[00:00:00] Henk: Philips is a 20 billion almost company. We have almost 80,000 employees, almost 3000 marketers. So of course, things don't move always as fast as you want them. I think the pirate mindset, especially in the early days, it was really all about, uh, rewriting rules. Uh, rewriting the system basically from the inside. [00:00:17] And of course they have a reputation, but I see them more as rebels. [00:00:22] And with rebels, uh, it doesn't mean being difficult or being against the established order. I think many companies have very unwritten rules or processes, even tools they have been using for a long time. Also, nobody really questions it. They say, yeah, that's just how it is in our company. And I really, I have a mindset, uh, of I don't accept these things and I really look for opportunities in my role to influence and to challenge that and do it differently. it's almost like mutiny as a movement, but in smaller controlled steps [00:00:50] ​ [00:01:17] In This Episode --- [00:01:17] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Hank head of Global MarTech at Phillips. In this episode, we explore embracing the digital pirate mindset in MarTech why clean data is the real treasure map for ai, rethinking MarTech as people tech, where MarTech should report in the organization, and how to elevate MarTech teams beyond button, pushing all that and a bunch more stuff after super record from two of our awesome partners. [00:01:42] ​ [00:03:39] Phil: Just a quick disclaimer that the views and opinions expressed by Henk in this episode are his own and do not necessarily reflect the official position of Philips. [00:03:46] Henk, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time. [00:03:50] Henk: I feel it's such a pleasure to be a part of your podcast, and I have to say that I listen to your, uh, podcast a lot. I feel like I know you quite well already, Phil. I've heard [00:04:00] your voice so often, and, uh, yeah, I just want to say thank you for bringing all these people in, sharing these stories. We all try our best right? [00:04:06] To make sense of all the technology and everything, uh, that comes along with it. And, uh, yeah, I just love to hear the stories of other people. And it also, you always see that we have actually more in common than we are part, right? So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, every episode brings me a lot of, uh, inspiration, insights, uh, in this COO community or that we call MarTech. [00:04:24] So, uh, thanks. [00:04:26] Phil: Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that. I appreciate that. I see a lot of folks say that as well. Like they hear other people's stories and they're like, oh, I'm not the only one that's dealing with that thing at work. Like I'm not alone in this tiny world. I feel alone sometimes in my company 'cause I'm the only person wearing that hat. [00:04:42] But then I listen to the show and someone at SoundCloud and someone at this company is dealing the same stuff. So it's like, uh, our little echo chamber is, is bigger than we think. [00:04:51] Henk: Yeah, exactly. I, I can concur with that. And it's, it's also feel that, I think a lot of people feel something a bit alone in the company, but it, we'll get to the career advice question [00:05:00] probably a bit later, but it's all about connecting with community, like-minded people, et cetera. You can say. Communities, you mention it sometimes. [00:05:07] Uh, there's so much to learn from others Really. [00:05:10] Phil: Yeah. [00:05:11] 1. Embracing the Digital Pirate Mindset in Martech --- [00:05:11] Phil: One thing that folks love to do in in marketing ops or in MarTech and our little ego chamber is assign characters or like symbols to their job profiles. Uh, some folks say like marketing ops. People are wizards. Like that's the one I've heard the most frequently. I've heard maestros or mechanics or janitors. [00:05:29] Uh, I kinda like air traffic controller, but none of these kind of really feel super right. When I first heard you mention this idea of digital pirates, I was immediately intrigued and, and wanted to start the conversation by diving into that a little bit. You've leaned into the digital pirate mindset in your MarTech role at Phillips, kind of breaking the rules, rewriting the system from the inside, like being a pirate in the Navy, so to speak. [00:05:54] I love the energy and, and kind of describes my mandate from MarTech really. Well, maybe we can start by just like chatting [00:06:00] about where did this analogy come from? Maybe explain, um, the birth of that for you. [00:06:04] Henk: Definitely. So, uh, it's also not something that I made up. It's something that I have to think. Uh, my previous manager, his name is Robert. You're listening, this is for you. But thank you for, uh, yeah, bringing in that digital pirate mindset. Uh, he was inspired actually, uh, by the book, be More Pirate. I would definitely recommend it to, to read as well by everybody. [00:06:25] And I think it's also good to start with a bit of a history on pirates and what it means actually for me to be a pirate because it could also have a bit of a negative connotation of course. I think the pirate mindset, especially in the early days, it was really all about, uh, rewriting rules. Uh, rewriting the system basically from the inside. [00:06:44] Uh, therefore being at the forefront of innovation, eh, and uh, actually for them that meant quite progressive thinking. I think it was something 1500, something like that. So even social change, equal pay on the ship, emancipation, you know, all these things were part of it. So they were very progressive. [00:07:00] And of course they have a reputation, but I see them more as rebels. [00:07:04] And with rebels, uh, it doesn't mean being difficult or being against the established order. People could think that as well, especially in the company. I think you're, you stated, well, how can you be a pirate in the navy versus a pirate next to the navy? Right. You need to be a pirate in the navy, in the big modest ship. [00:07:21] But um, yeah, for me it's very much about not taking things for granted as they are. And I think many companies have very unwritten rules or processes, even tools they have been using for a long time. Also, nobody really questions it. It is just, it's like that. And, uh, onboarding a vendor for example, I think I've seen some statistic that some, for some companies it still takes six to 12 to 18 months. [00:07:42] Right? Um, translating the whole content enablement, it gets stuck for weeks or even months sometimes, right. It really hampers your go to market. And sometimes we talk about it with people they kind of love the way. They say, yeah, that's just how it is in our company. And I really, I have a [00:08:00] mindset, uh, of I don't accept these things and I really look for opportunities in my role to influence and to challenge that and do it differently. [00:08:07] And of course, you can't do it that no alone. You need to enable others also to do it, uh, do it differently. And it should be also, I really believe in self-service also there. And, uh, me in my role as a MarTech leader, a program leader, uh, a connector, and they're challenger. As I think I'm really uniquely positioned there. [00:08:26] Also, I am, and others are in a role because have a lot of data and insights also and in the tools that we manage. So everything we say can be data driven. If someone tells me, uh, translation in a local market takes, uh, three months, I'm saying something, I can actually show that it takes 10 days or 15 days, 20 days. [00:08:44] You know, the data talks there and yeah, I think, I think being a digital pirate is also very much about finding, uh, like-minded people. Uh, people are not afraid to change who actually embrace change. 'cause you really need that, especially in the current time. And, uh, yeah, actually my, [00:09:00] my background is in startups, but also in Phillips. [00:09:02] I started in sales, uh, where I moved to marketing. And I think also something a, around sales, and I've heard it in your podcast before, you need to be entrepreneurial, but it's very much about the customer. It's a tough job also, eh, sometimes I think especially in bigger orgs, in conversations that we have. [00:09:18] We tend to lose also the customer in some of our conversations, you know, and, uh, yeah, like I said, the world is changing. Customers ask for different approach and experienced them before and really at a faster rate. And, uh, when marketing, I think before was really about, uh, education more, uh, or self-promotion, I mean, than more about education. [00:09:38] And I think we now go really into how can you be, uh, authentic and authenticity in this whole AI world, you know? So yeah. It's also kind of a next marketing 3.0 that started. I think that's where the pirate code comes in very well, is the challenge that status quo, uh, innovated the margins of uh, what is the accept that are golden rules here of business. [00:09:59] Uh, break [00:10:00] free for part of the central governance to search an ID, that their rules become really mainstream. And I think it's also about reeducating kind of the established systems and people also have, 'cause in general leadership has been around for a longer time. So they're also used to different setup, different ways of working, et cetera. [00:10:17] So take them along and they really appreciate it also. So it's almost like mutiny as a movement, but in smaller controlled steps and, uh, of course only where it makes sense and where you can, eh, uh, we, as Philip, especially at my current role, we work really in a highly regulated, uh, environment also. [00:10:36] Industry and I live by these rules, uh, made them my own. Uh, I want my team also to really understand them and live by them. And we are very close actually as part of our role as MarTech. You're close to many teams. Yeah. Also the quality, regulatory, legal, compliance team. And you can't go wrong there really. [00:10:52] 'cause it'll bite you. And, uh, I think, I think field also in the pirate culture, you really need to have radical [00:11:00] transparency. I really believe in this. And openness to, to ideas. People need to feel safe to speak up, try things, feel, et cetera. And, uh, yeah, I believe we make big decisions really together as a team where possible. [00:11:13] And, uh, I hold really little information, uh, for myself. Sometimes I'm oversharing, which is also not good. But, uh, yeah, I try to share as much with the team, uh, uh, as I can. And I think that's also pirate culture. And of course, I'm the captain of the MarTech ship, uh, together with, uh, a great colleague, uh, who's, who's also head, co-head and kind of this team. [00:11:32] And there's space to, to bring in, uh, ideas, uh, make decisions, et cetera. And in the end, I hope always, and that's how I approach a job, also, that the team can stand on their own feet. [00:11:43] And I'm not needed anymore in a way, you know, in the day to day. So I can focus on other things, maybe more strategic things. [00:11:49] You will always find a new role, opportunity, I think, with the background that we have. And, um, one thing I would like to add there, that I think something that's really overlooked in technology and the field that we [00:12:00] work in. Storytelling and doing really good storytelling. And, uh, I think due to maybe the background or the nature of who we are from, from a interest in, in technology platforms, you know, uh, data. [00:12:14] We are not the best storytellers, though. We are co sales marketers. Right. But maybe we're not the best storytellers, but, uh, yeah, if, if you want others to join you, right. Um. And technology, I think is sometimes seen also as kind of boring still or difficult to song you. You're really to embrace it and it, it is really exciting. [00:12:32] I think also, you know, technology and, uh, I'm happy also to see with the rise of ai, self serves, self-service, et cetera. Like I mentioned before, it actually gets less and less techy for a lot of people who work day to day with these tools. So, yeah, uh, uh, I, I really think, uh, it's, it's, it's a mindset. It's a way of doing. [00:12:51] And yeah. Translating that to Philip also to make it a bit more practical. Yeah. Uh, Philips is a 20 billion almost turnover company. We have almost [00:13:00] 80,000 employees, almost 3000 marketers. So of course, things don't move always as fast as you want them. And, uh, what we did as a team, uh, uh, digital pro programs and MarTech team is basically we set three pillars at the beginning of 2024. [00:13:14] Where we looked at how much time do we actually spend on business enablement? How much time do we spend actually on internal operations, and how much time do we actually spend on education or enablement? And it was actually quite shocking that after some months we saw that around 60, 70% of all we did was spent on internal operations. [00:13:33] So away from the customer, right? I think a great insight aside. And yeah, we, we've tried to change that also, also with, with data driven some ceremonies, et cetera, and I'm happy to see that, say that it was quite successful where we now spend around 60% actually on the business and with the business and all that internal operations, sometimes very experienced product owners. [00:13:56] They, they're not fit for certain jobs. You can just hire someone [00:14:00] else to do it. You know, maybe you pay too much money even for a certain job. You know, so it's all, it's also about the biking, such a kind of choices. And we even rebranded our product owners to platform managers where they're really kind of, uh, internal consultants. [00:14:14] Uh, capability builders, uh, technology challenges I would call it who help even in business case creation, strategic strategic planning. They educate and enable and are really business partners and seen as business partners in their domains Also. And of course next to that they also mention, manage a platform or a system, eh, the backlog, they work with it, development teams, et cetera. [00:14:36] But it's less at the forefront and they enjoy their work. Also way more. 'cause it's not only about, uh, getting a ticket, uh, building something, uh, making it ready. Enjoy their work way more. And I have to say that we, we also became very more impactful. So, uh, yeah, I, I think, uh, we've been successful there. [00:14:52] And, um, you, you see the same trend happening in other organizations as well, who, who kind of grow from out of startup, you know, scale up, et cetera, [00:15:00] are very, they make decisions in the past. They're very decentral. They want to centralize, they see that's also not working here. For Phillips, it's the same. We, we, we had a very big digital team of two people. [00:15:12] We also saw we needed to change. 'cause because there was a huge marketing sales disconnect. Uh, things didn't take, took a long time to get through the pipes. Uh, um, also you had a very strong center of excellence, kind of from a global perspective. But, uh, yeah, people in the, on the local side, they, they didn't have enough knowledge, you know, so something needed to change and I see that often happening. [00:15:32] That's when you get a bit to Yeah. More local autonomy or, or more kind of a federated model. [00:15:37] Phil: Super cool. I really appreciate the, the detail in, in, in your analogy there. I think it's, it's something that a lot of startup folks will feel, uh, a connection to. But I think you're all the stories within Phillips and, and the massive enterprise that you have there and, and, and all the stories about that. [00:15:54] I think, uh, it, it relates to both startup folks and, and, and big enterprise teams. I think my [00:16:00] favorite part of the analogy is like, like you said, there's, there's like a bad connotation to pirates. Like they're like thieves and their, like chasing treasures. But there's also kind of like a rebel analogy to it. [00:16:11] And my favorite part of the analogy is like. The treasure idea to it. Like o often associated with pirates, like [00:16:18] 2. Why Clean Data Is the Real Treasure Map for AI in Marketing Ops --- [00:16:18] Phil: we in marketing operations and like the MarTech teams, like we know where the real treasure is. It's not in like chasing shiny new tools and, and the rise of ai. Like not, not everything is, you know, worth chasing and, and trying. [00:16:32] Um, the real treasure is in clean data and measurable impact and systems that actually help companies scale. Um. I've asked this to a couple folks recently, like, do you think the greatest thing that AI has ever done for MarTech folks is to finally have a reason to get the CEO or the C-level folks to give a crap about clean data? [00:16:53] Henk: I definitely feel definitely. Again, uh, where we are seen as [00:17:00] technologists, I believe everybody, marketers, people, and sales, everybody in the company becomes a technologist [00:17:07] in a way. Even the CEO. And if you, if you talk about ai, of course, the, the, I think there's always three use cases, eh, it's, it's all about automation. [00:17:16] Uh, it's all about optimization, but also the whole data analytics, insights, et cetera. But behind that, you need to have good data in the data, in indeed. I think also before you can even have a conversation around clean data, it's a little bit the same as, uh, I am sure a lot of people, uh, in large corporates as well, they've asked, they've had people come to them. [00:17:36] I need a CDP for example. That's a very business misunderstood term, by the way. But I think the only way to do that well is to, to slice it up, basically to show some promising use cases, eh, talking, CEO, eh, that they, they need some impactful stories they need to have, uh, at the end of the quarter to show what we have delivered. [00:17:56] So it's also about slicing it up. And [00:18:00] then ba, the slices to make the ben bigger hole, bigger thing a whole basically. And um, yeah, based on what I, uh, I mentioned uh, before as well, that if you don't have your MarTech lifecycle in order, I think it's very hard to have that conversation also. And that's about integrations. [00:18:19] That's about many things. And, um, also you need to apply some rules. You know, that, especially in the large corporate, if you don't have some rules around data standards around your, uh, content systems per se, perhaps your taxonomies, et cetera, all these things, yeah, it's very, it's, it's very hard to set it ai, ai, ai, uh, well, in a way where, especially in the future, I think still at the moment, it's still very practical use cases that we, that we use at three relapses, but. [00:18:48] If you really want to be ready for the future, you need to have that conversation. Definitely. [00:18:53] Phil: Yeah, you mentioned CDP there, uh, and I feel like the, the CDP category is the easiest way to [00:19:00] think about composability and, and speed when we talk about. Architecting, um, MarTech stack together, and I know we're both fans of, of composability and like building modular stacks. Uh, when you have the right team to support it, you know, there, there are certain areas where it doesn't always make sense when you don't have a data team that's dedicated to marketing. [00:19:20] Uh, but [00:19:20] 3. Why Composable Martech Stacks Work in High Seas Regulated Enterprises --- [00:19:20] Phil: you kinda explain this idea of renting use cases instead of buying or building whole systems, especially with like AI accelerating some of the modular tools like you just mentioned. What's, what's like. I personally think it's a really cool way of thinking about it. Like composability, one of the best arguments is the flexibility not being locked into a single data model, a single, you know, platform, so to speak. [00:19:43] How do you enable that kind of agility at the scale of Phillips that, that you're operating in without sacrificing things that are obviously super important to the regulated industry you're in, like governance and data integrity and, and all the different regions that, that you're servicing? What are your thoughts there?[00:20:00] [00:20:00] Henk: I think it's a great, it's a great question and maybe, maybe one step back had that, if you look at an kind of end-to-end MarTech lifecycle, I call it the cradle to grave, uh, uh, process of lifecycle internally in Phillips. And what we did, we went really deep on what actually does it take to write features, to onboard, to, uh, build and in the end adopt and, uh, uh, contain improvement and decommission. [00:20:26] What are the steps involved there and are actually the teams ready to, to. Take on what you have just bought or what you are plugging in, or new features you want to bring in, et cetera. Because in the end, it's not about the technology. No, it's about the people who have to use this technology day to day. [00:20:42] And I think that's also often forgotten that we buy tech for certain use case, so we can. Reach our customer in a different way. We can have certain insights. We, we can, uh, have a better experience. Whatever, you know, is, is part of that business case that you've, that you've built. But we oftentimes also forget that there needs to be someone in our [00:21:00] organization who actually needs to do the work with that tool, with the various tools that we have and, and make something of it. [00:21:05] You know, so we, we really look at from, from kind of these four pillars, Hey, you onboard, you build and deploy you, you adopt and you do continuous improvement and you decommission. It means something else for bigger platforms than for smaller platforms, of course. And uh, also in terms of, of budgeting, where previously we had all the budget. [00:21:26] Now it's with kind of the local businesses. We have around 16 businesses in Philips. And if a business doesn't use e-com channels 'cause of the nature of the business, they don't have to pay for it as well. You know, we, we got rid of, of yearly a OP cycles. We still have them for the big investments. But you can also, uh, uh, request money on a almost two weekly basis and I think always related to, uh, uh, platforms or tools. [00:21:52] And to go back, go back to your question and feel, for me, there's always two que, two, three options Basically you can do as global. [00:22:00] You can challenge the global setup or you do it yourself. That's it. You know? And then if you do it yourself, then make all the, sure your team is there to cater for it. Take the example of CRM. [00:22:14] Um, we have, we use HubSpot, we use Salesforce, we use Eloqua, all three. And it's a choice. You know, it just makes sense for certain places, but it needs to be a choice. Otherwise we get in that whole discussion of, shared of it or, or does it customize whatever, Hey, it actually brings us money, you know? Uh, we have one instance of our CMS 'cause it makes sense, but teams can manage it in a different way because the nature of their business, uh uh, asked that basically. [00:22:41] uh, yeah, to, to talk about, uh, uh, then the, the whole data model behind it, et cetera. You have, of course, we have our conversations there as well, but it's, it's, uh, it's all about, uh, transparency also, uh, giving people access, uh, the keys to the castle or to the pirate ship in a way. Yeah. So they can learn actually how, what tools to, what is [00:23:00] the data models behind, you know, let them play with it without breaking it for them Also to have an opinionated discussion. [00:23:06] Because, uh, yeah, like I said before, also that I think the, the, the magic happens, uh, locally, not from a global side. You know, I have a certain role where I manage certain global platforms. The magic happens locally where actually the, like I said before, the, the regions or the, the local markets, they own actually the customer experience and what does it mean for my role. [00:23:26] So that, of course, I'm a MarTech leader. But you could also call me kind of a customer or people technology leader. I'm a bit lost lately, even how I would call my own role. Uh, we can get, uh, towards that question later. 'cause I'm sure you have something for me there, Phil, to explain that. But we work with marketing, with sales, with services, with products, with, with it, with procurement. [00:23:48] You know, we work with the whole organization, econ, we work with, with uh, uh, demand planning, with supply planning. You know, all these, all these capabilities are stakeholders. And yeah, of course I [00:24:00] manage a team also, but it's all about, uh, uh, through the end-to-end revenue cycle. Make sure it fits together, it works together, and to get it through seamlessly. [00:24:08] And, uh, yeah, I think it's also, we, it's very important that if we don't restrict ourselves purely by a scope or a team, I should, for example, not have only marketing in mind, Ising brand, but also downstream impact of customers. Of course. Uh, businesses own the products and solutions we sell and, uh, I hope to enable them and make their life hopefully a bit easier so that they have end the knowledge in case can make the right decisions. [00:24:31] 'cause they will not take my word for it alone. [00:24:35] 4. Rethinking Martech as People Tech --- [00:24:35] Phil: You've said that the term MarTech no longer really captures the scope of what we do today. You think that customer tech or people tech feels a bit more broader and, and more human-centered? I'm all for terms that sound more inclusive, but you know, not just for the sake of doing a rebrand, like we love doing as, as marketers. [00:24:56] Um, we create enough new terms in marketing that like we don't need to. [00:25:00] Change stuff that's, that's finally well understood. What about like revenue, technology? Does it even matter what we call it? Like we finally have people knowing that like MarTech is marketing technology and technology that markets, it helps you market. [00:25:15] Your company isn't just for marketing, it's for a revenue driving organization. It's for growth. Like we have tech, we have marketers. The tech helps. Marketers do cool shit. Thus we have MarTech, um. So like my question is like, marketing isn't just top of funnel marketing and growth have always been about full funnel lifecycle retention, engagement, upsell. [00:25:36] Like there's a lot of collaboration with CS and sales like you've men mentioned in, in your role at Phillips, but it's still marketing at the end of the day. Like why do you think we need to change the name MarTech? [00:25:47] Henk: Yeah, I love that question. I can debate about this for a long time, I'm sure, but I, I, I, I agree with you. I think first the name doesn't necessarily matter if you talk MarTech and they know what you mean, but for me it's [00:26:00] almost to go back in platforms, term platform terms, almost like a good or bad user interface. [00:26:06] It can be quite restrictive, uh, if you know what I mean. And if I got a dollar for every time that we, with, with stakeholders that we thought we were talking about the same topic, I'll be very rich. I think think of topics like I I, I like a CDP a content enablement, CRM, I think based on people's background. [00:26:26] Uh, uh, they have different connotations and also based on their professions or roles they have, they have different connotations, uh, uh, there as well. And, uh, yeah, I, I, like I said, I, I just think it can be restrictive and I hope we can find a way also, uh, to scope it not to be kind of a catch all or nothing term or something. [00:26:45] And I think marketing technology has been a lot about technology, though the world is changing. And I see actually made a shift happening also with the pressure on marketing to show the customer impact, to show the revenue, the benefit, the impact, and [00:27:00] it's actually people inside, so the employees and outside, and the customers and people that use or consume that technology. [00:27:06] If you go to your website, you consume technology as a customer, though you might not know it. In the end, your customers don't care if your MarTech or, or, uh, your sellers don't care in your company. Your systems, your platforms don't care if who owns it or, or if it's part of MarTech or whatever. And I like to call it people tech also, because, because, uh, yeah, we more than often forget the users, the employees that, uh, that use IT tech to create this wonderful experience. [00:27:33] I think it makes it more inclusive also. Um, I think MarTech covers the load. I find it, uh, also harder and harder to define it myself. What's in scope? Is it digital? Is it marketing? And sometimes when I speak at conferences, I joke that, uh, the most used MarTech tool is still PowerPoint, which I believe in in large enterprises. [00:27:55] And if I, if I would say, should I have a say in it? [00:28:00] Probably not. I don't care though the companies like Conva for example, maybe I should have a say in it. 'cause an awful lot of time of marketeers goes to in, goes to filling PowerPoints as well, [00:28:12] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:28:12] Henk: So yeah, maybe I can help them improve. Maybe I can help them make it easier or better. [00:28:17] So I really believe that MarTech is entering a new phase or a new chapter where the focus on tools isn't the right fund, it's not about the tech. It never should have been. It's all about the enablement family. Basically you create with the right process and people to create the best experience and yeah, there, I think core or fundamental is also that market. [00:28:37] MarTech doesn't own marketing or campaigns. I think what we do own is really the architecture of the experience, and that's how I see it. There, for example, take your eStore or your e-commerce. Yeah, which is significant for Philip and for our team, eh, we are also p and l co-responsible for what happens there. [00:28:56] And we don't do over a billion in sales there. If we [00:29:00] get certain insights, uh, people, uh, add to carpet, they don't buy, you know, these kind of data insights we bring back to our e-commerce managers and actually we sell more. So we are also very much p and l responsible as a technology team in a way or co-responsible, how would you say it? [00:29:15] And, uh, yeah, I, I, I really believe that it's changing and even the way you manage your MarTech or your technology can be a competitive advantage. I think if you're still, like I said before, or it takes you still six to 12 months to onboard your tech if it still takes you. Months to get to a conclusive set of requirements and you have still these vendor conversations with all these demos and you take them for granted and, and when you implement it, you think, shit, actually this is not what we bought or what, what we wanted to have. [00:29:42] You know? I think if you still don't know what features in your stack drive the most revenue. Uh, I, I think you really have a problem and, uh, you have a hard time keeping up in today's, uh, world and staying relevant. So I believe there your technical burden will harm you. So I would like to step away a bit [00:30:00] out of that technical kind of platform domain and get a bit more into the business domain. [00:30:06] 'cause I think that's the future. And there we're also really well positioned in our roles 'cause we have the knowledge of it, of the, of the background, of the technology and how it works and how to implement something. Because, yeah, I'm sure you as well, Phil. Sometimes when a user asks something, they think it's easier. [00:30:22] Switch off a button though. You know what's behind. Sometimes they ask also very, something very difficult. And especially with with the rise of AI and things we can do there, you can deliver it in the day. And they're also surprised, you know? So yeah, taking them along and educated, but I think we're very well positioned there. [00:30:35] Basic. [00:30:36] ​ [00:32:40] Phil: I really dig your like, reframing of like, we don't own campaigns, we own the architecture of the experience and that involves way more than, than just the tech. [00:32:50] Uh, for me it's almost like a reframing of like [00:32:51] 5. Elevating Martech Teams Beyond Button Pushing --- [00:32:51] Phil: what marketing ops and MarTech pros. our never ending battle with like elevating the role beyond like we're just people that are pressing, send a button in Eloqua to send an email where like we manage MarTech tools, marketing ops builds and maintains all the systems, the workflows, the logic to ensure. [00:33:10] The customer interaction, the people experience of that is consistent, timely, and scalable and, and they make sure the experience works across all these tools and channels. Um, is that part of like where you're coming from there? What are your thoughts there? [00:33:24] Henk: I totally, totally agree and I, I, again, like I said, I think two things I want to mention there that I would challenge your listeners, go to those people that are not in your tech team, that are maybe product owners or you think of our tech heavy, et cetera. They will be so happy to think along with. In how to, uh, enable certain business, increase the, make the experience better, whatever. [00:33:48] 'cause they end have the technical knowledge and maybe you need to educate them a little bit from a business side, right? But once you do that, you can have such a great conversation together. And what's the benefit also for, for example, a [00:34:00] marketeer, uh, take an a BM marketeer, whatever. I'm, I'm just calling out a role that they will become more technical, understand decisions better the, the technical person or the product owner will understand the business better. [00:34:10] You know, so it's really a win-win also where I'm sure they will be so happy to, to collaborate also. And it's not only a technical person. And I think also that what, what. Technology team does, is that we ensure that what people dream can become reality. At least we try, you know, people dream a lot. We try to slice it off also always a little bit to make it, uh, practical and make it happen. [00:34:33] But that's what we do. And I'm also really happy there to see that it becomes more and more self-service. Like I said before, that where I've, I've, I foresee everybody becoming technologists. Uh, everybody knows, uh, in the past it took like five weeks or two months, whatever, to build a, a website. It took, it took a large tech team and an awful lot of money to, to build a website basically. [00:34:57] And now, uh, anybody, uh, with a bit [00:35:00] of knowledge can, can make it happen in a matter of minutes. Now with, with AI or uh, hours if you go in the tools yourself and you add the right content, et cetera, and, uh, yeah, uh, everybody becomes the technologies in the program. Language is English probably, you know. So, uh, yeah, I, I think we also really have a job where it's hard to see what our efforts bring and what it takes to keep the ecosystem working, basically. [00:35:24] And in conversations on cost reductions, rationalizations that we have in marketing, but also on the tech side, of course, uh, often, um. I often think I don't do, let's pull the plug of the system for 20 minutes and you will see how many people will call you. You know, I never dare to do do it, but sometimes you need a bit of a crisis also to show the work of some of these teams, you know, and what they mean for the business and, and what it brings for the business in, in bottom line also, or you're connected with the customer. [00:35:51] Phil: Yeah, it's a very digital pirate mentality. [00:35:54] Henk: I never dared Phil, but uh, who know? I've thought about it. I'm sure it crossed the mind of many people, [00:36:00] but yeah, I see, I see it really changing that, that also as a tech team, we really have a seed on the table. Um, uh, there's almost no discussion that. Technology and technology teams are not part of the equation, and I'm, I'm being pulled in all kind of conversations and actually happy, uh, that I don't, don't need to beg for attention. [00:36:17] Right. When you're, when you're a seller. Previously my role of a seller, that was very different. Tough job. Now, also tough job, but more about where do you say no to and yes to. And, uh, yeah, you, you mentioned about what's the difference with people, hr actually, we also have conversations with our HR teams of how we set up our technology in a certain way. [00:36:35] 'cause they also are starting to use more hr, more technology in terms of recruitment, et cetera, et cetera. You know, so your knowledge is also transferrable and very scalable, et cetera. And so I, I think that's how we can stay really relevant also. And, uh, one thing there, uh, I do believe is your internal setup really matters. [00:36:55] Who do you report to? Uh, who owns the tech actually, uh, who makes the decisions, et [00:37:00] cetera. And, um, uh, yeah. Uh, there you also have to build a bit your own, uh, um, uh, network for, first of all, but also also get really some high level XC, X sponsor and, and buy into your thinking, et cetera. Otherwise, it's very hard to get things done. [00:37:14] Phil: Yeah, let, let's dig into that actually, like my, [00:37:16] 6. Where Martech Should Report in the Organization --- [00:37:16] Phil: my co-host Teryl, who's not hosting with me today because, uh, a time zone challenges, uh, been a bit too early for him, but he recently posted on LinkedIn. Um, he's got a huge audience and he posts like a quick poll and he is got like, at the a thousand people, uh, voting on it so he can get like a quick pulse of where things kind of stand on certain questions. [00:37:34] And he recently asked. Uh, pulled his audience, like, where should the MarTech team sit in, in an organ in, in an organization, you got over 150 votes, uh, 850 votes already. Overwhelmingly, 56% of people said the marketing team, interestingly, 26%. So over a quarter of people have, you know, transitioned to thinking revenue operations [00:38:00] centrally should own MarTech. [00:38:01] There's a lot of different answers to, like, some folks think GTM systems should own MarTech, it should own MarTech. Small number of folks picked other, and I dived into the other section to see if there were like some, some hot thoughts there. And, and one of the comments, uh, from Mark and other is finance or the CFO. [00:38:20] And his argument was like, reporting into the CFO is better for MarTech and better for everyone. And because you. Basically are part of a political powerhouse, like finance holds more political power than any other department in the company, and it's hard to work with finance right now when you're not in finance, but when you're in the finance behemoth or like mothership, whatever, like things can go a bit faster. [00:38:46] I've personally never seen this. Before like MarTech reporting into the CFO, you've actually argued that when MarTech reports into finance, it becomes a budget debate instead of an experience or growth [00:39:00] debate or conversation, where do you think MarTech should report to? [00:39:04] Henk: I love this question 'cause I'm very passionate about this topic and I love the examples you share also. And I would, first, I would like two things. First, I would like to say in the end, reporting lines doesn't matter 'cause they in exist in your org but it's always you make of it yourself. [00:39:18] Of [00:39:18] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:20] Henk: Uh, secondly. Not all. MarTech is the same. MarTech if I talk about a small tool, uh, who do some, uh, search engine optimization, whatever can be fine, uh, managed by the business, uh, bought by the business, et cetera. You know, I think where Daryl's question also really much relate to is what about about this kind of bigger application, the ones that cost, uh, a lot more money. [00:39:43] The ones where you have longer contracts in place, et cetera. And for me, the way to answer that question is that I really think there's a distinct between what the CFO wants, needs and the CEO wants, needs. Um, we have it reporting into the CFO [00:40:00] to the IT team our team, the marketing technology team. So we own the platforms from a business side. [00:40:06] They own the platforms from an IT side. Uh, uh, where it, I think has a way better, uh, way of working around how do you keep some of these pla platforms current? How do you deal with all the, uh, regulatory, uh, all the, uh, I dunno, changes from a, from an architectural point of view, you know, all these things, they've, they're, they're way better, uh, position to manage all that. [00:40:28] So for some of these platforms, it really makes sense that they own. The technology, they make decisions on the technology. You don't be changing out your, your P system or whatever, your subsystem or whatever, you know, uh, no, that that needs to be managed by it. But I think especially for those platforms, take for our team what we manage here, our CRM or e-comm or web CMS, um, content toolings, et cetera, there should always be a business in the lead business in the driver's seat business understanding of why they pay a certain amount of [00:41:00] money for a certain tool. [00:41:01] And what benefit it drives. And, uh, there I think a really key distinct between C-E-O-C-F-O is, uh, a quote I, uh, presented on as well, but it is basically of Rory Sutherland. He said that, uh, a missed opportunity doesn't show up on your balance sheet. And I love that because it's so easy to cut tools and save money. [00:41:24] But oftentimes two things happen. Of course, you have, uh, less spent, you know, that's the first thing you see. But oftentimes we need to hire more people. There's probably more chaos 'cause the tool did something, you know. Uh uh, and also it takes a lot of time to ramp up a new tool. You know, you said there's a lot of other costs involved that you don't immediately see back. [00:41:44] And um, yeah. Also, again, I think you can't spend enough on tech as long as you have your business cases in order. And if you don't only use that business case as kind of an entry ticket. Uh, and enter ticket to the amusement park and never look at it again. They make [00:42:00] sure you have that livestock in order. [00:42:01] Make sure you, you, you, you manage it, you you set some KPIs and that means something else for a two oh $500, then a 2 0 5 K, then a tool of of, of a hundred K or more, you know? So, uh, yeah. Again, I think reporting lines should not matter. Um, as long as, as the business understands, uh, what it is that we have, why we have it, and uh, uh, yeah, basically together with it, we make certain and decisions, but it really depends on the capability as well. [00:42:29] There, Phil? [00:42:30] Phil: Yeah. Yeah, your answer was really good. And it wasn't like a simple, like a Well it depends because obviously it depends, like a lot of folks in the comments were like, there should be a pivot on this poll based on company size and based on industry, based on if they're B2B or if they're B2C. 'cause those are different conversations too. [00:42:50] Um, but I loved your point about it's so easy to cut. Tools to save money, but a lost opportunity doesn't show up on a balance sheet. Uh, [00:42:58] 7. Unlocking Innovation Through the Long Tail of Martech --- [00:42:58] Phil: you've actually admitted to one's cutting long tail tools too aggressively. Now with AI and kind of no-code tools, you see that long tail has a bit more of a goldmine. [00:43:10] Uh, I'd love to have you just like unpack what you mean by long tail. Scott Brinker actually calls it hyper tail, like custom tools and niche solutions powering crazy innovation. Do you think enterprises still undervalue the edge cases of MarTech or rev tech or are we finally kinda waking up to the idea that control kills experimentation? [00:43:32] Henk: I love that question as well, and that, like I said, early on in my career, I thought I could. [00:43:37] Safe or make money by cutting some of these smaller tools out. But actually, where should all my attention go is to these tools that actually cost a lot of money and generate a lot of impact. You know, it can also be a tool that doesn't cost a lot of money, but generates a lot of impact. But I want to be on that side of the equation. [00:43:53] And if I spent all my time, uh, uh, cutting tools and I save maybe a hundred K. Yeah, did did I did. Is there [00:44:00] really a benefit, yes or no? I don't think so. And also I think at that time we were really focused also on kind of the, the, the systems of, you have the system of record differentiation and innovation. [00:44:10] Right. I, I liked that that spread also where the focus was really on systems of record also. And everything around it is shadow it. And yeah, we need, we need to have a say in it. We need to kill it. We need to do something with it. 'cause it's not controlled, you know, ICXC, something else happen. And I think in the future it'll be different. [00:44:27] Two things. I'm really annoyed also that so many people struggle with implementing some of these core, uh, capabilities like proper C-D-C-D-P, proper, uh, CRM, proper content management tools, everything still enablement, everything around it. Really don't get how we can still pay so much money, how everybody keeps trying to do the right thing themselves. [00:44:51] And there's another company who just offers that with some adaptions based on your business needs. Right. But the core should be kind of the same. And [00:45:00] uh, even for bigger vendors. 'cause that's also, we, we recently onboarded an account based marketing tool. Uh, I saw a movie last time as well, uh uh, where someone recreated some of the Salesforce functionalities with all kind of small applications, right? [00:45:14] I love that. I dunno if it's a challenger yet or not. No clue. But at least it could mimic some of these features. So it's also bigger vendors aware, right? Systems of records beware, or some things need to be in place there. But related to the example of account based marketing, we wrote our requirements, we went to the bigger vendors, and then we were really at the cross section. [00:45:33] We would go for the bigger vendor. Or do we look at the requirements and really look at that long tail, right? The smaller applications, and can we puzzle it together ourselves? Uh, 'cause it of course, has many benefits. You're not stuck to a very expensive vendor. You can iterate if something new, new comes up in today's world, that goes extremely fast. [00:45:51] Yeah. I'm even amazed every day when I wake up, I read the news. I think, wow, did that happen when I sleep? Right. E everything goes so fast. It's, it's even hard for me to, to, [00:46:00] to, to keep up with, with all the changes that happening in the market and often with a bigger vendor, it's harder to change. You need to add on something which also cost again, money, which, where you need to have bridged conversations, et cetera, et cetera. [00:46:10] We, in the end, decided to go for the bigger vendor 'cause we didn't only buy the tag, we also bought some expertise. We bought some reference costs. You know, you buy a lot of other things as well. But yeah, definitely I, again, like I said before, the few, you need to have your core in order. But for me, the future is focusing on the long tail. [00:46:26] All the smaller applications, either if you buy them or you build, you know, that's not go into that discussion, but it'll be easier to build something and it'll be easier to get a benefit from it closest to your customer, very local. 'cause again. Me from a global side, I dunno what your customer, uh, needs. [00:46:44] You know, I can build the big, tell you the big picture. Build the big picture. I dunno what your local customer needs. It's, it's the same as asking me to translate your website in the Mandarin. I would not have a clue. You know, I'm just a global guy who manages the global tools and, and again, from a [00:47:00] local enablement perspective, if these people become more into tech technologists, I believe they will start buying, creating. [00:47:07] Whatever, renting for my part, some key features or applications, and I think that's the future. So that should be the focus. Yes. And that's all about creating better experience, customer impact, higher revenue savings, optimization, whatever. Yeah, that should be the focus. [00:47:23] Phil: I love it. I love your, your story about shopping there for, for an a BM platform. Whole, whole different, uh, like category, so to speak, like compared to, to the CDP, but, um, I, I love how you started your answer grounded in this idea that. Vendor relationships are really interesting and, and vendor partnerships. [00:47:42] Uh, [00:47:42] 8. The Limits of Vendor Isolation in Martech --- [00:47:42] Phil: you actually said that like most vendors today still pitch in isolation of each other without, you know, obviously knowing that they still are selling into customers who. Are not just using that one tool in isolation, like there's a whole stack. It only needs to talk to each other. Lots of vendors are slowly waking up to this like partner ecosystem, uh, idea with, with like point solutions kind of rising there. [00:48:10] vendor relationship look like from your seat at a massive enterprise, and what's the tell when one's going to flop? Like what are your thoughts there? [00:48:19] Henk: All right. I, I will give you an example, Phil. So I remember actually a few years ago, an account manager sent me an email that he would quit his job 'cause he was logging in and out of too many tools. I think it was 15, 16 of them. It was for me, it was for me a moment like, wow, yikes. You know what, what, what monster did we create? [00:48:35] You know, these people have to do their job day to day with that. And why I mentioned that example. It's, it's all about how these vendors collaborate, how they integrate, how they work together, et cetera. And, um, also a vendor to take one more step back. A vendor relationship is not an easy thing as well. [00:48:56] Especially for the larger ones, you know, the one that costs money where you have longer [00:49:00] relationships, whatever. And that's, that's a bit where we spoke about before that CO versus CEO, uh, it, procurement, you know, versus business, business wants it now. Uh, then it around, uh, uh, a renewal you cannot share too much insight from a business perspective, of course could impact your contracts, you know, towards procurement and what you pay for it, et cetera. [00:49:19] So, yeah, I think. Taking away. And there's some vendors that do that, eh, that they, they do actually contracting on your behalf. They know what other clients pay as well, you know, so they do the contracting for you. You have kind of a standard price, and I love that. 'cause then I don't need to be any more careful what I share with the vendor. [00:49:35] I can have any discussion, any workshop, any uh, reference session at any time, independent on when the contract is hitting years from now. And again, to answer your question, what is a good vendor relationship? Uh, we as Philips are very transparent on our tech stack. You can Google Philips MarTech Stack. [00:49:54] You will find the evolution of our tech stack over the past, uh, three, four years. And I love when [00:50:00] vendors come to the table. We have a conversation where they have looked at that. You skip already some conversations of how they can add benefit based on the context and business we are operating in and the technical backbone that we have. [00:50:12] Phil: Hmm. [00:50:12] Henk: I'm, I'm already having a very different conversation with Sapan, but often Yeah, you must get it as well. I'm getting all these LinkedIn messages with, uh, hi and young, did you think of this? Shall we talk? You know, it's, it's all topics that Okay. Might be important. There's abbreviations in it I've never heard about, you know, and, uh, yeah, I, I don't want to have a random conversation. [00:50:33] No, I'm happy to be inspired, you know, but I, I have certain use cases and, and problems where I look for solutions. And I will find you, you know, uh uh, I will find you. And also, one more thing I want to add, I think, I think I still see, especially with the larger vendors also, that we have one-to-one conversations, right? [00:50:50] Monthly, quarterly, whatever. Uh, uh, conversations on how the tool is adopting, uh, utilization, uh, uh, where we request features. Sometimes, you [00:51:00] know, these conversations, strategic conversations, but they never talk about the ecosystem or bringing other partners, vendors from the ecosystem on how they could better collaborate, you know, so it's very focused on the, on the customer, uh, that they have naturally, but they don't take into account the other, the, the broader ecosystem. [00:51:17] I think that could be a big win for a lot of vendors. 'cause then you offer kind of more package or, or I dunno the, the right word for it. I can't find it. But you offer kind of a, a way of collaborating on, on, again, maybe a capability or something that you want to achieve. So if vendors out there, please reach out to me for, with these kind of, uh, conversations. [00:51:36] Phil: Less acronyms in, in, in your LinkedIn dms. Also, Hank, this has been super fun. I feel like I, I failed a little bit in my research by it not uncovering that Phillips is transparent in their tech stack and I feel like there's a another part of this conversation we could have had diving into that. Because oftentimes when I have folks from big enterprise brands. [00:51:58] Like this is hush hush. Like they [00:52:00] can talk about whether they use Eloqua or, or HubSpot and like they can't share any of that And so we talk about, you know, we still have a lot of fun on like more thought leadership type stuff, and I feel like that's what we ended up doing and we didn't touch on the tech stack. [00:52:12] 9. Philips Digital Marketing & e-Commerce Stack --- [00:52:12] Phil: Maybe we can end super quickly on like, maybe two, three tools in the stack that, that you can share that you think aren't known very well that uh, folks should, should check out. [00:52:25] Henk: Yeah, definitely. So, so. To, to quite frank, I find it hard to name a view a few, and I think it would also not be fair to call them out because sometimes it's also about, uh, uh, maybe I've just spoke to a vendor or we just onboarded one and I'm ex [00:52:40] Phil: Recency bias. Yeah. [00:52:42] Henk: Exactly. But again, to, to give some sort of answer to your question, I think if you look at the, the, the picture that we put online of our tech stack, the, the platforms that are in there. [00:52:55] Yeah, I, I've seen really, uh, big changes of how we collaborate [00:53:00] based on the, the conversations we're having. Basically, we had one vendor, and I will not call out, call out the name in the content space, who, who showed that the ev they, they measure NPS, uh, together with the customers. And that vendor showed us that Everest NPS is something like minus 10, you know, bad, you know, but it actually helped us a lot 'cause where we, we we're trying to. [00:53:23] Uh, make this tool work for some of the people in our local markets. We thought maybe we need a different model, put a specialist team in place and let them manage the tool. 'cause we will never be successful. Uh, we measure, for example, platform happiness. Yeah. We do that day to day, uh uh, uh, every month. [00:53:39] But it, it, it'll never be a, a, a tool that people want to work with. You know, it's just too complex and it doesn't fit maybe with the average marketeers background or whatever. So put some champions in place, and actually that was great insight, a great conversation, and we learned something from it and which we could practically implement. [00:53:57] You know, we put our, our platform manager, [00:54:00] product owner, very close to someone in the business that, that, uh, that person really learned how the tool worked, became the champion in, in that business. Had lots of success with it, and also a lot of, uh, annoyance was taken away, you know, so, yeah. Again, I, I, I don't mention some specific vendors, but, uh, yeah, I think, I think that's the way to go have that conversation is show also where you're lacking, you know? [00:54:25] Phil: Yeah, I love it. Uh, we'll, we'll post up, uh, some of the most recent MarTech stack images there. Uh, I, I didn't realize that you guys. Won a couple of like stacky awards with, uh, with Chief MarTech. So there's some, some really cool ones. Uh, I found one from, from 2020. We'll, we'll put it up for the folks that are watching this on, on YouTube. [00:54:44] But, um, yeah, other folks, if, if you're listening, you, you're curious about getting the lay of the land. Um, the, yeah, Hank's digital marketing and e-comm team put a super cool, like visual infographic of, of the ecosystem and like conversion with awareness, [00:55:00] voice of customer membership. And, um, yeah, there's obviously a ton of tools on there. [00:55:04] Not surprised to see that. Some really cool names, but. Yeah. Hanks, it's been super fun. Really appreciate your time. Uh, [00:55:10] 10. How to Use Weekly Prioritization to Protect Energy --- [00:55:10] Phil: you're obviously a MarTech leader, head of the digital programs at an enterprise company. You're a keynote speaker. You're also a husband and a father of two daughters. You're a frequent traveler, avid sports fanatic, community steward. [00:55:23] I know you do a lot with, uh, giving back to the community. You've got a ton of stuff going on in your life. One question we ask everyone on the show when we close out the episode is, how do you remain happy and successful in your career, and how do you find balance? Between all the stuff you're working on while staying happy. [00:55:38] Henk: Yes, I, I, I think it's really about staying true to yourself, being yourself, staying authentic. 'cause otherwise it costs you a lot of energy, especially in the age of ai. I think it's really. It's important to be grounded in what you believe and, and have really a bit of optimism also. 'cause some people are daunted by, I dunno, whatever comes their way, or AI or whatever topic. [00:55:59] [00:56:00] And I'm really an optimist by nature and believe, uh, also that optimism is really something to hold onto in most circumstances. You know, it's not always easy. But, uh, also they're choosing to be optimistic. Takes courage to lead also, it takes courage and it both comes with its perks, of course, but also with its responsibilities. [00:56:19] And I'm just very fortunate that I really love that the mix and my background is also from, from a sales, working at a startup. Now I'm marketing and technology. I really love the, the, the, uh, the tech, the business and the people, and. I think that helps a great deal also, uh, I've developed a habit, uh, and it's maybe a small, uh, life hack that I use every Friday. [00:56:42] I look at my next week, I think of that week, uh, where I work five days. But what if I would go on holiday Thursday, Friday? So actually I have only three days left. What, what would I focus on? You know, it's also really about, uh, focusing and, uh, one more thing, uh, uh, making choices. Of course, they're saying [00:57:00] no more often than yes. [00:57:02] Uh, it helps you enormously. Otherwise it just gets too big as, as too much on your plate. And, uh, I think also there's something, uh, yeah, like I said, stay true to yourself. Focus, uh, but also don't do it alone. You know, you, you need to do it together. Share if, if you have a bad day, and talk about it with your team, with the people around you, you know, they can help you. [00:57:22] Um, and, uh, yeah, I think that that's the most important. Of course, my family helps me. My, my sports helps me, uh, very much as well. And, uh, yeah. I also believe that if you're not feeling well outside of work, you will not do your best job at work also. So, uh, yeah, uh, prioritize that me time. I know a lot of people, you know, in my teams, they put in the calendar to spend. [00:57:45] 30 minutes, uh, one hour on self-reflection or personal development, et cetera. What's the first thing in the week that gets thrown out of your calendar is that one hour with yourself. So it means you're not prioritizing yourself, you know? And I know it's not easy and I also don't [00:58:00] do it perfectly. Uh, but yeah, I think that's, that's very important. [00:58:03] Think of, of. What you are in that business, you're way more than that role. Think what you are outside of that business also, you know? And yeah, I just get that awful lot of energy connecting with the community, talking with other people, seeing, uh, like I said before, uh, that you're not so different than the rest and, and everybody's struggling in some way or another. [00:58:23] And sometimes when you see all these, uh, pitches online or, or you go to conference, whatever, it looks so perfect. You know, same as a vendor presentation in the end. Try to, try to connect with the person behind it. And, uh, I also just have fun, uh, while doing it. Enjoy the journey. That's it. Stay a pirate. [00:58:40] Phil: I love it. Hank, this is super fun, uh, powerful answer. You always see a brilliant mind, uh, and MarTech really appreciate you sitting with us for, for an hour and, and sharing some of your wisdom. Uh, looking forward to keep the conversation going. Thank you so much for your time. [00:58:54] Henk: Thank you, Phil.