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In this episode, Naomi has a conversation with her colleague at Brighton People's Theatre; Jack Parris, about the responsibility of creating a structure or purpose. He talks about the importance of this responsibility because without it, the work can feel uncontained and daunting. The structure creates limitations and gives a picture to everyone involved in the project of what the parameters are for people to play in.
Jack tries to communicate as clearly as possible about where we are in the co-creation process. He tries to generate as much clarity as possible to demystify the theatre making process so that people have an overview of the structure and purpose.
When the structure and purpose is clear, you see people really playing with freedom. With clear parameters the conversation is richer and people feel safer. There is a safe container for the work.
It is challenging during co-created work to hold this responsibility as there are so many unknowns during the process. Jack talks about the importance of being able to be clear about what is known and unknown at each moment in the process. This can be frustrating for people who might feel less comfortable working with so many unknowns. It can also be challenging letting go of ideas, as not everything that is suggested can be integrated into the final project. Having a clear purpose on why we are doing this can help with decision making, but at the start of a process even the purpose will not be clear.
There are risks if this is not held effectively that people lose interest in the work and get confused about what they are doing and why. It is really important to have as much clarity as possible for the organisation, starting at the top with a clear vision and mission. This enables decision making to become clearer and easier with a clear purpose and structure guiding the work.
Naomi Alexander is the CEO and Artistic Director of Brighton People's Theatre. Her AHRC funded research Let's Create: Do we know how to? identified 20 qualities, skills and responsibilities that are important for artists leading co-creative practice. The report and illustrations are available here.
Jack Parris is the Associate Director of Brighton People's Theatre.
Creators and Guests
What is Let's Create: Do We Know How To??
A deep dive into the qualities, skills and responsibilities that artists, as leaders of co-created art, embody and practice in their work.
Theatre Critic Lyn Gardner 'wholeheartedly recommends' this podcast :)
Episode 1: Open and Humble Ned Glasier from Company Three
Episode 2: Grounded and Energetic Sita Thomas from Fio
Episode 3: Empathy and Care for Others Tashi Gore from Glass Performance
Episode 4: Adaptable and Flexible Kelly Green
Episode 5: True to Yourself Conrad Murray from Battersea Arts Centre’s Beatbox Academy
Episode 6: Patient Kane Husbands from The Pappy Show
Episode 7: Holding Space Tanushka Marah from ThirdSpace Theatre
Episode 8: Managing Energy Levels Jack Parris from Brighton People’s Theatre
Episode 9: Listening and Communicating Dan Thompson Freelance Artist
Episode 10: Inclusive Language Kane Husbands from The Pappy Show
Episode 11: Art Form Skills Conrad Murray from Battersea Arts Centre’s Beatbox Academy
Episode 12: Facilitation Skills Sarah Blowers from Strike a Light
Episode 13: Safety Kelly Green Freelance Artist Released
Episode 14: Safeguarding Jason Camilleri from Wales Millenium Centre
Episode 15: Being Accountable Sarah Blowers from Strike a Light Released
Episode 16: Rights and Ethics Ned Glasier from Company Three Released
Episode 17: Know your limits and involve other people Jess Thorpe from Glass Performance * Coming soon
Episode 18: To create a structure/purpose Jack Parris from Brighton People’s Theatre * Coming soon
Episode 19: To know an appropriate amount about who you are working with Dan Thompson Freelance Artist * Coming soon
Episode 20: To ensure people have a positive experience Tanushka Marah from ThirdSpace Theatre * Coming soon
Naomi: Welcome to Let's Create: Do We Know How To? My name is Naomi Alexander, I'm the CEO and Artistic Director of Brighton People's Theatre. Last year I got some funding from the Arts and Humanities Research Council as part of my CLORE fellowship to do some research into the qualities, skills and responsibilities that artists as leaders hold in making co-creative work. This podcast series explores each of the findings in a little bit more depth with a different artist.
Joining me today is Jack Paris. Jack is the Associate Director at Brighton People's Theatre. He is a writer, director, composer and I've had the pleasure of working with him for the last couple of years. Welcome, Jack.
Jack: Hello Naomi, it's lovely to be here.
Naomi: It's great to have you with me today. We're going to be talking about the responsibility which emerged through the of creating a structure or purpose. So I'm just wondering if we could start off by, if you reflect on this responsibility, can you tell me why you think it's important for artists leading co-creative practice?
Jack: I was thinking actually this might be one of the most important things of all of the things on the list, which is why I said I wanted to talk about it because it feels very important and it feels like one of those things which essentially dictates how well you're doing co-creative practice because I had this image in my head of an artist drawing a line on a paper.
So imagine you've got a blank piece of paper and you've got 20 people all drawing a picture and they're all going to draw a picture at the same time and as the facilitator of the process, you're kind of the hand that everyone is kind of moving around the page. And when you've got nothing on the page to start with, I mean 20 people trying to draw a picture, no one really knows what the hell's going on. But then when you have one line, imagine one line is drawn and then you have a bit more of an idea and then all of these expectations and thoughts come into people's heads and maybe it's a horse, maybe it's a shoe, maybe it's a landscape, maybe who knows what it is. But then another line is drawn, you've got two lines and then a whole other host of expectations and thoughts and images come into people's heads and it's kind of like a process of doing that in a sense, creating a structure. It feels like when you're structureless and there's nothing there, people don't really know what to expect or what's happening or what to imagine or how to be creative.
If you say could you tell me a joke, what's the joke going to be? But if you say could you create a joke, even if it's really bad, about these objects, about an orange and a boat and you could probably do that because you're given these limitations. But the structure of this, going back to the artist drawing on a page metaphor, I feel like eventually you have 20 lines or something and you go oh actually this is clearly, it looks a bit like a fruit bowl, let's say. Now we don't know what fruit's going to go in it but at least we can keep on making lines, we keep drawing and we keep adding bits and bobs and we're fleshing out the picture together.
But I think the reason why I feel structure is so important is as the person that's facilitating and helping the drawing manifest and helping the drawing take shape, you're the person who is creating some of the parameters for people to play in and if you get it wrong, people don't play or people find it really difficult to play. People don't know what the parameters are to create and I think it's all about creating those parameters and those limitations for people then to kind of spread their wings and play and create. And I think we run the risk in co-creative practice of either not doing enough of it and people going what is this, I don't really know what's going on, what are we doing or doing too much of it and actually not really being co-creation and it being we just had a few ideas from people and now I've gone and written this play which is co-creation which obviously isn't. So I think it struck me as like a really essential thing to get right in what we do.
Naomi: I love that. And I really love the fact that you've drawn attention to the fact that there needs to be a structure and purpose in order to create enough certainty that people can freely play within a set of limitations but not too constricting limitations that actually you've defined everything and there's no room for people to truly collaborate or co-create. Thank you so much for that. I'm curious, can you describe what you do or what the organisation that you're working for does to hold this responsibility?
Jack: I think we try and communicate as clearly as possible about where we are in the process. So for example when we did our co-creation meeting in Abyssinia, the restaurant, the other week, there was so many brilliant suggestions of like can we make a drag horror show, can we make a sci-fi comedy or whatever it might have been but then just going actually this moment in time all we're deciding on is the theme. So going at this point the line that we're making, to continue the metaphor to the line that we make on the page, is this line which we have a huge number of possibilities in terms of theme but we're not at this moment deciding what the genre is or the form is.
So I think it's about being really clear with people about where you are in the process and what you're hoping to achieve in this moment of the creation process. I think being really clear with people about certain creative roles so introducing I think we do this really well you know we try and demystify the artistic process and go well this is the dramaturg or this is the writer or this is the composer, this is the lighting designer and trying to channel creative suggestions to the right people. So again, you're just rather than going yes at this moment at the beginning stages we're going people think of lighting suggestions, you know well actually we don't know anything about the staging yet, we don't know anything about this or that, and I think it's about again demystifying the process so people know where we are and what things can kind of be decided in this moment. Not to say that they can't later on hold the suggestion and propose it but I think that's that's useful to give people an overview of the structure.
Naomi: It's almost like having a route map or an overarching almost like a framework or something that explains this is the overarching from start to finish what we anticipate but then also reminding people like you said in the moment, and right now we're deciding on theme in a few months time we might be deciding what form, is it a show or is it a book, is it whatever? I think those distinctions are really helpful. Can you just talk through what happens when you think this responsibility is held effectively?
Jack: I think you see people playing freely, like playing really beautifully and just giving themselves to the moment. I think reflecting on some of the work we've done recently in workshops some of the improvisation workshops that we've been running over the last six weeks, we found I mean it's true in the room when you go okay, improvise, people go oh what, yeah okay, and a scene brilliantly is created because the guys we work with are brilliant and creative and they just throw themselves into something and often it can be brilliant. But equally, it's much easier if you go improvise a ballet, and they go ah, ballet, and all the associations and expectations that come with that, whether it be their physicality or movement or rhythm or whatever just rushes into their imagination, and it basically sparks people's imaginations, I think, because you have something to work with, you have something to bounce off.
So I think people feel safer, they take more risks, they're willing to share more I think if in conversations because I mean I guess I'm talking about workshops. But in conversations, if you make the parameters of the project really clear about what we're kind of digging into, I think people are willing to share more and talk more freely. So I think the work becomes that much richer, I think people play harder and they give themselves more to the work. So yeah, it's so very important, really is.
Naomi: Yeah. And you said a word safe, that people feel safe, and I guess that there is that it's a safe container, isn't it, if you're able to create a structure and purpose and hold that responsibility really effectively, it does generate a feeling of safety with people that they understand what's happening and they understand why they're being asked to do why the invitation is there, what's the purpose of the invitation, and people can then think through do I want to say yes to this, do I want to contribute to this? Whether that's an invitation to an overall, get involved in co-creating a whole project or whether it's an invitation to co-create in the moment, that structure and purpose is so, so important as you say. What do you think the challenges are with holding this responsibility?
Jack: I think not knowing sometimes, not knowing where the process is going it's a really difficult thing to go yes, here's the structure, and the structure is this but we don't actually know what the show's about. I think there's a lot of knowns and unknowns that we work with, and I think that's the difficult thing is is communicating the unknowns, and I guess giving people the confidence that the unknowns will at some point be known. So it's like well, where am I going to be standing in this scene? Well, we don't know that at the moment but we will soon. And I think that's the thing is people do want to know stuff. They want to know whether it's about the whole process or whether it's about in their specific role or all number of things.
And we spent, during born and bred, a lot of time and energy is actually devoted to just, I guess kind of, making people feel secure and safe and the knowledge that even though we don't know at this moment in time it will become clear soon and we will let them know as soon as we know. But I think that's the hard thing is managing that contradiction of we don't know but don't worry everything's fine and we have a structure and it's all going to be great.
Naomi: And we don't know because we need to make it up with you. We need to discover it through this process with you which can be a hard thing to get your head around if you're new to working in this way.
Jack: Absolutely. And I think it's about some people really enjoy that back and forth and like oh we don't really know and we get to decide and other people just like can we just make a decision already? Can we just know what the show's about? And I think that's the kind of most challenging thing is to hold those two positions that bit, it's slightly contradictory. And also, I think also letting go of ideas I think that can be really hard. So again, if we're saying here's a structure and the structure is this and we're creating structure but then that allows people to chip in ideas and mould the project and also mould the structure in some way, but then it does mean that not all of these suggestions can be used and all these suggestions can kind of be integrated. So I think that's another hard thing is to encourage people to to let go of things lightly as we're discovering things.
So as we're going we're creating structure together and your theme doesn't get picked, for example, the thing that you really wanted to make it doesn't kind of make it to the next stage, I think that's a really hard thing for people to manage.
Naomi: I agree. But I think a way around that is to have a really clear structure for decision making which I think we're getting better at. But we're always trying to improve how we do things, I feel like that's a thing that we can get better at in terms of being really clear with people about how creative decisions are made and why. And I think having that really clear purpose about why we're doing this, what impact do we want to have in the world with this show and then making decisions on the basis of that can really help.
Jack: Definitely. But that's also an unknown, isn't it, that's the hard thing is that what's the purpose of the show is also like and that's up for grabs. So I think yeah, it's always a hard negotiation, I think.
Naomi: Yeah, totally, especially at the beginning of a process, and yeah, that's with the people that we co-create with but also with the funders. You and I were in a meeting yesterday talking about actually all we can really give the funders is a process, a really clear structure and a really clear purpose that's actually all we can give them at this moment in time and hope that the funders will buy into that.
Jack: It's a really tricky position to be in, isn't it, because it's like everyone wants to know more information about what's happening but you don't know until actually you've been in the room with people for 6 workshops, 12 workshops or whatever the length of the process is. But yeah, it's a hard thing that balancing of knowing and also people just needing to know the information.
Naomi: Yeah, that's right and trusting that it will evolve. Can I ask what risks there are if you don't hold this responsibility effective?
Jack: I think in a co-creative process and in say rehearsing a co-creative process, I think you run the risk of people losing interest in what you're doing. If you're not communicating clearly enough, I think you kind of lose people's willingness to go along the journey with you. I think there can be confusion. I mean, I think co-creation is one those things that when you're working with participants anyway, there's a sense of the explanation of the process every stage is really essential because and it's just making a theatre, it's a process which is it has its kind of technical nuances, I suppose. It does need demystifying. But I think if you're not doing that, if you're not doing it effectively, you end up people asking like why are we doing this now? Like what's the purpose of this? Like are we doing another writing workshop? Like why are we doing that? Like didn't we decide on this? Because there's a lot of development time that happens both with working towards a script or developing a piece of devising work whatever it is where you go well actually at this stage we still haven't properly cemented some of these ideas. And I think people lose interest people confusion reigns and I think you just lose people in the room.
And in workshops, I think we do a lot of drop-in workshops and I think similarly structure is really important for those because what you're doing is you're laying out two hours of the workshop this is what we'll be doing. I think our practice is to kind of just give before jumping straight into playing because you don't want to talk too much at the top of a workshop. But this idea of like just in this two hours here are the things we'll be doing, but maybe introducing what the focus of the workshop is at some point later on in the workshop after you've had a bit of a warm-up you go okay today we're actually going to be looking at whether it's improvising with physical imitations or whether it's looking at Larban efforts or whatever it might be. But just giving people a bit of an idea of what they're doing, why we might be doing it but giving people room to explore what it means to them and explore what it means for them playing in that space. Because again if you don't give that structure that container, then I think people again they just ask why am I doing this? What's the purpose of this thing I'm now doing? So yeah, it's really important to communicate.
Naomi: Great. We're coming to the end of the episode. Before we go, can I just ask is there anything else that you would like to say about this responsibility of creating a structure or purpose?
Jack: I think probably what BPT does really well is that, and I think it derives from the top of the organisation actually, so from your work Naomi, and I mean we have a very clear mission and a very clear objective in the work that we do. And I think that filters down. So talking kind of, I suppose mainly we've been talking about rehearsal processes and co-creative processes and workshops, but I guess for anyone that's creating a company or is an artist that's kind of looking to create work, I think it's something about having that the structure of of what you're looking to create, like the structure of again, your purpose, your mission and objectives in the work that you're creating, knowing what it is you're trying to achieve, that does filter down in terms of informs all of the other kind of subsets of questions that you might then have to answer.
So I think a lot of the time when we're in the office and we're talking about like there are a lot so many decisions to make both creatively and organisationally and actually if you know what you're trying to do as a company, actually those decisions are really easy to make because you go well, this is what we're trying to do. This is clearly the thing we're trying to do. We're trying to prioritise arts engagement and arts opportunities for people that have the least number of opportunities. Take that as one of the examples of things that we do with BPT, you can make a lot of decisions based on that. So I think again, structure within an organisation helps it function when you've got a really clear purpose. It does filter down to a lot of even some of the artistic decisions that we make in the room, that's just something else to mention, I think. It's because we're not talking about the organisation and about the use of it in that respect.
But I think as a facilitator though it's yeah, I hold it true that for me at least it's a really, really important thing structure because really it decides whether you're doing co-creation or not. It's the thing which really decides are you actually managing to achieve your goals including people in the journey and making sure they know where they are in the journey and then giving them the tools to actually express themselves and feed in imaginatively and not try and steer things too heavily early on. So all of that it's difficult, it's delicate work where you're imposing light structure it's clear but it's also not dominated in any way by the artist or facilitator.
Naomi: I think you said something super helpful there which is that if you've got a very clear structure and purpose overall guiding your work decisions become easier. And I think for me that is why our mission to bring people together to be part of something bigger than themselves does feel really helpful. Because we have had loads of conversations, haven't we, about does this decision do that, yes, it does. Great, we do it. No, it doesn't and we won't.
Jack: Exactly that and you can boil it down to that.
Naomi: And it's quite it's simple. Yeah. So I agree. I think that's a super helpful point to end on actually, Jack. Yeah, if you've got that organisational clarity of what the purpose is of the organisation, then it does make the purpose of the co-creative process and all of the millions of decisions that have to be made it makes all of that easier, which when you're doing something as complex and nuanced as co-creating is going to be helpful.
Jack: Yes, without a doubt it steers the ship, doesn't it.
Naomi: Yeah, great. Jack, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. If you're interested in learning more about Jack's work, please follow the links under the podcast. Thanks, Jack.
Jack: Thank you, Naomi.