Taking the Lead | Not Enough Time

On this episode we talk with Stephanie Enyart the Chief Public Policy and Research Officer at the American Foundation for the Blind.

What is Taking the Lead ?

Leader Dogs for the Blind empowers people who are blind or visually impaired with the tools for safe and independent daily travel. Our goal is to educate, advocate, and share real life experiences of those with blindness. Come learn, laugh, and grow with us.

Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hoener with my co-host Leslie Hoskins. And Timothy isn't here with us today 'cause he's actually traveling to speak on behalf of Leader Dog.
Leslie: That's the only reason. It's okay. Yeah. But he is not here with us.
Right.
Christina: I know. He does so much for us. He is always traveling to different Lions clubs and different events. To help spread
Leslie: the word. Yeah, I think it's crazy. The only time I think he's ever missed a recording is because he is on a flight Yeah. Somewhere. And it's usually on behalf of Leader Dogs. So we're very thankful.
So Timothy, when you hear this, we miss you. Yes. It's not the same without you, but lots of traveling. As always. I think we always get to this time of year and we're talking about all the things and places we're going. I know I'm heading out here soon, uh, to the San Diego for the National Council, state Agencies for the blinds.
And then I will be heading to the American Foundation for the Blind. Oh, are you? [00:01:00] Um, conference as well. So I'm very excited. Yes. Looking forward to those back to back weeks, which is tough. But What city is that in? Arlington, Virginia.
Christina: Oh, wow. So one side of the country to the other coming opposite side with my daughter's
Leslie: tier competition in the middle.
So it's gonna be a busy, a busy time.
Christina: Oh, that's so exciting though. Your, her first one, right? Yes.
Leslie: Yeah. Yes. I am very excited and very proud of her. She's been working very hard. Yes, so, but lots of good things happening. Are you going anywhere? Whatcha do you going on? No. You're just a married woman now and living life?
Yes. Okay, fantastic. We'll go ahead and get started 'cause we missed Timothy, but we'll dive in and, and highlight our wonderful guests that we've got here to talk about the real impact in the field of research and disability rights.
Christina: Yes. Stephanie enr is the Chief Public Policy and Research Officer at the American Foundation for the Blind, where she leads efforts to drive systematic change through advocacy and data-driven research.
With over 20 years of experience, [00:02:00] including roles in federal and state government, Stephanie has championed accessibility in technology, transportation, and beyond. She was appointed to the US Access Board by President Biden in 2023 and is deeply committed to creating a more inclusive world. Stephanie is also blind and brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work.
Wow. What a bio.
Leslie: Hi, Stephanie. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Stephanie: Hi. Thank you for having me.
Leslie: I mean, that is quite the impressive bio. Yes. You have done so many amazing things already. Is there anything else that we should know about you as we dive into this conversation?
Stephanie: I don't know. I, I mean, I also have, um, four girls in my life.
Oh, wow. So my husband and I are a Brady Bunch. He brought two to the marriage. Too. So I live with a lot of girls. Lots of lots of hair. Yeah. Lucky you
Christina: girl, mom, for sure. Right.
Leslie: That's fantastic. So how did you become involved in [00:03:00] disability rights advocacy?
Stephanie: Well, I mean, I do, I do have a visual disability myself, and I was very passionate about, you know, having.
You know, a disability that ultimately I was, I was here to make some sort of a shift around the issues, you know, because I wasn't born, um, with a disability. So I had perfect vision until I was a teenager. And then I lost my vision over the course of about three months. Oh my gosh. And you know, that was when I was in kind of.
My high school time period and, and, and then I went off to college and I thought that I really wanted to go and be a professor and, and, and teach disability rights, which was just a brand new field at that time. There hadn't been kind of a disability studies emergence until that era, and when I was getting ready to apply for my PhD programs, I realized that because of the way that some of.
The recent politics that happened there were these high school [00:04:00] exit exams, and I wouldn't have even been able to pass the high school exit exam with the accommodations that I would need with my visual disability. And then I just began pondering, wait a minute, this could really trip up a lot of students.
And I started thinking a lot more about systems and systems change and the need to be able to kind of. Be at the drawing table for how to draw and redraw these kinds of rules and systems that will really have much broader impact. And so I wanted to still do something in disability rights, but I wanted to be more involved in the kind of intricacies of how policies or how law is applied to create sweeping changes to the disability community.
So.
Leslie: That's inspirational. Yeah, I mean, really to think about, right? Like not only your impact, but the broader picture of, of if this is happening to you, who else is it happening to, and what needs to change so that it's, you know, equal access for everybody. That's incredible. What also inspired you to pursue both law and [00:05:00] policy work as part of your advocacy efforts?
Stephanie: Well, I, you know, anyone that goes to law school kind of gets sucked into the whole legal space, you know, and, and they're basically convinced that you've got to be a litigator in order to make a difference. Mm-hmm. And so I spent a bit of time, actually at the very beginning of my career, working at a really wonderful high impact disability rights practice called Disability Rights.
And, um, they ended up even representing me. 'cause I was, I was suing the national conference of bar examiners to get accommodations to use my assistive technology on the, the multiple choice portion of the bar exam.
Christina: Oh my gosh.
Stephanie: And, and being a plaintiff in what ended up being a, a really. Um, impactful case 'cause I did end up winning.
Um, and it meant that that changed an aspect of the law for, for everybody. After that, the, the kind of human toll that that took on me, yeah. And being involved and I got to work on my litigation, it really clarified for me, you [00:06:00] know, kind of what it would take to be a litigator. And that ultimately just from a personality perspective and an energy perspective, I still wanted to do that kind of.
Big picture, systemic work related to, to the legal space. But I didn't wanna be the litigator bringing those cases and, and being in those trenches. I wanted to be at the table where things were created. Mm-hmm.
Leslie: You know, where
Stephanie: you wrote the Regi, the legislation, or the regulations or where, um, you were looking at crafting policies that would have sweeping changes from kind of an administrative perspective.
So. I began getting greater clarity that I still wanted to do that systems work. But you know, that litigation, it, it's a very, it's an essential tool for our advocacy space, but it wasn't the tool that I wanted to spend my life. You know, using. Yeah. And so I, I, I then moved to DC and I spent a lot of time, um, you know, [00:07:00] kind of building my career, um, working inside the federal government, um, as a point person on disability.
Um, and then working a lot on legislation and regulation and, and the way that things kind of are administered in a sweeping way related to the disability space. So,
Christina: yeah, Stephanie, that's incredible. The fact that you actually had to go through a lawsuit yourself and I can't even imagine the how long that took or the, the emotional impact.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how you were able to do that? 'cause I'm sure there's a lot of people who are like, where do I even start? If they have a problem that they want to, you know, take action on.
Stephanie: It's true. I mean, I think that one of the key ingredients for surviving a place where you need to use lawyers to advocate is, is to have really good and really experienced lawyers.
Um, and I had really the best [00:08:00] team in the country. My, my team was comprised from disability rights advocates, which is really, that's all they do is, is. Impact litigation in the disability space. So they're just really seasoned professionals, but also the NFB represented me. And so they brought in, um, their main council, Scott Lebar, who is no longer with us, um, but um, brown Goldstein and Levy, who they use for a lot of their work.
And so to have. Lawyers that had such expertise in, in the law part of it, it takes a lot of the pressure off because they've kind of been everywhere. And if you're, if you're pushing forward in law, that has never really been articulated. Like I, I was, I was, I was trying to apply an aspect of the Americans with Disabilities Act that had never been applied before related to testing.
And so it. Have great counsel, but also you have to have a way to take care of yourself. Um, and a part of my lawsuit was about me being an activist and an advocate, and that, [00:09:00] you know, the entire standardized testing industry essentially was claiming that I was out there pushing something legally that I didn't even need.
And so it was a lot of really personal attacks.
Leslie: Yeah.
Stephanie: And so they had to, they had to kind of silence me from my activism role, which I love so much. And I couldn't be in a social media space. I, I actually wasn't even supposed to be socializing with friends or colleagues who were in the legal environment, which was hard right after law school.
Leslie: Yeah.
Stephanie: So I, I really had to find kind of another way to be able to cope. And so I think whatever that looks like for people, whether it's really investing in something else, um, for your own self-care, you know, cooking or exercise or other parts of your community that you are also still connected to, I, I had to really dial into all of that to be able to make sure that I could take care of myself while I had my head down and I was pushing forward on what I needed.
Leslie: That sounds like an incredibly challenging time, but also [00:10:00] to come out with a, when, so motivating and exciting. I'm just curious, how long of a time span was that? Because I don't, I mean, legal things take forever, right? Like that's a long time to be silenced, to not be able to reach out to your peer group.
Stephanie: It was two years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so, and in that window I also, I couldn't work my normal job, um, which for me was a really big deal too, because. I, I love the work that I do. Yeah. So I had to kind of stay in this cycle of studying for, and then trying to take various law, law school, I mean, um, bar exams.
Yeah. And, and those bar exams are very, they're all consuming when you're studying for the bar, you've gotta basically like, kind of get all of this content all in the right space, kind of like an athlete does. Then tapering down to your race. And then, you know, I was taking the California bar exam, which was, you know, the better part of a week long.
And most of the bar exams, all, all of the bar exams, I took the bar [00:11:00] exam three times. None of them were accessible.
Christina: Oh my goodness.
Stephanie: None of, none of the opportunities that I actually had, you know, turned into an accessible exam. And it's mostly because they, they didn't know how to get the technology right at the time.
Yeah,
Leslie: yeah.
Stephanie: And they were in charge. So, so I think self care, self care is really the way to, to do and to push forward and. Whatever it is that's really up, up in front of you.
Leslie: And what year was this?
Stephanie: That, so let's see this. Oh goodness. I didn't even know we talked about this. I know, I know. Sorry. I think, no, I think, I think it was like around like, let's see, I graduated in two.
Oh, so 2009 to 2011. I mean, so
Leslie: not even that long ago. That's what's crazy to me. Yeah. When you're having these conversations and talking about this like this, this was not that long ago that these tests were not. Accessible. I mean, that's, that's insane. So to have such a strong impact and impact so many other people's lives going [00:12:00] forward in that area, that's, that's fantastic.
And thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your story there. Yeah. I'd like to, to talk a little bit more now, um, you're at the American Foundation of the Blind and you're leading both public policy and research. What are some of those current research priorities that you're most passionate about now after you've already had this huge piece of history?
Stephanie: Well, I mean, I, I think that looking at the moment that we're in, in terms of emerging technologies and looking at, you know, where we are as a community, a blind community, uh, a disability community, this is one of the most unique times I feel like we could have, um. You know, potentially ever, we have such a rapid transformation in places like AI and autonomous vehicles and, um, you know, at a FB we are doing, uh, a study that it, it does really zero in on the lived experiences people with all kinds of disabilities have using.[00:13:00]
AI and a variety of different facets of life, but it also has a non-disabled control group because being able to compare and contrast the experiences disabled people have with people without disabilities is really the only way to zero in and see. Where things are disability specific. And so at this moment, we're literally collecting data and we will through the end of September, um, from basically the entire American population.
Yeah. Um, any, any adults out there that are willing to take our study to help? You know, kind of document the ways that you are and are not embracing ai. So you could be a very light user and still participate in this study. You could have no disability, you could be deaf, and you can take it in sign language if you'd like.
So, um. You know, we're looking at these issues because one of the things that a FB does that I so appreciate is we push forward in the traditional policy channels, you know, in terms of Capitol Hill [00:14:00] and the executive agencies, um, the White House, all of these spaces with the, the research evidence that we have.
But we also talk to a lot of stakeholders like the innovators themselves, the tech companies themselves. We do tons of meetings with these companies where we're able to help educate and illuminate design opportunities, other ways of approaching, um, the way that they're designing things that will ultimately result in greater accessibility.
Um, and so these are the kinds of problems that I love dabbling in because it's, it's about the creation space. Um, and we have so many rich opportunities ahead of us.
Christina: Yeah. And Stephanie, as you're doing this research with ai, do you see any challenges, because AI is constantly coming out with newer and newer versions throughout this, is there any, uh, challenges that you guys are seeing while collecting the research on this?
Stephanie: I mean, I think it's hard to say because we, we [00:15:00] can't analyze the data until after our data collection is closed. We did do a prior study, um, earlier this year we released a study and we'd done an expert consensus study for that one where experts were anonymously sharing their thoughts on the future of AI and the disability community and kind of.
Predicting the future, essentially, um, because they are so steeped in either the innovation space or the academic, um, technology space or policy space on tech. And some of the findings there were really about the interplay between having humans and what, what's the role of humans when technology can do.
So many new and different things than it could do even a couple of years ago. And the most clear finding that we found in terms of where the experts were most aligned across so many disciplines was that having a human in the loop was going to be essential. We couldn't [00:16:00] just kind of outsource everything to technology and let it run.
And so that. You know, in looking at like that job application process, so much of it has AI touching it. Whether we're talking about people using AI as they prepare their job applications, whether we're talking about systems that are reviewing those applications that are driven by ai, whether we're talking about other aspects of kind of the human resources like Lifecycle, all of the AI that's being used there, experts were very clear.
We must. Zero in to having a human very involved in that process for it to turn out right, because AI was not ready to be able to manage that. And that finding really transposes itself to so many other things too, that the moment that we're in in technology, it's all about that human and that kind of bot interaction.
What is the human's role and what is technology's [00:17:00] role? And I think that that greater question of where's the line between humans and technology and who can do what is a question that will take itself into so many different domains. And it will be an exciting and a liberating one for people with disabilities.
But it will also be complex and that's something that I'm really excited about.
Leslie: Yeah. I think it's good to hear though humans are needed, right? Yes. Like, I mean, yes, I think that's a great finding and hopefully everybody's has sighing a deep breath of, of relief here listening to that because that is what you hear, right?
And you get all that fear and terrifying of AI is gonna take over and all these things, and AI is doing amazing things, but to hear research is still showing. You've gotta have a human involved. Right. AI can't get it right every step of the way. Um, humans are still needed, humans are still contributing.
Yes. Um, and an important piece Yes.
Christina: Of this. That's good to hear, for sure. Yeah. And so you have that project going on right now. When does it That's right. Is there an end date on that?
Stephanie: So we'll have an actual [00:18:00] report come out, um, in early 2026, but we'll be collecting data so people can participate. Like I said.
All adults, um, who are willing to take the study can, can do so between now and the close of September. Um, and so it's not about, you know, just people with disabilities. We need a lot of non-disabled people. Yeah. Um, to also lean in and, and share their experiences and, and then we have to analyze it. We will have a lot of data to analyze.
Leslie: technology [00:19:00] and transportation are also major themes in the work that you do. What are some of the biggest opportunities and really barriers that you're seeing in those spaces for individuals who are blind or low vision?
Stephanie: I think that some of the greatest opportunities will, will center around the advent of completely self-driving cars. So when they're absolutely fully autonomous and deployed. Um, and I'm thinking about a lot of individuals who are guide dog users or, um, you know, using. Some sort of service animal mm-hmm.
Because of the denials that people are often facing. Um, taking a human completely out of that, um, is a very liberating thing. Um, but we, we know from research that transportation is the biggest barrier to obtaining and maintaining employment. And so I feel like if, if we're kind of level setting with, with fully autonomous vehicles, we're.
We're gonna position ourselves to such, you know, different opportunities ahead. [00:20:00] So that's one piece. I, I do feel like there is a lot with AI and other technologies, um, not only in terms of productivity, but how AI will be interfacing with the assistive technologies that people are relying on, whether it's, um.
Through cited guide work, whether it's productivity and productivity related tools, um, or even like screen reading software and other things, um, that are gonna be enhanced with ai, um, or even just like braille transcription. Mm-hmm. And, and, and how quickly and easily that will, will be a factor. So many aspects of kind of the disability experience.
Could have wonderful leaps and bounds through ai. And so I'm, I'm just, I'm very, very excited for that. And at the same time, I realize that one of the big barriers that we always, you know, kind of push up against is where [00:21:00] accessibility pops its head and, and, and where the kind of the, the equity and the access issues are for people.
And so, you know, having. You know, good advocacy. Um, pushing and keeping that as part of the dialogue is, is something that, you know, the broader disability community will have to be united around.
Christina: And so, I know Leslie drove one of those, or not drove. She was a passenger in one of those self-driving cars.
Stephanie, have you been in one of those yourself? 'cause I hearing her Leslie's experience was so interesting to me.
Stephanie: Well, it's interesting. I do get an opportunity to go to the San Francisco Bay area in just a couple of weeks and I'll be meeting with tech companies while I'm there. A big surprise. That's so cool.
And going in when there, and then one of the, um, one of the companies that. Manages the space is also rolling them out in the DC area, um, in 2026. So I, I will have much more opportunities in just a matter of weeks and months. Yes. But [00:22:00] no, I haven't.
Leslie: Yeah, it was, honestly, it was really cool. We went in a Waymo when we were in, uh, Phoenix for a conference and.
It was really nice. So talking about like barriers and access barriers and, uh, people who are traveling with service, animals being, you know, restricted or, uh, turned away for services and things like that, which is happening all the time, and really playing a factor into some people's decision whether or not to.
To travel with a guide dog. But like you said, a real perk with the driverless vehicle was we just put the dog in and there were no questions. Right? It was very easy, it was very accessible. I did think they had some really cool accessibility features as far as like you could make the car make a noise so you could locate it a little bit easier, and the app was really accessible and it was just great to see.
That, all of those things, right, they, they're beneficial for everybody. It's not even like, it's just specifically for people who are blind or low vision. Everybody can benefit from those types of resources and it's just, it's [00:23:00] fantastic to see. So I too am very excited about that and I can't wait.
Hopefully we can, uh, share stories after you get the experience of driving or riding in one, because it was certainly unique. Um, but I would like to switch gears just a little bit because as obviously we're members of Leader Dogs for the Blind team members here, and a lot of our audience is, uh, clients or somebody affiliated with Leader Dogs for the Blind.
But how can organizations like Leader Dog really support this policy change and these critical areas?
Stephanie: I think that it's, it's, um, important to be in community and kind of in some broader coalitions around things that will be emerging in, in the tech space and, and in the transportation space and kind of just.
In our broader trends. And so that could also be, um, politically as well, because there's a lot going on in, in dc It's not a place that's, um, full of dull news or anything either. Um, so I think that ultimately organizations and individuals [00:24:00] should find some. Some good sources of information in the disability space and to try to stay as current as possible.
There's often a lot of sign-on opportunities for organizations to, you know, lend their name and, and back some aspect of the advocacy. Um, but I think that it's, it's also important, um, to just stay kind of engaged because certain organizations do do certain things like a FB does do a lot of research and our research basically.
Is what we take around to do our advocacy based on, um, we're not a consumer organization. Um, we actually work with many, many consumer organizations to try to synthesize a, a more holistic view of the broader community. And so engaging in our research is also another way. To be engaged and, and reading it as well, um, is something that can kind of enlighten you in the directions [00:25:00] that we may be taking it in.
So, I, I would say being in, in a coalition, um, an advocacy coalition and, and then also, you know, engaging in research and engaging in other org, you know, with other organizations that are advocating on the issues that you're most interested in, um, and, and supporting their efforts.
Leslie: Absolutely. And I know we often refer to the research that A FBA has completed when we're having conversations and we're talking about our strategic plan and all of those different things.
It's also really helpful when we're trying to educate, you know, our constituents, our board members, our our volunteers, our donors, so they can really understand the need behind a lot of the things that we're doing or trying to do. Um, it's helped to have, it's helpful to have that research. Um, and so we are so appreciative.
To you and all of the work that a FB is doing?
Christina: Truly Yes. And we have to end with this question. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in the disability policy world overnight, what would it be?
Stephanie: I think that I would actually, I would give us some more [00:26:00] time. To spend communicating with each other.
Um, not that we don't communicate with each other, but I think that in order to kind of get people aligned and formed around, whether it's a particular campaign that needs to take place or, um, work, I think that we actually just, we don't have enough time because it's a nonprofit landscape, right? So everyone is working on kind of a, a thin mission moment.
And, and going out there to, to wave the flag, whatever that looks like for that organization. But in policy, and especially at a really big systemic level, you have to have hundreds of organizations working together and in unison, and it takes time to be able to get people to coalesce and to understand and to get on board and agree.
Um, to some certain baseline things and the time it takes to do that hard work of getting consensus and agreement and, you know, kind of that one voice is often not enough [00:27:00] time for the organizations to be able to keep doing everything else. So it's necessary to work together and we've seen huge successes as a community when we have.
And, um, you know. Giving us more time. That would be great. So more time in the day.
Leslie: Yeah. I mean, I just, I'm still blown away that the, the tests and stuff were just not that long ago that you had to go through and experience that and, and time. Right. You need more time to be able to put all of these things together and all work together to really make a difference.
So that's incredible. Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your expertise and all of the efforts that you are doing, uh, along with a FB. We greatly appreciate it.
Stephanie: Absolutely. Been a pleasure
Leslie: and thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Leslie Hassans with Host Christina Kepner, and we're missing of course, Timothy today.
But we hope you enjoyed learning about Stephanie and the critical work she is doing. Please join us next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Christina: And if you'd like to learn more about [00:28:00] applying to our free services at Leader Dog. If you can head to leader dog.org or call us at [phone].
Don't forget you can reach us at taking the [e-mail] with any questions or ideas. If you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast Stream.