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The Best Ever Podcast with Scott Eblin is your insider’s guide to what it takes to lead at the highest level at work, at home, and in your community. Each week, Scott sits down with remarkable leaders for real, revealing conversations about the mindset shifts, self-management habits, and everyday routines that fuel extraordinary leadership impact. Drawing on his 25 years of experience as a top executive coach, Scott brings a coach’s lens to every episode to help you bridge the gap between intention and action.
Scott - 00:00:10:
Welcome to Best Ever, the show where we explore how effective self-management creates the foundation for positive leadership outcomes. I'm Scott Eblin, and in every episode, I sit down with notable leaders to uncover the routines, mindset shifts, and strategies that have helped them lead at the highest level, and the difference that's made for their organizations, families, and communities. The topic for today's show is the connection between managing yourself effectively and having a strategic vision for that. And how that affects and impacts the strategy of the organization you lead. Generating positive outcomes from that strategy. And we're going to talk today with Vivek Shah, who is somebody who is aces at that. I think he's somebody I used to coach about 20 years ago. And I was impressed with Vivek then as a young 30-something. I'm equally impressed with him now as a young 50-something because he started out with just a nugget of an idea for the business he leads today, Ziff Davis, and has grown it exponentially. And a lot of that comes from the personal vision that he has for the company, but also the personal vision that he has for himself and how he wants to engage with the people inside the company, with potential partners, with potential companies they might integrate with or acquire, with their customer base, all of it. And he is exquisitely aware of the connection between the way he shows up and operates and the outcomes that he generates. I think this is sort of an evergreen topic. I don't think it's ever going to go away. Vivek Shah, welcome to Best Ever.
Vivek - 00:02:03:
It's great to be here, Scott.
Scott - 00:02:04:
Hey, thank you. Thanks so much for being here. So, you know, if people do a cursory Google search on you, which I did, I went beyond cursory, I'll say, they'll find that you're the CEO of Ziff Davis. But if they keep digging, as I did, they'll find there's way more to your story than that. You left time Incorporated as a 36-year-old rising star in 2010. To lead a buyout of Ziff Davis, a media company that operated nine technology websites, including PCMag.com. And so when you announced the deal as a new CEO, you told the New York Times that three aspects of Ziff Davis appealed to you. I don't know if you remember this or not. The company was already digital. It had vertical, specialized content. And it had a large market of people looking to buy something. So that was back in 2010 when you bought Ziff Davis with some private equity backing. I'd love to start by asking you to bring us up to date. Where is Ziff Davis today in terms of scope, earnings, and growth?
Vivek - 00:03:03:
So we might've even exaggerated, I think in 2010, while there were nine properties, there really just was one and it was PCMag.com. So at the time we had, I want to say about 50 employees, um, revenues, a little under 20 million a year. Uh, today the company does close to 1.4 billion of revenue and we have 4,000 employees. So, um, then we're certainly much more than PC mag. We've got dozens of great brands, digital media and internet brands that are all part of the company.
Scott - 00:06:42:
How much of this vast enterprise did you have in mind in 2010 when you took it over?
Vivek - 00:06:49:
Yeah, none of it. I mean, look, you know, when I did that deal. There were very particular reasons. It didn't, none of this, was what I had in mind. It was really I had been at one company, as you know, a great company, but I'd been at one company my entire professional career. I was 36 years old. And I'd gotten some advice, which was, hey, you know, there's such a thing as being maybe somewhere too long. And you start to become potentially unemployable anywhere else. And so I got that advice. I also got the advice that. It's often better to work for some equity, right? So you can work for salary and cash compensation, which is great. And that's what pays the bills. But if you can have an equity interest and put yourself in a position because you've started something or part of buying something that you could be put into kind of an equity position. So I said that that's kind of an interesting thing, but mostly it was, I wanted to prove a certain entrepreneurial skillset. Because while I was at this big company, my job was a very entrepreneurial job for much of it.
Scott - 00:07:58:
Mm-hmm.
Vivek - 00:07:58:
But, you know, I don't know if anyone would have characterized me as an entrepreneur when you're inside of one of the largest media companies in the world, time Warner at the time. And so I felt like for my narrative, taking a risk and doing something like this wasn't actually a risk because it was just changing my story. So I'll be honest, I went into it more thinking about those things, which seemed to be almost a little bit too much about me. But I was thinking about my career. And so the fact that it ended up, becoming this larger platform wasn't how I went into it. Right. And so, um, to be perfectly honest, it's amazing where it's. Know where we've come to but that's not how i was thinking when we started.
Scott - 00:08:40:
This is fabulous because this is exactly why I wanted to talk to you for the Best Ever Podcast. Because you've just laid out or summarized what I've been aware of about you for 20-some years, going on 20 years. And one, I knew for sure that you were a really strong, brilliant business strategist. But I think what you just backed into here was it was really driven by your own personal strategy, right, for yourself. And I want to talk today during our time together about the intersection, really, of those two things. You know, like, how do you manage? How did you manage? How do you manage both present tense and past tense? How have you managed yourself over the years from a strategic perspective so that... You can do everything you've accomplished in the Ziff Davis and in the broader business community. Kind of in the interest of full disclosure, you and I have met, I'm not sure exactly the year, probably 2006 or 2007, maybe 2008, somewhere in that range. And you were one of my, not early, early, but I've been doing this for 24 years now. So, relatively speaking, you were one of my early executive coaching clients when you were president of Fortune magazine. That Time Inc., was the… The thing back then, I remember the lunches we had and the Time-Life Building on 6th Avenue. That's right. It was really fun. And what struck me back then was... I kind of felt like it was the beginning of the end of the big magazine era. And I always felt walking, I was so intrigued by being in the building back then, the Time-Life Building, because it was like this monument to old school journalism. You know, the pictures on the wall, the bound volumes of magazines. Remember all that?
Vivek - 00:10:32:
Oh, yeah.
Scott - 00:10:33:
You lived there every day. Of course you do. How did that job come about? I mean, like you're in your early 30s and you're a big deal at Time Inc., and the president of Fortune magazine. How did you end up there?
Vivek - 00:10:47:
To go back to college. So, cause I really was the only place I worked. So how did I get there to begin with? So I was. Originally planning to go to Singapore. On a Fulbright scholarship to go, I was a political science major. I was really interested in this growth triangle that had existed in, in the region between Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, sort of this free trade and free movement of goods and services, this sort of political economy. And so I was going to go to the National University of Singapore to study for a year.
Scott - 00:11:25:
And you were an undergrad at Tufts, right?
Vivek - 00:11:28:
I was an undergrad at Tufts.
Scott - 00:11:29:
Really strong on international relations.
Vivek - 00:11:32:
Yes.
Scott - 00:11:32:
And that majored in as an undergrad, I guess.
Vivek - 00:11:35:
Yeah, no, that's very much it. And I thought I would probably go into maybe a life of... Foreign policy, potentially think tank, maybe law. So that was kind of where I was mentally. It just so happened that there was an international incident at the time. An American was caught with doing graffiti and was caned, which was the corporal punishment at the time. That basically put a wrench into me going and go into Singapore. And so I needed to pivot pretty quickly. But this is, I'm like four weeks from graduation. And in those days, and probably even today, all of the recruiting was done, right? So, you know, the jobs that I might have been a candidate for. Um, I wasn't and, and they were all closed down, but I went through the process. I was temping, I was doing different things to just, you know, um, earn some money, pay my student loans. And I applied everywhere. I mean, I applied, I have still in my attic, um, a stack this thick. About a inch and a half thick of rejection letters ding letters as they used to be called from every corporate entity you could imagine, right?
Scott - 00:12:54:
Because, this is after you've got a Fulbright to talk about and you're getting rejected all the time?
Vivek - 00:12:57:
I mean, but, you know, no one cares. I didn't go. I mean, so, you know. And so that wasn't impressing anybody. And so, but one company did call me back. And I remember who did. It was Lynn Griffiths. And she was in recruiting at Time Inc., I think the reason why she might have responded to me was that when I was at Topps, I was involved in campus media, you know, on the editorial side and, and had worked with some friends to launch a magazine actually outside of the, uh, the university for the Boston area. And I included a copy of the magazine in my letter. And so it was in a Manila envelope. So I think maybe they were opening Manila envelopes more than, you know, uh, normal ones. And so she called and she said, you know what? You come in. And so that was my first, um, you know, foot in the door came in, it was a great conversation. And she said, you know what? I really think you thrive at this company. And so, um, I want to introduce you to people. It took 18 interviews before I finally got a job offer. And I think a lot of it had to do with people didn't know where to put me. And, you know, I'm 21 years old at the time, right? I'm, you know, a relative baby. And so I got in. But why I tell that whole story is I remember, and I recently read the journal that I kept at the time. And I remember feeling and saying and thinking, I'm never taking this for granted. This did not come easy. This was hard. By the way, it's a full year later. So I didn't start until July of 1995. I graduated in May of 1994. So I said, you know what? Whatever happens, I'm going to work as hard as I can. I'm turning the lights on in the morning. I'm turning the lights on off at night. I'm coming in on the weekends. I am not taking this for granted. I'm never going to make Lynn or anyone who took a chance on me feel badly about that chance. And so I know this sounds like very basic and trite, but I worked really hard. You know, I worked at a pace and at a level that I don't think was common for someone of my age at that time in that place. And so I just worked really hard. I was never, ever the smartest person in the room. And by the way, Time Inc., had some of the smartest people. I mean, I was in awe of the people I was around. I try to learn. I try to absorb. I try to mimic. I just, you know, I was a student for the 15 years I was there. And so when at 32, They asked me to be president of Fortune and money and all the business and finance properties. It was a, it was a big. Deal and a proud moment.
Scott - 00:15:54:
Do you remember what that felt like? Maybe you journaled about it. I'm fascinated that you went back and read your old journal.
Vivek - 00:16:00:
Oh, yeah. No, it was, yeah, it was great. Like, it just, you know, I felt. I just felt great. Like it, it, you know, and again, credit to Time Inc., because in the end, like it. You know, I'm sure there are a lot of other people waiting in line. Who had been there longer.
Scott - 00:16:18:
Mm-hmm.
Vivek - 00:16:19:
But, you know, the decision maker said, look, he's proved himself in many ways. I do joke, while I was 32, I might have been like 52 if you just added up all the hours I-
Scott - 00:16:31:
I knew at that point I could, I could vouch for that.
Vivek - 00:16:34:
You know?
Scott - 00:16:35:
Yeah.
Vivek - 00:16:36:
So that's I mean, you know, that's kind of how that happened. Look, there were there were other epiphanies along the way. Like, I realized that. You know, I would define my job. As the value that I created that, that if someone else was in my job, they might not have been able to do right. Like my value is what is the incremental value? What is the value add? There's the value that, that comes from doing the work that needs to be done. And then there's the value from doing the work that no one thought needed to be done, could be done, should be done and resulted in something. And so I was. Very much an inventor at the company because that I come to realize you can take something that's there and make it better and that's great. But if you invent something that was never there before. That's valued even more greatly inside of
Scott - 00:17:28:
What did you invent that wasn't invented before there? What was the big one?
Vivek - 00:17:32:
I think the biggest idea was probably Fortune Americas, which was the concept of taking Fortune magazine, creating a Spanish language and Portuguese language version of the magazines. But instead of launching magazines, going to newspapers throughout Latin America, cutting deals with those newspapers to essentially have the exclusive right in each country to Fortune Americas that they would print, very important, shifted the cost. They would print and distribute. They would be able to sell advertising locally and we would sell pan regional advertising. And so when we launched Fortune Americas, it was oddly the most widely read and distributed and circulated of any edition of Fortune, including in the United States. So this was something... That I had quote unquote invented. I might've been 24 or 25, you know? And so I think I spent. I spent a couple of years in the region throughout Latin America, traveling on contiguously, like back and forth. I think we cut 26 deals with newspapers. And so, you know, and in Latin America at the time, you know, the people who owned the newspapers were amongst the most powerful people, period. And so I was very early in my career having the opportunity to be with really accomplished people. And so that was another fascinating. So I got used to that early, right? Like being around.
Scott - 00:19:00:
There's a huge theme here that's breaking through for me, and it's about confidence. And it takes a lot of confidence when you're 24 or 25 to get out there to meet with these. Probably. Hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, the inflation today, they'd be billionaires, I'm sure.
Vivek - 00:19:18:
Oh, yeah.
Scott - 00:19:19:
The people that you were meeting with all over Latin America. Were you really confident? Were you faking it till you made it? Where were you on the spectrum?
Vivek - 00:19:28:
Yeah, I, you know. It's a great question. You know, I, when I think a lot, when I think as a parent, I have four children and I think. Often about what I try to imbue. And it's often confidence and empathy because I think they are powerful and important together. I do see myself as, you know, a high empathy, empathetic type of person. Confidence is an interesting one because I will say that There's a line between confidence and I think arrogance. And I, you know, I hope to stay away from that line in my life. So I don't know. I don't, I don't know if it was confidence to be honest. I mean, I, I, I think it's willing to take a risk, maybe taking a little bit of a chance. Maybe willing to bet on myself. So maybe that's confidence, right? I, in none of these endeavors, remember, even though when I talked about Ziff Davis, I didn't go in with saying this, I'm going to kill it. I just said, I'm going to try. And I guess it's, maybe I pick things where, the risk of trying was so low that failure wouldn't have been viewed as anything but risk-taking in a good way. So what I didn't say is I launched Fortune Americas, but I don't think I asked for much capital. We bootstrapped it. So even if it didn't happen, kind of maybe consistent with the Ziff story, I guess people might have said, well, look, he tried something. He didn't blow the company's coffers in his attempt. And then if it works, it's like, wow, this thing worked and it was bootstrapped. And so bootstrapping has been the way I've done a lot of these things. Even the Ziff story is bootstrapping. Like, you know, so if I had a lot of confidence, I probably would have asked for $20 million and, you know, done something bigger. So I don't know if I've got that. You know, that's probably what a truly confident person would have done.
Scott - 00:21:22:
You had a really good sense of risk and reward, though, didn't you? Yes. You know, how much are we willing to risk? What's the potential upside on a relatively small risk, you know?
Vivek - 00:21:32:
Yes. I, and I would say then and now I just love running experiments, trying to like, just do a, you know, the, the, the, the smallest effort to learn something right. Versus spend a lot, do a lot, create a lot of time, lots of plans. Just what can we do to just see if our hypothesis, and in that case, the hypothesis was that Fortune content in a local language that was global business content would be appealing to a fast growing business community in Latin America. And that was true. And that in addition that there were US-based companies looking for an efficient way to reach the entire region. It's hard to market and message to 26 countries at once. So we kind of solved two things and that was the hypothesis, right? And we were able to, I think, test it without spending a lot. And our construct shifted a lot of the risk, honestly, to the newspapers at the time. So I guess, you know, in retrospect, I can package it up and it all sounds very strategic.
Scott - 00:22:42:
Well, strategic instincts, it sounds like to me.
Vivek - 00:22:44:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:22:45:
Right? And so before we leave that part of your life, I want to take you back to someone you used to work with at Time Inc.. You and I spent some time talking about, I think at that point he was the editor-in-chief for all the properties at Time Inc., John Huey. Remember John Huey?
Vivek - 00:23:06:
I love John.
Scott - 00:23:07:
Yeah, amazing. Just such a powerful figure in journalism in the United States. We found a clip. From John, this is like so classic late 90s on the Charlie Rose show. Okay.
Vivek - 00:23:20:
Okay.
Scott - 00:23:20:
And he's talking about the magazine business back then. I'd love to just about 30 seconds. Let's play that. And I'd like to get your reaction on the back side.
John Huey Clip - 00:23:29:
What makes a great editor is the capacity to do what?
Speaker 4 - 00:23:35:
I think it's a fairly, magazine editor is different from a newspaper editor. It's a different game. Newspaper editor, great newspaper editor is different from a great magazine editor. I think magazine editing is a fairly, it's a tricky balancing act. You have to be able, it depends on the frequency of your magazine, but you have to be able to sort of see around corners at any of them. If you're editing a weekly, say time, you really need to be able to think about what people are going to want to know about next week. And in my case, I need to be able to sort of think ahead a few weeks, a couple weeks, and say, what's still going to be alive that's in the, in the... Ferment of what's going on today, what are they still going to care about two weeks from now?
Scott - 00:24:25:
What do you think about that?
Vivek - 00:24:27:
Well, I mean, listen, John, John was the best at what he did and he's right. Look, he understood shelf life. He understood that frequency dictates like relevance. And so, yeah, if you're producing a monthly, it needs to be relevant for a month. Right? It can't be something that within two days is not. And so you're staying away from probably news, right? And you're looking at different types of pieces. And so he understood content exceedingly well. A funny thing about John is he tells this story that when he first met me, he told a colleague, I think I met my future boss. And so he shared that with me fairly early in my career, I think is encouragement as just, Hey, I think you can go places kid. So keep at it. And so he was, I mean, when I talk about. People at the company that were great, that were generous. I have an immense amount of fondness for Time Inc., in the years I was there. It was
Scott - 00:25:29:
a great place. What was the most important thing you learned from John that stayed with you? This hasn't informed your career and your approach since Time.
Vivek - 00:25:38:
You know, the way he would frame things. So just right there, he, he made, um, you know, I think he made something, uh, that is a complicated process, magazine editing, very simple. But I remember when we were at Fortune, he would say, we want to be the best magazine in the world that happens to be about business. And that's just nuance. Not the best business magazine, but the best magazine that happens to be about business. Is a recasting of the situation that everyone can understand immediately and sets like, oh, so we got to just be the best magazine in the world. Right. And not limit ourselves to just a small category. Let's organize it across a very big category. And so that changes the ambition and it probably motivates you in a very different way that you're part of something even bigger. And I think it's really great. Like that kind of thing, trying to frame like the situation you're in. I think about that a lot. Like, you know, what business are we in? What are what does success look like? Where are we like- And trying to do it in a way that has everyone more excited and inspired to be part of it. And so that. And that was something people would repeat. And it's an easy thing to repeat. Mantras are great like that. Like, you know, I believe in them because you remember them. You can repeat them. Everyone else repeats them and then becomes part.
Scott - 00:27:04:
That's the mantra that you say again and again at Ziff Davis.
Vivek - 00:27:07:
You know. There are... There are a number of different ones because, the organization, I mean, it depends. But in the end... For a long time, it was. We're creating a business model for content. Like that's what we're doing. Content and journalism matter. We are seeing then, now, and in the future challenges. Our mission is to create a viable, sustainable business model for content. And I think that helps and resonates where producers of content and salespeople and monetizers and everyone involved sits there and says, okay, there's a bigger goal here. There are even sort of concepts that I try to reinforce. Perfect is the enemy of the good. That might have also been, that's a famous one, but that might have been a Huey one that I then have adopted. And the purpose there is, I think, like, let's just go. We can keep trying. We can keep iterating. Good is good, right? And we don't have to be perfect in anything that we do because the pursuit of perfection sometimes slows us. And in the technology business, you can't be slow. There is a velocity and speed with which things are moving that you've got to kind of keep up. So there are all these little, you know, there are little, little, uh, pithy things that, you know, I talk about three bites of the apple, you know, that, you know, whatever we're in, like, okay, that's the first bite. That's one thing we do. What are the other two bites? Right. And so, um, you know--
Scott - 00:28:43:
We were talking about that back when I knew you and originally three bites of the apple, that's a long one with you, I think.
Vivek - 00:28:48:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:28:49:
So let me, speaking of, you know, your kind of personal approach, I want to shift over the next 10 minutes or so to. As we begin to move toward the close of the conversation, just some personal strategies. We've talked a little bit about this already. But the way I'm really interested in routines or habits that you have in your life that you think enable you, one, to be a really successful business leader. But also, I know you mentioned you have four children. I remember we've talked about that in the past, how important your family life is to you and your kids are. I think you were, thinking of the Yankees games at an early age, if I remember right.
Vivek - 00:29:29:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:29:29:
Um, So I just want to hear, the way I think about routines, Vivek, is I think about them in four buckets. Physical routines, mental routines that help keep you kind of mentally acute and sharp. Relational routines, the way you manage your relationships and routines that help with that. And then spiritual routines that keep you connected with your sense of purpose and things like that. Any of those four resonate with you more than others?
Vivek - 00:29:56:
I think they all do. We all have roles, right? And so CEO of a company, that's a role. A father of four children, that's a role. A husband to an amazing wife, that's a role. A son to parents who thankfully are still with us. It's a role, a brother, brother-in-law, you know, son-in-law, friend. These are all things that I value each, try to be great at each. Don't confuse one with the other, you know, and don't bring, maybe the feelings of one into another and I try to keep them, you know, you know, I try not to let. Things that may be challenging in business affect my role as a father, right? And, and vice versa and all that kind of stuff. You know, the family roles that I talked about are at the top of the list, right? That that's what we're all here for, in my opinion. And, and that can't be put below. And I am very proud of the fact that that's never been subjugated in my, in, in my experience. And that's hopefully, and that's, you know, that's a privilege, right? That's not a lot of people don't always have that choice, you know, like things happen that force them, uh, to, to, to re maybe jigger that, but I've been lucky that way. So I just, I think about those roles and how can I be the best in those roles? Physically, I'm a big squash player, so that's something I enjoy doing. And for those who don't know the sport, it's an amazing sport because it's one that is physically demanding. It is one that is mentally taxing. There's just a lot of thought that goes into it. It's like chess on a court, and you have to be thinking multiple moves ahead. And so I love the game, and it's something my boys play, and my youngest daughter is now playing. I've been involved with, and it's a great thing. So squash is a great outlet for me.
Scott - 00:31:56:
I'm just going to wrap for a second. I talk a lot with my clients and write a lot about this, and the writing that I do is that I think some routines can be high leverage. And it sounds like squash is a really high leverage routine for you because you're getting the physical and the mental benefits. You're also getting the relational benefits, right, because you brought your kids into it. And that's a pretty cool example of a high leverage routine.
Vivek - 00:32:20:
It is, and it's fun, and it's actually a fun game to play with someone. You know, you're in a box together. Right?
Scott - 00:32:28:
Yeah.
Vivek - 00:32:29:
You're, you're, you're actually you're not, you know, it's it's kind of an interesting dynamic. I don't know how many other games are quite like that.
Scott - 00:32:36:
Do you see a connection between squash, and your strategic acumen?
Vivek - 00:32:42:
No, because my squash game is not good enough.
Scott - 00:32:46:
Should there be a connection?
Vivek - 00:32:48:
I need to be a better squash player to connect the two. I think I may be better practitioner of business than I have of squash, but, you know, there's still time for me.
Scott - 00:33:00:
Yeah, definitely. So physical is squash for you. And I'm... I was, going to ask you this at the end. I'll ask you now. Why is it that 15 years or so after we worked together, you look pretty much the same and I look like an old man? What are you doing physically in addition to squash that's keeping you healthy? And, you know, there's a big mind-body connection, obviously.
Vivek - 00:33:29:
Yeah. Well, maybe the mental part of this, which I would say the other thing that I do, that I try to do in the context of my life and my business and my family and all these pieces. Is maintain proportionality. And I stress this all the time. You can't, you know, you can't make small things big. Just can't. And by the way, and it's like the old, the, the, there's a famous book by this and nearly everything is small.
Scott - 00:34:00:
Mm-hmm. Tell us about the small stuff, right?
Vivek - 00:34:02:
Right?
Scott - 00:34:02:
Yeah.
Vivek - 00:34:03:
I mean, it's true. And so you have to look at things in a broader context, which I do. And so, you know, people tell me here I take bad news well. It's not that I like bad news. It's that in the end, I don't know if I characterize it as bad as others might, because to me it's, there's real bad news in the world.
Scott - 00:34:25:
Mm-hmm.
Vivek - 00:34:26:
You know? You know, a weak sales number is really not one of them. Like if you, you know, inside of one company of many, it's like, I just, I think maintaining proportionality is so, so important. And I- It's hard. I think, you know, I, I see it on athletic fields and at schools and the pressure kids are under, like I see it with kids, right? Like. Everything feels... So, so big, so immense. I think that's hard to deal with mentally if that's how you go through life.
Scott - 00:35:02:
You remind me of, there's a book that Suzy Welch, who was married to Jack Welch and was editor of the Harvard Business Review for a number of years. She wrote a book several years ago called 10-10-10. And the premise was basically, will this, saying, will this event matter 10 days from now, 10 weeks, 10 months from now, or 10 years from now? Right. It's kind of the proportionality. Do you have a rubric or a framework that you, a mantra, you used that word earlier, that you keep in mind? To just check yourself on how much something actually matters.
Vivek - 00:35:38:
You know, I don't, but I may use this 10-ton-ton because it sounds pretty good. It's a great way to think about it. No, I mean, listen, I think in the end, it's more, I think it's less about categorizing and it's more about just saying. But in the end, keep all of these things in context. They'll work out, give it time and space. You're going to get to a solution and all is not lost. I don't get to a sense of hopelessness. I think that's the thing. It's like not getting to this point of there's no hope, right? For whatever it is. And that's a, you know, you want to stay away. You don't want to get anywhere close to that zone. I think in, in anything you do, you don't want to think. You know, you look in sports, right? I mean, the, the great ones it's not over until it's over. Right. It's not lost and they'll push and they'll try and they'll carve and they're not out of it. And they'll leave the last point behind. The last point does not influence the next point. Short memories, you know, Mariano Rivera, the Yankee, great. I mean, probably the best at this. He could blow a game next game. It was like it never happened. And I just think he had, he maintained proportionality. He's like, okay, there's always another game.
Scott - 00:36:51:
Yeah.
Vivek - 00:36:51:
And I'll win the next one.
Scott - 00:36:53:
You're reminding me of so many things I think about that there's a definition of leadership that I love. And I think it came from Napoleon that a leader's job is basically two things. The first is to define reality. And the second is to offer hope. And, you know, when you talk about there's always another play, you know, that's the part. If you think about the way you parent, the way you lead a business, the way you engage with the nonprofits you're involved in. How do you balance the ratio of reality and hope? Like, how do you think about that?
Vivek - 00:37:32:
You try to connect the two, right? So it's not a balance. It's that if we understand the current state and are clear-eyed about it and then have an optimistic, productive view of where we can go, you've connected the two, right? And so they're not disconnected. You know, hope is a function of the present state, right? So the future state is going to be a function of this. And so how do you connect that and give people the view towards, okay, it can be better. And that's what people want. They just want better, right? That's ultimate. We don't want worse. We want better. And then we can debate how much better and when better, but we want better. And so to me, if you can be clear on where we are and that there are paths to better and here's what we're going to need to do, I think people get it. And this has been important in our business because we haven't talked about this, but the truth of the matter is that while I came out of the magazine business that was under an enormous amount of pressure from the internet and digital forces, we are in a place now where you have all sorts of pressures. You have AI pressures and you have the oligopoly and advertising, you know, a few large companies that seem to be, you know, hoovering in.
Scott - 00:38:45:
And even more of that coming up, right?
Vivek - 00:38:47:
You know, and so you have to carve out for, and as you know, many journalism-oriented organizations are not doing well. And so, you know, we've been bucking the trend and we've done well, but we have not operated in what I would call an easy environment. So this has been, you know, a challenging environment for us in which to operate. And this, the thing we're talking about right now is actually very relevant, which is, you know, we are winning and can win and will continue to win because that's what ultimately I think, most people want. I think they want to be part of a winning organization, a team.
Scott - 00:39:24:
Mm-hmm. You know, when I listen to everything you're sharing, it sounds completely authentic. I mean, you come across completely authentic. And I could understand how somebody listening to us could think, gosh, has this guy ever had a setback? Has his trajectory just been straight up and to the right with no variation. When have you had a setback and what do you do to get yourself back on track when you have a setback?
Vivek - 00:39:53:
Well, listen, I think the first setback was where it all started, right? I thought I was going to Singapore and all that. And that was hard for me. You know, I was depressed. I mean, if, you know, at the time you probably, I didn't, but, you know, and I was rereading some of my notes. I'm like, Ooh, you know what? I wasn't in a great place, right? It was hard because I'd just gone to this expensive college and, you know, we didn't come from, you know, we didn't have the means of taking these loans and like what, how did this happen? Right. So it very much was informing. So, you know, there've been other things, but it was the thing that set me down a very clear path of where I, you know, felt like I needed to be, which to this day, I don't take any job, any responsibility for granted.
Scott - 00:40:35:
I love that.
Vivek - 00:40:36:
I don't. Not even, not even for a second. And I will tell you when we did the Ziff deal, everyone thought I was bananas and nuts. And this was a bad career move and it was risky. And I was putting my own money in it and, you know, just, you know, at twins. And so we had three under two, like it was not, it, it worked out, but at the time it felt.
Scott - 00:41:01:
I've heard a lot of people didn't even understand what you were trying to do back then, did they?
Vivek - 00:41:04:
No.
Scott - 00:41:05:
Yeah.
Vivek - 00:41:06:
No.
Scott - 00:41:06:
And so you've had this vision that was clear to you at some level, obviously, or you wouldn't be doing it. Probably I would guess 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10. I don't know what the ratio is, but probably the majority of the people that you were talking with are about this thing. Oh my gosh, what are you doing, right? Adieu. How do you manage yourself when you've got a vision that's clear to you? You know, you're getting a lot of pushback that, oh my gosh, that's not the right, not a great idea or nothing for you.
Vivek - 00:41:36:
Well, I think you want to hear why it's not a great idea because you'll learn from it and you'll try to manage those. Those could be the obstacles. Those could be the hurdles. So you don't want to dismiss that. You want to say, okay, but why, what do you think's wrong? Where do you think this is not going to work? And, and, and then maybe even try to get them to say, all well, to play devil's advocate, get the other side of that. How would you make it work? So I think anyone that's interested in, in offering you an opinion about anything you're going to do, take the opinion, but, you know, go deeper and, and, and, and, and understand things. And so, you know, I was told early that, you know, capital was going to be hard and, and, you know, I'd never raised capital and that kind of thing. And so when I went to do the Ziff deal, the way I did it was I found the asset. That we wanted to buy and then went to seek money. Not I went to money and say, Hey, help me do something. Right. Like, so there was just an ordering thing. So as you heard critics, one critic and I, that was because a critic told me this actually, when I first started this process, I was first talking to private equity firms and look, here's who I am. I'm interested. I've got this thesis around taking a magazine business and turning it into digital back me. And then one person said to me, he's like, listen, no one's going to tell you this. I'm going to tell you this. You're a dime a dozen. There's nothing unique. What would be unique is if you came in here and showed me something I hadn't seen before, an actual deal, then we could talk about the deal and by extension, you and what you would do with it. And that was great advice, right? Like it was, I would have gone on probably meeting lots of private equity people and not having anyone tell me that and maybe not get anywhere. And he said, go find a deal. Spend your time, find a deal, then come call us. And he was right because then the conversation switched. It's like, oh, I've got a deal. Oh, you do? Tell me about it. How'd you find it? Like that's unique. That's different. And that matches to their needs, not mine. And then there was never a question of who's going to run it. I brought the deal. It's my deal. So that that's an example of where if you, you know, good critics are actually going to tell you something that'll allow you to adjust. And if they don't, I think you can, you know, interrogate a little bit to get to, well, why do they think this isn't a great idea?
Scott - 00:43:49:
Yeah. Perfect. So I've got three questions I want to wrap up with. One is kind of a circle back question, and then two to kind of close us out. The circle back question, you mentioned this twice now, once towards the beginning of the conversation and just a few minutes ago when I was asking about setbacks. Journal, or at least you used to journal, and you've kept your journals. And so... I'm intrigued by what prompted you to go back and read old journals from whatever year that was, 2007 or 2008 or thereabouts.
Vivek - 00:44:19:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:44:19:
And what role has journaling played in informing your personal perspective over the years, just what are the benefits been of that to you?
Vivek - 00:44:29:
Yeah, no. So. That The reason I was keeping a journal, I think at the time, and I had, I've been inconsistent with it, so I don't want to position myself as being. Devoted to it. But I think in moments where I feel like I needed to document my state, my feeling, you know, it was just, you know, at that time coming out of college, you know, not having a job, not having something to do, I felt like I needed to, to, to chronicle. And the reason I went back to it was I now have children entering that phase of life. And reminding myself of what it was like then. So that maybe I can be better as a supporter and as a father and didn't do that. So I really just wanted to go back to what was the mind of the 21-year-old version of me? When I looked at it, I was like, oh, that was a tough time for me. But it also then had the benefit of just, again, reminding me of how lucky I am and all this great stuff that I get to do. I talk a lot about just being lucky because when I go back to other points where I jotted things down. Luck is such a big part of this. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's a little unsettling, to be honest, right? And I just go through my life about how moments just broke my way. It had nothing to do with anything I did. Well-
Scott - 00:45:51:
The classic kind of hackneyed definition of luck is when preparation meets opportunity, right? I mean, does that apply to you?
Vivek - 00:46:00:
I mean, I think there's a little bit of luck is the residue of design. So there's some design, right? But, but again, I, the reason why I express the luck piece so much is that it's another reminder for me, you know, it's just another way. It keeps you grounded, humble. You know, there's, you know, you're not, I'm not in this job because I was the best person for this job. Uh-huh. That's not true.
Scott - 00:46:23:
Yeah, yeah.
Vivek - 00:46:24:
It's just not.
Scott - 00:46:26:
Fair enough. So your reflection on going back to your journals, because your kids are now the age you were when you were journaling those pages. Kind of leads to the next to last question, which is, what's your one best piece of advice for anybody listening who is interested in being a more effective strategist, either at a personal level, organizational level? Just one thing you've learned about being strategic that you would pass on to the listener.
Vivek - 00:46:58:
Yeah, so I think for me, it's all about pattern recognition. So what I've done well in business is I expose myself to lots of things in and outside of business, and then I look for patterns. And I can see things in one place that have absolutely, seemingly nothing to do with my business and say, well, wait a minute, that dynamic actually can play itself here. So it's two things. It's being curious and learning as much as you can. And right now, this is the age for the curious. I mean, with AI and the potential to access knowledge, curiosity will get rewarded. So be hyper and ultra curious. And then recognize that there are patterns. And so look for the patterns that you could say, wow, well, how can that business connect here? I've always tried to understand how something works from a business point of view. More precisely, how does this make money? I'm always fascinated by this. Like, how does that make money? And when you learn how that makes money, you may say, well, you know what? That can make me money here. And so that has been really helpful for me. So I love to read. I love to study. I just I love to hear about things. Right. I like, well, how does that work? And what do you do here? And tell me about your business. And and so if you're that kind of person and you'd be amazed how much people would love to talk about their businesses. They'll talk to you about it. If you show curiosity, they're going to talk to you about it and you're going to learn something.
Scott - 00:48:42:
Follow-up question that I'm going to sneak in. Does pattern recognition apply to parenting as well?
Vivek - 00:48:48:
It may, you know, it's hard, right? Like it's, you know, with, with, with parenting, I find it's, I mean, kids are different and, and, and situations are different and what works with one may not work with another. And then, you know, I'm careful not to bring, you know, the rules of business to the rules of the house. You know, you certainly don't want to be CEO in the house like that. That's not good. That doesn't work.
Scott - 00:49:15:
Yeah. You don't have shareholders there. You have stakeholders, not shareholders.
Vivek - 00:49:20:
That's right.
Scott - 00:49:21:
Yeah. Very good. So last question is kind of a fun one that we're going to ask everybody on the show. What is in your ears lately? What are you listening to that's in your ears?
Vivek - 00:49:36:
You know, I've been listening to a bunch of podcasts. All across the board, mostly media business, you know, sort of like, you know, Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. Peter Kafka just has a new podcast. I listen to his. So I've been listening to those. There's been a – I'm a huge REM fan. And so there's been a ongoing deep podcast on REM.
Scott - 00:50:19:
What's the name of that?
Vivek - 00:50:21:
I've got to look it up. I just know it as my REM podcast here. It's right here in my library. It's called A Music Podcast About REM.
Scott - 00:50:37:
That's some brilliant branding right there.
Vivek - 00:50:40:
I think it's from a larger podcast called What Is Music. So I think they do What Is Music, and they've just done a series on REM, but they go deep. Deep, deep. So, you know, that kind of stuff.
Scott - 00:50:53:
All right, cool. So do you like Stevie Wonder?
Vivek - 00:50:56:
I do.
Scott - 00:50:57:
The Wonders Stevie. Have you listened to that?
Vivek - 00:51:00:
No.
Scott - 00:51:00:
It's by Wesley Morris, the cultural critic for the New York Times.
Vivek - 00:51:04:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:51:05:
And it's about the golden era of Stevie Wonder, like Talking Book and Songs in the Key of Life and those albums. It is fascinating. It's fascinating.
Vivek - 00:51:16:
I got to add that to my...
Scott - 00:51:18:
When you're done with REM, you can move on, Stevie.
Vivek - 00:51:20:
Yeah, exactly.
Scott - 00:51:21:
That's my gift to you for talking to me for now.
Vivek - 00:51:23:
Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate it.
Scott - 00:51:27:
Vivek, this has been such a pleasure. One, to catch up with you, but two, just to learn from you. And, uh, I appreciate so much you sharing your wisdom and your experience with me and with our listeners and, uh, wish you all.
Vivek - 00:51:40:
I can't let us end without saying that you didn't ask this. I was hoping you would, but I learned a lot from you as my coach. Um, and I still, I remember a lot of things from that, but, but really I remember we would be, you join me in meetings, right. And, and, and you would talk about, you know, just leave some oxygen in the room. There were things there that, you know, were really helpful, like, you know, almost holding back what you don't do. Matters as much as what you do do when you do speak and don't speak and understanding that, which was super helpful to me then. And I, I still use today.
Scott - 00:52:20:
That is so generous and gracious of you to say that. Thank you. I can't tell you how much it means to me to hear that.
Vivek - 00:52:26:
It was, it was, and I, by the way, talk about our coaching experience when I encourage individuals here to think about having a coach and how it can be helpful because, you know, there are times people think that might be a criticism and it's certainly not actually advocating and saying, hey, we see a lot here and, and, uh, this is an investment in you.
Scott - 00:52:48:
Perfect. And investment in you. That's a great way to end. So thank you so much.
Vivek - 00:52:54:
Thanks, Scott.
Scott - 00:52:54:
It's been a pleasure and enjoyed to talk with you again. Thank you.
Vivek - 00:52:57:
Likewise.
Scott - 00:53:05:
So why are we spending time today talking about the connection between self-management and... Organizational strategy. That seems like a weird thing to talk about. Well, let me tell a story about why I think it's important and kind of based on personal experience. Way back when, when my wife and I had young boys, they're much older now, we had the crazy life that so many young adults have. You know, I had a big corporate job that was highly demanding, tons of travel. It kind of felt like I was in it for my head most of the time. Diane was running a small business, and there's everything that goes along with being parents and trying to figure out your financial situation. You're always kind of like counting the pennies and all of that. Just all of it. You know, family dynamics outside of the nuclear family, you name it. And we realized, Diane and I did, that we needed to pull up. We needed to pull up. Periodically and just say, how are we doing here? You know, and what are we doing? Why are we doing it? What are we hoping to generate in terms of outcomes? And we came up with a process for ourselves. It was really a one-page personal planning tool called the LifeGPS. And Roll the tape forward 25 years. We have taken a personal planning retreat every fall. Diane and I have for two to three days. To just talk about our life GPS, which sounds incredibly geeky. That's not all we do. One year we went to a Ravens game and... You know, other years we've been at the beach. I mean, we have some fun. We're not total planning geeks. But that process of stepping back and basically asking ourselves and each other and comparing our notes between ourselves. Around three questions. How are we when we're at our best, each of us individually and as a couple? What are the routines, physical, mental, relational, spiritual, that help us be at our best? And then what outcomes are we trying to generate? At home, at work, and in the community. Having all that on one page, just like the Google Maps app on your phone, You know, it's coordinated against the latitude and longitude of wherever you are as a reference point. So it can recalculate your route when you need to and get you where you want to go. That OnePageLife GPS is a reference point. You know, we just pull it out, certainly every fall, but each of us a couple of times a week probably, and ask ourselves, how are we doing? Where are we now? What do we need to adjust? What's working well? Great. Double down on that. Are the outcomes what we thought they would be? Where do we need to adjust maybe to get to the picture that we had in mind? I've shared this with clients over the years with thousands of readers at this point and hundreds of clients actually just like two days ago. I was in Minneapolis working with the CEO that I coach and we spent a couple of hours talking about his GPS for this year. Because how he shows up, how I show up, how you show up. Individually is completely predictive of the outcomes you're going to get organizationally. And if you're showing up at your best, if you're showing it like. For me, at my best, I'm calm, I'm clear, I'm connected. I'm loving, I'm creative, and I'm fun. Okay, those are my words. And that's a reference point for me. Am I showing up that way or not? If I am showing up that way, I'm probably going to get better outcomes with my clients. I'm going to get better outcomes with the team that I work with. And that's borne out. And the same thing has borne out for my clients over the years. If you found today's conversation valuable, be sure to follow Best Ever on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review and a comment on this episode. I want to know what's landing with you and your engagement really helps others discover the show. And if you're looking for more on how self-management fuels lasting leadership impact, connect with me through eblingroup.com. I've learned it takes a village to make a podcast. Thanks to executive producer, Cee Cee Huffman and editor Mark Meyer, both of WaveStream Media. And thanks to my other team members, Lindsey Russell, Mary Motes, Sophia Shum, and Diane Eblin. Best Ever is a production of the Eblin Group. Thanks for listening to Best Ever. And until next time, keep taking those small steps that lead to your Best Ever outcomes.