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HR Voices is a scenario-based podcast for People Leaders who’ve actually had to make the call.
Each episode brings experienced HR and People leaders into realistic, anonymized workplace scenarios—the kind you recognize immediately. Performance issues. Messy conflicts. Investigations that don’t fit neatly into a policy box. Instead of talking about their own companies, guests react to outside cases and walk through how they’d think it through in real time.
There are no right answers here. What you’ll hear is judgment: how seasoned leaders balance risk, fairness, legal reality, and humanity when the stakes are high and the path isn’t obvious.
HR Voices is for HR, People Ops, legal, and leaders who want to hear how other smart humans actually handle employee relations—without confidentiality breaches, hypotheticals that feel fake, or a lecture on “best practices.”
Rebecca Taylor (00:17)
Hello and welcome to HR Voices. I'm your host Rebecca Taylor and I'm here with Lisseth Zouhbi the Chief People and Culture Officer at Child Care Resource Center. Lisseth, thank you so much for being here.
Lisseth Zouhbi (00:28)
Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you. It's great to be here and talk about our favorite HR subjects today.
Rebecca Taylor (00:35)
Yes, I know, I'm so excited. For those who are new here, HR Voices explores real and fabricated anonymized employee relations scenarios through the lens of experienced HR and people leaders like Lisseth right here. So we're going to evaluate a realistic workplace situation, and we're going to demonstrate how someone like Lisseth might assess risk, apply judgment, and design practical responses. So we're not here to necessarily say that we know everything about employee relations or HR, because I think that would be an impossible statement for someone to make.
Well, we're really here to talk about how strong HR leaders think when facing ambiguity. And we're not looking for a single correct answer. We're really kind of just looking at some of what the work of HR really is. So thank you for being here. Lisseth, thank you for being game for this format. And are you ready for your scenario?
Lisseth Zouhbi (01:19)
Yes, let's do this.
Rebecca Taylor (01:21)
Okay.
Alrighty. So we're calling this the retaliation question. An employee files an internal harassment complaint against her supervisor. HR investigates and finds the complaint unsubstantiated. Three months later, the employee receives her first negative performance review in five years of employment. Her new manager, the company reassigned her after the complaint, cites missed deadlines and quality issues. The employee files a retaliation claim, arguing the negative review is punishment for filing the complaint.
The manager insists the review is based solely on recent performance and has nothing to do with the prior complaint. So before we start to jump into making any kind of decisions about anything, can you talk to me about what's the most risky or the most unclear for you in this situation? If this landed on your desk, where would your thought process need to start?
Lisseth Zouhbi (02:13)
Gosh, so many things crossed my mind. think first is understanding what was the context of that internal harassment complaint. What were the concerns that were raised? What was the content of the investigation? And the decision to reassign her to another leader. So that's one piece.
The other piece is the performance. know, taking a deeper dive and understanding were there performance issues prior to the employee being reassigned to this new manager? What conversations or documentation?
has a new manager provided to that employee to substantiate the rating, right? So there's different elements to this and when complaints like this are brought to HR, it is really important that we take all these matters seriously and that we do the due diligence and investigate properly and understand what are the core themes or issues to be
able to outline the investigation, your questions to be asked during investigation, who are you going to be bringing into the investigation, what is the documentation that you didn't need to look for, what are your internal processes. So there is a lot to unpack in this scenario.
Rebecca Taylor (03:43)
Yeah. And I always try to think about when you're looking at all those different sort of components, I think the timeline is also an important thing to kind of look at, right? Because, you know, this employee, seems like from the context that's here, you know, she worked underneath this one supervisor for five years because it says, you know, in no time in five years has she had a bad performance review. But it seems like she's been, she was reassigned to this new manager three months ago and now she's getting a performance review.
after going through a harassment investigation, a change in manager. So for the new manager to turn around and say their performance is suffering, think they're taking, there's a lot that could be happening in between that could be impacting that, but also how can they judge that when she's so new to working with them, right?
Lisseth Zouhbi (04:31)
Yeah, yeah, and you bring up a good point, know, establishing the timeline at events, you know, that's something that.
I ask my team regularly is, what is the chronology of key events that has happened with this employee to better understand what has happened in the past and if there are any particular patterns that we need to identify as well. And, you know, to your point, the performance documentation is going to be really critical because, you know, you're going to probably want to the reviews from prior years and see ⁓
what was written in them, not just the overall rating, but what was the feedback that was in those reviews? Is there any similar feedback to what this new manager documented? How does the feedback vary from...
you know, the other manager to this manager. Are there any specific, you know, deadlines or quality or metrics that this person is missing? But also, were there any clear expectations when that transition happened to that manager? Did that manager meet with the employee to talk about, you know, sort of the expectations under the leadership? Because every leader has different styles, right, and understanding.
⁓
their priorities, understanding maybe of were there other changes to the job besides the new manager? Was there anything else that shifted? And so those are things that we want to start taking a deeper dive and seeing where you might find some correlations or some really wide deviations from one manager to the other.
Rebecca Taylor (06:20)
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, kind of going into starting to understand previous, you know, to your point, previous performance reviews, not just those scores or ratings, but what was the content in those reviews, right? Like what specific feedback did she get? Is there anyone else that you'd want to hear from? So I imagine, you know, we're hearing from the employee because they're the one who's making the claim, right? But who else would you need to hear from if this was at your desk?
Lisseth Zouhbi (06:46)
You might want to also consider speaking to relevant peers or team members under this leader.
and see if there's any consistencies or inconsistencies about their leadership style with what the employee is also alleging. You might also want to look into your other investigation if there's been any concerns about this new manager in terms of their performance management, because this will help to maybe perhaps validate if the performance concerns are credible.
and they're consistently recognized amongst other individuals as well. So again, I think it would depend on how severe the differences would be and understanding what does that org structure look like to identify who may be someone that can give you some of those feedback in correlation to the concerns brought up.
Rebecca Taylor (07:30)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good to just sort of give yourself some comparative data, like you said, to just sort of look at peers and, know, are they held to the same standard and have they always been held to that same standard? And has that changed in how this new person is kind of integrating into this new team? I think it's like a good move. The peer side can really tell pretty big story. I think from the current investigation as well as the prior, right? Because
maybe she was quote getting away with a lot before, And wasn't corrected on certain behaviors because of whatever it was that led to the harassment that was being alleged. I think this is almost like it's the current case today, but I think it's also almost like you have to use the prior case as part of understanding the full picture, right?
Lisseth Zouhbi (08:36)
Yeah, I the other thing that I would ask the current manager is ask them were they aware of the, you know, complaint that was brought up ⁓ because that way, you know, you can assess maybe there was some bias.
Rebecca Taylor (08:47)
Mmm.
Lisseth Zouhbi (08:53)
You know, just being aware there's nothing wrong with it, but sometimes it could raise any biases that might influence those decisions. So that would be something important to ask that manager is to what knowledge were they aware of it? Again, you know, sort of what was that transition between managers? Were there any specific, you know, notes that were shared among the leaders?
and looking at were there any guidance or guardrails given to the new manager about this employee transitioning over. So those could be some gaps where you might find additional context that would help to evaluate the concerns raised by the employee.
Rebecca Taylor (09:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah. And at this point, what are some of the assumptions that you'd be careful not to make?
Lisseth Zouhbi (09:44)
I mean, you don't want to jump to conclusion that the manager has bias against this employee because of the claim that the employee filed before, right? So that's why you have to understand that there's...
a difference between how is the performance assessed and is it consistent with, you know, your policies, your practices? Is the manager, the current manager, evaluating this employee the same way the manager evaluates the other employees? So you want to make sure there is that, you know, consistency. You want to, you know, separate the complaint from the actual performance issues, right? You want to look into the complaint
Rebecca Taylor (10:26)
Mmm.
Lisseth Zouhbi (10:28)
specifically you want to do that investigation, but if there are performance issues, that needs to be addressed and applied consistently with how you would address any other employee. Because if you are treating that employee differently, then that's where you get into legal issues, right? And you start...
differentiating how you're treating that employee and can be perceived as retaliation. And that's what you want to make sure that there is no retaliation because the employee filed that initial complaint.
And that's why you go through this process, doing your due diligence, interviewing others, pulling the records, identifying, you know, any some common themes to be able to assess the conclusion of your investigation. And there's no simple answer. There's a lot of complexities, but this is why you have to do the due diligence.
Rebecca Taylor (11:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I think that's like the HR t-shirt. Like, there's no simple answers. There's a lot of complexities. Because to your point, there's the retaliation insinuation or claim, and there's the potential performance issue. And you're right, they do have to be sort of addressed differently. Differently but related, right? Because sometimes, you know,
Lisseth Zouhbi (11:32)
Yes.
Rebecca Taylor (11:49)
Sometimes performance or performance issues can be used as ways to sort of orchestrate determination. But if there's not a lot of documentation that shows that that that issue has been communicated to the employee consistently. So I'd also want to kind of understand, is this the employees first time that they're hearing from this manager that they're not hitting their goals or deadlines? Or was this a complete surprise to them? Right. Because it kind of sounds like it either is a complete surprise.
which is an error on the manager's part for not sharing with them, or it's not a surprise and it could be the employee thinking it's retaliation when it's not. Like this is where it starts to get hairy.
Lisseth Zouhbi (12:29)
Yeah, yeah, and you know, this is why also that handover understanding what was that transition like between the employee and the manager. And to your point, by the time performance reviews are done, the feedback on the reviews should not be a surprise.
Rebecca Taylor (12:51)
Yeah.
Lisseth Zouhbi (12:52)
And this is something that we also communicate with our teams and our leaders is if you have an under performer, but you haven't documented or you haven't brought the concerns up.
The time it's not time at the time of the review should you know it shouldn't be a surprise. But if you haven't done all that preliminary performance management then it's really hard to substantiate it and then any annual review and you know annual review should not be a surprise and this is why consistent check ins consistent feedback documented is really important because all
that will substantiate your performance review. But when that doesn't happen, it's really hard to.
support those decisions and when claims arise, this is where it starts to get more complicated because you don't have those documentations. You haven't demonstrated that you've given that feedback to the employee, that you've provided opportunities for improvement. So it's just, it's a multitude of things that accumulate and
Rebecca Taylor (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
Lisseth Zouhbi (14:09)
Throughout the year, you need to be given that feedback and it should not just be a one-time event.
Rebecca Taylor (14:16)
Yeah.
I agree. And I think it also kind of comes with giving the ongoing feedback and being very clear with goals. Because sometimes, you know, mis-deadline, that's a clear goal that you either hit or don't, right? Like, it's like the concrete date that something has to happen or be submitted or whatever that is. But when I see something like they're citing quality of work as another performance issue, that's something I'd want to understand more too. Was that standard set?
Is it a preference where maybe the new manager prefers something done one way and this employee is still doing it the way the former manager preferred it because that's what they know. That's what they worked under for five years. So whenever I see something like quality of work in a scenario like this, it just gives me so much more that I want to dig into and kind of understand, the employee know what the new standards were? What are those standards? Are they true standards or are they preferences?
And that is just one of those things that it can just be vague enough that if it wasn't clearly stated and clearly managed to, then it might not hold up.
Lisseth Zouhbi (15:24)
Exactly, exactly. And what is it that we're measuring the quality against? Right? What are those measurement tools? It's like when we said KPIs, it's not just about setting the KPI, it's understanding
what is it achieve, what's an exceeds and what is it does not meet. But you need to set those standards when you establish those KPI so that the employee knows that when they get the evaluation and they get the rating, they know what the outcome is supposed to be based on those defined criteria. Because it can be ambiguous because this creates opportunity.
for potential bias and that's where we get into some ethical and compliance issues that then we sort of have to peel back and investigate. And this is where it's gotta be consistent across the organization. You have to explain to the leaders what's the purpose of us going through this process of
defining how it's gonna be evaluated and the constant feedback. And the same thing with the employee, understanding what they're held accountable and those expectations because it works both ways, right? It's not just the sole responsibility of the leader, it's not just the sole responsibility of employee. Everybody plays a crucial role in this and sometimes it comes down to basic communication skills, right?
Rebecca Taylor (16:53)
Mm-hmm
Lisseth Zouhbi (16:56)
Maybe it could also be that somewhere there is a gap in what was communicated and how it was received, right? And this is why asking for clarifying questions is good to make sure that both parties understand what those expectations are.
Rebecca Taylor (17:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
And using a term like retaliation, claiming something as retaliation, that's a big claim too, right? You know, and even the prior claim harassment, like that's, you know, that's also a big claim that has to get taken seriously. So I think there's, you know, an important part of being the HR person in this is to make sure that every single party is heard, because sometimes that's what
That's half of it is people just need to be heard. They need to be supported and understood, right? But it's one of those things that you can't dismiss. You can't dismiss the person's stance by saying like, you know, it's not retaliation. You know, you're just getting used to a new manager. You know, let's just, you know, move on. It's important to take something like that seriously because ideally, you know, if you're, if you're investigating something like this over time, you're documenting it over time.
if similar behavior happens again, either with the same employee or by the same manager, you can start to establish a pattern and start to understand like, okay, maybe there is real, maybe there is real retaliation happening. If not, in this case, maybe in another, and it kind of, the pattern starts to really shed some light on where you might have some real issues too.
Lisseth Zouhbi (18:27)
Yeah, that's why maintaining clear records of the investigation and doing your due diligence and to your point, you have to take it seriously. And when these claims come to you, connecting merely with the employee and asking those questions to make sure that you've captured everything correctly so that
you're investigating and you're looking into their concerns as they've brought it up, know, summarizing the findings and the decision, because it helps from a legal protection, but also the internal accountability that the matter is taken seriously and that a full investigation was done. And what were the action steps to resolve it, if any. But then taking it a step further,
There also has to be a check-in with the parties.
once it's been fully investigated and it's been communicated to the parties and if there's any necessary action to be taken. But checking in with the parties involved to ensure that you are moving forward or if there's any new issues that might arise that you look into it further because just because the investigation concludes it doesn't mean that okay you're done and you just put it away. And sometimes
Rebecca Taylor (19:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisseth Zouhbi (19:54)
That, to me, is more important than anything else that you continue to have that follow through.
Rebecca Taylor (20:01)
Yeah, I agree. It's like keeping an eye on something. It's like, even if you can close this case and say, you know, there's no retaliation, can agree, you know, we can agree on that. We did the investigation. It's keeping, you know, following up with that person is important. Staying on that manager is important, making sure that the goals are clear. And, you know, if you were an HR person in this, who's dealing with this type of scenario, is there anything that you'd put in place before this ever happens again?
Lisseth Zouhbi (20:13)
you
Rebecca Taylor (20:30)
So maybe let's say, you know, what could you put in place when an employee is moving underneath a new manager, right? Like what's something you could put in place that could potentially alleviate something like this from happening?
Lisseth Zouhbi (20:41)
Yeah, I would almost create a checklist, right? Recapping the job description, recapping any... ⁓
specific initiatives, anything related to the job and making sure that they understand, you know, how they're going to be valued, where they're going to be measured, understanding the communication expectations between both parties. But more than anything, an opportunity for the employee and the new manager to connect and, you know, get to know each other, to build that foundational rapport, because that is critical, right?
Rebecca Taylor (21:16)
Mm-hmm.
Lisseth Zouhbi (21:18)
And it does not necessarily have to be only when an employee is transitioned to another manager post an investigation, right? I think this needs to happen any time there is any type of transition, even for new hires or promotions. You need to have that time to really onboard that employee properly and give both parties
the opportunity to get to know each other, understand their expectations, their communications, how they want to be recognized, any maybe specific processes that are important to that particular department. These are all fundamental leadership communication tasks that need to happen.
that regardless of why the transition's happening, we need to set sort of the standard of, okay, let me make sure I cover X, Y, and Z, get to know the employee, build that rapport with them, and it could also be part of the culture within the organization, right? Sometimes we lose sight of...
our fundamental values of the organization and how does the manager and the employee embrace that? Is that demonstrated throughout the organization of the department? So those would be some things that I would put in and potentially any other guardrails across the organization or teams about
how people get evaluated, how do you set those cadence to do your check-ins to document performance issues so that you create consistencies in your processes and your policies. Because one of the biggest risks is having inconsistent approaches across the organization.
Rebecca Taylor (23:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yes,
yes, it's true. It's kind of when you treat one person differently than another, then that just opens you up. Even if it's not with malicious intent, right? It just opens you up to more risk than is necessary. And I love your suggestion about almost treating it like you're re-onboarding them. You're helping this person get onboarded with a new manager. And usually, you know, someone's a new hire, 90-day onboarding is pretty standard, even if it's...
Lisseth Zouhbi (23:23)
Yeah.
Rebecca Taylor (23:37)
just checking in and just remembering, hey, this person's still learning and a three month review, that person's still in their onboarding phase. So I think that's, I love that suggestion. Cause I think that's just something that we can all sort of take away from this and say, have an onboarding checklist for someone who's switching managers, regardless of the reason, right? Even if they're just getting promoted and now they have a new boss, it's like, let's help you onboard with each other and reestablish how you work together and what it is that's expected. So I have one final question for you.
And it's for sort of the, you know, for folks who are listening to this who may be faced with a similar scenario or situation, ⁓ what advice would you give an HR leader facing this scenario for the first time?
Lisseth Zouhbi (24:17)
Don't jump to conclusions. Do your due diligence. Make sure you gather all your facts and assess.
Rebecca Taylor (24:20)
Mmm.
Lisseth Zouhbi (24:26)
before making a determination because ⁓ a lot of times we'll find out new facts that will help support whatever decision is made in terms of the resolution of the issue. Because that is really critical to look into all the details, make sure there's no bias in the decisions and that you're approaching this consistently.
across other issues in a similar way and it's following your company policies and procedures.
Rebecca Taylor (25:03)
Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And I think that's solid advice for, you know, for anyone who's kind of trying to figure out how to navigate something like this or similar, right? So thank you for that. And thank you Lisseth, that's so much for being here. Thank you everybody for listening.
Lisseth Zouhbi (25:14)
Thank you.
thank you for the conversation and look, these are real things that are happening in the workplace. There is no one straight solution. You have to really assess it and take it apart and use the skills and knowledge to be able to look through it through the lens of, through the facts and not the emotion side of it.
Rebecca Taylor (25:41)
Yes, yes, you can do this. If you're listening to this and you need help, you can do this. Well, thank you, Lisseth, again, for being here and thank everybody for listening and I hope you all have a good rest of your day. Bye.
Lisseth Zouhbi (25:54)
Bye.