WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:50.080 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:50.080 --> 00:00:52.070 Today, we've got Jane Faulkner. 00:00:52.760 --> 00:00:55.780 Jane Faulkner is like everyone who comes on Equine Assisted 00:00:55.780 --> 00:00:57.110 World, jolly interesting. 00:00:57.670 --> 00:01:01.230 She runs Equine Assisted Therapy Australia. 00:01:01.930 --> 00:01:07.840 For those of you who are familiar with Equine Assisted Psychotherapy it's a 00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:15.590 Fascinating tool for helping people get to the bottom of their stuff and make 00:01:15.590 --> 00:01:21.280 the necessary changes that they need to to get to happier places in life. 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:24.350 And of course, because we're doing, it's being done with horses. 00:01:24.790 --> 00:01:28.810 This is not, you know, sitting opposite somebody in a office on a 00:01:28.810 --> 00:01:32.680 couch feeling terrible about yourself and sort of compounding the trauma. 00:01:33.950 --> 00:01:40.280 The equine assisted psychotherapy work has been well studied for getting really 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:45.150 lasting outcomes and there seems to be a magic with mixing this with not 00:01:45.150 --> 00:01:48.440 just the horse, but the movement and the environment that the horses create. 00:01:48.570 --> 00:01:53.080 So, but what's interesting about Jane is that she did not come into horses. 00:01:53.535 --> 00:01:58.185 As many of us did as sort of initiated cult members as children she came 00:01:58.185 --> 00:02:01.635 in a little bit through the side door in a slightly indirect way. 00:02:01.665 --> 00:02:06.415 And those of you who listened to our interview with Lynn Thomas, who founded 00:02:06.415 --> 00:02:11.375 Igala might see a parallel there in that when people seem to come into the 00:02:11.375 --> 00:02:15.650 equine assisted world, From outside of the equine world, often they can bring 00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:20.700 with them insights that perhaps we horse obsessed people might not see because 00:02:20.700 --> 00:02:23.620 we sometimes can't see the wood for the trees because we like ponies so much. 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:29.380 So, without further ado, I'm gonna hand over to you, Jane, and I'm going 00:02:29.380 --> 00:02:33.610 to ask you how you got there because your, your, your story is fascinating. 00:02:34.010 --> 00:02:34.440 And. 00:02:35.180 --> 00:02:39.650 I think all of the adventures that you've had give you the perspective 00:02:39.650 --> 00:02:44.140 to be able to offer what you offer to both clients and the people who 00:02:44.140 --> 00:02:49.150 do your two year diploma in equine assisted psychotherapy in Australia, 00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:51.220 and this thing of life experience. 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:56.240 In general is so important rather than just, I got a degree in therapy 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:58.120 and I like horses, so off, off we go. 00:02:58.600 --> 00:03:02.770 Yeah it's, it's, it's very important that one has this great variety of experience. 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.390 So, Jane, over to you. 00:03:05.450 --> 00:03:09.710 Can you tell us where you began in life and your early years? 00:03:09.710 --> 00:03:09.980 Yeah. 00:03:11.405 --> 00:03:12.375 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, sure. 00:03:12.795 --> 00:03:16.495 So I grew up in a little town called Waterford in Queensland 00:03:16.975 --> 00:03:21.455 in Australia with three brothers and on a river, the Logan River. 00:03:21.455 --> 00:03:23.815 So it was kind of semi rural. 00:03:23.885 --> 00:03:26.995 We were just on an acre, but we were surrounded by acreage. 00:03:27.605 --> 00:03:33.335 So I was outside all the time as a kid swimming across the river playing soccer 00:03:34.635 --> 00:03:40.595 and my neighbors actually had horses and so I loved them from next door. 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:44.480 So I remember going over and they used to put molasses in the feed. 00:03:44.480 --> 00:03:48.770 I remember being excited about having some of the molasses, but 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:53.080 not really having much interaction apart from a pat other than that. 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.690 And I think I, yeah, I never really entertained having horses cause 00:03:58.690 --> 00:04:00.300 I just knew that we couldn't. 00:04:00.850 --> 00:04:05.010 So, I grew up to an English dad and an Australian mum. 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:09.540 And yeah, my childhood was. 00:04:10.485 --> 00:04:18.255 I was quite a responsible kid and so I looked after my brothers and yeah, 00:04:18.255 --> 00:04:28.435 just felt really at home outside was pretty bossy and it's true, it's true, 00:04:28.435 --> 00:04:33.405 it was pretty bossy and had quite at that age, had quite a strong sense of 00:04:33.575 --> 00:04:38.265 self then as a teenager, so I guess. 00:04:38.890 --> 00:04:43.470 My dad was quite a very stressed out man and I think as kids, 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:44.910 we were quite scared of him. 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:49.600 So when I hit the teenage, so I learned to suppress a lot and 00:04:49.630 --> 00:04:51.550 kind of be a really good kid. 00:04:51.730 --> 00:04:54.900 So I didn't really ever get in trouble, did the right thing, 00:04:54.900 --> 00:04:56.160 looked after my brothers. 00:04:56.760 --> 00:05:01.340 But as I got into my teenage years, I started developing acne and 00:05:01.340 --> 00:05:02.960 I think a big part of that was. 00:05:04.190 --> 00:05:06.310 My emotions erupting through my skin. 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:11.560 So that kind of led me to really get curious about health and wellbeing. 00:05:11.570 --> 00:05:16.450 And it made me, I think, think differently to a lot of my peers. 00:05:16.760 --> 00:05:22.350 So I felt really ugly and a lot of shame around having the acne. 00:05:23.060 --> 00:05:23.420 So. 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:30.440 I think I focused on I was focused on a career and learning and 00:05:30.460 --> 00:05:34.760 yeah, understanding why my body was doing what it was doing. 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.360 So for me, I was lucky. 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:41.600 I had some amazing neighbors and they were into meditation and 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:45.960 they were into naturopathy and they kind of opened a door for me. 00:05:46.395 --> 00:05:52.395 At 16 to kind of start looking into myself and getting curious about how 00:05:52.435 --> 00:05:57.025 my thoughts were creating my reality. 00:05:57.085 --> 00:05:57.505 I guess. 00:05:58.015 --> 00:06:01.915 And I used to go to meditations with them at the time. 00:06:01.915 --> 00:06:06.455 It was spiritual meditations, you know, where you're kind of, you know, Opening 00:06:06.455 --> 00:06:10.845 up to the spiritual world and getting curious about all of that kind of stuff. 00:06:11.305 --> 00:06:12.365 And I loved that. 00:06:12.415 --> 00:06:15.105 I just, that was really kind of my jam. 00:06:15.755 --> 00:06:21.090 From there as a teenager, I never really feel felt like I fit in because I, I 00:06:21.090 --> 00:06:27.660 was, I look back and I realized I was a pretty deep kid and so, and I guess 00:06:27.670 --> 00:06:32.510 feeling so ugly, I was never really into the, the mating game or the party scene. 00:06:32.850 --> 00:06:37.590 I was more into learning about taking care of myself and my 00:06:37.590 --> 00:06:40.280 health and understanding who I was. 00:06:40.380 --> 00:06:45.030 So I was pretty not sure what I wanted to do when I left school. 00:06:45.170 --> 00:06:46.390 Mom, mom was a nurse. 00:06:46.390 --> 00:06:47.960 She was like, why don't you do nursing? 00:06:48.215 --> 00:06:56.125 I studied nursing, and that was a real challenge for me because I could see how 00:06:57.005 --> 00:06:59.645 the system wasn't really a health system. 00:06:59.895 --> 00:07:05.905 It was kind of, it went against a lot of what I was learning about what health is. 00:07:06.765 --> 00:07:12.795 And again, I guess I felt like I didn't really fit in and as a nurse as well, I 00:07:12.795 --> 00:07:18.315 yeah, just worked, I think as a nurse, you're taught to not really, if you're 00:07:18.315 --> 00:07:21.925 a better nurse when you don't have needs, so not having breaks and just 00:07:21.925 --> 00:07:24.345 always kind of giving to your patients. 00:07:25.265 --> 00:07:27.435 So, for me, I burnt out. 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:32.250 And because I loved, I loved the people contact, I loved talking with 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:37.390 people, but I just didn't like how people in the system were kind of a 00:07:37.390 --> 00:07:40.980 number that people, the system wasn't interested in that person or the 00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:46.060 history or why they might've developed the illness that they had developed. 00:07:46.530 --> 00:07:50.030 So, after I studied nursing and when I worked as a nurse here 00:07:50.030 --> 00:07:53.170 in Australia, I worked in a clinic in New Farm in Brisbane. 00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:58.880 And we worked with so we worked with the local prostitutes and the 00:07:58.880 --> 00:08:04.160 local transgender populations that were wanting to kind of transition. 00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:08.130 So I loved that job and I loved the different people I worked with. 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:10.670 And I guess it was around. 00:08:10.670 --> 00:08:10.770 What did 00:08:10.770 --> 00:08:11.250 Rupert Isaacson: you love? 00:08:11.290 --> 00:08:15.130 What did you love about that particular work in those particular populations? 00:08:16.070 --> 00:08:16.880 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:20.700 Thanks for asking me that, you know, I think it was their realness. 00:08:21.340 --> 00:08:26.000 Their authenticity, they they were surviving, you know, I remember 00:08:26.010 --> 00:08:30.770 having a client who was 13 living in a car, having to prostitute 00:08:30.770 --> 00:08:34.760 herself and she was just so real. 00:08:34.770 --> 00:08:35.930 There was no masks. 00:08:35.930 --> 00:08:37.270 There was no bullshit. 00:08:37.280 --> 00:08:39.600 There was, I need these drugs. 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:43.250 You know, she just kind of knew what she wanted, knew what she needed. 00:08:43.930 --> 00:08:44.400 Yeah. 00:08:44.500 --> 00:08:45.100 And I think. 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:49.910 I really liked that there was no having to work hard to work out 00:08:49.910 --> 00:08:51.590 what she wanted or who she was. 00:08:51.590 --> 00:08:57.790 It was just there in plain sight and I really loved that about yeah, 00:08:57.790 --> 00:09:02.380 working at that clinic and I guess working with people as a nurse. 00:09:02.410 --> 00:09:06.640 'cause you are seeing people at their most vulnerable, you know, people sick, dying. 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.840 Mentally ill and yeah, it gets rid of a lot of the pretense and the 00:09:12.870 --> 00:09:15.870 superficial superficialities of life. 00:09:15.870 --> 00:09:17.590 And I really liked that. 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:22.510 But as I said, so I liked the people part, but I didn't like the system part. 00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:26.530 So for me, I traveled, I went overseas nursed over there. 00:09:26.695 --> 00:09:28.185 And, 00:09:28.245 --> 00:09:31.925 Rupert Isaacson: Overseas and over there is quite a large sort of, Sorry. 00:09:32.015 --> 00:09:32.575 Blanket. 00:09:32.585 --> 00:09:33.235 Jane Faulkner: London. 00:09:33.565 --> 00:09:34.935 Yeah, so I worked in London. 00:09:34.935 --> 00:09:36.235 I worked in the London Clinic. 00:09:36.265 --> 00:09:39.815 I worked in one of the big hospitals in Northern London. 00:09:40.565 --> 00:09:42.425 And then I worked as a private nurse. 00:09:42.425 --> 00:09:43.235 Whittington. 00:09:43.315 --> 00:09:44.225 Say, say again? 00:09:44.325 --> 00:09:45.265 Rupert Isaacson: Whittington, by any chance. 00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:47.100 Jane Faulkner: No, it wasn't. 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:47.970 It started with an R. 00:09:49.310 --> 00:09:50.740 I can't think what it was called, huge hospital. 00:09:50.740 --> 00:09:51.850 I just thought Whittington was the 00:09:51.850 --> 00:09:53.200 Rupert Isaacson: one closest to me in North London. 00:09:53.390 --> 00:09:53.640 Ah, 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:54.438 Jane Faulkner: ah, ah, yeah. 00:09:54.438 --> 00:09:55.340 I wondered if I might have 00:09:55.370 --> 00:09:57.270 Rupert Isaacson: walked past you accidentally on the street, perhaps. 00:09:57.730 --> 00:09:57.800 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, 00:09:58.600 --> 00:09:59.230 Rupert Isaacson: quite possibly. 00:10:00.260 --> 00:10:01.700 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah. 00:10:02.055 --> 00:10:06.375 For me, going overseas was amazing because it gave me a chance to really 00:10:06.375 --> 00:10:09.425 work out who I was and being overseas. 00:10:09.475 --> 00:10:13.285 Not I went with my brother, my older brother, but we met a whole 00:10:13.405 --> 00:10:15.115 new group of people over there. 00:10:15.685 --> 00:10:19.355 And I remember having this realization that I can be who I want over here. 00:10:19.395 --> 00:10:23.765 Nobody knows who I am and realizing how being at home. 00:10:23.765 --> 00:10:24.565 I kind of. 00:10:25.615 --> 00:10:31.275 Let myself be boxed into this persona that people thought of as Jane. 00:10:31.485 --> 00:10:34.325 So for me, being overseas was really liberating. 00:10:34.845 --> 00:10:38.845 I looked into a lot of different natural therapies again. 00:10:38.845 --> 00:10:41.935 I was trying to get to the root cause of my health. 00:10:43.085 --> 00:10:46.525 So I went and saw different flower essence practitioners. 00:10:46.525 --> 00:10:49.365 I worked with an amazing shaman over there in London. 00:10:50.045 --> 00:10:50.995 Rupert Isaacson: And what type of name 00:10:51.035 --> 00:10:52.765 Jane Faulkner: was Yeah, her name was V. 00:10:52.815 --> 00:10:57.905 Mascarelli and she was a French woman and she'd worked with a lot of shamans 00:10:58.095 --> 00:11:00.125 through Africa and South America. 00:11:00.735 --> 00:11:04.885 So we did a lot of vision kind of questing with the drum. 00:11:05.745 --> 00:11:06.600 And yeah. 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.620 For me that work, I just felt like I, I'd come home in that work. 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:15.230 It felt very just, I just felt really comfortable in it when we 00:11:15.940 --> 00:11:17.540 Rupert Isaacson: requested for someone who's never done that. 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:18.170 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 00:11:18.370 --> 00:11:19.770 Rupert Isaacson: And, you know, got to remember a lot of the 00:11:19.770 --> 00:11:21.620 listeners are coming out of. 00:11:22.315 --> 00:11:27.165 You know, perhaps not quite such explorative yeah experiences. 00:11:27.555 --> 00:11:32.435 When, what, describe how, what you saw when you were vision questing 00:11:32.435 --> 00:11:34.105 with a drum, how it helped you. 00:11:34.105 --> 00:11:36.455 Can you be kind of a bit, just specific briefly about that? 00:11:36.475 --> 00:11:37.785 Yeah, sure. 00:11:38.635 --> 00:11:39.375 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah. 00:11:39.415 --> 00:11:43.795 So for me I remember one particular. 00:11:44.695 --> 00:11:49.235 It was like previous lives that I'd had that I went back to. 00:11:49.445 --> 00:11:55.095 So, I remember one of them and I was like a crazy woman. 00:11:55.095 --> 00:12:01.345 I remember had big hair and I was in a cage and I was kind of being taunted. 00:12:01.825 --> 00:12:06.635 And vision questing is kind of weird because you're seeing things and 00:12:06.635 --> 00:12:11.825 you're feeling things and you're having ideas about what these things are. 00:12:12.375 --> 00:12:16.625 And for me, it was like a realization that I think I'd been a medicine woman 00:12:16.625 --> 00:12:20.875 and I'd been kind of persecuted for that. 00:12:21.535 --> 00:12:29.585 And that was super helpful for me to understand because a lot of myself 00:12:29.625 --> 00:12:36.545 before that time, I'd kind of, Kept under wraps and not expressed to others and 00:12:36.595 --> 00:12:42.965 yeah, just never dared share with people or so a lot of my even investigating 00:12:42.965 --> 00:12:47.335 into the different healing arts that I investigated when I lived overseas, 00:12:47.335 --> 00:12:51.335 I didn't share with my nursing friends that I lived with in a flat in London. 00:12:51.975 --> 00:12:55.265 I remember because I was seeing a Chinese herbalist and I would cook the 00:12:55.445 --> 00:13:01.365 herbs up in the flat in London and all my friends thought I was crazy and the 00:13:01.615 --> 00:13:04.055 herbs stunk so they're like oh my god. 00:13:04.955 --> 00:13:06.025 And not just the herbs, all 00:13:06.025 --> 00:13:08.435 Rupert Isaacson: the insect casings and other stuff they give you. 00:13:10.245 --> 00:13:10.915 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:13:11.305 --> 00:13:18.185 So So that was one of the vision, but other vision quests that just 00:13:18.275 --> 00:13:24.935 made feelings I have in this life make sense or made decisions I make 00:13:24.935 --> 00:13:29.415 or ways that I was in the world, it made those ways make sense. 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:38.620 And so in that way, it really helped me and also realizing that I experienced 00:13:38.660 --> 00:13:42.010 that, which led me to do this. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.740 I'm not experiencing that anymore, so I don't need to do this anymore. 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:50.770 So I found it hugely helpful. 00:13:51.700 --> 00:13:54.380 Rupert Isaacson: Was it largely about letting go of things 00:13:54.420 --> 00:13:55.940 that were unhelpful, basically? 00:13:56.105 --> 00:13:56.475 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:13:56.595 --> 00:13:57.185 Yeah. 00:13:57.305 --> 00:13:57.775 Yeah. 00:13:58.155 --> 00:14:01.165 And getting insights into why I was doing those things. 00:14:01.375 --> 00:14:01.495 Can I 00:14:01.505 --> 00:14:03.395 Rupert Isaacson: ask you just before you go to the next phase 00:14:03.395 --> 00:14:07.515 of your, of your life, you said your dad was very stressed out. 00:14:07.515 --> 00:14:07.945 Why? 00:14:07.975 --> 00:14:09.335 What was, what was stressing him? 00:14:09.885 --> 00:14:15.225 Jane Faulkner: He was, so my dad was he was English and he grew up. 00:14:15.485 --> 00:14:16.865 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well that's right there. 00:14:16.865 --> 00:14:17.267 Yeah. 00:14:17.267 --> 00:14:17.670 Sorry. 00:14:17.670 --> 00:14:19.278 Jane Faulkner: I didn't mean that. 00:14:19.278 --> 00:14:20.485 I'm trying to. 00:14:20.645 --> 00:14:22.505 So I think many things. 00:14:22.525 --> 00:14:27.215 So when I think of his life now, like he remembers being eight and hiding 00:14:27.215 --> 00:14:29.595 under a table as the bombs were dropping 00:14:30.055 --> 00:14:30.355 Rupert Isaacson: and then 00:14:30.355 --> 00:14:33.795 Jane Faulkner: his father and then his father died when he was 16. 00:14:34.415 --> 00:14:43.435 And then as he kind of grew up, he went through a divorce and then 00:14:43.635 --> 00:14:47.595 moved out to Australia and kind of had, I guess, four of us kids. 00:14:47.805 --> 00:14:49.305 And I think it was his. 00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:57.780 His stress of providing for us and I also think he was a person 00:14:57.790 --> 00:15:03.460 that struggled to let things go struggled to yeah, struggled. 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:07.310 So he held a lot of emotion in, he didn't really share his, his 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:09.470 challenges or anything like that. 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.830 He just kind of would come home a ball of stress. 00:15:13.930 --> 00:15:18.450 And I think he also had high expectations of, of us kids 00:15:18.550 --> 00:15:21.280 and how we wanted things to be. 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:22.000 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:15:22.930 --> 00:15:23.630 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:15:25.130 --> 00:15:27.110 I was just going to say, he's a beautiful man. 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.690 I think it was yeah, just him not knowing how to process things. 00:15:30.790 --> 00:15:36.400 And then home being the place where He could let out stress or 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:38.150 Rupert Isaacson: what did he do for a living out of interest? 00:15:39.050 --> 00:15:39.270 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:40.890 He was a civil engineer, 00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:46.810 Rupert Isaacson: so lots of responsibility also standing on his 00:15:46.810 --> 00:15:50.670 shoulders for the projects working for the bridges, not falling down 00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:56.340 after they're built, et cetera, which is, which is not inconsiderable. 00:15:56.520 --> 00:16:00.770 And as you, as you say, sort of growing up with the war, the blitz happening 00:16:00.770 --> 00:16:03.530 around them and then post war austerity. 00:16:04.085 --> 00:16:07.375 And I think there was just as, as someone who grew up you know, I'm not 00:16:07.395 --> 00:16:11.915 obviously as old as he was, but I born in the sixties central London what's 00:16:11.915 --> 00:16:15.665 now the financial district of London did not look then like it looks now. 00:16:15.855 --> 00:16:20.585 A lot of it was still bombed flat when I was a kid and we played on the bomb sites. 00:16:21.620 --> 00:16:25.670 And we found all sorts of things because of that archaeological stuff that have 00:16:25.670 --> 00:16:30.380 been thrown up, you know, from the Iron Age onwards, but also lots of fragments 00:16:30.380 --> 00:16:31.570 of bombs and that sort of thing. 00:16:31.570 --> 00:16:35.300 And lots of houses still laid waste and shattered. 00:16:35.680 --> 00:16:37.430 So I can also see how. 00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:42.150 Kids that grew up sort of through the depression and then through the war 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:46.450 and then the post war austerity perhaps coming out to Australia and saying 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:49.460 well, you know you kids have it have it made you're here in the golden land 00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:53.500 and the high expectations You talk about you know, you aren't hampered 00:16:53.500 --> 00:16:56.920 by the things I was hampered with so therefore my expectations of you are 00:16:56.930 --> 00:17:01.050 perhaps Higher than is comfortable. 00:17:01.060 --> 00:17:01.590 Yes. 00:17:01.880 --> 00:17:02.250 Yeah. 00:17:02.270 --> 00:17:06.545 Yeah, I could see and I just wanted to ask you this because you know As 00:17:06.545 --> 00:17:10.065 you know, when any of us are working in the equine assisted world, we 00:17:10.065 --> 00:17:11.395 kind of want to know the picture. 00:17:11.395 --> 00:17:12.975 We want to know the story. 00:17:13.385 --> 00:17:15.385 I always feel the story is where the healing is. 00:17:15.385 --> 00:17:18.675 And if we don't know the background story with our clients or the horses 00:17:18.695 --> 00:17:21.015 we're working with, let alone ourselves. 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:22.300 It's very difficult. 00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:23.680 Do you know what I mean? 00:17:24.370 --> 00:17:24.790 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:26.210 So thank you for just 00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.860 Rupert Isaacson: sharing that because I think that helps inform me 00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:31.110 Jane Faulkner: of 00:17:31.110 --> 00:17:31.430 Rupert Isaacson: where you get. 00:17:32.290 --> 00:17:38.270 So you're in, you're in London and you're, you're cooking up beetle casings and toad. 00:17:38.270 --> 00:17:43.720 And you're also going to see a show, but you're also working 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:45.230 in as a, as a nurse in clinics. 00:17:45.790 --> 00:17:46.190 Yes. 00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:47.070 What happens to you next? 00:17:48.755 --> 00:17:55.805 Jane Faulkner: So from there, I go to India and I so in, yeah, in London, 00:17:55.825 --> 00:18:01.105 so I used to be a runner and I used to run around Kensington park every day. 00:18:01.135 --> 00:18:02.155 And then I got shin splints. 00:18:02.975 --> 00:18:04.165 I couldn't run anymore. 00:18:04.255 --> 00:18:07.985 And I was like, oh, man, I, I, I'm a person that really 00:18:07.985 --> 00:18:09.395 likes to move every day. 00:18:10.065 --> 00:18:13.915 And there was a yoga sign and I was like, Oh, I've heard about this yoga. 00:18:14.045 --> 00:18:14.765 I might give it a go. 00:18:15.305 --> 00:18:18.785 So I went to a yoga class and it was awesome. 00:18:18.855 --> 00:18:19.985 And I just loved it. 00:18:20.075 --> 00:18:24.935 And so I started going to yoga every day and yoga wasn't cool back then. 00:18:24.935 --> 00:18:27.545 And the internet hadn't really started 00:18:29.585 --> 00:18:30.955 old back in the old days. 00:18:31.405 --> 00:18:35.735 And So I asked the teacher, you know, where can I learn this and 00:18:35.765 --> 00:18:38.085 they told me about a place in India. 00:18:38.085 --> 00:18:44.245 So I went to India, studied yoga over there which was a huge eye opener for me. 00:18:44.245 --> 00:18:48.865 I really wasn't expecting India to be like it was. 00:18:49.435 --> 00:18:50.325 I'd been through Europe. 00:18:50.325 --> 00:18:50.515 That's 00:18:50.515 --> 00:18:51.995 Rupert Isaacson: another big blanket statement as someone 00:18:51.995 --> 00:18:53.265 who's lived in India myself. 00:18:53.835 --> 00:18:55.065 I want you to go into some details. 00:18:55.095 --> 00:18:56.275 Also, what kind of yoga? 00:18:57.645 --> 00:19:02.315 Jane Faulkner: So back then to start with, it was half the yoga back then at the 00:19:02.315 --> 00:19:04.755 Shivananda ashram and I loved the ashram. 00:19:04.765 --> 00:19:10.535 But for me, I remember arriving in India and I hadn't planned anything because 00:19:10.535 --> 00:19:13.925 my brother and I had backpacked and we'd just arrived somewhere and pulled 00:19:13.925 --> 00:19:19.705 out the Lonely Planet book and gone and got a hostel and anyway, I remember 00:19:19.705 --> 00:19:24.075 getting to India and getting out of the plane and thinking in the plane, 00:19:24.085 --> 00:19:26.085 thinking I'll just sit in the lounge. 00:19:26.540 --> 00:19:30.140 And go through my lonely planet and work out where I'm going to stay. 00:19:30.690 --> 00:19:33.850 I remember arriving in India and there was no lounge. 00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:35.870 It was just literally. 00:19:37.610 --> 00:19:39.550 Rupert Isaacson: And that smell as you get off the plane. 00:19:40.050 --> 00:19:40.660 Yes. 00:19:41.110 --> 00:19:44.900 The smell of like urine of 8 million people. 00:19:45.110 --> 00:19:47.190 You can almost smell the plane comes down. 00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:48.350 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:51.490 Jane Faulkner: And then all these people, all these Indian 00:19:51.550 --> 00:19:53.970 rickshaw drivers just around me. 00:19:54.070 --> 00:19:55.420 And I, I. 00:19:55.830 --> 00:19:56.650 Totally. 00:19:56.900 --> 00:19:57.080 Yeah. 00:19:57.090 --> 00:19:58.290 I was terrified. 00:19:58.310 --> 00:20:04.340 So I went up to all these other Western women and I was like, where are you going? 00:20:04.340 --> 00:20:05.460 Can I come with you? 00:20:05.790 --> 00:20:06.110 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:07.070 Very, very 00:20:07.070 --> 00:20:07.430 Jane Faulkner: wise. 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:07.710 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:20:09.020 --> 00:20:12.230 Jane Faulkner: Luckily, one of the women said, yep, you can come with me. 00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:15.590 She was a medical student and she was over there to work in hospital. 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.610 So I went with her and I remember just the shock. 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:20.630 So it was about 3 a. 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:20.650 m. 00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:21.840 in the morning over there. 00:20:22.310 --> 00:20:23.530 The shock of 00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:24.280 Rupert Isaacson: when the plane got in. 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:26.900 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah, 00:20:27.090 --> 00:20:27.850 Rupert Isaacson: dangerous time. 00:20:27.850 --> 00:20:28.455 Yeah. 00:20:28.455 --> 00:20:29.060 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:20:29.060 --> 00:20:29.770 Yeah. 00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:35.340 So, and I remember, yeah, just driving through the streets and seeing bodies 00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:41.060 on the ground and you know, beggars on, you know, that those wooden slats with 00:20:41.070 --> 00:20:46.770 the wheels underneath and, and just that the shock of that in my system. 00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:47.770 And. 00:20:48.845 --> 00:20:56.125 Yeah, so, and then we were in the local YHA and I didn't leave the hotel 00:20:56.555 --> 00:20:58.695 the next day I was so frightened. 00:20:59.205 --> 00:21:05.865 I remember just eating like the plainest biscuits and being very scared. 00:21:06.275 --> 00:21:07.725 And then Was that in 00:21:07.995 --> 00:21:10.742 Rupert Isaacson: Bombay, now Mumbai, or was that No, 00:21:10.742 --> 00:21:12.717 Jane Faulkner: it was Chennai. 00:21:12.717 --> 00:21:13.375 Mumbai. 00:21:13.655 --> 00:21:14.045 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:21:14.095 --> 00:21:14.635 Madras. 00:21:14.695 --> 00:21:15.165 Madras. 00:21:15.165 --> 00:21:15.665 Yeah. 00:21:15.725 --> 00:21:15.945 Yeah. 00:21:15.945 --> 00:21:16.075 Yeah. 00:21:16.075 --> 00:21:16.625 Yeah. 00:21:16.665 --> 00:21:17.425 So, not even a huge venue. 00:21:17.425 --> 00:21:19.225 Hot, humid, crowded, crazy. 00:21:19.255 --> 00:21:19.575 Yeah. 00:21:19.695 --> 00:21:19.925 Yeah. 00:21:20.355 --> 00:21:20.915 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:21:21.015 --> 00:21:21.395 Yeah. 00:21:21.905 --> 00:21:22.255 Yeah. 00:21:22.255 --> 00:21:25.715 And then getting the, I think I've got the train down to Kerala, 00:21:26.565 --> 00:21:29.185 which was where the ashram was. 00:21:29.925 --> 00:21:32.925 And I'm, I remember arriving at the ashram. 00:21:32.925 --> 00:21:35.055 I can't remember much about the train trip. 00:21:35.055 --> 00:21:37.005 I was probably terrified the whole time. 00:21:37.055 --> 00:21:39.985 But I remember arriving at the ashram and they were chanting. 00:21:40.215 --> 00:21:43.065 And I remember thinking, Oh my God, this is a cult. 00:21:43.295 --> 00:21:48.105 And just being really worried about what I'd shown up to. 00:21:48.635 --> 00:21:53.285 And then I think the next day the training started and I just loved it. 00:21:53.285 --> 00:21:55.275 It was people from all over the world. 00:21:55.985 --> 00:21:58.165 It was a huge group of people in this training. 00:21:58.785 --> 00:22:02.455 And yeah, just learning all about yogic philosophy. 00:22:02.615 --> 00:22:03.105 And. 00:22:04.205 --> 00:22:05.995 just living in that ashram life. 00:22:06.075 --> 00:22:07.465 I just, I loved it. 00:22:07.465 --> 00:22:07.555 For 00:22:08.205 --> 00:22:10.735 Rupert Isaacson: those people who have never lived in an ashram 00:22:11.215 --> 00:22:12.735 and don't know what that entails. 00:22:13.545 --> 00:22:23.045 Can you tell us, walk us through a day in an ashram and, and with the yoga 00:22:23.045 --> 00:22:24.685 practice, when, what is it doing for you? 00:22:24.685 --> 00:22:25.665 What's happening in your body? 00:22:25.665 --> 00:22:26.585 What's happening in your brain? 00:22:26.815 --> 00:22:27.915 Why is this good for you? 00:22:28.755 --> 00:22:29.375 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:22:29.955 --> 00:22:34.005 So you would, we would start the day early. 00:22:34.015 --> 00:22:39.005 So with sunrise and we would go into the big hall and meditate. 00:22:39.645 --> 00:22:42.045 So we'd sit in silence for an hour. 00:22:42.545 --> 00:22:45.105 And then we would chant. 00:22:45.815 --> 00:22:54.855 So, we would chant all these different mantras and kind of, 00:22:56.085 --> 00:22:57.745 ah, they're not called songs. 00:22:57.745 --> 00:22:58.405 What are they called? 00:22:58.405 --> 00:22:59.945 My brain's Yeah. 00:22:59.965 --> 00:23:00.825 Well, helping me. 00:23:00.825 --> 00:23:01.085 Yeah. 00:23:01.645 --> 00:23:05.655 But, but, but different, different kind of, yeah, mantras 00:23:05.655 --> 00:23:07.925 mostly and the mantras, old 00:23:07.935 --> 00:23:09.015 Rupert Isaacson: Sanskrit language 00:23:09.095 --> 00:23:10.825 Jane Faulkner: in the old Sanskrit language. 00:23:10.845 --> 00:23:11.095 Yeah. 00:23:11.095 --> 00:23:15.375 So we would have a little, a chanting book and we would chant straight 00:23:15.375 --> 00:23:22.275 from that book and, and the different mantras have different benefits. 00:23:22.855 --> 00:23:24.775 So I know anytime we got in. 00:23:26.425 --> 00:23:29.615 When we got into the bus to travel, we would chant a mantra 00:23:29.645 --> 00:23:31.215 before we kind of traveled. 00:23:31.255 --> 00:23:34.155 But yeah, so we'd start with that meditation. 00:23:34.225 --> 00:23:34.885 Then we would. 00:23:35.620 --> 00:23:39.290 Do the chanting for an hour and a half, and then we would do 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:40.870 our practice, our yoga practice. 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:44.790 And that I think went for another hour and a half, and then we would have breakfast. 00:23:44.990 --> 00:23:48.430 Then we would have Karma yoga, which is like jobs. 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.250 Mine was to clean the toilet with a bit of coconut rusk. 00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:53.770 That was interesting. 00:23:53.780 --> 00:23:55.210 Yeah, it was pretty harsh. 00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:58.610 And then we had yogic philosophy. 00:23:58.660 --> 00:24:00.870 So we would learn about yogic philosophy. 00:24:01.885 --> 00:24:04.775 Then I think we had a few hours off in the afternoon. 00:24:04.945 --> 00:24:09.835 Then we'd have another hour and a half chant and then more meditation and 00:24:09.835 --> 00:24:15.795 then more of a kind of yogic discourse of an evening and then go to bed. 00:24:16.545 --> 00:24:20.505 Rupert Isaacson: So, when people are, the reason I'm wanting to pause 00:24:20.525 --> 00:24:24.935 here in India at this ashram for a moment is I think it can be difficult 00:24:24.935 --> 00:24:26.355 for Westerners to understand. 00:24:26.765 --> 00:24:32.305 That's for example, if you, but if you, one replaces the word mantra 00:24:32.315 --> 00:24:38.755 with the word Psalm or one replaces the word chant with the word pray. 00:24:39.425 --> 00:24:45.235 And as a kid who grew up somewhat against my will as a chorister in the 00:24:45.235 --> 00:24:49.665 temple church in, in London, you know, the call and response of the Psalms 00:24:49.665 --> 00:24:54.095 and, you know, God be with you and with thy spirit and all of that stuff. 00:24:54.295 --> 00:24:55.515 We can sort of assimilate. 00:24:55.965 --> 00:24:58.375 Whether we like it or not as Westerners because we're 00:24:58.375 --> 00:24:59.575 familiar with it it's around us. 00:24:59.875 --> 00:25:03.175 And then we go out to, we see people in India, you know, with the shaved 00:25:03.175 --> 00:25:11.125 head and a dot between their eyes and a body that is different to ours because 00:25:11.155 --> 00:25:18.690 they're they're sitting there in a, in a, in a, Doty, you know, a cloth 00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:23.030 instead of a pair of pants and, you know, a string that we wonder what that 00:25:23.030 --> 00:25:24.880 string means that's around their torso. 00:25:24.940 --> 00:25:26.950 And so it all looks very, very different. 00:25:27.270 --> 00:25:31.930 But in fact, they're praying, and they're singing and, and, and, 00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:36.440 of course, with even within the Western traditions, meditation is a. 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:38.120 has been a thing forever. 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:39.380 To quiet the mind. 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.130 Okay, we could see the benefits of that. 00:25:41.750 --> 00:25:45.270 One of the things which I think is not talked about much is the benefits 00:25:45.270 --> 00:25:47.250 of chanting and singing and mantras. 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:52.460 Why they work, whether it's people talking about, say, law of attraction 00:25:52.510 --> 00:25:57.550 and Uh, affirmations, you know, putting an affirmation on your mirror, I am 00:25:57.550 --> 00:26:02.620 worthy, or you are beautiful, or I am a money magnet, or whatever it is. 00:26:02.840 --> 00:26:07.440 But this other thing about chanting peace into the world, and I know, 00:26:07.810 --> 00:26:10.810 you know, like the, the Rastafarians talk about chanting down Babylon, 00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.140 you know, bring it, chanting. 00:26:14.085 --> 00:26:19.025 Evil from the world and sort of putting good into the world and then the 00:26:19.635 --> 00:26:26.375 vibrations of within the body of these ways of breathing that create the mantras 00:26:26.375 --> 00:26:31.065 and the chants seem to have incredibly beneficial effects on both our brainwaves. 00:26:31.115 --> 00:26:34.825 They put EEGs on people's heads and and the immune system and so on, 00:26:34.955 --> 00:26:36.085 but this is often not talked about. 00:26:36.085 --> 00:26:38.805 And that's why I just wanted to pause here and say, you know, 00:26:38.815 --> 00:26:40.695 it's not just navel gazing, right? 00:26:41.665 --> 00:26:42.825 Jane Faulkner: No, no, not at all. 00:26:43.225 --> 00:26:47.545 And I think of the wisdom of these ancient cultures. 00:26:47.725 --> 00:26:54.125 And so I know with the, in the Sanskrit language, the different sounds have, 00:26:54.205 --> 00:26:57.705 they believe have a different impact on different parts of our body. 00:26:57.775 --> 00:27:02.765 So different sounds correlate to supporting different chakras. 00:27:03.385 --> 00:27:09.115 And I guess for me back then, so I was 22 I just know how I used to feel 00:27:09.115 --> 00:27:14.975 at the end of chanting, like my mind would clear, my heart would feel open. 00:27:15.975 --> 00:27:18.145 I would just feel connected and free. 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:23.450 So, and when I think about it, I thought the yoga asana would have 00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:28.000 the biggest impact or the meditation, but it was definitely the chanting 00:27:28.230 --> 00:27:29.940 that had the biggest impact. 00:27:29.950 --> 00:27:33.900 And especially, I think there was a group of 200 of us. 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:39.020 And so all of us chanting and it was powerful. 00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:40.730 It was really, really powerful. 00:27:41.570 --> 00:27:41.790 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:27:41.790 --> 00:27:44.540 And was it Nikola Tesla who said, if you want to. 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:49.580 Understand the mysteries that the universe think in terms of frequency and vibration. 00:27:50.570 --> 00:27:53.120 And of course, what is that, but frequency and vibration, I guess. 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:54.690 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:27:54.870 --> 00:27:55.300 Yeah. 00:27:55.300 --> 00:28:01.630 And I think I feel like I'm loving actually that science feels like 00:28:01.630 --> 00:28:08.785 it's catching up to a lot of these beliefs and practices that 00:28:09.845 --> 00:28:11.715 Indigenous cultures have had forever. 00:28:11.995 --> 00:28:12.225 Yeah. 00:28:12.245 --> 00:28:14.825 That kind of help us be whole humans. 00:28:15.695 --> 00:28:21.545 And it kind of humors me a little bit that Western culture needs to wait for this 00:28:23.605 --> 00:28:24.445 to 00:28:25.705 --> 00:28:26.045 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 00:28:26.745 --> 00:28:28.275 Jane Faulkner: believe it's real or okay. 00:28:28.275 --> 00:28:28.555 Or. 00:28:29.110 --> 00:28:31.000 Rupert Isaacson: Well, the Catholic church was a powerful thing, Jane, 00:28:33.370 --> 00:28:34.180 Jane Faulkner: wasn't it? 00:28:34.350 --> 00:28:35.280 It really was. 00:28:36.470 --> 00:28:37.360 Yeah. 00:28:37.630 --> 00:28:43.490 I'm I'm realizing more and more each day, just how powerful the systems 00:28:43.860 --> 00:28:45.490 that have governed our lives are. 00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:46.220 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:28:46.220 --> 00:28:48.030 Absolutely. 00:28:48.030 --> 00:28:53.250 You know, I don't know if you're aware that in the, in the 11th century in 00:28:53.250 --> 00:29:00.405 Europe, there was a huge surge of mysticism within Christianity and figures 00:29:00.405 --> 00:29:06.410 like Hildegard of Bingen who was the first, you know, female gynecologist, 00:29:06.450 --> 00:29:13.010 the first, she's still the most published female composer, I think, of all time. 00:29:13.050 --> 00:29:14.830 All her stuff is still out there in print. 00:29:15.210 --> 00:29:20.420 She books on herbalism, but she also had crusades sent against her and her 00:29:20.420 --> 00:29:25.230 nunnery and managed to fight them off because the local people were so reliant 00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:27.070 on the medicine that she and her. 00:29:28.665 --> 00:29:31.765 sisters were producing and then she managed to make friends 00:29:31.775 --> 00:29:34.685 with the Holy Roman Emperor and sort of find safety this way. 00:29:34.945 --> 00:29:39.895 But it in this sort of went on and then in by the 16th century the church was 00:29:39.895 --> 00:29:42.365 actually banning A lot of the chants 00:29:43.685 --> 00:29:44.155 Jane Faulkner: that 00:29:44.285 --> 00:29:47.675 Rupert Isaacson: were on a six note scale that people like Hildegard Bingen 00:29:47.675 --> 00:29:50.885 were using because people were saying, well, with this we feel so connected to 00:29:50.885 --> 00:29:52.205 God, we sort of don't need the church. 00:29:53.245 --> 00:29:54.565 That was not good news for the church. 00:29:55.095 --> 00:29:58.979 So, yes, as you say, the desire for control before you even get 00:29:58.979 --> 00:30:02.020 to things like witch burning, and you know you're talking about. 00:30:02.470 --> 00:30:07.330 a past life, you know, vision, experience in your shamanic thing of perhaps being 00:30:07.330 --> 00:30:09.370 a medicine woman who was persecuted. 00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:14.300 And that must be in the ancestral lines of so many women in our culture and men. 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:17.640 We live, we live where I'm interviewing you here. 00:30:18.110 --> 00:30:21.180 If I look to the North through the window, I look towards a town called Itchstein. 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:24.040 I'm in Germany, which has a witch's tower. 00:30:24.570 --> 00:30:25.530 where they were all kept. 00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:28.550 There's a memorial with the names, because they kept the names, of 00:30:28.550 --> 00:30:30.630 all the people that were burned, and half of them were men. 00:30:31.120 --> 00:30:34.690 But yes, anyone, anyone with any sort of connection to God. 00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:37.850 So you're saying, you know, you find it funny that we're having, science is 00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:43.310 having to catch up in Western culture, but of course we killed science, didn't we? 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:45.240 We killed science along with spirituality. 00:30:46.155 --> 00:30:46.585 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:30:46.585 --> 00:30:46.845 Yeah. 00:30:46.845 --> 00:30:49.615 The true science where you can think. 00:30:49.615 --> 00:30:54.265 And it's interesting as I hear you talking, I'm thinking of the First 00:30:54.265 --> 00:30:59.365 Nations people here in Australia and their ways and their connection 00:30:59.365 --> 00:31:05.835 to country and their, their deep spiritual connection and insight. 00:31:06.045 --> 00:31:06.555 And. 00:31:07.205 --> 00:31:13.025 How, when the white man came over here, how threatened white 00:31:13.025 --> 00:31:17.265 people were of those first night, that first nation spirituality. 00:31:18.105 --> 00:31:21.895 And I was working with amazing first nations elder. 00:31:21.905 --> 00:31:26.545 I did some of the, some training with her just on how first nations 00:31:26.545 --> 00:31:28.715 people view spirituality and how. 00:31:29.300 --> 00:31:36.400 They work spiritually and she was saying how, when the white man came and 00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:43.990 started to kind of see the First Nations magic and spirituality, how the First 00:31:43.990 --> 00:31:52.250 Nations people actually made decisions to shut down different aspects of their 00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:59.150 spirituality to kind of keep themselves safe because it was such a threat to. 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.230 Yeah, the white people that had come. 00:32:05.520 --> 00:32:05.820 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:06.680 Absolutely. 00:32:07.220 --> 00:32:12.410 And I think that's a, that's a, that's a tale that could be told from any 00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:13.160 Jane Faulkner: everywhere 00:32:13.870 --> 00:32:17.250 Rupert Isaacson: culture that was impacted by the colonial experience. 00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:19.490 And the colonial experience, of course, wasn't just white. 00:32:19.540 --> 00:32:23.280 You know, it's happened from Asian country to Asian country. 00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:26.260 It's happened within Africa, from African to African, it's happened. 00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:29.550 But obviously the big one was what exploded out of Europe. 00:32:30.100 --> 00:32:33.490 Jane Faulkner: Sorry, 00:32:33.770 --> 00:32:34.070 Rupert Isaacson: what 00:32:34.070 --> 00:32:39.340 Jane Faulkner: I, what I am loving is in Australia I feel like there's an 00:32:39.340 --> 00:32:47.680 awareness of that our systems are broken, so our health school, and I'm loving 00:32:47.690 --> 00:32:52.410 that we're getting more and more curious about our first nations people's systems. 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:57.320 And so it's kind of in Australia, we're starting to see this. 00:32:57.630 --> 00:33:03.950 blossoming and this curiosity and this an openness now, which, and, and 00:33:03.950 --> 00:33:10.990 a respect for First Nations culture and ways, which I'm really loving. 00:33:12.570 --> 00:33:16.605 Rupert Isaacson: So, Well, I want to return to this a little bit later because 00:33:16.605 --> 00:33:21.365 I, I have a very profound experience with my autistic son, with the cuckoo 00:33:21.365 --> 00:33:24.715 langi or up in the Daintree rainforest. 00:33:25.195 --> 00:33:25.255 Wow. 00:33:25.255 --> 00:33:26.215 A very profound healing. 00:33:26.215 --> 00:33:28.345 But, so yes, I'm absolutely with you. 00:33:28.445 --> 00:33:28.595 So 00:33:29.015 --> 00:33:30.335 Jane Faulkner: before you move on, yeah. 00:33:30.395 --> 00:33:33.335 We have a cultural advisor and they are people. 00:33:34.315 --> 00:33:34.765 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:33:35.550 --> 00:33:39.000 Then we, we, she probably knows the healer that healed my son. 00:33:39.270 --> 00:33:39.290 She 00:33:39.290 --> 00:33:39.880 Jane Faulkner: probably does. 00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:40.840 She's amazing. 00:33:40.850 --> 00:33:41.160 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:42.040 We'll talk 00:33:42.040 --> 00:33:42.640 Jane Faulkner: about that. 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:43.240 Quite a 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:43.840 Rupert Isaacson: small world. 00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:44.740 Yes, it is. 00:33:44.790 --> 00:33:45.220 Okay. 00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:50.520 So you're in India, you're, you're finding that the chanting, that quieting the 00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:54.220 mind, the cleansing of the body through the chanting, that obviously the yoga 00:33:54.260 --> 00:33:57.970 practice is good for your body as well as your mind, you're, you're, but you're in 00:33:58.040 --> 00:34:01.905 somewhat of a, ivory tower in an ashram. 00:34:02.115 --> 00:34:08.765 One is protected from the seething, you know, milestone of humanity that you saw 00:34:08.765 --> 00:34:12.505 at three in the morning when you're coming off that plane and had to humble yourself 00:34:12.505 --> 00:34:14.625 to actually ask for help from a stranger. 00:34:15.475 --> 00:34:16.995 I basically say, I don't know what I'm doing. 00:34:17.345 --> 00:34:19.215 Please help me out, which must have been very humbling. 00:34:19.375 --> 00:34:23.185 To a tough Aussie, you know, to actually say, you know, look, sorry, 00:34:23.185 --> 00:34:24.885 I'm lost, can you help me out? 00:34:25.235 --> 00:34:28.315 I actually, I made a little note there saying, you know, that was, that was, 00:34:28.995 --> 00:34:32.195 that was a moment of humility, which is, must have resonated with you. 00:34:32.765 --> 00:34:35.105 But then, okay, so you're in this ivory tower, you're having 00:34:35.105 --> 00:34:36.085 this wonderful experience. 00:34:36.975 --> 00:34:39.455 How do you parlay that then into your next experience? 00:34:40.375 --> 00:34:40.905 Jane Faulkner: Hmm. 00:34:41.555 --> 00:34:46.665 So from that ashram where I went to another ashram called Alma's. 00:34:46.715 --> 00:34:47.545 I, have you heard of that? 00:34:47.545 --> 00:34:51.845 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:34:51.845 --> 00:34:55.415 Jane Faulkner: So I went to her ashram and that was very different. 00:34:55.455 --> 00:34:59.115 It wasn't a protected ivory tower and that was quite a shock. 00:34:59.125 --> 00:35:03.875 And what shocked me around that was how indoctrinated the people were. 00:35:04.575 --> 00:35:06.835 And that sounded terrible, didn't it? 00:35:09.150 --> 00:35:16.020 Yeah, so how how if Amma was somewhere where a crowd just chased to get to 00:35:16.020 --> 00:35:22.810 where she was and for me, it didn't, it didn't feel good to see people doing 00:35:22.810 --> 00:35:27.670 that, to see people not having their, not in their own sovereignty, you 00:35:27.670 --> 00:35:33.030 know, to kind of, and to, to kind of be worshipping this other human, I couldn't. 00:35:33.645 --> 00:35:35.175 I couldn't get my head around it. 00:35:35.175 --> 00:35:36.175 Did you get to meet 00:35:36.175 --> 00:35:37.455 Rupert Isaacson: her at all, Amma? 00:35:37.635 --> 00:35:38.315 Jane Faulkner: I did. 00:35:38.355 --> 00:35:40.815 I got to meet her and give her a hug. 00:35:41.145 --> 00:35:44.605 And she asked me to, you know, she asked people to sit behind her. 00:35:44.755 --> 00:35:48.515 So I sat behind her and yeah, and I could feel that. 00:35:48.515 --> 00:35:52.825 I could feel that, um, this, her beautiful spirit. 00:35:52.945 --> 00:35:54.025 I could feel that. 00:35:55.330 --> 00:36:01.790 I feel, I, I dunno, I just, um, what I want to, I feel like I didn't, I, 00:36:01.890 --> 00:36:03.530 I didn't feel blinded by it though. 00:36:03.720 --> 00:36:07.500 And that's what I couldn't understand with a lot of that. 00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:15.340 The other people that were blinded to the humanity around them and they would 00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:18.310 do whatever they could to be near Amma. 00:36:18.830 --> 00:36:23.460 And for me, I'm like, I was just like, This isn't congruent, you know, you're 00:36:24.120 --> 00:36:29.590 chanting and wanting to be like Ama and yet you'll push people out of the road and 00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:32.250 you, you won't care how you get near her. 00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:39.840 So I couldn't kind of, I couldn't understand how all of that was together 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.120 in, in this place, if that makes sense. 00:36:42.735 --> 00:36:43.185 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:36:43.955 --> 00:36:44.865 So how did you end up, 00:36:47.155 --> 00:36:48.625 everyone in India goes through this. 00:36:49.085 --> 00:36:53.415 How did, what was the way you ended up coming to terms with 00:36:53.565 --> 00:36:57.845 paradox and ambiguity, which India shoves firmly into one's face? 00:36:58.725 --> 00:36:59.755 Jane Faulkner: It really does. 00:37:00.275 --> 00:37:01.585 Gosh, how did I, 00:37:04.725 --> 00:37:11.145 I think I learned to just watch, sit back, watch, get curious. 00:37:12.855 --> 00:37:12.945 Get 00:37:12.945 --> 00:37:14.385 Rupert Isaacson: curious is a good, that's a good. 00:37:15.225 --> 00:37:15.425 Yeah. 00:37:15.725 --> 00:37:16.415 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:37:16.415 --> 00:37:16.755 Yeah. 00:37:16.755 --> 00:37:23.885 Get really curious and kind of not overthink it. 00:37:24.625 --> 00:37:26.325 So get curious. 00:37:26.405 --> 00:37:26.665 Notice. 00:37:27.755 --> 00:37:32.215 And then yeah, make it, make the next decision that felt right for myself. 00:37:32.915 --> 00:37:35.885 So I didn't stay in Amma's ashram long. 00:37:36.085 --> 00:37:38.695 I, I struggled too much with that. 00:37:39.335 --> 00:37:42.755 Yeah, that, how paradoxical it was. 00:37:43.075 --> 00:37:47.755 I was just like, oh, this isn't, it just didn't feel right for me. 00:37:48.470 --> 00:37:55.000 Yeah, so after there, I went back to London and nursed a little more and then 00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.330 my brother and I went to South America and we spent three months in South 00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:03.770 America, just kind of, starting up in Ecuador and then moving down through 00:38:03.770 --> 00:38:07.605 Peru, across Bolivia and through Rio. 00:38:08.315 --> 00:38:11.175 And that was another eye opening experience. 00:38:11.205 --> 00:38:14.925 I, I realized I'm, I was very naive person. 00:38:15.015 --> 00:38:18.115 Like, again, I remember being on the plane, reading the Lonely Planet 00:38:18.165 --> 00:38:25.345 and seeing all these warnings for kidnappings and all of that kind of stuff. 00:38:25.445 --> 00:38:30.105 But we arrived in Quito in Ecuador and. 00:38:31.815 --> 00:38:36.025 I so we learned Spanish over there because people weren't able to speak 00:38:36.025 --> 00:38:44.845 English and we went to the very top of Ecuador to the Ecuadorian Colombian 00:38:44.845 --> 00:38:51.725 border and we went deep into the Amazon with a guide and stayed in 00:38:51.725 --> 00:38:54.005 the Amazon I think it was for a week. 00:38:54.770 --> 00:39:01.860 And that was an amazing experience, just kind of staying like really deep in. 00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:05.330 Cause I remember it took us two days to get where we went. 00:39:05.350 --> 00:39:09.200 And I remember the water of the Amazon river getting clearer and cleaner. 00:39:09.210 --> 00:39:13.080 And yeah, and just kind of, there was my brother and I and another 00:39:13.090 --> 00:39:19.790 couple, and we stayed with a family in, in deep in the jungle there. 00:39:20.410 --> 00:39:23.090 And South America, again, for me, it was. 00:39:23.310 --> 00:39:29.870 It was quite shocking and I think it was in a different way to India, India. 00:39:30.510 --> 00:39:36.320 Didn't, I think the spirituality of India, I couldn't, it wasn't so much 00:39:36.330 --> 00:39:41.310 evident in South America and life felt cheap in South America, you know, people 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:47.550 had guns and I felt a bit like a walking ATM machine, you know, like people would 00:39:47.550 --> 00:39:49.730 kind of beg and and it just felt like. 00:39:50.110 --> 00:39:52.760 You know, the different drug mafia and stuff like that. 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:53.980 We, we kind of went, 00:39:56.690 --> 00:39:58.770 yeah, a little bit off the beaten track. 00:39:58.780 --> 00:40:02.550 And so, had a few frightening encounters with different. 00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:07.970 People dressed up as the army with machine guns across their 00:40:07.970 --> 00:40:09.610 chest and things like that. 00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:14.730 And I look back now and, and think, wow, that was an amazing, like 00:40:14.730 --> 00:40:18.030 I tell my kids stories and it's like, man, did I really do that? 00:40:18.070 --> 00:40:20.170 Cause it was quite an amazing adventure. 00:40:20.170 --> 00:40:21.930 I'm really grateful for the experience. 00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:26.010 I remember at the time I was reading a book called how to live 00:40:26.010 --> 00:40:27.820 this year, as if it's your last. 00:40:29.140 --> 00:40:32.920 And it was actually really helpful because every day felt like. 00:40:33.610 --> 00:40:34.890 I could have died today. 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.580 Like, I remember being on a bus again in the middle of the night and there 00:40:38.580 --> 00:40:44.300 was a massive landslide and we were on a bus full of smugglers that had so 00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:48.730 they were miners, but they had smuggled a lot of birds into their pockets 00:40:48.730 --> 00:40:50.710 and into bags and stuff like that. 00:40:51.180 --> 00:40:54.710 And when we'd come to a checkpoint and my brother and I had to get out 00:40:55.010 --> 00:40:57.230 and they just had to check our papers. 00:40:57.980 --> 00:41:02.520 And seeing the the police or whoever it was getting on with the dog and 00:41:02.670 --> 00:41:05.615 walking up and down through the bus and you could hear the birds. 00:41:05.955 --> 00:41:10.945 And then just getting off and us keeping on going and apparently one 00:41:10.945 --> 00:41:12.775 of our guides had dogged them in. 00:41:12.875 --> 00:41:16.785 And so we had the rest of this bus trip with all of these people 00:41:16.785 --> 00:41:18.505 that had smuggled these birds. 00:41:19.145 --> 00:41:22.605 And we got to this point where there was a massive mudslide. 00:41:22.605 --> 00:41:26.175 We had to all get off the bus and walk across and around 00:41:26.175 --> 00:41:28.595 where the rest of the road was. 00:41:29.430 --> 00:41:34.510 And I just remember the whole time, my senses being heightened, you know, 00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:41.680 me really being aware of yeah, life and how precious it was and not having 00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:46.410 much else in my mind, but who's around me, what am I doing, where am I going, 00:41:46.970 --> 00:41:48.585 it's those basic kind of things. 00:41:49.555 --> 00:41:50.395 Survival. 00:41:50.865 --> 00:41:51.985 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, absolutely. 00:41:52.715 --> 00:41:56.405 I can relate to that having had a few of those myself. 00:41:56.515 --> 00:42:00.155 Okay, so you're, you're in you're in South America, you survive it. 00:42:00.575 --> 00:42:02.395 Life is cheap but life is wonderful. 00:42:02.545 --> 00:42:03.265 It's scary. 00:42:03.955 --> 00:42:09.285 You realize that you were perhaps taking some risks that you're a bit lucky you. 00:42:09.750 --> 00:42:10.390 Didn't pay for. 00:42:11.080 --> 00:42:11.320 Jane Faulkner: And 00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:14.590 Rupert Isaacson: then I presume you come back to London or back 00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:15.750 to Australia at this point. 00:42:16.540 --> 00:42:18.110 Jane Faulkner: No, I came back to London. 00:42:18.750 --> 00:42:21.780 And, and then realized I needed to go home. 00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:24.260 I needed to feel anchored to something. 00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:26.520 So I came back home went back to nursing. 00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:29.090 It just didn't fit me anymore. 00:42:29.550 --> 00:42:31.450 So I looked into other things. 00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:36.490 Did studied Hawaiian massage for a while and then did a two 00:42:36.490 --> 00:42:42.900 year long yoga apprenticeship and that was again, every day. 00:42:44.215 --> 00:42:47.565 Two hours of yoga, meditation, assisting teachers. 00:42:47.585 --> 00:42:50.080 So it was a real life of yoga for two 00:42:50.080 --> 00:42:50.665 Rupert Isaacson: years. 00:42:50.665 --> 00:42:53.895 Jane Faulkner: And that was life changing for me. 00:42:54.375 --> 00:43:00.535 So in a really good way just helped me really become aware of my thoughts and. 00:43:03.035 --> 00:43:05.955 It's a process, I guess, of just looking at yourself all the time. 00:43:06.065 --> 00:43:08.015 Rupert Isaacson: And you're still making your living at this point as a nurse? 00:43:08.595 --> 00:43:09.635 That's how you're paying the bills? 00:43:10.405 --> 00:43:13.845 Jane Faulkner: No, then I was massaging while I was doing my yoga apprenticeship. 00:43:13.845 --> 00:43:14.535 Okay, okay, so 00:43:14.545 --> 00:43:17.775 Rupert Isaacson: you've actually now switched to a full massage professional. 00:43:18.375 --> 00:43:18.715 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:43:18.935 --> 00:43:19.515 Yeah. 00:43:19.555 --> 00:43:19.815 Yeah. 00:43:19.925 --> 00:43:19.965 That's 00:43:20.005 --> 00:43:21.195 Rupert Isaacson: not inconsiderable. 00:43:21.605 --> 00:43:22.795 And doing that in London. 00:43:23.895 --> 00:43:25.135 Jane Faulkner: No, I'd come back to Australia. 00:43:25.135 --> 00:43:25.405 Okay. 00:43:25.405 --> 00:43:25.675 Okay. 00:43:25.675 --> 00:43:25.825 Right. 00:43:25.825 --> 00:43:27.665 Rupert Isaacson: Nursing 00:43:27.665 --> 00:43:29.005 Jane Faulkner: was London. 00:43:29.105 --> 00:43:29.525 Yeah. 00:43:30.015 --> 00:43:30.325 London 00:43:30.325 --> 00:43:31.505 Rupert Isaacson: is so expensive to live in. 00:43:31.505 --> 00:43:34.575 It's not an easy place to pay the rent. 00:43:34.625 --> 00:43:37.175 You know, if you're going to just do massage and that sort of thing. 00:43:37.175 --> 00:43:37.355 Yeah. 00:43:37.355 --> 00:43:37.605 Yeah. 00:43:37.945 --> 00:43:38.485 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:43:39.145 --> 00:43:39.865 Totally. 00:43:39.915 --> 00:43:41.005 It was funny in London. 00:43:41.105 --> 00:43:43.230 There was about 10 of us Aussies in a hotel room. 00:43:44.050 --> 00:43:46.410 In a flat in Bayeswater, 00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:47.960 Rupert Isaacson: I remember those days. 00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:49.890 Yeah. 00:43:49.890 --> 00:43:50.130 Yeah. 00:43:50.130 --> 00:43:50.530 It's brilliant. 00:43:50.530 --> 00:43:50.820 Fun. 00:43:51.340 --> 00:43:51.720 Okay. 00:43:51.720 --> 00:43:52.320 So you're back. 00:43:52.330 --> 00:43:53.370 You're a massage therapist. 00:43:53.730 --> 00:43:55.990 We still have not got a horse in sight. 00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:58.330 Jane Faulkner: No, no horse in sight. 00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:03.990 So massage therapist doing my yoga apprenticeship in my yoga apprenticeship. 00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:06.030 I started some of my relationship. 00:44:06.385 --> 00:44:12.335 Familiar relationship issues kept coming up and I think my skin, I still 00:44:12.335 --> 00:44:17.945 had acne and I was like, man, I just want to get to the bottom of this and 00:44:17.995 --> 00:44:22.930 I went to a naturopath and he said, Have you, do you ever get angry? 00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:23.770 And I said, no. 00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:27.910 And he said, oh, maybe you should go and see this therapist. 00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:32.640 So, and it was a Geal therapist, so I went and saw this Gestalt therapist. 00:44:32.730 --> 00:44:36.360 I feel sorry for that therapist forever because I remember them 00:44:36.365 --> 00:44:38.160 asking me, you know, what do you need? 00:44:38.160 --> 00:44:39.090 And I was like, I don't know. 00:44:39.660 --> 00:44:44.270 I had no real idea about myself. 00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:46.670 Rupert Isaacson: Now not everyone knows what Gestalt therapy is. 00:44:46.670 --> 00:44:47.391 Can you tell us please? 00:44:48.410 --> 00:44:49.280 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, sure. 00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:54.140 So it's a type of therapy that was I guess put together by a man called 00:44:54.140 --> 00:45:00.680 Fritz Perls and Gestalt is very much about supporting someone to be in the 00:45:00.680 --> 00:45:02.550 here and now with their experience. 00:45:02.730 --> 00:45:07.580 So someone might be telling you a story of their childhood as a Gestalt therapist. 00:45:07.650 --> 00:45:11.780 I might say, what are you noticing now as you tell me about being 8? 00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:16.625 So it's very much about what's happening in the here and now and it's. 00:45:16.825 --> 00:45:21.485 A lot about getting curious about how someone we call it 00:45:21.485 --> 00:45:26.555 makes contact or shows up and how they break contact or disappear. 00:45:27.145 --> 00:45:31.855 And so as a Gestalt therapist, I'm always supporting or trying to help 00:45:31.935 --> 00:45:36.685 someone make contact with themselves and with me and with their environment. 00:45:36.685 --> 00:45:42.555 And I'm trying to support them to become aware of how they break that contact or 00:45:42.585 --> 00:45:44.695 how they move away from that experience. 00:45:44.695 --> 00:45:44.935 You 00:45:46.090 --> 00:45:46.220 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:45:47.160 --> 00:45:50.710 So you, you, you say when you see clients now, so you went as 00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:52.340 a client, but now you become. 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:52.790 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 00:45:53.230 --> 00:45:53.600 Yes. 00:45:53.600 --> 00:45:55.320 Yeah. 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:55.750 Yeah. 00:45:56.100 --> 00:45:56.310 Yeah. 00:45:56.310 --> 00:45:58.940 So from that, I studied Gestalt therapy. 00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:01.990 Rupert Isaacson: I just want to do a quick, a quick terms thing. 00:46:02.230 --> 00:46:03.650 Gestalt is a German word, right? 00:46:03.680 --> 00:46:08.160 So, but in English it tends to mean, I'm looking here on my Oxford dictionary, 00:46:08.530 --> 00:46:14.460 an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts. 00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:16.340 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:46:17.140 --> 00:46:19.840 Rupert Isaacson: So are you saying then that Gestalt therapy 00:46:20.350 --> 00:46:22.640 is a quest for the full self? 00:46:22.910 --> 00:46:23.410 Is that? 00:46:23.410 --> 00:46:24.230 Yeah. 00:46:24.510 --> 00:46:26.910 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, that's a way nicer way to put it than I put it. 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:27.250 Yes. 00:46:28.600 --> 00:46:29.640 That's exactly it. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:38.720 It's like, who are you and how can we help you let go of what you're How 00:46:41.180 --> 00:46:47.420 can we uncover your full self and how can we support you to become aware of how you 00:46:47.430 --> 00:46:49.330 stop yourself from being your full self? 00:46:50.120 --> 00:46:52.970 Rupert Isaacson: So by now, we're sort of moving into the realm of psychotherapy. 00:46:52.970 --> 00:46:53.190 No. 00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.300 Jane Faulkner: Yep. 00:46:54.830 --> 00:46:55.370 That's right. 00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:57.540 So 00:46:58.730 --> 00:46:59.130 Rupert Isaacson: ponies 00:47:00.410 --> 00:47:06.160 Jane Faulkner: not yet, not yet, though, for you to stop training. 00:47:06.250 --> 00:47:10.890 In that time, I had my two children which was huge for me because I was sitting 00:47:10.890 --> 00:47:15.140 in a group of people talking about how their parents had screwed them up. 00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:22.510 And I was, you know, Entering into parenting yeah, so I 00:47:22.510 --> 00:47:24.020 did my gestalt training. 00:47:24.230 --> 00:47:27.850 I had just finished that was starting to study art therapy 00:47:28.690 --> 00:47:28.870 Rupert Isaacson: and I 00:47:28.870 --> 00:47:30.420 Jane Faulkner: was doing my art therapy training. 00:47:30.420 --> 00:47:31.830 That was a two year training. 00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:32.520 Rupert Isaacson: Why art therapy? 00:47:33.290 --> 00:47:36.900 Because you haven't talked about a love of art or being an artist up until now. 00:47:36.950 --> 00:47:39.350 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, no, I think. 00:47:40.460 --> 00:47:45.240 I think someone I knew was doing it and I was curious and I liked 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.310 learning and I was like, sure, I, I think I didn't want to stop learning. 00:47:49.310 --> 00:47:54.710 I think that's, there's no greater, there's no good reason behind it. 00:47:55.370 --> 00:47:59.520 It was very powerful though, that art therapy training, very powerful 00:47:59.520 --> 00:48:00.960 work working with your hands. 00:48:02.105 --> 00:48:04.045 Some kind of bypasses that 00:48:04.715 --> 00:48:05.005 Rupert Isaacson: right. 00:48:05.005 --> 00:48:07.465 And creating images that come out of your subconscious. 00:48:07.465 --> 00:48:07.715 Right. 00:48:07.745 --> 00:48:08.125 So that 00:48:08.475 --> 00:48:09.275 Jane Faulkner: what you 00:48:09.275 --> 00:48:10.315 Rupert Isaacson: do or what you create. 00:48:11.545 --> 00:48:11.565 Yeah. 00:48:11.815 --> 00:48:14.435 Reflect something that you're not actually expressing verbally. 00:48:14.475 --> 00:48:14.805 Right. 00:48:15.195 --> 00:48:15.565 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:48:15.655 --> 00:48:15.905 Yeah. 00:48:15.965 --> 00:48:19.045 Or even aware of within yourself. 00:48:19.465 --> 00:48:19.765 Yeah. 00:48:19.795 --> 00:48:24.125 So it was when I had towards the end of art therapy, a friend and I went to a 00:48:24.125 --> 00:48:29.095 retreat center and she said, Oh, there's this new therapy, equine assisted therapy. 00:48:29.095 --> 00:48:29.935 Why don't we have a go? 00:48:30.465 --> 00:48:30.735 Okay. 00:48:30.795 --> 00:48:31.655 I was like, okay. 00:48:32.425 --> 00:48:32.905 Yeah. 00:48:32.935 --> 00:48:34.475 And I was like, Oh, radio. 00:48:35.085 --> 00:48:37.645 And I had a session and. 00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:44.890 It just got straight to my core stuff and I was like, wow, I want to learn 00:48:44.890 --> 00:48:49.980 this and then there was a teacher coming out from the States to teach it. 00:48:50.490 --> 00:48:54.950 So I went to his training and I just had a profound. 00:48:55.535 --> 00:48:56.575 impact on me. 00:48:57.065 --> 00:48:57.425 Okay. 00:48:57.425 --> 00:48:58.265 So 00:48:58.265 --> 00:48:59.325 Rupert Isaacson: just let's back up here. 00:48:59.555 --> 00:49:02.325 What kind of equine assisted therapy was this? 00:49:02.765 --> 00:49:03.735 Who was the dude? 00:49:04.185 --> 00:49:04.625 Tell us a bit. 00:49:04.625 --> 00:49:04.995 Yeah, 00:49:05.285 --> 00:49:05.795 Jane Faulkner: sure. 00:49:06.245 --> 00:49:10.755 So his name was Dewey Freeman and he, Dewey Freeman. 00:49:10.755 --> 00:49:11.055 Yeah. 00:49:11.055 --> 00:49:14.265 And he runs the Gestalt Equine Institute of the Rockies. 00:49:14.265 --> 00:49:15.072 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:49:15.072 --> 00:49:16.685 The Gestalt. 00:49:17.165 --> 00:49:18.785 Is that something we should be checking out? 00:49:19.375 --> 00:49:21.225 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, Dewey's amazing. 00:49:21.405 --> 00:49:21.775 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:49:22.915 --> 00:49:26.685 Jane Faulkner: Dewey and Joni Riga, I think her name was. 00:49:28.805 --> 00:49:32.365 Rupert Isaacson: Dewey Freeman and Joni Riga. 00:49:32.435 --> 00:49:33.885 Jane Faulkner: Riga, yeah. 00:49:33.955 --> 00:49:36.035 I'm, I'm, I'm, I think I'm mispronouncing her. 00:49:36.085 --> 00:49:36.535 And 00:49:36.605 --> 00:49:37.115 Rupert Isaacson: where are they? 00:49:37.145 --> 00:49:38.195 Are they in the Rockies? 00:49:38.205 --> 00:49:39.215 Are they Boulder, Colorado? 00:49:39.215 --> 00:49:39.820 Where are they? 00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:41.120 Jane Faulkner: I think 00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:41.770 Rupert Isaacson: so. 00:49:42.150 --> 00:49:42.540 Jane Faulkner: I'll look it 00:49:42.540 --> 00:49:43.480 Rupert Isaacson: up quickly as you tell us. 00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:43.910 All right. 00:49:44.170 --> 00:49:48.780 So you, you, you, you show up and now suddenly for the first time since you're 00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:52.530 a little girl looking at your neighbor's horses, you've got a pony in the room. 00:49:53.290 --> 00:49:53.950 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 00:49:54.010 --> 00:49:54.500 Yeah. 00:49:54.810 --> 00:49:55.987 And it was 00:49:55.987 --> 00:49:56.420 Rupert Isaacson: intense. 00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:04.040 Jane Faulkner: So, I went and So it was at a woman called Meg Kirby's place, 00:50:04.040 --> 00:50:08.920 and I'm always grateful to Meg Kirby for bringing Dewey out to Australia and 00:50:08.950 --> 00:50:14.540 she had a, a large herd and there was some mares and they had some yearlings. 00:50:14.720 --> 00:50:19.400 I think that was, that were yearlings and one of the first exercises Dewey 00:50:19.430 --> 00:50:24.730 said, you know, kind of go out into the paddock and let's just see what happens. 00:50:25.845 --> 00:50:31.185 And these yearlings just kept coming up to me and like nudging me in the chest. 00:50:31.185 --> 00:50:35.685 And I, I got started getting really overwhelmed, like, and I must have 00:50:35.805 --> 00:50:39.565 looked way out of my depth because he came and stood in front of me. 00:50:40.275 --> 00:50:45.955 And he said, cause the mayor then started coming towards me, not looking 00:50:45.955 --> 00:50:47.635 very happy at what was happening. 00:50:48.005 --> 00:50:54.315 And so he stood in front of me and he said, you know, is this familiar that 00:50:54.315 --> 00:50:56.505 people push past your boundaries and. 00:50:57.550 --> 00:51:01.170 I think I was a bit out of body, but I was like nodding. 00:51:02.550 --> 00:51:03.140 Yeah. 00:51:04.740 --> 00:51:04.990 Yeah. 00:51:04.990 --> 00:51:09.000 And he invited me to go and stand and put my hands on this beautiful 00:51:09.010 --> 00:51:11.850 old gray mare called Stormy. 00:51:12.680 --> 00:51:19.830 And he said, I want you to just feel into Stormy and her energy and her connection. 00:51:20.470 --> 00:51:25.070 Yes, that was a really powerful first experience of, well, second, because 00:51:25.080 --> 00:51:28.760 the first one had been at the retreat center, but yeah, it was, it was. 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:30.900 had a massive impact on me. 00:51:32.180 --> 00:51:35.980 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how did that then develop into, I'm just, 00:51:35.980 --> 00:51:42.710 by the way, looking, Dewey, it's D U E Y, not Dewey, D E W E Y, so Dewey 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.520 Freeman, and I just looked up Gestalt. 00:51:45.325 --> 00:51:46.295 At Quine Institute of the Rockies. 00:51:46.295 --> 00:51:49.935 It's actually just south of Denver, between Denver and Colorado Springs. 00:51:49.975 --> 00:51:54.495 So for those, those listeners who are in that area, you might want to check it out. 00:51:55.185 --> 00:51:57.455 Okay, so he helps you with, with Stormy. 00:51:57.925 --> 00:52:01.375 You, you feel suddenly grounded. 00:52:01.745 --> 00:52:05.675 You feel he's he's pointed out to you that perhaps you're someone 00:52:05.675 --> 00:52:10.995 who doesn't make your boundaries as effective as you might, because his 00:52:10.995 --> 00:52:12.395 yearlings are stomping all over you. 00:52:12.835 --> 00:52:17.790 And how does that get you from, how do you go from that? 00:52:18.980 --> 00:52:23.460 Insight as a sort of patient, if you like, to where you are, to where you begin to 00:52:23.460 --> 00:52:24.650 actually say, I'm going to offer this. 00:52:25.680 --> 00:52:26.280 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 00:52:27.200 --> 00:52:31.640 So, from there, I asked the other people at the course, you know, 00:52:31.640 --> 00:52:33.570 like, what, how do I get a horse? 00:52:33.660 --> 00:52:34.610 How do I know which horse? 00:52:34.950 --> 00:52:37.550 And where should I start 00:52:38.010 --> 00:52:39.460 Rupert Isaacson: like a rabbit hole? 00:52:39.460 --> 00:52:45.630 Jane Faulkner: There was a a man from Tasmania and he said, 00:52:45.630 --> 00:52:46.900 your horse will come to you. 00:52:47.270 --> 00:52:48.470 And I was like a radio. 00:52:48.490 --> 00:52:50.440 I'll just, you know, kind of see what happens. 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:54.670 And I knew I had to learn horsemanship first because I didn't know anything. 00:52:55.310 --> 00:53:01.530 So I came back Queensland and I found a woman that taught horsemanship. 00:53:02.570 --> 00:53:08.550 And I started learning horsemanship from her and the horses terrified me. 00:53:08.740 --> 00:53:11.860 Like I remember her horse, Penny I was terrified. 00:53:11.860 --> 00:53:17.390 I remember the first time being beside Penny and her name was Eula and Penny 00:53:17.390 --> 00:53:22.430 kind of pinning her ear and cocking her leg and Eula saying, she's kind 00:53:22.430 --> 00:53:26.140 of saying, don't bring that here because I was terrified to touch her. 00:53:26.140 --> 00:53:28.310 I was terrified to be in her space. 00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:33.270 And EULA over time just kind of helped me feel more comfortable around Penny. 00:53:33.560 --> 00:53:38.330 And EULA got a second horse called Phoenix, and it was really funny. 00:53:38.330 --> 00:53:42.020 I knew as soon as I saw Phoenix, I knew he was going to be my horse. 00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:44.120 And I didn't like him. 00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:46.400 Rupert Isaacson: I feel terrible 00:53:46.460 --> 00:53:47.400 Jane Faulkner: saying that now. 00:53:47.730 --> 00:53:50.460 He, he, I think he already pushed my buttons. 00:53:50.730 --> 00:53:56.280 And so we worked with Phoenix and then Eula had to go away up to Darwin. 00:53:56.450 --> 00:53:58.920 And she said, you know, do you want to have Phoenix? 00:53:59.730 --> 00:54:01.620 And I didn't even want to make the decision. 00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:04.220 I said to my husband, you know, I've been offered this horse. 00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:06.490 Can you go meet him? 00:54:06.690 --> 00:54:09.060 And my husband went and saw him and just loved him. 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:10.050 Interesting. 00:54:10.060 --> 00:54:15.000 And Yeah, so we brought Phoenix home and Phoenix, he really 00:54:15.010 --> 00:54:16.270 scared the crap out of me. 00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:17.280 Now, hold on, you say you bring 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.990 Rupert Isaacson: him home, but that, we all know that those of us 00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.305 who keep horses, that involves The infrastructure of a horse type property. 00:54:24.665 --> 00:54:27.565 You have not yet said that you were living in any place where you 00:54:27.565 --> 00:54:31.615 could keep horses or that even knew how to keep horses or anyone had 00:54:31.625 --> 00:54:33.085 mentored you and how to keep horses. 00:54:33.125 --> 00:54:33.325 So, 00:54:33.645 --> 00:54:34.285 Jane Faulkner: yeah, 00:54:34.365 --> 00:54:35.625 Rupert Isaacson: go into those details a little bit. 00:54:35.625 --> 00:54:37.125 How did you jump over those hurdles? 00:54:38.335 --> 00:54:42.505 Jane Faulkner: So I was lucky in that the woman across so I do live in a rural area. 00:54:42.505 --> 00:54:44.015 Now I'm on 13 acres. 00:54:44.045 --> 00:54:47.105 We fenced our place off and I was super lucky that the 00:54:47.105 --> 00:54:48.545 woman across the road from us. 00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:55.510 Laurel was a horse woman and she was very kind and very supportive in teaching 00:54:55.510 --> 00:54:58.910 me kind of how to be around horses. 00:54:58.910 --> 00:55:02.290 What, what to, because I didn't know what to feed or anything. 00:55:02.290 --> 00:55:03.070 I remember you had a mentor, 00:55:03.660 --> 00:55:04.050 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:55:04.250 --> 00:55:04.600 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:05.750 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:06.270 Yeah. 00:55:06.370 --> 00:55:06.710 Yeah. 00:55:07.240 --> 00:55:12.660 And so a mentor with feeding and caring for, but not for, because Phoenix. 00:55:13.120 --> 00:55:17.960 A really intimidated me, like he was really sure of himself and I 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:23.250 just, yeah, he could just boss me around with his ears and he did. 00:55:23.700 --> 00:55:28.080 And so I went to a really cool horse trainer called Angie Wicks, 00:55:28.270 --> 00:55:34.160 and she really helped me kind of learn to work and be around Phoenix 00:55:34.170 --> 00:55:36.240 and how to earn his respect. 00:55:36.340 --> 00:55:39.400 And that really helped that kind of. 00:55:39.970 --> 00:55:44.910 Because I think before that, especially coming through the equine assisted therapy 00:55:44.950 --> 00:55:50.910 world, I was a bit a bit of that horses as magical unicorns was a bit like, wow, 00:55:50.910 --> 00:55:56.630 they're so powerful and wow, they're so, I didn't kind of, and very much my pattern. 00:55:57.695 --> 00:56:02.885 Of worrying about how me setting boundaries would impact Phoenix 00:56:02.895 --> 00:56:06.245 emotionally that came into play there. 00:56:06.305 --> 00:56:09.055 So that's where learning from Angie was really great 00:56:10.375 --> 00:56:13.005 Rupert Isaacson: to actually be around these these creatures. 00:56:13.065 --> 00:56:13.365 Yes. 00:56:14.005 --> 00:56:16.005 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, and boundaries. 00:56:16.135 --> 00:56:16.475 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:56:16.555 --> 00:56:17.115 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 00:56:17.295 --> 00:56:17.715 Yes. 00:56:17.805 --> 00:56:22.775 And not anthropomorphize them, not kind of project my human emotion onto them, 00:56:23.335 --> 00:56:29.025 kind of just realize that I'm not going to hurt Phoenix's feelings by asking 00:56:29.025 --> 00:56:31.465 him to lunge to the right around me. 00:56:31.965 --> 00:56:32.415 Yes. 00:56:34.435 --> 00:56:35.587 It's embarrassing to. 00:56:35.587 --> 00:56:36.432 Well, the 00:56:36.432 --> 00:56:41.074 Rupert Isaacson: reason I chuckle is because I just made a note here. 00:56:41.074 --> 00:56:42.340 Do you feel. 00:56:43.580 --> 00:56:47.010 Because I feel an insight that I'm getting from this is that perhaps an advantage 00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.870 if you're going into equine assisted work without a horsey background, provided, 00:56:51.870 --> 00:56:56.744 of course, you have good horsey mentors, because for all the obvious reasons. 00:56:56.744 --> 00:57:03.390 But starting as a quote unquote patient in an equine assisted therapy gives, 00:57:03.690 --> 00:57:07.695 do you think that gives you a better insight Into the patient experience 00:57:08.045 --> 00:57:13.655 for clients that don't know horses than somebody like me, who, you know, I've 00:57:13.655 --> 00:57:14.925 lived and breathed them for so long. 00:57:14.925 --> 00:57:16.485 I can't remember life without them. 00:57:16.965 --> 00:57:18.115 So there might be things I miss. 00:57:20.205 --> 00:57:21.935 When someone comes in, he doesn't know them. 00:57:22.165 --> 00:57:26.075 I mean, yes, of course, I'm aware that someone might be intimidated or 00:57:26.075 --> 00:57:28.865 it's just, you know, unfamiliar, etc. 00:57:29.535 --> 00:57:33.065 But it doesn't occur to me, for example, to anthropomorphize in 00:57:33.065 --> 00:57:35.205 those ways because I was taught. 00:57:35.795 --> 00:57:37.375 Horsemanship from a very, very young age. 00:57:37.695 --> 00:57:42.105 Do you feel that you're having come in as a late comer like that and actually had to 00:57:42.405 --> 00:57:47.185 sort of go up against making these quote unquote mistakes of perception and so on? 00:57:47.195 --> 00:57:52.355 Do you think that actually makes you weirdly a more effective equine 00:57:52.355 --> 00:57:55.625 assisted therapist because you can empathize perhaps more with the client? 00:57:57.175 --> 00:58:01.315 Jane Faulkner: I think it, I think it definitely helps understand how a client's 00:58:01.325 --> 00:58:05.775 coming to it and how vulnerable they can feel and how powerful horses feel. 00:58:06.115 --> 00:58:10.545 I think it definitely helps teach basic horsemanship. 00:58:10.865 --> 00:58:13.755 Cause I think, you know, when you master something to then 00:58:13.775 --> 00:58:15.735 teach the basics is challenging. 00:58:16.175 --> 00:58:22.355 Whereas for me, I was so worried about horses that, that I read everything. 00:58:22.355 --> 00:58:26.475 I, I like did a study of horses and I, I. 00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:30.470 Broke everything down and to try to stay safe. 00:58:30.530 --> 00:58:33.260 Like I, in my head, I was all these scenarios and what do 00:58:33.260 --> 00:58:34.730 I do and how do I do that? 00:58:34.735 --> 00:58:39.840 And, and with the lady that taught me horsemanship she was great. 00:58:39.870 --> 00:58:42.120 'cause I remember her asking me, you know, what do you wanna learn? 00:58:42.125 --> 00:58:45.990 And I said, I want to learn from a horse that's doesn't just know what to do. 00:58:46.020 --> 00:58:50.015 I wanna learn how to work with young horses or. 00:58:51.125 --> 00:58:55.515 Horses that are frightened or and I wanted to do that for my own confidence 00:58:55.585 --> 00:58:59.825 because I felt like until I know what to do when a horse is in this situation, 00:58:59.825 --> 00:59:01.865 I'm not going to feel confident. 00:59:03.295 --> 00:59:03.735 Yeah. 00:59:03.865 --> 00:59:06.635 Rupert Isaacson: And your, your, your husband is in this equation too, right? 00:59:06.645 --> 00:59:08.055 So is he working the horse with you? 00:59:08.215 --> 00:59:10.215 You say that the horse loved him and he loved the horse. 00:59:10.775 --> 00:59:12.375 So was it the two of you going on this? 00:59:12.970 --> 00:59:13.730 Journey together? 00:59:14.540 --> 00:59:15.310 Jane Faulkner: Not really. 00:59:15.330 --> 00:59:21.460 So my husband grew up on a massive sheep farm out west, so he'd grown up on horses. 00:59:21.510 --> 00:59:22.350 Ah, so he knew horses, 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:23.360 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:59:23.410 --> 00:59:26.480 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah, he did, but not, so he'd never 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:27.760 had to really care for them. 00:59:28.010 --> 00:59:28.280 Right. 00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:34.050 He'd hopped on ridden them and And that real old fashioned way of, so 00:59:34.050 --> 00:59:38.710 didn't know groundwork only knew horses of, you know, they just eat grass 00:59:38.830 --> 00:59:40.720 and they need a dam kind of thing. 00:59:40.780 --> 00:59:43.650 So, didn't need more than that. 00:59:43.750 --> 00:59:46.930 So, and he wasn't really interested in learning the groundwork. 00:59:46.950 --> 00:59:48.380 He didn't have the fear I had. 00:59:48.765 --> 00:59:49.915 He was just comfortable. 00:59:49.965 --> 00:59:54.385 He would hop on any horse or be around any horse where I had, I had a real fear. 00:59:54.935 --> 01:00:00.855 So I wanted to really understand their body language, understand how 01:00:00.855 --> 01:00:03.205 to read it, understand how to kind of. 01:00:04.410 --> 01:00:08.210 Support myself to feel safe around them and because I really wanted to do this 01:00:08.210 --> 01:00:15.310 work, but I think before you asked a question around non horsey people coming 01:00:15.310 --> 01:00:22.120 in compared to horsey people coming in, I think non horsey people, the therapies, 01:00:22.120 --> 01:00:27.600 you know, More powerful initially just because of the size of the horse and 01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:29.360 Rupert Isaacson: the change of environment. 01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:29.970 Yeah, yeah, 01:00:30.080 --> 01:00:31.350 Jane Faulkner: yeah, definitely. 01:00:31.370 --> 01:00:37.260 Definitely as a therapist I definitely have to work harder with horse people 01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:39.960 because they see horses in a certain way. 01:00:40.720 --> 01:00:47.390 And I'm not as open to seeing how they might impact the relationship 01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:48.550 between them and the horse. 01:00:49.190 --> 01:00:50.660 Yeah, I think you 01:00:50.660 --> 01:00:51.170 Rupert Isaacson: described me. 01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:57.100 Jane Faulkner: Well, I think I, I really see this again in our Western 01:00:57.100 --> 01:01:01.700 culture where we kind of Have this arrogance of doing to something 01:01:02.220 --> 01:01:06.200 rather than being curious of how we might be impacting something and how 01:01:06.200 --> 01:01:08.310 something might be impacting us back. 01:01:08.820 --> 01:01:17.130 Yeah, so definitely as a therapist, it's different work with someone that's 01:01:17.220 --> 01:01:20.650 a horse person compared to someone that's never been around horses. 01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:22.650 Rupert Isaacson: Are the majority of your clients? 01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:24.800 non horsey people would you say? 01:01:26.200 --> 01:01:28.570 Jane Faulkner: No, not, no, not at all. 01:01:28.650 --> 01:01:30.200 I would say it's about half and half. 01:01:30.430 --> 01:01:30.910 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:01:31.590 --> 01:01:37.690 Interesting because when you get a horsey person coming to you as a patient, yes, 01:01:37.860 --> 01:01:40.560 they have their own horses and they have their own relationships with their 01:01:40.590 --> 01:01:45.930 horses and are getting to some degree therapized simply by Being around horses, 01:01:45.930 --> 01:01:47.790 which we all know is very healing. 01:01:48.270 --> 01:01:49.610 Otherwise we wouldn't do what we do. 01:01:50.050 --> 01:01:54.280 What makes them seek out then something outside of that 01:01:54.280 --> 01:01:57.350 relationship that they already have with their horses to go to you? 01:01:57.350 --> 01:01:58.320 What do they come with? 01:01:58.320 --> 01:01:59.050 What do they say? 01:02:00.510 --> 01:02:06.420 Jane Faulkner: So often they've hit some kind of crisis in their relationship. 01:02:06.950 --> 01:02:06.980 With 01:02:07.030 --> 01:02:09.180 Rupert Isaacson: horses or just in, in, with human relationships, 01:02:09.510 --> 01:02:11.090 Jane Faulkner: human relationships. 01:02:11.260 --> 01:02:11.700 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:02:11.750 --> 01:02:12.020 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:02:12.020 --> 01:02:17.920 Just something's not working in their human life and they're drawn to the 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:21.600 equine assisted therapy because horses have always been their safe place. 01:02:21.790 --> 01:02:22.450 Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm. 01:02:23.235 --> 01:02:26.395 Jane Faulkner: And I remember Dewey explaining this beautifully 01:02:26.415 --> 01:02:32.535 that people that have had those early relational ruptures or 01:02:32.545 --> 01:02:34.525 difficulties relation, relationally. 01:02:35.235 --> 01:02:42.465 So maybe it was child abuse or abandonment or drug and alcohol abuse 01:02:42.495 --> 01:02:47.555 by parents or their parents, you know, being kind of just not great. 01:02:47.855 --> 01:02:52.815 human experiences as children that those people are more drawn to the 01:02:52.815 --> 01:02:56.925 equine therapy because they are able to trust and feel safer with an 01:02:56.925 --> 01:02:58.615 animal than they are with a human. 01:02:59.365 --> 01:03:01.795 And he spoke about that power of. 01:03:02.430 --> 01:03:07.800 Those people that really struggled to form connections with people, able to 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:12.080 make that connection with the horse and then slowly over time transfer 01:03:12.080 --> 01:03:15.320 that connection onto the therapist that's working with the horse. 01:03:16.130 --> 01:03:22.890 And so that's kind of what helps bridge, I guess, working with the horses for 01:03:23.230 --> 01:03:27.820 different people into healing their relational experiences with humans. 01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:31.740 There's that, but also horses. 01:03:32.605 --> 01:03:39.845 Help reveal what we do in relationship and give us an opportunity 01:03:39.845 --> 01:03:41.165 to try something different. 01:03:42.660 --> 01:03:43.390 Rupert Isaacson: I could see that. 01:03:44.180 --> 01:03:46.730 It's interesting to think about anthropomorphizing because, you know, 01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:51.520 that's such a hot topic in what we do. 01:03:51.660 --> 01:03:53.960 And there's a part of me that often thinks, well, we have no choice but 01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:57.160 to anthropomorphize because that's the only, we're looking through monkey eyes, 01:03:57.200 --> 01:03:58.810 you know, so we're going to monkey. 01:03:59.255 --> 01:04:01.645 We got monkey what we see as a way. 01:04:01.855 --> 01:04:01.945 Yes. 01:04:01.945 --> 01:04:09.515 A monkey looking at us would see, and I should imagine that horses e eifs us , you 01:04:09.520 --> 01:04:13.005 know, because they have no choice, because they are looking through pony eyes. 01:04:13.435 --> 01:04:17.400 So I, I often think, well, that's unavoidable and actually natural. 01:04:18.925 --> 01:04:19.225 Mm-Hmm. 01:04:19.475 --> 01:04:26.455 So presumably it could be helpful as well as hindering depending on Yes. 01:04:26.755 --> 01:04:29.835 How much awareness we have that we are doing it. 01:04:30.315 --> 01:04:34.505 Would you not, would you say when I, you know, I've got horses, I love my horses. 01:04:34.505 --> 01:04:36.155 Some of them, you know, were born into my arms. 01:04:36.155 --> 01:04:37.575 I've known them forever, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:04:39.495 --> 01:04:43.185 So naturally I, I, I relate to them kind of as family members. 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:46.360 Which as we know, we're not always, you know, wonderfully functional with 01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:49.610 our family members and our family members wonderfully functional with us. 01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:52.020 And actually, of course, that's part of feeling safe, right? 01:04:52.100 --> 01:04:54.430 If you're, if you actually feel safe with your mom and dad, 01:04:54.450 --> 01:04:56.100 you can tell them to F off. 01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:58.450 And if a horse feels safe with you. 01:04:58.715 --> 01:05:03.935 So something I've realized over time is allowing time just because the fact 01:05:04.175 --> 01:05:07.615 my horses are working horses, they need to be able to say F off sometimes. 01:05:08.025 --> 01:05:12.345 And yes, that was a really interesting dance for me to sort of get into say, Oh, 01:05:12.345 --> 01:05:16.905 I see for you to have agency and choice, but also be my colleague when I need you 01:05:16.905 --> 01:05:19.115 to be my colleague and keep people safe. 01:05:19.335 --> 01:05:23.825 You know, I to some degree have to anthropomorphize because I know 01:05:23.825 --> 01:05:25.775 that I certainly need that time. 01:05:26.245 --> 01:05:31.165 of telling people to leave me alone or showing up when I feel ready to work. 01:05:31.625 --> 01:05:34.205 And then in the old school of horsemanship, it would have been, well, 01:05:34.205 --> 01:05:38.205 if you do that, the horse is going to run all over you, which of course is true. 01:05:38.675 --> 01:05:40.855 If you don't know horsemanship, that's the paradox, right? 01:05:41.465 --> 01:05:45.395 But once you do know horsemanship, you can then begin to discern actually, you know, 01:05:45.395 --> 01:05:47.605 in this situation, I should let him go. 01:05:48.270 --> 01:05:49.840 He's turning his back on me in the pasture. 01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:50.930 I'm approaching with a halter. 01:05:51.520 --> 01:05:54.700 What's the difference between when I say, no, I actually need to get you today. 01:05:54.980 --> 01:05:57.460 Or, you know what, you're right. 01:05:57.610 --> 01:05:59.330 Just, it's not the day today. 01:06:00.770 --> 01:06:03.360 In the same way that we would have to do those things with people. 01:06:03.870 --> 01:06:05.090 One could say, is that not anthropomorphizing? 01:06:06.640 --> 01:06:11.110 And then could one say, well, Yes, but is that anthropomorphizing functionally? 01:06:12.200 --> 01:06:14.340 And I'm not saying I have the rights or the wrongs on this. 01:06:14.340 --> 01:06:18.010 I'm just bringing them up as, as, as talking points in questions. 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:19.140 But I mean, what do you think? 01:06:19.140 --> 01:06:19.480 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:06:20.330 --> 01:06:23.290 Well, it's, as you're talking, I'm thinking of, there's a concept in 01:06:23.290 --> 01:06:25.460 Gestalt called the field theory. 01:06:26.290 --> 01:06:30.290 And it's, it talks about, it acknowledges that we all come with 01:06:30.290 --> 01:06:32.460 our own ground or our own experience. 01:06:33.020 --> 01:06:35.405 And so we're all seeing the world through the field theory. 01:06:37.135 --> 01:06:42.195 And I think a horse, a dog, any being in the planet comes with their own 01:06:42.205 --> 01:06:46.245 ground, their own experiences, and that shapes how they then interact 01:06:46.255 --> 01:06:47.865 and how they are in the world. 01:06:48.415 --> 01:06:54.145 And so, to me, this is where I can get frustrated sometimes because I 01:06:54.165 --> 01:06:57.485 think, I feel like we can get hung up on some of these words, like, 01:06:57.485 --> 01:06:59.295 oh, don't do this or don't do that. 01:06:59.295 --> 01:07:01.255 And it's like, man, we're not in boxes. 01:07:01.930 --> 01:07:05.300 You know, we're living beings and we're having these different experiences. 01:07:06.050 --> 01:07:13.350 So, and I think as a therapist, I guess I work on or how a person 01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:18.420 anthropomorphizes a horse gives me a lot of information about the person. 01:07:18.530 --> 01:07:19.010 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:07:19.190 --> 01:07:20.850 Jane Faulkner: And we work on that. 01:07:21.550 --> 01:07:26.520 So if someone projects something onto a horse, I get curious about. 01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:28.880 That in the person, right? 01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:30.410 I think I think that 01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:32.460 Rupert Isaacson: that word curious is the word, right? 01:07:32.580 --> 01:07:33.060 Isn't it? 01:07:33.070 --> 01:07:36.640 So not saying it's right or it's wrong to project something to 01:07:36.640 --> 01:07:37.510 somebody you have no choice. 01:07:38.505 --> 01:07:40.215 Yes, we projected we just do. 01:07:40.615 --> 01:07:44.675 And that's actually how we navigate or antenna, I go out right, we must to some 01:07:44.675 --> 01:07:49.145 degree, but how we to be curious rather than to say it's right or it's wrong. 01:07:49.355 --> 01:07:49.905 I like that. 01:07:49.945 --> 01:07:50.315 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:07:50.705 --> 01:07:51.165 Yeah. 01:07:51.615 --> 01:07:57.215 Well it's another term is transference or countertransference so when as a. 01:07:57.545 --> 01:08:03.275 Therapist will talk about a client will transfer emotions onto you as a therapist. 01:08:03.825 --> 01:08:09.125 So say I remind a client of their auntie, they'll transfer their 01:08:09.125 --> 01:08:12.955 emotions about their auntie onto me and I'll counter transfer. 01:08:13.095 --> 01:08:17.145 So say they remind me of my son, then I'll counter transfer 01:08:18.495 --> 01:08:22.245 emotions of my son onto them. 01:08:22.735 --> 01:08:26.885 And when this gets unhealthy or, or. 01:08:28.300 --> 01:08:32.880 And not good is when I'm not aware of that process, I'm not aware of 01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:36.540 that happening, and I feel this is the same with anthropomorphizing. 01:08:36.540 --> 01:08:43.240 If I'm aware of it, and I'm curious about it, then I'm less likely to to 01:08:43.240 --> 01:08:46.350 do it in a way that's not supportive for the horse or the client. 01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:47.090 Rupert Isaacson: Got it. 01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:48.210 Yeah. 01:08:48.210 --> 01:08:50.590 And of course this one isn't always at the top of one's game. 01:08:50.590 --> 01:08:50.790 Right. 01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:51.280 You know, 01:08:51.380 --> 01:08:52.680 Jane Faulkner: Ah, a hundred percent. 01:08:53.860 --> 01:08:54.400 Yes. 01:08:54.450 --> 01:08:55.290 We're human. 01:08:56.070 --> 01:09:00.610 And my, so my account, my shit's gonna, I'm, I think of, I am seeing 01:09:01.040 --> 01:09:02.890 the world through my own muddy lenses. 01:09:03.050 --> 01:09:03.440 You know, it's 01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:04.050 Rupert Isaacson: really interesting. 01:09:04.050 --> 01:09:06.580 When I went through this just yesterday, actually, I was, I was working with a 01:09:06.580 --> 01:09:12.130 kid who absolutely pushes my buttons and is like super rude and you know, 01:09:12.350 --> 01:09:18.775 but he loves My little dog and my little dog brings out the best in him 01:09:19.385 --> 01:09:25.775 and I was tired yesterday and We you know got on a really magical thing. 01:09:25.775 --> 01:09:30.955 We go exploring on the horse together So we've gone down to a local a local stream. 01:09:31.855 --> 01:09:37.320 He's waiting in the stream and we're just discovering insects Annoyed 01:09:37.320 --> 01:09:39.940 and irritated with the insects, but he's also kind of curious about 01:09:39.940 --> 01:09:41.750 them and the dog is doing his bit. 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:47.980 My horse is, you know, being there and grazing and carrying him into 01:09:47.980 --> 01:09:50.420 this, this beautiful world and so on. 01:09:50.420 --> 01:09:53.580 And I remember, you know, finding myself going, Oh yes, I can feel 01:09:53.580 --> 01:09:55.480 myself feeling a bit negative here. 01:09:55.480 --> 01:09:56.590 Why am I feeling a bit negative? 01:09:56.590 --> 01:09:59.385 Well, it's all right if someone presses your buttons. 01:10:00.555 --> 01:10:02.065 You don't have to get along with everybody. 01:10:02.405 --> 01:10:03.595 But that's also not personal. 01:10:03.845 --> 01:10:05.745 Also, you are tired. 01:10:05.745 --> 01:10:06.965 I could see I was tired. 01:10:07.475 --> 01:10:08.345 So what do I need to do? 01:10:08.405 --> 01:10:10.425 And then also, well, hold on. 01:10:10.905 --> 01:10:11.795 What about gratitude? 01:10:12.065 --> 01:10:14.315 Can I be grateful to this person? 01:10:14.855 --> 01:10:16.745 This young person who's brought me up? 01:10:16.755 --> 01:10:21.845 Because here I am, nyeh in my head, while standing next to this very 01:10:21.845 --> 01:10:25.285 beautiful stream, listening to the music of the stream, looking at 01:10:25.345 --> 01:10:30.245 ladybugs flying, listening With my horse and my dog, hold on Rupert, 01:10:30.605 --> 01:10:34.715 perhaps a little bit of gratitude might help you in this situation. 01:10:34.945 --> 01:10:39.875 So I love what you say about awareness and curiosity because if I, it's so easy to 01:10:39.915 --> 01:10:46.705 either fall into a denial pattern, which can make one not behave brilliantly, or 01:10:46.705 --> 01:10:53.505 fall into an overgiving pattern, which can make one not, you know, and sort of, you 01:10:53.505 --> 01:10:55.795 go into a bit of martyr, you know, mind. 01:10:55.815 --> 01:10:56.225 Yeah. 01:10:56.845 --> 01:11:04.815 Or if I can just be aware that I'm feeling this emotion, do I have a 01:11:04.815 --> 01:11:11.085 chance to gain some perspective and put some tools into play like gratitude 01:11:11.125 --> 01:11:15.135 that I'm in this situation at all with that this is what I'm complaining 01:11:15.135 --> 01:11:16.915 about rather than something real. 01:11:19.005 --> 01:11:22.125 Another, another moment like that in Mongolia with my son. 01:11:22.665 --> 01:11:24.215 When it was. 01:11:24.970 --> 01:11:28.910 You're 40 degrees of Celsius and you know, he didn't want to ride at that point. 01:11:28.910 --> 01:11:29.990 So I had him on my shoulders. 01:11:30.180 --> 01:11:34.210 I'm leading my horse and he's putting the point of his chin at the top of 01:11:34.210 --> 01:11:40.420 my skull and it's It's going on for a long time and I, and I start to get 01:11:40.420 --> 01:11:44.300 this negative loop and then it's like from somewhere else, this voice says, 01:11:44.340 --> 01:11:50.840 Rupert, Rupert, Rupert, Rupert, you're in Mongolia with your son walking across 01:11:50.900 --> 01:11:55.920 Mongolia to see shamans in Siberia. 01:11:56.200 --> 01:11:58.480 And okay. 01:11:58.550 --> 01:11:58.940 It is. 01:11:59.635 --> 01:12:00.035 It does hurt. 01:12:01.285 --> 01:12:02.315 Bone on your bone. 01:12:02.375 --> 01:12:02.745 Okay. 01:12:03.545 --> 01:12:08.235 But the situation is absolutely amazing. 01:12:08.435 --> 01:12:10.025 You know, what are you complaining about? 01:12:10.465 --> 01:12:12.795 And what's your, what's your strategy? 01:12:12.795 --> 01:12:16.215 So I thought, well, really what he just needs to know that if you put his hand 01:12:16.215 --> 01:12:21.855 between his chin and my skull, that's I came up with this thing of the chin 01:12:21.855 --> 01:12:23.205 is actually, but the hand is nice. 01:12:23.845 --> 01:12:28.515 And we still joke about this today, him and I, you know, when we get into negative 01:12:28.515 --> 01:12:33.165 thought loops of how long it can take one just to say, The chin is out of the house. 01:12:33.375 --> 01:12:37.215 And what, what's that, of course, but asking for help and I suddenly flashback 01:12:37.225 --> 01:12:40.735 to you in that in that airport in India. 01:12:40.885 --> 01:12:41.255 Yeah. 01:12:41.605 --> 01:12:43.125 Saying, I haven't got a clue. 01:12:43.395 --> 01:12:43.725 Please tell me. 01:12:43.905 --> 01:12:45.645 This is very difficult as a therapist, isn't it? 01:12:45.645 --> 01:12:48.575 Because in a therapist, you're, you're sort of expected to be. 01:12:49.425 --> 01:12:52.085 A figure that sort of provides answers and of course, you're just a human. 01:12:53.445 --> 01:12:54.015 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:12:54.235 --> 01:12:55.435 How do you deal with these moments? 01:12:56.285 --> 01:12:56.565 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:12:56.775 --> 01:12:57.515 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:12:57.585 --> 01:13:00.395 As you're talking before and you're talking about the negative or 01:13:00.395 --> 01:13:03.575 the matter, and I was thinking, wow, in the middle is the human. 01:13:04.185 --> 01:13:08.475 And also just what you were saying before about the, that wisdom of, you 01:13:08.475 --> 01:13:10.555 know, when what's your son's name again? 01:13:10.615 --> 01:13:11.065 Rupert Isaacson: Rowan. 01:13:11.735 --> 01:13:12.105 Jane Faulkner: Rowan. 01:13:12.295 --> 01:13:12.645 Yeah. 01:13:12.985 --> 01:13:16.855 When his chin was pressing into your head and how you realize 01:13:16.855 --> 01:13:18.575 this, this pain isn't all of me. 01:13:18.575 --> 01:13:18.615 Yeah. 01:13:19.045 --> 01:13:21.785 You know, like the pains in my head, but it's not all of me. 01:13:21.785 --> 01:13:25.605 I think that's really powerful for us to realize this pain here. 01:13:25.605 --> 01:13:26.725 I can put my hand there. 01:13:26.725 --> 01:13:28.045 I can change this. 01:13:28.705 --> 01:13:32.605 But yeah, I think what helps me is giving myself permission to be 01:13:32.605 --> 01:13:36.805 human, giving myself permission to not have the answers, giving 01:13:36.805 --> 01:13:39.255 myself permission to to show up and. 01:13:40.615 --> 01:13:48.245 Yeah, just kind of, just be real, just kind of be like, yeah, 01:13:48.255 --> 01:13:49.825 I don't know all the answers. 01:13:49.825 --> 01:13:56.285 I don't, what I can offer you is, is my presence and that I'll walk along beside 01:13:56.285 --> 01:13:58.295 you on your journey and we'll work it out. 01:13:59.125 --> 01:14:03.595 But I, I'd never pretend, I can't know I can't have someone else's answers. 01:14:03.595 --> 01:14:04.125 Okay. 01:14:05.505 --> 01:14:05.845 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:14:05.875 --> 01:14:09.795 So, so we're now sort of talking you as you are now. 01:14:11.020 --> 01:14:15.280 Where, before we digress there, you were still going through your 01:14:15.330 --> 01:14:17.900 education, really, in horsemanship. 01:14:18.740 --> 01:14:23.440 And as we know, there's knowing a horse and there's knowing horses and if you're 01:14:23.460 --> 01:14:28.870 going to be professional in, by putting people who don't know horses together 01:14:28.870 --> 01:14:33.380 with horses, obviously we have to know horses well enough to keep people safe. 01:14:33.960 --> 01:14:36.930 So how, how long does it take you? 01:14:38.400 --> 01:14:43.700 And how do you get there to graduate from a know nothing, afraid of this horse on 01:14:43.700 --> 01:14:48.400 your own property to Being in a position where you actually can confidently keep 01:14:48.420 --> 01:14:51.920 people safe around horses while doing a job with a horse as your colleague. 01:14:52.850 --> 01:14:53.200 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:14:53.200 --> 01:14:53.680 Yeah. 01:14:54.420 --> 01:15:00.660 So, with me, with Phoenix and with Angie who taught me, I was really disciplined. 01:15:00.690 --> 01:15:04.160 So I worked with him every day doing groundwork and I 01:15:04.220 --> 01:15:06.070 went and saw Angie every week. 01:15:06.600 --> 01:15:09.340 And I think I started seeing clients. 01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:15.700 It's about probably a year after I had done that training with Dewey 01:15:16.020 --> 01:15:18.520 and, and then I got offered a job. 01:15:18.700 --> 01:15:19.480 That's quite quick. 01:15:19.980 --> 01:15:21.670 It was pretty quick. 01:15:22.140 --> 01:15:26.260 And I feel like it is very quick when I think back. 01:15:27.020 --> 01:15:32.520 I got offered a job and in that job, I would see five people back to back. 01:15:33.215 --> 01:15:34.385 Three or four days a week. 01:15:34.675 --> 01:15:35.435 Always with this horse, 01:15:35.875 --> 01:15:36.245 Rupert Isaacson: Phoenix? 01:15:36.475 --> 01:15:37.325 Jane Faulkner: No, no. 01:15:37.345 --> 01:15:38.355 With the new herd. 01:15:38.555 --> 01:15:38.855 Okay. 01:15:38.925 --> 01:15:41.575 And it was a herd of four horses. 01:15:42.405 --> 01:15:47.885 And so to start with, it was a lot for me to kind of manage. 01:15:47.915 --> 01:15:53.965 And luckily they were well handled, well handled horses generally had good 01:15:54.025 --> 01:15:56.015 ground manners, except for Stevie. 01:15:56.025 --> 01:15:58.215 Stevie would threaten to bite and would nip. 01:15:58.705 --> 01:16:00.835 So I learned so much from him. 01:16:01.075 --> 01:16:01.695 And. 01:16:01.845 --> 01:16:09.255 I learned a lot about how his behaviors were often a response to the state of the 01:16:09.255 --> 01:16:14.075 nervous system of me or the person he was working with, because as the person and 01:16:14.075 --> 01:16:20.995 I settled, the nipping would reduce Yeah, so I worked there for a few years solidly, 01:16:21.015 --> 01:16:26.215 and I learned so much from those horses and kept working with Phoenix at home. 01:16:26.565 --> 01:16:29.955 By then I'd got Java as well and a little mini Sunny. 01:16:30.535 --> 01:16:35.155 And I think I've been working there maybe four years and people 01:16:35.155 --> 01:16:37.465 started asking me to teach them. 01:16:37.635 --> 01:16:40.165 And that's when I kind of put my training together. 01:16:40.805 --> 01:16:42.185 Yeah, and 01:16:42.455 --> 01:16:42.945 Rupert Isaacson: okay, 01:16:42.955 --> 01:16:48.055 Jane Faulkner: feel like I've been learning it very, very cavalierly 01:16:48.085 --> 01:16:50.895 Rupert Isaacson: said, and that's when I started putting my training together. 01:16:51.615 --> 01:16:56.465 Now, as someone who has this thing called horseboy method and a couple of 01:16:56.465 --> 01:17:00.005 other programs we do, you know, movement method without horses and this thing 01:17:00.005 --> 01:17:04.975 called TI, which is used to be called Athena which is The groundwork and 01:17:04.985 --> 01:17:06.675 the in hand work as its own therapy. 01:17:07.365 --> 01:17:13.625 I know that putting together a program is not something you just do. 01:17:14.095 --> 01:17:18.335 Yes, it looks that way from the outside, but it's, it's a torturous process. 01:17:18.335 --> 01:17:21.865 And you know, a lot of us when we, who've done that sort of 01:17:21.865 --> 01:17:22.855 thing when we look back we go. 01:17:23.105 --> 01:17:29.645 Wow, how did I think at the beginning that I would be able to, you know, and 01:17:29.645 --> 01:17:33.285 the learning curve you go through just like how much is involved in this. 01:17:33.965 --> 01:17:35.755 If you want it to be of use to people. 01:17:36.475 --> 01:17:39.545 Yeah, talk us through that learning curve, it must have been. 01:17:40.685 --> 01:17:44.125 Somewhat steep and somewhat of a somewhat exhausting 01:17:45.475 --> 01:17:50.125 Jane Faulkner: it was, it was so for me I hadn't even contemplated training and 01:17:50.125 --> 01:17:52.635 then people were asking me to mentor them. 01:17:52.705 --> 01:17:55.455 And then someone said, why, why don't you do your own training? 01:17:56.145 --> 01:17:59.045 And a decision I came to was, I don't want it. 01:17:59.315 --> 01:18:00.985 I want it to be government accredited. 01:18:01.725 --> 01:18:07.295 So I looked into what that would, what was involved in that, and I think I'm a very 01:18:07.295 --> 01:18:10.495 rose colored glasses person, super naive. 01:18:10.755 --> 01:18:13.245 So I thought, okay, I'll become an RTO. 01:18:13.815 --> 01:18:18.535 So, what is that a registered training organization? 01:18:18.695 --> 01:18:19.985 So it's like a college. 01:18:20.035 --> 01:18:23.715 Yeah, so it's, it's like the government kind of says that. 01:18:24.020 --> 01:18:28.150 You go through all these processes for the government to approve what you tell us 01:18:28.360 --> 01:18:30.620 Rupert Isaacson: in brief, what it's summary, what are the processes 01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:33.200 that someone has to go through if they want to be that they 01:18:33.200 --> 01:18:34.790 want to be government recognized. 01:18:35.455 --> 01:18:36.625 Jane Faulkner: It's huge. 01:18:36.715 --> 01:18:43.125 So, you have to have a lot of, lots of policies and procedures in place. 01:18:43.130 --> 01:18:46.245 And so you've gotta prove the way you enroll people, 01:18:46.250 --> 01:18:47.925 the way you market, the way. 01:18:47.930 --> 01:18:48.795 Who do you have to 01:18:48.795 --> 01:18:49.905 Rupert Isaacson: prove this to? 01:18:50.345 --> 01:18:51.965 What's even the application process? 01:18:51.965 --> 01:18:53.255 How do you even begin this? 01:18:53.900 --> 01:18:58.200 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, so in Australia, we've got a governing body called ASQA, 01:18:58.290 --> 01:19:00.560 the Australian Skills Quality Authority. 01:19:01.620 --> 01:19:06.770 So you put together a training and even to do that, so what I had to do was. 01:19:07.435 --> 01:19:11.615 Put together a, an outline of what I wanted to train. 01:19:12.025 --> 01:19:13.855 Then I had to go to industry body. 01:19:13.885 --> 01:19:17.365 So I had to go to the Australian counseling association, the psychotherapy 01:19:17.365 --> 01:19:22.235 and counseling federation of Australia and equine Australia, equestrian Australia. 01:19:22.535 --> 01:19:26.425 And I said, I had to say, Hey, I want to do this equine assisted therapy training. 01:19:26.865 --> 01:19:27.665 Will you. 01:19:28.010 --> 01:19:34.450 Agree that we need it in Australia and the Australian Counseling Association came 01:19:34.450 --> 01:19:36.230 back to me and said, no, we won't agree. 01:19:36.580 --> 01:19:41.510 We don't think a qualification of just equine assisted therapy is enough. 01:19:42.090 --> 01:19:44.200 And so I was like, gosh, what can I do? 01:19:44.500 --> 01:19:49.360 And someone that was helping me at the time said, why don't you add counseling? 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:53.940 So I added the Diploma of Counseling and the equine handling, like, 01:19:57.900 --> 01:20:01.940 And I went back to the Australian counseling Association, and I said, would 01:20:01.940 --> 01:20:03.600 you approve it if it looks like this? 01:20:03.700 --> 01:20:07.740 And they said, yes, because then your graduates can work in a room 01:20:07.740 --> 01:20:09.200 base as a counselor or outside. 01:20:09.865 --> 01:20:11.005 In the paddock with horses. 01:20:11.515 --> 01:20:13.025 So that was the beginning of the process. 01:20:13.065 --> 01:20:17.575 Then I had to, so in the diploma of counseling, you've 01:20:17.575 --> 01:20:19.745 got 17 units of competency. 01:20:20.635 --> 01:20:24.945 And each of those units of competency have all these assessment tasks that 01:20:24.945 --> 01:20:27.625 you've got to kind of assess and teach. 01:20:28.045 --> 01:20:32.605 And so I had to kind of go through all of that and create 01:20:32.605 --> 01:20:36.135 a curriculum and assessments and do that for the equine handling. 01:20:36.175 --> 01:20:39.505 And then for my own equine assisted mental health. 01:20:40.270 --> 01:20:41.180 stuff as well. 01:20:41.820 --> 01:20:45.570 So that was kind of the process and it was huge. 01:20:45.650 --> 01:20:48.510 Like it's when I look back now, I'm just like, my God. 01:20:48.855 --> 01:20:49.445 Rupert Isaacson: Another question. 01:20:49.445 --> 01:20:49.965 Thank God I 01:20:49.965 --> 01:20:50.565 Jane Faulkner: didn't know. 01:20:50.875 --> 01:20:51.145 Yes. 01:20:51.585 --> 01:20:54.095 Rupert Isaacson: You've also got to put yourself forward, presumably, 01:20:54.135 --> 01:21:00.565 as someone who can have judgment and discernment as to whether or not someone 01:21:00.565 --> 01:21:04.365 can, is, is, is jumping these hurdles. 01:21:04.665 --> 01:21:07.725 So what do you have to prove to the government bodies and the 01:21:07.725 --> 01:21:10.425 governing bodies about yourself? 01:21:11.115 --> 01:21:15.265 Because you're not a psychiatrist, for example, or, or whatever you might say, 01:21:15.265 --> 01:21:18.125 well, I have this qualification here and I have that qualification there. 01:21:18.715 --> 01:21:21.435 But yeah, what what hoops do they want you to jump through. 01:21:22.875 --> 01:21:25.515 Jane Faulkner: So they needed to see my qualifications. 01:21:25.905 --> 01:21:31.405 That I needed to see my experience and then I needed to get different people. 01:21:31.445 --> 01:21:37.975 So other psychologists, other people in the industry to kind of sign off 01:21:38.275 --> 01:21:41.465 that I was, yeah, yeah, pretty much. 01:21:42.205 --> 01:21:44.345 Rupert Isaacson: Did it help that you had the background as a nurse? 01:21:45.525 --> 01:21:46.445 That, that, that I think it 01:21:46.445 --> 01:21:46.795 Jane Faulkner: definitely, 01:21:47.335 --> 01:21:51.425 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, that underneath it all, there was this solid, I went and got. 01:21:51.845 --> 01:21:54.095 My qualifications in medicine in this way. 01:21:55.005 --> 01:21:57.075 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, definitely that. 01:21:57.075 --> 01:21:59.005 And, and I'd worked in the mental health. 01:21:59.115 --> 01:22:03.255 So I'd worked in mental health units, adolescent and adult mental health. 01:22:03.255 --> 01:22:07.935 So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:22:08.945 --> 01:22:10.325 So that really helped 01:22:10.585 --> 01:22:13.835 Rupert Isaacson: in retrospect that those skills that you learned early, 01:22:13.835 --> 01:22:19.765 despite the fact that you didn't like the system ended up being the foundation 01:22:19.765 --> 01:22:21.185 from what you could build another system. 01:22:21.185 --> 01:22:21.205 Yeah. 01:22:22.075 --> 01:22:25.515 Jane Faulkner: Definitely, and when I look back, like the learning, so, 01:22:25.635 --> 01:22:30.025 because where I was a nurse in the adolescent and adult mental health unit 01:22:30.215 --> 01:22:37.435 is a very low socioeconomic area in Queensland and I learned a lot about 01:22:37.935 --> 01:22:44.935 mental health, about keeping myself safe, about supporting people to deescalate. 01:22:44.935 --> 01:22:46.225 I learned a lot of skills. 01:22:47.175 --> 01:22:49.305 Yeah, that still helped me today. 01:22:49.565 --> 01:22:54.145 And I think it's really helpful to actually be in the system and 01:22:54.185 --> 01:22:58.395 see the system so that you can understand what people go through. 01:22:58.645 --> 01:23:00.425 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I would agree. 01:23:00.515 --> 01:23:01.125 I would agree. 01:23:01.465 --> 01:23:05.355 So how long did this whole accreditation process takes you? 01:23:05.355 --> 01:23:05.655 How long? 01:23:05.655 --> 01:23:08.225 Jane Faulkner: I think it took about a year and a half 01:23:08.495 --> 01:23:08.775 Rupert Isaacson: again. 01:23:08.775 --> 01:23:09.665 That's not very long. 01:23:09.665 --> 01:23:11.175 I was expecting you to say five years. 01:23:11.995 --> 01:23:12.135 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:23:12.255 --> 01:23:16.535 Well, it took a year and a half for me to be approved and up and running. 01:23:17.015 --> 01:23:18.005 I feel like. 01:23:18.670 --> 01:23:22.580 It's taken till now to get it to a point that I'm happy with. 01:23:22.630 --> 01:23:25.360 And I feel like, okay, it's finally written and done. 01:23:25.850 --> 01:23:27.930 And that's I started in 2016. 01:23:28.070 --> 01:23:28.970 So that's 8 years. 01:23:29.350 --> 01:23:29.640 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:23:29.640 --> 01:23:30.720 That sounds more likely. 01:23:30.720 --> 01:23:32.710 Yes. 01:23:32.710 --> 01:23:33.000 Yeah. 01:23:33.050 --> 01:23:33.370 Okay. 01:23:33.380 --> 01:23:33.740 Yeah. 01:23:34.420 --> 01:23:38.060 And do you, what do you have to do to prove to your accrediting bodies? 01:23:38.790 --> 01:23:41.240 Sort of year to year that you're still that you're not bullshit 01:23:41.310 --> 01:23:44.760 that you're still standards are kept up, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:23:44.760 --> 01:23:45.430 What do you need to do? 01:23:46.690 --> 01:23:49.390 Jane Faulkner: So they come in and they go over everything. 01:23:49.720 --> 01:23:52.830 So, they go over the assessments, they go for student answers, 01:23:52.870 --> 01:23:54.570 they go over what I'm teaching. 01:23:55.100 --> 01:23:57.750 They ask students for feedback. 01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:02.750 So they have a record of who my students are, so they can go directly to those 01:24:02.780 --> 01:24:04.740 students and ask them for feedback. 01:24:05.360 --> 01:24:06.400 That's pretty much. 01:24:06.660 --> 01:24:10.310 Rupert Isaacson: If they get feedback that isn't positive, how does that affect 01:24:10.350 --> 01:24:12.280 what, what do they come to you with? 01:24:12.480 --> 01:24:14.740 Because I mean, not everyone's going to always say something positive, right? 01:24:14.930 --> 01:24:19.040 So are they coming back to you with every single nitpick and saying, 01:24:19.650 --> 01:24:22.010 you've got to address this, or are they just looking for patterns? 01:24:22.010 --> 01:24:25.230 And they also have manpower problems, right? 01:24:25.350 --> 01:24:26.170 How deeply can they? 01:24:26.170 --> 01:24:26.410 Yes, 01:24:27.460 --> 01:24:27.880 Jane Faulkner: totally. 01:24:27.880 --> 01:24:31.520 No, they more look for patterns and they'll say, hey, can you show us this? 01:24:32.080 --> 01:24:34.520 And then they'll say, okay, you need to rectify this. 01:24:35.285 --> 01:24:37.435 And you've got this amount of time to do it. 01:24:38.455 --> 01:24:38.915 Yeah. 01:24:39.905 --> 01:24:42.085 Rupert Isaacson: And the way it's rectified would be, you would have 01:24:42.095 --> 01:24:45.725 to then say, I've put these policies in place and then they would come 01:24:45.725 --> 01:24:48.765 in again and do another assessment and see is the feedback better. 01:24:50.375 --> 01:24:50.765 Okay. 01:24:51.175 --> 01:24:51.475 Okay. 01:24:51.635 --> 01:24:53.105 So there's a fair amount of stress involved. 01:24:53.105 --> 01:24:57.585 I mean, you know, it's possible to lose the accreditation too, I should imagine. 01:24:58.445 --> 01:24:59.325 Jane Faulkner: Definitely. 01:24:59.345 --> 01:24:59.915 Definitely. 01:24:59.915 --> 01:25:05.750 And I know it's probably only been the last year or two that I've learnt not let 01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:09.430 that feel like a massive weight before then it felt like a massive weight. 01:25:09.430 --> 01:25:12.560 It felt like they could swoop in at any time. 01:25:12.730 --> 01:25:13.190 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:25:13.870 --> 01:25:14.470 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:25:14.530 --> 01:25:17.690 I think I think what's helped is seeing students. 01:25:18.080 --> 01:25:19.210 I really see students. 01:25:19.850 --> 01:25:22.790 Change and grow over the time they do the training. 01:25:22.940 --> 01:25:28.060 So the training's now two years and seeing them be practitioners, and 01:25:28.580 --> 01:25:32.030 I think I've learnt to believe in it and stand strong in it myself. 01:25:32.035 --> 01:25:34.010 And I think that has changed. 01:25:34.070 --> 01:25:35.210 So I'm not as fearful. 01:25:35.210 --> 01:25:39.700 I, I know that I can stand up for decisions I've made and why we 01:25:39.700 --> 01:25:41.320 do things the way we do things. 01:25:41.905 --> 01:25:45.715 with that accrediting body now, whereas before then, I don't 01:25:45.715 --> 01:25:47.345 think I felt so strong in it. 01:25:48.115 --> 01:25:50.365 Rupert Isaacson: And at the end of the two years, someone who's gone through 01:25:50.365 --> 01:25:54.725 the program with you is an equine assisted psychotherapist effectively, is 01:25:55.605 --> 01:25:57.125 what they are, or what do you call it? 01:25:57.945 --> 01:26:01.065 Jane Faulkner: We say they're an equine assisted mental health practitioner. 01:26:01.075 --> 01:26:01.395 Okay, 01:26:01.415 --> 01:26:03.295 Rupert Isaacson: an equine assisted mental health practitioner. 01:26:03.885 --> 01:26:06.735 Are you doing all the teaching and the mentorship yourself? 01:26:07.025 --> 01:26:07.965 Are you now a team? 01:26:08.185 --> 01:26:09.315 Do you have other campuses? 01:26:09.365 --> 01:26:09.895 Is it all in one? 01:26:10.375 --> 01:26:11.915 In one place that you do this. 01:26:13.005 --> 01:26:13.365 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:26:13.395 --> 01:26:13.565 How 01:26:13.565 --> 01:26:14.125 Rupert Isaacson: has it grown? 01:26:14.955 --> 01:26:15.395 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:26:15.655 --> 01:26:21.345 So, we're in Gold Coast where I am and Melbourne and Sydney, and we have 01:26:21.605 --> 01:26:24.635 other trainers that have come in, which has been, I think that's really 01:26:24.635 --> 01:26:27.025 helped me stand stronger in it as well. 01:26:27.165 --> 01:26:30.535 I think other people to ask questions, other people looking 01:26:30.545 --> 01:26:35.955 at the material, other people kind of, giving feedback and adding the. 01:26:36.755 --> 01:26:39.025 pieces to it has been really helpful. 01:26:40.405 --> 01:26:41.275 Rupert Isaacson: What's your process? 01:26:41.305 --> 01:26:45.755 So if someone becomes this, this equine assisted mental health 01:26:45.755 --> 01:26:50.745 practitioner from them to go for that, from that was first qualification up 01:26:50.775 --> 01:26:54.195 to say, becoming a trainer in what you do, what do they have to do? 01:26:54.795 --> 01:26:57.105 Jane Faulkner: Lots of experience in the field. 01:26:57.425 --> 01:26:59.745 So see lots of clients. 01:27:00.385 --> 01:27:04.675 And I guess generally the people that are trainers now work 01:27:04.675 --> 01:27:06.265 with me as a support person. 01:27:06.755 --> 01:27:10.415 So they kind of are with me in the training, supporting 01:27:10.415 --> 01:27:13.435 me to do the trainings as well as seeing their own clients. 01:27:14.005 --> 01:27:17.415 And then there's that transition into them being so it's 01:27:17.425 --> 01:27:19.865 Rupert Isaacson: not it's not necessarily a structured series 01:27:19.865 --> 01:27:21.335 of courses that they have to do. 01:27:21.585 --> 01:27:26.215 It's more that you monitor their work over a set number of years and 01:27:26.695 --> 01:27:32.155 see that the results they're getting and it's more an assessment by you. 01:27:32.845 --> 01:27:33.735 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, competency 01:27:34.265 --> 01:27:34.555 Rupert Isaacson: or 01:27:35.125 --> 01:27:38.185 Jane Faulkner: yeah, yeah, more a feeling into whether they fit. 01:27:40.615 --> 01:27:46.165 My business, I guess, and the way that I want to deliver this work and 01:27:46.165 --> 01:27:50.715 the way that I want to kind of, yeah, support people to learn this work. 01:27:50.715 --> 01:27:51.160 So, 01:27:52.180 --> 01:27:52.690 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:27:52.810 --> 01:27:56.680 I know that you've, you, I'm, I'm probably impinging on your time here. 01:27:56.740 --> 01:27:57.225 'cause you have a lot. 01:27:57.225 --> 01:27:57.825 No, not at all. 01:27:57.940 --> 01:28:00.670 You have an evening , but there's, there's some other questions that I'm, 01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:06.070 I'm curious about, you said at the out outset that you were moving to, from 01:28:06.130 --> 01:28:07.780 Unmounted work towards mounted work. 01:28:07.885 --> 01:28:08.105 Mm. 01:28:09.020 --> 01:28:09.200 Jane Faulkner: Tell us 01:28:09.200 --> 01:28:09.620 Rupert Isaacson: about that. 01:28:09.860 --> 01:28:11.527 A y and the, and how? 01:28:11.660 --> 01:28:11.870 Yes. 01:28:13.135 --> 01:28:13.935 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah. 01:28:14.375 --> 01:28:17.665 So for me, this is where I'd love to do your training, Rupert, but 01:28:17.705 --> 01:28:23.195 for me, I work very semantically. 01:28:23.205 --> 01:28:28.595 So I've done, I was a yoga teacher for five years, full time. 01:28:28.665 --> 01:28:31.955 And that massage therapy on top of that, I've always been a person 01:28:31.965 --> 01:28:37.435 that is in, it needs to move their body and values the body. 01:28:38.215 --> 01:28:43.765 And I see that with certain clients, especially people with. 01:28:44.305 --> 01:28:50.945 Those early relational traumas, so complex PTSD, I see that being on 01:28:50.945 --> 01:28:55.495 the horse has more of an impact on them than being beside the horse and 01:28:55.495 --> 01:28:59.405 being held, learning to be held by the horse, feeling that movement, 01:28:59.555 --> 01:29:02.235 you know, just that rocking movement. 01:29:02.315 --> 01:29:04.615 So, I'm not sure how. 01:29:05.170 --> 01:29:06.290 I'm going to do it yet. 01:29:06.290 --> 01:29:09.050 I just know that that's what I'm really drawn to 01:29:09.840 --> 01:29:10.760 Rupert Isaacson: really drawn to 01:29:10.760 --> 01:29:15.580 Jane Faulkner: that, to that mountain work from a, that real somatic lens. 01:29:15.650 --> 01:29:21.330 So before I became an RTO, I had to do some training in 01:29:21.330 --> 01:29:22.800 being a writing instructor. 01:29:22.990 --> 01:29:28.420 And I had very little of my own experience as Riding horses or 01:29:28.420 --> 01:29:31.460 being a riding instructor, but I had a lot of experience with yoga. 01:29:32.710 --> 01:29:37.160 And so I taught my writing lessons from a yogic perspective. 01:29:37.300 --> 01:29:37.710 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:39.680 Jane Faulkner: And it was amazing. 01:29:40.570 --> 01:29:41.440 Rupert Isaacson: Give us an example. 01:29:42.440 --> 01:29:46.170 Jane Faulkner: So, there's this old cowboy and he was on a horse and the 01:29:46.180 --> 01:29:51.050 horse was stressed and uptight and he was pulling on the reins really hard. 01:29:51.110 --> 01:29:56.090 And the cowboy's shoulders were up near his ears and. 01:29:56.655 --> 01:30:00.805 I just kind of, I guess ask him to change his body. 01:30:00.805 --> 01:30:02.565 Like I would say in a yoga class. 01:30:02.615 --> 01:30:05.405 So I was like, okay, I want you to deepen your breath, relax your 01:30:05.405 --> 01:30:09.685 shoulders, relax your hands kind of become more aware of your pelvis. 01:30:10.415 --> 01:30:11.415 Relax your legs. 01:30:11.415 --> 01:30:13.055 And as he did that, the horse relaxed. 01:30:13.675 --> 01:30:17.565 And I remember this other old horseman guy goes, wow, who taught you that? 01:30:19.105 --> 01:30:21.015 And I said to him, Oh, it's yoga. 01:30:21.075 --> 01:30:23.125 And he just looked at me as if I was crazy, 01:30:23.535 --> 01:30:24.205 Rupert Isaacson: but 01:30:25.205 --> 01:30:29.005 Jane Faulkner: there's just, I, I'm, I just feel that. 01:30:30.265 --> 01:30:33.655 Humans have much more of an impact on a horse than we realize, 01:30:34.325 --> 01:30:34.795 Rupert Isaacson: and 01:30:34.915 --> 01:30:39.245 Jane Faulkner: we're so out of aware, we're so out of awareness of our 01:30:39.245 --> 01:30:45.275 body and how, how we're holding a body impacts the being beneath us. 01:30:46.055 --> 01:30:50.615 And for me as a therapist, when I'm working with someone on a horse. 01:30:51.335 --> 01:30:55.715 The horse tells me about state shifts within the person sometimes before I 01:30:55.725 --> 01:31:00.925 can recognize those state shifts in the person and I see that when someone's 01:31:00.925 --> 01:31:06.635 on a horse as the horse relaxes, as their stride lengthens, it reflects 01:31:06.635 --> 01:31:08.635 what's happening inside that person. 01:31:08.825 --> 01:31:09.385 And so. 01:31:10.060 --> 01:31:14.550 I can kind of observe the horse and support the person to change 01:31:14.570 --> 01:31:18.180 things within their body and then the horse reflects the change. 01:31:18.580 --> 01:31:18.830 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:31:19.280 --> 01:31:20.520 Yes, no, absolutely. 01:31:20.520 --> 01:31:21.890 That makes all makes perfect sense. 01:31:22.400 --> 01:31:26.280 One of the interesting things about the old master system of. 01:31:26.665 --> 01:31:30.755 Dressage, I'm not talking about dressage as stressage for a judge, I'm talking 01:31:30.755 --> 01:31:35.365 about, you know, the, the art of dressing a horse, which is to help it put the 01:31:35.505 --> 01:31:37.065 hind legs under the point of gravity. 01:31:37.095 --> 01:31:38.345 And that's what collection is. 01:31:38.345 --> 01:31:42.485 And the humor and the horse become a unit at that point, and 01:31:42.485 --> 01:31:43.705 can move in three dimensions. 01:31:43.725 --> 01:31:46.955 And that's evolved over thousands of years. 01:31:47.005 --> 01:31:50.035 It acts as whether it's working on the ground or whether it's working 01:31:50.035 --> 01:31:52.855 from the saddle it acts as both a yoga and a martial art, because 01:31:52.855 --> 01:31:57.655 it's it's designed for both so it can train, but it can also rehab. 01:31:58.255 --> 01:31:59.485 It can maintain. 01:32:00.325 --> 01:32:02.225 It can also develop. 01:32:02.765 --> 01:32:06.065 And I think that if you're coming from a yoga perspective, I think 01:32:06.075 --> 01:32:09.085 that's a very easy concept to get. 01:32:09.395 --> 01:32:12.335 Whereas I think if one's coming from just a straight up horse 01:32:12.365 --> 01:32:15.645 training, I am a monkey that tells a horse what to do perspective. 01:32:15.645 --> 01:32:19.395 It is not so easy to get the martial arts perspective might be easier to get. 01:32:19.625 --> 01:32:21.055 I'm training this horse to go to war. 01:32:21.075 --> 01:32:22.645 I'm training this horse to catch a cow. 01:32:22.995 --> 01:32:24.615 I'm training this horse to go for this jump. 01:32:24.825 --> 01:32:25.145 Yes. 01:32:25.965 --> 01:32:28.295 But of course, as we know, that's only one. 01:32:29.290 --> 01:32:33.080 Part of a very big hole and it may not even be part of of it. 01:32:33.670 --> 01:32:34.850 So I'm rather intrigued. 01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:37.835 I'd love to collaborate with you because I think coming from those two perspectives. 01:32:38.365 --> 01:32:43.085 that perspective that you have, again, offers interesting insights to people 01:32:43.085 --> 01:32:46.055 when they're having to rethink how they approach horses and horse training. 01:32:46.575 --> 01:32:50.135 Which is difficult if you grew up with it because you're, you're just, 01:32:50.135 --> 01:32:53.855 you're, you're synapses in your brain are fairly hardwired at that point. 01:32:54.125 --> 01:32:57.305 One has an, and your body to unlearn certain things. 01:32:57.815 --> 01:33:02.235 When I, when I was learning classical dressage, which I had to do when I 01:33:02.255 --> 01:33:06.960 realized that it was soft collection that created the oxytocin in the 01:33:06.960 --> 01:33:11.930 child or the adult that calmed down the amygdala, the stress 01:33:11.930 --> 01:33:13.690 hormone, cortisol canceled that out. 01:33:13.870 --> 01:33:16.230 And of course, it's a communication hormone, oxytocin. 01:33:16.860 --> 01:33:18.130 So makes them communicate. 01:33:18.130 --> 01:33:21.550 And I realized, Oh, I need to learn more about this and do my deep dive. 01:33:21.550 --> 01:33:23.580 And of course, at that point, I was very much more of a sort of jumping 01:33:23.580 --> 01:33:27.090 rider, lots of tension in the leg, lots of tension in the body, which you 01:33:27.090 --> 01:33:28.540 actually sort of need for that job. 01:33:29.040 --> 01:33:31.110 And then I realized, Oh, I had to neutralize. 01:33:31.520 --> 01:33:34.420 And that took me about five years. 01:33:34.995 --> 01:33:37.925 You know, so when I'm, when I'm approaching and then I realized I 01:33:37.925 --> 01:33:41.125 could actually, but all the training has to be done from the ground so that 01:33:41.135 --> 01:33:44.985 there can be a neutral rider up there who can just flow with the horse. 01:33:45.515 --> 01:33:50.705 When I'm working with people who are coming out of a lifetime of horses. 01:33:51.355 --> 01:33:55.775 This can be tricky because no one likes to be a beginner again, obviously. 01:33:56.135 --> 01:33:58.855 And also there are, as you said, just these sort of synapses. 01:33:59.525 --> 01:34:01.885 Mental pathways that are very hardwired that need to be. 01:34:02.655 --> 01:34:05.675 So, so something, the way you just explained it there, I think could 01:34:05.685 --> 01:34:09.265 be very useful for someone that is needing to go to that next phase 01:34:09.385 --> 01:34:14.365 with horses, but doesn't quite know how that sort of glassy feel. 01:34:15.165 --> 01:34:15.415 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:34:15.985 --> 01:34:20.405 And what's really cool is, you know, you're talking about needing to check you 01:34:20.405 --> 01:34:26.815 needing to change the body, bringing your body back into neutral and you doing that. 01:34:27.150 --> 01:34:32.810 Through working with the body has an impact on who you are as a human, 01:34:33.120 --> 01:34:37.510 on how you do relationships on how you think on everything about you. 01:34:38.050 --> 01:34:42.180 And that's what I love to like, Deb Dana who writes a lot of, 01:34:42.190 --> 01:34:45.760 yeah, talks about, you know, change the state, change the story. 01:34:46.090 --> 01:34:49.440 And this is what I love about working with the body. 01:34:49.700 --> 01:34:52.840 You know, when you bring a sense of ease to the body and a sense of 01:34:52.840 --> 01:34:58.150 relaxation and openness the whole way our mind sees the world changes, 01:34:58.190 --> 01:35:00.580 Rupert Isaacson: which is difficult to do when you're an anxious monkey 01:35:01.250 --> 01:35:04.770 sitting on a moving barrel that has a mind of it and a sense of humor 01:35:04.960 --> 01:35:05.980 and you are the butt of the joke. 01:35:06.180 --> 01:35:06.380 Yes, 01:35:07.990 --> 01:35:09.600 Jane Faulkner: very, very totally. 01:35:09.600 --> 01:35:12.770 I, I wanted to share. 01:35:12.770 --> 01:35:15.590 I went to Mongolia to my husband and I. 01:35:15.630 --> 01:35:16.530 Yeah, we went there. 01:35:16.640 --> 01:35:18.100 We did a 19 day. 01:35:18.385 --> 01:35:20.505 Horse riding, we went up to the reindeer people. 01:35:20.605 --> 01:35:21.195 Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic. 01:35:21.925 --> 01:35:22.495 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:35:22.545 --> 01:35:24.795 And so it was amazing. 01:35:24.835 --> 01:35:25.225 Gosh. 01:35:25.435 --> 01:35:26.035 You may well have met 01:35:26.065 --> 01:35:27.845 Rupert Isaacson: the same people that I was with, with my son. 01:35:28.765 --> 01:35:30.925 Jane Faulkner: What a magical country. 01:35:31.355 --> 01:35:32.535 I just loved Mongolia. 01:35:33.295 --> 01:35:34.555 Intact ecosystem. 01:35:34.595 --> 01:35:34.915 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:35:34.915 --> 01:35:36.205 Jane Faulkner: Ah, that. 01:35:36.225 --> 01:35:38.035 And, and their people. 01:35:38.165 --> 01:35:38.445 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:35:38.745 --> 01:35:39.765 Jane Faulkner: Like that. 01:35:39.765 --> 01:35:40.975 The people that live in intact 01:35:41.225 --> 01:35:41.965 Rupert Isaacson: ecosystems, you know. 01:35:42.225 --> 01:35:42.795 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 01:35:43.060 --> 01:35:43.100 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:35:43.100 --> 01:35:44.060 Tend to be cool, right? 01:35:44.420 --> 01:35:44.660 Yeah. 01:35:45.650 --> 01:35:47.090 Jane Faulkner: They blew me away. 01:35:47.140 --> 01:35:54.100 Just how authentic they were, how even I took kind real, I loved their realness. 01:35:54.250 --> 01:35:58.870 Like, cause I, I talked to students a lot about boundaries and how 01:35:58.920 --> 01:36:00.510 in Mongolia, there's no fences. 01:36:00.510 --> 01:36:00.530 Yeah. 01:36:00.900 --> 01:36:01.160 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:36:01.190 --> 01:36:01.340 But 01:36:01.340 --> 01:36:03.430 Jane Faulkner: they have a deep respect for boundaries. 01:36:03.490 --> 01:36:03.680 Yeah. 01:36:03.710 --> 01:36:05.650 So they don't need the physical fences. 01:36:05.790 --> 01:36:09.000 Like we don't respect boundaries and we need the fences. 01:36:09.420 --> 01:36:09.960 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:36:10.830 --> 01:36:13.340 And fences can be broken and climbed over and jumped over. 01:36:13.400 --> 01:36:13.680 Yeah. 01:36:14.230 --> 01:36:14.780 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 01:36:15.010 --> 01:36:15.780 Yeah. 01:36:15.840 --> 01:36:16.240 Yeah. 01:36:16.520 --> 01:36:18.420 But I loved their Buddhism shamanism. 01:36:18.960 --> 01:36:25.740 That was just like, Oh, and not the, not the in doctrine, not the dogma of it. 01:36:26.150 --> 01:36:27.190 The living of it. 01:36:27.420 --> 01:36:28.210 That's what I loved. 01:36:28.580 --> 01:36:30.390 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'm so with you. 01:36:30.890 --> 01:36:34.215 And actually, you know, you were talking about working with First 01:36:34.215 --> 01:36:39.885 Nations elder there in Queensland the, the, the, this thing of informing 01:36:39.885 --> 01:36:41.375 oneself through indigenous wisdom. 01:36:42.175 --> 01:36:46.255 One of the things one forgets is that horses don't come when 01:36:46.255 --> 01:36:47.335 you're a white person from Europe. 01:36:48.215 --> 01:36:49.425 Horsemanship is not European. 01:36:50.255 --> 01:36:51.585 It comes out of what it comes. 01:36:51.635 --> 01:36:52.515 It's a bit European. 01:36:52.515 --> 01:36:56.965 It comes out of the mixed, mixed liminal space between Europe and Asia. 01:36:57.660 --> 01:37:02.910 And, but it went more into Asia first before it came into Europe proper, 01:37:02.960 --> 01:37:06.500 it was, it was in Asia for thousands of years because that's where the 01:37:06.520 --> 01:37:11.600 civilizations were, you know, people in Europe, Western Europe, particularly, 01:37:11.600 --> 01:37:14.320 were just sort of living in forests for quite a while at that point. 01:37:14.460 --> 01:37:16.880 And so it doesn't really creep in. 01:37:17.490 --> 01:37:21.640 It are like you with a name like Falcon or me with a name like Isaacson. 01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:25.720 It doesn't come into the culture of our ancestors until quite a lot later. 01:37:26.320 --> 01:37:29.920 And, but it's still an indigenous thing and one of the. 01:37:30.790 --> 01:37:35.510 The conclusions that my wife and I came to a while ago, because we obviously we teach 01:37:35.510 --> 01:37:40.040 people a lot of dressage as well as the therapeutic stuff is you actually can't 01:37:40.050 --> 01:37:41.980 do it unless you do it in a tribal way. 01:37:42.470 --> 01:37:44.270 Because it's a tribal system. 01:37:44.670 --> 01:37:48.120 It came out of people living in tents who were families who collaborated. 01:37:48.510 --> 01:37:50.335 And when you go to. 01:37:50.745 --> 01:37:54.365 The Spanish Riding School of Vienna or the Royal School of Jerez in Spain. 01:37:54.585 --> 01:37:55.465 What, what do you observe? 01:37:55.465 --> 01:37:59.125 You see groups of people collaborating two to three at a time with a horse 01:37:59.495 --> 01:38:03.535 to help it understand as quickly and as easily with as much, not 01:38:03.535 --> 01:38:06.165 pressure, but moral support as it can. 01:38:06.195 --> 01:38:07.155 That's a tribal thing. 01:38:07.175 --> 01:38:09.585 So we have this program called Riots Clubs. 01:38:09.585 --> 01:38:15.420 We show people how to form Riding is a tribal sport and the difficulty 01:38:15.420 --> 01:38:17.000 is doing things in isolation. 01:38:17.060 --> 01:38:18.700 It's almost impossible, right? 01:38:19.120 --> 01:38:20.930 But of course, this is a message for life, right? 01:38:20.960 --> 01:38:21.270 Yeah. 01:38:23.750 --> 01:38:27.420 Jane Faulkner: I love have you heard about you know, how we, we kind of swallowed the 01:38:27.420 --> 01:38:29.990 Darwin theory of survival of the fittest. 01:38:30.320 --> 01:38:33.530 And you've heard of the Russian researcher that actually 01:38:33.530 --> 01:38:35.010 kind of debunked that theory. 01:38:35.260 --> 01:38:35.800 Tell us all about it. 01:38:35.860 --> 01:38:36.060 Yeah. 01:38:36.200 --> 01:38:36.340 Tell us 01:38:36.340 --> 01:38:36.740 Rupert Isaacson: about this. 01:38:37.230 --> 01:38:42.250 Jane Faulkner: I can't think of names, but so around the time that, that Darwin 01:38:42.280 --> 01:38:46.060 came to that conclusion of, you know, survival of the fittest the strongest 01:38:46.060 --> 01:38:47.940 conquers everything, the strongest wins. 01:38:48.640 --> 01:38:53.230 So, a Russian researcher around the same time did the same kind of 01:38:53.230 --> 01:38:55.390 research and he found the opposite. 01:38:55.870 --> 01:39:00.330 He found that the people that survived or the communities that survived and 01:39:00.330 --> 01:39:06.560 prospered were the people that could form relationships, the, the people that could 01:39:06.570 --> 01:39:11.550 form collaborations, the people that could be part of communities and the people that 01:39:11.550 --> 01:39:15.905 weren't able to make those relationships or sustain those relationships. 01:39:16.295 --> 01:39:19.265 And same as the animals, the people or the animals that weren't able 01:39:19.265 --> 01:39:21.105 to do that were the ones that died. 01:39:21.615 --> 01:39:21.885 Absolutely. 01:39:23.015 --> 01:39:28.445 It's just fascinating that we grabbed the Charles Darwin instead of the other one. 01:39:28.465 --> 01:39:28.675 Well, 01:39:28.735 --> 01:39:31.395 Rupert Isaacson: it suited our world view at the time, right, which was Yeah, 01:39:31.475 --> 01:39:32.075 Jane Faulkner: so true. 01:39:32.275 --> 01:39:34.445 Rupert Isaacson: But of course, what was colonialism? 01:39:34.615 --> 01:39:36.585 Colonialism was groups of people. 01:39:36.860 --> 01:39:42.490 Not single con We talk about Cortez, you know, he conquered Mexico. 01:39:42.490 --> 01:39:42.980 No, he didn't. 01:39:43.510 --> 01:39:49.340 Cortez was in charge of a very, very large group of people, all working cooperatively 01:39:49.930 --> 01:39:52.250 to do something psychopathic and horrible. 01:39:52.650 --> 01:39:55.920 But nonetheless, it was, you know, the people that conquered, 01:39:56.010 --> 01:39:59.660 in inverted commas, the American West were not John Wayne types. 01:40:00.070 --> 01:40:02.220 They tended to dive first in the desert. 01:40:02.620 --> 01:40:08.355 The John Wayne types who actually sort of made it were the ones who led and helped. 01:40:08.760 --> 01:40:11.240 groups of settlers come together. 01:40:11.660 --> 01:40:15.850 And of course, outside of the colonial experience, you know, I work a lot 01:40:15.850 --> 01:40:20.390 with hunting and gathering tribes, it's those are entirely, and those 01:40:20.390 --> 01:40:21.790 are the original human blueprints. 01:40:22.300 --> 01:40:27.490 Those are entirely cultures of conflict resolution, because if you have Conflict 01:40:27.490 --> 01:40:31.970 within your community, beyond a certain level, your community will fragment 01:40:31.990 --> 01:40:34.940 and if your community fragments, guess what you're a mid level predator. 01:40:35.180 --> 01:40:35.930 You're not top predator. 01:40:36.300 --> 01:40:38.340 So the lions will absolutely eat you. 01:40:38.570 --> 01:40:44.570 The only thing we've got is this ability oxytocin connection to strategize. 01:40:45.180 --> 01:40:47.200 with a speaking ape, we have the larynx. 01:40:47.750 --> 01:40:52.860 So we're very, very good at strategizing, but only if we feel connecting, connection 01:40:53.780 --> 01:40:56.220 and feel safe with our community. 01:40:56.220 --> 01:40:58.660 That is the only security we have. 01:40:59.160 --> 01:41:00.350 And I agree with you yet. 01:41:00.350 --> 01:41:04.170 We're sold a myth of the lone warrior hero. 01:41:04.750 --> 01:41:08.520 Like say it's Cú Chulainn, you know, the great Irish hero, the hound of us. 01:41:08.670 --> 01:41:10.370 Well, what happens to Cú Chulainn in the end? 01:41:10.690 --> 01:41:12.590 He gets killed gloriously. 01:41:14.325 --> 01:41:15.525 What happens to Hercules in the end? 01:41:15.525 --> 01:41:16.285 He gets killed. 01:41:16.315 --> 01:41:16.555 Okay. 01:41:16.555 --> 01:41:19.255 They put him in the staff, but you know, they're glorious deaths. 01:41:19.375 --> 01:41:22.515 Perhaps maybe they even think they go to Valhalla, die sword 01:41:22.515 --> 01:41:24.405 in hand, but fact is they die. 01:41:25.245 --> 01:41:25.615 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:41:26.225 --> 01:41:32.185 And not only that, like, I feel like I think of even our industry where we have 01:41:32.185 --> 01:41:35.338 this thing of who's the best or be the 01:41:35.338 --> 01:41:35.775 Rupert Isaacson: best 01:41:35.775 --> 01:41:36.735 Jane Faulkner: and it drives me nuts. 01:41:37.275 --> 01:41:39.685 It's like, why does there need to be a best? 01:41:39.945 --> 01:41:44.275 Well, if we all came together, The backbiting 01:41:44.275 --> 01:41:47.285 Rupert Isaacson: within, within the horse industry in general, within 01:41:47.515 --> 01:41:51.455 therapy industry in general, within academia, within therapeutic writing. 01:41:51.455 --> 01:41:58.065 We all know that it can be very toxic and the, the, the, the nastiness with 01:41:58.075 --> 01:42:00.365 which people treat each other is bizarre. 01:42:00.655 --> 01:42:03.235 Always to me, given that we're supposed to be in. 01:42:04.020 --> 01:42:05.440 a modality of healing. 01:42:05.660 --> 01:42:09.560 You don't have to like everybody working against people. 01:42:10.650 --> 01:42:13.760 How, how is that us doing our job? 01:42:14.680 --> 01:42:16.390 Jane Faulkner: To me, it slows us all down. 01:42:16.950 --> 01:42:21.270 You know, if our whole goal is to help people and to kind of 01:42:21.310 --> 01:42:22.770 make the world a better place. 01:42:23.160 --> 01:42:26.560 And I don't know, I just think, but if you think about it 01:42:27.000 --> 01:42:28.050 Rupert Isaacson: in a weird way. 01:42:28.120 --> 01:42:33.450 And we come by these dysfunctions and actually honestly, because we all get 01:42:33.450 --> 01:42:36.520 put through a school system where we're supposed to be in competition with our 01:42:36.520 --> 01:42:43.020 classmates, and then with other wider people out there in exams that will 01:42:43.020 --> 01:42:44.880 say, well, were your exams good enough. 01:42:45.160 --> 01:42:48.470 Against all these other people that you've never met to then get to this 01:42:48.470 --> 01:42:52.080 university and then at this university are your grades good enough, you know 01:42:52.080 --> 01:42:54.100 that you will get this level of degree. 01:42:54.470 --> 01:42:57.650 And then when you go out into the workplace, you've got to quote unquote 01:42:57.650 --> 01:43:00.140 prove yourself against your peers. 01:43:00.770 --> 01:43:03.380 And then if you add horses to that, and then academia. 01:43:03.900 --> 01:43:07.970 It's all about defending a position or you lose your job, you lose your funding. 01:43:08.030 --> 01:43:11.250 So you got to be right all the time, which means you must attack those who, 01:43:11.320 --> 01:43:13.490 you know, who take an opposing view. 01:43:15.040 --> 01:43:17.260 Because there's an economic imperative to that. 01:43:17.610 --> 01:43:20.000 And then horse people, well, what's the horse? 01:43:20.670 --> 01:43:22.850 What's the horse tradition we've inherited. 01:43:23.100 --> 01:43:26.380 Most of us that grew up with the sort of pony club, even though there were 01:43:26.790 --> 01:43:28.150 so many wonderful things with that. 01:43:28.640 --> 01:43:29.490 It's a military thing. 01:43:29.490 --> 01:43:34.160 It came out of the 1845, you know, military manuals that were in the 01:43:34.160 --> 01:43:37.790 cavalry schools and the people that ran riding schools in the old days 01:43:37.960 --> 01:43:41.050 were ex cavalry officers because that's what they did when they retired. 01:43:41.380 --> 01:43:45.980 So this whole sort of military industrial thing permeates and someone pops up at 01:43:45.980 --> 01:43:50.830 the end out of all that and says, well, now I'd like to use this modality of this 01:43:50.830 --> 01:43:53.280 thing I learned through academia to heal. 01:43:53.320 --> 01:43:56.740 And this thing I learned with the horse deal, but I've learned them through a 01:43:56.740 --> 01:43:58.240 sort of slightly sociopathic process. 01:43:58.830 --> 01:44:00.410 How can that not rub off on us? 01:44:01.080 --> 01:44:06.910 So I do have compassion for that and I do understand it, but it makes me sad because 01:44:07.190 --> 01:44:08.450 as you say, I feel it slows us down. 01:44:09.975 --> 01:44:10.545 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:44:10.905 --> 01:44:15.845 And I love that now we can at least talk about it and there's an awareness of it. 01:44:16.255 --> 01:44:18.115 I just have a question for you, Rupert, 01:44:19.055 --> 01:44:19.225 Rupert Isaacson: for 01:44:19.235 --> 01:44:20.935 Jane Faulkner: me, I'm the one doing 01:44:20.935 --> 01:44:21.695 Rupert Isaacson: the interviewing here. 01:44:25.425 --> 01:44:30.045 Jane Faulkner: The horses in Mongolia, there was just something so different 01:44:30.055 --> 01:44:32.795 about them to our domesticated horses. 01:44:33.455 --> 01:44:35.255 Like, I'm curious about that. 01:44:35.265 --> 01:44:37.195 And I'm, I just wonder what you all. 01:44:37.495 --> 01:44:43.615 So for me, what was different is they seem to, so even for me, the Mongolian 01:44:43.615 --> 01:44:47.605 people not naming their horses, but it was like the horse knew their role. 01:44:47.615 --> 01:44:49.045 The human knew their role. 01:44:49.115 --> 01:44:51.295 And there was a real cleanness to it. 01:44:51.975 --> 01:44:53.435 There wasn't this kind of. 01:44:54.010 --> 01:44:56.740 Merging or gray zone. 01:44:56.740 --> 01:44:58.870 It was kind of the horse has its job to do. 01:44:58.870 --> 01:45:00.340 I have my job to do. 01:45:00.840 --> 01:45:04.060 Cause there was, you could see the love for the horse and it was amazing 01:45:04.060 --> 01:45:06.490 to watch the Mongolian people ride. 01:45:06.620 --> 01:45:07.030 I just. 01:45:08.630 --> 01:45:11.190 Well, my husband and I were both like, wow, 01:45:13.070 --> 01:45:13.430 Rupert Isaacson: right. 01:45:13.460 --> 01:45:15.570 I mean, what, what you're looking at there is of course, one of the 01:45:15.570 --> 01:45:17.180 original versions of horsemanship. 01:45:17.320 --> 01:45:19.490 And so there's bad and good and there's everything. 01:45:19.850 --> 01:45:21.200 Jane Faulkner: I mean, people 01:45:21.240 --> 01:45:24.020 Rupert Isaacson: can be incredibly brutal and rough with their horses there. 01:45:24.510 --> 01:45:24.840 Jane Faulkner: But at the 01:45:24.840 --> 01:45:28.110 Rupert Isaacson: same time, the horses are also largely left alone to be horses. 01:45:28.730 --> 01:45:30.680 There are people who absolutely named their horses. 01:45:30.860 --> 01:45:36.460 And for example, there's a whole, there's a whole subculture of horse racing there. 01:45:36.845 --> 01:45:40.435 And, you know, very, very, a lot of money changes hands and it's not horse 01:45:40.435 --> 01:45:44.855 racing as we know, it's, it's, it's, it's the 30 mile races across country 01:45:45.025 --> 01:45:48.425 with eight year old jockeys, but nonetheless, it's, it's, it's a very 01:45:48.865 --> 01:45:49.575 Jane Faulkner: festival 01:45:50.325 --> 01:45:50.745 Rupert Isaacson: festival. 01:45:50.745 --> 01:45:50.975 Yeah. 01:45:51.025 --> 01:45:55.225 And then when it gets competitive the mounted archery amounted wrestling the 01:45:55.225 --> 01:45:59.105 nomad games cock Peru, which is the sort of rugby on horseback that they play. 01:45:59.525 --> 01:46:03.235 So, there's like in our culture there's working horsemanship. 01:46:03.235 --> 01:46:03.275 Yeah. 01:46:04.370 --> 01:46:06.990 Practical horsemanship and then the sport horsemanship and of 01:46:06.990 --> 01:46:08.570 course all the interplays between. 01:46:08.810 --> 01:46:12.420 But I think what's different there is that it's still a place where people 01:46:12.420 --> 01:46:17.150 genuinely rely, like truly, truly, truly rely on horses for their livelihood. 01:46:17.150 --> 01:46:21.410 It's not, it's not, it's not a, you can make a sport out of your culture, but 01:46:21.410 --> 01:46:22.990 the culture is the culture of the horse. 01:46:23.380 --> 01:46:26.700 I mean, to the point that they're wearing them, that they're eating 01:46:26.700 --> 01:46:28.440 them, that they're drinking them. 01:46:28.490 --> 01:46:29.110 That's so true. 01:46:29.290 --> 01:46:32.075 You know, the, the horse is everything in life. 01:46:32.075 --> 01:46:36.235 It's not just a thing you ride or it's not just transport or it's not 01:46:36.235 --> 01:46:38.345 just winning you money in a race. 01:46:38.345 --> 01:46:40.625 It's you, you are drinking it's milk, you're, you know, the whole lot. 01:46:41.075 --> 01:46:41.105 Mm. 01:46:41.425 --> 01:46:47.335 So the, the, and then of course what I, one thing I really liked about 01:46:47.335 --> 01:46:49.160 Mongolia was that they still revere. 01:46:50.040 --> 01:46:51.420 the original wild horse. 01:46:52.200 --> 01:46:54.230 So their horses are not wild. 01:46:54.230 --> 01:46:55.190 They are domestic horses. 01:46:55.190 --> 01:46:57.550 They just live very naturalistically. 01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:02.020 But there's still the Przewalski's horse and their name for the Przewalski's 01:47:02.200 --> 01:47:04.730 horse is Takin, which means honored one. 01:47:05.360 --> 01:47:06.600 That one you leave alone. 01:47:07.010 --> 01:47:07.880 It's really interesting. 01:47:07.890 --> 01:47:10.520 You, you respect, you absolutely respect its independence. 01:47:11.070 --> 01:47:15.690 So our, our program that we have, which is doing all the groundwork and 01:47:15.690 --> 01:47:20.700 the in hand dressage work as its own therapy, we call TEI, Taquine Equine 01:47:21.220 --> 01:47:26.580 Integration, because I liked that word of the Honored One of coming to the 01:47:26.580 --> 01:47:29.520 horse and saying, I do revere you. 01:47:30.070 --> 01:47:34.060 You, I'm going to anthropomorphize the shit out of this, but I 01:47:34.060 --> 01:47:35.525 do, I just have to, you know. 01:47:35.705 --> 01:47:39.535 Because horses do represent a big thing in our mythology and in our spirit and 01:47:39.535 --> 01:47:43.415 they represent freedom and they represent power and they represent beauty and they 01:47:43.415 --> 01:47:45.695 represent transformation and journey. 01:47:46.115 --> 01:47:48.005 And they just flat out do. 01:47:48.325 --> 01:47:50.655 And that is sort of because that is sort of what they do for us. 01:47:51.005 --> 01:47:52.705 So what can we do for them. 01:47:53.215 --> 01:47:55.065 We can honor them, we can honor them. 01:47:55.645 --> 01:47:57.225 In the same way that we can honor each other. 01:47:57.945 --> 01:47:58.245 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:47:58.245 --> 01:48:01.305 And I think that's so important because we miss that, don't we? 01:48:01.305 --> 01:48:01.605 We do. 01:48:02.450 --> 01:48:04.920 Just that I think that's a great thing to bring back in. 01:48:05.250 --> 01:48:09.740 But as you were talking and you spoke about their independence, and I think 01:48:09.750 --> 01:48:15.000 that's what stood out for me in the Mongolian horses, that I don't see so 01:48:15.030 --> 01:48:21.290 much in the domesticated horses here is this independence, this, almost this 01:48:21.520 --> 01:48:27.260 sovereignty, this kind of, I can, I mean, they're out living kind of wild and free 01:48:27.260 --> 01:48:29.170 for five months of the year over there. 01:48:29.560 --> 01:48:34.110 And I remember just really feeling this difference in the horses and in their 01:48:34.110 --> 01:48:36.400 kind of just the way their beingness. 01:48:36.400 --> 01:48:36.850 Absolutely. 01:48:36.850 --> 01:48:39.640 Rupert Isaacson: And there's, there's pros and cons with that because 01:48:39.670 --> 01:48:42.350 some of them die in the winter, some of them get eaten by wolves. 01:48:42.900 --> 01:48:44.320 You know, some of them, 01:48:46.555 --> 01:48:47.825 Dying childbirth or whatever. 01:48:48.195 --> 01:48:56.875 And, but one thing I think, I think you're right, that I took from it was, I've kept 01:48:56.885 --> 01:48:58.675 my horses in all sorts of different ways. 01:48:59.465 --> 01:48:59.725 Yeah. 01:48:59.835 --> 01:49:01.975 I've kept them in boxes, I've kept them not in boxes, I've 01:49:01.975 --> 01:49:03.155 kept them outside all the time. 01:49:03.760 --> 01:49:08.460 And what I've realized over time is my preference is to have horses that 01:49:08.460 --> 01:49:12.070 live out all the time, and that can come into a shelter, and in the winter 01:49:12.070 --> 01:49:15.330 here in Northern Europe, yes, you have to rug them, and that sort of thing. 01:49:15.630 --> 01:49:19.270 But you can have horses working at a very high performance level, 01:49:19.440 --> 01:49:23.010 living very naturalistically like that in a herd, moving in and out, 01:49:23.010 --> 01:49:24.510 eating at will, moving at will. 01:49:24.930 --> 01:49:29.070 And then if you are in a situation where you have to have a horse that's 01:49:29.100 --> 01:49:32.900 convenient and clean, like some of our horse boy centers, we have a lot of 01:49:32.900 --> 01:49:34.670 those places we'll put them out at night. 01:49:35.260 --> 01:49:38.170 And then in the day they might stand in so that you don't have to groom the horse 01:49:38.300 --> 01:49:41.900 from mud every single time you're going to put someone on it, which, okay, fine. 01:49:41.900 --> 01:49:44.530 So that's the working time of day and they're there and they're available, 01:49:44.530 --> 01:49:45.890 but they're also moving a lot. 01:49:45.950 --> 01:49:46.650 They're not bored. 01:49:46.650 --> 01:49:49.120 They're not standing hour after hour in a box. 01:49:49.140 --> 01:49:50.750 They're, they're, they're just kind of chilling. 01:49:51.075 --> 01:49:53.805 In between sessions, but then they're outside at night and they 01:49:53.805 --> 01:49:54.875 go back to being horses again. 01:49:55.375 --> 01:49:56.635 That's my preferred method. 01:49:56.675 --> 01:50:01.860 However, you know, I work in so many environments where people 01:50:01.860 --> 01:50:03.230 don't necessarily have that choice. 01:50:03.730 --> 01:50:08.110 And I've been around a lot of horsemanship clinics and symposiums 01:50:08.150 --> 01:50:10.560 where people shame each other and say, well, you shouldn't keep your 01:50:10.560 --> 01:50:11.450 horse in a box and you shouldn't. 01:50:11.710 --> 01:50:13.990 And someone says, well, I haven't got any choice because, you know, I 01:50:14.310 --> 01:50:17.950 bought my horse at this livery stable and these are the rules and I'm 01:50:17.950 --> 01:50:21.210 sorry, but I haven't got the money to buy myself, you know, 20 acres. 01:50:21.300 --> 01:50:25.690 And so, and what I realized with that is, yeah, what you need to do is kind of. 01:50:26.245 --> 01:50:31.385 do it the best you can while honoring the horse's need for independence, 01:50:31.385 --> 01:50:33.155 movement, choice, agency, and so on. 01:50:33.415 --> 01:50:37.485 But that can look quite different from horse owner to horse owner or 01:50:37.485 --> 01:50:41.475 barn to barn or local horse culture to local horse culture because 01:50:41.685 --> 01:50:43.025 depending on certain constraints. 01:50:44.715 --> 01:50:50.795 And that we have to have some compassion for this and work with people where 01:50:50.795 --> 01:50:52.905 they are versus where they are, right? 01:50:52.905 --> 01:50:56.345 But I do think you're absolutely right that if you're taking as a sort of a 01:50:56.695 --> 01:51:02.475 baseline, well, we would like to be as close to this Mongolian model as we can. 01:51:03.575 --> 01:51:04.255 How do we do that? 01:51:04.515 --> 01:51:07.665 Does that mean that I have to let my horses free run in the arena for 01:51:07.665 --> 01:51:12.625 a certain number of hours in the day or, or what or what, but are we 01:51:12.625 --> 01:51:13.865 at least thinking in these times? 01:51:14.585 --> 01:51:14.925 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 01:51:14.925 --> 01:51:19.875 And for me, it's not, it wasn't even, I was just curious about, because I could 01:51:19.875 --> 01:51:23.655 feel the difference and I was just curious about it and what created the difference. 01:51:23.815 --> 01:51:26.675 And then I guess, as you were talking, I was like, Oh, that's what it is. 01:51:26.745 --> 01:51:28.275 Cause for me, I totally agree. 01:51:28.275 --> 01:51:31.485 Everyone does the best with what they have, with what they 01:51:31.485 --> 01:51:32.925 know, with where they're at. 01:51:32.925 --> 01:51:33.070 Yeah. 01:51:33.330 --> 01:51:36.970 And I would love it if we could all have more generous assumptions and 01:51:37.020 --> 01:51:41.850 ask questions and be curious rather than kind of judge one another. 01:51:42.470 --> 01:51:43.040 Yeah. 01:51:43.230 --> 01:51:46.460 Rupert Isaacson: I feel that we're slowly getting there, you know, I think, 01:51:46.460 --> 01:51:47.420 Jane Faulkner: yeah, I agree. 01:51:47.500 --> 01:51:49.390 Rupert Isaacson: Organizations like yours are a part of that. 01:51:49.420 --> 01:51:54.500 And I think again, that is a, that is a, perhaps an advantage that you have 01:51:55.050 --> 01:51:56.600 from coming in from outside the horse. 01:51:57.965 --> 01:52:04.425 Culture is that you can bring a sudden lack of judgment which helps we horse 01:52:04.425 --> 01:52:08.975 people to be less judgmental because let's forget the humans that we're serving. 01:52:09.445 --> 01:52:12.295 You know, the big question is horse welfare. 01:52:12.715 --> 01:52:13.350 And. 01:52:13.580 --> 01:52:16.760 So my horses need to be happy, and they need to have well being, because 01:52:16.800 --> 01:52:20.770 how can they possibly impart happiness and well being to a human if they 01:52:20.970 --> 01:52:22.100 don't have that to give, right? 01:52:22.540 --> 01:52:25.800 So this is the big conversation, I think, of our time as horse people 01:52:25.800 --> 01:52:32.102 is, given the constraints that we have how, how do we ensure that well being? 01:52:32.102 --> 01:52:32.463 Yeah. 01:52:33.600 --> 01:52:35.610 Jane Faulkner: And I love that we are working that out. 01:52:36.100 --> 01:52:40.090 Like more and more like, and for me, clients help me see that. 01:52:40.090 --> 01:52:44.710 Like clients in the early days, were really, were right on to 01:52:44.800 --> 01:52:46.150 the horse doesn't wanna do that. 01:52:46.330 --> 01:52:46.691 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah. 01:52:46.960 --> 01:52:49.150 Jane Faulkner: And so I had to kind of think, all right, what's, 01:52:49.180 --> 01:52:51.040 how, how can I do this differently? 01:52:51.045 --> 01:52:55.120 How can I support this horse to still be in the conversation in a 01:52:55.120 --> 01:52:56.365 way that it feels comfortable to? 01:52:56.365 --> 01:52:56.525 Can 01:52:57.010 --> 01:52:57.850 Rupert Isaacson: you give us, can you give us the example 01:52:57.850 --> 01:52:58.840 that stands out in your mind? 01:52:58.840 --> 01:53:00.610 Most of that where, yeah. 01:53:00.610 --> 01:53:00.611 Yeah. 01:53:00.715 --> 01:53:01.005 Yeah. 01:53:01.925 --> 01:53:05.115 Jane Faulkner: So for me I was working with the herd of horses at 01:53:05.115 --> 01:53:08.815 the retreat that I worked in and there was one horse that was just 01:53:08.815 --> 01:53:15.245 lovely and very giving and would kind of always come forward for work. 01:53:15.845 --> 01:53:21.105 And I was quite early on in my practice, so, relied on a lot 01:53:21.105 --> 01:53:22.775 of work with the horses halted. 01:53:23.435 --> 01:53:27.235 And I remember going to this horse Jack, his name was, and going to 01:53:27.235 --> 01:53:31.095 put the halter on, and he obviously did not want the halter on. 01:53:32.405 --> 01:53:34.015 And I put it on anyway. 01:53:34.625 --> 01:53:36.605 And I felt like shit. 01:53:37.100 --> 01:53:40.430 The whole session, and I remember promising him, I'll never do that to 01:53:40.430 --> 01:53:46.100 you again and realizing it meant I was going to look, I was going to let people 01:53:46.100 --> 01:53:49.230 down because these people paid a big amount of money for these sessions. 01:53:49.650 --> 01:53:57.710 And it meant that I needed to work out a different way to, to work to give people 01:53:57.880 --> 01:54:02.570 insights and awareness into what was happening for them without making Jack do 01:54:02.570 --> 01:54:05.210 all the work on the halter or with that. 01:54:05.210 --> 01:54:05.285 Yeah. 01:54:05.675 --> 01:54:08.795 Rupert Isaacson: So what did you work out given that you have to dance 01:54:08.825 --> 01:54:15.310 between honoring what the client Is showing up and paying money to do, 01:54:15.320 --> 01:54:19.840 which is a real thing, the need for the horse as a colleague, which is a real 01:54:19.840 --> 01:54:25.030 thing and the need to recognize their horse's agency, which is a real thing. 01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:26.290 What did you do? 01:54:27.600 --> 01:54:32.760 Jane Faulkner: So for me, I learned to get really curious about 01:54:32.790 --> 01:54:36.420 everything the horses did in relation to what the person said and did. 01:54:37.310 --> 01:54:43.460 And I learned to support the person to get curious about that too. 01:54:44.150 --> 01:54:45.020 And. 01:54:45.210 --> 01:54:49.190 I started to notice like more and more that the horses did give really 01:54:49.190 --> 01:54:56.280 clear indicators of and support the person to become really aware of 01:54:56.320 --> 01:55:01.230 themselves in a way that was much more profound than if the horse was halted. 01:55:01.790 --> 01:55:07.040 So, for example, if the person was really dysregulated and really 01:55:07.470 --> 01:55:11.630 Thinking things or had a lot of emotion, generally, the horses 01:55:11.630 --> 01:55:13.300 wouldn't want to be near that person. 01:55:13.870 --> 01:55:20.640 But then as the person got in touch with their feelings and became congruent, so 01:55:20.640 --> 01:55:25.710 became authentic and maybe even spoke to me or the horse about their feelings, the 01:55:25.710 --> 01:55:28.030 horses turned in and wanted to engage. 01:55:28.695 --> 01:55:34.565 And so the person, the people realize like, because something I'll ask somebody 01:55:34.575 --> 01:55:38.955 when a horse does something like if a horse or four horses move away, I might 01:55:38.955 --> 01:55:41.095 say to that person, is that familiar? 01:55:41.545 --> 01:55:44.085 And the person will go, yeah, it feels like my family. 01:55:44.785 --> 01:55:46.715 And then it's like, what's that like? 01:55:46.725 --> 01:55:49.055 Can you tell the horses what's that like for you? 01:55:50.205 --> 01:55:54.755 And as they tell the horses, something in the person shifts and the horses 01:55:54.755 --> 01:55:57.155 respond to that state, state shift. 01:55:57.425 --> 01:56:01.075 Often it means the person needs to become more vulnerable or more real 01:56:01.275 --> 01:56:03.245 and that's what the horses respond to. 01:56:03.545 --> 01:56:07.675 And then the person can join the dogs and they, they realize like, 01:56:07.685 --> 01:56:13.285 oh, gosh, when I'm uptight and stressed, it pushes my family away. 01:56:13.545 --> 01:56:19.345 But when I own what I'm feeling and I'm honest about what's happening for 01:56:19.345 --> 01:56:21.555 me, my family want to come closer. 01:56:22.265 --> 01:56:25.345 So they kind of, that's where horses I find are amazing. 01:56:25.355 --> 01:56:30.295 They, they give a really tangible indication of where that person's at. 01:56:30.305 --> 01:56:34.535 And they give the person an opportunity to try something different and they respond. 01:56:35.015 --> 01:56:37.015 And the person feels it in their body. 01:56:38.465 --> 01:56:39.025 Rupert Isaacson: I would agree. 01:56:40.435 --> 01:56:41.555 And I would agree with that. 01:56:41.685 --> 01:56:45.435 Right across every human interaction with horses, you know, whether it's 01:56:46.325 --> 01:56:51.075 therapeutic or whether it's Work, you know, working equitation with cow work 01:56:51.075 --> 01:56:54.385 or whether it's a sport or whatever. 01:56:54.575 --> 01:56:55.065 For sure. 01:56:55.085 --> 01:56:59.655 And I think, I think everyone at the, who's serious about any of the 01:56:59.655 --> 01:57:03.585 interactions with horses to some degree comes to this realization that you 01:57:03.585 --> 01:57:07.665 have to change something in yourself often and frequently, not just once. 01:57:07.995 --> 01:57:11.015 Because you're dealing with organisms that reflect. 01:57:12.055 --> 01:57:12.695 where you are. 01:57:12.755 --> 01:57:17.625 So as you say, if, if it took me a long time, for example, when I am going to do 01:57:17.725 --> 01:57:21.985 a dressage type thing to be really okay with it, feeling where the horse is at. 01:57:21.985 --> 01:57:24.245 And sometimes they're like, no, it's not what I want. 01:57:24.295 --> 01:57:24.605 All right. 01:57:24.745 --> 01:57:25.145 You know what? 01:57:25.275 --> 01:57:25.965 No problem. 01:57:25.995 --> 01:57:27.065 Let's just go in the forest. 01:57:28.340 --> 01:57:30.590 And then frequently when we've gone in the forest, they're like, you know what, 01:57:30.590 --> 01:57:33.690 actually that dressage thing, I kind of feel like doing a little bit of that. 01:57:33.890 --> 01:57:37.450 And that's exactly how I would be, you know, I would be like, look, I want 01:57:37.450 --> 01:57:38.680 to just, you know, go chill first. 01:57:38.790 --> 01:57:41.990 And then when I've had a little bit of a run around and explore, then yeah, 01:57:41.990 --> 01:57:46.720 I'm kind of want to engage in this kind of absorbing thing, you know, but 01:57:47.150 --> 01:57:49.160 that totally reflects my personality. 01:57:49.480 --> 01:57:50.685 Why would they not? 01:57:51.835 --> 01:57:52.615 Jane Faulkner: Exactly. 01:57:52.825 --> 01:57:55.175 And it deepens the relationship, doesn't it? 01:57:55.185 --> 01:57:58.785 Like for me, it just creates a much more profound, deep 01:57:58.785 --> 01:58:01.285 relationship, but it takes humility. 01:58:01.965 --> 01:58:06.675 It takes willing to, like for me in front of clients or students 01:58:06.775 --> 01:58:11.275 being willing to go, look, I don't know what's going to happen. 01:58:11.275 --> 01:58:12.435 They're walking away. 01:58:12.645 --> 01:58:16.765 Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is the thing I think what, what people fear. 01:58:17.485 --> 01:58:22.545 very, very, for very real and good reasons is that if you know, you're, you're 01:58:22.545 --> 01:58:25.975 a horse professional or whatever and your horse doesn't want to participate, 01:58:25.975 --> 01:58:28.445 well, you know, you're letting people down and you're not delivering the 01:58:28.455 --> 01:58:29.905 service that you said you would. 01:58:30.265 --> 01:58:33.705 Or if you're not doing it professionally, but you've just been told you've 01:58:33.705 --> 01:58:34.725 got to tell the horse what to do. 01:58:34.745 --> 01:58:37.355 You've got to be boss of the horse or the horse won't respect you. 01:58:37.895 --> 01:58:41.745 And although there's truths in that, that's not the whole truth, but 01:58:41.745 --> 01:58:43.585 there are certain truths in that. 01:58:44.015 --> 01:58:45.755 What I found, and I'm sure you've found. 01:58:45.990 --> 01:58:49.490 But perhaps this might be useful for listeners is just to inform people up 01:58:49.490 --> 01:58:54.070 front, you know, so for example, if I am giving a quote unquote dressage 01:58:54.070 --> 01:58:57.050 thing in just the same way as if I'm giving a quote unquote therapy 01:58:57.050 --> 01:59:00.760 thing, I'll often say to the clients, look, it could go like this and it 01:59:00.760 --> 01:59:02.620 could go like that for these reasons. 01:59:03.560 --> 01:59:07.600 If it goes like this, then my suggestion is we go blah, blah, blah. 01:59:07.780 --> 01:59:10.640 And if it goes like that, my suggestion, and, or it might just, 01:59:10.690 --> 01:59:15.140 we might just go straight to the thing, but are you okay with that? 01:59:15.660 --> 01:59:20.680 Flexibility before we begin, and you sort of give them a chance to say to 01:59:20.680 --> 01:59:26.140 understand and then to say, well, okay, you know, or no, actually, I'm not 01:59:26.150 --> 01:59:29.030 okay with that, you know, in which case we can say, well, perhaps we're not, 01:59:29.390 --> 01:59:30.580 we're not the right fit for each other. 01:59:30.580 --> 01:59:31.510 That's all right, too. 01:59:32.030 --> 01:59:34.550 But I find with most with most people it's it's more about just 01:59:34.610 --> 01:59:37.600 giving giving the information if you give the information, give people a 01:59:37.600 --> 01:59:39.120 chance to understand I'm the same. 01:59:39.400 --> 01:59:41.690 If you give me a chance to understand I'm probably okay with it. 01:59:41.720 --> 01:59:42.360 You know what I mean? 01:59:42.460 --> 01:59:44.140 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah, definitely. 01:59:44.170 --> 01:59:44.810 I agree. 01:59:45.010 --> 01:59:46.370 Yeah, that transparency. 01:59:47.360 --> 01:59:49.350 Rupert Isaacson: So I've got a last, I've got a question for you. 01:59:49.710 --> 01:59:49.830 Jane Faulkner: I 01:59:49.830 --> 01:59:51.540 Rupert Isaacson: would like to, I would like to have you on again. 01:59:51.550 --> 01:59:52.930 There's lots of other questions I've got for you. 01:59:52.930 --> 01:59:57.170 So if you're up for it, I'd like to do a part two or even a part three with you. 01:59:57.290 --> 01:59:59.000 And I'm sure that the listeners feel the same. 01:59:59.830 --> 02:00:00.475 I, yeah. 02:00:00.955 --> 02:00:05.295 I'm thinking back to that girl, the young girl who was living in her car 02:00:06.235 --> 02:00:12.005 in Brisbane, who you saw when she was 13 years old living in her car, having 02:00:12.005 --> 02:00:13.685 to do whatever she could do to survive. 02:00:14.035 --> 02:00:18.605 If she was your client now, how would you help her? 02:00:22.465 --> 02:00:23.285 Jane Faulkner: Great question. 02:00:24.225 --> 02:00:27.700 So, I would help her 02:00:30.000 --> 02:00:33.270 just by being a, an equal human beside her. 02:00:37.140 --> 02:00:37.730 Yeah. 02:00:38.410 --> 02:00:38.770 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:00:39.810 --> 02:00:45.370 Jane Faulkner: And keeping it that simple, just by being an equal human that valued 02:00:45.380 --> 02:00:48.640 her and that saw the gold within her, 02:00:48.640 --> 02:00:49.970 Rupert Isaacson: that 02:00:50.630 --> 02:00:55.940 Jane Faulkner: didn't see what she did or, cause she would bring a lot of shame. 02:00:56.960 --> 02:00:57.790 I imagine. 02:00:57.840 --> 02:00:58.430 I'm so sure. 02:00:58.430 --> 02:00:58.460 Yeah. 02:00:58.460 --> 02:00:59.110 Yeah. 02:00:59.360 --> 02:01:06.420 Yeah, to honor that shame and to support her to see her light and 02:01:06.470 --> 02:01:08.600 to let her know that's what I see. 02:01:09.620 --> 02:01:15.590 Rupert Isaacson: To perhaps honor the courage that it takes to go into something 02:01:15.590 --> 02:01:16.850 that is going to cause that shame. 02:01:18.230 --> 02:01:19.630 That takes great courage, right? 02:01:20.410 --> 02:01:22.880 Jane Faulkner: Yeah, yeah, 100%. 02:01:24.600 --> 02:01:29.270 And more just to let her know her shame is welcome and it makes sense that 02:01:29.270 --> 02:01:33.090 it's there and that there's nothing wrong with that shame being there. 02:01:33.180 --> 02:01:34.480 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay. 02:01:34.520 --> 02:01:35.670 And that she's much 02:01:35.670 --> 02:01:36.420 Jane Faulkner: more than 02:01:36.620 --> 02:01:37.340 Rupert Isaacson: What does that mean? 02:01:37.580 --> 02:01:38.440 That's intriguing. 02:01:38.910 --> 02:01:39.210 Okay. 02:01:39.210 --> 02:01:39.720 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 02:01:40.620 --> 02:01:42.080 So, I mean, we all Okay, because normally 02:01:42.130 --> 02:01:45.040 Rupert Isaacson: we think shame is something that isn't so welcome, you know, 02:01:45.350 --> 02:01:47.040 because it has negative associations. 02:01:47.360 --> 02:01:48.380 So why is shame welcome? 02:01:48.570 --> 02:01:49.230 Tell us about that. 02:01:50.550 --> 02:01:52.890 Jane Faulkner: Because shame is trying to protect us in some way. 02:01:53.405 --> 02:01:56.735 Shame is trying to reveal something to us in some way. 02:01:56.755 --> 02:01:59.255 Shame's part of being human. 02:01:59.725 --> 02:02:04.845 And so if I reject it or push it away, I reject or push away a part of myself. 02:02:05.835 --> 02:02:08.205 And I don't want a client to do that. 02:02:08.795 --> 02:02:12.405 And, and they'll be pushing away the most vulnerable part of themselves. 02:02:13.280 --> 02:02:18.890 And I'm more one to say, Hey, I see that vulnerable part and it is so welcome here. 02:02:19.850 --> 02:02:23.460 And thank you for showing me that part of you. 02:02:23.860 --> 02:02:26.940 And can you let that part of, you know, I'm so grateful it's 02:02:26.940 --> 02:02:29.460 shown up that takes courage. 02:02:30.280 --> 02:02:35.930 So I never, ever want anyone to reject their shame, but that's healing for me 02:02:36.050 --> 02:02:40.180 is learning to pick your shame up and hold it and say, Hey, I've got you. 02:02:41.220 --> 02:02:41.480 Yeah. 02:02:41.480 --> 02:02:43.060 And accept it, bring it close. 02:02:44.055 --> 02:02:46.575 We learned to push it away and reject it 02:02:48.115 --> 02:02:51.425 Rupert Isaacson: like, like in a child healing effectively. 02:02:51.595 --> 02:02:52.145 Yes. 02:02:52.215 --> 02:02:52.565 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 02:02:54.145 --> 02:02:55.065 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 02:02:55.095 --> 02:02:55.445 Okay. 02:02:55.465 --> 02:02:57.465 I think we need another conversation about that 02:02:59.845 --> 02:03:00.805 if you're up for later. 02:03:01.515 --> 02:03:01.845 Jane Faulkner: Yeah. 02:03:01.845 --> 02:03:02.545 I'd love to. 02:03:02.865 --> 02:03:03.415 Yeah. 02:03:03.885 --> 02:03:05.675 Rupert Isaacson: I think everyone, everyone, everyone. 02:03:06.545 --> 02:03:07.065 And 02:03:07.065 --> 02:03:07.835 it, it, 02:03:10.505 --> 02:03:15.895 I think whether you're, whether you're the person suffering from it, which is 02:03:15.895 --> 02:03:20.145 everyone on the planet, or whether you're the first to help somebody with it. 02:03:21.985 --> 02:03:26.115 I thought is really from the conversation is, well, what's it, what are the 02:03:26.135 --> 02:03:31.295 positive sides of it and why might it be welcome and what might be doing 02:03:31.295 --> 02:03:36.315 for you that's helping you and how is it, how is it, how is it helping 02:03:36.315 --> 02:03:39.685 you to acquire wisdom and how is it helping you to acquire compassion. 02:03:40.325 --> 02:03:43.505 And how has it helped, you know, looking through that the lens of the 02:03:43.505 --> 02:03:47.665 heart as if, you know, Kansas Caridine and her work with HeartMath Institute, 02:03:47.665 --> 02:03:52.675 but she's, she would say, you know, I feel terrible speaking for Caridine. 02:03:52.675 --> 02:03:53.245 Sorry, Kansas. 02:03:53.555 --> 02:03:55.865 But, you know, she, she might say, she might say, looking 02:03:55.865 --> 02:03:56.925 through the lens of the heart. 02:03:58.295 --> 02:04:04.155 And one of the, the, you know, when she said that to me, it hit home immediately. 02:04:04.740 --> 02:04:07.570 That is exactly what we are trained to not to do. 02:04:08.450 --> 02:04:10.640 Jane Faulkner: Yes, and it's what we all need. 02:04:10.980 --> 02:04:14.750 Yes, to see one another through the lens of the heart. 02:04:14.760 --> 02:04:17.320 That's such a beautiful saying, the lens of the heart. 02:04:18.590 --> 02:04:20.880 Rupert Isaacson: Because it renders us uncontrollable and we're not 02:04:20.880 --> 02:04:23.010 going to go off and fight and die on foreign battlefields if we're 02:04:23.010 --> 02:04:24.060 looking through the lens of the heart. 02:04:24.660 --> 02:04:25.900 Jane Faulkner: It's so true. 02:04:26.280 --> 02:04:28.760 And we want to support each other and build one another up. 02:04:28.760 --> 02:04:29.020 So governments and 02:04:29.020 --> 02:04:29.960 Rupert Isaacson: churches don't have much. 02:04:31.690 --> 02:04:32.000 Jane Faulkner: They don't 02:04:32.040 --> 02:04:34.300 Rupert Isaacson: have much incentive to help us to see that way. 02:04:35.200 --> 02:04:35.780 Jane Faulkner: So true. 02:04:36.370 --> 02:04:37.790 And yet we crave it, eh? 02:04:40.660 --> 02:04:42.060 Rupert Isaacson: Like, like oxygen. 02:04:42.850 --> 02:04:43.150 Jane Faulkner: Mm. 02:04:43.700 --> 02:04:44.090 Yeah. 02:04:45.840 --> 02:04:46.440 Rupert Isaacson: Like love. 02:04:49.770 --> 02:04:51.600 Whoa, Jane Faulkner, thank you. 02:04:52.670 --> 02:04:53.180 Jane Faulkner: Thank you. 02:04:53.190 --> 02:04:53.480 Brilliant. 02:04:53.480 --> 02:04:54.490 Thanks so much. 02:04:54.550 --> 02:04:54.930 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:04:54.930 --> 02:04:57.870 So, so with the knowledge that we're going to explore some more things 02:04:58.580 --> 02:05:03.590 for those, I think we should sign off and let people digest this so far. 02:05:04.150 --> 02:05:05.120 What are the resources? 02:05:05.130 --> 02:05:08.510 Just give us the web stuff, books, whatever, the way people can find you, 02:05:08.520 --> 02:05:11.900 YouTube, the lot, just how do we, how do they find their way to you and your stuff? 02:05:12.610 --> 02:05:12.940 Jane Faulkner: Sure. 02:05:13.240 --> 02:05:16.780 Website is equine assisted therapy, australia. 02:05:17.040 --> 02:05:17.310 com. 02:05:17.320 --> 02:05:21.230 au and Facebook is the same equine assisted therapy, 02:05:21.230 --> 02:05:23.320 Australia and same as Instagram. 02:05:23.630 --> 02:05:24.990 And that's, that's about it. 02:05:26.260 --> 02:05:26.910 No books yet. 02:05:26.910 --> 02:05:27.700 But the website 02:05:27.720 --> 02:05:29.077 Rupert Isaacson: is com. 02:05:29.077 --> 02:05:31.390 au chaps. 02:05:31.390 --> 02:05:35.820 Those of us outside of Australia, remember it's an AU on the end after the com. 02:05:36.610 --> 02:05:37.020 Jane Faulkner: Yes. 02:05:37.070 --> 02:05:37.310 Thank you. 02:05:37.310 --> 02:05:37.410 But 02:05:37.410 --> 02:05:40.160 Rupert Isaacson: I presume if they type equine assisted Australia into 02:05:40.160 --> 02:05:41.985 Google, it'll still come up to you. 02:05:42.645 --> 02:05:43.825 Jane Faulkner: I, hopefully. 02:05:44.925 --> 02:05:45.025 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:05:45.025 --> 02:05:45.445 Okay. 02:05:45.495 --> 02:05:45.875 Jane Faulkner: Awesome. 02:05:46.585 --> 02:05:47.695 Thank you so much, Rupert. 02:05:47.995 --> 02:05:49.525 I've loved this conversation. 02:05:49.535 --> 02:05:49.645 Thank 02:05:49.645 --> 02:05:50.125 Rupert Isaacson: you. 02:05:51.115 --> 02:05:51.745 Likewise. 02:05:51.865 --> 02:05:52.305 Likewise. 02:05:52.305 --> 02:05:52.915 I learned a lot. 02:05:53.305 --> 02:05:54.825 So thank you for mentoring me. 02:05:55.455 --> 02:05:57.485 And I look forward to the next one. 02:05:58.835 --> 02:05:59.275 Jane Faulkner: Awesome. 02:05:59.455 --> 02:05:59.915 Thanks, Rupert.. 02:05:59.993 --> 02:06:01.103 Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us. 02:06:01.133 --> 02:06:02.963 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:06:03.202 --> 02:06:08.242 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:06:08.242 --> 02:06:13.432 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:06:14.139 --> 02:06:18.788 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:06:18.788 --> 02:06:20.798 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:06:21.125 --> 02:06:24.875 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:06:24.875 --> 02:06:28.115 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:06:28.413 --> 02:06:32.463 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:06:32.463 --> 02:06:34.383 bring you and your horse joy. 02:06:34.920 --> 02:06:39.480 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:06:39.810 --> 02:06:40.740 See you on the next show. 02:06:41.153 --> 02:06:43.843 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.