207
Australian perspective, is that actually
they call the dream time or whatever.

02:47:20.207 --> 02:47:25.872
That's past, present, and future are
really the same thing and and this linear

02:47:25.872 --> 02:47:30.762
line that we're following is a sort
of stubborn illusion created perhaps

02:47:30.762 --> 02:47:34.522
by gravity, the time could even be a
construct of gravity, that's that's

02:47:34.522 --> 02:47:41.387
what Einstein was hinting at, and the
multiple perspectives, whether or not

02:47:41.387 --> 02:47:44.747
you believe in a multiverse or whether
you believe in past, present, future

02:47:44.747 --> 02:47:47.567
all the same time or whether you think
it's all in it, doesn't much matter.

02:47:48.172 --> 02:47:51.212
Because what we do know is
that we experience things

02:47:51.212 --> 02:47:52.271
from multiple perspectives.

02:47:52.652 --> 02:47:58.327
And I think that if you, through
Arch, are drawing people's attention

02:47:58.327 --> 02:48:01.207
to that, the healing potential
of that, I think, is that, as you

02:48:01.207 --> 02:48:06.242
say, when someone has perspective
on a problem, that is soothing.

02:48:06.542 --> 02:48:10.322
It's automatically soothing to
look at a problem from the outside.

02:48:12.097 --> 02:48:14.977
People talk about taking the macro
perspective or imagining that you

02:48:14.977 --> 02:48:18.657
were looking down from space at
your problem, but I and all of

02:48:18.657 --> 02:48:20.597
these things are useful tools.

02:48:21.822 --> 02:48:27.101
However they can be a little hard to
achieve or to to suddenly jump to.

02:48:27.101 --> 02:48:29.327
Oh, suddenly, I'm just gonna look
at my thing from the outside.

02:48:29.327 --> 02:48:33.007
I think what you're talking about
here is guiding people through a step

02:48:33.007 --> 02:48:41.312
by step process where each of these
small steps from, uh, character to

02:48:41.312 --> 02:48:46.327
viewer to author, and then you've
also got you guys as editors, but

02:48:46.407 --> 02:48:49.387
perhaps they could also become learn
to become their own editors, etcetera.

02:48:49.847 --> 02:48:51.766
Editor's lovely because
you can rewrite a story.

02:48:51.766 --> 02:48:55.802
You can go back and make amends
if you feel you've done something

02:48:55.802 --> 02:48:59.482
wrong, even in your mind, in your
heart, that's actually still putting

02:48:59.482 --> 02:49:00.682
it out there into the universe.

02:49:00.682 --> 02:49:05.267
You can forgive somebody even if you
have not see you can't see them anymore.

02:49:05.267 --> 02:49:06.067
Maybe they're even dead.

02:49:06.067 --> 02:49:12.751
But you you can do that, and that affects
the story, yours and the greater one and

02:49:12.751 --> 02:49:16.851
theirs and so on and so on, I love this.

02:49:17.766 --> 02:49:22.886
So by by taking it down into these
small step by step processes as you as

02:49:22.886 --> 02:49:31.781
you describe, each of which is in its
individual form, you can help someone

02:49:31.781 --> 02:49:34.806
do something that's actually quite
complex by by putting them all together.

02:49:34.806 --> 02:49:37.766
Whereas if you said, be in the present
moment or, look at it from the outside

02:49:37.766 --> 02:49:41.206
and have perspective on it or that would
be a tall order because it's too big

02:49:41.206 --> 02:49:46.761
of a jump from where one is now to that
thing, but these stages that you've

02:49:46.761 --> 02:49:48.621
outlined, I think, make it possible.

02:49:50.096 --> 02:49:50.496
Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

02:49:50.496 --> 02:49:52.676
And and it's fun, and it's engaging.

02:49:52.816 --> 02:49:54.036
Stories are fun and easy.

02:49:54.256 --> 02:49:54.756
Fun?

02:49:55.136 --> 02:49:56.496
Where there it can be fun.

02:49:56.496 --> 02:49:57.716
I It's a lot of fun.

02:49:58.186 --> 02:49:58.621
Fun.

02:49:59.581 --> 02:50:02.971
I mean, horse is already engaged,
help people feel more engaged.

02:50:02.971 --> 02:50:06.651
And then when you add into when
the clients start, having that

02:50:06.956 --> 02:50:09.636
it's a timing thing when they are
able to step back and look at it

02:50:09.636 --> 02:50:10.857
from those different perspectives.

02:50:10.917 --> 02:50:12.677
But when they do it, the
next thing, it's like, yeah.

02:50:12.677 --> 02:50:16.172
What I wonder what is gonna happen
next in this unfolding Story that we

02:50:16.172 --> 02:50:19.961
don't know where it's actually going
and the horses just keep changing

02:50:19.961 --> 02:50:23.401
things unpredictably, and then the
story changes, and it's like, woah.

02:50:23.401 --> 02:50:24.142
What's happening?

02:50:24.466 --> 02:50:28.146
But we have found that with the
clients, it's been really effective

02:50:28.146 --> 02:50:33.151
and impactful in in sparking
that curiosity and, like, Yeah.

02:50:33.151 --> 02:50:38.111
This is this is a story, and I'm I'm
in the story, but I'm writing the

02:50:38.111 --> 02:50:40.591
story, Or I'm authoring the story.

02:50:40.591 --> 02:50:43.251
It doesn't mean we control everything
in our life because characters

02:50:43.312 --> 02:50:45.391
have to go into the unknown.

02:50:45.391 --> 02:50:45.791
Rupert Isaacson: But Right.

02:50:45.791 --> 02:50:48.937
And any anyone who's ever written a
story knows characters have a funny habit

02:50:48.937 --> 02:50:50.957
of doing whatever they wanna do Yeah.

02:50:51.656 --> 02:50:52.136
Right now.

02:50:52.136 --> 02:50:53.896
I'm saying, my characters do not behave.

02:50:53.896 --> 02:50:57.241
I structure out what they're gonna do,
and they just rebel all the time and

02:50:57.401 --> 02:51:00.761
breaking on characters, and it's just

02:51:00.761 --> 02:51:01.741
Lynn Thomas: like So yeah.

02:51:01.801 --> 02:51:02.041
Yeah.

02:51:02.041 --> 02:51:05.001
I mean, we get new insights,
and it and it can be intriguing

02:51:05.001 --> 02:51:06.776
and interesting just like it is.

02:51:06.936 --> 02:51:10.375
In fact we were just sharing, like,
with this veterans group, one of our

02:51:10.375 --> 02:51:14.035
programs member programs was sharing
about they call it each each week is

02:51:14.035 --> 02:51:17.655
called an episode, and they title the
episode, and they get really excited

02:51:17.715 --> 02:51:20.330
about coming coming back and, Okay.

02:51:20.330 --> 02:51:21.530
What's gonna be the next part?

02:51:21.530 --> 02:51:23.070
What's gonna be in the next episode?

02:51:23.160 --> 02:51:26.920
And they do a little trailer to talk about
the last episode, the last week's session.

02:51:26.920 --> 02:51:27.400
Well, okay.

02:51:27.400 --> 02:51:31.375
Here's a little trailer,
previously on, and then you know?

02:51:31.375 --> 02:51:31.875
Okay.

02:51:32.495 --> 02:51:34.495
And then they get to
experience the next one.

02:51:34.495 --> 02:51:38.430
So, it it's again, It doesn't
have to always look like that.

02:51:38.430 --> 02:51:41.090
It's more we're just we're
adding tools in our toolbox.

02:51:41.230 --> 02:51:45.185
And as facilitators, I
know it's helped me yeah.

02:51:45.185 --> 02:51:50.545
Watching the sessions as a story,
because then I start looking at

02:51:50.545 --> 02:51:53.425
things as characters, and I wonder
what the main character, who the

02:51:53.425 --> 02:51:57.350
impact characters are and and some of
their characteristics, and it and it

02:51:57.350 --> 02:52:00.010
brings out my own curiosity as well.

02:52:00.070 --> 02:52:00.390
Right.

02:52:00.390 --> 02:52:04.275
And what's important about the
Space itself and the learning itself

02:52:04.275 --> 02:52:05.075
Rupert Isaacson: is very healing.

02:52:05.075 --> 02:52:05.315
Right?

02:52:05.315 --> 02:52:07.655
The learning brain is the happy brain.

02:52:08.355 --> 02:52:08.835
Yeah.

02:52:08.835 --> 02:52:11.415
As you said earlier, under
stress, one cannot learn.

02:52:11.620 --> 02:52:13.460
But we are curious, curious monkeys.

02:52:13.460 --> 02:52:13.960
Right?

02:52:14.100 --> 02:52:18.340
And I could see how doing what
you're doing also allows people

02:52:18.340 --> 02:52:20.875
through that perspective to take
things less personally, including

02:52:20.875 --> 02:52:24.155
you as the facilitator, right, and
when Susan stops taking something

02:52:24.155 --> 02:52:26.875
personally, you're healed.

02:52:26.875 --> 02:52:27.375
Right?

02:52:27.595 --> 02:52:29.455
Or at least you're along
the path to healing.

02:52:32.400 --> 02:52:35.550
Lynn Thomas: Well, I will say if
people are interested to learn more

02:52:35.550 --> 02:52:39.645
on our website arenas for change dot
com, On some of the pages, I know

02:52:39.645 --> 02:52:41.886
the story page, the newsletter page.

02:52:41.886 --> 02:52:43.985
There's there's a
freebie you can download.

02:52:44.645 --> 02:52:48.360
It's a little ebook about Story and it
takes you part of that little ebook,

02:52:48.360 --> 02:52:51.500
it takes you through an experience
that you get to do on yourself.

02:52:52.040 --> 02:52:56.005
And so if people wanna kinda get in more
of a feel about it, You can go there.

02:52:56.005 --> 02:52:58.485
Sign up for our email list
as part of that, and you get

02:52:58.485 --> 02:53:00.485
our ebook, but it's it's fun.

02:53:00.485 --> 02:53:04.266
Might get a a feel for what it can
look like and what you can learn too.

02:53:04.681 --> 02:53:05.400
Rupert Isaacson: This is amazing.

02:53:05.400 --> 02:53:05.720
Okay.

02:53:05.720 --> 02:53:12.685
So we're gonna have to we we've gone for a
long time, and there's more I want to ask.

02:53:12.926 --> 02:53:15.426
So here's what I'd like
to do if you're amenable.

02:53:15.965 --> 02:53:17.906
You talked about what's the next episode.

02:53:18.475 --> 02:53:22.420
Well, for me, what I'd like to do is
I would like to come back actually

02:53:22.560 --> 02:53:27.520
on this podcast with you and do a
separate one on arenas for change.

02:53:27.520 --> 02:53:31.055
I think that I think that we've,
introduced this concept, but it's

02:53:31.055 --> 02:53:34.815
a it there's a lot more here that
I'd like to delve into, and I'm

02:53:34.815 --> 02:53:36.835
sure view listeners would do.

02:53:37.160 --> 02:53:40.440
The same, of course with
horses for mental health.

02:53:40.440 --> 02:53:46.645
And so if it would be okay with you,
because we covered about since nineteen

02:53:46.645 --> 02:53:52.880
ninety nine to here in this podcast,
it's a fair bit of ground, and I'm so

02:53:52.880 --> 02:53:56.020
grateful and you've massively informed me.

02:53:56.750 --> 02:53:59.364
So what I would like to do, if
possible, is could we come back?

02:53:59.374 --> 02:54:02.754
It's now we're having this
conversation December sixth.

02:54:03.535 --> 02:54:08.070
May is going to be the month four
horses for mental health and and getting

02:54:08.070 --> 02:54:11.750
all that stuff together, perhaps do
you think it might be a good idea if

02:54:11.750 --> 02:54:15.395
we come back and we look at that in
more depth during that month, if you

02:54:15.395 --> 02:54:18.515
have the time, you might be very busy
or perhaps leading up to that month.

02:54:18.515 --> 02:54:19.415
You tell me.

02:54:19.795 --> 02:54:23.075
And then I would like to do something
in more detail on this healing

02:54:23.075 --> 02:54:27.550
power of story, please with arenas
for change so that we can give it

02:54:27.550 --> 02:54:30.290
its due, would that be amenable?

02:54:30.905 --> 02:54:31.945
Lynn Thomas: Well, that's amazing.

02:54:31.945 --> 02:54:32.345
Yes.

02:54:32.345 --> 02:54:33.705
We'd absolutely love to.

02:54:33.705 --> 02:54:37.085
And, yeah, we can
definitely talk and talk.

02:54:37.385 --> 02:54:42.211
I don't know how long this has actually
been, but, Tom Oh, I need five days.

02:54:42.211 --> 02:54:44.223
So It's been so engaging.

02:54:44.223 --> 02:54:46.234
It's been so engaging for me.

02:54:46.234 --> 02:54:48.580
I appreciate your questions
and your curiosity.

02:54:48.660 --> 02:54:53.700
And, um, so, yes, I would be
honored to come back and and

02:54:53.700 --> 02:54:54.920
continue having conversations.

02:54:55.140 --> 02:54:55.780
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

02:54:55.780 --> 02:54:59.715
Well, let's do it because, there's
there's just so much to cover.

02:55:00.415 --> 02:55:04.415
Once again, before we sign off on
this one, please the websites where

02:55:04.415 --> 02:55:05.795
people can go for information.

02:55:06.960 --> 02:55:10.100
Lynn Thomas: So first is horses
for mental health dot org.

02:55:11.200 --> 02:55:13.920
And, again, definitely sign up
on our email list there and check

02:55:13.920 --> 02:55:15.535
out our different Resources.

02:55:15.675 --> 02:55:19.675
In fact, we have a a research summary
resource peep programs can use to download

02:55:19.675 --> 02:55:24.480
to give the evidence base, Along with
a lot of other information and the

02:55:24.480 --> 02:55:26.580
videos and about the campaign there.

02:55:26.880 --> 02:55:31.300
And then the other website
is arenas for change dot com.

02:55:32.175 --> 02:55:35.375
aNd would love for you to come
check us out and and even join

02:55:35.375 --> 02:55:39.215
us for a month if you want and
learn everything you can learn.

02:55:39.215 --> 02:55:43.830
And We just love learning with
whoever wants to come and join in with

02:55:43.830 --> 02:55:44.150
Rupert Isaacson: us.

02:55:44.150 --> 02:55:47.210
So horses for mental health dot org?

02:55:47.935 --> 02:55:48.595
Lynn Thomas: Dot org.

02:55:49.375 --> 02:55:52.275
Arenas arenas for change dot com.

02:55:52.415 --> 02:55:54.095
Rupert Isaacson: Arenas
for change dot com.

02:55:54.095 --> 02:55:54.735
Very good.

02:55:54.735 --> 02:55:55.135
You have

02:55:55.135 --> 02:55:55.635
Lynn Thomas: it.

02:55:56.160 --> 02:55:56.560
Yes.

02:55:56.560 --> 02:55:56.960
Yes.

02:55:56.960 --> 02:55:57.440
You're right.

02:55:57.440 --> 02:56:00.480
I I wasn't satisfied with
starting another one new business.

02:56:00.480 --> 02:56:01.940
We start two new businesses.

02:56:02.320 --> 02:56:05.795
Rupert Isaacson: One one dot org
and one dot com, which is its

02:56:05.795 --> 02:56:06.535
Lynn Thomas: own panel.

02:56:06.595 --> 02:56:10.035
I question that quite a bit sometimes
too, but they are very different purposes.

02:56:10.035 --> 02:56:11.155
So Welcome to your

02:56:11.155 --> 02:56:12.185
Rupert Isaacson: story Lynn Thomas.

02:56:15.250 --> 02:56:15.650
Alright.

02:56:15.650 --> 02:56:16.210
Well, listen.

02:56:16.260 --> 02:56:17.080
Thank you.

02:56:18.900 --> 02:56:20.600
We will reconvene.

02:56:22.745 --> 02:56:23.465
Lynn Thomas: Well, thank you.

02:56:23.465 --> 02:56:29.465
Thanks for all you do to spread the
word and transform lives, and, also,

02:56:29.465 --> 02:56:30.925
thanks for everybody for listening.

02:56:30.985 --> 02:56:31.385
Appreciate

02:56:31.385 --> 02:56:31.690
Rupert Isaacson: it.

02:56:32.250 --> 02:56:33.150
It's been amazing.

02:56:33.450 --> 02:56:33.950
Alright.

02:56:34.010 --> 02:56:40.955
So until the next time, I guess we
will do that difficult thing where we

02:56:40.955 --> 02:56:43.195
press that red button because I don't
wanna press that red button because

02:56:43.195 --> 02:56:44.075
Lynn Thomas: it's been so amazing.

02:56:44.075 --> 02:56:46.635
Well, actually, that's one of the
things we do with our clients is invite

02:56:46.635 --> 02:56:49.660
them how they would wanna close the
episode or close closed the scene.

02:56:49.660 --> 02:56:50.540
You have to close it.

02:56:50.540 --> 02:56:50.700
Yeah.

02:56:50.700 --> 02:56:52.960
Sometimes they say they
wanna push the pause button.

02:56:53.020 --> 02:56:54.780
Sometimes they put a bookmark in it.

02:56:54.780 --> 02:56:58.235
We had a client that actually
literally Said he wanted to do

02:56:58.235 --> 02:57:02.335
a fade out, and we all literally
walked backwards to do a fade out.

02:57:03.195 --> 02:57:04.390
So we had fun with that too.

02:57:04.390 --> 02:57:04.955
But yeah.

02:57:04.955 --> 02:57:05.455
Really?

02:57:06.410 --> 02:57:08.330
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, then in that case

02:57:08.490 --> 02:57:09.310
Lynn Thomas: To be continued.

02:57:09.370 --> 02:57:10.170
Dot dot dot.

02:57:10.170 --> 02:57:11.150
How about that?

02:57:11.210 --> 02:57:11.690
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:57:11.690 --> 02:57:12.750
We have some music.

02:57:16.235 --> 02:57:16.555
Alright.

02:57:16.555 --> 02:57:17.615
Till the next time.

02:57:17.995 --> 02:57:18.475
Can't wait.

02:57:18.475 --> 02:57:19.675
Lynn, thank you so much.

02:57:19.675 --> 02:57:21.375
Thank you for yeah.

02:57:21.675 --> 02:57:22.415
Thank you.

02:57:22.955 --> 02:57:23.275
Alright.

02:57:23.275 --> 02:57:24.095
Thank you.

02:57:24.173 --> 02:57:25.283
thank you for joining us.

02:57:25.313 --> 02:57:27.143
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:57:27.381 --> 02:57:32.421
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:57:32.421 --> 02:57:37.611
courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

02:57:38.319 --> 02:57:42.967
These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

02:57:42.967 --> 02:57:44.977
dealing with trauma around the world.

02:57:45.304 --> 02:57:49.054
We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

02:57:49.054 --> 02:57:52.294
for riders on long ride home.com.

02:57:52.593 --> 02:57:56.643
These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

02:57:56.643 --> 02:57:58.563
bring you and your horse joy.

02:57:59.099 --> 02:58:03.659
For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

02:58:03.989 --> 02:58:04.919
See you on the next show.