today we are talking
about pricing.
Getting your pricing
strategy right can make
or break market share.
Great product marketers know
that well executed strategy
doesn't just drive revenue.
It shapes perception,
influences adoption, and can
determine whether your product
wins or loses in the market.
You know, pricing strategy
is one of the most
powerful but very often
overlooked, levers in the
product marketing world.
And that's because in
many companies, pricing
doesn't actually sit
within product marketing.
Sometimes it falls under
finance or product, or
even sales, which means
a lot of pmms don't get
hands-on experience.
But if and when you
need to own pricing,
you need to follow an
expert to do it right.
With that, it is my
pleasure to have n
Nupur Vilas on the show.
I have been enamored
with N Nupur's work
ever since I met her.
Let me tell you why.
Nupur is the current head
of product marketing at a
company called Kustomer.
She is a force to
be reckoned with.
She's best known for
driving AI powered CX
innovation In High impact
go-to market strategies.
She's led game changing
launches at Twilio, you know,
finding powerhouse brands
like Segment and SendGrid,
all while shaping the
company's market architecture.
She's a sought after
speaker at Dreamforce, AWS
reinvent, and Google Next.
N Nupur is a true
leader and mentor in
the PMM world n Nupur.
It is amazing to
have you on the show.
Wow, that's a
glowing introduction.
Thank you so much.
er, I'm so happy to be here.
Of course.
And I actually have a really
funny confession to make
that I don't think I've
ever shared with you before.
So I remember my early days
at Twilio, and this was
before the pandemic, so
everyone was in the office.
So various folks across,
marketing and product
would talk about this
amazing PMM named Nupur.
And I feel like a little
bit of a fan girl right now.
But I remember the first
time like seeing you in an
elevator and it was just you
and me in an elevator, and
I just wanted to meet you.
So I complimented your
jacket as an excuse
to introduce myself,
That's actually
such a funny story.
to be fair, it was
a very cute jacket.
I don't remember this jacket.
I need to go dig
I know.
my closet.
I know.
But in all seriousness, your
reputation precedes you.
And I'm just so excited
to have you here.
So thanks again.
I'm so happy to be here.
it's obviously been lovely
meeting you at Twilio and
working with you at Twilio
and excited to be here and
chat all things pricing.
Let's do it.
Okay.
So diving right in.
tell me first,
what is Kustomer?
Kustomer with a K.
Tell me about it.
Yeah, happy to.
Like El said, I'm Nupur.
I currently lead product
marketing at Kustomer,
customer with a K, as she
said, Kustomer is an AI
powered CX platform that puts
data at the core of everything
we do, and by leading with
that data first approach,
we enable businesses to
deliver customer interactions
that are far more.
Personalized,
proactive and relevant.
And you know, in today's
world, great customer
experience isn't just about
responding to inquiries.
It's all about anticipating
needs earlier and providing
value at every touch point.
And that's what excites me
the most about customer.
We are redefining what's
possible with AI and making
customer service smarter,
faster, and more human.
How exciting AI is all
the buzz right now.
and you hear a lot too,
more specifically about our
world and product marketing.
We hear a lot about how
pmms should be using AI
for things like executing
messaging and positioning,
but, You're talking about
something potentially even
bigger than that, um, and
something that I would argue
impacts customers directly.
So for this first segment
of our show, I wanna start
with a case study of how
you used Market Insights
to transform the pricing
strategy for a customer.
So first, tell me more
about what was going on at
customer when you realized
you needed to transform
the pricing structure.
Happy to.
Well, so as you mentioned,
pricing is something that
pmms typically get to
influence, but not lead.
As you said, sometimes it
lives in operations, product,
or even finance, but in those
very rare cases when product
marketing can play a central
role in pricing, it's, it's
kind of amazing and I was very
fortunate to have been in a
position to be able to drive
that here at customer, but.
Before we get into customer,
let me tell you what we've
observed in the market and
with our Customers as well.
So, You know, as you
said, AI everywhere.
The way we work is changing
And as a product marketer, I
find myself accomplishing so
much more in just hours that
would take days or even weeks.
and the speed is just,
incomparable.
and this shift isn't
just affecting marketing.
it's transforming every
industry and every
department, including customer
experience right now, CX.
Is at that forefront
of disruption.
And with newer and
more advanced AI models
coming out, the level
of personalization and
self-service that businesses
will be able to deliver is
something to closely watch.
But with this transformation
also comes the need
to think about how we.
Price software.
in the past, the
standard approach was
the Salesforce model.
You pay per seat or per
license, and that was the
typical SaaS structure.
But in today's AI driven
world, with so much of CX
being automated and optimized,
you gotta ask yourself, does
that model still make sense?
Sometimes it might,
But in many cases it.
may be time to explore new
pricing models that better
align with the value that
customers actually receive.
Ah.
Okay.
So I want to double down
on something you just said.
You said something about
aligning pricing to value.
So whether or not you consider
the role that AI plays, I'm
gonna guess that anchoring
on value is going to be key.
So tell me more about that.
when you say pricing
models need to align with
value, what does that mean?
Yeah, well, when we rolled
out the outcome based pricing
model where customers only
pay when the platform has
actually helped them, rather
than paying for Licensers
seats that they may or may
not use to their full capacity
through the year, and just
to put it, simply think
about customer experience,
it is a seasonal business.
There will be spikes during
some parts of the year,
like Black Friday or the
December holiday season,
for example, but that's not
gonna be sustained through
the year, and that's why we
think outcome-based pricing
makes sense for businesses.
It's a fair approach where
customers only pay when their
customers receive outcomes.
Aha, outcome-based pricing.
I'm here for it.
no one ever wants to pay
more than what they're using.
okay, so let's say that
I'm a PMM and, I'm inspired
by what you're doing
here, and I decide that I
need to conduct a pricing
transformation for my product.
let's outline the steps
that I or any PMM out
there would need to take.
What's step one?
That's awesome.
So I mean, if anyone
is starting out, it's
really, really simple.
You gotta think about it.
In terms of phases.
There will be four phases.
The first one is discovery.
Then you have research,
design and operationalization.
Happy to talk through
each phase, starting
with discovery.
That's the very first one.
The primary focus during the
discovery phase is defining
the problem that you're trying
to solve, which really starts.
From that point, and for
that, I would really lean
on the leadership team.
You know, having open,
free flowing conversations
with the leadership team
will help everyone gain a
clear understanding of the
challenges at hand, and that
will shape the foundation
of your pricing strategy.
And that phase really
helped us uncover key
factors like internal and
external headwinds risks.
Early hypotheses because the
leadership team has been so
ingrained with pricing and
they've been around since
the start of the company.
And so there's just so much
more in tune with the problem
that they wanna solve.
So it's really important
to getting that clarity
as early as possible.
so I will say the discovery
phase is probably the shortest
phase, but it's also the
most critical one because as
I said, no one has a better
vantage point on the business
than the leadership team.
Yeah, of course.
Okay, so we've got, just
so I am reiterating what
I'm hearing, you have four
phases, discovery, research,
design, and operationalize.
Yep.
Okay.
So helpful.
Okay, so once I do that
discovery work that's
short and sweet in the
beginning, what's involved
with the next phase?
Was it research?
Yes.
step two is research?
and during this phase we
focused on researching
the competition and
surveying our customers.
But we can begin with the
competitive analysis first.
You know, with this
one, you wanna go.
Really, really deep on some
of the emerging players in
the space and understand how
they price their offerings.
And at the same time, you
need to sort of also study
legacy platforms and how
have they traditionally
structured pricing.
So what are some of
the industry norms?
And then I think, here's
another tip, which has
worked really well for us,
which is you also wanna
look at disruptive pricing
strategies, which may
not be in your space, you
know, in the past, like.
Salesforce, obviously,
they set the standard with
license based pricing and the
entire SaaS world followed.
But when it comes to usage
based pricing, companies like
Snowflake, Databricks, Twilio,
they have really led the way.
And so I would say the key is
to move beyond just looking
at your direct competitors.
You also want to study
how successful businesses
across industries charge
their customers, and more
importantly, what's their
unit of measurement for that
work-based or outcome-based
pricing approach.
I love what you said here,
so of course, kind of obvious
you would do some kind of
competitive analysis on
pricing, but this is a really
strong nugget to look at.
Basically, your peers in
the market or those that
you see are also disruptors
from a pricing perspective
and their markets.
I've seen similar strategies
even as, companies
might produce their
earnings reports, right?
They talk, they compare
themselves to some of their
peers in the market from
like maybe a disruption
perspective and consider
similar like units of
measure as you stated.
Such a great idea.
Okay, so where does customer
research then enter the
picture for some of this?
Yeah.
so I mean, you've got your
competitive analysis done,
you've surveyed, other
players in the space that
are disruptors, but now you
wanna take those insights
and validate them with
your real customers and.
What that looked like for
us was serving over 200
CX leaders to understand
their pricing preferences.
Now, these CX leaders weren't
necessarily our customers,
but they were CX leaders.
They could have been
customers of our competitors,
or they might be just
exploring new software.
So it was really everyone.
And we kind of wanted to know
where do they stand on the
different pricing models.
We clearly had an hypothesis.
We knew what competitors
were doing, but where
did they stand and what
was their appetite, uh,
for a new pricing model?
and then if we were to
roll something out, how
long would it take for
them to adopt a new model?
That's always a
big change, right?
Everyone's used to
seed based pricing.
We wanna get a sense of.
When people would be
really ready and, and what
that, you know, phased
approach might look like
in their ideal scenario.
And then you wanna also
get a sense of who are the
key decision makers driving
these pricing decisions.
Very often you think it's
CX leaders, but in in
smaller companies it could
be the CFO or the CEO who's.
The primary person here.
So we wanted to get a
sense of who would be, uh,
the people in the room as
we rolled something out.
and also things like what
are the price points?
Would they be willing
to pay for different
aspects of our platform
for a different features,
for our functionality?
So it's really that
willingness to pay exercise.
And for that you want
to give them a showcase
of all the features and
services that you'll be
offering and, and getting
a sense of how valuable
you think or they think
those features are to them.
Yeah.
Yeah, so discovering customer
insights is one of my
favorite parts of being A PMM.
There's something just really
satisfying about understanding
what makes people tick, why
customers might need or want
something a certain way.
So good, so good.
Okay.
So you did, um, let's say
I've, I've done the discovery,
I've done the research.
what's the next step?
the next step?
is design.
This is where you define what
will go into every package
and how much to charge for it.
And setting clear
guidelines and principles
upfront is critical.
For instance.
You may want a well-structured
upsell path between packages
or a deliberate approach to
how add-ons are introduced.
So.
A deep understanding of your
current costs, such as your
AI expenses, your hosting
fees, or operational overhead.
All of that is very
essential to protect and
optimize your gross margins,
and that is where data
becomes your best friend.
So having someone on the
team with strong analytical
skills will be really,
really invaluable in
making those data-driven
pricing decisions and.
This phase is also where
you wanna determine what
happens when customers
exceed their package limits.
Should they upgrade
to a higher tier plan?
Can they purchase an add-on?
Would a pay as you go model or
an overcharge make more sense?
And so all of these
decisions will directly
impact the flexibility,
scalability, and honestly
the long-term sustainability
of your pricing strategy.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Okay, so wanna back
up for a minute.
How did you determine what
goes into each package?
Did you have any
guiding principles?
Was that like part of
the customer survey?
Where did that come in?
can I just say it
just came to me.
I.
Yes, yes, you can.
Well, honestly, I just
thought about it from a
customer's perspective.
Basically, I asked myself
questions, what would happen
if I finished something
that was allotted to me?
If it was all done,
what would happen?
Would I be able to
purchase more as an add-on?
Would it be an upgrade
to a different package or
would I just be able to
pay a little bit more for
the extra that I used?
So what were my options?
And I wrote it down.
And so when I wrote it down,
I realized that for anything
that had a numerical value
to it, like if a feature
had a numer value, it made
sense to have a prepackaged
add-on with the discounting
available, where the more you
commit to using more, you get
higher discounts essentially.
But to ensure that nobody
faced a disruption in usage,
we always allow for a pay as
you go if somebody exceeds
what they were, allotted
initially in the package.
And then for any
feature that was just.
You know, either you
have it or you don't like
a check mark feature.
Then the goal was to just make
it available in the higher
package and they would have to
upgrade to a higher package.
So new medical values were
available as prepackaged add
onset, you could discount, and
then anything that was a check
mark or not was just, you
gotta buy the higher package.
That was really smart to
bake in the discounting.
'cause I know some, that's
something that sales
likes as a lever to pull
when they're structuring
deals with customers.
Also, can I just say,
this is why you're such
a powerful PMM, you wear
the customer's shoes.
I absolutely love this.
and imagine, or I can't
imagine, I'm not sure if you
did this on your own or if you
did it as a, exercise with PM
or with some of your leaders,
but doing a workshop of.
Let's all wear our
customers shoes together.
how would we dream up
these packages together?
I could see that being a
really strong alignment
exercise to do with
the stakeholders.
And that's exactly
what we did.
I mean, you already
know how to do pricing.
IM learning as we go.
I'm learning as we go.
Okay.
So up to this point, you've
done all the strategy
and foundation work for
the pricing strategy.
Now, how do you
put it into action?
What's the final step?
Yeah.
I mean the final step
operationalization that in
my view is the hardest part
of the entire process because
this is where the pricing
model moves from the theory
to the execution piece.
And so, you know, you gotta
be really cognizant of like.
Limits on features, and
you have to be very careful
that whatever you are,
enforcing is enforced
across every touch point.
So whether it is within
the product or within your
billing systems or on the
website and any documentation,
clarity is everything.
And the same stuff
needs to be reflected
everywhere because yeah.
If there's any ambiguity,
it can lead to customer
confusion, billing disputes,
friction in adoption is
just a,
boy.
Yeah.
we don't want that.
So ensuring everything is
seamlessly aligned will
require medical attention to
detail, and really strong,
strong collaboration across
product, engineering,
finance, and even marketing.
Yeah, I imagine this was
a massive, uh, rollout
across the company, and
you'd have to enable sales.
And in fact, on that note, how
did you enable sales on this?
How did you roll it out
across the entire company?
Yeah, this was a big rollout.
And so enablement, your point
is really the key thing that
you need to achieve here.
so I mean, I'll, I'm gonna go
in a little bit tactical here.
There are several key
assets really that you
want to roll out for this.
Smooth
transition.
Um, you want a
good FAQ document.
It should be a
comprehensive resource.
It should address common
questions, clarify key
details, questions like,
when can I start selling
these new packages?
What is the difference
between the packages?
Just be really, really
clear, and make it
really, really simple.
Um, you want a pricing tool.
It is an interactive tool.
It should help teams quickly
configure and understand
the best pricing options
for their customers.
So what's important to
remember though, when
you're designing these
tools, and I've seen a lot
of ROI calculators, they
can be so complicated.
You want something that's just
five questions or five inputs?
And a beautiful chart,
which shows the output.
So we did that.
We had a streamlined
tool, just five key
inputs, number of seats,
number of conversations,
proposed package add-ons
you want, and that's it.
Uh, okay.
I wanna interrupt
you for a minute.
So you had two, key
assets, probably a bunch
of other assets, but two
key assets for sales.
You had the A Q Doc and
you had this pricing tool,
the interactive tool.
Was that something that's
like, something that a sales
person uses, like a simple
spreadsheet, or is this like
a customer facing tool that
the sales maybe controls it,
but then the customer might
have visibility into it?
Yeah, so this one, well,
we developed it to be
a spreadsheet tool that
was internal and not
customer facing, but
that is the next step.
We do want to put it?
on the website and enable
customers to be able to.
Just send a couple
of key inputs and
see where they land.
So that is the next step
and we are working towards
getting there, but it's
so new right now that we
haven't quite Got that yet.
But good question.
I mean, for now it.
is internal.
but it'll eventually make it
to the website because I think
that's a wonderful way to
boost your demand gen efforts.
I think people
really like that.
okay.
So getting back to
rolling it out to sales.
Yeah.
So other assets, as I
said, two key assets, the
FAQ and the pricing tool,
but other assets being the
pricing one-on-one training.
So a foundational training
session covers everything
that's included in every
package, but more importantly,
real world pricing scenarios.
So you want to have a
hands-on approach so
teams can confidently
assess customer needs and
recommend the right package.
So we designed it so that.
They were, put in these
different scenarios where
they were talking to
different verticals with
different sizes of companies,
and we were like, which
package would you sell?
And so it was like a hands-on
exercise that just forced
them to get familiar with the
pricing and the packaging.
So helpful.
Yeah, And then we had
an objection handling
guide, which again.
Very, very important here.
'cause you know, when you're
rolling out new pricing,
mean, 99.9%, I can tell you
with confidence, you can
expect someone to say it's too
expensive or I only need these
features while we're paying
for these other features
that I don't think I'm
Yeah, anytime there's
like a significant
change, like pricing,
salespeople need to know how
to have those conversations.
exactly.
and then, I mean, they
need a standard talk track.
Should be a
compelling narrative.
Why are you changing
your pricing?
What's the value that
a customer will get?
Is it create a value,
flexibility, alignment
with where they are?
on that messaging piece,
like one thing to note
is that it'll be nuanced.
What you say to an existing
customer will be different
from what you will say to
future customers because with.
Existing customers, you gotta
reassure them that they will
be supported no matter what
with their renewal decisions.
they should know how
the transition will work
'cause they're paying
in a different way.
And now you're telling them
that they might have to change
the way that they pay you.
And for future customers,
it's more forward looking.
That highlights how this will
give them better value, how
it aligns with their modern
CX needs, the flexibility,
and so on and so forth.
Yeah, absolutely.
I could imagine being
a customer and hearing
pricing is changing.
It's good to have
the narrative.
I'm even thinking too,
very recently Netflix had a
price change and the market
did not like how they.
Put that narrative together.
I would say actually I would
say a lack of narrative.
It was very impersonal.
there's lots of chatter across
social media about that.
Uh, so very.
Astute for you to include
the talk track, the narrative
for salespeople to be able
to be able to handle that.
okay.
So you clearly have had a lot
of stakeholders and then you
met, you mentioned this early
on in the discovery phase.
Of this project, I imagine
lots of opinions on pricing,
especially folks like
leadership who have been
there for a long time and know
the customers really well.
So how did you get buy-in
from those folks who maybe
had strong opinion, like
who are the stakeholders?
Oh my God.
Ah.
Well, I like to think
of it as like two phases
of like stakeholders?
and the different people
that you speak to.
So think pre rollout and
post rollout and you know,
let's just separate those
two for a little bit.
on the pre rollout
phase, you wanna have
three different teams.
You want the executive team,
which has the C-E-O-C-T-O
founders, all of those people.
and this group.
They should receive regular
updates on progress,
ensure we're still doing
what they expect of us.
So you want that alignment
at the highest level and you
want a pricing committee.
And so this is a more
focused subset of the
executive team really.
this excludes the CEO and CTO.
We wanna spare them from every
decision, but it still helps
in driving those decisions.
So this role.
this committee really played a
crucial role in reviewing the
recommendations and offering
their insights and shaping
the final pricing proposal.
Like this one had the VP of
Finance and, and he was able
to tell us like, this is what
we are seeing in our deal desk
and, and so on and so forth.
So you wanna have
that smaller team.
and then the pricing
operationalization groups,
so think of this as the
execution focus team.
They're really the ones with
their boots on the ground,
like making things happen.
that last step that
I talked about, the.
Operationalized,
step phase four.
That's where these
people come in.
Um, so this one really has
representation across sales,
customer success, product
marketing, sales enablement,
systems architecture.
I never thought I
would talk to systems
architecture before this.
FPA legal billing, really
every function, Everybody.
everyone needed to implement
pricing successfully
across the organization.
You'd not.
I mean, I never thought there
would be so many implications
across Zuora billing price
Did you have like
info sessions?
Like that's a lot
of stakeholders.
It's a lot of stakeholders.
it was a lot of
alignment and a lot of
time spent on meetings.
But uh, it is what it is.
It is a big initiative
and it really has to happen.
and then the post
rollout, this was
really smart actually.
We have a new, new COO who
recommended that we had a
SWAT team and That's the
way you can actually measure
success and make changes fast.
And so we set some clear goals
around customer adoption of
the new pricing for like a
stipulated amount of time.
And the assembled SWAT
team really is dedicated to
enabling our go-to market
teams to hit those goals.
And so it's more like a one
team, one dream strategy.
And the SWAT team
is basically like.
Okay, this isn't working.
Or we need to change the
positioning a little bit
or like something about
some feature should be
available in every package.
That's the feedback that we
are hearing from the field.
Those sorts of changes
that need to be made
would come back from
the pricing SWAT team.
Got it.
Okay, so then you have
all your stakeholders.
Everybody's caught
up to speed.
Along, I'm assuming all
four phases of the project.
I guess after you launched,
what did this look like from
a customer's perspective?
How did you manage potential
customer objections?
I know you had the,
um, objection handling,
or how did you temper
expectations and like, was
that part of that narrative
that you put together?
Yeah, well, interestingly,
we launched it in a
very, very big way.
It was one of the major
announcements at a high
profile LinkedIn live
event with a website
overhaul and a debut of
our new AI agent offering.
So it was, it was a lot of
force behind this launch.
And so given the
significance, we wanted
to maximize its impact.
So rather than treating it as
a standalone update, we made
it a high visibility event.
But to your point, how do
you manage those customer
objections, you know?
Ahead of time, we made sure
that CX teams were prepared
with the enablement they
needed to talk to customers.
And in fact, those customers
that were nearing renewals
were already aware.
And so they already knew
what was coming at them.
and by the way, we rolled
this out last October,
but we also recognized
that businesses need to
transition at their own pace.
So.
Well, we are very
confident in the model.
We are giving customers
the flexibility to choose
what works best for them.
And it's funny you said
Netflix and their pricing,
but, actually have
a fun analogy here.
You know, just like
Netflix, they didn't move
from DVD rental service
to streaming overnight.
That's not how it went down.
they launched their DVD
business, I think in 1998,
and they introduced streaming,
I think in 2007, but.
To shift to streaming,
um, fully, I think it
was only around 2019.
2020. It's like 20 years.
It was a gradual shift.
Yeah.
It wasn't, it
wasn't overnight.
Nope.
And we expect that to
be the case here as
well, not 20 years.
I do hope not.
But it will be a gradual
shift for customers as
they get comfortable.
And so we are taking
that similar approach.
We are leading with
innovation, while ensuring our
customers can adopt the change
in a way that makes sense for
them along their timeline.
Yeah, what a
great analogy too.
And it really speaks to the
fact that while technology
and the way that we use
and consume technology does
have these huge influences
on even how we procure and
pay for, or the price that
we pay for some of these
services, the innovation
that takes place for that
can happen very rapidly.
But I, our adoption rate.
Maybe a little bit
more of a tail.
So, great parallel there.
okay, so last question for
you, Nupur on this topic.
What advice do you have for
a product marketer who's
trying to transform pricing
for their SaaS product?
Wow.
Pricing is never gonna
be a set it and forget
it kind of thing.
It just has to evolve.
And flexibility is everything.
You don't wanna lock
yourself into a model
that you can't adapt just
because you made a pivot
and you launched something.
So I would say what's
really important is staying
open to feedback and
keeping a pulse on what's
working and what's not.
And making those smart
adjustments along the way,
and that's how you'll build
that pricing model that
will actually work both for
you and the business, but
also for your customers.
Yes.
I love that.
Never said it and forget it.
In fact, we learned
that through the Netflix
example that you gave.
Things happen gradually and
so you gotta keep in touch
with metrics and customer's
perceptions and all of
that that's going on on
a regular basis for sure.
okay, so now I'd like to
switch gears a little bit
and move on to the second
segment of our show today,
the messaging critique.
So this is where we as product
marketers get to analyze
a real world messaging.
But here's the fun part,
npo, you my guest, get
to choose the company.
That we're gonna talk about.
okay.
Before we get started, I
wanna talk through three
things that I wanna focus on.
Just some ground rules about
the messaging critique.
So.
First, I wanna hear something
that you love about the
product or the company
or the messaging, like
what's working really well?
What's, what's standing
out in a positive way?
Second, I wanna hear something
that you wish the PMM
would've done differently.
Maybe something that would've
made the message clearer or
stronger or more impactful.
And then third.
What's a way that the
PMM could iterate or take
it to the next level?
Maybe think more creatively
about campaigns or leverage
voice of the customer,
anything to that matter.
So this is all about
learning, refining our craft.
No negativity.
Just a thoughtful,
constructive critique.
Are
Okay.
Yeah, I got
All right.
great.
Excited.
Okay.
So tell me what
product or company has
caught your attention?
Good, bad.
Somewhere in between.
Oh my god.
Goodbye.
Or Somewhere in between.
That's funny that
you say that.
Have you heard of pure.co?
No.
Okay.
pierre.co.
I'm plugging it into
my browser right now.
Please do that.
Yes.
Let's pull up their website.
have got a warning label.
They should.
they really should.
And I'll tell you why.
So before we get into it, let
me tell you what they are.
You know how GitHub board
reviews, they feel like
they're trying to have a
deep conversation over email.
That's not great.
No.
No one likes that.
engineers don't need
a feed-based social
network for coding.
They need something fast,
collaborative and actually
built for productivity and.
I think that's
where Pure comes in.
It lets engineers take
control of how their code is
reviewed, and it's really, I
think, solving for two biggest
pain points or headaches,
however you wanna call it.
one is setting better
context so your reviewer
isn't guessing what you
wrote and why it's looking
weird in this weird looking
syntax and function.
and then the second one
is managing discussions
so that feedback
doesn't turn into this.
50 comment thread that
nobody wants to read.
It just goes on and on.
And so the way that they
describe it on Y Combinator
is that it took the best parts
of iMessage for organized,
snappy conversations.
Figma for real
time collaboration.
I know we all love Figma and
notion for that structure.
Narrative driven review,
and then they built a
code review tool that
actually makes sense.
Ooh.
Okay, so for listeners,
it's pierre.co.
P-I-E-R-R e.co.
I'm on the website now
I can't even see
their messaging yet.
I guess like my first
impression is warning,
the following experience
may result in permanent
eyesight and or eye
color abnormalities.
If you
think modern code review is
fine as is, turn back Okay.
Before I click further,
before I click further.
They are outlining the
exact challenge that
they're set out to solve.
I mean, you just
said it, right?
Like if, if you think
modern code review is
fine as is, turn back.
yeah.
Well first off, they've
rebranded as the Pure Computer
Company, which I think is
brilliant.
see that.
I see that.
Okay.
Yeah.
that's brilliant.
That's a tongue in cheek
move and it's right
for their audience.
It's got that perfect
mix of nerdy, nostalgic,
and self-aware that makes
you instantly curious.
So that's amazing.
and that homepage,
like absolute goal,
it just grabs your
Okay.
right?
Yeah, I mean, I
haven't clicked it yet.
There's a little spinning
button that says click, at
your own risk or something.
What does it say?
You should click it.
Click it.
Okay.
Clicking,
uh
There you go.
Yeah.
that homepage, it's gold.
It's grabbing your attention.
It's too much.
there's like a static
noise there, eyes like
flowing across the screen.
Bright neon light, not
lights, but like bright
neon text that's just
jumping across the screen.
It feels almost like I took
some kind of psychedelic drug.
Yeah.
Yeah, just keep
scrolling and scrolling.
It's just gonna
keep it in minder.
every section's gonna be more
over the top and honestly, I
just can't stop looking away.
Is that me?
Is something wrong with me?
I.
don't know.
they got me where
they wanted me
Oh, there's more.
it gets more and more
wild as you scroll.
Okay.
Tell me what's working, what
are you liking about how
the PMM took this messaging?
I'll have to say, though, I
can't, it's so distracting.
Once you click into it beyond
the warning label, I'm so
overwhelmed that I'm lost.
I'm like, where do
I, where do I go?
What do I, it's almost
like they're making,
maybe making a statement.
On the problem.
I don't know.
I'm gonna pause.
I'm gonna let you tell me
like what's working, what's,
what are you liking about it?
Yeah, Well, I mean,
that's, the part, Right.
It grabs your
attention immediately.
I mean, and you can't blame
them like they wanted to
shock you and they wanted
to give you that experience,
so they did warn you and
they caught you where
they wanted you to be.
Like, you are there now on
their website and we are
talking about them today.
But you know, there is
like some things I feel
like they could have
done a little bit better.
You know, obviously we
wanna get a clearer picture
of what they're building
'cause they've got us
on their website and we
are talking about it.
But finding that is a bit
of a puzzle, you know.
I wish the site made it
more obvious that they
were creating a better
GitHub, because that
would be a game changer.
You know, I had to piece
that together from other
sources, but it'd be great
if that site just spelled
it out a little bit more.
and that said, this could
just be their shock in office.
You know, they just wanna
set the stage before rolling
out more details, and maybe
that deeper explanation
is gonna come soon.
I mean if you're still on the,
on the side, I would encourage
you to click on docs.
All right.
Okay.
Less overwhelming, more
Let's forward that one.
Yep.
Very clear.
So, I wish the homepage
on Docs had more product
screenshots that would've
pulled me in because
if you click on one of
them, you'll see that
this is more traditional.
I would almost say that
they could skip this extra
docs homepage altogether and
just drop me straight into
a main page with a left hand
menu And I mean, if you're
still on there, you should
also check out their change
log, because that's where
things are are gonna be funny.
I, I would say,
Oh,
yeah.
So they have only
one change log entry.
It's called building a Brand.
Funny that they
are doing that.
You know, traditionally
I would say building a
brand would've been a blog
post, not a change log,
but like, let's be real.
Nothing about this
company is traditional
and I love that
they just own it.
These straight up leave
placeholders instead
of pretending there's
more that's just.
So on Brag for their audience.
Just look at that.
So they're not going
for, you know, the
enterprise button up play.
They're just leaning into
the chaos almost making a
mockery of the usual approach.
that's what the developer
community wants.
They eat that up, they
value authenticity and
Pure has that part nailed.
and by the way.
I don't know if you wanna do
this, but I mean, if you, if
you're feeling wild today,
click on the brand article
there's another warning label.
that's right.
And it says, Warning.
Yes,
see more or you wanna
yes.
I like aggressive
colors and noises.
No, that sounds bad.
Well.
I see click on.
No, that sounds bad because
honestly, I clicked on it
once and I'm not about to
assume this audience is
totally fine with whatever
madness comes next.
I clicked.
I, I clicked.
Yes.
And that was a
immediate mistake.
Yeah, it's just hilarious.
But
It's, they're absolutely
making a mockery
of the current kind
of, uh, status quo.
Absolutely.
exactly.
well, I mean, if I had to
sum up my experience with
peers so far, authenticity
and audience nailed it.
They know exactly who
they're speaking to.
They lean all the way
in, positioning and
competitive differentiation
that needs work.
right now it's all wives.
I'd love to see a
picture of y pure,
especially for new users.
And then.
I would say the user journeys
are a little bit of a maze.
So the shock and
off factor is great.
I love it.
But at some point you want
more, and that's always
not so easy to find.
But for now, this
approach totally works.
They're banking on that
word of mouth and the
developer community to
fuel adoption, which is
I. think, smart led move.
but long term, they'll wanna
make it more clear about
what p actually is, because
Yeah.
I.
with answers, not
just the experience.
I think you're spot on.
I know you mentioned puzzles
and I think that's also
clearly so intentional.
as they scale.
Yeah.
I predict that they're
gonna have some diminishing
returns, so they're gonna
have to, and to your point,
like they, it must be part
of their rollout, right?
Like, I'm sure they plan
on coming, coming out with
something more clearer.
but for now, just
really diving hard
into, the shock value.
Wow.
shout out to Pierre
Pmms out there.
You guys are super,
super creative.
Great job with the
storytelling way to dive into.
Delivering a differentiated
web experience.
Um, super cool.
Okay, so Nupur, before
we go, I just wanna have
a gratitude moment and
say thank you so much for
your willingness to share.
Your knowledge and expertise
on pricing and all things
product marketing, you're
such an inspiration to
me and the PMM community.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
and I wanna turn
it over to you.
What, pmms, maybe one or
two, three pmms have really
inspired you and your work and
made an impact on your career.
Well, Elle, you.
are just far too kind.
I feel like I'm not deserving
of So much kindness, but
I mean, you are such a big
influence on me as well.
You're doing amazing work with
this podcast and, and with
everything that you're doing,
over in your career as well.
if I had to.
Think about people that
I want to extend my, you
know, heartfelt gratitude
to, I would say Charla,
who I think we both know.
She's had a big influence.
you know, she's never
been a direct manager, but
every conversation that
I have with her has just
made me a better manager.
She has this incredible
ability to draw insights
out of me just by asking
the right questions or my
thinking in a new direction.
She's One of the most
insightful people I know,
and then there's Claire by,
she's incredibly sharp and
one of the most impressive
things about her is how
she's built this magnetic
circle of top talent.
People just naturally
gravitate to wherever she
is, and that's not luck.
It's a skill.
and creating that kind
of influence and loyalty
really speaks volumes about
her leadership and impact.
Um, and then finally Sarah
Varney, who was, uh, the CM
of Twilio back in the day.
And she's one of the most
genuinely accessible leaders
I've ever worked with.
People love her,
they adore her.
you know, what's
special about her?
She's really great at
creating lasting memories
for everyone She works with.
Everyone has a special
memory with Sarah, and
that's kind of, you know,
that's a genuine connection.
It's just rare.
likeability matters a lot, and
I think she embodies it in a
way that makes her not just
a great leader, but someone
people truly want to follow.
Yes.
Oh, I could not agree more.
Yes.
And uh, you mentioned
three women who I also
had the privilege of
working with and for, and
I could not agree more.
so amazing.
Yes.
Uh, okay, Nupur, one, one
last question for you.
where else can we
find your expertise?
Is it just best to
follow you on LinkedIn?
Yes, LinkedIn?
for now.
So just hit me up.
We are looking for full stack
product marketers and if
that's something that's of
interest, please reach out.
I'm always happy to chat.
Awesome.
Thank you again, Nupur,
and thank you PMM listeners
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration
to take into your next
step of your journey.