Chris		It's also interesting to testify seven days after your sworn in, because when you're there on the job for seven days, you don't really know too much. And those were the two answers that I had. It's either confidential or I'll get back to you, Congressman. So that's a great way to make both sides of the aisle not too happy with you.
ANNCR		Behind every major policy decision, every corporate strategy, every Washington powerplay. Are the insiders shaping the game and the new rules to win it? The deciders with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Brody Mullins and veteran D.C. strategist Lisa Camooso Miller.
Lisa		This episode of The Deciders is presented by American Edge Project.
Brody		Welcome to the deciders, where we talk to the insiders, rewriting the rules for effective advocacy in Washington. Today we're joined by Chris Pilkerton, the assistant secretary for investment security at the U.S. Treasury Department. Chris, thanks for joining us. Thanks for.
Chris		Having me.
Lisa		Chris, let's start a little bit with your origin story. Can you tell us about the path that led you to your current position?
Chris		So I started off my career, coming out of law school here in D.C., up into the Manhattan District Attorney's office. And I was in the office of the special narcotics prosecutor up there as a D.A.. Was up there for about five years, moved into the money laundering unit, after nine over 11, and focused on frauds and terrorism cases.
		And then made the move to the Securities and Exchange Commission. And I was there in their enforcement division down in D.C. for a few years, private practice for a while. And then I was at JPMorgan Chase, really enjoying it. And then I got a phone call that Linda McMahon, who at the time was SBA administrator, was looking for a general counsel.
		So I went and met with her and just really hit it off. And so looking at all the things that the SBA does, it's a regulator. There's significant litigation. There's a compliance side of the House. So all those things sort of came together. And so I really was just enjoying the experience, you know, working with Secretary McMahon. And then she left in April of 2019, and I was asked to be the acting administrator.
		And you never quite know how long an acting role is going to be. But I was there from April 19th to March of 2020, just as the pandemic was starting. And so at that point, I was asked to go over to the white House to work on the Paycheck Protection Program. And you might remember, during the pandemic, the SBA was really the tip of the spear and PPP.
		And so I spent a lot of time working with the white House, working with Treasury, and then doing a lot of outreach, explaining what the PPE was across so many different verticals and different media. And so then I left the government and was at a community development financial institution for the last few years. And then I got the idea of going back into government when President Trump was reelected.
		I came in thinking I was just going to do a 30 day transition, maybe to sort of help out a little bit. And then when a few days, the Secretary of the Treasury asked me to be the acting general counsel so that I was back in an acting role again. And in June of last year, I was nominated to lead.
		CFIUS was confirmed in December. And that's where I am now.
Brody		Let's go back to talk about the Small Business Administration. After you left because of Covid, the agency quadrupled in size in terms of the amount of effort it was putting into Covid. Was that the right move?
Chris		I think at the time it was, and I'll tell you why. And I had the benefit of looking at PPE. I wrote a book a couple of years ago, about sort of how it worked, what the successes were, what the challenges were. And I think at the time it was absolutely the right thing. It was the way to get money into people's pockets.
		Now, typically you only have about a couple thousand people, not the SBA. And like every government agency, you had people that were working from home, which made it even more difficult because of the pandemic. But then when you factor in the idea that there were people that were probably ready to retire, and I can tell you point blank, dozens of people didn't retire because they wanted to make sure that SBA was able to rise to the moment.
		A lot of it was done because people stayed at the SBA, and you'll never know their names. But quite honestly, it was a really impressive group. I think if you do sort of a calculus and analysis of it, sure. There are things that could have been done better. So, Brody, the short answer is I think, yes, but I think there's lesson learned that we could implement going forward.
Lisa		Chris, what is the role of the Assistant Secretary for Investment Security?
Chris		CFIUS has been around for 50 years, and I know the term doesn't really roll off the tongue, and it's probably not one of the best known acronyms, in DC, but.
Brody		It's not in this room. Yes.
Chris		Well, that's why we're here today. We're going to talk about it. But I will tell you, it's a really important program. CFIUS stands for the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, and it truly is a committee. So the Treasury secretary is the chair of the committee. But then there are nine different agencies around the committee.
		And those are the secretaries themselves. So you've got those agencies and then you have other agencies that are sort of I'll call them consulting agencies, and it's the big agencies, you might imagine. Right. It's commerce, it's war, it's energy. But the process in and of itself is if a company is accepting foreign investment for some kind of acquisition or just an investment, then they file something with CFIUS, just like you would almost any regulatory agency.
		We review it and then we make a determination as to whether there is a risk associated with the case. So you might have a company that holds a lot of, PII or personal data associated with that. So if you have a foreign company or foreign country coming in or a foreign company making an investment, you got to make sure that that data can't go anywhere, can't be compromised.
		Same thing for tech transfer, all these kinds of things. And so we work really closely with a lot of the different countries to ensure that they understand our process. And right now, one of the things that's incredibly important to me is making sure that the private sector understands our process. Right? Because just like we're talking about CFIUS in this room, there's a group of lawyers understand CFIUS, and there's a bunch of big companies that kind of come through the CFIUS process, but not everyone necessarily understands it.
		In fact, when Secretary Besant asked me to take on this role, I said, other than the national security, what is the number one thing for you? And he said, customer service. Because on the business side of things, the president has this thing called the America First investment policy. And this is really sort of, you know, the flagship for what we're doing for an open investment environment.
		The president has made it very clear, and that's part of my job to be able to make that happen.
Lisa		Chris, in layman's terms, can you talk about how CFIUS works?
Chris		Sure. So the one thing I should mention right out of the gate is that all of the cases that we see are confidential. So I can't talk about particular cases, but I can kind of give you an overview of the process. And in a bit of an example, you know, say for example, we see data centers, which obviously is something that's all over the news.
		We have certain jurisdiction where we can look at cases that are close to military bases or critical infrastructure. So if there is a data center that's close to one of those, then we have to be able to review it. Now when we review it, Treasury is always a lead, but we usually have a co-lead. And in that instance maybe it would be the Department of Defense if it's a military base.
		So we would work with them to make a determination that does this particular transaction present any risk, you know, the the kind of data the facility itself, or are they going to be involved in any kind of surveillance, things like that. Like, you really have to sort of put yourself in kind of the mind of a spy, so to speak.
		And that's what the case officer does. And we do that in conjunction with the different agencies and with the intelligence community as well. So that's one risk. What about the energy grid? Right. What's happening there? And how could that impact that community and that area? But fortunately we have the Department of Energy that sits on our committee. And so we work really closely with their subject matter experts.
		And that's one of the best things about CFIUS is that we have subject matter expertise literally across the entire government.
Lisa		You really painting a picture of how government works together? Well, which is something that we don't always talk about here in Washington.
Chris		You know, it's a great point, and it's one of the things that I learned as the acting SBA administrator, because when you're working inside of an agency and this isn't for, you know, any intentional reason, it's really hard to sort of think outside of those walls because you have so much, you know, sort of coming at you from a day to day perspective.
		That experience really helped me work across agencies. Now, when a case goes through the process, you actually finally will have what we call a principals meeting. So secretaries may be in a position to actually meet on the case. And there may be a split between the secretaries. Some may be in support of, some may be against, but the secretaries of the committee don't have the authority to actually block or force a divestiture that ultimately is the president's.
		And that's in statute. So the president has the ability to do that. And when you can't mitigate a national security risk, as you might imagine, the president is put in a position where he has to either block or divest.
Brody		Interesting. Can you tell us that you said that this is about 50 years old? Can you tell us how it evolved?
Chris		I think yeah, I mean, because I think the sizable types of transactions that you would have seen or perhaps heard about, certainly a lot of defense activity, that's where there's going to be a lot of risks, as you might imagine. I think on the technology side, the biggest concerns that we see now are dual use, right. So is there a way to take some technology for commercial purposes, but then all of a sudden that same technology could be used for a second use.
		And that's where working with the O.W. and others has been really helpful. Something that we have developed is called the Investment Screening Technology Initiative. And I released an op ed in Barron's about it, thinking, oh, this is something that's important and hopefully will get some traction. Well, I've gotten a ton of outreach on it, and this is basically the idea.
		So I mentioned before that you have all these amazing subject matter experts across the United States government. What we're doing is we're mapping that entire group to be able to ensure that we have that consistency and continuity. So, for example, we want to know about the subject matter experts at HHS, but we want to know about that person that's an expert in biotech who's sitting, you know, in a basement at NIH.
		The second piece is engaging with universities. So a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now on areas like quantum and I and semi's and hypersonic. And so meeting with them is really critical for us. It's not linked to a particular case, but it allows us to look around corners. I had a gentleman in my office the other day, and he was telling me about a science journal article that they're working on about zebrafish.
		Are you familiar with zebrafish? I was not either, but, a zebrafish is the most efficient swimmer against the current in the ocean. And when they're in their early stages, they're larval stages. They're translucent. So you can actually see what's going on in the wiring in their brain, the firing of the synapses. And you can see how they're making decisions when they swim against the current.
		So Duke University did sort of a digital video of that, and they turned it into a robot. So I'm here in my office and one side of the table, I have a group of scientists on the other side of the table. I have a group of serious national security experts, and this is a fascinating conversation about the zebrafish.
		I turn to the national security team and their immediate reaction was, wait, now we have a potential drone that can go underwater and efficiently swim against the current. So it's fascinating how the science side of things is certainly translating into potential national security risk.
Lisa		Chris, you're also, spending a lot of time helping other countries. Yes. Figuring out how to set up their own investment review programs. Why is that a priority?
Chris		So when people first hear about this, they think, look, we're thinking about U.S. national security. Like, why are you spending time with other countries? But the reality is that there are other countries that we trade with that we invest with. And if they don't have a strong investment screening regime, then basically that becomes sort of a bad vector that someone could take advantage of or compromise our country.
		So we work really closely with the State Department, and we travel the world to be able to sit down and have conversations just like this. So, for example, I was just in Japan a couple of weeks ago. We sat down with the Ministry of Finance, with the diet there, with a number of folks from the private sector, and really just talked about what investment screening is and also how you do it.
		But what's fascinating about this conversation was sort of how do you operationalize it? They were asking about, you know, what do you look for in case officers that are actually reviewing these things? And so they were getting really into the weeds. And so that has been one of the most satisfying parts of the job, to be able to essentially export our expertise in this space, because once again, by securing those relationships and securing those capabilities, we're enhancing our own national security.
Brody		We'll be right back on the deciders.
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Brody		Oh, welcome backto the deciders.
Lisa		In 2025, President Trump and a release see America First investment policy. How does that impact your work now?
Chris		It really is the standard for what we do. So the first thing is we are an open investment environment, right. America is open for business. And that's something we share with private investors, with everyone that we speak to. But a couple other things in there they talked about was ensuring that we have a way to have a fast track associated with this, right.
		Like, it's hard to say you're open for business and then have delay after delay after delay. So we looked at that and we came up with something called the Known Investor Program. And the known investor program is sort of a super due diligence that we're working on right now for parties that are frequent filers very much engaged in service.
		So what this does is it allows us to conduct the due diligence of these companies, these individuals, these funds. So when they file, we already know about them. Right. The known investor. There's a number of other areas that the president focused on. But it's really about pushing forward with getting, you know, funding into the United States and figuring out ways to actually help these businesses and help the economy.
		We have something called the Strategic Vendor Program that we've developed as well. So say you have an investment that comes in the United States. Well, that company may end up utilizing a supply chain from where they came, and that's absolutely fine. But I think what the U.S. government should be doing is taking a look at the landscape across the country to figure out what are their domestic vendors that that company could be using.
		And if they're not, what are we doing about identifying those gaps? So we're working with some of the companies, and we're working with partners at the SBA, with commerce at select USA and the Department of Defense. We're figuring out ways to be able to identify where these gaps are, and then really serve as an economic force multiplier for FDI.
		I think it's going to have a really big effect on communities. And it's exciting. I was on the Hill talking to a senator about it. And he invited me to his home state and already gave me some great ideas. So it's a way to really sort of get the economic message out, because I think, once again, CFIUS isn't a household word, but maybe after today it will be.
Lisa		In addition to those programs, there's another big initiative that you've been talking about, an outbound program. They're calling it Reverse CFIUS. Tell me about.
Chris		That. Sort of. So you've got CFIUS slang now? I'm very impressed at this point. So the outbound program was actually created in a by executive order in 2024. And the way that outbound program works in its current state is it's U.S. investors that are investing in right now. It's in China in three particular areas in I semis and quantum.
		And the idea behind it is when you actually invest in a company, it's not just about the money that you're giving, but you're also potentially giving a network expertise, you know, a human resource, network talent, those kinds of things. And there really wasn't a way within the US government to be able to control that. So we spend a lot of time with, you know, fortune 500 CEOs and their council.
		They come in and really talk through what's happening. It's an important piece. But at the end of 2025, there was a new piece of legislation called the Coins Act that came out. And the Coins Act actually expanded the list of countries, to 5 or 6 countries of concern, but it also expanded the areas of technology. So it's the first three areas, but now it's also hypersonic and supercomputing.
Brody		The role of investment security has changed so much in in recent decades. How do you view both the role of CFIUS and the outbound investment program as part of a broader U.S. foreign policy and, and national security objective?
Chris		Yeah, so I think it's a critical national security objective, because you're really talking about massive investment in the United States, literally trillions of dollars. So it obviously has a very significant impact across the US. But then when you actually get into, you know, the individual states themselves, I know you all have worked with senators and governors, and I love working with governors because they're very competitive.
		So when they hear about a deal or a transaction, they're going to do everything they can. So it really hit sort of at the local level. When you're talking about a person that was able to get a job or keep their job because there was a foreign investment all the way up to the geopolitical level, tariffs and trade.
Brody		Chris, you talk about working with governors. Tell us about your community outreach.
Chris		When I was going through the confirmation process, a lot of the senators who I met with said, look, a lot of my constituents don't necessarily know about services, but they see foreign direct investment that's coming into their communities. They've got questions, and they asked if I'd be willing to come out and speak with them. And that was really sort of an moment for me, because as I said before, it kind of connected the work that I'm doing.
		On the national security and investment front. Right back to the SBA piece. When I was SBA administrator, I had the good fortune to travel the country and really share the message. And so that level of state and local engagement is an important part of what we're trying to do.
Brody		Chris, we ask every guest on the deciders the same three questions.
Chris		Okay, what's.
Lisa		The decision from the past year that you are especially proud of?
Chris		I think it is that concept of the Investment screening technology initiative. It's something that was just an idea that I was talking to the folks in my office about. But I think if we are able to be successful in this, we can really be able to help the nation's, you know, national security portfolio in fascinating ways.
Brody		What's the decision you'd like to do over?
Chris		So it's not a decision that I'd like to do over. But I think it's a decision or a project that I was involved in where I've learned a lot. And I think it goes back to the Paycheck Protection Program. As everyone remembers, it was a fast time. It was a scary time. You know, you were really just trying to put out fires and get money into people's pockets.
		So after I left government, I spent time really thinking about it, engaging with academics about it, and looking at kind of the international perspective and looking at data as to what worked and what didn't. It was very helpful to be able to put all that information down into a book, because while there are different studies or congressional reviews or those kinds of things, I felt that I was in kind of a unique position to be able to assess these things.
		But also make sure that we're prepared going forward.
Lisa		What's one thing that Washington should be thinking about but isn't?
Chris		Oh, boy. There's probably lots of things, but I think, you know, when you pick up the paper, there's a lot of analysis around artificial intelligence and semiconductors, in large part because we're seeing a lot of investment in that space. But there's a lot of different technologies that I think, as a country, we can be talking, you know, more about.
		I've got tremendous colleagues in this government. The folks over at the Office of Science and Technology Policy, Michael Kratsios, they're brilliant people and they're doing amazing work. And I think those are the kinds of conversations that we really need to be having, because at the end of the day, you know, these companies, yeah, they're startups and they're going to hire one person and two people and who knows down the road, maybe they go public.
		But that's really the foundation and the core of what we are as a country. Fascinating.
Brody		Chris, thanks so much for joining us.
Chris		Thank you both. I really enjoyed it.
Lisa		Great to have you. Oh.
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Brody		Oh, welcome back to the deciders. That was Chris Pilkerton. Lisa, what do you think.
Lisa		For as complex a set of issues as Chris oversees every day, he does a really nice job of distilling it in a way that people like myself and yourself can really understand it, and I really appreciate that so much.
Brody		Yeah, and what a tough job. Trying to encourage foreign investment in the United States while protecting national security and then doing it fast in order to continue to encourage foreign investors in the United States. It's a tough job.
Lisa		Absolutely. It's good conversation.
Brody		Thanks for joining us on the Deciders.
ANNCR		The deciders, as hosted by Brody Mullins and Lisa Camooso Miller and produced by Dave Tobey. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Find more online at deciders Dot. Show and follow the deciders on YouTube, LinkedIn and X.