[0:00:06] Crystal Ware: That's what other people do. They hold themselves out as experts and they get hired. So yeah, go ahead, bite the bullet. Tell them you're the expert. Just say it out loud with your big girl voice.

[0:00:21] Crystal Ware: Welcome to the Get Clear with Crystal Ware podcast, where we get clear on our goals, own our worth, and learn to be the CEOs of our own lives. I'm your host, Crystal Ware, lawyer and former Fortune 500 corporate leader who found the confidence to say goodbye to a lucrative career and start my own business. Now I'm opening up the playbook and sharing everything I've learned to get you there faster. It may not be easy, but it will always be worth it because you are made for more. So put on your big girl pants, jump on board, and let's reach for the stars. Are you ready to get clear? Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Whatever time it is, wherever you're listening, welcome back to the get clear with crystal ware podcast. And today we have a really awesome, amazing, well rounded woman joining us. Winter Wheeler. And her name could not be any more perfect, literally, for being in print, on TV, everywhere. It is like the perfect name. Winter is a former top civil litigator who has made her niche as an expert mediator. She is sought out for her unique, compassionate, and successful style, handing complex matters that involve a diverse range of cultures, including Spanish speaking clients. Winter is the creator of the four cornerstones of mediation, which she actually introduced to the world in her first TEDx Talk.

[0:01:50] Crystal Ware: That was in March of 2021. On the heels of the Great Big Pandemic, she has turned that methodology into a 14 hours mediation and certification course as well. Then went on to have a second TEDx Talk, Confessions of a Mom Who Has It All, which we're going to dive into with her today. And she is the co author of one of the best selling books, Hashtagnetworked, as well as the creator and host of the Mediate Now podcast. So, literally, Winter has it all, does it all, and is going to share it all with us today. So welcome to the show, Winter.

[0:02:26] Winter Wheeler: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

[0:02:29] Crystal Ware: So there's so much to go into and talk about today. I always like to start for people to really hear and understand how your drive to be a lawyer turned into your drive to go into entrepreneurship and start your own mediation practice. Because I just think a lot of people out there, especially right now, this day and age we're in, women are looking for something different. And hearing and seeing it from people that have gone before that you can really feel and understand that gives people the reality and the understanding that they can too do that. So tell us a little bit about your early path and then how you pivoted into your current business.

[0:03:17] Winter Wheeler: So I started out as a civil litigator down in Florida. Mediation is mandatory down there at the time, so I participated as the defense attorney in mediations and always thought that those were my best days. I really enjoyed those. Seeing a client get a case resolved and kind of seeing that sense of relief kind of wash over them at the end of it was always a really cool feeling. It was definitely totally a high kind of in that process realized I wanted to be the mediator. I didn't want to be the lawyer anymore. I wanted to be the mediator. And so I got myself a mentor and figured out a plan, a very long term plan, because it took me, like, 1516 years or something to become a mediator. Like I said, it was a long plan. It was a long game, but it worked out. So I took very specific and intentional steps with my career and the types of work that I did and the places I worked, and when it was time for me to make the jump, I didn't know it was time. You know how sometimes when it's time to make a move, the universe just kind of pushes you in that direction while you waffle about absolutely happening? So I had the opportunity come up to start mediating, and I was initially kind of like, okay, well, this is awesome, but I don't have any clients, so I think I will continue to work at the law firm for a while and see kind of how that goes. And well, the law firm was just like I'll just be blunt. They were like, Absolutely not.

[0:05:19] Crystal Ware: We do not want you building a practice as a mediator. Just don't want you to do it. And so I said, all right, cool. And I left. That was kind of it. And in the book Hashtagnetworks, I do talk very specifically about kind of how that conversation went, because it was not good. The woman that I spoke with at the firm, she was just degrading, quite frankly. She said, lots of people want to be mediators, very few of them ware successful, and there's no reason for you to believe that you'll be successful. Okay, cool. And I did. I went back to my desk that day and quit. I don't need this. I don't need this at all. I believe in myself. I didn't need her to believe in me.

[0:06:15] Winter Wheeler: And so that was October of 2019, and so right before the pandemic, and I'm busily trying to figure out, how do I build this practice now from literally zero. And now this is my full time gig. I got to figure it out. And so I just kind of buckled down, got to it, and managed to do it during the pandemic. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of how we got to that point. I don't know.

[0:06:51] Crystal Ware: That's amazing. And I have two questions to follow up on there. One you talked about getting a mentor. Was that somebody you sought out? Was it like a paid coach? Was it somebody at your firm? Can you tell us a little bit about how you found them, what role they played, et cetera?

[0:07:07] Winter Wheeler: He was a mediator that I worked with a lot and I started asking him questions about it and he realized I was 100% serious about it. And so he helped me kind of divide the plan and he said, you have to figure out what kind of mediator you want to be, where in your life do you want to potentially do this? And he said, quite frankly, if you want to be a top mediator and one who makes good money doing it, you're going to need a lot of legal experience, point blank, period. You need to know how to do a lot of different things. And so I set out to learn to do a lot of different things and would pivot my career. And listen, I was very blessed to be able to do it this way. I don't know if everybody would be able to, but I started out doing general liability defense, doing some premises and things like that and slips and falls and that kind of stuff, which is fantastic. It's a great way to get started with mediation because there's so much of it car wrecks, things like that. And then I just kind of transitioned into doing a lot of municipal work and representing cities and counties. That's a great little niche as well. And then I did some employment law and so just kind of building on everything that I had. Trying to maintain all of those practice areas as I went about this process was difficult. But knowing that the end goal was to mediate and to be a successful mediator, it helped keep me motivated during that very long kind of litigation slog for all of those years. So yeah, he really did just help me kind of design what the career could look like or should look like. And I just faithfully executed over the next decade and a half or so.

[0:09:18] Crystal Ware: Well, I think that's incredible. And that really leads into the next point that I picked up on when you were talking about and sharing that story is that the intentionality and the length of time, because so many times I think really exacerbated in the last 30, 50 years with digitization everything moving so quickly, people ware used to right at your fingertips. Here is the thing, I'm going to go get it, I'm going to do that thing. But sometimes along the way you need to have a breadth of experience and you need to have a plan in place. And it's very similar. I didn't have twelve plus years, but I did pick along the way on my path. Similarly, about ten years strategizing on the different areas of insurance that I wanted to focus on so that I could be well rounded. And then it just kind of came to me that I wanted to be an entrepreneur instead. And so I built out also my own practice, like you, but the points along the way. And I remember especially my dad coming from that generation, he was like, why do you keep changing jobs? Why are you doing something different? And I was like, Believe me, I have a plan, okay? I have a plan. This is not just, I'm not happy with my job. Get me jump to something that's going to pay me $5 more.

[0:10:46] Crystal Ware: It really was strategic, and I think that is part of the thing that I like to impart to women a lot, is like, when you're thinking about what you're going to move and do, it's so much more than just a monetary gain. It really is about what is going to help me get to the end of where I want to go. Do I need to position myself with certain people, with a certain type of company, with a certain type of work? And then in there also is that factor of, okay, money also. But sometimes you need to take a new job to get a certain skill set that may not actually pay you more. And if you really believe in your long term vision and where you want to go, you got to take that leap of faith and be willing to do that. So I love seeing that you went along the way with this master plan, and you kind of chipped away at the mountain stepping one at a time to build to your end goal. I just think that's really good and powerful for people to hear.

[0:11:46] Crystal Ware: Thank you. Yeah, we definitely have that in common. I would hear that, too, from my parents. They're like, what ware you doing? I'm like, Trust me, there is a method to the madness. And being in the legal field, you're working with these much older people a lot of the time, and they were always very confused, what is she doing? And I always felt like I had to lie to them, like, yeah, I definitely want to be seeing your partner here, when clearly that was not what I wanted. But in order to keep the train moving, these were the things that I had to do, because that older generation, they just don't see it the same way. So there was never going to be a time where I stayed somewhere for too long, because I certainly didn't want to get stagnant. I wanted to be out meeting new lawyers and more lawyers all the time. So I certainly couldn't stay in one place for very long. And of course, when you're working, if you're really good at something, people want you to do that thing, right. There would be instances where, oh, winter is really good at this. And one example was residential water intrusion cases. Yeah, those were somewhat interesting for a little while, but did I want to be like winter Intrusion Girl for the rest of my career?

[0:13:08] Crystal Ware: No, absolutely not.

[0:13:12] Crystal Ware: Wow. Just think about the name of a podcast. I'm the water intrusion girl. Are you having water spilling into your home? I will help you. No, we need people that do all these things. Okay. This is foundational things. Yes, but I feel you. If you are a growth oriented, learning oriented, knowledge seeker, you're going to kind of tap out there at where you can go. And I know for some people, it's wonderful to have this awesome job and career and making pretty good money without having to keep stretching yourself. That works for some people. That has never worked for me. I always got the idle finger syndrome. My husband even says it's like, oh, there's not enough going on.

[0:14:01] Crystal Ware: We don't have any projects going on. You don't have any investing to do. You have to find I'm like, yes, I just can't stay at this place, which sometimes is a blessing and a curse. Sometimes I would like to relax more, but that's not our personality.

[0:14:19] Crystal Ware: No, definitely not. I have to try to be more careful about that. So I didn't tell you this as part of what's been going on with me recently. So I injured myself. I hurt my ankle. Like, I fell because I'm just clumsy. Right? I wish this was a fabulous story. Like, I was skiing and no, I just fell over a curve.

[0:14:40] Crystal Ware: Oh, no.

[0:14:42] Crystal Ware: Hurt my ankle and didn't want to take the time to go see a doctor. It didn't get better. So I'm like, Let me go make sure this isn't broken. They're like, go get X rays. Okay, cool. It's not broken. It'll heal. Well, it didn't. It did not. So finally I break down. I go to the Orthopedist. And she's like, you've been walking on this for, like, months. Yeah, it's been nearly a year. She's like, oh, my God. I did physical therapy.

[0:15:14] Crystal Ware: I had to stop and do all of the things. Like, if I would have just stopped and slowed down a little bit when this happened, I wouldn't be here right now wearing a boot.

[0:15:28] Crystal Ware: Oh, no.

[0:15:29] Crystal Ware: Yeah. The doctor essentially said to me the same thing everyone is always saying to me, winter, slow down. You don't always have to be moving. She's like, I want to put you in a hard cast. I was like, don't do that. Don't do that. I can't take that. I will literally not be able to do anything. And she said, Well, I'm going to put you in this boot, and you better have it on unless you're sleeping. I was like, yes, ma'am, I will do it. And I am so slow right now. I hate you.

[0:16:03] Crystal Ware: Got to get one of those scooters, girl. You got to get one of those scooters where you have the one leg on, you're scooting down, right? You can still go fast without but she's right. If you get a hard cast, that will really slow you down. That will complicate so many things. So you got to get it fixed. You got to let it heal.

[0:16:24] Crystal Ware: If I could figure out how to accessorize a little scooter like that, I'd probably be game. But.

[0:16:32] Crystal Ware: Oh, my gosh. Well, speedy recovery. For that, you definitely have to let it heal. You can't be burdened by that. There's too much to do and too many exciting projects to tackle. And all your kids, so that is something else. You're a mom of how many?

[0:16:50] Crystal Ware: Four.

[0:16:51] Crystal Ware: So this whole time you're going, you're working hard, having babies, too. Is there anything what do you think was the hardest or the most challenging thing of having kids and practicing law?

[0:17:08] Crystal Ware: Oh, God. Working with people who didn't care. You've probably heard that saying, and I'm going to butcher it because I'm on the spot. But it's like women are expected to work as though they don't have families, right? And then parent as though you don't work. Something's got to give, right? And I remember very specifically and this was just the craziest situation, so I think at the time I had two children, so, I mean, now this would be easy. I had two kids. I had been busily working on some projects for a senior partner and gave it to him. Let's say it was like a Tuesday afternoon. He comes back to me on Friday afternoon as I'm about to leave to go get my children from school, as my husband works on evenings. And he's like, well, this isn't done. And I said, Well, I gave it to you on Tuesday. I will happily work on it over the weekend. But right now, winter is leaving.

[0:18:26] Crystal Ware: I have to leave this building and go get my children. And he was like, well, this is really unprofessional and irresponsible. And I said, Is it, though? I did what I was supposed to do, and it is now, and it was in your hands, and so I can't make this an emergency over and above my children. I said, Send me an email later. I'll work on it, and left. But it was infuriating. He knew I had children. Why suggest that I don't pick up my kids? It was things like that. I remember I had very hard pregnancies each time and was ultimately disabled with every single one of them. When my first baby, I went out on maternity leave, like, a month before my due date. And as I'm preparing to do this, I remember one of the senior partners said, I don't understand why you have to leave this early. I've got three kids, and I've never seen such a thing.

[0:19:35] Crystal Ware: Was it a man or a woman?

[0:19:37] Crystal Ware: Oh, it was a man.

[0:19:38] Crystal Ware: Okay.

[0:19:41] Crystal Ware: But I've heard terrible things like that from women, too. So I think it's a generational mentality and not just gender specific, I'll say.

[0:19:54] Crystal Ware: Yeah, I've worked with some ladies that I actually tried really hard not to work with. One in particular that didn't have children had been a career lifer at the company we're at. And I knew I'd gotten her win, that she wanted me to come on her team. And I, behind the scenes, kind of went around the way that that was going to go and got myself in a better position, because it was very clear to me that she was not going to be understanding of having a life beyond your job. And then I went to work with a man. So this is why definitely you can't stereotype everybody who had a stay at home wife. So he by and large did not have to do all those things, but was more than understanding and valued family above everything else and worked with me when I had my first child on how everything was going to go, how that looked while I was pregnant after just everything. But it is really interesting to me that even now I still hear that and really with people that are probably more in our age category than the generation above us and it's just baffling. I think it should be so obvious, especially if you are a man who has a stay at home wife and then you're working with a woman, clearly the woman does not stay home. So whatever your wife is doing all day to help the kids in the house and DA DA DA, well, guess what? Somebody else still has to do that. So not having any common sense or just feel about that, it's just basic human things that blow my mind. At the end of the day when you have real deadlines, real emergencies, I think most people, like you or I are going to say, fine, if I need to stay till 08:00 and get something done. That is truly like you have a filing the next day or something. You have trial coming up, but when it doesn't have a hard deadline why are you putting these expectations on people?

[0:22:11] Crystal Ware: Why would you even want to have that on yourself? We should all have a life, right?

[0:22:16] Crystal Ware: Like a late Friday afternoon artificial deadline, like, sir, this is not a real deadline.

[0:22:26] Crystal Ware: There should be a law that offices closed down, basically, unless you want to continue working or have a project, right? All nonessential work is concluded at 04:00 p.m.. Basically should be the rule in my book and that's how I try to handle it with anybody that I work with, whether a vendor, whether somebody I'm paying consultant or my employees. I always feel that way and I tell people that and I lead with that. It just should be what it is. So then when you transition back to work, what do you think was the hardest thing getting back into it? Other than, of course, having to pick up kids and do that kind of stuff. But was there anything specific that stuck out to you that if you could see things or control things that you would have it be different?

[0:23:15] Crystal Ware: Oh, my yeah. I feel like the the general attitude toward me was different every time. So this one particular law firm, I had two of my children there, and it's like, at this point, I had my third and fourth babies there. So, I mean, clearly I was still working, right? But there was always this kind of anticipation that suddenly I was going to stop working. Like, oh, are you coming back? Are you sure?

[0:23:48] Crystal Ware: Yes.

[0:23:48] Crystal Ware: At what point have I given you any indication otherwise? And it was just frustrating having to feeling like I'm constantly having to rededicate myself. I haven't changed. Y'all you're the one struggling here. It was a lot of that and having work expectations kind of shift, or not even expectations, but work responsibilities. So my caseload would change, or the types of cases I was able to do would change in that lead up to maternity leave. They essentially want to take everything from you, right? Like, oh, well, you're going to be gone. But I'm still here right now, and I anticipate being here for the next six months. If there was something that I could have changed, it would be just allowing people to live their lives. Like, pregnancy is not an illness. I was disabled eventually by the end of my pregnancies, but it's not generally a disability. I was still physically able to do my job, which consisted of sitting on a computer and typing, so I was still able to do it. But I think it would have been so much more beneficial if we were having open conversations with women about what they expect of themselves, for themselves, and what they know their bodies will allow them to do, as opposed to having kind of the hierarchy get at it and thrust these kind of old fashioned limitations on us. And then even just practically speaking, I nursed all of my children, so I had to pump when I went back to school, when I went back to the office, not have children in school.

[0:25:54] Crystal Ware: And I remember I had this office that was like full glass paneling, right? So they had to put up, like, box paper, like just this brown paper to cover it up. And I remember I had my door closed, and I'm pumping, and I can hear one of the senior partners talking to my secretary literally right outside my door. I just think it's inappropriate that she's got this paper up there. I mean, we can see all the other lawyers. Why can't we see her? Oh, my God. Just the lack of awareness and care was just palpable.

[0:26:37] Crystal Ware: That is so bizarre. I mean, on the one hand, you could say, well, if you give a pump room, then you're all good. And then I don't have to do this. But on the other hand, I personally would say and what I did is like to just pump in my office, too. I did not want to have to pack everything up and go somewhere else. My computer was here. Yeah, the place I had my first child, my doors were and everything was opaque. And we had some kind of window covering that we could pull down. So I would just put up a little sign and I was like, hey, everybody, this is what's going on. So enter at your own risk. Because I had screens there, so even if people did come in, they couldn't see, but most people would probably be more uncomfortable than I would have been. I would have been like, yeah, it is what it is. But at the next place, ware, I had my other two children. I had glass doors, but we had a little huddle room and nobody sat over there, so I would just go and turn my back to the wall. Because we did have pump rooms, but it was like two floors.

[0:27:42] Crystal Ware: Down and other people would be in there because it was a very big campus that we were on, and I just didn't like that. So I was like, I'm going to risk it and I'm going to go, because after you have a couple of kids, you're just not that embarrassed.

[0:27:58] Crystal Ware: Yeah, I definitely didn't care. They didn't have locks. There were no interior locks on our doors. So I got what is it? A doorstop? Yeah.

[0:28:11] Crystal Ware: That's smart. I didn't even know about that yet.

[0:28:14] Crystal Ware: Yeah, just put a doorstop under there and I mean, I guess if you try it hard enough, you could push your way through, but enter at your own risk. At that point, I didn't care.

[0:28:24] Crystal Ware: Absolutely.

[0:28:25] Crystal Ware: Yeah.

[0:28:26] Crystal Ware: So continue to working. And I always think of I mean, I have three kids, and I ran into a lady at our kids school who I knew they had six kids, but I did not realize she also continued to work. She's not a lawyer, she does something in sales. But I was like, wow, six kids and you continue to work. And she just looked at me so abruptly and said, you know what? I am not my kids. I am a mother, but it's not all that I am. And I need to maintain that, and that means a lot to me. And I was like, Girl, let's go have coffee. You are my kind of lady. So how did you balance everything? I mean, I know that nothing is ever perfectly balanced, but how did you make it work? I think some people out there are probably teetering on that. Like, maybe they want to have some more kids, but they're worried that they really do love their job, they love everything else. How are they going to get it all done?

[0:29:21] Crystal Ware: So as a very experienced mom, now, how did you make that all work?

[0:29:28] Crystal Ware: Listen, I had a lot of help. My husband is typically home during the day. The kids were going to school, so, I mean, if I had to work late and I couldn't pick someone up, we typically had it set up so that it was never expected that I would be able to pick someone up. So we just kind of worked around that. And I made very clear with my husband before we got married, I intend to have a career. I am not one of these people who is wanting to stay home. That is just not me. I watched my mom stay home her entire life, and that didn't end well for her. So there was absolutely no possibility in the entire world that I was going to be reliant upon a man. It just wasn't going to happen. So going into a marriage with me, knowing that I wanted to have children, he was just going to have to step up and help, period. That was it. So he knew that he's certainly not anywhere near as helpful as I would like for him to be, but he is a heck of a lot better than a lot of people.

[0:30:35] Crystal Ware: I love it.

[0:30:38] Crystal Ware: And then a lot of the time, it's not balanced at all. I'm like running around like a crazy person with my hair on fire. We have a very small village, but we do have people we can call on in an absolute emergency. But really, it's just been Mommy works and I can't be everywhere for everybody all the time and don't expect it. Truly, when I was working in law firms, the kind of expectation for me was that I would be working overnight for the most part, and on weekends, which, looking back, I can't believe I was actually able to do that. Of course, during all of that, I'm still in the mindset of I need to build a mediation practice at some point, so I need to be socializing with people and meeting people. So my last law firm in particular, I was leaving work probably around 233 o'clock every day. I get there around 730, but I leave around 230 or three, and I would go have drinks with whoever, right. This plaintiff's lawyer, this defense attorney, Wheeler, it was. And I kept my social calendar pretty full, and I just went home and worked. And so my office kind of just had to get used to it. That was what I was going to do. And they, thankfully, were fine with that. And so no one was really trying to keep tabs on me. But it did mean that I was spending a lot less time with the children.

[0:32:21] Crystal Ware: And so it was a conscious decision and investment in myself and in my future. I felt very guilty about a lot of it, but I always believed in myself and that it would be worth it, ultimately. And do what was best for my family. And I was right. I ultimately have no regrets there. And I still have these pangs of guilt, but maybe the kids don't get it, but I think that they really do. And I think all of that guilt, it really is self inflicted. I think children are perfectly fine with their parents working. I don't think they love me any less or know me any less than they otherwise would. And it's really cool whenever I'm feeling a little bit bummed out that, oh, mom couldn't do such and such, I'll happen to walk in on my kids, play mediator. That's so cute to me. They know what mommy does and they know mommy is taking care of them. And you work and you get money and I get my things. So I think they get it.

[0:33:47] Crystal Ware: So what is some advice you would have to give people who are struggling with that mom guilt? Because I don't think I've met anybody, anybody working or not working that hasn't had some form of mom guilt. So do you have any tips or tricks for people and how you can kind of set that aside and really focus in on who you are and what you need as a person as well?

[0:34:09] Crystal Ware: Yeah, therapy. It was a lot of therapy. It was a lot of having older women mentors, watching other women do what I was trying to do, seeing how they were able to succeed. And really what I find works best for me is understanding and accepting that I can't always jump and run because they need a reader for the afternoon. That's just not what this mommy can do. I can donate to lots of things. I can have playdates on the weekends. But if you're expecting mom to surprise you at lunch one afternoon, it's just not going to happen. And so I make sure to have surrogates do that kind of stuff for me. My husband will do those things when he can. I'll have some of my girlfriends do it for us. But it was really just I had to accept I couldn't do those things. And I try to make up for it in other ways. And the children, I think they just adapt to whatever it is that they see and you set the expectations for them and be like, okay, mommy really is not ever going to be the surprise mystery reader. Like, that's just not mommy saying, mommy's not doing that not going to be like rude mother.

[0:35:43] Crystal Ware: So don't ever be disappointed that it's not mom who shows up. Mom's not coming.

[0:35:49] Crystal Ware: You know what on room mom, that is something. Oh, gosh, I definitely did for my first son in kindergarten. And I had a sister wife, also a working mom. We were sister wife room moms because I was like, okay, well, we did it together. But I just realized, honestly, Winter, I just realized this is not my jam anyway. This is not filling up my cup. If I want to come to the party at the school, I'll just show up. But I don't get that much enjoyment. I like to plan parties, but I don't really care about planning it at the school. And for those activities, get the moms that really enjoy it. If you love doing it and can make time in your schedule and really want to do it, go for it, girl. Do it. But that's what I always tell people. Just don't feel guilty about it because you see other moms doing it. It's because this is like what they ware meant to do.

[0:36:41] Crystal Ware: They love this. This really revs their engine. If it doesn't do that for you, why even stress about it? That's just what I had to come to terms with. It's like I'm not a bad mom. There's other moms that will do it. They're going to do it better. They're going to have more fun doing it. They're not going to get stressed out. I get stressed out about it because it's something extra and I don't love doing it. Why put that pressure on yourself, right.

[0:37:04] Crystal Ware: I think we need to keep in mind, like it's important to be your authentic self. Because if you're doing these things out of a sense of obligation and you have an attitude because you know you will, your kids ware going to pick up on that. So let me just do the thing that I know that I can do happily and set those expectations as we go.

[0:37:27] Crystal Ware: Absolutely. So what is it? What do you Winter Wheeler think it is to have it all? Because you do.

[0:37:39] Crystal Ware: Oh, wow, man. I had to realize that having it all was going to look different sometimes depending on the day. I wanted the marriage. I wanted the kids and want the career. And I don't want just any career. I want a super successful career and I can't do all of those things well every day simultaneously. So first and foremost, I need to be a good mom. But being a good mom often just kind of involves a lot of planning on the front end for me. So if I can take you to school today, awesome. But don't anticipate mommy is going to be the one who's taking you to school. And see, it still feels weird for me to say it, but I'm not going to do anything that ever jeopardizes my career or where I've put myself because I have worked. I'm going to say I remember being stressed out in pre K because I wanted to be so perfect. So I'm going to say I have worked for 41 years to get here and I'm not going to let anything screw that up. So I get my kids set up. I get them what they need.

[0:39:08] Crystal Ware: I make sure there's food in the house. I make sure the housekeeper is going to come. I make sure somebody's always here with them. But if Mommy needs to dedicate the day to helping a victim resolve a case, that's what Mommy's going to do. Don't call Mommy. And so that's what that day looks like. That's what having it all was for me that day. And then some days Monday for me was one of those work days where it was like, I can't talk to anybody. I got to focus, right? But then yesterday it was a kid day and I focused on them and they really winter to go see the Super Mario Brothers movie. So we got tickets for the first 3D showing and I took the day off and that's what we did. I focused on them. I had a big breakfast for them and all the things, and I will go all in for that. And I didn't even check my email. So that day I felt like Super Mom and I had all of that for that day.

[0:40:14] Crystal Ware: So sometimes I get lucky and I'll finish work early enough to go pick someone up from school and we'll all have dinner together. But I just try to be flexible about what that might look like every day and try not to feel guilty for it. I've had to build some serious boundaries with my clients about what that looks like as well. So I may be the only mediator ever who sends out so many emails. Just kind of preparing people and setting their expectations. One thing that I tell folks is if you want to see me or talk to me the morning before your mediation, you need to set an appointment. So don't anticipate that I'm not going to come running into the building exactly at our start time, because that may very well happen. If I need to do something for my kids in the morning that has to get done, I will be there to start the mediation on time, but I may not be there early for you to talk to. So if you need that, schedule an appointment. So it's really I just continue to set expectations and reinforce the boundaries with everyone all the time.

[0:41:32] Crystal Ware: Communication is so important for ourselves, for our kids, for our spouse, for our work. And that's one of those things that when do we even talk about communication? Until we get to college, we're not really talking or learning about communication other than what we pick up. And let's be honest, our parents were not probably always the best communicating. No, I normally had to get help. Yeah, I mean, that's great. I think that's excellent. I think the more clear you can be with people and explicit and everybody have expectations on the same page, that's the number one way that things go south is like unmet expectations. Like whether it's your kids, your spouse, your clients, whoever. So I love that you do that. I think that's excellent. And whether or not they think emails are excessive. I guarantee you they're clear on what to expect. So that's important.

[0:42:33] Crystal Ware: I hope you weren't looking for me, because I told you not to refer back to the email.

[0:42:40] Crystal Ware: So how did you get this all going? You just literally jumped into entrepreneurship, basically. I liked it and started your own business and then had to get going. How did you do that? Was it overwhelming? Was it scary? How did you find your clients?

[0:43:00] Crystal Ware: It was terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. But I just said, I know that this is what I'm meant to do. This is going to be my full time career. I'm going to be a working mediator. I'm going to work every single day, and that's what's going to happen. And so I just continued to reach out to contacts that I had. I used social media a lot to reach people. Really just kept it pushing, and I would not give up. There's just no way. I mean, I'm a very confident person, so let's just say that there was just no way I was going to fail. That never entered my mind that it wouldn't work. I was afraid that it would take longer than I wanted it to take. And since I didn't have any other source of income, I was definitely a little worried about that. But I knew eventually it would work.

[0:44:05] Crystal Ware: I knew I just had to keep working at it, keep trying. The first, I guess, year, I rarely was at home. Very rarely. If I was at home, I was doing, like, back to back zoom meetings, trying to meet folks. I was just reaching out to people like, hey, I'm new in this business, but I've been in the industry for a long time. Let's have a conversation. Like, what's important to you? How are you selecting mediators? It's kind of getting a lot of feedback from people. You have a positive interaction with someone, and they're likely to tell other people about you. Right. So it was definitely a domino effect, because there's only so many people I can personally talk to anyway. Right. And I did a lot of mailing, oddly enough, just so that people would see me, know my name, be like, oh, I do remember her. I had a case against her, I worked with her, or that kind of a thing.

[0:45:14] Crystal Ware: Just making sure I was top of mind, right. When people were thinking about mediators. I also went way out of my way to do a lot of continuing legal education classes and putting on classes for people and giving them opportunities to learn from me and making it very easy for them to do and handling all of the hey, I'll cover the CLE cost, which is $4 a person. So those were the types of things I did. I made it so that people were drawn into what I was doing so that they would then be drawn to me. So it's hard to get someone to say, oh, I want her to be my mediator and they have no idea who you are, it's not going to happen. So I had to make sure people felt like they knew who I was and that was another reason I did the podcast. And so I would send that link out to folks and they would watch it on YouTube and then that way they're looking at you, they can see you, get a feel for your personality and they really start to think that they know you. Of course they don't, but they have a pretty good idea of what it might be like to sit in a room with you for 8 hours.

[0:46:36] Crystal Ware: Absolutely.

[0:46:38] Crystal Ware: And so that really helped and it really worked. Yeah, I went hard.

[0:46:45] Crystal Ware: And so when you did that, because backing up to what you explained how that went, you went to have the conversation and say, I wanted to start working on my mediation practice with your superiors or partners or whoever at the firm and your intention was to do that. And then they said, no, we don't really like that idea. So you decided, I'm all in, this is what I'm going to do. Did you have kind of like a rainy day fund or was that kind of so quick that you hadn't really thought about what you were going to do if there was a desert period in the income?

[0:47:26] Winter Wheeler: Right? Well, I had savings, I didn't have any credit card debt. I did have the mortgage and of course, at the time my husband's still working. I'm not expecting COVID to put a stop to everything. My husband is a gigging musician, so there was no work for him for a very long time. So that was frightening. So that was, hey, I really do have to make this work and I need to make it work now, what do I need to do? And so we got through that. Thankfully we had a lot of savings, but yeah, it did, it took a lot to get us through it. But really I knew it was going to be worth it. I knew in my heart that that's where I needed to be. It's always been my dream and my goal to be a full time career mediator. I didn't want it as a retirement career, which is what a lot of people do. It's like, oh, I've litigated for 30, 40 years, time to mediate. I'm like, that's not me, that's not what I wanted.

[0:48:40] Winter Wheeler: And frankly, I don't think many of those folks are going to be the best type of mediator they could be. Takes a lot of energy. A lot of energy. And to do this work, I think it is underestimated by a lot of people. Mediation is an art form. It is not simply running numbers back and forth. There is a lot that goes into it. It is hard, exhausting work. So I really don't understand why anybody would want to retire and then start this.

[0:49:13] Crystal Ware: Did you experience any kind of impostor syndrome when you were moving into this or because of what you had done in building up your skills and your arsenal of tools, you felt ready to go?

[0:49:25] Winter Wheeler: I would say imposter syndrome. I did relate to it a bit at first and then kind of worked through that in therapy. Again, another plug for therapy. And I realized you have worked hard, very hard. You know what you're doing. There are plenty of mediocre people running around making making a good living at all types of things. I'm more qualified than your average person. Right. So I just had to work through that and not get bogged down in it. And anytime I was ever nervous or afraid or worried or had any pang of self doubt, it was, lady, suck it up. You can do this. There's no reason you can't do. I know how I did that. I have no idea. It could have just been winter.

[0:50:25] Crystal Ware: You have to make this work because you don't have a job, but that's really what it was. And you don't get a whole lot of fake it till you make it, right? I had a girlfriend say to me one time, she said, I'm an expert at this. Like, I know I am. I'm so good at what I do, but how do I get other people to recognize that in me? And I said, well, you tell them you're the expert. Just say it out loud with your big girl voice. Yeah, that's it. That's what other people do. They hold themselves out as experts, and they get hired. I don't want to make it sound like, oh, it's easy, but there are so many people who would never even dream of saying they're an expert at something, and they clearly are, right? So, yeah, go ahead. Bite the bullet. Say it out loud, and there's no reason believe it. Right.

[0:51:26] Crystal Ware: Exactly. If you don't, no one else will.

[0:51:30] Winter Wheeler: Exactly. And I think that that is more difficult for women than men. I mean, I think women just have a harder time, and I don't think that's so much you and me. I think we're both very competent, very say what it is. Here I am. And that's why I just really want to feed into people, feed into women, that you have something special. Even if I don't know you, I know that everybody has something special some talent, some skill, some expertise. Okay? You have to own it. You have to believe it, and you have to proclaim it and not be afraid to do that. And that is when all the things, all the magic, all the alignment will come together. And what I heard from you, which I just kind of have to summarize here, because I think I really want people to hear and see it and feel it is that what you did was scary. I mean, it's not like you have kids. You have obligations, but because you knew this was your purpose and your passion and your dream, you did it anyway.

[0:52:40] Winter Wheeler: I did.

[0:52:41] Crystal Ware: That does not mean that that's not scary. That doesn't mean that you Winter Wheeler, who are extremely confident, extremely smart, talented, experienced, all those things, yet you still had clear there's still always some little thing back there, some doubt, some nagging feeling. We all have that. But that is what makes the difference, is that you did it anyway, despite those fears, and that you overcame any maybe it wasn't a big amount of self doubt, but whatever self doubt you had, you still overcame it by just doing the thing. And I think sometimes we can say it over and over and over again. I can tell somebody that is kind of a self deprecating type person. I can tell them over and over and over again how wonderful they are, how awesome they are. But until you go out and do something like this for yourself and get that feeling, own that feeling, it sometimes can be hard to believe. So you just have to do it. If you have a big dream, if you have a big goal, if there's something that you know that you should be pursuing in life, do not let it hold you back. I mean, Winter went above and beyond with four children, with a husband, with an alternative career, and just did it because she knew that that's what she was supposed to be doing. And now you are so successful, and you have such a great practice, and you've been featured on TEDx two times. You're in a book. I mean, you're just really living the dream. So I want to give you so many high fives and congratulations and kudos.

[0:54:30] Crystal Ware: I mean, you really are an example for people. And these are the kind of stories that people need to hear more and more often. Because on a picture, on a stage, we look a certain way, we come across a certain way, but we all have similar starting points, to be honest, and we all have similar fears. It's just whether or not you let them hold you back.

[0:54:55] Crystal Ware: Absolutely. Yeah. And even now when listening to you kind of summarize that, I'm like, wow.

[0:55:01] Crystal Ware: You really did do that. I know sometimes you said something earlier about when you're going back to work and all this stuff is going on and kids and you know what? It's the same thing. Even though you're living your dream and you know you're feeling very happy and satisfied with what you're doing every day, we still need to hear it sometimes, like, wow, you're doing a good job. You are crushing it. And I think as moms, you also want to hear that. Like, it's okay to take two tiny baby steps back when you come back from maternity leave or whatever. You can kind of ease back into it. Where we're type A people, our natural inclination is to like go hard. I have to go hard. I'm not keeping up. DA DA. We need to tell the other women around us it's okay and you're doing a good job, right? No matter what.

[0:55:52] Winter Wheeler: Success is what you want.

[0:55:55] Crystal Ware: Absolutely. And you are crushing it. So really, I love it and I've loved to be able to pull this out and for people to hear it because I just think it's going to have a lot of momentum for other people for them to hear and see this. So the last thing I would ask before we close out is whether it relates to building a business career or entrepreneuring. What would you want women to hear? What's the message? Something else that we haven't touched on that you might want people to hear before you sign out.

[0:56:28] Winter Wheeler: Oh, my gosh. I would say try to give yourself as much grace as possible. Give yourself the grace that you know you are giving everyone around you. Don't expect perfection from yourself. I mean, ever, but certainly not on a consistent basis. And I think the best piece of advice that I have ever received is you make the decisions that you make when you make them with the information that you have at the time. Don't second guess yourself. Don't keep looking back. With hindsight, it just will drive you crazy. Make that decision the best you can when you make it and just move forward. Trust yourself. Trust yourself.

[0:57:22] Crystal Ware: I love it. That is great. Solid, timeless advice. And we know that you have kids waiting for you. Thank you for sharing this time after your busy mediation schedule. It has been fantastic talking to you. We'll have show notes on where everybody can find you. Winter, thank you again. And for everybody else, just remember, do it scared. Do it if you don't have the money. Do it if you don't have the time. You find time and you find money and you are able to get over the fear for the things that matter most to you. So ask yourself if it really matters the most if you're not willing to do it scared, put in the time or put in the money. Okay. I know that you're made for more.

[0:58:09] Crystal Ware: Until next time, we'll bring you more wonderful guests. Lots of tips and feedback on how to keep building your dream and helping you get clear. Thanks for listening in. If you loved what you heard, it would mean so much to me if you shared it with your friends. Tag us on social media so we can give you a big shout out. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. If you want more, head on over to the website where you can learn all about what we do to serve and support our entire community. Until next time, keep dreaming big and getting clear. You are made for more so start living like it today.