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Welcome back to their episode
of the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan
joint, as always by my

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friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will, Schroeder will,
speaking of friends, speaking

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of friends as as founders,
often, uh, I think we, we have

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this feeling that like, you
know, we, we wanna call our

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startup a family and hug fest.

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Culture can feel great,
uh, right, until you have

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to fire cousin Eddie.

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But like, well, like maybe
early on, especially we, we

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wanna be everybody's friend.

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But I think one of the things
we wanna dig into today is like,

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does everybody actually wanna
be our friend, right, as the

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founder, does everyone want to
reciprocate that relationship?

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Where are the boundaries?

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Where, where do we need to
draw these lines between

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like, let's say healthy
empathy and the potential

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for a liability hangover?

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Yeah, it's a great
way to put it.

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It didn't occur to me for
a long time that people

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wouldn't want to be my friend.

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Like this is me
being narcissistic.

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I mean, it's just me being
more like, just unaware.

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So Ryan, early in our careers,
we both got started, you know,

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very early, like, you know,
in our early twenties and at

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the time everyone was just
like naturally peer, right?

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Yeah.

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So like all of my coworkers
at Blue Diesel, my first

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company, interactive agency,
were all my age or older.

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And by older I mean
like I was 22 let's say,

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and they were 26 or 24.

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I mean like I remember we
had one guy that showed up

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and he had turned 30 and
we gave him endless crap.

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I'm sure we bought him a cane.

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We like it just like it.

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And it was funny.

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Is as crazy as it
sounds now, right?

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What's funny is we
are fairly serious.

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Like, like we're like,
dude, you're aging

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out right?

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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They, they, but on a
relative scale, it was

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significantly older.

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But I think there's
something to that will Yeah.

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And it'd be interesting to,
to talk to some founders

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who started a bit later
in their founder career.

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Yeah.

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To see if that same
muscle got built.

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One of the things that I
realized was that because of the

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age which I started and because
of the things I was foregoing

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by virtue of having started
a company, we've talked about

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this on other podcasts, right.

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Wasn't going out to
parties, didn't join a frat.

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Yeah.

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Wasn't dating a lot like
all these other things

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that I was foregoing.

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Yeah.

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And late nights working.

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Right, right.

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Always on thinking
about the business.

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So I didn't have room for
socialization, friends and

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other family, so I adopted or
wanted to adopt my colleagues.

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Yep.

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As my friends and my family
based on my own need.

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Now, a lot of them, all of them.

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Had a very different level of
attachment to the business.

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It wasn't their business.

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Right.

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They were working for me
out of my college home.

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Right, right.

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Yes.

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There was a cool Counterstrike
server that we had at the end of

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the day and they all loved that.

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But if I turned that off,
I wonder how many of them

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would've left immediately.

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Right.

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Point being they didn't
have the same need.

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They could go out at five or
six o'clock when, when work was

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done for them and have a normal
life and have other friends

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and have family relationships.

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I didn't, and so I think
part of what set that pattern

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of my startup is my family.

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Was, I didn't have
an alternative.

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Yeah, I get it.

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And you know what?

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It didn't occur to me
that anything could

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go wrong in my mind.

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Like what could
possibly go wrong.

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And now having done this for
over three decades and across

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nine companies across lots of
different staffs, yeah, I'm well

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aware what can go wrong Now?

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A lot of stuff can go wrong.

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And what's crazy is it
goes wrong with what I

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would call across the board
wonderfully good intentions.

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Wonderfully good
intentions, right?

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A hundred percent.

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Like not, oh, like, you
know, we're, we're, we're

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trying to make people
our friends or whatever.

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It was like, I genuinely
care about you.

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I care about your welfare.

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I wanna see you do well.

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Right?

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Like, everything you
would actually want out of

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a friend, and these are
the people you spend

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your waking hours with.

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Like, most of my, all,
all of my day that I

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spent with other people.

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Was spent with
those other people.

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When I hear startups
say, we're a family

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here, you know, together.

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And all I think to myself is,
that's gonna end so poorly.

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Yeah.

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Oh my God.

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I've got a great
anecdote for this one.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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At some point I made a post
along these lines, which

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is the like, and, and I, I
used, somebody else probably

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dropped this before I did,
but I had been using the, the,

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the metaphor of, or the, the
analogy of like, it's more

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like a professional sports
team than, than than a family.

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Right.

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And somebody came
in and started.

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Heavy trolling, this
LinkedIn post heavy

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trolling, this LinkedIn post.

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And so I was like,
I'm just gonna go over

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and see who this is.

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Some management consultant guy.

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Right?

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I don't remember who
he was at this point.

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Some management consultant guy.

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I looked through a couple
of his, a, a couple of his

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posts and I, I get to like
the third or fourth one.

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You can't make this shit up.

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I get to the third
or fourth post.

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And what does it say?

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There's only one thing
worse than working.

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There's, there's one
mistake you can make worse

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than working with friends.

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And I was like.

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Okay, go on.

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That was the hook,
the punchline.

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Working with family.

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This is the guy who was telling
me I was wrong for saying that

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a company shouldn't be like
a family is literally saying

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the only thing worse you can
do is work with actual family.

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It's like, okay, so you don't
wanna work with actual family?

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Well, he wasn't

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wrong about that part though.

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Turn your

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employees into family.

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Like, yeah, come

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on.

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I, I think there's a ton
of genuine danger here.

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And again, I think as
founders, all of us, we go

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into this idea that I want
to be friends with everybody.

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I want this to be a family.

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I want this to be tight.

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I want all these things.

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And I, and I genuinely believe
that has great intention.

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What I also believe and
certainly have seen is that

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that also has the ability in
more cases than not to backfire

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so badly.

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Big time, man.

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Big time.

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If your org chart could easily
replace your Thanksgiving, uh,

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seating plan, good luck to you.

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When it comes time to trim
headcount, when people have to

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be replaced, when, when people
need to be reprimanded, when

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whatever ends up happening,
man, if it truly does feel

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like that level of family.

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It puts up all kinds
of blockers and false

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expectations on both sides.

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There's so many things
that, that we talk about

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in this podcast that we say
only work in good times.

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Ryan, if you can think this far
back, one of the first episodes

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we did was about whether the
founders should be transparent.

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Like be transparent about
everything in the organization.

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Yep.

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And I remember I said back
then, I said, that only works

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when things are going well.

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Yep.

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When things are going crazy.

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Transparency sounds awesome.

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Right.

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You know, here's how much
money we're making, how fast

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we're doing over, around.

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Yeah.

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We off to be

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acquired.

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Oh, high fives Be transparent.

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Tell me more.

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Yep.

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Let's money build in
public money for payroll.

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Shut up.

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Turns around really quick.

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Yeah, this is, stop talking.

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This falls in the category of
when it's good, it's great, and

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when it's not, it's terrible.

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Let's unpack this a little bit.

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You know, let's kind of break
down like where it, where it

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falls off, you know, goes off
the rails, why, and kind of

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what we should do about it.

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Right?

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Kind of how we
should approach it.

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Yeah.

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'cause I think the, I think the
startup family myth is like.

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It's super seductive, right?

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It's, it sounds great.

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It does sound great.

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And, and I think it's one of
those things where we might

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even enter into it with slightly
different thoughts and then

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I think as you realize, what,
how is you always put it

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running naked into the abyss.

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Yeah.

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And you're running
naked into the abyss.

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You're like, it'd be
nice to have some friends

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and family around to, to
help me out through this.

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Right.

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And so then I think even if you
started off with the intention

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of like, no, no, I'm gonna
run this very professionally.

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All of a sudden those lines get
really blurred because mm-hmm.

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You have an emotional or
psychological need for that.

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Let's talk about how the,
where that comes from.

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Okay.

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And, and you've talked
about it in a number of

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ways, but I, I think the
startup experience breeds it.

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Okay.

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So the first thing
you deal with the.

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Is, uh, shared risk,
shared terror, right?

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So it's like, Hey, we're
all in this together.

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We're all putting our hearts in.

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We've all risked
significantly to be here.

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So we have that commonality.

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Yes, it's soldiers in a foxhole.

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We're all fighting the
same battle together

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at the same time.

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Yep.

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Which breeds incredible,
uh, trust bonds,

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communication, et cetera.

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And all those are wonderful.

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All those are wonderful.

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However.

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Where it starts to break is
often that bond that has to do

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with being in a foxhole together
gets mistaken for a different

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level of friendship, or, yes,
the concept of friendship

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gets mistaken for work.

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Right?

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Right.

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And so you and that person are
fighting side, side by side,

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and it feels like, oh my God,
we're so tight, we're so close.

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This is, you know, my brother,
my sister, you know the family.

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Right?

256
00:08:08,175 --> 00:08:10,900
And then things go sideways
and you're like, huh.

257
00:08:11,895 --> 00:08:14,835
All of a sudden that metaphor of
family doesn't hold up at all.

258
00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:15,585
It doesn't.

259
00:08:15,945 --> 00:08:19,005
And I think the challenge
there is that we misinterpret

260
00:08:19,005 --> 00:08:22,815
shared context as shared
perspective, right?

261
00:08:22,815 --> 00:08:23,115
Yeah.

262
00:08:23,205 --> 00:08:23,685
Or friendship.

263
00:08:23,685 --> 00:08:26,085
You can go through the
same context and have very

264
00:08:26,085 --> 00:08:27,315
different perspectives on.

265
00:08:27,315 --> 00:08:30,789
I think that we start to
superimpose our perspective on

266
00:08:30,914 --> 00:08:33,015
the folks around us sometimes,
and that can be really tough.

267
00:08:33,015 --> 00:08:35,414
But again, where
does that come from?

268
00:08:35,475 --> 00:08:37,455
It comes from the fact that
we, we've talked about this

269
00:08:37,574 --> 00:08:40,905
podcast probably 20 other
times in different ways, but.

270
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,620
When we need somebody
to talk to, who else

271
00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:44,280
are you gonna talk to?

272
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,800
Your friends and family do not,
this person has perfect context.

273
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,090
They don't have any
understanding of what

274
00:08:48,090 --> 00:08:48,540
you're going through.

275
00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:51,690
So at least with the team,
there's the shared context.

276
00:08:51,690 --> 00:08:53,760
They see, they understand
some of the struggles, maybe

277
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:54,720
at the same level you do.

278
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:55,050
Mm-hmm.

279
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,900
But they have more shared
context than anyone else does.

280
00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:01,440
But that does not mean they have
the same shared perspective.

281
00:09:01,445 --> 00:09:01,475
Right?

282
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:01,650
Right.

283
00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:03,750
You're looking at it
down from the top.

284
00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:07,380
They are not, they're some
version of looking up to you

285
00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:11,010
or at you, and that's gonna be
very, very different for them.

286
00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:15,060
There's also not a lot of
relationships or situations.

287
00:09:15,060 --> 00:09:16,920
I think this is important
for the, for the construct

288
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:17,730
of, of friendship.

289
00:09:18,060 --> 00:09:19,920
There are not a lot of,
a lot of other situations

290
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,080
where you become friends
with someone where there

291
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,180
could be a very specific.

292
00:09:24,555 --> 00:09:27,735
Externality that forces
you apart, right?

293
00:09:28,095 --> 00:09:29,805
Ergo we lose a
funding round, right?

294
00:09:29,805 --> 00:09:31,820
Her name was April,
but yeah, it was April.

295
00:09:31,905 --> 00:09:32,415
Screw her.

296
00:09:32,685 --> 00:09:35,175
No, but like, one of the
interesting things about

297
00:09:35,175 --> 00:09:37,635
a startup and, and we did,
uh, again, one of our first

298
00:09:37,635 --> 00:09:39,915
episodes, we did an episode
around what we call, uh,

299
00:09:39,915 --> 00:09:43,064
startup shedding its skin,
that as a startup grows and

300
00:09:43,064 --> 00:09:45,675
evolves, the people within
the startup, sometimes the

301
00:09:45,675 --> 00:09:47,980
founders inclusive, don't
always grow at the same rate.

302
00:09:48,944 --> 00:09:49,214
Right.

303
00:09:49,214 --> 00:09:52,485
And so when you're first
starting, and the guy who

304
00:09:52,485 --> 00:09:55,035
came in as the CFO was the
only person that took an

305
00:09:55,035 --> 00:09:56,295
accounting course in college.

306
00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:56,490
Right?

307
00:09:56,495 --> 00:09:56,655
Right.

308
00:09:56,655 --> 00:09:57,855
So that, that was
his credentials.

309
00:09:57,885 --> 00:09:57,975
Yep.

310
00:09:58,334 --> 00:09:59,535
As the thing grows.

311
00:09:59,535 --> 00:10:02,714
And you need real finance
from a real CFO, that guy's

312
00:10:02,714 --> 00:10:03,645
out of a job all of a sudden.

313
00:10:03,915 --> 00:10:03,975
Yeah.

314
00:10:03,975 --> 00:10:06,464
And you feel shitty because
you're like, oh man, he was

315
00:10:06,464 --> 00:10:07,635
in it from the beginning.

316
00:10:07,635 --> 00:10:08,775
He worked so hard.

317
00:10:08,775 --> 00:10:10,755
You know, thi this is
somebody I care so much about.

318
00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:14,535
And it's like, yes, but
the circumstance yes.

319
00:10:14,540 --> 00:10:15,660
Has driven a wedge.

320
00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:17,939
The circumstance has
kind of pried that apart.

321
00:10:18,420 --> 00:10:21,510
And the problem in startups
is that circumstance

322
00:10:21,510 --> 00:10:22,350
is almost a given.

323
00:10:22,355 --> 00:10:22,694
Right.

324
00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:23,280
Right.

325
00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:24,990
That stuff's gonna
happen at some point.

326
00:10:24,990 --> 00:10:25,050
Yeah.

327
00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:25,980
We've talked to this before.

328
00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:27,360
People grow at different rates.

329
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,400
Startups grow at different
rates, but like when the,

330
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,819
the startup outgrows one
or more of the members, but

331
00:10:32,819 --> 00:10:33,960
not the others necessarily.

332
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:34,110
Right.

333
00:10:34,110 --> 00:10:37,050
If, if the CEO and the COO
and the CMO have all moved

334
00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:40,170
along and, and the CFO is
somehow lagging behind.

335
00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:43,050
That gets really tough, right?

336
00:10:43,050 --> 00:10:43,860
It gets really,

337
00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:44,460
really hard.

338
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,820
One of the first times I started
a company and my co-founder

339
00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:50,760
was a good friend of mine,
when the company started to do

340
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,000
poorly, like we did a fairly
good job, I think, of like

341
00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:55,770
maintaining our friendship.

342
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,860
But in the end, if I look back,
this is like 20 years ago,

343
00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:01,800
but like when I look back, it
did end our, our friendship.

344
00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:05,040
Like we still talk to this
day, but we're not friends

345
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,650
the way we used to be and
kind of what brought us there.

346
00:11:07,830 --> 00:11:08,910
And I think about it a lot.

347
00:11:08,910 --> 00:11:09,900
I think about like.

348
00:11:10,455 --> 00:11:11,955
What could we have
done differently?

349
00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:12,495
Okay.

350
00:11:12,495 --> 00:11:12,645
Right.

351
00:11:12,975 --> 00:11:14,265
And the answer is not much.

352
00:11:14,745 --> 00:11:18,045
Because essentially, again, this
externality of the startup drove

353
00:11:18,045 --> 00:11:21,945
a wedge in our friendship that
had a real cost to each of us.

354
00:11:22,245 --> 00:11:22,995
He was a great guy.

355
00:11:22,995 --> 00:11:24,015
He did nothing wrong, right?

356
00:11:24,015 --> 00:11:26,175
Like, you know, uh, and nor
did I, like, not neither

357
00:11:26,175 --> 00:11:26,895
of us did anything wrong.

358
00:11:27,285 --> 00:11:28,515
It just didn't work out.

359
00:11:28,995 --> 00:11:32,475
But at the time, it created
enough of a wedge, enough like

360
00:11:32,475 --> 00:11:35,265
hardship between us that it
kind of busted our friendship.

361
00:11:35,655 --> 00:11:37,125
And that's at a
co-founder level.

362
00:11:37,125 --> 00:11:38,985
Like somebody that you're kind
of supposed to be tethered to.

363
00:11:39,705 --> 00:11:42,195
If we take it back a step when
we, you know, start looking

364
00:11:42,195 --> 00:11:45,105
at all the employees in the
company, that's even more

365
00:11:45,105 --> 00:11:47,925
significant because with that,
where we've got all these

366
00:11:47,925 --> 00:11:49,340
employees, they come and go.

367
00:11:50,355 --> 00:11:50,415
Yeah.

368
00:11:50,415 --> 00:11:51,765
I mean, they're like, Hey
dude, I got a better job.

369
00:11:51,765 --> 00:11:52,185
Peace out.

370
00:11:52,185 --> 00:11:52,365
Right?

371
00:11:52,365 --> 00:11:52,635
Yep.

372
00:11:52,875 --> 00:11:54,645
And you're like, oh, I
thought we were friends.

373
00:11:54,645 --> 00:11:57,795
And it doesn't occur to
you that you are friends

374
00:11:58,065 --> 00:11:58,905
and this is a job.

375
00:11:58,905 --> 00:11:58,965
Yeah.

376
00:11:59,355 --> 00:11:59,740
This is a job.

377
00:11:59,835 --> 00:12:00,585
And that's another job.

378
00:12:01,245 --> 00:12:01,485
Yeah.

379
00:12:01,875 --> 00:12:02,055
Yeah.

380
00:12:02,055 --> 00:12:03,555
It's funny because we
can, we can clearly

381
00:12:03,555 --> 00:12:04,215
separate that, right?

382
00:12:04,215 --> 00:12:06,555
Like if your friend
works for pwc.

383
00:12:06,585 --> 00:12:06,825
Yeah.

384
00:12:06,825 --> 00:12:09,435
And then he, he moves over
and decides to work for.

385
00:12:09,650 --> 00:12:11,810
Someone else, like you don't
stop your friendship with

386
00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:13,880
that person because they
no longer work for pwc.

387
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,840
Like who cares?

388
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:15,110
Right.

389
00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:15,530
Right.

390
00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:17,600
Because that's not what your
friendship was predicated on.

391
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,610
When your friendship is
predicated on the fact that

392
00:12:20,060 --> 00:12:22,670
there was the employment and
that somehow it co-mingled and

393
00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:25,130
that becomes a, a much more
difficult thing to navigate.

394
00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:25,880
Said differently.

395
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,850
The idea of building a
friendship solely based on a.

396
00:12:29,595 --> 00:12:32,175
Startup, whatever it lives
by it and dies by it.

397
00:12:32,265 --> 00:12:34,530
Like it works as well
as the company now.

398
00:12:34,575 --> 00:12:36,675
Now there's another way
I've seen that relationship

399
00:12:36,675 --> 00:12:39,465
strain, which wasn't,
hey, we ran of money.

400
00:12:39,945 --> 00:12:42,405
The other way I've seen it
strain is, like we said a

401
00:12:42,405 --> 00:12:44,685
moment ago, where the startup
just keeps growing, right?

402
00:12:44,685 --> 00:12:46,575
And that person simply
doesn't grow with it.

403
00:12:46,819 --> 00:12:50,540
When we were growing the agency,
we grew so fast and a lot of

404
00:12:50,540 --> 00:12:53,270
the people that were there
from the start felt entitled.

405
00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:54,439
And usually that's
a negative word.

406
00:12:54,439 --> 00:12:55,910
It's the one time where
I'm not gonna use it.

407
00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:57,860
Uh, negatively felt entitled.

408
00:12:57,860 --> 00:12:59,840
Like I thought this
was like how we grow.

409
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,100
I thought I was doing what
I was supposed to be doing.

410
00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:02,360
Yes, they wanted to work hard.

411
00:13:02,390 --> 00:13:03,140
This wasn't a right.

412
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:05,210
Um, I'm not gonna work hard
and I deserve it anyway.

413
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,569
This was a, I literally
thought this was how I advance.

414
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:09,250
Right.

415
00:13:09,310 --> 00:13:12,280
Like by this thing growing,
I helped make it grow.

416
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:13,090
It's bigger.

417
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:15,430
Why aren't I still at the
top of that org chart, Uhhuh?

418
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,380
And it wasn't their fault.

419
00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:19,390
Just we got to a point
where the person that needed

420
00:13:19,390 --> 00:13:22,660
that role needed to have
significantly more experience.

421
00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:23,500
Different experience.

422
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:23,650
Yeah.

423
00:13:23,860 --> 00:13:24,280
Yeah.

424
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:24,790
And it happens.

425
00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:26,770
And so those relationships.

426
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,420
Got beat up because they
looked at it as like,

427
00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:31,890
Hey, you passed over me.

428
00:13:31,890 --> 00:13:32,640
You know, et cetera.

429
00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:34,200
And it's like, damn.

430
00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:38,400
That's in my mind, the best case
scenario, best case scenario.

431
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,350
We're growing like crazy and
there's more opportunity.

432
00:13:40,890 --> 00:13:42,180
It never occurred to me.

433
00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:43,710
That you wouldn't get it.

434
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,060
So that could strain as well.

435
00:13:45,329 --> 00:13:45,689
Yeah.

436
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:47,850
Again, I think it goes back
to that like you're, you're

437
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:49,770
using the shared context
and assuming that there's

438
00:13:49,770 --> 00:13:50,819
shared perspective there.

439
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:52,079
It's hard to do.

440
00:13:52,170 --> 00:13:55,740
To be fair, the founder kind
of gets a bit of a, a pass on

441
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:57,960
some of this because they're
the founder, they're kind

442
00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,771
of baked into that role.

443
00:13:59,805 --> 00:14:03,495
However, however, they
also have all eyes on me.

444
00:14:03,495 --> 00:14:03,555
Yeah.

445
00:14:03,974 --> 00:14:07,365
So like, if you're head
of customer support and

446
00:14:07,365 --> 00:14:09,704
you're a little bit over
employed, so to speak, right?

447
00:14:09,704 --> 00:14:11,895
You know, uh, uh, you're,
you're, uh, this job's a little

448
00:14:11,895 --> 00:14:12,944
beyond what you should be doing.

449
00:14:13,214 --> 00:14:15,734
You might get some shit
if you're the CEO or the

450
00:14:15,734 --> 00:14:17,865
founder or whatever, and
you're over employed, you

451
00:14:17,865 --> 00:14:18,765
don't know what you're doing.

452
00:14:19,005 --> 00:14:21,314
A hundred percent of the
people in the organization

453
00:14:21,314 --> 00:14:22,425
are hyper aware of that.

454
00:14:22,425 --> 00:14:24,435
As our investors, as
our customers, the

455
00:14:24,435 --> 00:14:25,574
media, what have you.

456
00:14:25,635 --> 00:14:27,615
It's harder to duck
that kind of scrutiny.

457
00:14:27,655 --> 00:14:28,285
Sure, sure.

458
00:14:28,645 --> 00:14:32,574
Regardless, we're all gonna face
it in good times and bad times.

459
00:14:32,605 --> 00:14:33,925
There's going to be friction.

460
00:14:33,925 --> 00:14:37,975
There's going to be a driving
wedge in the early formative

461
00:14:37,975 --> 00:14:40,045
years when we're building the
company and everybody's coming

462
00:14:40,045 --> 00:14:40,795
together for the first time.

463
00:14:40,795 --> 00:14:40,975
Right.

464
00:14:41,155 --> 00:14:42,535
It just hasn't happened yet.

465
00:14:42,834 --> 00:14:44,665
It's like a married couple
that hasn't had a kid yet.

466
00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:46,740
They have the kid, they're
like, oh my God, it's

467
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:47,550
gonna be so much better.

468
00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:49,350
Like, ah, not necessarily.

469
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:49,860
It's gonna be

470
00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:50,460
different.

471
00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:51,120
Yeah, yeah.

472
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:51,540
Be better.

473
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:53,100
You have actually harder,
you know what I mean?

474
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:54,120
Yeah, for sure.

475
00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:56,400
And so I, I think that these
are the kind of things that are

476
00:14:56,460 --> 00:15:00,690
super hard to spot because in
the beginning, none of those

477
00:15:00,690 --> 00:15:02,160
consequences exist, right?

478
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,420
None of the consequences there.

479
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:04,770
It's all upside.

480
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,440
Like absolutely on those
early days, it's all upside.

481
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,510
Being friends and turning
your coworkers into a

482
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:11,880
family, it's all upside.

483
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,920
The upside is a
bit limited though.

484
00:15:14,295 --> 00:15:16,845
Right, because there's a
level at which it doesn't

485
00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:19,155
continue to propel anything
within the company.

486
00:15:19,155 --> 00:15:21,105
It's not like, I don't remember
hearing too many stories.

487
00:15:21,105 --> 00:15:21,945
I'm sure there's some out there.

488
00:15:21,945 --> 00:15:23,895
Somebody will, will reference
one formula to prove me

489
00:15:23,895 --> 00:15:24,645
wrong, and that's fine.

490
00:15:24,645 --> 00:15:26,895
We'll call the exception
that proves the rule where,

491
00:15:26,895 --> 00:15:29,475
because of the fact that
we treated it like a family

492
00:15:29,475 --> 00:15:32,115
or because of the fact that
we, we were, we were friends

493
00:15:32,115 --> 00:15:33,195
that that was what drove it.

494
00:15:33,195 --> 00:15:34,545
Now, I'm not gonna say
there were never businesses

495
00:15:34,545 --> 00:15:35,295
that didn't have this.

496
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:38,990
Show me objective proof that
says, because this, right?

497
00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:41,330
And there was something that I
wouldn't have otherwise done,

498
00:15:41,330 --> 00:15:43,820
but because I considered you a
friend, I did this and this led

499
00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:44,750
to the success of the company.

500
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:46,430
I can't name a one, right?

501
00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:47,300
I can't name a single one.

502
00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:47,870
Right?

503
00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:50,660
And so again, there's a peak,
there's a limit to what the

504
00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:52,910
benefit of doing this is,
but it feels so good in the

505
00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:54,380
beginning that you'll do it.

506
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:56,990
And then there's just a super
diminishing return and there's

507
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:58,910
a bunch of really, really.

508
00:15:59,295 --> 00:16:02,385
Heavy taxes that can come
out this when it goes south.

509
00:16:02,625 --> 00:16:02,985
Right.

510
00:16:02,985 --> 00:16:06,285
Well, and again, I'm gonna say
those taxes are inevitable.

511
00:16:06,345 --> 00:16:06,615
Right?

512
00:16:06,615 --> 00:16:07,456
It just in the Yep.

513
00:16:07,456 --> 00:16:09,045
In the early days you don't
see them Again, I, I'm gonna,

514
00:16:09,105 --> 00:16:11,715
I'll put it like marriage, but
I think there's a side of this

515
00:16:11,715 --> 00:16:16,095
that we should also explore,
which is, it's not just that

516
00:16:16,155 --> 00:16:17,925
this thing could backfire on us.

517
00:16:18,255 --> 00:16:18,555
Yeah.

518
00:16:18,555 --> 00:16:21,135
It's that I don't know
that the employees

519
00:16:21,135 --> 00:16:22,125
signed up for it either.

520
00:16:22,605 --> 00:16:24,705
No, I, I think that's
the implications, right?

521
00:16:24,705 --> 00:16:26,145
Like, I'm gonna make
us all a family.

522
00:16:26,145 --> 00:16:27,675
They're like, I have a family.

523
00:16:27,735 --> 00:16:28,905
I'm not even that fond of them.

524
00:16:28,905 --> 00:16:29,865
I don't want another one.

525
00:16:29,895 --> 00:16:30,105
Right?

526
00:16:30,585 --> 00:16:30,825
Okay.

527
00:16:30,825 --> 00:16:31,065
So,

528
00:16:31,065 --> 00:16:33,885
so lemme tell you how I've
seen this evolve pretty,

529
00:16:33,945 --> 00:16:35,685
pretty consistently, and
I think the folks in the

530
00:16:35,685 --> 00:16:37,965
audience will probably be,
be able to align with this.

531
00:16:38,115 --> 00:16:41,175
The first core group of
people that we bring in.

532
00:16:41,505 --> 00:16:43,065
The numbers are relevant,
but let's say it's the

533
00:16:43,065 --> 00:16:44,565
first five or 10 people Yep.

534
00:16:44,745 --> 00:16:46,875
Spend an inordinate
amount of time together.

535
00:16:47,094 --> 00:16:47,334
Right.

536
00:16:47,334 --> 00:16:47,425
Yes.

537
00:16:47,425 --> 00:16:51,025
At a very specific formative
stage of the company where

538
00:16:51,025 --> 00:16:52,795
they're all like making the
baby together, so to speak.

539
00:16:52,795 --> 00:16:53,875
Formative decisions.

540
00:16:53,875 --> 00:16:54,865
Seminal work.

541
00:16:54,895 --> 00:16:55,255
Yep.

542
00:16:55,405 --> 00:16:56,694
Everyone's contributing.

543
00:16:56,694 --> 00:16:59,574
Like the funny joke
everyone gets, because

544
00:16:59,574 --> 00:17:01,885
you can say it in a way
that's literally contextual

545
00:17:01,885 --> 00:17:02,964
to every single person.

546
00:17:02,964 --> 00:17:03,025
Yeah.

547
00:17:03,265 --> 00:17:06,355
And everyone has that, that
shared perspective, et cetera.

548
00:17:06,714 --> 00:17:10,135
Now, person, I'm just
making this up, 50 shows up.

549
00:17:10,464 --> 00:17:10,915
Okay.

550
00:17:11,125 --> 00:17:11,185
Yeah.

551
00:17:11,185 --> 00:17:13,734
And they don't give a
shit about any of that.

552
00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:14,295
Right, right.

553
00:17:14,295 --> 00:17:15,765
They don't care about
your inside jokes.

554
00:17:15,945 --> 00:17:17,685
They don't care about,
like, the fact that you

555
00:17:17,685 --> 00:17:18,615
wanna go out for beers.

556
00:17:18,615 --> 00:17:20,685
They don't, they don't
care about any of that.

557
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:22,155
They took this job,
I just did this last

558
00:17:22,155 --> 00:17:22,545
week.

559
00:17:22,695 --> 00:17:22,995
What's that?

560
00:17:22,995 --> 00:17:23,685
I just did this last week.

561
00:17:23,685 --> 00:17:24,015
Do you remember?

562
00:17:24,015 --> 00:17:27,855
I referenced an inside joke
that I think you, me, and

563
00:17:27,855 --> 00:17:30,795
one other person got, and
it didn't occur to me until,

564
00:17:30,795 --> 00:17:34,125
no one reacted that no one
else had that shared context.

565
00:17:34,125 --> 00:17:37,035
I had just forgotten
how far back that was.

566
00:17:37,675 --> 00:17:39,775
How much the
organization has changed.

567
00:17:40,105 --> 00:17:41,095
You know, something that's

568
00:17:41,095 --> 00:17:44,515
really funny about everything
we talk about here is

569
00:17:44,515 --> 00:17:46,255
that none of it is new.

570
00:17:46,525 --> 00:17:49,075
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

571
00:17:49,075 --> 00:17:52,915
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

572
00:17:52,915 --> 00:17:53,936
You may just not know it.

573
00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:54,790
But that's okay.

574
00:17:55,150 --> 00:17:56,980
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

575
00:17:57,010 --> 00:17:59,620
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

576
00:17:59,620 --> 00:18:03,640
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

577
00:18:03,850 --> 00:18:07,120
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

578
00:18:07,150 --> 00:18:10,180
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the

579
00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:11,500
test and be done with it.

580
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:12,340
Okay?

581
00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:15,070
So Ryan, I've got a
great throwback for you.

582
00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:18,180
Early in the days of this
company, you'll remember

583
00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:18,870
who this person is.

584
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:21,210
Of course, I'm not gonna say
who they're, but we were a

585
00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:23,640
very freewheeling family.

586
00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:24,060
Right.

587
00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:26,430
Everyone was super tight,
if I'm being honest.

588
00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:28,200
It was almost all
dudes at the time.

589
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:28,710
Right.

590
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:30,870
So had a very kind
of frat feel to it.

591
00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:34,050
And we hired a, a, a, a
woman outta college, maybe

592
00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:35,430
a year or so out of college.

593
00:18:36,195 --> 00:18:37,185
Pretty straight laced.

594
00:18:37,185 --> 00:18:38,055
Pretty buttoned up.

595
00:18:38,775 --> 00:18:42,405
Definitely not aligned with
how this company was running

596
00:18:42,825 --> 00:18:43,035
it.

597
00:18:43,035 --> 00:18:45,345
She was not in the
bro adjacent space.

598
00:18:45,345 --> 00:18:46,090
She was not

599
00:18:46,290 --> 00:18:49,965
in the pro adjacent space at
all, and this is my fault.

600
00:18:50,175 --> 00:18:51,765
Did not occur to me.

601
00:18:52,365 --> 00:18:53,115
That was a problem.

602
00:18:53,355 --> 00:18:56,205
And it wasn't a matter of
being insensitive, it just, I

603
00:18:56,205 --> 00:18:58,155
didn't understand the delta.

604
00:18:58,335 --> 00:18:58,575
Right.

605
00:18:58,575 --> 00:19:00,045
Because up until that
point, we didn't have one.

606
00:19:00,375 --> 00:19:01,185
Everyone was on team.

607
00:19:01,185 --> 00:19:01,515
Bro.

608
00:19:01,545 --> 00:19:03,255
I know that that has
such a horrible, uh,

609
00:19:03,255 --> 00:19:04,005
connotation right now.

610
00:19:04,005 --> 00:19:04,545
It wasn't.

611
00:19:04,785 --> 00:19:05,895
Maybe it was that
bad, but I don't know.

612
00:19:05,955 --> 00:19:09,225
Uh, point is everyone was
so happy to be there, right?

613
00:19:09,315 --> 00:19:12,045
It didn't occur to me
that someone could show

614
00:19:12,045 --> 00:19:13,005
up in this environment.

615
00:19:13,665 --> 00:19:14,355
Not enjoy it.

616
00:19:14,385 --> 00:19:15,165
Not enjoy it.

617
00:19:15,554 --> 00:19:16,905
She showed up in
this environment.

618
00:19:16,965 --> 00:19:18,345
She did not enjoy it.

619
00:19:18,345 --> 00:19:18,764
She did not enjoy it.

620
00:19:18,764 --> 00:19:19,004
Right?

621
00:19:19,064 --> 00:19:19,245
Yeah.

622
00:19:19,304 --> 00:19:21,645
Now, to her credit, I even
said this to her, you know,

623
00:19:21,675 --> 00:19:25,274
years later, in her last day,
I said, you fundamentally

624
00:19:25,274 --> 00:19:27,735
not only changed the cultural
course of this company, yes,

625
00:19:27,735 --> 00:19:29,745
some for the better, some
for the worse, but you also

626
00:19:29,745 --> 00:19:32,024
helped me understand it, like,
help me understand the delta.

627
00:19:32,385 --> 00:19:32,955
So she said to her

628
00:19:32,955 --> 00:19:34,155
credit in all of our benefit,

629
00:19:34,304 --> 00:19:34,635
right?

630
00:19:35,024 --> 00:19:35,445
Yes.

631
00:19:35,534 --> 00:19:38,115
She, she sits me down,
I can tell, like this

632
00:19:38,115 --> 00:19:39,195
is welling up in her.

633
00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:39,735
Okay.

634
00:19:40,155 --> 00:19:44,145
And she's like, will, I
don't feel like the culture

635
00:19:44,145 --> 00:19:46,754
here is as professional
as it's supposed to be.

636
00:19:46,995 --> 00:19:48,855
And I'm like, high fives right?

637
00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:51,794
And she's like,
no, not high fives.

638
00:19:52,425 --> 00:19:53,175
Fist bumps.

639
00:19:53,834 --> 00:19:54,584
Exactly.

640
00:19:54,939 --> 00:19:55,530
Chest bump.

641
00:19:55,530 --> 00:19:55,850
Right.

642
00:19:56,030 --> 00:19:58,455
And, and again, Ryan, you
and I are two the most

643
00:19:58,455 --> 00:19:59,594
empathetic people I know.

644
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,880
Like, and so before you
hear this and say, oh my

645
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,440
God, those guys are a bunch
of douche bags, you'll

646
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:05,550
probably write about that.

647
00:20:05,550 --> 00:20:08,550
But please understand
that like we also listen

648
00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:11,850
incredibly closely and so
she sits down and doesn't

649
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:12,990
mean we're not
ignorant sometimes.

650
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,190
Yeah, exactly.

651
00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:15,060
Look, we all make mistakes.

652
00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:18,720
And so she sits down and she's
like, look, we've got rap music

653
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,300
playing all day throughout
the the office, right?

654
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:21,540
Like.

655
00:20:21,945 --> 00:20:23,534
It's fairly appropriate, right?

656
00:20:23,534 --> 00:20:24,465
Yeah, exactly right.

657
00:20:24,465 --> 00:20:26,355
I I was like to, to take
that off the website.

658
00:20:26,715 --> 00:20:28,875
Is it making it hard for you
to hear the NBA jam machine?

659
00:20:28,875 --> 00:20:30,735
Yeah, because we can, we
could, we could turn that off.

660
00:20:31,125 --> 00:20:32,655
She was like, she was like,
people are playing video games

661
00:20:32,655 --> 00:20:35,325
in the, uh, middle of the day,
which is very distracting.

662
00:20:35,564 --> 00:20:37,689
She said that people talk
about their personal lives

663
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,210
with no boundaries whatsoever.

664
00:20:39,915 --> 00:20:42,375
And at the time I'm
like, okay, fun, please.

665
00:20:42,375 --> 00:20:42,795
Thanks.

666
00:20:42,795 --> 00:20:43,155
Right.

667
00:20:43,665 --> 00:20:46,395
But I realized, and again
this is, this is to her

668
00:20:46,395 --> 00:20:49,935
credit, she made me realize
that because we were on

669
00:20:49,935 --> 00:20:53,295
board didn't automatically
make everyone else on board.

670
00:20:53,325 --> 00:20:53,775
Correct.

671
00:20:54,255 --> 00:20:56,415
And I was like,
damn, that's heavy.

672
00:20:56,715 --> 00:20:56,985
Yeah.

673
00:20:57,135 --> 00:20:58,965
It's back to that same,
it's that shared context.

674
00:20:58,965 --> 00:21:02,385
We were all in that
same video game.

675
00:21:03,015 --> 00:21:07,725
Testosterone driven rap
background, music environments.

676
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:09,930
But the perspectives
were, were different,

677
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:10,320
right?

678
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,389
At least one or two of them
were, and she was, I mean,

679
00:21:12,389 --> 00:21:14,610
obviously she wasn't wrong
and, and I remember coming

680
00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:17,310
home and talking to my, my
wife about it, and I'm like,

681
00:21:17,670 --> 00:21:21,540
it's killing me because she
basically fired a bullet

682
00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:24,570
in everything that I enjoy
about this company and it's

683
00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:25,740
killing me that she's right.

684
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:28,649
And my wife was like, you
had to know this was coming.

685
00:21:28,889 --> 00:21:30,780
And I said, what kills me is
I didn't know it was coming.

686
00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:31,290
Yeah.

687
00:21:31,919 --> 00:21:32,610
Also, no.

688
00:21:32,879 --> 00:21:33,360
Yeah, no.

689
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,110
And, and, and again, not because
I, and we changed, we modified

690
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:38,460
the culture because of that.

691
00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:39,990
We got a snowboarding game in

692
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:40,740
the basement instead.

693
00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:42,764
It was way different.

694
00:21:43,595 --> 00:21:46,325
What I think is really
interesting about this is

695
00:21:46,655 --> 00:21:49,235
when we build this family
culture, when we had to decide

696
00:21:49,235 --> 00:21:52,565
we wanna be friends with
everybody, we easily overlook

697
00:21:52,745 --> 00:21:56,020
that because it's good for us
and we signed the contract.

698
00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:59,880
We're not allowed to just
sign everybody else up

699
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,550
too and be like, it's your
fault if you don't like it.

700
00:22:02,730 --> 00:22:03,420
It's exactly it.

701
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:06,300
I, I think that, you know, we,
we do understand consent in a

702
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,480
lot of ways, but I think that
consent also applies to culture.

703
00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:10,140
Right.

704
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:12,600
And I think that we, we just
have to be very careful about

705
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,620
presupposing, that everybody
wants emotional VIP access.

706
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:16,980
Right.

707
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:17,460
Right.

708
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,170
And it's their right
to not have it.

709
00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:22,410
It took me a long time not
to understand why it's not

710
00:22:22,410 --> 00:22:23,610
their right, the right part.

711
00:22:23,610 --> 00:22:26,251
I understood right away it was
that they wouldn't want it.

712
00:22:26,595 --> 00:22:27,705
Because I did, right?

713
00:22:27,705 --> 00:22:29,985
Like I wanted to share
how things were going in

714
00:22:29,985 --> 00:22:31,005
my life with everybody.

715
00:22:31,215 --> 00:22:33,135
I wanted to hear about how
things were going with everybody

716
00:22:33,135 --> 00:22:36,405
else and, and I think this
is a very big part of like,

717
00:22:36,735 --> 00:22:39,675
probably what makes us very
active advisors, Ryan and

718
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:42,795
parents, et cetera, is that
we wanna help when someone

719
00:22:42,795 --> 00:22:45,405
says, man, I had a really tough
situation, like personally

720
00:22:45,555 --> 00:22:47,410
our first thought, and this
is literally what we do here.

721
00:22:48,060 --> 00:22:48,750
Is to help.

722
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:48,990
My

723
00:22:48,990 --> 00:22:49,200
wife

724
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:49,860
gets on me all the time.

725
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:50,190
It's hard to be

726
00:22:50,190 --> 00:22:51,660
empathetic without
information, right?

727
00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:53,010
And so we seek that information.

728
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:53,280
I

729
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,780
like, my wife gets
on me all the time.

730
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:57,780
She's like, well, you
don't realize people have

731
00:22:57,780 --> 00:22:59,160
boundaries that you don't have.

732
00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,010
And even when you're well
intentioned, when you're trying

733
00:23:02,010 --> 00:23:06,450
to help, you're still crossing a
line that someone else may have.

734
00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:07,350
Right.

735
00:23:07,379 --> 00:23:07,620
Yeah.

736
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:08,790
Like we'll be at
dinner with a couple.

737
00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:09,360
We don't know that.

738
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,000
Well, and I'll, I'll hear one
people on the other side of

739
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,490
the table, like complain about
something and so I'll just start

740
00:23:14,490 --> 00:23:15,510
asking 'em questions about it.

741
00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:18,600
I think you're aware of
this, most people don't

742
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,690
ask like meaningful probing
questions, kind of like

743
00:23:21,690 --> 00:23:22,800
a psychiatrist would.

744
00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:23,550
Right.

745
00:23:23,550 --> 00:23:24,990
That was the only
questions I have.

746
00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:25,350
Right.

747
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:25,530
Yeah.

748
00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:27,210
I've been capable
of small talker.

749
00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:29,340
I don't care what the
weather was like that day.

750
00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:29,730
Yeah.

751
00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:30,960
Like tell me about
your relationship with

752
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,650
your, with your dad.

753
00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:32,220
Why you crying?

754
00:23:32,225 --> 00:23:32,395
Yeah.

755
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,270
Yeah, exactly right.

756
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:36,480
And Sarah's like, look, they
didn't sign up for that.

757
00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:39,150
Like, that's just because
that's your default.

758
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,590
It's not their default.

759
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,570
It makes certain people
very uncomfortable.

760
00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:43,590
I know you, you mean.

761
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:45,510
Well, but that's, it
is still not okay.

762
00:23:45,780 --> 00:23:46,020
Yeah.

763
00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:46,585
I blew my mind full.

764
00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:47,040
I get it now.

765
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:47,400
It, it's not even

766
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,600
just the questioning, right?

767
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,190
It's not even just the
questioning, because like, I

768
00:23:50,190 --> 00:23:53,670
think even just oversharing
can become invasive.

769
00:23:53,970 --> 00:23:55,860
You may be exposing 'em to
things that they don't wanna

770
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:58,620
know, but I think the, the,
the larger symptom that I've

771
00:23:58,620 --> 00:24:01,320
seen when, when I've become
guilty of this is that.

772
00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:03,990
People feel like they have to
reciprocate a hundred percent.

773
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:04,170
Yeah.

774
00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:04,410
Right.

775
00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:06,630
They feel like, ah, because
you're doing this, you're

776
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:07,620
trying to draw this outta of me.

777
00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:09,780
And maybe I probably was right.

778
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:11,970
But again, from a
well-intentioned place

779
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:13,230
of wanting to be able to
be empathetic and wanting

780
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:16,110
to understand, you know,
what your context is, but

781
00:24:16,770 --> 00:24:18,390
not everybody signed up
for that, like you said.

782
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:18,540
Right.

783
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:20,100
They, they're here,
I'm here to do my job.

784
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:21,630
I'm here to like
run social media.

785
00:24:21,870 --> 00:24:24,180
I didn't ask to join
your therapy hour.

786
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:24,990
Right.

787
00:24:24,990 --> 00:24:26,640
Either as doctor or patient.

788
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:26,850
Right.

789
00:24:26,850 --> 00:24:28,530
It's not, not why I'm here.

790
00:24:29,070 --> 00:24:31,020
Um, so I think for me
it's like at this point.

791
00:24:31,409 --> 00:24:33,720
I still do welcome those
interactions, and I

792
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,740
don't, I don't shun them.

793
00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:35,370
I don't push them away.

794
00:24:35,370 --> 00:24:36,419
I don't, I don't deny them.

795
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,810
But I think the, the thing
I'm trying to do at this point

796
00:24:39,810 --> 00:24:45,990
is to default to professional
distance and let the team invite

797
00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:48,419
deeper, more personal rapport.

798
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:48,960
Yeah.

799
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,480
And I, I gotta say, I hate it.

800
00:24:51,899 --> 00:24:52,379
I hate it.

801
00:24:52,379 --> 00:24:52,649
Yeah.

802
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,139
Um, I'm doing well, itm exactly
what you're doing and I hate it.

803
00:24:55,139 --> 00:24:56,189
It's because we're impatient.

804
00:24:56,639 --> 00:24:59,280
You wanna know it's,
it's because I literally

805
00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:59,615
wanna be helpful.

806
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,220
When I see somebody and it
looks like they're struggling

807
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:05,730
in some way, my first instinct,
even to strangers, I don't

808
00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:06,630
even know who they are.

809
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:06,930
Right.

810
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:08,790
My first instinct is
to try to be helpful.

811
00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:11,910
Uh, again, I'm the person
that when I see you, like

812
00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:13,950
you're got a flat tire on
the side of the road, I

813
00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:15,000
will pull over to help you.

814
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:15,690
Yes.

815
00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:15,780
Right?

816
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:17,335
Like that's my first instinct.

817
00:25:18,074 --> 00:25:20,655
It doesn't occur to me that
you wouldn't want my help.

818
00:25:21,014 --> 00:25:21,314
Right?

819
00:25:21,314 --> 00:25:23,175
And again, that that can be
annoying in its own right.

820
00:25:23,475 --> 00:25:26,385
But now if we institutionalize
that, if we make it so

821
00:25:26,385 --> 00:25:29,145
that like, Hey, you joined
this company, and I guess

822
00:25:29,145 --> 00:25:30,225
we're all gonna share
how our weekends went.

823
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:31,530
Yes.

824
00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:34,140
And you're at lunch or you
know, in a conference room

825
00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:36,900
or something and you're
like, I don't wanna tell you

826
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:37,800
guys what I did this week.

827
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,790
I know your goddamn business.

828
00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:39,120
Right.

829
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,010
The emperor's new
clothes come to mind.

830
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:43,530
Like, it's one thing when
the emperor's walking around

831
00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:46,260
with his new clothes on and
everybody has to suffer through

832
00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:47,520
seeing the the emperor nude.

833
00:25:47,875 --> 00:25:50,065
It's a very different thing
when the Emperor asks everyone

834
00:25:50,065 --> 00:25:52,015
else to don those clothes
too, or they feel like they

835
00:25:52,015 --> 00:25:54,235
have to, then it becomes a
very different situation.

836
00:25:54,325 --> 00:25:56,695
And I don't think we do it
intentionally or deliberately.

837
00:25:56,875 --> 00:25:58,705
No, I, I think it's
done by circumstance.

838
00:25:58,705 --> 00:26:01,375
I think, you know, we create
this culture where you and

839
00:26:01,375 --> 00:26:04,795
I in a meeting start talking
about how our weekends went

840
00:26:04,825 --> 00:26:08,635
or how things are going with
our kids, and then by proxy,

841
00:26:08,635 --> 00:26:10,915
everyone else in the meeting
assumes that they have to

842
00:26:10,915 --> 00:26:13,015
contribute at that level,
especially if we're there.

843
00:26:13,015 --> 00:26:13,016
Yeah.

844
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,270
Their boss, et cetera,
and that makes people

845
00:26:15,270 --> 00:26:16,679
freakishly un uncomfortable.

846
00:26:16,679 --> 00:26:16,740
Yeah.

847
00:26:17,070 --> 00:26:19,379
Now some people are like,
this is awesome, and they

848
00:26:19,379 --> 00:26:21,179
gush and they can't wait
to talk about what they

849
00:26:21,179 --> 00:26:22,050
were doing that weekend.

850
00:26:22,679 --> 00:26:25,560
Where it becomes a problem
is for that employee that I

851
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,960
mentioned from years ago that
was brave enough to stand up

852
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,560
and say, Hey, I'm not okay
with this, and, and have us go.

853
00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:35,470
Really, and not in a way where
she deserved that recognition,

854
00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:36,820
uh, and deserved the response.

855
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:40,450
What, what threw me off wasn't
that she asked, it's that it

856
00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:43,315
didn't occur to me that, that
she would, and you know, that

857
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,910
that certainly, you know,
left a mark in a good way.

858
00:26:46,210 --> 00:26:49,270
I also think that as we get
into this, if we look Ryan,

859
00:26:49,270 --> 00:26:53,500
if we look at both the side of
it, where we're overstepping,

860
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:55,870
abound, you know, like we're
sharing too much and the side

861
00:26:55,870 --> 00:26:59,140
of it where maybe our employees
don't want to, yeah, I think

862
00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:00,790
we need to step back and say.

863
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:06,689
I've gotta tread very carefully
on this notion of what these

864
00:27:06,689 --> 00:27:10,229
relationships are, or how deep
my relationships are gonna be

865
00:27:10,229 --> 00:27:16,199
with people, because one, if I
invest heavily again, that wedge

866
00:27:16,199 --> 00:27:17,939
that's gonna break this thing
is right around the corner.

867
00:27:18,344 --> 00:27:18,615
Right?

868
00:27:18,615 --> 00:27:18,675
Yeah.

869
00:27:18,675 --> 00:27:20,685
Just the nature of startups,
they're very fickle, right?

870
00:27:20,715 --> 00:27:23,175
Shit's gonna go wrong, and,
and things can go wrong

871
00:27:23,175 --> 00:27:24,135
in a positive way too.

872
00:27:24,165 --> 00:27:25,725
People think, oh, you know,
we're run outta money.

873
00:27:26,024 --> 00:27:28,304
Things can just scale very
quickly and that person

874
00:27:28,304 --> 00:27:30,495
doesn't, you know, make sense
for the job or just anything.

875
00:27:31,064 --> 00:27:33,405
Or there's another version
where that person, uh,

876
00:27:33,405 --> 00:27:35,235
has nothing to do with
what the company's doing.

877
00:27:35,534 --> 00:27:37,395
Just like maybe doesn't
get along with people

878
00:27:37,395 --> 00:27:39,824
anymore, or just like, is
maybe just a bad apple.

879
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:40,570
Yep.

880
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:42,340
They're your friend, but
nobody else likes them.

881
00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:42,490
You know?

882
00:27:42,490 --> 00:27:43,120
Nobody else.

883
00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:43,720
Yeah.

884
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:43,722
Yeah, yeah.

885
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:46,330
And then the other side, like
I said, is we're creating a

886
00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:51,730
culture that almost demands
this level of, uh, inclusiveness

887
00:27:51,730 --> 00:27:54,310
of like openness of et cetera.

888
00:27:54,580 --> 00:27:58,270
And while those words sound
great, they don't always apply,

889
00:27:59,050 --> 00:28:01,570
and especially not when,
when they become the

890
00:28:01,570 --> 00:28:04,480
currency that feels like
it buys you into the club.

891
00:28:05,550 --> 00:28:05,940
Totally.

892
00:28:05,970 --> 00:28:06,331
Right, right.

893
00:28:06,450 --> 00:28:07,470
Yes, absolutely.

894
00:28:07,470 --> 00:28:07,679
That's where

895
00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:10,200
it really goes south, where
it's like, well, I have

896
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,700
to have something know.

897
00:28:12,345 --> 00:28:14,025
Go home and talk to your
partner, like, we're gonna have

898
00:28:14,025 --> 00:28:15,465
to adopt a cat or something.

899
00:28:15,465 --> 00:28:16,785
So I have something
to talk about.

900
00:28:16,785 --> 00:28:16,965
Right?

901
00:28:16,965 --> 00:28:18,015
Everybody's talking
about their kids.

902
00:28:18,015 --> 00:28:19,845
It's like, I, we gotta, I gotta
have something, I gotta have

903
00:28:19,845 --> 00:28:20,655
something to contribute here.

904
00:28:20,895 --> 00:28:21,645
It's so funny you should say.

905
00:28:21,645 --> 00:28:22,935
That's where it becomes
really problematic.

906
00:28:23,205 --> 00:28:24,855
I remember having this feeling.

907
00:28:24,945 --> 00:28:25,650
Okay, so yeah.

908
00:28:25,655 --> 00:28:25,905
Yeah.

909
00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:28,515
When we were growing the agency,
it was getting bigger and bigger

910
00:28:28,815 --> 00:28:31,725
and we built a board, an actual
board, like, and they were all

911
00:28:31,725 --> 00:28:33,645
like the operating heads of the
different parts of the company.

912
00:28:33,645 --> 00:28:35,265
We had about maybe 700
people at the time.

913
00:28:35,625 --> 00:28:37,575
I was the youngest
person in that room.

914
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:38,570
Buy a lot.

915
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,540
Now, when I say buy a lot,
I was probably 26 at the

916
00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:44,900
time, and the average person
there was like 42, but

917
00:28:45,020 --> 00:28:46,490
everybody had five kids or so.

918
00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:46,880
It seemed.

919
00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:48,200
Everybody loved golf.

920
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,200
Everybody had all these things
that had nothing to do with me.

921
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:54,260
And I remember then we'd go
on client meetings and we'd

922
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:57,410
be with client from Best Buy
or BMW or whatever, and that

923
00:28:57,410 --> 00:29:01,040
dude would be 42 years old with
five kids in a golf membership.

924
00:29:01,130 --> 00:29:02,960
And all people would
talk about instant

925
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,560
camaraderie.

926
00:29:03,605 --> 00:29:04,085
Right, right.

927
00:29:04,085 --> 00:29:05,645
Was five kids in
a golf membership.

928
00:29:05,645 --> 00:29:08,315
And I remember thinking
like, this sucks.

929
00:29:08,645 --> 00:29:11,405
And feeling so on the
outside feeling like, like

930
00:29:11,405 --> 00:29:12,305
I, I'm not even kidding.

931
00:29:12,365 --> 00:29:16,355
I took golf lessons just so
I could know what the hell

932
00:29:16,355 --> 00:29:17,465
these guys were talking about.

933
00:29:17,465 --> 00:29:20,405
'cause they were, they
thought their golf puns and

934
00:29:20,405 --> 00:29:22,025
jokes were so goddamn funny.

935
00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:23,440
Turns out they're not.

936
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,540
They're actually super
stupid and I have no idea

937
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:27,400
why people get so like,
worked up about them.

938
00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:29,710
You are like, oh, you
overshot on that one.

939
00:29:29,710 --> 00:29:30,490
Oh my God.

940
00:29:30,490 --> 00:29:30,700
Right?

941
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:32,170
And everyone's like
belly laughing.

942
00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:33,760
I'm like, what the
hell is going on here?

943
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:34,060
Right.

944
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:39,430
But I remember feeling so much
on the outside because they

945
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:42,220
had a a, a compact between them
that this is what we're gonna

946
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:46,510
share, this is what we're gonna
value, and if you contribute,

947
00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:48,520
you get high fives and respect.

948
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:49,035
But if you don't.

949
00:29:49,784 --> 00:29:51,584
You're ousted, you're
just on the outside.

950
00:29:51,794 --> 00:29:56,205
Yeah, just, and, and again,
I I say this to say, as you

951
00:29:56,205 --> 00:29:58,544
know, a middle-aged white
man, like, you're, you're,

952
00:29:58,544 --> 00:30:00,615
you just assume that I'm
always on the inside, right?

953
00:30:00,615 --> 00:30:02,324
Like it's just kind of the
way the world looks at it.

954
00:30:02,685 --> 00:30:05,264
And Yeah, some we're sometimes
on the outside too, and it all,

955
00:30:05,715 --> 00:30:07,094
it does feel really shitty.

956
00:30:07,455 --> 00:30:09,915
And now you think about
like the instantiating

957
00:30:09,915 --> 00:30:10,725
that into a culture.

958
00:30:10,725 --> 00:30:12,435
However you, you know,
build that culture.

959
00:30:12,824 --> 00:30:13,604
I'll give you an example.

960
00:30:13,814 --> 00:30:15,585
There are certain cultures, I'm
gonna use Google in this case.

961
00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:16,630
Okay.

962
00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:20,320
That was, uh, it is an
incredibly liberal culture

963
00:30:20,860 --> 00:30:25,240
and they've had wildly big
problems with folks in their

964
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,950
culture that were not liberal.

965
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:27,790
Right?

966
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:27,910
Yeah.

967
00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:29,770
Uh, if you remember
that, that one developer

968
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:30,670
that they had Yeah.

969
00:30:30,730 --> 00:30:32,530
Uh, that sued Google and
I think won for like a

970
00:30:32,530 --> 00:30:33,490
hundred million dollars.

971
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:33,820
Yeah.

972
00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:33,821
Yeah.

973
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,300
It was a, they basically saying
like, I don't identify with

974
00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:39,970
your politics, et cetera,
and I got fired for it.

975
00:30:40,485 --> 00:30:43,485
And I thought to myself,
it's a problem because it

976
00:30:43,485 --> 00:30:45,885
lacks a certain amount of
self-awareness on Sure.

977
00:30:46,275 --> 00:30:48,975
Within Google as the
culture they had created,

978
00:30:49,365 --> 00:30:52,335
well-intentioned as it
were, that it was actually

979
00:30:52,515 --> 00:30:53,895
becoming a problem for itself.

980
00:30:53,925 --> 00:30:54,015
You

981
00:30:54,015 --> 00:30:54,375
know what I mean?

982
00:30:54,765 --> 00:30:55,006
Yeah, yeah.

983
00:30:55,425 --> 00:30:57,615
Anything taken to an extreme
tends, tends to do that.

984
00:30:57,615 --> 00:30:59,055
But I think it's
interesting, right?

985
00:30:59,055 --> 00:31:00,010
Like I think this is where like.

986
00:31:00,645 --> 00:31:03,105
We have to be careful
where Founder Ego enters

987
00:31:03,105 --> 00:31:05,835
the mix here and can
absolutely stomp all over

988
00:31:05,835 --> 00:31:08,055
organizational clarity, right?

989
00:31:08,055 --> 00:31:10,185
Like where we, we start to
believe something fundamentally

990
00:31:10,185 --> 00:31:11,415
and we wanna make that true.

991
00:31:11,925 --> 00:31:13,125
Does everybody else want to?

992
00:31:13,125 --> 00:31:13,305
Right?

993
00:31:13,305 --> 00:31:14,835
Going back to that whole,
the, the, you know,

994
00:31:14,835 --> 00:31:17,955
culture needs to have some
implicit consent to it.

995
00:31:18,255 --> 00:31:20,505
And I think, you know, kind of
back to your point around like,

996
00:31:20,505 --> 00:31:21,525
I just want to fit in here.

997
00:31:21,525 --> 00:31:22,515
I want to be part of this.

998
00:31:22,905 --> 00:31:26,505
Wanting to be liked should not
be equal to being effective.

999
00:31:26,505 --> 00:31:27,950
And of course that's not
what we're trying to create.

1000
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,409
But I think that's the message
that can get sent too, right?

1001
00:31:31,409 --> 00:31:35,460
Which is if you conform to some
of these things, if you start

1002
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:39,360
to fit in, if you start to
reciprocate in these ways, then

1003
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,050
you'll be liked, and that seems
to be held in higher esteem.

1004
00:31:43,410 --> 00:31:44,370
Than being effective.

1005
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:44,880
Right.

1006
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,860
Imagine the message
that sends to people.

1007
00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:47,400
Yeah.

1008
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,330
It's, it's dangerous.

1009
00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:52,620
I, I think, you know, kind
of what this maps back to is

1010
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:56,550
that we need to, to lead and
we need to organize within

1011
00:31:56,550 --> 00:31:58,470
ourselves around respect.

1012
00:31:58,935 --> 00:31:59,865
Not friendships.

1013
00:32:00,075 --> 00:32:00,375
Right.

1014
00:32:00,375 --> 00:32:02,025
And, and there's nothing
wrong with friendships.

1015
00:32:02,025 --> 00:32:04,695
Friendships are wonderful,
but I think we need a

1016
00:32:04,695 --> 00:32:05,625
different construct.

1017
00:32:05,625 --> 00:32:07,785
And, and I think someone
like Reed Hastings,

1018
00:32:07,785 --> 00:32:09,105
the founder of Netflix.

1019
00:32:09,405 --> 00:32:09,705
Yeah.

1020
00:32:09,765 --> 00:32:11,775
He leaned into this heavily
at a time when it was

1021
00:32:11,775 --> 00:32:13,005
not popular to do this.

1022
00:32:13,275 --> 00:32:15,885
And he actually had this like
hard coded into their, their

1023
00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:19,095
company manual or, or cultural
code or or whatever you call it.

1024
00:32:19,095 --> 00:32:20,055
And he was very public about it.

1025
00:32:20,235 --> 00:32:22,695
He said specifically, and
again, I believe this is

1026
00:32:22,695 --> 00:32:27,105
in their company documents,
we are not a family.

1027
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,820
At a time when that
was like just heretical

1028
00:32:29,820 --> 00:32:30,630
to say, right, sure.

1029
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:31,590
Like how dare you.

1030
00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:32,010
Right.

1031
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:33,090
And here's what he said.

1032
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,110
'cause he is just a smart guy.

1033
00:32:34,110 --> 00:32:38,040
He said, look, a family
is a family that is based

1034
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,990
on unconditional love.

1035
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:40,530
Right?

1036
00:32:40,530 --> 00:32:40,680
Yeah.

1037
00:32:41,130 --> 00:32:43,800
If Uncle Eddie is a jerk, or
he is the coolest guy in the

1038
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,600
world, he's still in the family.

1039
00:32:45,885 --> 00:32:46,245
Right.

1040
00:32:46,485 --> 00:32:47,535
This is not that.

1041
00:32:47,835 --> 00:32:50,145
He said we are more like a
professional sports team.

1042
00:32:50,475 --> 00:32:50,625
Yeah.

1043
00:32:50,685 --> 00:32:53,655
He said we share a common
goal, we share a common good.

1044
00:32:54,015 --> 00:32:56,805
We may even share common
values, but ultimately if

1045
00:32:56,805 --> 00:32:59,595
we don't all contribute
and perform, uh, equally

1046
00:32:59,595 --> 00:33:02,445
or as well, we get benched
or removed from the team.

1047
00:33:02,775 --> 00:33:03,885
And I thought that was.

1048
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,000
A much better metaphor.

1049
00:33:06,420 --> 00:33:07,020
Holy cow.

1050
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:08,910
That would've been useful
information 30 years ago.

1051
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:10,740
A little bit

1052
00:33:10,740 --> 00:33:11,160
too late.

1053
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:11,580
Yeah.

1054
00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:11,635
Yeah, yeah.

1055
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:12,450
Would've been a little easier.

1056
00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:14,940
I mean, yeah, when you think
about it, like it's yes, you

1057
00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:18,240
know there there are aspects
of a startup team that could

1058
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,200
start to look like a family.

1059
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:19,500
Sure.

1060
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:19,680
Right.

1061
00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:21,780
But I think the analogy is much
better if we look at this as

1062
00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:24,030
a professional sports team,
because like at some point.

1063
00:33:24,405 --> 00:33:26,955
If you stop performing, we
have to stop putting you in.

1064
00:33:27,255 --> 00:33:27,645
Correct.

1065
00:33:27,645 --> 00:33:27,885
Right.

1066
00:33:27,885 --> 00:33:28,545
It's just numeric.

1067
00:33:28,545 --> 00:33:29,265
Also reverse it.

1068
00:33:29,265 --> 00:33:30,705
'cause here's the part that
we always forget, like what

1069
00:33:30,705 --> 00:33:32,625
happens if you, if you, if
you put the shoe on the other

1070
00:33:32,625 --> 00:33:34,185
foot, what if we stop paying?

1071
00:33:34,515 --> 00:33:35,265
Do you keep playing?

1072
00:33:35,265 --> 00:33:36,105
Because we're family.

1073
00:33:36,345 --> 00:33:36,525
Right.

1074
00:33:36,525 --> 00:33:37,305
Not for long.

1075
00:33:37,365 --> 00:33:37,635
Right.

1076
00:33:37,815 --> 00:33:38,055
Right.

1077
00:33:38,055 --> 00:33:40,845
And so I think that that's,
again, it, it sounds great

1078
00:33:40,845 --> 00:33:44,385
and good times when there's
any strife, any challenge,

1079
00:33:44,385 --> 00:33:47,235
then I think the, the
family metaphor breaks down.

1080
00:33:47,535 --> 00:33:48,945
But I think the question and
the question that they were

1081
00:33:48,945 --> 00:33:50,865
trying to answer, I think
this is the, this is a great

1082
00:33:50,865 --> 00:33:53,985
answer to this question is
like, how do you keep empathy?

1083
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,950
Without eroding authority.

1084
00:33:56,340 --> 00:34:00,389
And that's really hard to do
in a family context, right?

1085
00:34:00,659 --> 00:34:03,000
The more empathetic I am,
the less authority I tend

1086
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,169
to have with my kids.

1087
00:34:04,260 --> 00:34:04,980
Let, let, let me give

1088
00:34:04,980 --> 00:34:05,879
you another vector there.

1089
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:07,655
Uh, tell me what you
think about this.

1090
00:34:08,415 --> 00:34:11,085
I think part of what he was
addressing too is that the

1091
00:34:11,085 --> 00:34:14,415
concept of family comes with
a fundamental entitlement.

1092
00:34:14,745 --> 00:34:14,895
Yes.

1093
00:34:14,925 --> 00:34:17,264
If I perform or don't
perform, I'm still family.

1094
00:34:17,295 --> 00:34:18,284
Doesn't matter,
we're still a family.

1095
00:34:18,525 --> 00:34:18,884
Right, right.

1096
00:34:18,884 --> 00:34:19,725
We may not like
each other anymore.

1097
00:34:19,725 --> 00:34:20,505
We might even speak.

1098
00:34:20,625 --> 00:34:23,565
We're still a family and, and
I think that's a dangerous

1099
00:34:23,565 --> 00:34:27,420
construct in terms of a,
of a company because again,

1100
00:34:27,764 --> 00:34:31,215
that entitlement always
ends poorly, always ends.

1101
00:34:31,425 --> 00:34:32,985
I've never seen an
entitlement where

1102
00:34:32,985 --> 00:34:34,514
I'm like, man, that
that worked out so well.

1103
00:34:34,634 --> 00:34:35,324
That worked out so well.

1104
00:34:35,475 --> 00:34:35,985
Well, in this case.

1105
00:34:36,715 --> 00:34:39,325
Essentially what you're doing
is masking consequences.

1106
00:34:39,715 --> 00:34:42,715
You're pretending that there
aren't consequences there.

1107
00:34:42,715 --> 00:34:43,045
Sure.

1108
00:34:43,045 --> 00:34:44,034
As shit are right.

1109
00:34:44,335 --> 00:34:46,945
You could have hired your
absolute best friends.

1110
00:34:47,095 --> 00:34:47,395
Right?

1111
00:34:47,395 --> 00:34:47,935
And I don't care.

1112
00:34:47,935 --> 00:34:48,745
It wouldn't have
matter what they do.

1113
00:34:49,014 --> 00:34:49,825
At some point.

1114
00:34:49,825 --> 00:34:52,885
Like if no one is
performing and there's no

1115
00:34:52,885 --> 00:34:54,264
money, no one gets paid.

1116
00:34:55,005 --> 00:34:56,955
There isn't some magic
bucket of money that we,

1117
00:34:56,955 --> 00:34:58,185
that we pay people out of it.

1118
00:34:58,185 --> 00:35:01,275
It's like, okay, this, this
does have real consequences.

1119
00:35:01,275 --> 00:35:03,555
And so I think it's dangerous
for us as the founder to pretend

1120
00:35:03,555 --> 00:35:06,134
there's no consequences, but
I think we never really can

1121
00:35:06,134 --> 00:35:07,634
truly avoid the consequences.

1122
00:35:08,085 --> 00:35:10,065
But for the rest of the
team, they also have to be

1123
00:35:10,065 --> 00:35:12,705
very clear that, yeah, there
are real consequences here.

1124
00:35:13,185 --> 00:35:14,340
And if we pretend
we're a family.

1125
00:35:14,970 --> 00:35:18,630
Where consequences don't exist
to that same level, we're doing

1126
00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:19,950
everybody a huge disservice

1127
00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:20,820
build on that.

1128
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,030
So there's another side of it
where if the founder believes

1129
00:35:24,030 --> 00:35:27,450
that this is family, they build
an entitlement to say yes.

1130
00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:28,170
How dare you leave?

1131
00:35:28,965 --> 00:35:29,445
Right.

1132
00:35:29,505 --> 00:35:30,375
We are so tight.

1133
00:35:30,585 --> 00:35:31,155
No, dude.

1134
00:35:31,365 --> 00:35:32,505
I'm gonna leave the moment.

1135
00:35:32,505 --> 00:35:35,160
Some other opportunity
is a better, uh, dare.

1136
00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:36,285
How dare do you expect to raise?

1137
00:35:36,345 --> 00:35:36,465
Yeah.

1138
00:35:36,465 --> 00:35:36,675
Right.

1139
00:35:38,055 --> 00:35:40,125
I'm like, I'm gonna leave
as soon as there's another

1140
00:35:40,125 --> 00:35:42,675
opportunity that's, that's
a better, uh, opportunity

1141
00:35:42,675 --> 00:35:45,105
for my family, my actual
family, the people that

1142
00:35:45,105 --> 00:35:45,975
I have to provide for.

1143
00:35:46,545 --> 00:35:49,335
I'm gonna go somewhere else,
not because, you know, I

1144
00:35:49,335 --> 00:35:51,615
think you're the worst person
ever, but because you know,

1145
00:35:51,645 --> 00:35:54,225
I have better opportunity to
do something to grow, to get

1146
00:35:54,225 --> 00:35:56,115
paid, whatever, somewhere else.

1147
00:35:56,295 --> 00:36:00,135
So if this whole time you
founder person thought that

1148
00:36:00,135 --> 00:36:02,505
I was going to stay out
of some entitlement you

1149
00:36:02,505 --> 00:36:05,445
had over me about this,
this false construct.

1150
00:36:05,775 --> 00:36:07,845
Then shame on you again.

1151
00:36:07,875 --> 00:36:10,785
I've seen a lot of that where
I hear the founders either

1152
00:36:10,785 --> 00:36:13,395
their butt hurt because
someone left and they're like,

1153
00:36:13,395 --> 00:36:14,685
I thought we were so close.

1154
00:36:15,075 --> 00:36:18,825
I was like, yeah, you created
a construct, a force field,

1155
00:36:18,825 --> 00:36:21,945
essentially for this person
that they never asked for.

1156
00:36:22,125 --> 00:36:25,185
Whenever anybody's ever
left our organization.

1157
00:36:25,215 --> 00:36:28,725
Certainly anything I I've ever
done, I've never once felt.

1158
00:36:29,070 --> 00:36:32,910
They deserve to stay
because of some false

1159
00:36:32,910 --> 00:36:33,990
entitlement that I've had.

1160
00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:37,710
Yeah, I have said on certain
cases, like you worked here for

1161
00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:40,080
a year, did absolutely no work,
and took all my money, right?

1162
00:36:40,590 --> 00:36:41,250
And pissed

1163
00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:41,910
about that.

1164
00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:45,240
So look, I think when it's all
said and done, like we have

1165
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,030
to be human, we have to be
kind, we have to be empathetic.

1166
00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:51,330
But we have to remember that
we are running a team, right?

1167
00:36:51,330 --> 00:36:52,680
We're not hosting
a family reunion.

1168
00:36:53,130 --> 00:36:56,940
We should shoot for respect,
sprinkle in some empathy, and

1169
00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:58,620
leave the group hug for later.

1170
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:01,529
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1171
00:37:01,950 --> 00:37:04,799
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1172
00:37:04,859 --> 00:37:07,799
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1173
00:37:08,009 --> 00:37:10,350
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1174
00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:12,810
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1175
00:37:12,930 --> 00:37:17,580
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1176
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:18,600
to see if it's for you.

1177
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:19,890
Could be just the
thing you need.

1178
00:37:20,129 --> 00:37:21,089
I hope to see you inside.