The WP Minute+

Zack Katz of GravityKit & TrustedLogin joins the show to talk about running multiple products in the WordPress space.

The conversation explores the ups-and-downs of doing a product rebrand, plus, what it's like to build a business in the Gravity Forms (and WordPress!) ecosystem. Don't miss this episode.
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What is The WP Minute+?

For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.

[00:00:00] Matt: Why did you go from Gravity View to Gravity Kit?

[00:00:03] Zack: Well, we, we had a problem from essentially the first couple of months of Gravity View the product and the company where it was, the product was named Gravity View and the company was named Gravity View. And the second we released our second product, it became a problem. And we decided that, uh, some of our longtime customers, uh, years and years, they, they love Gravity View and they just didn't know about all these other add-ons that we had out there that would've made their lives so much simpler.

[00:00:33] So they contacted support and they said, oh, I wish you all did this. And we were shocked and dismayed to learn that they didn't know that we do do that. It's just. And an add-on that they didn't know about. So we decided to rebrand and we went through a bunch of different options and Gravity Kit sounded fun and, and represented that you're really building out a toolkit of, of solutions.

[00:00:55] And, uh, our add-ons turned gravity forms into an app builder and, uh, really the center of a website's, uh, powerful functionality.

[00:01:08] Matt: I remember at one point we were. Competitors, sort of . Uh, I was building conductor at the time, which, uh, its greatest downfall was investing in the customizer. We'll save that for

[00:01:23] We'll save that for another, uh, discussion. But the idea behind Conductor, and I'm sure maybe even some of the stuff you saw in the early days with Gravity View was I came from the Dral world. Droople had ck and. Extremely powerful made me feel like a developer without having to know to know code. It was no code before, no code existed.

[00:01:45] I think at least the phrase, uh, is that something you've really latched onto? Is that empowerment that your tools give to to users? Do you see that in your customers or do you have customers who are like hardcore developers who are like, you know what, I just don't wanna waste my time writing code for this stuff.

[00:02:05] I can just use your

[00:02:05] Zack: tool. Absolutely. We, we hear from our customers all the time, uh, and it's so nice to hear from people to hear how they're using things. But, uh, one of our customers, uh, built their M v MVP product for an SEO agency connecting application like a directory, but it connects, it, it, you build quotes, you do all sorts of stuff.

[00:02:28] He built his product to get to, uh, $1 million, uh, yearly revenue using gravity. and our other add-ons. And he said, okay, well now that I've built that, now I can actually, you know, build a, uh, the custom application that we probably need because we've grown past the capabilities of powering it. But a million dollars a year based on gravity view is so cool.

[00:02:52] And we, we hear from schools, we hear from enterprise people, we hear from like, uh, builders who, [00:03:00] uh, like this one person does custom. Wood carving, uh, submissions. And he uses the gravity view, uh, processes to, uh, accept the quote, review it, let update customers, let them know when the product is ready, you know, build out the shipping, uh, information, all of that in Gravity view and our, and our other add-ons.

[00:03:22] And it's really, it's, it's really rewarding to hear. people use your product in ways that help themselves. And it's 30,000 sites. We just passed running Gravity View or Running Gravity Kit products, not just Gravity view. And that's, that's a small, like that's a small, medium sized town. Every one of the people in the town is doing something cool with Gravity view and Gravity kit and.

[00:03:48] That's really awesome to know.

[00:03:50] Matt: You're using it in the ecosystem of gravity forms. Side note, I'm an employee of Gravity Forms, and I'm always curious about that relationship in any space. I'm more curious about gravity forms in the WordPress sandbox, we're all playing in the larger sandbox that is WordPress.

[00:04:10] Positives and negatives about running in the Gravity Forms sandbox for you? What are the things that you are really happy about? What are the things that keep you up at night?

[00:04:20] Zack: Um, I'm really pleased overall with the experience of being a Gravity Forms developer. I've been a Gravity Forms developer since 2011, maybe.

[00:04:33] I don't know. It's been a long time. It, I was, uh, pretty much a full-time gravity forms add-on developer, uh, for free add-ons that I posted to the repo on uh, And I shared for free, um, because I used it as a way to get affiliate revenue and that paid for my bills. Uh, my wife had a full-time job, so I paid for my bills.

[00:04:55] It didn't pay for our bills. , um, Developing add-ons for free was a great start. Um, but then we came formalized and, uh, with Gravity view and they were very welcoming and supportive and I was really excited. Like Carl Hancock, one of the co-founders Gravity Forms, uh, tweeted about Gravity View and that really cemented that it was a real thing for me.

[00:05:22] Uh, it turned it from a hobby into a business. I, uh, I've found very, very, a lot of support from the Gravity Forms team. Uh, they have a shared Slack channel for certified developers, which is what we are. Uh, there are a limited number of certified developers and we all get what we, they call it internally, uh, second party instead of third party.

[00:05:44] We're not third party. We're a little closer than that, but we're not first party. So I found the ecosystem to be very supportive in terms of things that keep me up at night. You know, competitors are out there and we [00:06:00] do our best to stay, uh, abreast of everything. But, you know, if, if somebody comes on that does a better job at what we do, then we have a challenge to meet that.

[00:06:10] And we're, we're a team of five people and we're working every day of the week to make our product great. And, uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm resting easier than I was five years ago, even just. , uh, I know that we're doing our best and that our customers love our products.

[00:06:30] Matt: But now you have a marketing lead. You used to do marketing a hundred percent of the time. Emory used to come up with, uh, creative songs. It wasn't you in the video, right? You, you had a cameo, but you had somebody else in the video like singing the song. You did all these crazy things. Just talk to me about your thought process on marketing, maybe back then versus now, and how you think of it.

[00:06:51] Zack: You know, it feels like it was a lot easier to surprise people. Uh, and

[00:06:57] Matt: TikTok came along and you're like, I can't dance came along.

[00:06:59] Zack: I can't dance, uh, I can't talk . Anyway, the, uh, yeah, I, I did, I thought that that would be an interesting marketing, uh, concept was to do the unexpected and put it out there and it really worked.

[00:07:12] Um, but as time has gone on and Gravity Kit has become more profession, Gravity forms is more like all of the work. Press ecosystem is more professional now and hiring random people. Like the song you're talking about is Jonathan Mann song A Day, man, he's world record holder for writing a song every day.

[00:07:29] He's, he's awesome. I love his music. His videos are so much fun. Um, we've done a lot of work with him, but I think that the scene has changed and the expectation of professionalism has kind of outweighed. The whimsy a little bit. We've had to tone it down a little bit. Uh, and we've kind of decided to pivot a small amount to go more professional and to communicate with people in a more business-centric way that, that expresses our core value to them.

[00:08:00] And, uh, instead of saying, Hey, we have a cute astronaut friend that his named Floaty. Yeah. Um, it. A delicate balance. And Casey, our, our, uh, marketing coordinator and and I were talking today and trying to figure out that balance because we don't wanna lose the lightheartedness, but we also need to make sure that in that, uh, business is still being transacted and people don't look at it and say, oh, that's unprofessional.

[00:08:28] They look at him the same. That's professional with a twist.

[00:08:33] Matt: Probably, I mean, I'll, I'll try to illustrate this picture and maybe, uh, and you can kind of fill in the, fill in the gaps here. But probably back then when you started Gravity View, you just had, you know, whatever freelancers, WordPress, hobbyists, maybe sort of buying into this product.

[00:08:48] But now since you've survived the test of time, uh, uh, in the business world up until this, , you've probably seen corporations knocking on your door and people wanting to buy it [00:09:00] for a large organization. And it's the, the pre-sales expectation is a thing now. Like you have to maybe, you know, fill out some documents and some vendor requests and payment portals.

[00:09:13] Uh, all of that stuff, um, reminds me of my days at, uh, at Page Lee. But, uh, because you've stuck a stuck around and everything has matured, you're probably seeing a different type of customer. These.

[00:09:23] Zack: Yeah, we just had a customer, uh, purchase order request for a provider who resells it to an, a government defense contractor who then resells it to classified.

[00:09:34] We are not allowed to know who this person is that's actually gonna be using it, and that's cool, but it also, uh, represents a change in our clientele. .

[00:09:43] Matt: When you see that opportunity, cuz this is something, I know this is talked about a lot in the WordPress business space, but um, there are folks who will never touch enterprise.

[00:09:52] Because of the red tape, because of the paperwork. And then there's others that kind of lean into it and be like, yeah, we, we have an enterprise path that you can go down, uh, you know, Mr. Or Mrs. Customer, uh, if you want that enterprise path, it becomes a annual license app. I don't know. $10,000 a year for us to support the product.

[00:10:12] And a lot of people hearing that might be like, oh my God, how could you ever charge that much for a plugin? But really it's about the admin, uh, the support and uh, just the ti sheer time you have to invest in that client. Do you do anything like that or do you still offer up retail pricing? And what are your general thoughts about supporting an enterprise, uh,

[00:10:29] Zack: customer?

[00:10:30] We currently only support retail pricing. Uh, I, we've thought about it and it's a decision so far for us to prioritize, um, our lifestyles really well. A lot of the value of working at Gravity Kit is we, we try to not have pressure , we don't have deadlines, uh, we don't have, um, we don't have hard deadlines.

[00:10:55] We, we set goals for, you know, release schedules and. But I said I, you know, I say that the team and the team really values that. When you work with Gravity Kit, the point is that we are humans. We are working together as a team to help provide value to people, and that's, the job is not paramount. What's paramount is taking care of ourselves so that we can best serve our customer.

[00:11:21] So I like to think that the stress of having a government contract or, uh, like having a, a service level agreement where like, I have to respond or my team has to respond in 30 minutes, or we lose, or something happens that's just so stressful and that would change how we feel about work. And I don't, I'm not super comfortable about that.

[00:11:45] Um, but maybe there is a balance that we could, we could strike. When

[00:11:50] Matt: I was listening to you on the WP Product Talk podcast, which you can find at the WP minute, plus feed where this is, where this episode will be going out, you can just go to the [00:12:00] wp to get access to it. I heard you talk about, I'll say challenges, for trusted login.

[00:12:09] talk to me about running two. Totally different products. , uh, one, uh, suite of products being, a collection, of add-ons that help enhance the experience of Gravity Forms, and then trusted login, which doesn't need gravity forms at all. Talk to me about that.

[00:12:30] Zack: So, trusted Login, uh, is a, a software development kit that you can embed into your plugin or you can run standalone if you're an agency or something like that.

[00:12:41] Uh, it adds a grant support access functionality to the customer's website so that when they're using their plug your plugin and they need some help, they can click this link and it automatically securely encrypts access, sends it to you in a way that is encrypted and safe. And it's not like emailing credentials back and forth.

[00:13:00] It auto expires. It's a limited capabilities. Um, there's all sorts of really cool stuff that's built into it. So we built it for ourselves to scratch our own itch. Every darn time we asked for admin credentials, a little part of us died inside. Cause , we didn't want to have to do that to help debug a problem.

[00:13:20] And uh, so we Is that cuz you

[00:13:22] Matt: found most customer passwords to be like pony, Popsicle ?

[00:13:27] Zack: Well it even worse. Yes. And the going in years later and seeing a ticket and being like, oh geez, they granted us. Is this still active? Did we forget to, to delete our account? And it's still active, it's still administrator, it's such a security hole, and there had to be a different way and there wasn't a different way.

[00:13:48] Uh, there were links that, uh, if you click a link, it automatically logs you in. And those links are essentially a password. So if somebody shares that link and that link gets out there, you've given a password to everybody who has it. So trusted login, we use access. And those keys can be shared on

[00:14:08] They are not passwords. Uh, so any plugin developer on who, who has had problems providing support for a plugin where you say, I need admin to access, but you don't like know what to do, trust to login is the solution for that. So we built a to scratch our own itch. Um, And we've been running it for about a year now.

[00:14:32] Uh, and it's been great. It's been so helpful for support that it kind of took a back seat for moving it forward. So once it got good enough for us, it was hard to get to the next push of saying, okay, let's get it ready for, uh, for other people to use, which is obviously it's a little higher bar. And, uh, we're starting to do that now and I'm, I'm really glad to be getting back into it.

[00:14:55] Uh, I've just added some really nice Zapier integration stuff where, [00:15:00] uh, it automatically, if, if somebody, if the customer consents, uh, they can share the site health information automatically. So when somebody grants access, it gets added to their support ticket immediately. No need to copy and paste information or anything.

[00:15:15] Matt: I see that as two totally different endeavors. One might argue when you put 'em side by side, the gravity kit is much easier to at least formulate a plan for because you kind of know the market. You know it integrates into gravity forms.

[00:15:31] You can tar gravity forms customers, you can co-op with, uh, with gravity forms, uh, marketing, et cetera. This one seems like you'd have to do maybe more outreach, uh, marketing, maybe go to, I don't know, security. Companies like S Securi or ithe security, um, all the, these other types of like security firms in, in WordPress.

[00:15:56] But I feel like the in the innate reaction from those people are, whoa, whoa, whoa, , what's this like? Yes, it's called Trusted login, but do we trust it? And then it just seems like a whole other, uh, uh, mountain to climb. What are your thoughts on marketing that?

[00:16:11] Zack: We had a marketing plan that was really nicely fleshed out.

[00:16:15] That involved me going to all sorts of word camps and, uh, meeting with people one-on-one, getting integrated, uh, doing that stuff. Um, and that was in February, 2020, huh? and . There were no word camps for a little while after that. Yeah. And. I still think that that's a good go-to-market strategy cuz we're still going to market.

[00:16:38] But, uh,

[00:16:39] Matt: and, and knowing you, like you were ready to ship, like cakes that were shaped like locks and you were gonna jump out of it at the , at the word camp, and then you're like, oh, I guess, I guess that's not gonna happen.

[00:16:49] Zack: Yeah, we definitely had some, uh, interesting swag. I'm not sure it involved, uh, me and a cake, but something, something similarly groundbreaking,

[00:17:00] Matt: So I when, now that you think about going back into the product, you're refining it a little bit more, do you have a different approach now that might not involve in-person stuff that, that you're looking at?

[00:17:11] Zack: I'm reaching out to the people who have expressed interest and we're getting started slowly. And I, I expect the, the first people who aren't Gravity Kit to be integrating trusted Login will be, uh, coming out in the next month or.

[00:17:23] Hmm. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited that that's finally happening because it's been three or four years in the making at this point. Yeah. Um, but we've already had multiple code audits for, from, uh, multiple security experts. I'm gonna have one more before having another, uh, before having third party people integrate it with, uh, our service.

[00:17:44] It's. , it's a great platform. I'm really . It's a, it's a really good service and our customer support team, whenever it's not available because we're upgrading the server or whatever they say, please bring it back. It makes our li You just click a link [00:18:00] in Help Scout and it logs you into the customer's website.

[00:18:03] Little did you know that in the background, there's a lot of. Uh, encryption, hha going on that makes that secure.

[00:18:09] Matt: I wanna shift to the broader WordPress, uh, conversation. And I'm gonna start with, I'm gonna start ranting about something that I've noticed and then I want you to come in and fill it in to see what, what your thoughts are.

[00:18:24] Cuz you're a lot more level-headed than I am about these, these topics. So the other day, I, I discovered, uh, a few different types. I guess they're being called Gutenberg page builders, and I'll try to keep this short. They're just some ran like I found three or four random products that are out there building their own page, building experience, and the product person in me says, why would you build out a whole new page building solution when we have full site editing coming to core?

[00:18:55] And when I say page building, I mean like the layout, the template. Maybe conditional stuff on a, on a page or something like that. And then they have patterns. And immediately I'm saying, wow, like how do these businesses sus, how will they sustain this? Um, wouldn't it be smarter to just stick to patterns, and like Gutenberg blocks versus having to build your own page, building experience, uh, because I see above them.

[00:19:25] Themes like Cadence, Bloy, and then above that we have the small, I'll say air quotes, smaller page builders like Divvy and Beaver and Divvy is pretty big, but Divvy and Beaver Builder. And then the other giant one, which is Elementor. . And then above that is the mothership, which is WordPress, Gutenberg, and full site editing.

[00:19:46] So I'm saying all of this because I see these layers and way at the bottom I see folks trying to recreate an experience of WordPress, which I think Mullenweg was really trying to solve with full site editing and blocks, um, and Gutenberg and all of this stuff. So that's a long way of getting to what, what are your thoughts on the experience of Word.

[00:20:07] are we headed in the right direction for people to build sites effectively and efficiently? And do you have any advice for people who might be getting into the game of themes and blocks and layouts and just your overall feeling on this, this whole WordPress landscape we're in?

[00:20:23] Zack: Yeah, it's quite the time we're in for, for WordPress and the changes that we're seeing are, uh, I think it shifts WordPress at a core level beyond.

[00:20:36] Um, I don't know that we are in, in a place where, uh, it's for the people that it was for 10 years ago and that that's a good thing and that's also a bad thing. But it feels like a generational shift where, uh, I'm one of the people who kind of pines for the good old. While seeing the benefits of the current, um, [00:21:00] you know, block Editor.

[00:21:00] The block editor is amazing. I love it. And full site editors incredible. I just, you know, took part in a 6.2 preview and it looks great. There's really good stuff going on and I no longer clearly know who WordPresses for. It seems that Squarespace and Wick. , uh, are the competitors now to, rather than a content management platform like Droople or Jummah, like those were the competitors to WordPress before and now it's do it yourself, build your own website thing.

[00:21:33] So I don't really understand, um, deeply what WordPress is anymore in a way that I feel like I could and did five years ago, and that's not a bad thing. I feel like there's still a lot of opportunity to provide value, especially for a niche, uh, uh, providers. Like if, if there's a page builder that can sustain itself and have a couple people working on it, and, uh, that does pretty much what Gutenberg does, but like a little bit differently than WordPress is big enough to support that.

[00:22:10] I don't think that that's necessarily a terrible idea, but I also don't think it's a long term, uh, growth market. But I really don't know what WordPress is pointing to when it's allowing so many people to do so much. Uh, it, it's a problem that we have a gravity kit as well. When we have, when we're able to provide everybody with so much functionality, it's hard to focus on a couple target markets.

[00:22:36] And I'm sure that the make team at WordPress has defined some targets for who, what they want to accomplish. And I haven't been tracking that. But, um, it definitely doesn't seem like the. Uh, the same customer base that they're targeting as it was a few years ago.

[00:22:54] Matt: I think years ago when we talked about when we, you know, started to see the rise of.

[00:23:00] let's say theme forest, let's go that far back. When you had theme forest, then it was just, that was the go to place to get premium themes. And then you had the rise of, of Avada theme and then a collection of other themes that, that didn't get a good wrap, uh, for good reason. Um, you know, across the, across the industry.

[00:23:18] And that's when you really started to see the fragmentation of WordPress experience, right? Because then you had all these end users who. In the WordPress boom where people are saying, Hey, go build a website, do it with WordPress. You had folks like you and me who are not only selling product, but were building websites, we're encouraging people to use it.

[00:23:40] And then that experience for the average user ended up being terrible . So they blamed WordPress. And then you started to have the rise of like true page builders. And I think. When Automatic or Matt and make team and, and core contributors all sat back and they looked at how do we make this experience better?

[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Um, this was the solution. Uh, but now I'm just seeing this. Rash is the best word. I have this rash of, uh, I, I get it. People have see this opportunity. They want to build it. They're developers, they're product makers. They like building this stuff, but it's, it's, it's just going back into a different experience of WordPress when they could just leverage and make full site editing better.

[00:24:25] I'm saying that as a non-developer too, so I don't know how easy that is, but that's how, if I were to build a product again, I would look at. as close to WordPress core as possible, because in my head, that's gonna make your life scale a little bit easier

[00:24:40] Zack: over time. It is, but I also feel for people trying to do that because how do you differentiate and Right.

[00:24:46] Uh, I'm a block maker. Okay. That's great. It's, uh, how do you get discovered? How do you express your value? Uh, I don't even know. I'm, I honestly don't know how people are getting. , uh, that to market. And I think that a lot of the solution so far has been you make some really good block libraries and then you get bought by a, a web host,

[00:25:13] I don't know what the next step is.

[00:25:15] Matt: Brad Williams had an interesting tweet the other day where he showcased the, uh, default view.

[00:25:21] This is along the same lines of WordPress experience, but the default view of, um, after you one click or whatever the five minute install of WordPress is, and you have your fresh site install and you're looking at, uh, the default theme. And it is not a great experience either. One of the things that I find so interesting is, is why do we continue to have, and I think we're gonna move into a direction where there's like this canvas theme, um, and that these things should be preloaded.

[00:25:49] But these themes should be preloaded to have a design implemented. And maybe somewhere along the journey people are selecting, I want a business site, I want a blog site, I want a recipe site. And at the end of your installation, that's what you see, you. Filler filler content, filler graphics, maybe through open verse.

[00:26:10] Um, and it's just laid out as the person wanted it from the beginning. I don't have a real solid question here, but it is sort of a moment where you look at the competition, wick and Squarespace, cuz I think you're absolutely right. That's the direction we're all headed in. We have to lean. That experience for the end user.

[00:26:30] What are your thoughts? I

[00:26:31] Zack: completely agree and I am, uh, trying not to say anything that will get me in trouble, but I think that might do that better than . So, full stop. Full stop. , I think it's a known problem that might not get solved is quickly because of that and, um, I don't know the internal workings of.

[00:26:57] Of the make team, but that seems like [00:27:00] a conflict that is going to be hard to overcome.

[00:27:06] Matt: Will we ever get to a a point where, again, kind of putting you in the hot seat , will we get to a point where we as a true marketplace or do you think that all roads lead for automatic and. Will say it again, and I've said it countless times, I have no problem with that.

[00:27:30] I think collectively we shouldn't have a problem with that because we should just draw, like, just show me the clear lines of where we're all headed and, and it will figure out how we slot in as a. Software providers, podcasters, theme makers, um, we'll figure it out. But let's not just keep it a gray area anymore.

[00:27:53] Just say you want as the best experience for WordPress. I get it. , just tell us and then let us figure out the rest and we'll, and because there's plenty I think to go around, but do you think all roads lead for the WordPress?

[00:28:10] Zack: I think, uh, either or is certainly, uh, going to be something that, I mean, that's what they've been trying to build, it feels like.

[00:28:18] And other hosts are trying to come up with their own platforms that have a unified solution for people. Um, I'm surprised there's not been more fragmentation, honestly. It feels like the setup experience, the admin dashboard. , um, these could be even more dramatically different than they are without breaking plugin integrations.

[00:28:40] And I, there was some, uh, like FritoLay demo back like 10 years ago when somebody did a headless FritoLay WordPress dashboard. Um, completely didn't look anything like WordPress. And, uh oh, I do remember that. Yep. Yeah, and it was really cool and I'm surprised that it's not become more of a thing to, to really customize WordPress and go far out there.

[00:29:05] Matt: Matt Mullenweg has said that he feels Gutenberg will be bigger than WordPress have. First question, have you heard him say that before? I have second question. What do you think it means?

[00:29:21] Zack: I think it means that, uh, it's also Tumblr,

[00:29:28] I like that. You know, he had a bigger vision than having Gutenberg be functional in WordPress. And, uh, Tumblr accomplishes that it's a lot more of the web using word, uh, using Gutenberg. But, um, I think it's unfortunate the, the block standards body or whatever the, that block, open block standard thing is, um, it doesn't seem like it's gonna be.

[00:29:49] Possible. But, um, I think that the funky way that Gutenberg was implemented with the H T M L comments, uh, system in like [00:30:00] behind the scenes is all H T M L comments. It's pretty wild for, uh, developer to look at that and say, yes, I want to implement that. Um, and I'm not, I'm speaking on some old data maybe, but like, that's, that seems like a strange.

[00:30:15] Thing. If I'm looking at implementing, uh, either open block standards or Gutenberg, I would be like, yeah, I probably want to go with something that's a little more, um, I don't know. It looks better . I don't, it just, it still feels weird to me, like to look at the code and see all the attributes and HTML comments wrapping each block and every time I make a little tweak the block.

[00:30:40] I just, uh, you know, when you go between code and, and live preview and, and, uh, you just want to add a style sh like, uh, declaration in your HTL tag and it says No, that's not available in this block attempt to recover.

[00:30:55] Matt: Well you mentioned Word camps before. Are you gonna go to Word Camp Us. I am,

[00:30:59] Zack: I'm planning on it. Cool.

[00:31:02] Matt: I, uh, I will be there as well. Um, looking

[00:31:05] Zack: forward to jumping outta cakes. ,

[00:31:08] Matt: Cool man. Um, where else can folks find you on the web to say

[00:31:12] Zack: thanks?

[00:31:13] Find me on Mastodon too. Me up . I'm, uh, at Zach and, uh, my, uh, team and I were talking about, um, getting Gravity Kit, a Gravity kit and Masteron. Do social and trust a login at masteron. Do social. So, uh, you know, let's, let's do a fe averse, uh, push. Come join us. It's really fun, .

[00:31:40] Matt: Fantastic.

[00:31:40] Which, uh, I, I'm assuming you, you're an iOS user. Which app do you use?

[00:31:45] Zack: Uh, I use Ivory, but I also have like six different installed and I, I like the web, uh, client for whenever I'm using it on my computer, cuz uh, I, I prefer doing social on my browser.

[00:31:58] Matt: Yeah, I'm using, um, ivory and I just installed Mammoth, which I guess is a newish.

[00:32:07] They

[00:32:07] Zack: feel really, it was really similar to Ivory. Yeah. Like it, it looks like they were trying to do the same thing. And I, I like, I like two with three o's. Uh, that's a good one. ,

[00:32:17] Matt: fantastic. Uh, fantastic. And the other web instance was, was it, what was it called? Elk.

[00:32:23] Zack: to try that out. Elk. And that looks like the Twitter, it's like the Twitter web ui.

[00:32:29] Um, before they, uh, changed that significant.

[00:32:35] Matt: Always a politician. Zach, Kat, Zack. Thanks for . Thanks for joining, uh, the show today. Everyone else, go to the wp to tune into this in your favorite, uh, podcast. Or say WordPress listener app. WordPress listener app, podcast, listening app, and the wp to join the mailing list for your favorite five minutes of WordPress News every Wednesday.[00:33:00]