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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
Welcome back to the Effective Ministry
Podcast, the podcast that helps you
have an effective youth and children's
ministry in your local church.
My name is Al James.
I'm a youth ministry and high school
SRE advisor in Sydney with Youth Works.
Next time on the podcast, we're
gonna be diving into a topic that
we'll return to from time to time,
and that is Ministry in Schools.
Public schools, private schools,
independent schools, all the
different types of schools.
And we're gonna be hearing from
Katie Stringer on what does good SRE
look like in public high schools?
SRE means special religious education.
It's an opportunity that we have in
New South Wales in Australia . Where
people from churches can go into
public high schools and present
biblical teaching to students whose
parents have chosen for them to
participate in that particular program.
And so we're gonna talk about what
does it look like to do that really
well in public high schools This
week on the podcast , we are gonna
be hearing from Polly Butterworth.
She's written a book called The Mythical
Life of the Good Christian Girl.
And I loved having this conversation
with Polly thinking, , what it's like
for young women to be Christians in the
world that they're growing up in, the
world that they're living in are really,
really helpful to, think about ministry
with girls, but actually really helpful
for ministry with young people in general.
And you can buy Polly's book,
the Mythical Life of the Good
Christian Girl in Australia by
going to YouthWorks media.net.
Or in the uk you can go
to YouthWorks media.co.uk.
, Available in those places and
in other bookstores as well.
. It was a fantastic
conversation with Polly.
Let's jump in.
. al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Hey, Polly, how
are you?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Hey, good things.
Good to be here.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah, yeah.
Hey, um, I, we're gonna get straight
into it, but I'm keen to just get a
little bit of a, a backstory about you.
Who are you, what do you do?
What, what does your life look like?
All those sorts
of things.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Sure.
Um, well, I am a high school
chaplain throughout the week.
I work at a girls school
on the North Shore.
I've been there for about
six and a half years.
I'm married to James.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
decent stint.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
yeah, it is, it is.
It's gone super quick.
I've seen, you know, a full group of
girls go from seven to 12, which is
always really weird to see them grow up.
Um, my husband's a maths teacher, um, and
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
school, different school.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
he's at, he's at Arden and um,
he is also directs the, um,
student wellbeing there as well.
Um, and yeah, we live in the
northern suburbs of Sydney.
We have a cat and a dog.
Um, I like to describe
myself as a creative.
I love literally anything creative.
I will bake and sew and make music, and
take photographs and collect hobbies.
Um, yeah, so that's, that's
kind of me in a nutshell.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: I, I
would generally not describe myself as a
baker, but I did bake a hummingbird cake
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Ooh,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: birthday
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
fancy.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Yeah, my, my daughter's helped me.
It was great.
Um, but yeah, that's
sort of the extent of my
baking recently.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
sounds great.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Um, yeah.
Hey, your, your book the Mythical
Life of the Good Christian Girl.
Um, there's been a fair
bit of buzz around it.
Um, people really, I think
just excited to have a book.
About, um, about what it is to be, or
what it's like to be a young Christian
woman,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: or
someone that's, that's thinking
about being a young Christian woman.
And the title is interesting,
you know, the mythical life
of the good Christian girl.
What is a good Christian girl?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I think it's, um, it's the, the kind
of girl that grows up, um, usually
within the church or, or becomes a
Christian, uh, earlier on in their life.
And, um, they just have.
This kind of air of, you know, goodness,
they're probably the girls who are
looking after the kids at Sunday school.
They're, um, you know,
interested in, in serving.
They're, um, you know, the people
that you'd wanna, you know, get to
look after your cat if you're away.
Those kinds of girls.
And, um, there's often, uh, internal
and external kind of pressure.
On the good Christian girl to
be good a lot of the time, and
often the good Christian girl
actually really likes being good.
Um, so someone who, you know, like
likes getting, um, praise for, for
being good and doing good things
and um, kind of wants to keep
on the, the straight and narrow.
Um, and often there's this
kind of, um, pressure that's
interlinked with their faith and so.
The difficulty for the good Christian girl
is they're ticking off all the things.
They're doing all the right
things, and then sometimes,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: picture
by the sound of things of what it
is to be a good Christian girl.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: is
the life of the Christian, the good
Christian girl.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
yeah, yeah.
Um,, They're doing all the right
things and they're seen to do
all the right things, and so
there can be this tension, right?
Because obviously we're not all perfect
all the time, and so there can be a
real crisis of identity and even crisis
of faith when they're not living up to
this expectation that either they have
of themselves or society has of them.
Maybe their parents, maybe their church.
And they kind of inevitably,
you know, slip up and now it's,
it's kind of what do I do?
Where do I go?
Um, am I still a Christian?
You know, all of these, these questions
come in because, um, there's a, there's a
lot of comparison as well with, well, I'm
amongst all of these good Christian girls
and maybe I'm different, some imposter
syndrome, maybe I shouldn't be here.
Um, yeah, these are the kind of worries
that I hear of good Christian girls.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
That's interesting.
So you, you said that you hear these
kind of worries of good Christian girls.
Where are you hearing these, these
worries?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
So, um, I minister to a lot of
good Christian girls, um, through
chaplaincy and, um, you know, through
church, youth group, things like that.
Um, I'll have conversations with
girls where, you know, they're these
good Christian girls who, you know,
I learn from and they're so wise
and all these things, and they'll
say things like, I don't think I'm
praying right, or I don't think.
I don't think I should be here.
Like, there'll be girls who
are leaders and they, they
say I shouldn't be a leader.
And I'll say, why?
And they'll say, because
someone asked me a question, I
didn't know how to answer it.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
holding themselves to really high
standards and completely, you
know, not knowing what to do when
they can't reach those standards.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah, and
it, it sounds like it's a mix of pressure
that they're putting on themselves
potentially, or sometimes pressure
that other people are putting on them,
whether it's kind of stated pressure or
if it's just kind of, you know, implied
pressure,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and to be honest, there's a, there
can be a real self-righteousness about
it because, um, when they do, which most
of the time they do, you know, succeed
in these, these, um, ideals, um, they
can be like, great, I'm good, you know?
Um.
In, in our society, you wanna know
if you are doing the right thing, if
you're good at something, you know?
And so, especially for, for
teenagers, you know, how do you
know if you're good at maths?
Well, you get a good mark.
How do you know if you're good at sport?
Well, you win the game.
How do you know if
you're a good Christian?
Well, you do these things.
And so, um, they, it's.
It's, um, relieving and comforting to be
able to say, okay, I'm, I'm good at this.
This is something that I
can be good at as well.
Um, and so yeah, even though the
cognitively, they know that they're
saved by grace, there can be a real
self-righteousness of, I did it.
I did the thing, I got the accolades,
I got the praise, I got to stand
up at church and do the thing.
And people said that, that was great.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
on the flip side, when I don't do
that, there's a real self pity because.
Now I'm not doing the things I'm supposed
to do, and, and now I'm, I'm, you
know, sinful and I should be ashamed.
And, and so there's this
real self-focus about it.
Um,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: presumably
can look like self pity or self-hatred
or self-loathing kind of thing.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
totally.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, now, like I, I, I don't, this
is probably not fair to assume, but,
um, but you know, you've written
this book, um, you presumably have
some experience in this world.
Like is there some kind of auto
autobiographical kind of to
this?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
would,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: your
story kind of inform the writing of this
book?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I would say yes and no.
Um, yes in that I, I probably would
describe myself as a good Christian
girl growing up and, and still
would, um, you know, have that
as a label That crosses my mind.
Um, because, you know, I was
totally on the straight and narrow.
I've never had a rebellious phase.
I, you know, like.
Have had a pretty, pretty quote unquote,
boring life, um, which I've loved.
Um, I think the part, and so, so all of
the things that I talk about are things
that I've come across or that I've, I've
thought about or that I've dealt with
personally, but I would say probably to a
smaller extent, um, than a lot of people.
And I think part of that is
that as I was growing up, I was
shielded a little bit from that.
I was, I was.
Um, shielded from two high expectations
and there was a lot of grace given to me.
There was a lot of, um, you know, focus
on things like rest and, and saying
no to things and, um, you know, having
good balance and, um, yeah, just really
making sure that my self-identity
wasn't bound up in my achievement.
So I'm really thankful to my
parents and, and the church
that I grew up in for kind of.
Keeping me from some of that, but
I think that that, that has made
me be able to write the book from
a place of, um, I guess genuine
care and curiosity as opposed to.
Um, one of bitterness.
I think that there can be people who
are my age who have grown up, um,
with this pressure and so they're just
really annoyed and really angry at the
church, at institutionalized religion.
And I think that's kind of fair.
Um, but I didn't want the book to say, um,
here are all the things that are wrong.
Yeah.
I wanted to say, um, let's
just refocus on Jesus, um, and.
You know, you might need to
critique the culture around you.
You might need to critique,
um, what you are hearing.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: mm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: do
so looking at Jesus, looking at the Bible.
Um, yeah.
So, so yes and no.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's interesting, like, just
hearing you say that, um, as I
sort of looked through, through
the book, um, in some, some of the
chapters like were totally debunking
myths
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: were sort
of not, not re like reinforcing is the
wrong word, but upholding the good that's
in there, the myth in inverted commas.
Um, and so like that, that really sort
of came through that, you know, you
weren't coming from a place of bitterness.
You weren't coming from, from
a place of, you know, well
institutionalized religion's,
the worst thing in
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: but nor were
you sort of coming from a place of, um.
you, you, uh, like the
opposite of that,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: kind
of lord lauding, institutionalized
religions and like just get with the
program people.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: so it felt
as I was reading, I mean, look, I'm not
a good Christian girl in, in any sense.
Um, neither am I good
nor a Christian girl.
Um, but um.
But I felt the pastoral tone of that
and as
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Cool.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: I, read
it and, you know, administered to me
as I was sort of reading some of these
things and just going, oh gosh, it's
really nice to have a reframing of
these
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Mm-hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Uh, I've
got daughters as well, so it's helpful
for me to kind of think, think through,
you know, and hear your experiences
now of, um, you know, um, your parents
and the church that you're part of.
In some sense, it's giving you freedom
from some of those, maybe those rules
based things or those expectations.
Um, so, yeah, really nice to hear.
Um, now, like we're sort of, we've
touched on this, but if, if I was to ask
you the question, you know, why did you
write the book?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
what, would your answer be?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, I think what was really, well,
firstly, I was just having these, these
kinds of conversations constantly.
Um, and so I just went, okay, there
is, there seems to be a pervasive
Christian culture that to me
seems antithetical to the Bible.
Um, and so we need to
address these things.
Um, and it was really interesting
because these good Christian girls.
Had such a developed understanding of
the grace of God and could so articulate,
you know, the whole Bible and how we
are saved through, through, um, faith,
through grace, not through works.
They, they cognitively knew this so well.
They could preach it, they could
teach it, and yet they would come
to me with these things like.
I don't think I'm a good enough Christian.
This kind of idea of, I, I don't
think I'm hitting the mark.
Um, and I think there might be
something wrong with me and, and
kind of the unspoken thing, which
is actually everyone feels that way.
Um, and I think that's the
other thing that I wanted to
get across in the book is.
I feel this way, and, you know,
I've got, um, lots of testimonies
from other Christian women saying,
no, we're, this is how we all feel.
Um, you, it's not that you are
not a Christian, it's not that
you're not supposed to be here.
It's not that you're not supposed to be,
um, a leader or in church or whatever.
Um, this is, this is
kind of how we all feel.
Um, and what we really need to
do is focus on Jesus and not.
On, um, the ways that we feel like we're
failing, um, and actually look at what
God calls us to do, um, to seek first his
kingdom and his righteousness to do that.
Um, and yeah, to set our eyes on Jesus.
So I just, yeah, I just felt like
I needed to really address it, um,
in a, yeah, a more public way, um,
because I saw these, these issues
coming up over and over and even.
Um, even kind of this karmic justice
that I felt coming through of
basically, I'm a good Christian girl.
I've done all of these things,
so therefore God owes me X, y, z.
Um, got like, you know, the, the
kind of seeing, oh, well my, my good
Christian girl leaders, they married
at 21, they have big families.
They, you know, this is the life.
This is what it looks
like, and this is what.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: I therefore
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, this is what I deserve
because I've done all the things.
I've, I've read the Bible, I've gone
to church, like this is what I deserve.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
and so yeah, heaps of stuff,
legalism, um, even like, uh, looking
at each other and saying, you know.
That person's, yeah, not that
person's not a Christian or that
person's not a good Christian.
And I would have to say, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like, you know, that person's
been a Christian for two months.
How?
Like, let's praise God about that.
Let's not pick apart
everything they're saying.
You know, coming to me and dobbing on each
other for not being good enough Christians
or whatever, going, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like, this is not what it's about.
And cognitively they knew that.
They knew the verses, they could
explain it, but then a lived
experience was very different.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and it's interesting
'cause like chapter one, you
know, um, good Christian girls are
not good.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
the myth is that good Christian
girls are
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Um, I get a little bit, you know,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I know.
It's like the double
negative or what want, Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Um,
but yeah, like what, what is the,
what's the antidote to that sort of
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: those
different types that you, sort of, types
of things that you've mentioned there,
sort of the judgmentalism or the kind of
self-loathing or the, you know,
the unexpected self-loathing
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
kind of anger at God that I'm not
getting the things that I deserve.
All those sorts of things.
And it some ways it seems like
chapter one, you know, you hit,
you hit the, the doctrine of
sin, right?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
that's, that's kind of where
you go.
Um, and, um, know, um.
Like Alan de Deton, you know,
say with a French, um, accent.
Like he, he talks about the
idea of, um, the doctrine of,
of the universal sinfulness of
humanity being like an incredibly
freeing doctrine
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: of the
idea that, you know, we all, you know,
without that doctrine, without us kind of
going, oh, I'm actually at base level, I'm
sinful.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Then we, we kind of, you know,
like it,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: a great
equalizer
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
totally.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: And so
we don't deserve, you know, we can't
be, we can't be self-righteous because
we're sinful.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: We
can't kind of be angry at God because
he hasn't given us the things that
we, you know, think we deserve.
Because actually at base
level we're sinful and
that kind of
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
And so there's this, he talks
about, and he's an atheist, right?
But.
He talks about that doctrine being really
freeing for humanity, and I think that
you really, you really kind of, um, uh,
displayed that in, in your chapter and
it really sort of sets the basis up for,
um, I guess helpfully charting course
through a, a bunch of those myths as well.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, and I think what I was seeing
as well is, um, you know, young
Christian women who fall away from their
faith or move away because they go.
Oh my gosh, there's so many rules
to Christianity, and I feel so
stifled and I don't feel free,
and so I'm gonna actually leave.
And I kind of felt like they
weren't rejecting Jesus.
They were rejecting a culture,
which was an unhelpful culture.
And so the antidote that, you know,
I'm seeing a lot online for a lot of
people is, well, I, instead of saying.
I'm sinful.
I'm actually gonna say I'm not sinful.
Like that's what they're going towards is
I'm gonna reject what the church,
what the Bible says about my
sinfulness because that's not freeing.
And I am instead just gonna
pretend that I'm not sinful,
which I don't think is freeing.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
think it's way more freeing to
say, oh, actually we're all sinful.
Oh, so I shouldn't be
surprised when I see him.
I shouldn't be.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yes.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
or perplexed or when my friend
sins, I shouldn't be surprised.
And you know, like I kind of talk
about how good Christian girls
they have, they're happy to share
like little sins, but not big sins.
So like, you know, teenage girls will
talk about gossip and Oh yeah, when
my friend start talking about someone
then, you know, sometimes I don't know
what to say, but it's like, no, like.
Good Christian girls, they talk about
other people really un in unkind ways.
Let's actually call it out.
Let's address it.
Let's go, what's going on here?
Why do we feel the need to do that?
As opposed to just saying, oh, well
we sin, but maybe in really little
ways, um, in really non-consequential
ways as opposed to, no, no,
this, this stuff going on here.
We need to, we need to address it.
We need to call it out.
And we need to say Jesus is the
only fix, not us, not our goodness.
Um, Jesus is the only fix to that.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like, let me, let me put
something to you and get your
reaction to it.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: the,
as I was sort of reading through the
book, um, it felt a little bit like
what you were doing, um, was kind of.
I guess in some ways like just drawing
a circle around a whole bunch of
things
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: get
talked about or that aren't allowed
to be admitted or that kind of thing
and saying, Hey guys, this thing,
you know,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: just,
let's not make it secret anymore that we
struggle with this or that we want this
or that we don't want this or that we like
this or that we don't like this and let's
just go, okay, they're not secret anymore.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: just
all acknowledge that actually being
a, being a Christian is is kind of
hard.
I, what are
your thoughts
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, totally.
I think, I think you've hit the nail
totally on their head there because.
What I do a lot in youth ministry
and I, what I think a lot of people
do in youth ministry or young
adults ministry is we talk about the
spiritual disciplines that we wanna
have, that we think are good to have,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
and we talk about them as if.
And we say, you know, like, it's so good.
Go to church, uh, read your bible, pray
This is, this is what you should be doing.
This is what Christian people do.
Um, this is gonna be so beneficial to you.
Um, and that's great.
That's a fantastic message.
I don't want anyone to stop
preaching that message.
Um, but what we failed to recognize
is that as we are preaching, that
there are people sitting there going,
okay, uh, Christians go to church.
Christians love going to church.
Christians meet with other Christians.
This is a really important
part of being a Christian.
I don't want to do that.
What does that mean?
Um, and so it's not that I'm saying,
Hey, everyone don't go to church.
It's, I'm saying, we talk about how
great this is all the time we talk
about, you know, this is part of
our doctrine, this is part of our
theology, is this is really good to do.
Um.
So what do we do when
we don't wanna do that?
And that's pretty much, yeah.
As you said, like a lot of the
chapters are just calling it out
and saying, okay, um, that doesn't
mean that you're not a Christian.
It doesn't mean that
you're a bad Christian.
Um, it just means that you're a human.
Um, and there's a whole bunch of different
reasons why you might not wanna go to
church, and here's how to navigate it.
Here's how to figure it out.
Instead of just being told, well,
you should want to go, well,
you should, you know, enjoy it.
You know, this is what
Christian people do, so, yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
And it's, that word
should, right?
Like, um, the, that word should is
a kind of, uh, it's a tricky word in
the sense that here is a thing that is
true
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: about
you and your relationship with
Jesus.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
should issue in.
and such a thing,
whatever it is,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
greater desire to do this or that,
or,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: um,
greater capacity to set yourself,
you know, your own desires aside or
whatever it
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Um, uh, but yes, sometimes
actually there's a wrestle there.
Um, and so, um, yeah, like that,
that should word like places
expectation and at one level.
there will be a time.
It's not like that.
There
should be a
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
be a time where we love church.
That's when we're gathered
around the throne.
In, in, you know, in the, in the
last days,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: um,
when we're in heaven, where all
those tensions will be resolved.
Um, but we live in, in the reality
of now, and sometimes, sometimes
things make things hard, either
because, um, you know, our own
desires
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: or
because the world that we live
in is actually not always a great
place.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
fallen world.
So, I mean, I, I think it really
provides a lot of great explanatory
power for the young person.
Obviously yes, the young girl.
But look, if, if, if this was,
if this book wasn't so pink.
And if it wasn't so, so,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
That wasn't my choice, but yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: yeah.
Um, and if it wasn't,
so obviously for a young
Christian girl,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: be giving
it to my, and you know, I, I may still
well give it to my, my 16-year-old
boy and my, and my, um, 13-year-old
boy to read because a lot of those
traps, um, are there for, for young
boys as
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
actually, actually it's, in
some ways it's very, it's
universal.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
just for young.
Boys or girls.
It's also, you know, I
feel these, these things
as well.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
uh, Polly, um, we, we kind
of covered this a little bit.
Let, but, you know, we'll,
we'll dive in anyway.
You know, I, I did, I did notice a
tension in the book, um, that Christian
girls, they actually are many of
the
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
mention in the myths of the book.
like there are, IM imperatives of the
gospel.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: In the
Christian life, like read your Bible,
like be good, like pray like, you
know, I could, I could find chapter and
verse in
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Bible
to say, these are things that, that
Christians do and become increasingly,
how do you kind of chart that,
you know, that tension between
the imperative and that kind of
feeling of pressure and expectation.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, so I guess I just really wanted
to clarify in this book that, um.
This imperative is for our good.
So, you know, talking about Bible
reading, for example, the, the chapter
doesn't end well, don't read your Bible.
It's still, it encourages
you to read your Bible.
It tells you how to read your Bible.
Um, but just understands that there, there
might be, be barriers to that and that it
actually doesn't always look the same way.
And that's gonna look
different for everyone.
Um, so I think, I hope you hear those.
Those imperatives throughout the book.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
and certainly, um, I, I also kind of
wrote it a little bit as a reference
book so that, um, people could dive in to
whatever chapter they feel like hits them.
You know, if they're already reading their
Bible, if they're already praying, if
they're not struggling with that, great.
That's what we want.
Um, it'd be fantastic if everyone was
like that, but there will be those
times where they go, you know, this
is really, this is really difficult
and I dunno how to navigate it.
And, um, showing, I guess
a, a freedom in our.
You know, in those imperatives as opposed
to, uh, a salvation based imperative,
I think is the, the key difference.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, just on that chapter, like
the Read and Pray chapter, um, know,
like even just that you mentioned
that there are seasons of stress,
for example, where it might be hard.
I can think of times in my life
where I found it very difficult to
pray, um, because of, know, just
the stress and pressure of sick,
sick, loved ones or whatever it is.
Um, uh, I really, really
appreciate it as well.
The, the kind of difference
that you pointed out between
a habit and a discipline,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: a habit that
something that you, you do automatically,
well, you're so glad that you do it
automatically.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: you're
not glad that you do it automatically,
but then a discipline is something
that you actually have to make CA
conscious choice to set aside time
for.
I
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: was
a really helpful kind of, just
to kind of go, oh yeah, like.
our, our will, our minds
will have, will be drawn to
different things in
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
or discipline.
So that was really helpful.
And then, you know, I mean, as
a good Anglican boy, I, I really
appreciate that you kind of said
actually you can pray pre-written
prayers, um, and they can genuinely be
meaningful.
Um, 'cause I think that, I mean,
that's a myth within the myth, isn't
it?
That
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: we kind of
think that, oh, only the prayers that you.
That you, um, pray from the pit of
your stomach are the meaningful ones.
So I, I really found that helpful,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, that's a big one that, um,
because you know, like in ministry
we do a lot of pre-written prayers
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
sometimes.
I think there's a great
place for both, right?
Um, but people will say, oh,
it's just so much more genuine.
If you just, you know, it's off
the top of your head, but I never
know what to say, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, where are we getting this from?
Like, you know, you're not more godly,
but they hear, you know, these people
who can pray off the top of their
head and they go, I can't do that.
Like, what does that mean?
Am I, am I doing something wrong?
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yep.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
you go, oh no.
It's like, it's something that you learn.
It's something that you
grow in confidence in.
And that's, that's so fine.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: I, I
have a friend who, um, he used to
kind of steal Thomas Cramer's prayers
from the, the Book of Common Prayer.
So apologies to, to people that are not
Anglican and dunno what I'm talking about.
But, um, it's still some of
those really wonderful colleagues
from the book of Common Prayer.
And, um, he'd, he'd kind of paraphrase
them such so that they weren't, um, in
language and without fail, when
he would, you know, he'd pray,
pray these prayers publicly from,
from up front, up front of church.
And without fail, people would
say, oh, your prayers were so rich
and
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: and
thank you so much for your prayers.
And he was like, ah,
mate, just Thomas Kre.
I just paraphrased.
Which I think is really, you
know, that's sort of evidence
of that.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
totally.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
now, I, I, um.
You know, as I was reading, um, as reading
a book, um, heaps of the myths, um,
rang true for me and particularly as I
thought about myself as a young Christian.
would you write a different
book for, I mean, I'm not saying
Polly, will
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
a different book for boys,
but, but you know, um, yeah.
You obviously thought, okay,
we're gonna write this for
girls.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: you write
a different book for boys and girls?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I mean, it's a really hard question
because I minister all day every
day to young Christian women.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
And I think, I think you're right, what
you said before in that there is just
a human condition and it is all of us.
And you know, there are so many
things that are gonna be applicable
to so many different people.
Um, but I, I do think that there is.
At least I sense that there is a
unique pressure on girls to be,
um, particularly perfectionistic.
And whether that's kind of just implicit
in being a young woman or whether
that's societal or whatever it is, I
think there's a little bit more leeway
for, for boys to be boys and, um.
You know, to stuff up and make mistakes
and just be silly teenagers or whatever.
Um, and so potentially it needs slightly,
uh, a different tact because of that.
Um, but yeah, I, I really
don't know is my answer.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Well,
I mean, hopefully someone will
listen and kind of, you know, take
up the
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, go for it.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: the
book for, for, um, the mythical life
of the, it'll be a different title,
I think.
I
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, maybe
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: I think
the, the, yeah, I'm not sure if it'd
be the mythical life, be something else
for, for young boys, but, Hey Polly.
There, there's 10
different myths in there.
Um, I, I think I just wanna
know, like, how did you decide
which myths to put in there?
Because you could probably pick
another sort of, you know, there's
probably lots of other myths that
you could have put in there, but why
did you pick these particular ones?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I think these are the ones that,
that just kept coming across
my path the most consistently.
Um, and I guess maybe things
as well that I felt like I had.
Enough to say about or, or helpful
answers that there are a few other
things that, um, you know, came across
my mind and I thought, oh, I think I
wanna think about that a little bit
more before I, you know, put it in.
Um, also tends, you know,
a good round number.
So I thought, you know, once
I got that I thought, okay,
this is, this is probably good.
But yeah, I think they're just the most
common myths that I hear and that I see.
Um, and that I felt like, oh, I
think I know how to address this.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah,
I mean, one of the chapters I really
appreciated was the one on doubts.
Um, and I think partly because, um,
I mean in many, in many ways, a lot
of the chapters sort of dealt with.
Uh, like the same
undercurrent
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: of,
like, as we've already talked, you
know, there's an expectation that,
you know, um, you, you should believe
firmly or you should, um, be good or
all these sorts of different things.
One of the things that I really
appreciated about, um, the Doubt chapter
is that you, that you found a place
for doubt like that you kind of said
it, it's actually, it's actually okay.
And it's actually a, a normal
part of the Christian life.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
I think, I think doubt
is often quite scary.
Um, and I think when I've approached
it with people, it's, it's like
the worst sin that they feel
like they could do is doubt.
And they're even scared to talk
about it, scared to admit it.
Um, you know, this is just not something
that good Christian girls should be doing,
especially those who are, you know, in
leadership positions or who have, you
know, made a stand about their faith.
And so I really wanted
to kind of take the.
Take the wind out of its sails and just
say, you know what, this is all of us.
Um, and this is, this is part of,
this is part of being a human.
Like we are constantly doubtful people.
Um, and that doesn't change what is true.
Um, just because we are doubting,
um, so how can we use this?
How can we use this to learn more?
Um, you know, and particularly thinking
about those developmental stages
of, you know, leaving your parents
and creating your own identity.
And that's got a lot of doubt, like
thinking through what your parents, even
in the, you know, not thinking about.
Spiritual faith things, you
know, thinking about do I think
the same thing as my parents?
You know, do I not all of that.
It's, it's just a normal
part of growing up.
And so I really just wanted people
to, to not feel so scared about it.
Um, to be able to have seasons of doubt
and go, okay, the world isn't over.
Um, I can, I can get through this
and I've got some good strategies
to get through it as well.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah, and
I mean, one of the interesting things
as well is that we know that there is,
that, you know, there's evidence that,
when young Christians have, um,
the opportunity to kind of explore
doubts and
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
um, where they're able to be
worked through and not always
answered
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: You know,
like really succinctly with perfect
answers, but where they've been out,
where, where they've had that opportunity
to wrestle, that they are actually more
likely to, to stick with Jesus long term.
Um, which is amazing and, and so
appreciate that, that, um, you
know, I mean this, hopefully this
book would be read by a, a whole
bunch of, um, of young Christian
girls, who, you know, will encounter
doubt.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: doubts
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
not maybe not
every
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
everybody does.
you know, I love that idea of
taking the wind outta the sails of
doubt.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: it in some
ways and not, and, but you were nuanced.
Like it's, it's not like
you said, oh, doubt is
good,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: mm
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: you know,
or, or, or that doubt is, you know,
pleasurable
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
It's not, it's not the goal, but
it's, it's a part of a lot of people's
story and, um, it can be useful.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, the other thing that I loved
about your, your book was that there
were stacks and stacks of stories in
there,
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614: Hmm.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: were
obviously written by people that you'd
come across, um, and that kind of thing.
Um, why did you include
the stories in there?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I think because I wanted to really show
that you are not alone, um, that it's not
just me who's had the same experience, but
it's so many different women and I think.
It's been like the biggest compliment
ever that, the most common thing
I hear is people say, this is me.
Um, like I'm reading
this book and this is me.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Mm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
and I just, yeah, like normalizing
this experience of, of growing
up as a good Christian girl
and saying, yeah, it's me too.
And it's this woman and it's that woman.
And, um, we've all done it.
We've all been there.
We've all gone through it and.
Um, you don't have to be worried or scared
that, um, you know, you're coming across a
part of your life where, where something's
happened that's not meeting your
expectations of who you should be because.
We've all been there.
Um, so I just, yeah, I really
wanted to normalize that experience.
I really wanted to show that this is a
really collective experience and that,
you know, if you talk to your mom, if you
talk to your youth minister, if you talk
to a leader, if you talk to your older
sister, they're gonna say, yeah, me too.
Um,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: mm-hmm.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
gonna say, wow, you are weird.
And wow, that's not what a Christian does.
And, you know, like, shame on you.
They're gonna say, yeah, that's,
yeah, that's, that's all of us.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: the
wrestle.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Totally.
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah.
uh, last question I wanna ask you is
this, um, you know, you've written
a book for young Christian girls,
um, you know, good Christian girls.
Um, you know, I operate in
the world of youth ministry.
That's sort of my, you know, that's
the, the world in which I kind of,
um, spend time and, um, talk with
people and that kind of thing.
What do you wish that people in
youth ministry would understand
about ministry with girls?
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
I think.
I'm gonna say something that
might sound contradictory to
what I've been talking about,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Polly.
This is great.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
but that is that teenage
girls are not homogenous.
Um, they're not all the same.
And I think that there are
characteristics, as I've said, like that
unique pressure of, of being perfect.
Um, but I think sometimes,
and you know, I'm gonna go
out a limb maybe, um, kind of.
More than other groups of
society, we decide that, that,
um, teenage girls are the same.
Um, they're not really allowed to be
anything different or, you know, if
they're all, I don't know, love Taylor
Swift and Makeup and one Direction,
or whatever it is, I don't know.
Um, they're,
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: not
just conforming to some of these myths
within the church, but you're also
talking about some of the, the myths
or the stereotypes that are outside
of the church as
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
yeah, totally.
Just thinking.
He's a teenage girl.
I know what she's about.
Um, and I, I think we can do
that more with teenage girls
than we can do with teenage boys.
Um, I feel like there is more variation
allowed for teenage boys and more
variation allowed for men in general.
And so I think what I wanna say is,
um, you know, if you are a leader
of a Christian girl or a good
Christian girl and you read this
book, um, you don't necessarily
know everything that's going on.
Um.
They might not struggle with any of
this, they might struggle with all of it.
They might only struggle
with one or two things.
And so, yeah, I think being, being
curious and being, um, interested in
each teenage girl as a person, first
and foremost, I think there is some good
general things that we can know or learn
about, you know, culture or about, um.
You know, the issues that Christian
girls will tend to come across, but to
kind of put them in a box and say, well,
I know all about you because I've done
my research, I think is, is misguided.
So I think that's what I'd say.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630: Yeah,
get to know the, the people that are in
front of your
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
um, as a, as a first
kind of port
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
Yeah, definitely.
al-james_1_06-12-2025_150630:
Hey Polly, I'm so glad that you
wrote this book, um, and I really
enjoyed chatting to you about it.
And, um, thank you so
much for coming on the
podcast.
squadcaster-81g7_1_06-12-2025_150614:
so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.