WEBVTT 00:00:02.926 --> 00:00:06.386 Matt Abrahams: The ability to pitch an idea or product well can often mean the 00:00:06.386 --> 00:00:09.026 difference between success and failure. 00:00:09.336 --> 00:00:12.346 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:12.346 --> 00:00:14.256 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:14.536 --> 00:00:19.565 Welcome to this special Rethinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.305 --> 00:00:25.186 When I first met famed pitching guru Guy Kawasaki, I learned so much. 00:00:25.526 --> 00:00:28.645 That's why I wanted to bring Guy's advice back for all of you. 00:00:29.076 --> 00:00:32.565 And since he provided so much value, we're sharing the extended 00:00:32.565 --> 00:00:34.025 version of my conversation. 00:00:34.375 --> 00:00:35.015 Enjoy. 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:41.560 Getting to the point is critical in all communication, but especially 00:00:41.570 --> 00:00:43.390 storytelling and pitching. 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:47.620 My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:47.620 --> 00:00:49.299 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:49.599 --> 00:00:53.059 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:56.089 Today, I'm excited to speak with Guy Kawasaki. 00:00:56.449 --> 00:00:59.779 Guy is a renowned author, speaker, and entrepreneur. 00:01:00.199 --> 00:01:04.199 He was chief evangelist for Apple in the late 1980s and early '90s. 00:01:04.529 --> 00:01:07.430 Currently, Guy works for Canva, which he co-founded. 00:01:07.689 --> 00:01:11.540 He hosts a podcast and has authored many books, including his latest, 00:01:11.570 --> 00:01:15.770 Remarkable: Nine Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference. 00:01:16.279 --> 00:01:20.610 Guy, I had a great time chatting with you on your Remarkable podcast. 00:01:20.619 --> 00:01:21.959 It's such a fun conversation. 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:23.479 I'm looking forward to our conversation here. 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.519 Guy Kawasaki: Well, I hope we can exceed what we did there. 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:27.469 Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you so much. 00:01:27.469 --> 00:01:28.189 Shall we get started? 00:01:28.430 --> 00:01:28.870 Guy Kawasaki: Yes. 00:01:29.539 --> 00:01:31.169 Matt Abrahams: So you wear many hats. 00:01:31.250 --> 00:01:34.949 The one that intrigues me most is your role as chief evangelist. 00:01:34.949 --> 00:01:36.909 You were a chief evangelist at Apple, currently at Canva. 00:01:37.779 --> 00:01:41.749 What does a chief evangelist do, and, and how do you know if you're successful? 00:01:42.069 --> 00:01:46.170 Guy Kawasaki: So it comes from a Greek term that means bringing the good news. 00:01:46.270 --> 00:01:47.829 That's evangelism. 00:01:48.249 --> 00:01:51.370 And so what an evangelist does is bring the good news. 00:01:51.410 --> 00:01:53.329 And so what is good news? 00:01:53.329 --> 00:01:56.410 Good news is when you make the world a better place. 00:01:56.459 --> 00:02:00.179 With Macintosh, we made people more creative and productive. 00:02:00.479 --> 00:02:04.869 With Canva, where I'm chief evangelist now, the good news is that Canva 00:02:04.889 --> 00:02:08.929 has democratized design so that people can be a better communicator. 00:02:09.119 --> 00:02:15.819 So arguably, the chief evangelist is the chief cheerleader of the good news. 00:02:16.169 --> 00:02:20.399 Matt Abrahams: So in that role, you spend a lot of time thinking about what's the 00:02:20.399 --> 00:02:24.579 value that we bring to our clients and our customers, and how do I champion that? 00:02:24.929 --> 00:02:28.759 Guy Kawasaki: To be honest with you, if you are really evangelizing a great 00:02:28.770 --> 00:02:33.089 product, you don't need to spend a lot of time thinking about what the value is. 00:02:33.090 --> 00:02:34.749 It should be very obvious. 00:02:35.209 --> 00:02:39.020 If I had to spend a lot of time thinking about the value of a Macintosh 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:42.869 or a Canva, that kind of says that maybe it's not such good news. 00:02:42.979 --> 00:02:44.839 Good news should be obvious. 00:02:45.499 --> 00:02:48.699 A lot of people tell me, "What's it take to be a great evangelist?" And I'll 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.150 tell them, "90% of it is the product." 00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:53.929 Matt Abrahams: One of the things that I know you're very passionate about, had 00:02:53.929 --> 00:02:57.420 a lot of thoughts on, is storytelling, and I'd love to get your advice and 00:02:57.420 --> 00:03:02.089 guidance for our listeners on how best to craft stories that can be 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:05.530 memorable and actually move people in the direction you want them to go in. 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:07.880 Guy Kawasaki: Well, I can tell you, like, in the last two years, 00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:11.389 there's been something that truly has helped storytellers. 00:03:11.390 --> 00:03:15.279 Um, two years ago or three years ago, you would have to have a very 00:03:15.289 --> 00:03:22.240 broad knowledge of stories, constant reading, constant watching, always on 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.260 the alert looking for good stories. 00:03:24.260 --> 00:03:29.490 You have to be really aware that if you're in an airport and you see somebody throw 00:03:29.490 --> 00:03:31.640 a bag down, and you know what happens. 00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:33.200 And it takes a lot of awareness. 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:38.299 And I think that there's this story about how some, I can't remember 00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:44.049 which hamburger joint did this, but they introduced a third pounder, 00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:48.810 and they wanted to have more sales, obviously, than the quarter pounder. 00:03:48.899 --> 00:03:54.360 But many people thought that because four is bigger than three, a quarter 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.299 pounder is more meat than a third pounder, which mathematically is wrong. 00:03:59.910 --> 00:04:04.509 But it's a great story to use in a speech about being aware and 00:04:04.519 --> 00:04:08.439 not assuming that the audience understands what you're saying. 00:04:08.440 --> 00:04:12.370 I mean, there's a lot of lessons in that story alone, and I think that ChatGPT 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:14.959 would've easily given you that story. 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.759 Matt Abrahams: Part of a good story is finding content that 00:04:17.789 --> 00:04:19.239 resonates and is appropriate. 00:04:19.419 --> 00:04:23.690 When you craft stories, and you are an expert storyteller, when you craft 00:04:23.690 --> 00:04:28.159 a story, what are the things that you are thinking about in terms of the 00:04:28.159 --> 00:04:31.099 sequencing, how you start, how you end? 00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:32.729 What, what's your thought process? 00:04:33.198 --> 00:04:40.948 Guy Kawasaki: It starts with the awareness that you have to entertain your audience. 00:04:40.998 --> 00:04:45.308 I think too many people as speakers, they think, "Oh my God, I need to inform 00:04:45.417 --> 00:04:50.918 my audience, and I need to, like, get my pitch across. I need to get my story 00:04:50.918 --> 00:04:54.817 across. You know, my people are telling me these are the three key points." 00:04:55.037 --> 00:04:59.618 And so what happens is you're working from forward from what you want to do. 00:04:59.657 --> 00:05:04.487 "I wanna get my three ideas across, my three key selling points across." And what 00:05:04.487 --> 00:05:08.887 you have to do is you have to understand that it's not about you, it's about them. 00:05:09.238 --> 00:05:13.167 And if your audience wants to be entertained, which is basically every 00:05:13.187 --> 00:05:18.357 audience, I think if you entertain people, you have a chance of informing them. 00:05:18.808 --> 00:05:22.907 But if you, all you're trying to do is inform them and not entertain 00:05:22.917 --> 00:05:25.477 them, you're not gonna pull it off. 00:05:25.808 --> 00:05:28.677 Matt Abrahams: First and foremost, what I hear you say is that stories are 00:05:28.678 --> 00:05:33.707 natural and lean into just the comfort and natural way in which we tell stories. 00:05:34.257 --> 00:05:38.707 And second, thinking about your job is to engage and entertain the audience, 00:05:38.738 --> 00:05:40.577 and through that you can inform them. 00:05:40.937 --> 00:05:45.887 And deciding the appropriate level of information, a lot of lessons in that 00:05:45.897 --> 00:05:49.727 has to do with reminding yourself what your purpose is, which is to engage and 00:05:49.727 --> 00:05:53.427 entertain, and make sure that you just tell the stories as you normally would. 00:05:53.437 --> 00:05:57.287 Conversation much better than formal presentations. 00:05:57.518 --> 00:06:04.738 Guy Kawasaki: I bet you if we had 100 CEOs or CXOs out there and we said to 00:06:04.738 --> 00:06:09.237 them, "How many of you believe that the top priority in a presentation 00:06:09.238 --> 00:06:12.017 is to entertain?" It'd be like zero. 00:06:12.217 --> 00:06:15.267 Matt Abrahams: Well, just as a personal story on that front, when I was coming up 00:06:15.387 --> 00:06:19.497 in the academic world learning how to be a, a teacher, one of my mentors, recently 00:06:19.497 --> 00:06:23.357 passed away, was Phil Zimbardo, and he pulled me aside and said, "As a professor, 00:06:23.357 --> 00:06:27.057 your job is to transmit knowledge and information, but the way you do that is 00:06:27.058 --> 00:06:30.837 by entertaining. You have to connect, be relevant and engaging, and then the 00:06:30.837 --> 00:06:34.327 students want to learn, and that makes it so much easier." And I think the same 00:06:34.327 --> 00:06:36.317 is true in storytelling and business. 00:06:36.952 --> 00:06:40.822 I want to switch our gears here and talk about a form of storytelling, which is 00:06:40.852 --> 00:06:44.732 pitching, and I know you spend a lot of time coaching people on pitching. 00:06:45.112 --> 00:06:49.892 What is the advice you find yourself giving over and over again about 00:06:49.892 --> 00:06:51.402 what makes for a good pitch? 00:06:51.822 --> 00:06:56.572 Guy Kawasaki: The problem with most pitches, it, it starts off with the 00:06:56.572 --> 00:07:01.781 fundamental idea that the purpose of a pitch is to get a check. 00:07:02.661 --> 00:07:07.521 And so people have this fantasy that I am gonna just use shock and awe. 00:07:07.561 --> 00:07:09.782 This is gonna be Desert Storm three. 00:07:09.841 --> 00:07:12.672 They're gonna just be so shocked and awed, they're gonna ask me 00:07:12.672 --> 00:07:14.761 for wire transfer instructions. 00:07:15.381 --> 00:07:19.131 And right there, you're wrong, and that screws up the rest of 00:07:19.161 --> 00:07:24.071 your pitch because the purpose of a pitch is not to get the money. 00:07:24.541 --> 00:07:30.811 The purpose of a pitch is to stay in the game and not get eliminated. 00:07:31.591 --> 00:07:36.531 So you, as long as you're not a no, you still can be a yes. 00:07:36.751 --> 00:07:40.862 A pitch is a path to the next step, which is due diligence. 00:07:41.061 --> 00:07:44.482 So just don't get eliminated. 00:07:44.491 --> 00:07:45.842 That's problem number one. 00:07:46.221 --> 00:07:50.871 Problem number two is that I think in every entrepreneur's life, they have 00:07:50.872 --> 00:07:55.861 gone to some panel or watched some YouTube video where there's a panel of 00:07:56.162 --> 00:08:02.881 venture capitalists and some moderator who says, "So what do you look for in 00:08:02.881 --> 00:08:07.881 a deal?" And every venture capitalist says, "I look for a world-class 00:08:07.891 --> 00:08:14.401 team with a world-class product in a world-class market." And then the panel 00:08:14.401 --> 00:08:19.001 hosts, they keep going and say, "Yeah, I'm looking for a really great team." 00:08:19.832 --> 00:08:23.902 And we stand by our team, we believes in our team, we stick with our team. 00:08:24.392 --> 00:08:28.332 And so everybody hears this and they think, "Oh my God. So I gotta convince 00:08:28.332 --> 00:08:29.922 them that I have a world-class team." 00:08:29.922 --> 00:08:34.851 So the CEO stands up in this pitch and spends 15 minutes telling his or her 00:08:34.852 --> 00:08:38.881 life history that, "My great-grandfather came over in the Mayflower. 00:08:38.881 --> 00:08:40.432 He landed in Connecticut. 00:08:40.441 --> 00:08:46.122 He created this hardware store which became Ace Hardware, and he made a, a 00:08:46.201 --> 00:08:50.861 ton of money, so he endowed a chair at Dartmouth, and I got into Dartmouth. 00:08:50.861 --> 00:08:54.511 And from Dartmouth I had a summer intern at Goldman Sachs, and the next 00:08:54.511 --> 00:08:56.441 year I had an internship at McKinsey. 00:08:56.721 --> 00:09:00.392 I came out west, I worked for Google, then I worked for Microsoft. 00:09:00.392 --> 00:09:04.701 I took my dot net class." And like 15 minutes later, like, 00:09:04.851 --> 00:09:07.641 "What the hell do you do? 00:09:07.781 --> 00:09:11.061 Is it hardware, software, or whatever?" So what I tell people 00:09:11.061 --> 00:09:12.411 in a pitch is you gotta think. 00:09:12.432 --> 00:09:13.911 There's two kinds of airplanes. 00:09:13.912 --> 00:09:19.501 One airplane is a 787 and the other kind of airplane is a fighter jet. 00:09:19.802 --> 00:09:25.121 So if you're at SFO and you're in a 787, you have two miles of runway. 00:09:25.121 --> 00:09:29.442 You can just go ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. And 1.9 miles later you're up in 00:09:29.442 --> 00:09:31.651 the air and the miracle has occurred. 00:09:32.051 --> 00:09:34.702 Guess what kind of pilot you need to be in a pitch? 00:09:34.702 --> 00:09:37.061 You need to be Tom Cruise, right? 00:09:37.531 --> 00:09:41.592 So in the first 30 seconds you say, "My name is Guy Kawasaki. 00:09:41.592 --> 00:09:42.582 I'm chief evangelist of Canva. 00:09:42.582 --> 00:09:46.391 Canva's a, in the business of democratizing design. 00:09:46.392 --> 00:09:50.201 We're an online design service, so you can create graphics faster 00:09:50.491 --> 00:09:56.151 than you can boot Photoshop." That's the Tom Cruise explanation. 00:09:56.822 --> 00:09:57.241 Matt Abrahams: Two things. 00:09:57.252 --> 00:09:58.191 One, have the right goal. 00:09:58.201 --> 00:10:00.231 The right goal is to just get to the next step. 00:10:00.381 --> 00:10:01.662 It's not to get to the check. 00:10:01.711 --> 00:10:02.591 It's not to get the prize. 00:10:02.591 --> 00:10:03.711 It's just get to the next step. 00:10:03.811 --> 00:10:05.501 And then second, get there quickly. 00:10:05.711 --> 00:10:09.611 It's not about building up all the credibility and explaining everything. 00:10:09.621 --> 00:10:12.921 It's really about what's the value you bring, and get it out quickly. 00:10:13.131 --> 00:10:15.282 I think that's great advice, not just for pitching, but 00:10:15.282 --> 00:10:16.831 for communication in general. 00:10:16.871 --> 00:10:19.661 A lot of people take a long time. 00:10:19.721 --> 00:10:22.201 There's a lot of build-up, and I think that's really important. 00:10:22.561 --> 00:10:25.791 I also think, and I, I believe you believe this too, that a lot of pitching 00:10:25.791 --> 00:10:29.041 is listening to understand what is needed and what's important to people. 00:10:29.081 --> 00:10:31.312 It's not just about coming in and saying all of this. 00:10:31.592 --> 00:10:34.481 The other thing I recommend I'd like to get your opinion on is a 00:10:34.482 --> 00:10:37.391 lot of people create one pitch, and they just deliver that one pitch 00:10:37.391 --> 00:10:39.321 across all different audiences. 00:10:39.331 --> 00:10:40.322 You have to tailor it. 00:10:40.732 --> 00:10:43.661 Guy Kawasaki: After you give the pitch about 20 or 30 times, every 00:10:43.661 --> 00:10:46.661 time you're gonna hear one different thing, and you go back to your 00:10:46.671 --> 00:10:50.101 office and then you make that fix. 00:10:50.668 --> 00:10:55.698 And after you do this 20 or 30 times, you take back your presentation 00:10:55.958 --> 00:10:57.818 and you start from scratch. 00:10:57.868 --> 00:11:02.218 And you let the, the 20 things that you've heard and you're trying to add, somebody 00:11:02.228 --> 00:11:06.318 said, "I wanna know about the patent structure," so you added a patent page. 00:11:06.318 --> 00:11:10.767 And somebody said, "I wanna know about the legal repercussions and trademark 00:11:10.777 --> 00:11:13.117 implications," so you put that page in. 00:11:13.118 --> 00:11:17.668 And then somebody said, "How are you on DEI?" So you put a DEI page in it. 00:11:18.017 --> 00:11:21.458 And pretty soon you've covered every objection, and now 00:11:21.458 --> 00:11:23.127 you're not Tom Cruise anymore. 00:11:23.127 --> 00:11:27.807 Now you are flying a Pan Am 747 cargo jet. 00:11:28.138 --> 00:11:31.277 Matt Abrahams: I think that's really an important point for people to think about. 00:11:31.347 --> 00:11:34.827 If you continually build, change, build, change, build, change, you can end up 00:11:34.827 --> 00:11:36.617 with something that's not what you need. 00:11:36.967 --> 00:11:41.398 And sometimes it's let's just start fresh with the input and information 00:11:41.398 --> 00:11:43.317 that we had learned, and that helps. 00:11:43.357 --> 00:11:48.187 Guy Kawasaki: I think if you think it's hard to get a yes in a pitch, I would 00:11:48.187 --> 00:11:51.538 say it may be even harder to get a no. 00:11:51.577 --> 00:11:55.507 Because the positive way of saying it, it takes someone who's very 00:11:55.608 --> 00:12:03.207 frank and someone who is willing to confront you, and not everybody is. 00:12:03.377 --> 00:12:07.787 And so when people are asked, "Are there any improvements or something?" No one 00:12:08.027 --> 00:12:10.327 except me is gonna say, "You just suck. 00:12:10.407 --> 00:12:14.647 Just get out of my sight." They're gonna say, "I found your story about 00:12:14.837 --> 00:12:20.177 your patent strategy a little missing." 'Cause they wanna have something to say, 00:12:20.187 --> 00:12:23.197 something intelligent as an objection. 00:12:23.768 --> 00:12:26.598 And then you're going to hear that, they say, "Oh, man, if I only had that 00:12:26.668 --> 00:12:30.978 patent thing in a slide, I would've gotten this deal." So you go and add 00:12:30.978 --> 00:12:33.558 the patent thing, and then you're going to have 20 more objections. 00:12:33.558 --> 00:12:34.807 You're going to have 20 more slides. 00:12:35.107 --> 00:12:37.737 Now you have a 30-slide deck. 00:12:37.998 --> 00:12:40.887 Matt Abrahams: So what we really need is to get feedback that's direct. 00:12:40.957 --> 00:12:42.497 Guy Kawasaki: That's so hard. 00:12:42.647 --> 00:12:43.177 Matt Abrahams: It is. 00:12:43.207 --> 00:12:45.958 But if we can find trusted others or those who can give it to 00:12:45.958 --> 00:12:47.087 us, it can make a difference. 00:12:47.308 --> 00:12:50.237 I want to shift gears to even be more specific. 00:12:50.258 --> 00:12:55.378 I know you have very strong beliefs on slides and how slides should be designed. 00:12:55.437 --> 00:12:58.827 You've actually become very famous for your 10, 20, 30 rule. 00:12:58.997 --> 00:13:02.388 I'd love for you to share a little bit about that specific rule, but in terms 00:13:02.388 --> 00:13:06.948 of when you think about slides or things that we add to support our communication, 00:13:07.048 --> 00:13:09.908 how should we be thinking about that to be effective and not distracting? 00:13:10.517 --> 00:13:13.498 Guy Kawasaki: Being a big David Letterman fan, I figured out that 00:13:14.078 --> 00:13:15.887 10 is about the magic number. 00:13:15.918 --> 00:13:20.018 And I would make the case that if you think you need more than 00:13:20.047 --> 00:13:24.648 10 slides to convince someone you have a viable business, that means 00:13:24.657 --> 00:13:26.708 you don't have a viable business. 00:13:26.747 --> 00:13:30.397 Ideally, you could convince people in one or two slides. 00:13:30.887 --> 00:13:36.128 I think the ideal pitch is you have 10 slides ready to roll, but you get to the 00:13:36.137 --> 00:13:41.107 second or third slide and you say, "Would you like a quick demo?" And you start 00:13:41.107 --> 00:13:45.458 a demo, and the next 50 minutes you're talking about the demo and you never get 00:13:45.458 --> 00:13:51.858 to slide 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 because people are so entranced by your demo. 00:13:52.118 --> 00:13:54.037 That's a very good sign. 00:13:54.717 --> 00:13:57.477 So that's kind of where I'm coming from there. 00:13:57.478 --> 00:14:01.767 So anyway, the 10, 20, 30 rule is maximum 10 slides. 00:14:02.097 --> 00:14:04.718 You should be able to give those 10 slides in 20 minutes. 00:14:04.718 --> 00:14:09.817 I mean, there have been like Nobel Prize winners give 18-minute TED Talks. 00:14:09.887 --> 00:14:14.308 I'm giving you two more minutes than them because you're not a Nobel Prize winner. 00:14:14.308 --> 00:14:17.657 But in 20 minutes, you should be able to explain anything. 00:14:17.747 --> 00:14:23.037 And then the 30 points is because I think people use much too small 00:14:23.037 --> 00:14:26.527 a font and they put complete sentences and whole paragraphs. 00:14:26.527 --> 00:14:30.258 And when you put a sentence or a paragraph, it's because you don't 00:14:30.258 --> 00:14:32.207 know your material well enough. 00:14:32.407 --> 00:14:35.637 If you need that much text, you don't really know your 00:14:35.637 --> 00:14:37.417 material, which is your problem. 00:14:37.978 --> 00:14:42.598 So Nancy Duarte, one of my heroes from Duarte Design, she has 00:14:42.598 --> 00:14:44.917 something called the glance test. 00:14:45.816 --> 00:14:51.406 And the way the glance test works is you put up your slide, people glance at 00:14:51.436 --> 00:14:53.946 the slide, and then they look at you. 00:14:54.316 --> 00:14:59.535 And if you put up a slide and they're like, "The strategic focus of my company 00:14:59.546 --> 00:15:05.696 is to enable shareholders to receive a reasonable return on equity while 00:15:05.696 --> 00:15:10.646 enabling employees to self-actualize their goals by providing a patent-pending, 00:15:10.646 --> 00:15:15.436 curve-jumping, paradigm-shifting solution to the problems at hand while 00:15:15.436 --> 00:15:19.726 killing as few whales as possible." And now I'm back to the speaker. 00:15:19.986 --> 00:15:24.255 Steve Jobs' font size was like 190 points. 00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:28.719 You and I, we're not Steve Jobs, so that's why I'm saying 30. 00:15:29.319 --> 00:15:30.380 Matt Abrahams: Ah, interesting. 00:15:30.390 --> 00:15:31.689 Yeah, it's almost a heuristic. 00:15:31.829 --> 00:15:35.520 Yeah, the number of words on a slide implies how, how well-prepared they are. 00:15:35.770 --> 00:15:37.050 So 10, 20, 30. 00:15:37.180 --> 00:15:41.060 10 slides, 20 minutes, 30 size font. 00:15:41.109 --> 00:15:44.079 I often say the mantra should be what's the least amount of information 00:15:44.079 --> 00:15:45.740 I can put on a slide to add value? 00:15:45.839 --> 00:15:48.209 Guy Kawasaki: Again, it comes back to the fundamental question. 00:15:48.319 --> 00:15:51.740 People who put a lot of text on a slide think it's because they're gonna use 00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:54.549 shock and awe to get wiring instructions. 00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:57.149 Again, that's a false assumption. 00:15:57.589 --> 00:16:01.540 Matt Abrahams: So words versus images, do you find images, graphs, charts 00:16:01.649 --> 00:16:05.339 can be as valuable, more valuable than just having words, bullet points? 00:16:05.339 --> 00:16:06.139 What are your thoughts on that? 00:16:06.430 --> 00:16:08.429 Guy Kawasaki: I believe I agree with that. 00:16:08.539 --> 00:16:14.380 However, I would say that the danger here is that, like everything 00:16:14.390 --> 00:16:16.670 else in pitching, less is more. 00:16:17.169 --> 00:16:21.139 And some people think if I put four images up, it's better than three. 00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:24.150 Three is better than two, and two is better than one. 00:16:24.629 --> 00:16:29.890 But you will flunk the glance test because if there's four images like 00:16:29.899 --> 00:16:34.250 dolphin, there's a picture of a seagull, there's a picture of Steve Jobs, 00:16:34.250 --> 00:16:36.709 and there's a picture of the sunset. 00:16:37.079 --> 00:16:38.559 Oh, what were you saying again? 00:16:39.119 --> 00:16:40.109 Matt Abrahams: I'm gonna switch gears. 00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:41.349 You also do what I do. 00:16:41.359 --> 00:16:42.429 You host a podcast. 00:16:42.439 --> 00:16:43.399 It's a great podcast. 00:16:43.410 --> 00:16:44.699 You've had wonderful guests. 00:16:44.929 --> 00:16:47.750 What are one or two things that you have taken away over all those 00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:51.019 interviews that you've done in terms of a learning that you've had or some 00:16:51.020 --> 00:16:52.749 insight that you've gained as a result? 00:16:53.020 --> 00:16:56.119 Guy Kawasaki: I think one of the most, if not the most insight I've 00:16:56.119 --> 00:17:01.499 gained from my podcast is from someone who has an office about a mile from 00:17:01.499 --> 00:17:04.009 here, and her name is Carol Dweck. 00:17:04.520 --> 00:17:09.759 So Carol Dweck wrote the book Mindset, and it's all about the growth mindset. 00:17:09.829 --> 00:17:13.080 You can have a growth mindset and believe you can learn new skills 00:17:13.080 --> 00:17:16.979 and do new things, or you can have a fixed mindset and believe you can't. 00:17:17.459 --> 00:17:20.829 And that was a fundamental book in my life that, you know, yeah, 00:17:20.929 --> 00:17:25.479 I wanna be on the right side of that dichotomy, and everybody who's 00:17:25.489 --> 00:17:27.670 remarkable has a growth mindset. 00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:31.209 There's nobody with a fixed mindset who's been remarkable. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.710 Matt Abrahams: Carol's work is really important because a, a lot 00:17:34.710 --> 00:17:37.689 of people get locked into that fixed mindset and they limit themselves. 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.509 Guy Kawasaki: Carol Dweck's work was great as it is, and then Mary Murphy 00:17:41.509 --> 00:17:46.859 just put the icing on the cake because Mary Murphy's insight is, yes, a growth 00:17:46.889 --> 00:17:49.620 mindset is primarily in your head. 00:17:49.820 --> 00:17:53.489 But if you have a growth mindset in your head, but you're in an 00:17:53.499 --> 00:17:57.572 organization that has a fixed mindset, it ain't going to work. 00:17:57.581 --> 00:18:01.572 So you need to have a growth mindset in a growth mindset 00:18:01.581 --> 00:18:04.252 organization for it to be optimal. 00:18:04.372 --> 00:18:07.752 I think even Carol would say that was a brilliant insight 00:18:07.752 --> 00:18:09.621 that added to her theories. 00:18:09.931 --> 00:18:12.662 Matt Abrahams: Before we end, I like to ask all my guests three questions. 00:18:12.662 --> 00:18:15.522 One I make up just for you, and one is similar across all. 00:18:15.522 --> 00:18:16.152 You ready for that? 00:18:16.161 --> 00:18:16.922 Guy Kawasaki: Fire away. 00:18:17.112 --> 00:18:19.022 Matt Abrahams: I know you have a passion for surfing. 00:18:19.321 --> 00:18:25.612 I'm curious, how do you use that passion to help you be better at what you do? 00:18:25.641 --> 00:18:29.131 I think all of us should have some kind of physical activity that we use or 00:18:29.131 --> 00:18:30.932 have that helps us focus and channel. 00:18:30.932 --> 00:18:33.401 I'm curious, why surfing and what does it do for you? 00:18:33.581 --> 00:18:36.821 Guy Kawasaki: Surfing is not a means to an end. 00:18:36.962 --> 00:18:38.631 It is the end in itself. 00:18:39.438 --> 00:18:42.528 So if you said to somebody, "Why do you do CrossFit?" They will 00:18:42.528 --> 00:18:44.268 say, "I wanna be in fitness. 00:18:44.298 --> 00:18:45.738 I wanna lose weight," or whatever. 00:18:45.738 --> 00:18:47.038 Um, why do I surf? 00:18:47.058 --> 00:18:50.428 Because I simply love surfing. 00:18:50.728 --> 00:18:52.278 It's not a means to an end. 00:18:52.287 --> 00:18:53.558 It's the end itself. 00:18:53.568 --> 00:18:54.668 So that's number one. 00:18:55.398 --> 00:19:00.388 And what I love about surfing, and I started at 60, which is 55 years too late. 00:19:00.388 --> 00:19:01.617 I started at 60. 00:19:01.977 --> 00:19:06.938 Surfing is the most difficult thing I have ever tried to learn 00:19:06.938 --> 00:19:09.197 because there are so many variables. 00:19:09.198 --> 00:19:13.528 There's the water, the speed of the wave, the direction of the wave, the 00:19:13.528 --> 00:19:19.147 shape of the wave, the other people in the water, the reef, the kelp, the wind, 00:19:19.307 --> 00:19:25.757 the tide, and it is both anaerobic and aerobic, and it requires great balance. 00:19:25.798 --> 00:19:30.678 And you're out in the ocean at dawn, and it is like surfing is 00:19:30.678 --> 00:19:32.927 the most fun you can have legally. 00:19:33.118 --> 00:19:35.437 Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that it's something you're passionate about, and I 00:19:35.438 --> 00:19:37.187 love that you took it on later in life. 00:19:37.668 --> 00:19:39.438 Let me ask you question number two. 00:19:39.848 --> 00:19:42.608 Who is a communicator that you admire, and why? 00:19:42.927 --> 00:19:45.517 Guy Kawasaki: There's nobody you could admire more than Steve Jobs. 00:19:45.707 --> 00:19:49.638 I saw him speak several times or many times actually, and he had 00:19:49.638 --> 00:19:52.038 such a way of telling a story. 00:19:52.518 --> 00:19:54.578 Talk about passing the glance test. 00:19:54.647 --> 00:19:57.667 You could look at his slide for half a second and come back to him. 00:19:57.768 --> 00:19:59.148 He could really do a demo. 00:19:59.148 --> 00:20:04.087 He had a sense of timing and pace and, you know, he could sense when the audience, 00:20:04.088 --> 00:20:05.857 you know, wanted to hear this or that. 00:20:05.997 --> 00:20:07.657 He was truly magical. 00:20:07.847 --> 00:20:11.887 I think it's kind of like the story that if you hear that Michael Jordan or Kobe 00:20:11.887 --> 00:20:17.178 Bryant always took more free throws than anybody else on the team, you would say 00:20:17.217 --> 00:20:20.207 Kobe and Michael are naturally endowed. 00:20:20.217 --> 00:20:22.887 Why did they have to take more practice shots? 00:20:23.048 --> 00:20:24.377 I don't know which comes first. 00:20:24.397 --> 00:20:28.337 If you're naturally endowed, you practice more, or you practice more so 00:20:28.337 --> 00:20:29.977 people think you're naturally endowed. 00:20:30.027 --> 00:20:34.488 But addition to the growth mindset is the work of Angela Duckworth, 00:20:34.607 --> 00:20:36.397 which is the grit mindset. 00:20:37.037 --> 00:20:40.887 And I would say that the flip side of the growth mindset is the grit mindset 00:20:40.897 --> 00:20:44.127 because if you're gonna grow, you're gonna face failure, so you need to 00:20:44.127 --> 00:20:46.747 persevere in failure, which is grit. 00:20:47.567 --> 00:20:48.867 Matt Abrahams: Final question for you, Guy. 00:20:49.387 --> 00:20:54.668 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:55.188 --> 00:21:00.817 Guy Kawasaki: I will tell you that the most important thing is, duh, you have 00:21:00.817 --> 00:21:07.167 to have something to say because not everybody has something to say when they 00:21:07.167 --> 00:21:09.618 try to create a communication strategy. 00:21:10.117 --> 00:21:11.887 So you need to have something to say. 00:21:12.128 --> 00:21:15.357 And, you know, at an extreme example, I talk to a lot of people and they 00:21:15.357 --> 00:21:18.417 say, "I wanna write a book." And I say, "Why do you wanna write a book?" 00:21:18.427 --> 00:21:22.757 He say, "Well, I wanna position myself as a thought leader and a visionary, 00:21:22.757 --> 00:21:24.568 and I wanna build credibility. 00:21:24.568 --> 00:21:26.057 I wanna increase consulting. 00:21:26.057 --> 00:21:27.337 I wanna increase speaking. 00:21:27.337 --> 00:21:30.717 That's why I wanna write a book." You write your book when you have 00:21:30.717 --> 00:21:35.337 something to say, not because it's gonna help position you. 00:21:35.577 --> 00:21:38.176 So I, I think that's the number one thing. 00:21:38.246 --> 00:21:41.226 That's 95% of the battle. 00:21:41.226 --> 00:21:43.206 You have something to say. 00:21:43.576 --> 00:21:46.235 Matt Abrahams: And I heard you say earlier that making sure that it's 00:21:46.316 --> 00:21:49.546 entertaining and engaging and that it's relevant to the audience. 00:21:49.546 --> 00:21:51.506 When we were talking about pitching, you talked about that. 00:21:51.546 --> 00:21:54.856 And I think, but first and foremost, you have to have something important to say. 00:21:55.335 --> 00:21:56.446 And certainly, Guy, you did. 00:21:56.456 --> 00:21:59.705 You shared with us many concepts that I think are really important. 00:22:00.026 --> 00:22:01.526 Be present for your audience. 00:22:01.815 --> 00:22:04.126 Tell the story as naturally as you can. 00:22:04.385 --> 00:22:07.955 Make sure that when you use slides, that there's a purpose to those slides 00:22:07.955 --> 00:22:09.565 and you're not just throwing a lot in. 00:22:09.906 --> 00:22:14.885 And an important point also is be willing to start fresh, to start new, And that's 00:22:14.885 --> 00:22:16.765 a really important lesson I need to take. 00:22:17.055 --> 00:22:17.875 Thank you for your time. 00:22:17.925 --> 00:22:19.055 Guy Kawasaki: My pleasure. 00:22:20.425 --> 00:22:21.235 Matt Abrahams: Well, there you have it. 00:22:21.625 --> 00:22:23.455 Pitch perfect every time. 00:22:23.815 --> 00:22:27.395 Thank you for joining us for this extended Rethinks episode.