Coming up on the devil's details. Babylon has fallen, and it can't get up. Are you an over bloated empire? Has this happened to you? I'm Rome

and I'm and I'm full of spaghetti and and authoritarianism.

Oh, I'm the Hittite Empire, and and nobody knows who I am or what I'm famous for or nothing.

All my friends have gone off to to to forge new lands, and I'm just here with my collection of collectible plates. Oh.

Yeah. Oh, and we can't get up. It's the point where I'm. Yeah. Seeking life call no longer exists, which is sad too.

Oh, Jesus. There might be, like, somebody who has one still and doesn't know that they're they're defunct.

Oh, no.

That'd be terrible. Oh god.

I don't understand the references anymore. I'm ancient Egypt. No. I let all his people go, and now

Now now becomes a visit.

They don't even write. They don't. Oh, no.

I told them all those years ago to get off my lawn, and and now I just wish they would be on my lawn. Anyway anyway, good morning, Star, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, deconstruct the many forms of the devil. One of my names is Lester Ryan

Clark. And I sometimes go by Kynan Dias.

And we're just two lost souls hitchhiking down the highway to hell. Yeah, folks. Welcome back. We're on chapter chapter 18 now. And if last chapter was John pointing at Rome and saying that's Babylon, that's the the whore, the beast.

Right? This chapter is John watching it all burn down. And I gotta say, this is one of my favorite chapters in the whole book because it is just so satisfying. John is not holding back here. He is reveling.

Ah, you see what I did there, folks? Reveling in Rome's destruction. And, honestly, after everything we have learned about what Rome did to, his community, we can't really blame him. Yeah. This chapter is essentially a a funeral dirge or actually more more like an anti funeral dirge.

It's a celebration of Babylon's fall, but it's told through, the voices of all the people, mourning her, and there's this beautiful brutal irony to, to to to the whole thing. So let's get into it without further delay. Let's read this chapter. This is Revelation chapter 18. And after these things, I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power, and the earth was lighted with his glory.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice saying Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven saying, come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works, in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

How much she hath glorified herself and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her. For she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore, shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning and famine, and she shall be utterly burned with fire for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her shall bewail her and lament for her when they shall see the smoke of her burning. Standing afar off for the fear of her torment saying, alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is thy judgment come.

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buyeth their merchandise anymore. The merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and of pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet and all wood and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, and cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing. And saying, alas, alas, the great city that was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls.

For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every ship master and all the company in ships and sailors and as many as trade by sea stood afar off. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning saying, what city is like unto this great city? And they cast dust on their heads and cried weeping and wailing saying, alas, alas, the great city wherein were made rich all the headships in the sea by reason of her costliness. For in one hour is she made desolate.

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea saying, thus with violence shall the great city Babylon be thrown down and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers and musicians and of pipers and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee. And no craftsman of whatsoever craft he be shall be found anymore in thee. And the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee.

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee. And the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee. For thy merchants were the great men of the earth, for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth. Hoo boy.

Very a lot of slaying.

Lot of slaying. A lot of no more of this and a lot of no more of that.

No more of this bada bing. No more of that bada boom.

It gives me the impression Mhmm. That sword mouth Jesus was was gave him a much shorter explanation. Mhmm. And John was like, but what of all what of all the perfumes? What of all the alduras?

What of all the silks? And he was like,

and no

more of that.

What about all the merchandise and the gold?

And no more of that as well.

No more anything. No more anything. Come on. Let's move on from this.

Yes. No. No. Erase that. Don't don't say let's move on.

Look at

But what about the thining wood?

The what? And then he has to look

it up. Right. He has to look it up again.

But, yeah, so I again, once again, Keenan, this this this passage is not familiar to me. How about you?

No. No. No. I I hear about I've heard about the Whore of Babylon before, but we usually don't talk about how it is dispatched. We usually think of it as, like, some, you know, some present thing today, right, like, with the devil or anything like that.

Yeah. And it's very clearly, like like Mhmm. It it goes back to what you were saying about, like, how, like, people read, you know, philosophers, you know, like, halfway, and they read the bible, only halfway, know, and then they stop at a certain point. And I feel like anybody reading this chapter is like, oh, it's it's not a person at all. It is definitely a city, and we're talking about the destruction of this city, the ruin of this city.

Right. Mhmm. Yeah. So so, yeah, in popular end times interpretation, chapter 18 is about the destruction of the one world economic economic system or the the final judgment on whatever they have decided Babylon represents, The Catholic church, the, European Union, the the future global government. Right?

Whatever. It it is seen as God finally smiting this evil system, and all the merchants and kings are weeping because, you know, their source of wealth is gone. Some interpreters get really specific about the merchandise list, trying to trying to match it to, you know, modern economies or or prophesying, about the collapse of global trade. I've heard people say it's about the fall of capitalism or the destruction of New York City.

New York City.

New York City.

Or or What about the salsa there?

Yeah. Or possibly the the end of the petrodollar. Mhmm. It's all all very dramatic and very not what John was talking about

at all. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So people are are trying to find, you know, modern versions of these riches, etcetera.

But yeah. But, I mean, it does take up so much time to read these these riches, so it does feel like, oh gosh. That must be important.

Like, are like, each one is symbolic. Each one is important. Yeah. Yeah. But okay.

Well, let's, yeah, let's talk about what's actually happening here. So chapter 18 is a is a taunt song. It's it's a funeral lament, but it it is mocking. John is writing in a very specific Jewish prophetic tradition here. And if you know your Old Testament prophets, you're gonna recognize this style immediately.

Mhmm. So the the angel comes down and announces Babylon the great is fallen is fallen. And folks, this is a direct reference to Isaiah twenty one nine where the fall of ancient Babylon is announced in almost the exact same words. John is literally copy pasting from Isaiah. He is saying what happened to ancient Babylon is happening to Rome.

History is, repeating itself. Mhmm. And then we get this phrase, quote, and has become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. This is also straight out of the prophetic playbook, but both Isaiah and Jeremiah used this exact imagery when describing the desolation of Babylon and Edom. A city that was once glorious is now just ruins, inhabited by demons and scavenger birds.

It's abandoned, it's dead, it is cursed effectively.

Okay. Not quite the demons of like, the kind of demons that that serves Satan in hell or something like that, but more of the ghost, I guess, like everyone is dead and it's a ghost town, a demon town?

I think so. And then I think I think when they're talking about devils and demons, I think they're talking about, like, evil people.

Oh, okay. Okay. Mhmm. Mhmm. That's that's all that would be left behind.

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh-huh. I shouldn't say left behind because this is Revelation.

You shouldn't say what?

Left behind.

Nicholas Cage. Nicholas wait. Wait. Nicholas cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

This bird is is eating my face. Right. My face off. Yeah. Okay.

So yeah. So okay. So this is this is, again, referencing the Old Testament prophets, and and this is sarcasm. So this this, like, all these lists of things that we are are lamenting. It's like a weird owl sort of version of of of this.

Okay. I I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. And then verse four, this one's important. Come out of her, my people, that ye that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues.

So there are still people living there. Right? And I I think that's what he means. These are the devils and the and the demons. Right?

And so and so John is saying, like like you guys, though, you guys come out. Like like, you know, get away from the city. Mhmm. Right? Come out of her, my people.

This is John telling his community to to separate themselves from Rome, from the empire, from the beast. Don't participate in this system. Don't be, complicit. And and folks, this is echoing Jeremiah fifty one forty five where God tells the Israelites to flee from Babylon before it is destroyed. Same pattern, same warning.

Okay. And, yeah, this is so so relevant to John's community because remember, they're living in the Roman Empire. They can't physically leave, but John is saying spiritually, economically, morally, get out. Don't worship the emperor. Don't participate in the imperial cult.

Don't benefit from Rome's oppression and violence. Separate yourselves.

So we're using the language of a literal evacuation because we have some great disaster coming, but we're talking about spiritually. Okay.

Yeah. So it's like an exodus of of of the mind and the heart.

Oh, okay. So I did see in these early passages here, at least one scholar, this is James Taber, believes that we are also mimicking some of the, I guess, what would be news of Pompeii being destroyed by Vesuvius. So he's saying that we so so I was like, oh, is that is that when this is? So that was in seventy nine AD. So that would be that would be news.

That would be, you know, us talking about Katrina or something or 09/11. Mhmm.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so working all of that in there as well. Mhmm. Yeah.

And then starting in verse nine, we get these three groups of people mourning Babylon's fall. We got the kings, the merchants, and the shipmasters, and each group has basically the same response. Alas, alas, the great city. They're they're they're standing far off watching her burn, and they're devastated. And and why?

Not because they loved Babylon, not because they cared about the people who lived there, but because they from her.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's that's part of what Taber's talking about, that, like, the surviving texts about Pompeii are for people who some of them were, like, in the Port Of Of Vesuvius oh, sorry. In the Port Of Pompeii, like Oh. In on their boats, and that's who, like, wrote about this.

So similarly, these it's kings who were just far enough that they could watch it and see it being destroyed within, like, within an hour, which is kind of the the language we have here. The whole thing destroyed in an hour. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another like, almost almost like like a a point for point.

Right. Mhmm.

Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, the the the king's quote committed fornication and lived deliciously with her. There's there's where that phrase comes from, lived deliciously.

I I I, for one, would like to live deliciously. I'd like to leave us a five Pentagram rating on iTunes or Spotify wherever you find your podcasts. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that that's that's the, you know, the the most delicious the most delicious meal Mhmm. Is the one I give to somebody else. But, like, yeah, like I was saying. Right? The kings committed fornication and lived deliciously with The merchants, quote, were made rich by her.

The shipmasters, quote, were made rich, all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness. Mhmm. Alright? So so they're not mourning a tragedy. They are mourning the loss of their income stream.

Mhmm. Yeah. Folks, can we talk about this list of merchandise in verses twelve and thirteen? Because, yeah, Keenan, as you pointed out, this is specific. Mhmm.

And this isn't John making stuff up. This is John listing the actual trade goods that made Rome rich, gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple silk, scarlet, these are luxury goods. This is the stuff the Roman elite were obsessed with. Right?

Yeah. And again, purple and scarlet being the Roman colors.

Exactly.

Not the Babylonian colors. I'm sure they had colors, I don't know what they are.

Yeah. Yeah. And we and we don't need to know.

I had I I had colors too, but nobody asks me about them. Except that handsome gentleman on Fox News. No.

Sean No. Habitat, Nezar. Oh, but I did Google this here. So Uh-huh. Because I was just wondering that, yeah, the Babylonian colors were absolutely not purple and scarlet.

They were they were blue and yellow. They were

cobalt blue and yellow. Mhmm.

Oh, there we go. See?

So there you go. So it's not Babylon. Mhmm. Babylon's not Babylon. Yep.

Yep. Babylon's Rome.

Purple is the new yellow. But, we're not even finished with this. Thyane wood,

ivory, precious wood, brass, iron, marble.

These are these are building materials for their massive monuments and temples. Cinnamon, spices, ointments, frankincense, right, imported luxuries from the East, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat. Right? This is the the food supply that kept the city fed. And then and then at the end of the list, and slaves and souls of men.

So slaves and souls of men, folks, that that's not redundant. That is emphatic. John is putting human beings at the end of the merchandise list, after the spices and the building materials and the luxury goods, and he's saying Rome's entire economy is built on the buying and selling of human lives. And this isn't hyperbole. Historians estimate that at the height of the Roman Empire, somewhere between 20 to 40% of the population of Italy were enslaved people.

The whole system ran on slavery. And John is saying, you built your empire on human souls. You treated people as merchandise, and now it's all coming down. And actually, this list is probably also a direct reference to Ezekiel 27, which is a lament over the city of Tyr. Tyr?

Tyr?

I say Tyr, but I guess I've never heard someone from there say it out loud.

Yeah. And we can't ask them now. T Y R E.

No. You can totally ask me. Just just come over. I'm I'm glad to tell I have colors as well. No.

That's okay.

That's that's alright.

We were trying to think of jokes about, you know, not not real jokes about real old people, but No. Sort of jokes about, you know, comedy old people. Yeah. Yeah. Early bird specials and that kind

of thing. Yeah.

But in my sitcom class, I was telling the students who are now, you know, twenty years younger, I was telling them about what happened on Matlock this season. I was telling them about the pilot of Matlock with Kathy Bates, they were like, oh, I get to see it in their eyes. Old man, stop talking to me about Mat lock.

Oh, now there's a silver fox.

But you know who Matlock is now? You're too young and hip to know this. You know who's playing Matlock this, you know, this time around?

Oh, who?

Kathy Bates. What? She's Matlock. See? And we're like, I'll I'll watch Matlock with Kathy Bates.

Yeah. I will.

And nobody can tell me I can't.

I'll

Right. And now I see it. She's like, you need to retire.

No. You guys don't understand. Kathy Bates is is Kathy Bates? Is the GOAT.

That's right. Kathy Bates from Primary Colors and Richard Jewell. Yes.

She hobbled at one guy.

Oh, that's a fun one. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Alright. Alright.

Tyre is what we're talking about.

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Tyre. Tyre.

Tyre. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, Tyre. I'll I'll we'll say Tyre.

Right? Alright.

But, yeah, another ancient city known for its wealth and trade. Ezekiel lists Tyre's merchandise in almost the exact same way and then describes its destruction. So, again, John is pulling from the prophetic tradition. He's saying what happened to Tyre, what happened to ancient Babylon is happening to Rome.

Alright. So Tyre is Babylon is Rome.

Yes. Great. Mhmm. Yep. Yep.

Is dot dot dot question mark. But okay. I wanna talk about verse 17. So quote, for in one hour so great riches is come to naught. Mhmm.

So in one hour, right, that phrase shows up three times in this chapter. The destruction is sudden. It's complete. It's catastrophic. And folks, I don't think John is is being literal.

I don't think he's saying Rome is gonna be destroyed in exactly sixty minutes Mhmm. Which comes before Matlock. No.

Right? That's very good. CBS jokes. Mhmm.

So, right, in one hour, right, is is apocalyptic language, right, for for suddenly, unexpectedly, completely, right, it's here one moment, gone the next. Right? It wasn't built in a day and it won't go away in a day. Uh-huh. And then we get these beautiful haunting verses at the end.

Right? Verses 21 through 23 where an angel throws a millstone into the sea and says, thus with violence shall the great shall that great city Babylon be thrown down and shall be found no more at all. Mhmm. Mhmm.

I think that's an interesting image that that he paints here because it's like we're taking the millstone out of Well, first of all, just says like we're gonna throw it down like it is a millstone, like heavy. And so we have that imagery. And then he comes back to it later, he's like, and there was never any other kind of industry in Babylon forever. As if the imagery here is what actually literally happens, that they take the literal millstone out of Babylon and burn from the

sea. You can't have this millstone anymore.

Right. Because you are the millstone. Yes. Right. Because the tire tire is the millstone is Babylon is Rome.

Yes. Right.

And, yeah, and then it's this list of everything that will be silent. Right? No more music. No more craftsman. No more millstones grinding.

No more lamps. No more weddings. The city is dead. All the sounds of life, of commerce, of celebration, they are all gone. It is complete desolation.

Yeah. I have a complaint here about the writing, but it is is apparently the King James translator's problem here. So in R, King James it says, and the voice of harpers and the musicians and flutists. So in the literal translation, is the sound of harpers and musicians and flutists, Because harpers don't use their voices.

Yeah. Don't you love it when you go to the symphony and you listen to the harps

and they're like, hey, hey,

hey, hey. Peanuts, get your peanuts here.

Right? If we can take one lesson from the OG harper, Harpo, who did not speak.

That is so funny. I was like, why is the first harpist I think of Harpo Marks? The, oh, because his name has harp in

it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for answering that. Mhmm. That's something what's wrong with me?

Yeah. But, yeah, folks, this is also straight from the prophets, not Harper Marks, but this is the like like all all the stuff we just said from Jeremiah twenty five ten has almost this exact list when describing the destruction of Jerusalem and the other nations. Quote, I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the candle. Mhmm. So John is working in this deep prophetic tradition.

He is using the language and imagery that his Jewish audience would immediately recognize and he is saying Rome is Babylon. Rome is Tyre. Rome is all these great empires that thought they were invincible and they all fell. Rome will too. Mhmm.

And verse 24, the final verse. This is the reason why. Quote, and in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth. So Rome has blood on its hands, not just Christian blood, not just Jewish blood, but the blood of everyone the empire has killed in its quest for power and wealth, and that's why it falls. That's why it must fall because you cannot build an empire on corpses and expect it to stand forever.

Mhmm.

And folks, here is what I love about this chapter. John isn't saying, God is gonna supernaturally intervene and smite Rome with lightning bolts. He is saying, Rome is gonna destroy itself. The merchants lose their market. The shipmasters have no one to trade with.

The kings lose their partner. The system collapses because it was unsustainable. You cannot build an economy on slavery and exploitation forever. Eventually, it eats itself.

Mhmm. That is a good point because some of the other chapters before this and after this Mhmm. It certainly feels like God, you know

Right.

Loose the the the wine presses with his wrath, etcetera. But, yeah, this part is is entirely in this whole chapter about it just happening, an implosion. Right? Mhmm. Rather than, you know, a meteor coming in.

But, yeah, it's funny, though. As as I'm as you're describing it, I'd like to still imagine the meteor. I still imagine the volcano, but you're right. Mhmm. That's not in the chapter.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we're meant to to partially see that. Mhmm. And and partially it's like, you know, that, like, quote unquote, God's wrath, but, like, it's it's really us, like, shooting ourselves in the foot.

Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah, that brings us to today.

And I'm I'm gonna be honest with you folks. This this chapter feels a little bit different right now because we are watching in real time an empire that is built on the same things Rome was built on. We've we've got an economy that depends on exploitation, on treating people as merchandise, on extracting wealth from the most vulnerable. We've got a system that prioritizes profit over human lives. And, yeah, just like in John's time, people are profiting from this.

There are corporations making money off detention centers. There are politicians building careers on cruelty. There are merchants of suffering, and they're getting rich.

You know, I I heard an interesting story on Planet Money recently, a podcast Mhmm. That was about a town, I believe, Georgia where they had an old prison Uh-huh. That used to employ used to be the main employer the town, and now it's becoming an ICE detention center, you know, an registration camp, really. And and like the debate within that town of like, jeez, like, that these are jobs coming back, etcetera, but people know that not everyone agrees with this, obviously. But then like if you don't if they don't put it here and hire all these people, they're gonna put it somewhere else.

You know, those really terrible, like, you know, moral choices and you have the town trying to try to live with that. Uh-huh. Mhmm.

I mean, and and like just the the just the knowing that, like like, however you justify it right now, history is not going to care. Right. That's what I would say. Yeah. Mhmm.

Yeah. History is gonna remember as, oh, yeah. This is the town that that welcomed the the concentration camp. Right. Mhmm.

You know? And, yeah, John's message to his community and to us is don't participate. Right? Come out of her. Don't be complicit in this system.

Don't let them make you party to this violence. There was also some I saw another news story about a woman who she burned this building to the ground because they were they were set to be the next concentration camp. Mhmm. And then the company that owned the building, they they, I guess, they made a public statement after the burning because I think I think they were trying to do it in secret and and, you know, it wasn't it wasn't very public. And, you know, I mean, once you build once you burn it down, then it's like like, oh, it's all over the news that, oh, it was gonna be a a concentration camp.

Right. And so they came out and said, oh, we've actually retracted our our offer to to participate in in the the building of this camp Mhmm. After this lady burned it down.

So Right.

Mhmm. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Like like, this is the thing, and and this is where the hope comes in.

Babylon falls, empire collapses, every system built on the blood of the innocent eventually crumbles under its own weight. I know it doesn't feel that way right now. I I know it feels like like the people in power are invincible, like like this is just how things are and how they'll always be. The kings and the merchants and the and the shipmasters, right, they they think they're gonna, you know, profit forever. They think the party's never gonna end, but it does.

It always does. History shows us this again and again. Rome fell. Every empire that came after Rome fell, and they all fell for the same reason, because you cannot build a civilization on cruelty and expect it to endure. Mhmm.

And in the meantime, while we're waiting for Babylon to fall, we have a choice. We can be the kings and the merchants profiting profiting from the system, you know, lamenting when our income stream dries up, or we can be the people who hear the voice saying come out of her, the people who refuse to participate, the people who refuse to be complicit, who hold on to their humanity even when empire demands that we surrender it. And, yeah, it's hard. It's scary. I never I never ever actually thought that I would be facing the same choices that, you know, the people in my history books have had to face.

Right? But

Even at a smaller level.

Even at a smaller level. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that that that's in the past. Yeah.

Mhmm. Mhmm. But, yeah, same thing. John's community was powerless against Rome. We we feel powerless now, but they didn't give in.

They didn't worship the beast. They didn't sell their souls for security or comfort or profit. Mhmm. Right? And eventually, Babylon burned.

So hold on, folks. Keep refusing. Keep resisting. Keep being human in an inhuman system because the millstone is already being lifted, and when it drops, when this system finally collapses under its own corruption, we're gonna be the ones who build something better in the ashes, not an empire, not Babylon two point o, something actually worth building. But, yeah, folks, this has been another episode of the Devil's Details.

I've been Lester Ryan Clark. You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.

And I've been Keenan Diaz, and you can invoke me on Instagram and Letterbox at Howdy Keenan.

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